the most and perhaps the only intelligent comment I have read re Hungary GP [Archive]

View Full Version : the most and perhaps the only intelligent comment I have read re Hungary GP

markabilly

7th August 2007, 18:29

Must read from top to bottom and take it as a whole rather the snippet, take it out of context quotes. Many LH's fans will not like it, even tho I think it be written by a Brit,

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3265_2642694,00.html

Overall who can disagree?

N. Jones

7th August 2007, 20:17

I read that and I must say - it is about time someone called LH on the things he has done.

Crypt

7th August 2007, 20:45

I knew after the first race that things at the Mac garage were going to deteriorate before the season was over. Fred's ego vs. Ron's pet "Tiger"...not a good combo. I'm suprised there hasn't been a fist fight yet :P

Robinho

7th August 2007, 21:48

not a bad piece at all, i hope this goes some way to discouraging the belief that just because you are British you have to defend/fanatacise about Lewis.

on the whole i've avoided the gutter press articles, although their was an excellent piece on Lewis and Fernando's rivalry in the Independent yesterday.

for what its worth, i am a big Lewis fan, primarily because he is a phenomonal talent, and to even be in the hunt of winning the WDC in his rookie season is quite an acheivement. its also great that he is a Brit, don't get me wrong, but i tire of constant allegations that people only support him because he's a Brit and he's black (i'm sure some do, but thats not all of us)

as for the conflict, its not the first, it won't be the last, and i'd rather have the problem of handling 2 of the worlds quickest and most competitive drivers than trying to get more from a middle of the road driver or a lazy or less talened one. it has been a big blow up, neither driver is without fault, this weekend or all season, but its not the end of the world.

lets not forget that to even get to F1 you have to be massivley confident in yourself and have a pretty large ego. You've been conditioned to beat everyone around you since you were 5, especialy your teamates, and perhaps for the 1st time your up against someone who is as good and as driven as you, and you want every edge you can get, in a team that reportedly offers no driver and advantage over the other.

take this into account and a bit of conflict is expected. the measure will be if one, or both driver can cope with it, even get over it and smooth things over, and if the team can continue at the top. i think all the "he said, she said" rubbish, the who will leave the team and when and will RD step down is a massive overreaction to what i see as a massivley competitive and combative situation, and very enjoyable, but then i am a McLaren, Lewis and Alonso fan, so i would say that wouldn't i? ;)

fandango

7th August 2007, 22:41

I agree with Robinho, even if he does play for Real F****** Madrid :)

N. Jones

8th August 2007, 00:25

Valve Bounce

8th August 2007, 00:52

Well, I am an Aussi, and a Super Aguri fan, and my grandmother was Spanish, so I can hardly be seen to favour a Pom. I already made the points in the link above although most may not have read my post, which I have no idea where it's embedded. Basically, I felt that the advantage gained by that one extra lap was not that great - it was more about Lewis Hamilton not showing respect to the 2XWDC, Team Leader, and more importantly going faster than Alonso all weekend.

That Lewis Hamilton did not accept a pre-arranged Q3 order, then repeatedly disobeyed direct orders from Ron Dennis and spoke to him in the crudest manner certainly inflamed the situation.

Having said that, holding Lewis Hamilton for the 20 seconds probably would have upset him to the extent that a final fast lap would have been in vain. BUT holding Lewis Hamilton for that extra 10 seconds in front of the entire Motorsport media and TV audience certainly did Alonso's image a helluva lot of harm. That he relied on his physio to do that last 10 second countdown made it even worse, and then all the lieing to the FIA Stweards afterwards made McLaren look really bad in the eyes of the world.

It really doesn't matter how many times Lewis Hamilton apologised to his team aftrwards, the damage done is irreparable between him and Alonso. Where this will lead to will be the subject for discussion here on the board for weeks to come until all teams' driver lineups are definitely and positively tied up for next year. Definitely one of these drivers will not be at McLaren next year if not sooner, and it is not inconceivable for both drivers to go elsewhere.

Mikeall

8th August 2007, 12:38

That article's spot on in my view, apart from the bit about the Hungarian Grand Prix in general. The race may not feature a lot of overtaking but it has seen a unusual amount of classic races that have gone down in history. Button's debut win in 2006, Alonso's debut win in 2003, Hill's debut win in 93, Michael Schumacher's win against the odds against both McLaren's in 98, Hill's near win in an Arrows Yamaha in 97, Boutsen's win in 1990 and Mansell's opportunistic pass on Senna to win in 89. Those are just the ones that spring to mind.

F1MAN2007

8th August 2007, 13:13

Balanced piece at least

Flat.tyres

8th August 2007, 15:49

I have to say it was a great summary and seemed to touch the current thinking in F1.

Lewis is ambitious but has to remember that it's a team that wins. if he thinks he is more important than the team, Ron will bring him back with a bang.

will Ron retire next year? who can say but he does look at his wits end with the pair of them.

555-04Q2

8th August 2007, 15:49

Very good article that hit most nails right on the head :up:

F1MAN2007

8th August 2007, 16:30

....Lewis is ambitious but has to remember that it's a team that wins. if he thinks he is more important than the team, Ron will bring him back with a bang....

From a close source in Italy (Ferrari) , the selfish, more important than the team, talent, his speed, arrogance, and all the adjectifs you can qualify him... all this are the reasons that Ferrari think now that the Kid is the best well placed to replace Schumacher with M, because they think Lewis has and behave exactly like MS.

The Big boss out there asked Jean Todt to do whatever is possible to get the kid for the next season. This is another strategy by Ferrari to challenge their rival on all front.

Flat.tyres

8th August 2007, 16:57

From a close source in Italy (Ferrari) , the selfish, more important than the team, talent, his speed, arrogance, and all the adjectifs you can qualify him... all this are the reasons that Ferrari think now that the Kid is the best well placed to replace Schumacher with M, because they think Lewis has and behave exactly like MS.

The Big boss out there asked Jean Todt to do whatever is possible to get the kid for the next season. This is another strategy by Ferrari to challenge their rival on all front.

it is natural for Ferrari to court him and I agree with your appraisal of a young MS. Lewis does differ somewhat from that perception though and is more the team player that Michael turned into during the Ferrari years.

it is very rare for Lewis to act in this manner but he is highly charged at the moment and Alonso has been winding him up all year. the difference between the 2 is not much in the way of talent but more in mental aptitude. Lewis is single minded, detirmined and focused where Alonso tends to whine more and be a bit spoilt. Lewis will make it happen for him or he'll take it where Alonso will moan until he gets his own way.

V12

8th August 2007, 20:45

To be honest, I'm rubbing my hands at this situation - while I usually back any English driver automatically, I haven't had the same enthusiasm for Hamilton and part of that is down to his upbringing - he has basically been conditioned and honed by McLaren since age 10 in contrast to the likes of Mansell and Hill who had to fight their way up the hard way - he appeared to have no natural flaws in his personality and basically came across as a pure racing machine with no human element.

This weekend saw the first real change in that - and yes I do think he was disrespectful to Dennis and bang out of line in what he said over the radio, and no I still wouldn't class myself as a Hamilton fan, but he made a real break from McLaren's way of thinking for the first time ever, and I believe from this point onwards we will really see what he is made of.

Ultimately many people hold the perception, myself included, that McLaren made him who he is today, and that his stunning start to his career is in part down to their nurturing and conditioning of him both before and after the start of his F1 career (an example being the "Please don't interview him on the starting grid" pleas to Brundle), if, as a result of this situation, he either finds himself elsewhere next year, or no longer enjoys the babying from his team that he has had to date, and continues to thrive, my respect for him will increase multiple-fold, if it ultimately leads to him achieving less, then he will be proved to have been wrong in his actions, and those who say he has been over-rated thus far will be proved right.

Mickey T

8th August 2007, 23:07

it is natural for Ferrari to court him and I agree with your appraisal of a young MS. Lewis does differ somewhat from that perception though and is more the team player that Michael turned into during the Ferrari years.

it is very rare for Lewis to act in this manner but he is highly charged at the moment and Alonso has been winding him up all year. the difference between the 2 is not much in the way of talent but more in mental aptitude. Lewis is single minded, detirmined and focused where Alonso tends to whine more and be a bit spoilt. Lewis will make it happen for him or he'll take it where Alonso will moan until he gets his own way.

the wise man said, it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

you know fernando's mind, do you? you know the man? doubt it. ever met him? if you had, you'd know that what you're describing is not really him at all. look at his comments in the spanish press. he describes the weekend's events as "surreal". hardly whining, is it?

Ever met Lewis? doubt that, too. Hard to give any of your quote credence, especially when you delve into it.

especially when you're talking about things not in Lewis's character. he bounced off the walls on at least five occasions in Monaco, was never going to get around Alonso at that track and still blew up and created an international incident when he was told to back off and preserve a comfortable team 1-2.

schumacher was a team player. 95 percent of the time, he was the quickest driver in the team and definitely the smartest, so the team was organised around him to deliver it the best results possible. for the team. which usually happened to coincide with what was best for MS, but that's the reality of being a professional driver in a professional team. Ferrari should make no apologies for it, except when they try to take the high moral ground on other issues and ignore their own quirks.

Lewis is a team player? he carried on like a pork chop after Monaco, was curiously silent after Alonso blew him away on sheer pace at Silverstone - a second a lap he never explained - and then created this storm on saturday. worse, he created it in a premeditated way, because he jumped to the head of the pitlane ahead of alonso. where it had worked in his favour before, it wasn't going to work in his favour this time, so it's pretty clear that he planned it this way all along.

that's not a team player. ignoring your team orders is not the work of a team player. ignoring them cold-bloodedly - and he clearly decided to ignore them before he left his garage, so he can't blame the heat-of-the-moment, kimi-was-too-close excuses that he has used (so he's also lied) - is not the mark of a team player.

you say it's very rare for Lewis to behave like this. i've always been taught that your ethics, morals and values mean nothing until the day they're inconvenient to maintain.

Lewis found such a day in Hungary, when he knew there was a good chance he wouldn't get pole in a race usually decided by pole, so it all went out the window to suit himself.

And to launch into Ron Dennis, after all Ron has risked on his behalf and all the mentoring and patience he's been shown, must be utterly gut wrenching for the boss. i don't care whether you like ron or not (i don't much), nobody deserves to cop this from somebody he's so closely involved with. As much as he's vexed about what occured, he must be heartbroken to be treated like that by somebody he's cared for over a decade behaving like a spoilt brat.

This is a fight Lewis started, and i don't believe he can claim he's been victimised when Alonso simply hit back after Lewis threw the first punch. Nor can his dad.

what mind games, by comparison, has Alonso been party to this season? Especially games that compare to Monaco and Hungary? The biggest mind game he played was to destroy Lewis on pace at his home Grand Prix. which is the right way to do it.

He's said - and i understand better than you how things can be taken out of context - that he didn't feel at home in an english team paired with an english driver who was a protege of the team boss. that's hardly whinging that he should be number one.

Rollo

9th August 2007, 01:35

schumacher was a team player. 95 percent of the time, he was the quickest driver in the team and definitely the smartest, so the team was organised around him to deliver it the best results possible. for the team. which usually happened to coincide with what was best for MS,

Schumacher cost Ferrari and in particular Irvine the driver's title in 1999 when despite posting fastest laps, and thus proving that he could have easily beaten Hakkinen, he threw the race so that in 2000 it would be him who won the first title for Ferrari in over 20 years.
He was most certainly NOT a team player, he played for Michael Schumacher and got results.

Lewis, I don't think is a team player either. From the get go he has been supremely quick and Hungary has shown that he has the utter ruthlessness and pure *******ry necessary to win World Championships.

Nice people finish nowhere in Formula One. Gerhard Berger, Stirling Moss, Mark Webber, David Coulthard, Michele Alboreto, etc. The pages of F1 is replete with genuinely nice people who may even win GP but who will never win a Championship.

For me, the most savage of *******ry is what wins titles. Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Sir Frank, Ron Dennis - between them they're responsible (if you don't double up) for 23 World Driver's Championships - that's staggering.

ottostreet

9th August 2007, 03:43

pits4me

9th August 2007, 04:44

So anyone go back and watch the replay of Q3? With Alonso off Hamilton's pace by almost .3 in Q2, how vulnerable was Hamilton to being relegated to 3rd behind Kimi if he let Alonso passed as the team ordrered? Did Alonso do anything to clear himself of Raikkonen? It didn't look like it. I got the sense FA knew if he could get in front of Lewis with Kimi in tow, it would better his chances at a 3rd WDC knowing Lewis may have a more difficult time getting a podium starting from P3. Going in to the race only two points down, he would be assured of either leaving Hungary even or two points up.

tinchote

9th August 2007, 05:31

Schumacher cost Ferrari and in particular Irvine the driver's title in 1999 when despite posting fastest laps, and thus proving that he could have easily beaten Hakkinen, he threw the race so that in 2000 it would be him who won the first title for Ferrari in over 20 years.
He was most certainly NOT a team player, he played for Michael Schumacher and got results.

That's not true, at least not in the way you put it. MS run the last two races of 99, in Malaysia he lead until he gave the victory to EI and finished second. In Suzuka, MH was first with MS second and EI a distant third. Even if MS passed MH, that was not enough for EI to win the WDC. So, what are you talking about?

he describes the weekend's events as "surreal". hardly whining, is it?

I would say that is whining big time.

Lewis is a team player? he carried on like a pork chop after Monaco, was curiously silent after Alonso blew him away on sheer pace at Silverstone - a second a lap he never explained - and then created this storm on saturday. worse, he created it in a premeditated way, because he jumped to the head of the pitlane ahead of alonso. where it had worked in his favour before, it wasn't going to work in his favour this time, so it's pretty clear that he planned it this way all along.

that's not a team player. ignoring your team orders is not the work of a team player. ignoring them cold-bloodedly - and he clearly decided to ignore them before he left his garage, so he can't blame the heat-of-the-moment, kimi-was-too-close excuses that he has used (so he's also lied) - is not the mark of a team player.

That's a typical example of your bias. Even RD has said that LH was first at the light before Q3 because his car was ready faster than FA's. So, he didn't "jump to the head of the pitlane ahead of Alonso". He went there when he was released by the team, and that was when his car was ready. Or are you saying that RD is lying on that, too? ;)

And to launch into Ron Dennis, after all Ron has risked on his behalf and all the mentoring and patience he's been shown, must be utterly gut wrenching for the boss. i don't care whether you like ron or not (i don't much), nobody deserves to cop this from somebody he's so closely involved with. As much as he's vexed about what occured, he must be heartbroken to be treated like that by somebody he's cared for over a decade behaving like a spoilt brat.

Isn't that romantic. RD is paying, to the leader of the WDC, about 1% (one per cent) of what he is paying to his teammate. I would say that's quite a good investment, and I wouldn't be so romantic about it.

Valve Bounce

9th August 2007, 07:59

Isn't that romantic. RD is paying, to the leader of the WDC, about 1% (one per cent) of what he is paying to his teammate. I would say that's quite a good investment, and I wouldn't be so romantic about it.

I don't want to split hairs, but I think he is actually getting 1.25% of what his team mate is getting.
:p :

wmcot

9th August 2007, 08:26

If RD wants to humble LH a bit, all he has to do is "loan" him to Spyker or Toro Rosso (or even Honda) for a season or two.

tinchote

9th August 2007, 08:55

I don't want to split hairs, but I think he is actually getting 1.25% of what his team mate is getting.
:p :

My bad ;) :D

Mickey T

9th August 2007, 09:56

Mickey T

9th August 2007, 10:13

I would say that is whining big time.

that's a typical example of your bias...

That's a typical example of your bias. Even RD has said that LH was first at the light before Q3 because his car was ready faster than FA's. So, he didn't "jump to the head of the pitlane ahead of Alonso". He went there when he was released by the team, and that was when his car was ready. Or are you saying that RD is lying on that, too? ;)

.

I disagree with your point of view, ergo i am bias? surely you can be more open minded than that. a "typical example" insists you have recognised a pattern of examples, so give me the links that prove this bias. And against whom have i displayed bias?

Perhaps i am just closer to the sport and more availed of the facts and machinations than you are, and am in a better position to help people try to understand what happened and why than somebody who simply watched it on TV and read a few websites afterwards...

RD and FA both said a lot of things after the session and, in hindsight, a lot of what they said seemed to be trying to cover for their rookie driver, so the press and the FIA didn't find out the real reason why they baulked him in the pitlane. If people didn't find out, then they just botched a pit stop, resettled the team back to its original qualifying plan and nobody's any the wiser.

I am cynical about everything in F1, and don't view Lewis Hamilton through rose-coloured glasses as the wide-eyed innocent who will save F1. He is a driver I first met five years ago.

did you expect Ron to just say that his protege disobeyed a team directive that he'd have been fully privvy to weeks of discussion over? please. The easiest way to explain why, instead of having lewis let fernando through in qualifying, they didn't just send alonso out of the garage first was exactly as ron explained. The temperature thing, however, doesn't hold water, especially if they sit at the end of the pitlane with their tyres getting cold and the fluids getting hot for another five minutes.

then for lewis to come out and say that he calmed down after Ron explained it to him was ludicrous. he would have needed nothing explained. He would have known all the possibilities all along.

Isn't that romantic. RD is paying, to the leader of the WDC, about 1% (one per cent) of what he is paying to his teammate. I would say that's quite a good investment, and I wouldn't be so romantic about it
.

romantic? doubt it. Just reality. To be turned on by somebody in this manner makes them look like an ungrateful little prig. Of course he's not on 1% of Alonso's money. My understanding is that he was on half a million quid, but that was renegotiated after the fourth GP of the year and it's now upwards of four.

even then, for a rookie, that's pretty good money.

your suggestion, then, is that if you had a boy working for you, and you'd mentored him and gifted him opportunities since he was 11 and you give him his break into the big leagues and then, in the only two times when things did't go his way, he launches a savage, vitriolic attack on you and the team you own, that you'd be OK with that.

Given the nature of your post when i had a contrary opinion to you, and you've never actually met me, much less mentored me, I really don't think so, somehow...

F1MAN2007

9th August 2007, 10:30

......And to launch into Ron Dennis, after all Ron has risked on his behalf and all the mentoring and patience he's been shown, must be utterly gut wrenching for the boss. i don't care whether you like ron or not (i don't much), nobody deserves to cop this from somebody he's so closely involved with. As much as he's vexed about what occured, he must be heartbroken to be treated like that by somebody he's cared for over a decade behaving like a spoilt brat...

RD didn't only support Lewis, RD had to support also his Daddy together with a brother of Lewis who have celebral problems. But the kid opted to ignore all this and F**** off his boss and mentor. :down:

BeansBeansBeans

9th August 2007, 10:38

RD didn't only support Lewis, RD had to support also his Daddy together with a brother of Lewis who have celebral problems. But the kid opted to ignore all this and F**** off his boss and mentor. :down:

Ron Dennis didn't have to support Lewis's father or brother - Anthony Hamilton is quite well-off and runs a very successful IT company.

As much as Ron supported Hamilton's career, let's not pretend that his motives were completely altruistic or that Hamilton is some sort of Charity case. He was the quickest thing around in karts, and Ron saw the chance to sign him up for the future. Plus, the amount McLaren and Mercedes spent on Lewis's pre-F1 career was certainly no more than, say, Red Bull spent on Klien or Renault on Kovalainen.

Mickey T

9th August 2007, 10:39

and does this sound like Alonso is whining about it? it's from a Sunday night interview with CNN...

Alonso said: "I guess he (Hamilton) will have a different relationship with the team in the next race, because I don't think they are very happy, and I will have the same one (relationship).

"What happened yesterday was something new for the team. Hamilton not listening, disobeying them, was something they hadn't experienced and I guess they wanted to make him see that.

"But anyway, in the next race, I guess everything will be back to normal and we will both try to win the race."

Asked if the sport's ruling body, the FIA, had been fair in stripping him of pole position and his team of their constructors' points, he said: "They should know. If they have penalized me, and the team, they must have a reason.

"But I repeat what I said before: it's the first time that a rule has been created out of the blue, since there's nothing written in the regulations about the time you take to make a pit-stop.

"Now they'll have to watch all teams closely and whoever takes a bit longer to end the pit-stop will have to be penalized."

Asked about the championship, he said he remained motivated to retain his title and would dismiss the furore of Budapest from his mind.

"These things happen in every sport, and also in F1, and it happened to me. But we have stop thinking about it. It's a new kind of penalty and that's it," he said.

BeansBeansBeans

9th August 2007, 10:40

Oh, and to use Lewis's brother's illness (Cerebral Palsy) as a weapon in this debate is highly distasteful in my opinion.

Mickey T

9th August 2007, 11:47

Plus, the amount McLaren and Mercedes spent on Lewis's pre-F1 career was certainly no more than, say, Red Bull spent on Klien or Renault on Kovalainen.

err, the money McLaren spent on Hamilton before F1 was quantum leaps higher than what the other junior programs spent. and lasted a lot longer.

F1MAN2007

9th August 2007, 11:51

Ron Dennis didn't have to support Lewis's father or brother - Anthony Hamilton is quite well-off and runs a very successful IT company.

As much as Ron supported Hamilton's career, let's not pretend that his motives were completely altruistic or that Hamilton is some sort of Charity case. He was the quickest thing around in karts, and Ron saw the chance to sign him up for the future. Plus, the amount McLaren and Mercedes spent on Lewis's pre-F1 career was certainly no more than, say, Red Bull spent on Klien or Renault on Kovalainen.

I told you that I will always support what I am saying here! :D

"Dennis's bond with the young Briton is unique. Hamilton has served a 10-year apprenticeship with McLaren, who introduced him to formula one at the start of this season, and he regards Dennis almost as a second father figure. Moreover the team has been notable in catering for his father Anthony and half-brother Nicolas, who suffers from cerebral palsy." (www.......co.uk (http://www.......co.uk))

Read more : http://sport.guardian.co.uk/motorsport/story/0,,2143131,00.html

Do you want more?

"Yet he (Anthony) readily admits that failed when it came to the crunch of penalising Lewis for lack of academic effort......"

"......although Ron always encouraged him to take it seriously and he also had a private tutor to help him keep up" (Anthony Hamilton)

"....That and all the support we've received from Ron Dennis and everybody at McLaren, of course. Now I'm just the proud Dad." (Anthony Hamilton)

BeansBeansBeans

9th August 2007, 11:56

Moreover the team has been notable in catering for his father Anthony and half-brother Nicolas, who suffers from cerebral palsy[/I][/B]." (www.......co.uk (http://www.......co.uk))

Clearly refers to the fact that Anthony and Nicolas are looked after by McLaren at meetings.

"....That and all the support we've received from Ron Dennis and everybody at McLaren, of course. Now I'm just the proud Dad." (Anthony Hamilton)

Clearly refers to the support given to Hamilton's career.

In no way did Ron Dennis 'support' Anthony and Nicolas Hamilton in the way you suggested.

F1MAN2007

9th August 2007, 12:09

...In no way did Ron Dennis 'support' Anthony and Nicolas Hamilton in the way you suggested.

That is good, can you tell me then in which way I have suggested?! :D

BeansBeansBeans

9th August 2007, 12:16

That is good, can you tell me then in which way I have suggested?! :D

"RD didn't only support Lewis, RD had to support also his Daddy together with a brother of Lewis who have celebral problems"

This comment made me think you were suggesting that Ron Dennis had to financially support Lewis's father and brother.

If I've misunderstood your point, then I apologise.

Flat.tyres

9th August 2007, 12:22

Ron Dennis didn't have to support Lewis's father or brother - Anthony Hamilton is quite well-off and runs a very successful IT company.

As much as Ron supported Hamilton's career, let's not pretend that his motives were completely altruistic or that Hamilton is some sort of Charity case. He was the quickest thing around in karts, and Ron saw the chance to sign him up for the future. Plus, the amount McLaren and Mercedes spent on Lewis's pre-F1 career was certainly no more than, say, Red Bull spent on Klien or Renault on Kovalainen.

thank you. I was actually spitting when I read that post from F1MAN.

Ron has been there from about the age of 10 advising Anthony and eventually sponsoring Lewis and mentoring him in his personal and professional development.

nobody is saying that Lewis is some sort of God. he makes mistakes, wrong decisions and says things in the heat of the moment that he might regret such as "Go Swivel". these are the exceptions rather than the rule though and Ron and Lewis will make it up again.

As for the preposterous idea that Ron went doleing out money to Ant and his family, I have never heard such a load of crap! he helped Lewis from a racing perspective and encouraged him to strive to achieve a balance between home, school and racing rather than just the racing itself but as Beans says, Anthony was a very sucessful business man and maintained a very sucessful family thank you very much. I also fail to see what possible relevance Nicholas's condition has in this context?

F1MAN2007

9th August 2007, 12:23

"RD didn't only support Lewis, RD had to support also his Daddy together with a brother of Lewis who have celebral problems"

This comment made me think you were suggesting that Ron Dennis had to financially support Lewis's father and brother.

If I've misunderstood your point, then I apologise.

I think support to someone doesn't always mean "Financial Support". And I didn't say financial support anywhere in my post.

Ok mate, I accept your apologises.

Flat.tyres

9th August 2007, 12:27

"......although Ron always encouraged him to take it seriously and he also had a private tutor to help him keep up" (Anthony Hamilton)

I think that Ron threatened not to support Lewis the next year and withdraw funding if he didnt knuckle down with his academic work as well. sorry, no link.

F1MAN2007

9th August 2007, 12:30

....As for the preposterous idea that Ron went doleing out money to Ant and his family, I have never heard such a load of crap! .....?

Cool down man, did I say "money" or "Financial Support" anywhere in my post? Or for you support always mean "Financial Support"

Please think a little bit and read and read again before to post or react on any post here. :D

BeansBeansBeans

9th August 2007, 12:31

Cool down man, did I say "money" or "Financial Support" anywhere in my post? Or for you support always mean "Financial Support"

Please think a little bit and read and read again before to post or react on any post here. :D

Incidentally, what exactly did you mean by 'support'?

F1MAN2007

9th August 2007, 12:52

Incidentally, what exactly did you mean by 'support'?

Why you apologised if you didn't undersatnd the meaning of the word "support"? :D

Here are some definitions:

1) Support : give moral or psychological support, aid, or courage to

2) Support : be behind; approve of

3) Support : the activity of providing for or maintaining by supplying
with necessities

4) Support : aiding the cause or policy or interests of

5) Support : something providing immaterial support or assistance to a
person or cause or interest

Hope one of these definitions will help you to understand what I meant in my post. :D

BeansBeansBeans

9th August 2007, 13:47

Why you apologised if you didn't undersatnd the meaning of the word "support"? :D

Here are some definitions:

1) Support : give moral or psychological support, aid, or courage to

2) Support : be behind; approve of

3) Support : the activity of providing for or maintaining by supplying
with necessities

4) Support : aiding the cause or policy or interests of

5) Support : something providing immaterial support or assistance to a
person or cause or interest

Hope one of these definitions will help you to understand what I meant in my post. :D

Okay, so there's a list of definitions. Can you tell me which one you were using in your post. If you say Ron had to support Anthony Hamilton and his brother, then what did you mean by support?

The fact that you're unwilling to answer the question suggests that you're backtracking.

Valve Bounce

9th August 2007, 14:20

This thread is supposed to be about:"the most and perhaps the only intelligent comment I have read re Hungary GP"

I think some of the guys here should lay off the Red Bull and have a glass of Kool Aid.

markabilly

9th August 2007, 14:24

that's a typical example of your bias...

I disagree with your point of view, ergo i am bias? surely you can be more open minded than that. a "typical example" insists you have recognised a pattern of examples, so give me the links that prove this bias. And against whom have i displayed bias?

Perhaps i am just closer to the sport and more availed of the facts and machinations than you are, and am in a better position to help people try to understand what happened and why than somebody who simply watched it on TV and read a few websites afterwards...

RD and FA both said a lot of things after the session and, in hindsight, a lot of what they said seemed to be trying to cover for their rookie driver, so the press and the FIA didn't find out the real reason why they baulked him in the pitlane. If people didn't find out, then they just botched a pit stop, resettled the team back to its original qualifying plan and nobody's any the wiser.

I am cynical about everything in F1, and don't view Lewis Hamilton through rose-coloured glasses as the wide-eyed innocent who will save F1. He is a driver I first met five years ago.

did you expect Ron to just say that his protege disobeyed a team directive that he'd have been fully privvy to weeks of discussion over? please. The easiest way to explain why, instead of having lewis let fernando through in qualifying, they didn't just send alonso out of the garage first was exactly as ron explained. The temperature thing, however, doesn't hold water, especially if they sit at the end of the pitlane with their tyres getting cold and the fluids getting hot for another five minutes.

then for lewis to come out and say that he calmed down after Ron explained it to him was ludicrous. he would have needed nothing explained. He would have known all the possibilities all along.

romantic? doubt it. Just reality. To be turned on by somebody in this manner makes them look like an ungrateful little prig. Of course he's not on 1% of Alonso's money. My understanding is that he was on half a million quid, but that was renegotiated after the fourth GP of the year and it's now upwards of four.

even then, for a rookie, that's pretty good money.

your suggestion, then, is that if you had a boy working for you, and you'd mentored him and gifted him opportunities since he was 11 and you give him his break into the big leagues and then, in the only two times when things did't go his way, he launches a savage, vitriolic attack on you and the team you own, that you'd be OK with that.

Given the nature of your post when i had a contrary opinion to you, and you've never actually met me, much less mentored me, I really don't think so, somehow...

Forgive him, he just has not done enough

:beer:
Me, I have a bit more respect from LH after watching the last race, despite losing all respect for him on Saturdayand quit calling him Hamie as everyone seemed to think it racist, when it ain't no different than calling RS as Ralfie or MS as Schuey, or JB, jennie....

AS to MS, never forget that no other driver by contract or presence had that much control over the team that no other driver in recent history of the last 20 years or so has possessed. He brought Todt and Brawn, they did not bring him

F1MAN2007

9th August 2007, 14:37

Okay, so there's a list of definitions. Can you tell me which one you were using in your post. If you say Ron had to support Anthony Hamilton and his brother, then what did you mean by support?

The fact that you're unwilling to answer the question suggests that you're backtracking.

Maybe it is very difficult to make you understand?! :D

Here is what I meant by support :

"....That and all the support we've received from Ron Dennis and everybody at McLaren, of course. ." (Anthony Hamilton)

If you still don't understand, please do contact Anthony he will be very kind to explain in detail what support he received from Ron Dennis and Mclaren.

But to help you a little bit to understand again, here is one of the support :

"......although Ron always encouraged him to take it seriously and he (RD) also had a private tutor to help him keep up" (Anthony Hamilton)

I would continue in detail, but some people here would say it is "crap" because they don't want to accept the truth. So let us keep it private and don't upset people. :D

Flat.tyres

9th August 2007, 18:04

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=320665#post320665)

it is natural for Ferrari to court him and I agree with your appraisal of a young MS. Lewis does differ somewhat from that perception though and is more the team player that Michael turned into during the Ferrari years.

it is very rare for Lewis to act in this manner but he is highly charged at the moment and Alonso has been winding him up all year. the difference between the 2 is not much in the way of talent but more in mental aptitude. Lewis is single minded, detirmined and focused where Alonso tends to whine more and be a bit spoilt. Lewis will make it happen for him or he'll take it where Alonso will moan until he gets his own way.
the wise man said, it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

don't be so hard on yourself. I would never call you a fool ;)

you know fernando's mind, do you? you know the man? doubt it. ever met him? if you had, you'd know that what you're describing is not really him at all. look at his comments in the spanish press. he describes the weekend's events as "surreal". hardly whining, is it?I have eyes and ears. Never met the man but he does moan a lot. Press cuttings are circumspect to interpretation but he has made a lot of them. With the surreal soundbite, it sounds more like gloating than whinging and trying to put the boot in. Both will bite him on the bum.

dont get me wrong, I like Freddie as a driver. I admire his skill and passion on track but christ on a bike, he does moan a bit off track. you know it, I know it. the word "surely" could have been invented for him and this from one of his admirers.

Ever met Lewis? doubt that, too. Hard to give any of your quote credence, especially when you delve into it.Im not one to name drop so make your own mind up from my responses.

especially when you're talking about things not in Lewis's character. he bounced off the walls on at least five occasions in Monaco, was never going to get around Alonso at that track and still blew up and created an international incident when he was told to back off and preserve a comfortable team 1-2.the kid is so enthusiastic in a car that I think he genuinly thought he could do it. of course, it would have ended in disaster but he would have pushed to the flag. all through his career, he has done things that arent sensible or even possible. he tends to rewrite the rules a bit but I agree, that he was p*ssed at backing off but it was the only option.

schumacher was a team player. 95 percent of the time, he was the quickest driver in the team and definitely the smartest, so the team was organised around him to deliver it the best results possible. for the team. which usually happened to coincide with what was best for MS, but that's the reality of being a professional driver in a professional team. Ferrari should make no apologies for it, except when they try to take the high moral ground on other issues and ignore their own quirks.100% :up:

Lewis is a team player? he carried on like a pork chop after Monaco, was curiously silent after Alonso blew him away on sheer pace at Silverstone - a second a lap he never explained - and then created this storm on saturday. worse, he created it in a premeditated way, because he jumped to the head of the pitlane ahead of alonso. where it had worked in his favour before, it wasn't going to work in his favour this time, so it's pretty clear that he planned it this way all along.

that's not a team player. ignoring your team orders is not the work of a team player. ignoring them cold-bloodedly - and he clearly decided to ignore them before he left his garage, so he can't blame the heat-of-the-moment, kimi-was-too-close excuses that he has used (so he's also lied) - is not the mark of a team player.
I dont know personally so cannot confirm or deny that he was calculating his exit from the pit. That is always controlled by the team and it looks like there was some cock-up. what happened on track was done on purpose in my opinion and he just plainly didnt want to let Alonso through. the Kimi thing was BS (again) in my opinion but the boy needs to learn that the team sometimes includes the team mate. As the lead, Alonso has demonstrated some bad leadership this year and is rattled so it may be understandable that Lewis took the opportunity to stick 2 fingers up but not forgivable and knowing Ron, Lewis is probably still feeling a bit abashed.

he was wrong, he's not perfect but who is?

you say it's very rare for Lewis to behave like this. i've always been taught that your ethics, morals and values mean nothing until the day they're inconvenient to maintain.

Lewis found such a day in Hungary, when he knew there was a good chance he wouldn't get pole in a race usually decided by pole, so it all went out the window to suit himself.hey, common man. be a bit fair here. He was taking the p*ss but lets not challenge his morals / ethics etc. you strike me a someone that knows a little about the game and I dont expect that sort of condemnation and assasignation of a driver from a player. Your not an ioan or a hendersen so dont act like one :( we can all remember drivers that have acted out of character, some worse. In fact, show me a driver that has never pulled a sneaky one.

And to launch into Ron Dennis, after all Ron has risked on his behalf and all the mentoring and patience he's been shown, must be utterly gut wrenching for the boss. i don't care whether you like ron or not (i don't much), nobody deserves to cop this from somebody he's so closely involved with. As much as he's vexed about what occured, he must be heartbroken to be treated like that by somebody he's cared for over a decade behaving like a spoilt brat.and I have said he needs to take a step back, remember who he was and is. it was said in the heat of battle and he is in the most high profile, high tension cauldron in the world. Mistakes happen? things are said in the heat of the moment arent they? Im the last to call him perfect and acknowledge his mistakes but lets keep in context.

This is a fight Lewis started, and i don't believe he can claim he's been victimised when Alonso simply hit back after Lewis threw the first punch. Nor can his dad.

this was started ages ago!!

what mind games, by comparison, has Alonso been party to this season? Especially games that compare to Monaco and Hungary? The biggest mind game he played was to destroy Lewis on pace at his home Grand Prix. which is the right way to do it.

He's said - and i understand better than you how things can be taken out of context - that he didn't feel at home in an english team paired with an english driver who was a protege of the team boss. that's hardly whinging that he should be number one.

come on chap. Freddie has been whinging about how unhappy he is with a team that favours Lewis even though thats crap. Ron had to call the dept heads together to give him that assurance because of Alonso's concerns. Its all in his head and hes just rattled because he thought he would walk it. lets be realistic shall we?

Lewis was out of order in not letting Freddie past. Im not 100% convinced that Freddie holding the box till the last second was not premeditated as that was a mighty close call that required split second driving on the part of a Physio but can never prove it so wont bother. There is a right royal fight thats not over yet but both drivers had better tow the line or find another drive.

markabilly

9th August 2007, 18:25

[quote="Flat.tyres"]

come on chap. Freddie has been whinging about how unhappy he is with a team that favours Lewis even though thats crap. Ron had to call the dept heads together to give him that assurance because of Alonso's concerns. Its all in his head and hes just rattled because he thought he would walk it. lets be realistic shall we?

quote]

Was this department head meeting before or after RD announced that half the field was composed of "useless drivers" and that LH had mclaren in his blood, and so on, while those "recycled" drivers............. :eek:

Yeah FA should have got warm and loving feelings right there.....FA really is an ingrate to not have immediately announced to the world, as a humble recyled driver, he is so proud to help LH win a world championship.......FA just needs some more Kool aid, and he will be fine... :rolleyes:

Flat.tyres

9th August 2007, 18:28

come on chap. Freddie has been whinging about how unhappy he is with a team that favours Lewis even though thats crap. Ron had to call the dept heads together to give him that assurance because of Alonso's concerns. Its all in his head and hes just rattled because he thought he would walk it. lets be realistic shall we?

quote]

Was this department head meeting before or after RD announced that half the field was composed of "useless drivers" and that LH had mclaren in his blood, and so on, while those "recycled" drivers............. :eek:

Yeah FA should have got warm and loving feelings right there.....FA really is an ingrate to not have immediately announced to the world, as a humble recyled driver, he is so proud to help LH win a world championship.......FA just needs some more Kool aid, and he will be fine... :rolleyes:

this was after about 3 races when it was obvious that Lewis wasnt going to be a whipping boy ala Coultard.

Robinho

9th August 2007, 21:16

so how much of the GP weekend events have been blown out of all proportion?

Apparently (and i know a number of people think RD doesn't lie all the time, only when his lips move! ;) ) Lewis and Alonso are still speaking, and are maintaining a professional respect for each other, even planning to meet up over the break, and secondly, there was no "F" word outburst between Lewis and Ron Dennis, presumably as they are confident this never happended, the radio conversations may be made available to the press to shut them up?

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40330

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40329

Mickey T

10th August 2007, 00:07

so how much of the GP weekend events have been blown out of all proportion?

pretty much all of it.

kid gets the team plan, kid doesn't like said game plan, kid ignores it, team/team mate catches kid ignoring it, team/team mate decide to make sure kid draws no advantage from ignoring it, team mate takes pole, kid still on front row. lesson learnt, once he'd calmed down.

then the carry on begins, with a a whole lot of being getting involved - the FIA - for no good reason.

the only reason i've banged on about it is, that if you read the daily papers in the UK, especially, that nasty spanish bloke did the dirty on our nice little brilliant rookie. in reality, the rookie had nobody to blame but himself.

Valve Bounce

10th August 2007, 00:55

so how much of the GP weekend events have been blown out of all proportion?

[/url]

I do know that one thing stood out during the weekend and that was the sight of Alonso squatting in the pits for that extra 10 seconds after the lollipop man raised his lollipop. This was shown live to the entire F1 audience around the world together withvery damning commentary from the ITV feed. Then the sight of Ron Dennis whipping his headphones off, and the frog marching Alonso's physio down the pit lane certainly left a lot to the imagination to invent all sorts of stories. Then there was the video on U-tube showing the Physio on the pitwall, and Alonso looking at him. It was suggested that the Physio was giving the extra countdown to Alonso. It didn't look good at all.

I think, and I have already said this elsewhere, had Alonso not waited those extra 10 seconds, Lewis Hamilton may have been so flustered that he would not have bettered Alonso's last hot lap when he would have made the Q3 cut off by around 6 or so seconds for that last hot lap. The FIA would not have been brought into the fray, Alonso had at least an even chance if not better to win the race, and Ron Dennis would have collected the trophy on the podium together with 18 points.

One could say, in hindsight, that Alonso was too clever by half. Who knows. I don't know the two drivers, I don't know Ron Dennis, and I am not privy to any of the teams' radio conversations. All I know is what I saw and heard on the telly and the internet.

Blown up? Well, we must appreciate this is a discussion forum, and nearly all of us are not that intimately related to teams and officials. We see and read what is in the media and come here to discuss our opinions. If we all made sure that what we say is 100% correct before we post anything here, this forum would not exist.

I like to come here and have some fun. I enjoy this forum greatly. I hope the rest of the guys who come here have fun like I do when they post here.

markabilly

10th August 2007, 01:17

I do know that one thing stood out during the weekend and that was the sight of Alonso squatting in the pits for.........

Blown up? Well, we must appreciate this is a discussion forum, and nearly all of us are not that intimately related to teams and officials. We see and read what is in the media and come here to discuss our opinions. If we all made sure that what we say is 100% correct before we post anything here, this forum would not exist.

I like to come here and have some fun. I enjoy this forum greatly. I hope the rest of the guys who come here have fun like I do when they post here.

Before the high alter of F1, you dare say such heresy...what you need is a good banning and much Kool aid, though you sing so many praises of the chosen son of RD, i am surprized........ :eek:

Actually you seem to be WAY TOO SERIOUS, regarding an activity that always was, is and will be entertainment for the walter mittys of this world, boys with toys and the revenue of Bernie enerni.......

F1MAN2007

10th August 2007, 04:24

There is a say in UK :

"They bring you up to knock you down".

Valve Bounce

10th August 2007, 04:42

There is a say in UK :

"They bring you up to knock you down".

Are you sure that wasn't in DIE HARD :p :

Rollo

10th August 2007, 06:10

In Suzuka, MH was first with MS second and EI a distant third. Even if MS passed MH, that was not enough for EI to win the WDC. So, what are you talking about?

Actually, it was. Points in 1999 were awarded 10, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1.
If Schumacher had passed Hakkinen the points would have fallen:
Schumacher 10
Hakkinen 6
Irvine 4

Points before the race were:
Hakkinen 66
Irvine 70
& Schumacher was well out of contention so we don't need to include him.

If you add the points that would have been alloted then it now reads:
Irvine 74 (because he still would have got 4 points for coming in 3rd)
Hakkinen 72 (6 points for coming in 2nd because Schumacher would have won)

I implore you to get a copy of that race. Schumacher's car on race day was always capable of winning that race (he proved that with 6 fastest laps towards the end); certainly the driver was. Not to take away from Hakkinen's WDC (because he was/is a brilliant driver) but Schumacher knew exactly what he was doing. Remember running into people to win Championships was not beneath him; so being slow in a race was simple.

Would you have wanted Irvine to be the first driver in over 20 years to win a WDC in a Ferrari? If you were Schumacher most definately not.

tinchote

10th August 2007, 06:41

Actually, it was. Points in 1999 were awarded 10, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1.

(...)

I implore you to get a copy of that race. Schumacher's car on race day was always capable of winning that race (he proved that with 6 fastest laps towards the end); certainly the driver was. Not to take away from Hakkinen's WDC (because he was/is a brilliant driver) but Schumacher knew exactly what he was doing. Remember running into people to win Championships was not beneath him; so being slow in a race was simple.

Would you have wanted Irvine to be the first driver in over 20 years to win a WDC in a Ferrari? If you were Schumacher most definately not.

My bad (memory ;) ). My recollection of the race is that I didn't see any chance of MS passing MH. I remember that he drove a very solid race. But I also see that it is perfectly possible for MS not to be dying for EI to win the WDC. After all, Irvine finished that race almost a lap down.

Valve Bounce

10th August 2007, 07:04

My bad (memory ;) ). My recollection of the race is that I didn't see any chance of MS passing MH. I remember that he drove a very solid race. But I also see that it is perfectly possible for MS not to be dying for EI to win the WDC. After all, Irvine finished that race almost a lap down.

I don't remember that race at all. :(

Flat.tyres

10th August 2007, 10:42

I don't remember that race at all. :(

Rollo is quite correct. EI would have won the WDC if MS had of passed MH. I have no doubt that MS could have caught and passed MH but was content to sit in second.

if I remember correctly, earlier in the year, EI had played second fiddle to Schumy which if they had raced, ala McLaren, would have ment EI would have won although it must be added that poor old dillusional Eddie would never have won the championship in a straight fight with MS so the end result with mika winning was probably fairest in the end.

555-04Q2

10th August 2007, 10:51

I don't remember that race at all. :(

I'm surprised you remember your way onto this forum everyday ;)

Valve Bounce

10th August 2007, 14:28

I'm surprised you remember your way onto this forum everyday ;)

I have a bookmark. :)
Sometimes I forget :(

When you get to my age, you will also forget. :(

P.S. I just checked the dates, and I don't think I saw that race nor the preceding one. I had just sold my house in NSW and was travelling to Qld. during that time. I think :confused:

555-04Q2

10th August 2007, 14:36

When you get to my age, you will also forget. :(

I dont think I'll make 90 mate ;) :p : :D

ArrowsFA1

10th August 2007, 14:45

He brought Todt and Brawn, they did not bring him
I'd check your facts again.

markabilly

10th August 2007, 15:04

I'd check your facts again.

true, Ferrari signed MS at Todt's urging and in the process, gave MS unmatched control over the team, and MS brought Brawn and Byrne.

If MS had wanted Todt gone, like some other folks at Ferrari who were there at the time, Todt would have been gone.

MS played it such that he pretended to be only a driver for various reasons, but as is the case with great leaders, freely handed out praise, choose his subordinates well, empowered them, listened and followed their advice.

In the process, he took a team that was not much different than Toro Rosso or Honda is now, and turned it into a powerhouse, not merely by his driving, but even more so by his leadership

(and while I am not an MS fan, I am forced to give the devil what he is due....)

donKey jote

10th August 2007, 20:59

Then there was the video on U-tube showing the Physio on the pitwall, and Alonso looking at him. It was suggested that the Physio was giving the extra countdown to Alonso. It didn't look good at all.

Valve, while I agree the 10 seconds didn't look good, please make the effort to look at that video again:
3 seconds before he moved, Alonso looked 10 or 11 o'clock towards the pitwall, albeit thorugh a barrier of pit crew members. If you see the U-tube from RTL, they circle what they say is his physio, but the circle is behind Alonso's car. The only way he could have seen anyone in the circle is through his mirror or through the back of his head, providing he could tunnel vision through the crew members.
If that was his physio in the RTL-U-tube, the only way he could have signalled anything to Alonso was via radio.

donKey jote

10th August 2007, 21:04

Lewis's character. he bounced off the walls on at least five occasions in Monaco, was never going to get around Alonso at that track and still blew up and created an international incident when he was told to back off and preserve a comfortable team 1-2.

schumacher was a team player. 95 percent of the time, he was the quickest driver in the team and definitely the smartest, so the team was organised around him to deliver it the best results possible. for the team. which usually happened to coincide with what was best for MS, but that's the reality of being a professional driver in a professional team. Ferrari should make no apologies for it, except when they try to take the high moral ground on other issues and ignore their own quirks.

Lewis is a team player? he carried on like a pork chop after Monaco, was curiously silent after Alonso blew him away on sheer pace at Silverstone - a second a lap he never explained - and then created this storm on saturday. worse, he created it in a premeditated way, because he jumped to the head of the pitlane ahead of alonso. where it had worked in his favour before, it wasn't going to work in his favour this time, so it's pretty clear that he planned it this way all along.

that's not a team player. ignoring your team orders is not the work of a team player. ignoring them cold-bloodedly - and he clearly decided to ignore them before he left his garage, so he can't blame the heat-of-the-moment, kimi-was-too-close excuses that he has used (so he's also lied) - is not the mark of a team player.

you say it's very rare for Lewis to behave like this. i've always been taught that your ethics, morals and values mean nothing until the day they're inconvenient to maintain.

Lewis found such a day in Hungary, when he knew there was a good chance he wouldn't get pole in a race usually decided by pole, so it all went out the window to suit himself.

And to launch into Ron Dennis, after all Ron has risked on his behalf and all the mentoring and patience he's been shown, must be utterly gut wrenching for the boss. i don't care whether you like ron or not (i don't much), nobody deserves to cop this from somebody he's so closely involved with. As much as he's vexed about what occured, he must be heartbroken to be treated like that by somebody he's cared for over a decade behaving like a spoilt brat.

This is a fight Lewis started, and i don't believe he can claim he's been victimised when Alonso simply hit back after Lewis threw the first punch. Nor can his dad.

what mind games, by comparison, has Alonso been party to this season? Especially games that compare to Monaco and Hungary? The biggest mind game he played was to destroy Lewis on pace at his home Grand Prix. which is the right way to do it.

He's said - and i understand better than you how things can be taken out of context - that he didn't feel at home in an english team paired with an english driver who was a protege of the team boss. that's hardly whinging that he should be number one.

finally some words of wisdom :up: :up:

Valve Bounce

10th August 2007, 21:29

Valve, while I agree the 10 seconds didn't look good, please make the effort to look at that video again:
3 seconds before he moved, Alonso looked 10 or 11 o'clock towards the pitwall, albeit thorugh a barrier of pit crew members. If you see the U-tube from RTL, they circle what they say is his physio, but the circle is behind Alonso's car. The only way he could have seen anyone in the circle is through his mirror or through the back of his head, providing he could tunnel vision through the crew members.
If that was his physio in the RTL-U-tube, the only way he could have signalled anything to Alonso was via radio.

I've lost the link :(

donKey jote

10th August 2007, 22:42

so have I :(
donkeydarco posted the link on the forums and it's gone :D
I'll see if I can find some other ones before they go too :)

Spoonbender

11th August 2007, 00:01

Tit for tat.
As a father of four, you show dis-respect, you have to be taught a lesson.
These Drivers love to tell us that a race that has been run is old news, and they just concentrate on the next one, let's wait and see.
I recon a three week break will sort out most of the issues.
The point both drivers made was that with only 5 races to go, who-ever was leading at the end would probably be the one the team would put their weight behind. I feel that was what Hungary was all about..... Agree??

Valve Bounce

11th August 2007, 00:45

Tit for tat.
The point both drivers made was that with only 5 races to go, who-ever was leading at the end would probably be the one the team would put their weight behind. I feel that was what Hungary was all about..... Agree??

NO!! :p :

tinchote

11th August 2007, 05:09

Rollo is quite correct. EI would have won the WDC if MS had of passed MH. I have no doubt that MS could have caught and passed MH but was content to sit in second.

if I remember correctly, earlier in the year, EI had played second fiddle to Schumy which if they had raced, ala McLaren, would have ment EI would have won although it must be added that poor old dillusional Eddie would never have won the championship in a straight fight with MS so the end result with mika winning was probably fairest in the end.

I kind of agree with your comment. Although I struggle to remember a case of EI yielding to MS in 99, some MS hater will probably remind me ;) :p :

On the other hand, Irvine was given the race at Hockenheim by Salo and at Malaysia by MS.

In any case, I'm interested to see what MH's fans have to say about the idea that MS "allowed" MH to win in 99 :D

jso1985

11th August 2007, 21:28

In any case, I'm interested to see what MH's fans have to say about the idea that MS "allowed" MH to win in 99 :D

proves Schumacher always wanted to be part of the McLaren team but never got the real chance to fulfill his dream :p : poor Schumi :(

Spoonbender

11th August 2007, 22:28

NO!! :p :

MMmmmmmm, you dissagreeing with me, or was I stating the bleeding obvious ??

Ranger

12th August 2007, 08:42

In the process, he took a team that was not much different than Toro Rosso or Honda is now, and turned it into a powerhouse,

For sure he was a great team mover, but that comparison is more than a little dumb. Ferrari in 1996 was more like BMW is in 2007, although looking pretty painfully more stagnant.

That P-F1 article hit the nail on the head, and despite touches of bias and arrogance that is sometimes in their analyses, they tend to be pretty reasoned - I like them.

Valve Bounce

12th August 2007, 10:15

MMmmmmmm, you dissagreeing with me, or was I stating the bleeding obvious ??

NO!!