Mclaren cleared....for now *merged*

[Valve Bounce]

I hope to God that some of you never end up on a jury or in the legal profession.


Me too :(

[Ranger]

Flavio should have no credibility in this debate and his input on this issue should not be taken seriously.

It was he who similarly (and definitely moreso) got away with murder with the illegal fuel rigs and electronics in 1994 - something that was pretty blatant to everyone at the time and walked away stott-free along with the rest of the Benetton team in 1994 and ended up winning the title with Schumacher. (read Ioan's Autosport forum link... quite a read)

For him to say that it is incomprehensible that McLaren are walking free is highly hypocritical and ignorant of his own past.

[raphael123]

That is BS. He kept his wins. Why the hell would I want to discuss this with you via PM's? The facts are the guy lied, and he kept his wins after he was "punished" by what? That he didn't want to come second by ramming some other guy? If you want to discuss this, post your remarks here so it can come under the scrutiny of all forum members, including Ferrari supporters.

I am sure SchM was happy not to be banned from subsequent races in te following year. Tell me otherwise.

Spot on Valve :)

[raphael123]

I know you don't like Ferrari, I also know you don't like us Ferrari fans around here.
If however you consider yourself a correct person read the articles in the following links before making any further comments. It's all in there:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61180

http://forums.autosport.com/showthread.php?postid=1294222

It's a long read, but you might understand why Bernie and the FIA wanted and managed not to punish Benetton in 1994 and McLaren now even though both teams pleaded guilty for the charges brought on them.

I'm not a Ferrari fan as I don't like the way they go about their business, but the departure of Michael Schumacher has lessened my feelings. As for Ferrari fans, I would be disappointed if they weren't here :)

Cheers for the links.

My take on the situation is quite simple. If McLaren used the documents then they should be punished. If only Mike used them, and McLaren haven't used them, the punishment they have recieved is just.

[raphael123]

Of course, but IMHO Ferrari are making statements that are very selective in their content.

I repeat once again, if Ferrari have evidence that McLaren as a team (as opposed to Coughlan the individual) had knowledge of, and used, the Ferrari documents prior to the 3rd July then produce it. So far they have not done so, and yet they continue to make public statements that damage McLaren and F1 as a whole.

No they're not reality ioan. Ferrari repeatedly imply that McLaren knew about what Coughlan was doing, but this only came to McLaren's attention when they were made aware of Ferrari's legal action and carried out their own investigation on the 3rd July.

The FIA hearing has shown that there is no evidence that McLaren were, at any point, cheating. However, the FIA did say that if evidence comes to light that changes this judgement then McLaren will be penalised. All Ferrari need to do is back up their allegations. Why can't or won't they?

If Coughlan was working with Stepney with a view to moving to Honda then why would he share Ferrari information with anyone at McLaren. Why hand over (presumably) valuable information to Honda's rivals?

Ferrari did not knock on Ron's door and say "do you know what one of your employees has been up to". They took legal action against Coughlan and from that point it was obvious that McLaren would become aware of the situation.

Sorry, but IMHO right from the beginning of this Ferrari have sought to implicate McLaren in something that began with one of their employees at every opportunity. Of course I can understand the assumption that as a McLaren employee had possession of Ferrari documents then the whole team must have known about them. But that is an assumption, and one that ignores many other questions that are yet to be answered.

Nicely said! :)

You can't punish McLaren severely like some of you want on an 'assumption' Coughlan showed the document to everyone.
He says he has, but he's not exactly the most trustworthy person around is he!?!

[Valve Bounce]

Valve, I've asked to keep MS off this thread...

OK, OK!! On bended knees, I say I'm sorry. :( From now on, I'll keep my comments strictly on Elvis!!

[ioan]

Flavio should have no credibility in this debate and his input on this issue should not be taken seriously.

Being an outsider in this case he has far more credibility than Ron.

In your opinion neither Briatore nor Todt should have credibility, however Ron should, as should Bernie and the FIA, just because they didn't punish McLaren and implicitly Alonso and Hamilton.
Or maybe Jean Todt should, like Rony boy, shed a few tears at every press conference and influence all the pussies around here, instead of making things public.

I could leave with not being interfered with the championship standings for the sake of the sport, but a hefty fine should be handed out to McLaren for the way they acted in this case.

[ioan]

Nicely said! :)

You can't punish McLaren severely like some of you want on an 'assumption' Coughlan showed the document to everyone.
He says he has, but he's not exactly the most trustworthy person around is he!?!

Who asked for a severe punishment?
Any punishment would have been OK, even a fine.

Imagine you tell your kid that he is at fault because he broke the neighbor's window with the ball, but the next moment you buy him a new ball and let him start again. Do you think he understood that he was at fault? I highly doubt it.

[akv89]

The facts are the guy lied, and he kept his wins after he was "punished" by what? That he didn't want to come second by ramming some other guy? If you want to discuss this, post your remarks here so it can come under the scrutiny of all forum members, including Ferrari supporters.

I am sure SchM was happy not to be banned from subsequent races in te following year. Tell me otherwise.

Why should he have lost his wins? He earned them by winning each one of them at individual events. There was no cheating involved when he won those races was there? He shouldn't lose those wins because of one moment of stupidity in another race. You seem to want to punish people purely on how much it hurts them. Schumacher cheated in order to win the championship, therefore as punishment he would be removed from it. I don't know if he was fined any amount of money, but I think he should have been fined as well.

Why the hell would I want to discuss this with you via PM's? Because it seems like the wrong thread to argue about this.

EDIT: Sorry pino, I just read your post

[akv89]

So what percentage of individuals on a team have to see the illegal documents before it becomes a TEAM problem? 1%? 10%? 50%? 100%?
As i already said, it becomes a team problem when it is proven that the team has used the acquired intelligence in any way.

[jas123f1]

BTW: When asked what people are thinkin of the FIA desicion:

Do you agree with the FIA's decision not to punish McLaren?

Yes 32.02%
No 62.50%
Don't know 5.48%

http://www.formula1.com
-----------------------------------

Do you agree with the FIA's verdict?

Yes 32.73 % (4286)
No 67.27 % (8810)

http://www.itv-f1.com/Home.aspx
-----------------------------------

[Bagwan]

BTW: When asked what people are thinkin of the FIA desicion:

Do you agree with the FIA's decision not to punish McLaren?

Yes 32.02%
No 62.50%
Don't know 5.48%

http://www.formula1.com
-----------------------------------

Do you agree with the FIA's verdict?

Yes 32.73 % (4286)
No 67.27 % (8810)

http://www.itv-f1.com/Home.aspx
-----------------------------------


So , with over 13,000 polled , ITV , a British broadcaster , has 67.27% thinking the decision is faulted .

This should be a clear message to the FIA that this issue is not over .
Ferrari will have the majority of viewers the world over , if the British are against a British team on this point .

They will have a field day , should evidence come to light .

This could have been put to rest already , had they been fined .
As it is , it's a big black cloud .

[ioan]

This could have been put to rest already , had they been fined .


Rightly so.

[jas123f1]

So , with over 13,000 polled , ITV , a British broadcaster , has 67.27% thinking the decision is faulted .

This should be a clear message to the FIA that this issue is not over .
Ferrari will have the majority of viewers the world over , if the British are against a British team on this point .

They will have a field day , should evidence come to light .

This could have been put to rest already , had they been fined .
As it is , it's a big black cloud .

Yes, this is a message to FIA and they know it very well.
But how can they solve it?

Ok, one way could be that Max retire's to the pension he has so well deserved and after that FIA can take a new decision, this time according to the rules FIA have to use in cases like that. :)

[ojciec dyrektor]

The FIA rules were posted in this thread, those rules state that a team is responsible for the actions of their employees!
How many times should this be posted until some of you take into account the rules?


Ioan, let's imagine hypothetical situation.
There's team A and B. Team A is first in standings. Team B second.
How much money is worth WDC od WCC? And how much money You need to pay to one man, ie. chief designer from team A which is not satisfied with his job? So, chief designer A did something wrong, against the rules.
Please tell me. What kind of punishment deserves team A? They didn't know about nothing, but it was team A's chief designer.

In McLaren situation, they were found guilty, because Coughlan was their employee. But he did it alone. There is no proof that somebody else had seen this documets. There is no proof that anything from that documents was used.

I understand we can have different opinion in that case but tell me what kind of punishment would be fair?

[gm99]

So , with over 13,000 polled , ITV , a British broadcaster , has 67.27% thinking the decision is faulted .

This should be a clear message to the FIA that this issue is not over .
Ferrari will have the majority of viewers the world over , if the British are against a British team on this point .

They will have a field day , should evidence come to light .

This could have been put to rest already , had they been fined .
As it is , it's a big black cloud .

It has to be noted, however, that with the way the question is phrased at the ITV website, the results are less conclusive than on f1.com.

After all, people might disagree with the verdict for two reasons:
Either because they do not think McLaren should have been found guilty at all or because they think McLaren should have been punished as well.

[F1MAN2007]

Can we say that Ferrari is the Innocent and perfect team out there?!

Do we forget right now all what Master Cheater (MS) did in last 10 years with Ferrari? Neither him nor Ferrari did get any punishment?

Hope you read already what said by Mika Salo (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61190)

And now because of single issue without any strong evidence they become cynical as in the last 10 years?!

I think this year there is a lot of suprise in F1 and I am sure still more will come. But what I can say, now the sport is no longer the sport, but it is business and when it comes the time to take big decision, you have to balance everything otherwise you lose everything particularly when it involves huge millions of money.

Similar cases with different Sport Body :

1)Case of Carlos Tevez involving FIFA, FA (British Football Body), West Ham, Manchester and his agent.

2) Tour de France : can't say more on this as anyone may be aware what is going around with the Tour and Drugs (doping)

3) Italian football : Win the Champion's League even on conviction of corruption! and here don't forget where Ferrari belongs as well

4) Cricket : Pakistanis abandoned a Test match and escape significant punishment,


Spying will never stop in the sport, particularly in motorsport, and I am sure Ferrari is not clean and the fair player out there. Maybe this time they are suprised that the power they used to manipulate everything in the past is no longer there and now they are moaning.

[Ian McC]

So , with over 13,000 polled , ITV , a British broadcaster , has 67.27% thinking the decision is faulted .

This should be a clear message to the FIA that this issue is not over .
Ferrari will have the majority of viewers the world over , if the British are against a British team on this point .

They will have a field day , should evidence come to light .

This could have been put to rest already , had they been fined .
As it is , it's a big black cloud .

Well it still remains that the facts have not been released therefore no-one knows exactly what was said.

I don't think mob rule is going to make a difference.

[Ian McC]

In your opinion neither Briatore nor Todt should have credibility, however Ron should, as should Bernie and the FIA, just because they didn't punish McLaren and implicitly Alonso and Hamilton.


In his post he questioned Flavs credibility, he didn't mention any of the others. As usual you are putting words in peoples mouths.

[markabilly]

The standard that they announced is: Did Mclaren benefit from the cheating? .

If that is to be the standard, then there is NO EVIDENCE to support finding that Mclaren's cars became faster.

To prove this, it would require an investigation of the cars involved and careful examination of the data and changes made to the Mclaren to show a direct correlation between data and car to show whether such a benefit occurred...that never ever happened.... and since it did NOT, then one can really say there is no evidence that the McLaren got faster as a result of the use of stolen data.

Indeed such a meaningful investigation would have been impossible, since that would require the cars in their exact "pre-cheat" condition, with a comparison of post cheat condition(s), in comparsion to the actual stolen data.

As Denzel Washington said repeatedly in Training Day, it ain't what you know, but what can you prove...if that is going to be the standard for a penalty to be invoked for possesion of stolen data is that one must prove changes made to the car and the car got faster by use of the data, then a thorough inspection, analysis and testing of the cars is absolutely mandatory...otherwise one can never prove it, and even with such an inspection, one would need the cars in their pre-cheat state and post-cheat state intact for such investiagtion to determine the changes and the effect of the changes---impossible in the absence of a confession of the cuprit--(and is the accused likely to confess with 100s of millions of dollars at stake,hahahah)!!!

well, apply that standard to the presence of drugs in a bike rider's body, that the rider actually benefitted from the drugs, then the winner last year of the Tour de France could have never been stripped of his title and all the stuff on the current Tour currently going on, is COMPLETELY without evidentiary support because there is no proof that these substances actually made any particular rider faster on those particular occaisions compared to how fast he would have been, if the substances had not been there. Proof would have to be based on actual testing of performance of that particular individualon "game day"--well how can one possibly do a controlled test on that day of that day's event w/o drugs by that rider compared to that rider with drugs, when the drugs are already present...something that would be impossible :s mokin:

Since it ain't what you know, but what can you prove...So establish a standard that is impossible to prove (ie actual benefit in terms of car performance), logic dictates the result must follow absolutely, and NO EVIDENCE of benefit equals no punishment....(I am sure there are some riders wishin that was the standard for bike racing...hey I may have taken some streiods but they can not prove that my actual perfomance would not have been the same w/o the drugs, those drugs did not help me at all...) :rolleyes:

[akv89]

The standard that they announced is: Did Mclaren benefit from the cheating? .

If that is to be the standard, then there is NO EVIDENCE to support finding that Mclaren's cars became faster.

To prove this, it would require an investigation of the cars involved and careful examination of the data and changes made to the Mclaren to show a direct correlation between data and car to show whether such a benefit occurred...that never ever happened.... and since it did NOT, then one can really say there is no evidence that the McLaren got faster as a result of the use of stolen data.

Indeed such a meaningful investigation would have been impossible, since that would require the cars in their exact "pre-cheat" condition, with a comparison of post cheat condition(s), in comparsion to the actual stolen data.

As Denzel Washington said repeatedly in Training Day, it ain't what you know, but what can you prove...if that is going to be the standard for a penalty to be invoked for possesion of stolen data is that one must prove changes made to the car and the car got faster by use of the data, then a thorough inspection, analysis and testing of the cars is absolutely mandatory...otherwise one can never prove it, and even with such an inspection, one would need the cars in their pre-cheat state and post-cheat state intact for such investiagtion to determine the changes and the effect of the changes---impossible in the absence of a confession of the cuprit--(and is the accused likely to confess with 100s of millions of dollars at stake,hahahah)!!!

well, apply that standard to the presence of drugs in a bike rider's body, that the rider actually benefitted from the drugs, then the winner last year of the Tour de France could have never been stripped of his title and all the stuff on the current Tour currently going on, is COMPLETELY without evidentiary support because there is no proof that these substances actually made any particular rider faster on those particular occaisions compared to how fast he would have been, if the substances had not been there. Proof would have to be based on actual testing of performance of that particular individualon "game day"--well how can one possibly do a controlled test on that day of that day's event w/o drugs by that rider compared to that rider with drugs, when the drugs are already present...something that would be impossible :s mokin:

Since it ain't what you know, but what can you prove...So establish a standard that is impossible to prove (ie actual benefit in terms of car performance), logic dictates the result must follow absolutely, and NO EVIDENCE of benefit equals no punishment....(I am sure there are some riders wishin that was the standard for bike racing...hey I may have taken some streiods but they can not prove that my actual perfomance would not have been the same w/o the drugs, those drugs did not help me at all...) :rolleyes:

The only thing that matters is if McLaren used Ferrari intelligence, not if they got faster or would not have been as fast without it. I'll use your analogy about cycling. The only thing that matters in that case is if the cyclist used steroids, not how it affected his performance. If a thorough investigation is required to prove things either way, then so be it.

[BDunnell]

The only thing that matters is if McLaren used Ferrari intelligence, not if they got faster or would not have been as fast without it.

No matter what the basis of the FIA verdict was, I agree with this statement. Otherwise, you start going down the road of races and championships being decided on the basis of hypotheticals — 'he would have won had he not retired on the last lap', and so on. It might seem a bit of a leap from this situation, but it's based on the same principle.

[Hawkmoon]

The FIA blundered by not punishing McLaren. Bringing down a guilty verdict without any punishment was always going to cause some controversy. If the FIA had fined McLaren then Ferrari would only be griping about the severity of the punishment not it's lack and I think the whole affair would have died a natural death.

As it is, Ferrari feel that McLaren have got away with proverbial murder and will move hell and high water to prove that McLaren should have been punished. Not only that, the FIA have left the door open to boot McLaren out of the 2007 and 2008 seasons if proof/more proof is found. McLaren are effectively racing with the Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads for at least the rest of this season and possibly next year as well.

If McLaren win the title this season a lot of people, especially those outside Britain, are going to feel that the title was won unjustly. That's not the way F1 World Championships are supposed to be celebrated. Just ask Benetton about '94.

[Valve Bounce]

Who asked for a severe punishment?
Any punishment would have been OK, even a fine.

Imagine you tell your kid that he is at fault because he broke the neighbor's window with the ball, but the next moment you buy him a new ball and let him start again. Do you think he understood that he was at fault? I highly doubt it.


Well, it depends on the neighbour, and what he was doing behind the window. :p :

[Valve Bounce]

In his post he questioned Flavs credibility, he didn't mention any of the others. As usual you are putting words in peoples mouths.


I've been questioning Flav's credibility for years, and nobody listens to me :(

[Valve Bounce]

The only thing that matters is if McLaren used Ferrari intelligence, not if they got faster or would not have been as fast without it. I'll use your analogy about cycling. The only thing that matters in that case is if the cyclist used steroids, not how it affected his performance. If a thorough investigation is required to prove things either way, then so be it.


I don't think this is an appropriate analogy.
Thhere are two distinct situations here:
1. Whether McLaren had knowledge of Ferraris design details which may have infringed on FIA regulations, like a moving floor, and they then asked the FIA for clarification. By doing so, Ferrari had to re-design their cars to some extent.
2. Whether McLaren had knowledge of Ferrari's design details which they then used on their own car.

The first case is dubious in whether anyone could have been labelled guilty of anything.

The second case, obviously, infringes probably several FIA regulations.

We can argue till we are blue in the face about the rights and wrongs of this case, but the FIA have made their decision and unless fresh evidence comes to light, they are not going to push this case any further.

BUT Ferrari do have cases against Coughlan and Stepney (I was going to say Steptoe), in Italy and possibly in England. Whether anything will come of this will take bloody years. Remembr the case against Williams over Senna's fatal accident? It took years to resolve.

[leopard]

I will not too much buy a fact that someone well known have poor credibility, whoever he is in position like Flavio tends to do the same thing, will always be on the side of opponent of whom have dispersed his dream about the third title for snatching his flamboyant driver away from him.

FIA wouldn't make regulation that has consequence will put themself in the trouble. This commonly happens in much cases between two parties, those who have designed the regulation will as far as possible accommodate their interest, and put themself in safe place in case any dispute may arise thereafter.

They have decided McLaren without verdict of being guilty, without enough evidence that have benefited from having Ferrari's data. In many cases of every single lawsuit there will be any testimony or witnesses from key person to whom they have submitted the datas and have they exactly implemented it on their industries? For insufficient evidence presented to charge the accused party with punishment resembles a fact that accusation made was weak.

I didn't hear before Alonso was keen on McLaren to adopt technology from ferrari, but rather likelihood he expected them to have look-alike Renault which has proved suitable for him to drive.

[wmcot]

The standard that they announced is: Did Mclaren benefit from the cheating? .

If that is to be the standard, then there is NO EVIDENCE to support finding that Mclaren's cars became faster.

To prove this, it would require an investigation of the cars involved and careful examination of the data and changes made to the Mclaren to show a direct correlation between data and car to show whether such a benefit occurred...that never ever happened.... and since it did NOT, then one can really say there is no evidence that the McLaren got faster as a result of the use of stolen data.

Indeed such a meaningful investigation would have been impossible, since that would require the cars in their exact "pre-cheat" condition, with a comparison of post cheat condition(s), in comparsion to the actual stolen data.

As Denzel Washington said repeatedly in Training Day, it ain't what you know, but what can you prove...if that is going to be the standard for a penalty to be invoked for possesion of stolen data is that one must prove changes made to the car and the car got faster by use of the data, then a thorough inspection, analysis and testing of the cars is absolutely mandatory...otherwise one can never prove it, and even with such an inspection, one would need the cars in their pre-cheat state and post-cheat state intact for such investiagtion to determine the changes and the effect of the changes---impossible in the absence of a confession of the cuprit--(and is the accused likely to confess with 100s of millions of dollars at stake,hahahah)!!!

well, apply that standard to the presence of drugs in a bike rider's body, that the rider actually benefitted from the drugs, then the winner last year of the Tour de France could have never been stripped of his title and all the stuff on the current Tour currently going on, is COMPLETELY without evidentiary support because there is no proof that these substances actually made any particular rider faster on those particular occaisions compared to how fast he would have been, if the substances had not been there. Proof would have to be based on actual testing of performance of that particular individualon "game day"--well how can one possibly do a controlled test on that day of that day's event w/o drugs by that rider compared to that rider with drugs, when the drugs are already present...something that would be impossible :s mokin:

Since it ain't what you know, but what can you prove...So establish a standard that is impossible to prove (ie actual benefit in terms of car performance), logic dictates the result must follow absolutely, and NO EVIDENCE of benefit equals no punishment....(I am sure there are some riders wishin that was the standard for bike racing...hey I may have taken some streiods but they can not prove that my actual perfomance would not have been the same w/o the drugs, those drugs did not help me at all...) :rolleyes:

It's pretty simplistic to say that McLaren haven't used information from Ferrari to improve their car so that makes them innocent. The could also use the information in a detrimental way against Ferrari to hinder them. That would have the same effect! The "flexible floor" was one example, but how do we know that McLaren have not found a way, for example, to make the air flow at the rear of their car "dirtier" in order to exploit a weakness for Ferrari to follow closely at speed? You don't have to incorporate Ferrari's design into a McLaren in order to gain an advantage. You can also exploit Ferrari's weaknesses and you would have all the documentation you need to find out about them!

[wmcot]

I agree, FIA has their rules and also McLaren employers are bound to them.

FIA also said that McLaren has broken those rules - but surprise surprise – FIA did not give them any punishment. For me that's unbelievable...

And that is the whole point of my complaint! I'm only arguing that when you find someone guilty, you punish them. If the FIA had fined McLaren, that would be great with me! If they had found there was insufficient evidence and dismissed the case that would have been OK.

The problem is that they found McLaren GUILTY! They were in breach of article 151 (I think) of the FIA sporting code. The inept FIA council then let them go with NO punishment other than a warning that they "MIGHT" be punished in the future if more evidence is found. That is unfair to ALL parties involved including McLaren! The FIA has never been able to deliver quick, just, judgements.

It's unfair to F1 fans because now we have a team that was found guilty of an offense going about their normal business with no penalty at all. The FIA is implying that it's OK to be in posession of another teams copyright-owned documents.

It's unfair to McLaren because they now have the spectre of this hanging over their heads until the FIA decides to punish them, or decides to drop it. This could last years or decades into the future!

You could have the potential scenario where the FIA strip McLaren of the title (assuming they win it) in 15 or 20 or 30 years. I can see an FIA representative driving up to a nursing home and finding an aged Todt to present with the trophy from 2007. Todt will probably look at the shiny trophy and mention something unintelligible and go back to eating his bowl of oatmeal. (I admit that this is a bit ridiculous, but the possibility was left open by the FIA.)

It would be kind of like stripping Senna of his 1990 WDC and giving it to Prost today! I can only imagine what Alain would tell them to do with the trophy! :)

[wmcot]

Because they were found guilty for the actions of one of their staff, not the team as a whole.

No, read it again! McLaren (THE TEAM) was found guilty of breaching article 151 of the FIA sporting code!

Even the title of this thread is incorrect - "McLaren cleared...for now" should actually be, "McLaren found GUILTY but go UNPUNISHED...for now"

There is a BIG difference between "being cleared" and "being found guilty but not being punished."

Here's a simple analogy - A child molester is found guilty in a court of law, but his bright lawyer finds a technicality in his trial and the trial is thrown out. Would you want the convicted child molester moving in next door now that he has been "cleared?"

(BTW - it's just an analogy - I'm not calling McLaren a bunch of child molesters - it's just an example of a similar situation)

[wmcot]

I've been questioning Flav's credibility for years, and nobody listens to me :(

You think Flavio's credibility is bad, what about the credibility of the guy that does his hair??? ;)

[ioan]

In his post he questioned Flavs credibility, he didn't mention any of the others. As usual you are putting words in peoples mouths.

My post was directed at your biased view not at Flavio! :rolleyes:

[wmcot]

I guess it's time to stop arguing now. We have the McLaren fanatics who fail to even admit that the FIA found their team guilty at all. We have the Ferrari fanatics who believe that McLaren stole their soul and got away with it.

The only thing that I have truly learned as a fact from the entire FIA hearing is that the FIA aren't willing (or maybe aren't able as Bernie's puppets) to enforce their own rules.

As a stark contrast, I was watching the ALMS race from a week ago and the officials dealt out swift punishments to Tomas Enge (5 minute penalty and subsequent suspension) and Mika Salo (2 minute penalty) for their actions during the race. It didn't take a committee to sit down and discuss the matter, it was handled fairly and swiftly during the race. It would be nice if F1 could be like that!

[Dzeidzei]

Could you tell me what use there is to have rules if they are not enforced? What is the point of the FIA's existence in this case?!

I dont think McL should be punished, since all the titles should be decided on track. But I hope this once and for all clears peoples minds on how brutal the competition is. People and teams are willing to do almost anything to be the best.

RD -as prooved- know well and in advance that they had possesion of Ferraris vital info and still stated numerous times that he knew nothing and that McL cannot be blamed for anything.

I think the same goes for every team. So stop the bull and concentrate on racing. If FIA wanted to punish McL they would have done so. All the evidence was there.

Move on.

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm only arguing that when you find someone guilty, you punish them. If the FIA had fined McLaren, that would be great with me! If they had found there was insufficient evidence and dismissed the case that would have been OK.

The problem is that they found McLaren GUILTY!
I understand what you're saying wmcot, but the reason McLaren were found guilty was that FIA regs (as I understand it) do not distinguish between a team and its employees. If an employee does something wrong then under the regs that means the team did something wrong. This is important to understand.

With this in mind, the 'headline' judgement of the FIA could equally have read "Coughlan Guilty", and that may have been a more accurate reflection of the decision. It was Coughlan who was in possession of Ferrari documents (it seems there is little or no dispute about this), and therefore, under FIA regs, McLaren were in possession of those documents.

However, many people are making the assumption that because Coughlan was in possession then McLaren must have used the documents. The FIA have not made this assumption. Therefore, while they found McLaren (i.e. Coughlan) guilty as they were obliged to do under their own regs, given the evidence presented to them at the hearing they found nothing that linked McLaren to the use of the documents in any way i.e. Coughlan was working alone and in his own interests.

Now, something may come to light in the coming weeks/months that says different, and the FIA have made it clear that if it does then McLaren will be punished, and rightly so.

p.s. It's not stretching things too much to suggest that Ferrari could be charged under Article 151C of the International Sporting Code relating to "Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally."

Think about it...As the FIA regs do not distinguish between team and employee could Ferrari not be held responsible for the alledged actions of Nigel Stepney? He's accused of passing confidential team information to a rival and is that not prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport?

If that happened - I don't believe it will - how would Ferrari fans feel about their team being held responsible for the actions of one of their employees?

[tinchote]

It's very intersting to go through this thread and see that people supply very logical arguments, and in all cases they agree in favouring the team they like the most. I would bet money that many here who are saying McLaren are not to blame, if the roles of the teams were reversed, would be here agressively calling for Ferrari banned for the season.

This display of "logic applied for the benefit of the team I like" shows very poorly on the forum's quality :s

[Mark]

It's very intersting to go through this thread and see that people supply very logical arguments, and in all cases they agree in favouring the team they like the most. I would bet money that many here who are saying McLaren are not to blame, if the roles of the teams were reversed, would be here agressively calling for Ferrari banned for the season.

This display of "logic applied for the benefit of the team I like" shows very poorly on the forum's quality :s

Never a truer word was spoken :p

[ArrowsFA1]

Walk a mile in another mans shoes. Soon you'll be a mile away from him, and you've got his shoes....bargain! :D :s mokin:

[ioan]

It's very intersting to go through this thread and see that people supply very logical arguments, and in all cases they agree in favouring the team they like the most. I would bet money that many here who are saying McLaren are not to blame, if the roles of the teams were reversed, would be here agressively calling for Ferrari banned for the season.

This display of "logic applied for the benefit of the team I like" shows very poorly on the forum's quality :s

Sad but true.

[ioan]

Walk a mile in another mans shoes. Soon you'll be a mile away from him, and you've got his shoes....bargain! :D :s mokin:

And your feet might be hurting like hell! :p :

[tinchote]

Walk a mile in another mans shoes. Soon you'll be a mile away from him, and you've got his shoes....bargain! :D :s mokin:

Indeed. You will also get nice blisters ;) :p :

[Valve Bounce]

It's very intersting to go through this thread and see that people supply very logical arguments, and in all cases they agree in favouring the team they like the most. I would bet money that many here who are saying McLaren are not to blame, if the roles of the teams were reversed, would be here agressively calling for Ferrari banned for the season.

This display of "logic applied for the benefit of the team I like" shows very poorly on the forum's quality :s

Well, my favourite team is Super Aguri, so as far as I am concerned, you can ban both Ferrari and McLaren, and I won't care.

[Valve Bounce]

Walk a mile in another mans shoes. Soon you'll be a mile away from him, and you've got his shoes....bargain! :D :s mokin:


Blue Suede?

......and Tinea!! :eek:

[Ranger]

This display of "logic applied for the benefit of the team I like" shows very poorly on the forum's quality :s

But so what? Personally I think some people take this forum too seriously (I should care less about this forum). Besides, it's OK for everyone on this forum to be biased!

[ioan]

But so what? Personally I think some people take this forum too seriously (I should care less about this forum). Besides, it's OK for everyone on this forum to be biased!

That would be somewhat OK if some wouldn't start labeling others with all kind of pejorative adjectives because of opinion differences.

[tinchote]

But so what? Personally I think some people take this forum too seriously (I should care less about this forum). Besides, it's OK for everyone on this forum to be biased!

That's not the case for me. The forum is a place I can live without (as I have done on many ocassions), but it is nice to come and discuss here. And the main thing - for me - is that: I come here to discuss ideas, and to see what other people think. If the forum is reduced to "grand-stand stadium chanting" (different forms of "my team is better than yours"), it doesn't make sense to me. I don't doubt it does for others, as one can see in many threads, including this one.

[Flat.tyres]

So you're saying that McLaren don't know what's going on in their own team unless Ferrari points it out to them?????

And that makes sense to you???

You could also say that Ferrari doesn't know whats going on in their team unless a Prontaprint employee in Surrey gives them a call. :laugh:

[Flat.tyres]

According to Coughlan's testimony, he showed the documents to several McLaren employees. Therefore, someone in the team knew about it before July 3rd and did not report it (or may have, but it was hushed up?)

And yes, IF Stepney received documents from McLaren, then the same liability and punishment should lie with Ferrari. However, it's probably a bit late for his lawyers to try that one now!

I posted this a couple of weeks ago and its coming to light finally but your missing the point still.

as I understand, this is yet to be confirmed but I'm sure it wont be long. Mike received information by email that Ferrari had an illegal floor that flexed but had found a way of getting this through the tests.

now, why Nigel (allegedly) sent this is a matter for conjecture but using this tip off, McLaren asked for clarification of the rules and very wisely didn't protest. it would have been a lot easier had Nigel sent the information direct to the FIA but he probably wanted a buffer between him and them is my guess. keep your head behind the trench and all that.

McLaren did not get a technical advantage to their vehicle out of this information but because the Ferrari car was illegal, the FIA changed the way the rule was inforced to stop the cheat. flexible floors are not allowed. Just because you find a sneaky way to get around it does not mean its illegal and they got a bit of a bollocking as I understand it for trying it.

the thing that Todts p*ssed at is that they lost a performance to McLaren because they were caught cheating and had to make their car conform to the regulations. what I find incredible is that he publicly comes out and moans about it. The gall of the man!

now, this was not the 780 poge dossier which came along later and there is no evidence that anyone at McLaren had access to that except Mike. why would they?

I do know that Todt and Ferrari better wind their necks in a bit because they are getting pretty close to overstepping the line and calling the sport into disrepute.

[Flat.tyres]

p.s. It's not stretching things too much to suggest that Ferrari could be charged under Article 151C of the International Sporting Code relating to "Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally."

Think about it...As the FIA regs do not distinguish between team and employee could Ferrari not be held responsible for the alledged actions of Nigel Stepney? He's accused of passing confidential team information to a rival and is that not prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport?

If that happened - I don't believe it will - how would Ferrari fans feel about their team being held responsible for the actions of one of their employees?

i have mentioned this a few times now and still not had an answer except from ioan saying that he wont respond to such bull$hit :rolleyes:

what Mike did was wrong. what Nigel did was wrong if the allergations against him are proven. if they are then in my eyes they are equally as guilty and the same punishment should be metered out to them and their respective employers. ie, they should both be thrown to the dogs and McLaren and Ferrari should not be punished because of two employees acting outside of their roles, stealing information from their employers and attempting to use this information in an unrelated team.

As for the Ferrari moving floor, then I dont think they should be punished. what they did was close to incuring severe sanction but they actually owe McLaren a favour for getting it clarified. Had they gona a couple of races before being discovered with a moving floor, they could have been in deep poo. The FIA dont like it when teams think they've pulled the wool over their eyes ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

...because the Ferrari car was illegal...
I don't believe Ferrari's floor was illegal. It did, however, exploit something that had not been forseen when the rules were written. The effect of the FIA's clarification was that the loophole was closed. Also, it's important to remember that all teams had to change their floor, not just Ferrari.

Ferrari's designer Aldo Costa said at the time that although they had needed to make changes to their car, it was "nothing fundamental that impacts on performance" which isn't what Jean Todt is saying now.

[Flat.tyres]

I don't believe Ferrari's floor was illegal. It did, however, exploit something that had not been forseen when the rules were written. The effect of the FIA's clarification was that the loophole was closed. Also, it's important to remember that all teams had to change their floor, not just Ferrari.

I disagree. it was illegal but was not being shown up on the tests. if we look at something like the Michelin issue when the tyres were legal when they were put on but became illegal if the same tests were conducted after use, then this is similar in some circumstances. The telling thing is that Michelin used the wording of the rules to conform which was when they were new. Ferrari had specifically designed a part of the car that behaved in a way that was illegal from the start but could get past the rules. This goes against the rule and the spirit of the rule.


Ferrari's designer Aldo Costa said at the time that although they had needed to make changes to their car, it was "nothing fundamental that impacts on performance" which isn't what Jean Todt is saying now.

look, we all know that we have to accept as gospel anything a team , journalist or columnist says. there is probably a very simple explanation for this and I'll just ask an expert.

Gary, GARY, GARY!!!

now, where has that dear child got to now :confused:

[BDunnell]

As it is, Ferrari feel that McLaren have got away with proverbial murder and will move hell and high water to prove that McLaren should have been punished.

Well, they've decided not to appeal.


If McLaren win the title this season a lot of people, especially those outside Britain, are going to feel that the title was won unjustly. That's not the way F1 World Championships are supposed to be celebrated. Just ask Benetton about '94.

Many impartial observers would say that Benetton was harshly treated by the FIA that year, and that their explanations of the traction control allegations, for example, are plausible.

[BDunnell]

It's very intersting to go through this thread and see that people supply very logical arguments, and in all cases they agree in favouring the team they like the most. I would bet money that many here who are saying McLaren are not to blame, if the roles of the teams were reversed, would be here agressively calling for Ferrari banned for the season.

This display of "logic applied for the benefit of the team I like" shows very poorly on the forum's quality :s

I cannot agree more. :up:

Those of us who watch F1, and indeed all motorsports, because we enjoy the sport, the racing and the spectacle rather than because we support a particular team or driver find this sort of obsession with the teams or drivers that people dislike as being either the spawn of Satan or inherently corrupt rather odd. It would get in the way of my enjoyment of the sport, that's for sure.

[Valve Bounce]

That's not the case for me. The forum is a place I can live without (as I have done on many ocassions), but it is nice to come and discuss here. And the main thing - for me - is that: I come here to discuss ideas, and to see what other people think. If the forum is reduced to "grand-stand stadium chanting" (different forms of "my team is better than yours"), it doesn't make sense to me. I don't doubt it does for others, as one can see in many threads, including this one.


Sometimes I come here just to have FUN!!

I reckon its great after a hard day anywhere! :(

[Valve Bounce]

I cannot agree more. :up:

Those of us who watch F1, and indeed all motorsports, because we enjoy the sport, the racing and the spectacle rather than because we support a particular team or driver find this sort of obsession with the teams or drivers that people dislike as being either the spawn of Satan or inherently corrupt rather odd. It would get in the way of my enjoyment of the sport, that's for sure.


OK!! can I invite you to join the ranks of the Super Aguri supporters here? Then we can all cheer if ant manages to pass bunsen again. :)

[BDunnell]

OK!! can I invite you to join the ranks of the Super Aguri supporters here? Then we can all cheer if ant manages to pass bunsen again. :)

Ah, I didn't say I don't like an underdog!

[seppefan]

It's very intersting to go through this thread and see that people supply very logical arguments, and in all cases they agree in favouring the team they like the most. I would bet money that many here who are saying McLaren are not to blame, if the roles of the teams were reversed, would be here agressively calling for Ferrari banned for the season.

This display of "logic applied for the benefit of the team I like" shows very poorly on the forum's quality :s

Agreed. I am a Williams fan and neutral re McLaren or Ferrari however I very much feel that Ferrari are over reacting and I feel Todt should watch his words. I quote him "Since that time and even earlier, McLaren was perfectly aware, not only of the emails sent by their informer within our company, but also of the fact that their chief designer had stayed in contact with him and had received and continued to be in possession of a significant amount of technical information that belonged to us. unqote. their informer......Mclarens lawyers will be looking very closely at that as it is slander.

What happened to the white powder story or has that been dropped in favour of this one now they suggest NS sent the papers over....Ferrari are in danger of shooting themselves in the foot just to prevent NS telling us where the scalps are and I reckon he still will in time especially as Ferrari are doing everything to prevent him getting a job. Don't blame them but they do insult our intelligence.

[Flat.tyres]

Agreed. I am a Williams fan and neutral re McLaren or Ferrari however I very much feel that Ferrari are over reacting and I feel Todt should watch his words. I quote him "Since that time and even earlier, McLaren was perfectly aware, not only of the emails sent by their informer within our company, but also of the fact that their chief designer had stayed in contact with him and had received and continued to be in possession of a significant amount of technical information that belonged to us. unqote. their informer......Mclarens lawyers will be looking very closely at that as it is slander.

What happened to the white powder story or has that been dropped in favour of this one now they suggest NS sent the papers over....Ferrari are in danger of shooting themselves in the foot just to prevent NS telling us where the scalps are and I reckon he still will in time especially as Ferrari are doing everything to prevent him getting a job. Don't blame them but they do insult our intelligence.

What I would give for a glimpse of Mikes statement because at the moment, there has been nothing that has been released that implicates anyone in McLaren, apart from him, in viewing the dossier.

hopefully, it will be confirmed that there is 2 sets of information that Ferrari are trying to seem as 1.

btw, I dont know whats happening about this white powder lark but someone mentioned that Brakes may be interesting later in the year ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Ah, I didn't say I don't like an underdog!

That's a bit mean!! Bunsen isn't really an underdog,.......................is he?? :confused:

[BDunnell]

That's a bit mean!! Bunsen isn't really an underdog,.......................is he?? :confused:

Good point!

[Flat.tyres]

I don't believe Ferrari's floor was illegal.

it also seems that Todt thinks it was as well.



"In an attempt to justify its actions, McLaren has tried to claim the immunity normally accorded to a whistleblower in some legal systems.
"But it should be noted that usually, an informant or whistleblower goes to the competent authority to denounce something, whereas in this case he went to Ferrari's main rival who, and it is not us who say this but the FIA, took great care not to mention that the information was obtained in this way.


When Jean is using words like "whistle-blower", it rather suggests that they knew the car wasn't legal and were unhappy that one of their employees blew the whistle on it, doesn't it?

[markabilly]

It's pretty simplistic to say that McLaren haven't used information from Ferrari to improve their car so that makes them innocent. The could also use the information in a detrimental way against Ferrari to hinder them. That would have the same effect! The "flexible floor" was one example, but how do we know that McLaren have not found a way, for example, to make the air flow at the rear of their car "dirtier" in order to exploit a weakness for Ferrari to follow closely at speed? You don't have to incorporate Ferrari's design into a McLaren in order to gain an advantage. You can also exploit Ferrari's weaknesses and you would have all the documentation you need to find out about them!

"CHASING THAT WHICH CAN NOT BE CAUGHT"

The standard that FIA has declared that must be met is benefit to the team and it is IMPOSSIBLE to prove---given the nature of the infraction, the necessity of being able to compare data to the car's "pre-data" and "post-data" changes (impossible at this stage) to show cause and effect, and even more so, given the absence of such an investigation and examination of the actual cars.....argue all you want, for or against, but if any court of law were to be required to rule based on these facts and this particular standard, the only ruling would be NO BENEFIT PROVED.

Don't mean cheating and a resulting benefit did not happen, only that you can not prove it...it ain't what you know, it is what you can prove....call it justice or call it escaping through a loophole...call it favoritism or whatever. If you accept this standard (benefit) for proof, then the result is and must be NO beneft proved. Period.

My point is that it is the wrong standard--simple possession should suffice and that is all that should be necessary.

If it were necessary to prove that a bike rider actually and truly got faster on a particular day, solely because of doping, then no one could ever be DQ. Never ever. ;)

All that has happened is that everyone is now chasing that which can not be caught. :eek: ..talk about clever.... :s mokin:


so it is very convient "for the good of the sport" to establish a standard of "benefit" that on its face is quite reasonable, yet provides the perfect backdoor to slide out of the mess that would otherwise cost the sport (Bernie) millions of dollars by actually doing something about it....

[Flat.tyres]

According to Coughlan's testimony, he showed the documents to several McLaren employees. Therefore, someone in the team knew about it before July 3rd and did not report it (or may have, but it was hushed up?)

again, the info before McLaren was informed of the dossier by Ferrari was more "whistle blowing" on the illegal floor. this was then used by McLaren to clarify the position on flexing floors and of course, we know they are banned and the FIA tightened up the rules to stop Ferrari being able to use them.

McLaren then instructed Mike that he was to have no further communication with Nigel and even took the steps of using technology to block any attachments emailed by him.

It seems that after the first whistle blowing, Mclaren did everything they possibly could to stop Mike from communicating with Nigel. No wonder Mrs S had to pop down to prontaprint because he had to use his home email account. :laugh:

And Ferrari fans still claim that McLaren had this document. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

again, the info before McLaren was informed of the dossier by Ferrari was more "whistle blowing" on the illegal floor. this was then used by McLaren to clarify the position on flexing floors and of course, we know they are banned and the FIA tightened up the rules to stop Ferrari being able to use them.

McLaren then instructed Mike that he was to have no further communication with Nigel and even took the steps of using technology to block any attachments emailed by him.

It seems that after the first whistle blowing, Mclaren did everything they possibly could to stop Mike from communicating with Nigel. No wonder Mrs S had to pop down to prontaprint because he had to use his home email account. :laugh:

And Ferrari fans still claim that McLaren had this document. :rolleyes:

If McLaren really wanted not to get into problems because of Coughlan and Stepney's doings it would have been enough to fire Coughlan and cut all contacts with him.
They didn't do it although they knew that what he was doing was illegal.
Why is that? Because they wanted to get ahead of Ferrari, and the info that Coughlan got was just the way to do it!

Ron shed a few tears here and there about how he's company was purer than a virgin, but truth is he's been a hypocrite and Mclaren are cheating their way back to the top of the business helped by Bernie and the FIA.

[Flat.tyres]

If McLaren really wanted not to get into problems because of Coughlan and Stepney's doings it would have been enough to fire Coughlan and cut all contacts with him.
They didn't do it although they knew that what he was doing was illegal.
Why is that? Because they wanted to get ahead of Ferrari, and the info that Coughlan got was just the way to do it!

Ron shed a few tears here and there about how he's company was purer than a virgin, but truth is he's been a hypocrite and Mclaren are cheating their way back to the top of the business helped by Bernie and the FIA.

your flights of fancy get more and more incredible ;)

so, a Ferrari employee spills the beans that they are cheating and McLaren raise the issue with the FIA in a non-confrontational manner. They didn't shout "conspiracy" or "cheats" as Ferrari are now but asked for clarification. Nasty Ron :D

then, they instruct their employee that although they received proof of Ferrari cheating, they dont want to be in a situation where they receive any more information in the future and take steps to ensure this doesn't happen.

So, what exactly have they done wrong and why should Mike have been sacked for supplying proof of Ferrari cheating? A pat on the back I would have thought and if Ferrari are so pure, why did they not sack the head designer that tried to defraud the championship by allowing a moveable floor?

[ioan]

your flights of fancy get more and more incredible ;)

so, a Ferrari employee spills the beans that they are cheating and McLaren raise the issue with the FIA in a non-confrontational manner. They didn't shout "conspiracy" or "cheats" as Ferrari are now but asked for clarification. Nasty Ron :D

then, they instruct their employee that although they received proof of Ferrari cheating, they dont want to be in a situation where they receive any more information in the future and take steps to ensure this doesn't happen.

So, what exactly have they done wrong and why should Mike have been sacked for supplying proof of Ferrari cheating? A pat on the back I would have thought and if Ferrari are so pure, why did they not sack the head designer that tried to defraud the championship by allowing a moveable floor?

Do you have proof that things happened the way you believe they happened? I doubt it.

[wmcot]

McLaren did not get a technical advantage to their vehicle out of this information.

And you've personally examined their car and data and can verify this...or you're taking McLaren's word for this? I really doubt the FIA tore apart an MP4/22 and F2007 looking for any similarities and then compared all McLaren data from before March with all McLaren data after March. I find it difficult to take the word of ANYONE in big business, Ferrari, McLaren, Enron...

[wmcot]

Do you have proof that things happened the way you believe they happened? I doubt it.

He doesn't need proof, he's got Ron's word on it! ;)

[wmcot]

this was then used by McLaren to clarify the position on flexing floors

So you admit that you think McLaren USED stolen information???

[wmcot]

"CHASING THAT WHICH CAN NOT BE CAUGHT"

The standard that FIA has declared that must be met is benefit to the team and it is IMPOSSIBLE to prove---given the nature of the infraction, the necessity of being able to compare data to the car's "pre-data" and "post-data" changes (impossible at this stage) to show cause and effect, and even more so, given the absence of such an investigation and examination of the actual cars.....argue all you want, for or against, but if any court of law were to be required to rule based on these facts and this particular standard, the only ruling would be NO BENEFIT PROVED.

Don't mean cheating and a resulting benefit did not happen, only that you can not prove it...it ain't what you know, it is what you can prove....call it justice or call it escaping through a loophole...call it favoritism or whatever. If you accept this standard (benefit) for proof, then the result is and must be NO beneft proved. Period.

My point is that it is the wrong standard--simple possession should suffice and that is all that should be necessary.

If it were necessary to prove that a bike rider actually and truly got faster on a particular day, solely because of doping, then no one could ever be DQ. Never ever. ;)

All that has happened is that everyone is now chasing that which can not be caught. :eek: ..talk about clever.... :s mokin:


so it is very convient "for the good of the sport" to establish a standard of "benefit" that on its face is quite reasonable, yet provides the perfect backdoor to slide out of the mess that would otherwise cost the sport (Bernie) millions of dollars by actually doing something about it....

My comments were strictly hypothetical. I was merely pointing out that most people are assuming that McLaren would use the Ferrari documents to apply something directly to their car. In fact, they COULD (hypothetically) use the data to hinder Ferrari if they found a weakness with the F2007.

The idea was not to suggest that there would be a way to prove this, just to make others think that there are more ways than one to make use of the data.

[wmcot]

your flights of fancy get more and more incredible ;)

so, a Ferrari employee spills the beans that they are cheating and McLaren raise the issue with the FIA in a non-confrontational manner. They didn't shout "conspiracy" or "cheats" as Ferrari are now but asked for clarification. Nasty Ron :D

then, they instruct their employee that although they received proof of Ferrari cheating, they dont want to be in a situation where they receive any more information in the future and take steps to ensure this doesn't happen.

So, what exactly have they done wrong and why should Mike have been sacked for supplying proof of Ferrari cheating? A pat on the back I would have thought and if Ferrari are so pure, why did they not sack the head designer that tried to defraud the championship by allowing a moveable floor?

Speaking of flights of fancy!!! Do you really think Stepney sent the 780 pages to Coughlan because he was feeling guilty that Ferrari were using a flexible floor? Why would he go to McLaren? Wouldn't it be proper to go to the authorities? That's what anyone who felt his employer was doing something wrong would do. There are laws to protect you as a "whistleblower" in that case.

I think your definitions of whistleblowing and espionage are messed up.

[wmcot]

Here's an interesting technical matter which may be used in a court trial. Did Coughlan bill the copies to McLaren's account? If so, the copies are McLaren's property, not Coughlan's...just something to think about.

Even the title of this thread is incorrect - "McLaren cleared...for now" should actually be, "McLaren found GUILTY but go UNPUNISHED...for now"

Sorry.........and to think I'm a Tifosi!

I will now go and flagellate myself with a brembo brake pipe and ask our lord enzo for forgiveness.

[Bagwan]

Why did McLaren have to ask for a clarification from the FIA on whether the floor was legal ?
Does a "clarification" not mean that was not clear whether it was legal or not ?

Did they rewrite part of the code to close the loophole , or write an addendum , showing that , when Ferrari designed this innovation into thier cars , it wasn't illegal , but now was banned .


Let's get this straight right now .
Was Ferrari cheating under the rules ?

From what I understand about this subject , I would say no .


Can anyone offer evidence to the contrary ?

As to Costa saying it wouldn't have much effect , just what would you expect him to say ?
Perhaps he should have said "Oh , we're screwed now . We're goin' home ."?


They (and others) had found a way to interpret the rules and measurement standards to allow for such a suspension device .
We saw re-design all along the pit lane , except at McLaren , who suddenly , although out-classed in Melbourne , ran hot at the next races .

If they knew , and it is believed they received data a significant length of time ago , it is not just the idea that they had the info , but what they did , or perhaps more tellingly , what they didn't do with it .
By not revealing this earlier , it saw Coughlan and the team to go down the stiff floor road , not only in season , but also in testing .
That gave a distinct advantage to McLaren , not having to re-design like the others .
They had no need to go back to pre-flex floor design , nor did they have to negate all the costs of the testing with the flex-floor .

To have waited until they appeared to have seen it in Melbourne , so it had the maximum effect of de-stabilization on thier rivals , seems rather the icing on the cake .


Then it becomes rather a blind alley for Ferrari to wind through , with no way out .
Ron offered free rein to show how it had not affected the design , and in essence , it hadn't .
It appears it had had an effect on the others though , and that has Ferrari in a "catch-22" , and the FIA and Ron under a big shadow .

[jso1985]

Who asked for a severe punishment?
Any punishment would have been OK, even a fine.


Glad to read you'd be happy if they would have only been fined, from my point of view they shouldn't be punished in the championship if it hasn't been proved they used the data for their benefit, but they should have been fined.

But let's be honest, how many of you who are not happy with the FIA's decision would be still claiming McLaren has not been punished if they would have only been fined? I think most of you just want Ferrari to win the championship in an easier way

[Ian McC]

It's very intersting to go through this thread and see that people supply very logical arguments, and in all cases they agree in favouring the team they like the most. I would bet money that many here who are saying McLaren are not to blame, if the roles of the teams were reversed, would be here agressively calling for Ferrari banned for the season.

This display of "logic applied for the benefit of the team I like" shows very poorly on the forum's quality :s

Aye Tin, true enough indeed, and it has always been like that on here and no doubt always will, but hey, if we all agreed it wouldn't be a lot of fun would it ;)

[BDunnell]

Why did McLaren have to ask for a clarification from the FIA on whether the floor was legal ?
Does a "clarification" not mean that was not clear whether it was legal or not ?

It may genuinely not have been clear — letter as opposed to spirit of the rules (and vice versa), and all that.

[raphael123]

Who asked for a severe punishment?
Any punishment would have been OK, even a fine.

Imagine you tell your kid that he is at fault because he broke the neighbor's window with the ball, but the next moment you buy him a new ball and let him start again. Do you think he understood that he was at fault? I highly doubt it.

Umm...a kid might not understand, but these are fully grown adults we are talking about. And if punishing them is to teach them what they did was wrong, then it really doesn't apply in this situation. There was nothing McLaren could have done to stop this happening - an individual who happened to work for them acted irresponsibly. McLaren knew nothing about this. They were found guilty - as they should have been, but a punishment, when it hard nothing to do with them, and which they didnt benefit from, would be harsh.

I can see why people are moaning that you can't be found guilty with no punishment, but in this instant, I'm glad common sense was used.

[raphael123]

The only thing that matters is if McLaren used Ferrari intelligence, not if they got faster or would not have been as fast without it.

If that's the case, then surely they should be punished. Coughlan is part of McLaren - unless he had the document and didn't read it :confused:

[raphael123]

No matter what the basis of the FIA verdict was, I agree with this statement. Otherwise, you start going down the road of races and championships being decided on the basis of hypotheticals — 'he would have won had he not retired on the last lap', and so on. It might seem a bit of a leap from this situation, but it's based on the same principle.

So you think Coughlan shouldn't be treated as part of McLaren?

[raphael123]

It's pretty simplistic to say that McLaren haven't used information from Ferrari to improve their car so that makes them innocent. The could also use the information in a detrimental way against Ferrari to hinder them. That would have the same effect! The "flexible floor" was one example, but how do we know that McLaren have not found a way, for example, to make the air flow at the rear of their car "dirtier" in order to exploit a weakness for Ferrari to follow closely at speed? You don't have to incorporate Ferrari's design into a McLaren in order to gain an advantage. You can also exploit Ferrari's weaknesses and you would have all the documentation you need to find out about them!

Very true, but you can't punish a team on an assumption they used the document, or were even aware one of their employee had it until July.

And no one has been able to explain why Mike Coughlan sent his wife to the local library to photocopy it, if McLaren and Ron knew all about it. Surely they would have done it inhouse, not in a public library!!!

[markabilly]

What Ron Dennis is really thinking in his secret confession:


"You ferrari fans are so right, man we did screw up BIG TIME....we were grossly negligent and did make a mistake!!!! When we hired this Mike fellow...we never thought that he would leave stuff like this laying around when shredders are so cheap, to say nothing of melting the old hardrive into molten plastic...if we had known he was that f***ing stupid, we never ever would have hired him"

:mad:

:s mokin:

[raphael123]

Well, they've decided not to appeal.



Many impartial observers would say that Benetton was harshly treated by the FIA that year, and that their explanations of the traction control allegations, for example, are plausible.

Can I ask what Benetton's explanation was for having a banned system on their car? And the fuel rig problems too?

Cheers :)

[raphael123]

"CHASING THAT WHICH CAN NOT BE CAUGHT"

The standard that FIA has declared that must be met is benefit to the team and it is IMPOSSIBLE to prove---given the nature of the infraction, the necessity of being able to compare data to the car's "pre-data" and "post-data" changes (impossible at this stage) to show cause and effect, and even more so, given the absence of such an investigation and examination of the actual cars.....argue all you want, for or against, but if any court of law were to be required to rule based on these facts and this particular standard, the only ruling would be NO BENEFIT PROVED.

Don't mean cheating and a resulting benefit did not happen, only that you can not prove it...it ain't what you know, it is what you can prove....call it justice or call it escaping through a loophole...call it favoritism or whatever. If you accept this standard (benefit) for proof, then the result is and must be NO beneft proved. Period.

My point is that it is the wrong standard--simple possession should suffice and that is all that should be necessary.

If it were necessary to prove that a bike rider actually and truly got faster on a particular day, solely because of doping, then no one could ever be DQ. Never ever. ;)

All that has happened is that everyone is now chasing that which can not be caught. :eek: ..talk about clever.... :s mokin:


so it is very convient "for the good of the sport" to establish a standard of "benefit" that on its face is quite reasonable, yet provides the perfect backdoor to slide out of the mess that would otherwise cost the sport (Bernie) millions of dollars by actually doing something about it....

I think it varies in each circumstance. In cycling, the example you used backs up your arguement very well.

However, we can look at other cases which work in favour of the FIA ruling, for example if we look at the possession of guns, should someone who has access to a gun, be punished as severely as someone who has used a gun? The common sense answer for most would be of course not. With McLaren - they didn't even know one of their employee had the document!

[raphael123]

Do you have proof that things happened the way you believe they happened? I doubt it.

Do you? :confused:

[Hawkmoon]

And no one has been able to explain why Mike Coughlan sent his wife to the local library to photocopy it, if McLaren and Ron knew all about it. Surely they would have done it inhouse, not in a public library!!!

This is probably going to get a bit clandestine but photocopiers put a serial number on each page that is copied by them. This serial number identifies which photocopier made the copy and can only be read with the right equipment. It's something that the photocopier manufacturers installed to help fight counterfeiting. If the McLaren copier was used to copy the document then any copies found could be directly traced back to the McLaren copier. That's something that McLaren may well have wanted to avoid. ;)

To be perfectly honest I don't know why Coughlan wanted to make a hard copy at all because the police found the document as a soft copy in his home. Wouldn't it have been easier to just copy the disc? :confused:

For those that suggest that if McLaren could be punished for the actions of Coughlan, then so to Ferrari for the actions of Stepney, I think they are missing one thing.

Coughlan would have been acting for the benefit of McLaren were as Stepney would have been acting to the detriment of Ferrari. I think that distinction would prevent any action being taken against Ferrari.

[raphael123]

And you've personally examined their car and data and can verify this...or you're taking McLaren's word for this? I really doubt the FIA tore apart an MP4/22 and F2007 looking for any similarities and then compared all McLaren data from before March with all McLaren data after March. I find it difficult to take the word of ANYONE in big business, Ferrari, McLaren, Enron...

Your in the belief that McLaren should be punished on an 'assumption' then I take it?

[raphael123]

This is probably going to get a bit clandestine but photocopiers put a serial number on each page that is copied by them. This serial number identifies which photocopier made the copy and can only be read with the right equipment. It's something that the photocopier manufacturers installed to help fight counterfeiting. If the McLaren copier was used to copy the document then any copies found could be directly traced back to the McLaren copier. That's something that McLaren may well have wanted to avoid. ;)

To be perfectly honest I don't know why Coughlan wanted to make a hard copy at all because the police found the document as a soft copy in his home. Wouldn't it have been easier to just copy the disc? :confused:

For those that suggest that if McLaren could be punished for the actions of Coughlan, then so to Ferrari for the actions of Stepney, I think they are missing one thing.

Coughlan would have been acting for the benefit of McLaren were as Stepney would have been acting to the detriment of Ferrari. I think that distinction would prevent any action being taken against Ferrari.

lol never heard of that. where is this serial number?

and I agree about the fact Ferrari shouldn't be punished for Stepney's action, however Flat Tyre is right, some of the stuff Todt is coming out with is quite laughable. Moaning about being caught bending the rules!

[Hawkmoon]

lol never heard of that. where is this serial number?

I think it's in one of the corners of the page but you can't see it without the right kind of light. You know, like that "magic" ink that you can only see under UV light.

Ron's a crafty bugger. I wouldn't put it past him to have thought of this. :D

[wmcot]

Very true, but you can't punish a team on an assumption they used the document, or were even aware one of their employee had it until July.

And no one has been able to explain why Mike Coughlan sent his wife to the local library to photocopy it, if McLaren and Ron knew all about it. Surely they would have done it inhouse, not in a public library!!!

Referring to point 1 - Other McLaren employees WERE aware that Coughlan had the document as he has sworn in his affidavit. He showed it to them and even though he said they wanted no part in it, they didn't report it to the authorities. This makes them accomplices by definition.

As for point 2 - This has puzzled me for a couple of reasons. First, who were the copies for? Did Coughlan need more than 1 set of documents? I doubt it. He was making them for someone else, but who?

Secondly, I think (this is my opinion only) that he used a commercial copy center rather than a McLaren-owned copier because either: 1. McLaren would not let him use their equipment for fear of linking themselves to Coughlan's document (knowing what it contained) or 2. Coughlan decided to use an outside copy center for the same reason. If they had been made on McLaren equipment, that would link McLaren more deeply as a conspirator.

[wmcot]

Your in the belief that McLaren should be punished on an 'assumption' then I take it?

No, not on the assumption. That will never be proven. My problem is that the were not punished after being found GUILTY of breaching FIA sporting code 151. That's all they have been found guilty of (so far) but why did the FIA choose not to punish them after finding them guilty? The FIA is supposed to police its own rules, but they chose to ignore their own verdict. Why? It makes no sense. Even a simple fine which would amount to a slap on McLaren's wrist wasn't handed out. Why?

Many have speculated that the FIA are waiting until after the season to hand out a penalty. That would be stupid on their part. Are they (the FIA) that devious? Is Bernie pulling their strings? Are they waiting to see if Ferrari wins the WCC this season so they can then strip McLaren of their WCC points without any real consequences?

The FIA have been sporatic at policing their rules at best. Yes they did suspend Honda and strip them of points, but that was a rare incident. There policy has mostly been to "not make waves" by handling matters (or not handling them) in ineffective ways. Most of the times when a questionable part is found on a car, the team is not punished, but a directive is issued stating that in the future that part will not be allowed. MS was stripped of his points in 1997 only after it was clear that he would not win the WDC. There was 1994. There was the 1990 Suzuka incident where Senna publicly stated that he would drive Prost off the road before the race and then proceeded to do so, only to be awarded the WDC...

The FIA are not an effective organization. They have been neutered and I suspect it is by Bernie and Max holding the dollar sign over their heads.

OK, I'm climbing down off the soapbox now... ;)

[wmcot]

For those that suggest that if McLaren could be punished for the actions of Coughlan, then so to Ferrari for the actions of Stepney, I think they are missing one thing.

Coughlan would have been acting for the benefit of McLaren were as Stepney would have been acting to the detriment of Ferrari. I think that distinction would prevent any action being taken against Ferrari.

Very well said!!

[janneppi]

For those that suggest that if McLaren could be punished for the actions of Coughlan, then so to Ferrari for the actions of Stepney, I think they are missing one thing.

Coughlan would have been acting for the benefit of McLaren were as Stepney would have been acting to the detriment of Ferrari. I think that distinction would prevent any action being taken against Ferrari.
What if Coughlan was acting for the benefit of himself(and his possible future employer) instead of McLaren.

Wouldn't that put him in the almost same boat with Stepney?

[ArrowsFA1]

For those that suggest that if McLaren could be punished for the actions of Coughlan, then so to Ferrari for the actions of Stepney, I think they are missing one thing.

Coughlan would have been acting for the benefit of McLaren were as Stepney would have been acting to the detriment of Ferrari. I think that distinction would prevent any action being taken against Ferrari.
The FIA's charge related to a breach of Article 151C of the International Sporting Code - "Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally". I don't think it matters who suffers or gains.

Neither Coughlan's or Stepney's alleged actions can be seen as beneficial to competition, or the interests of motor sport IMHO.

[ioan]

Do you? :confused:

I limited my comments to what was made public by the parties before and after the hearing.
Our dear friend flat.tyres however goes to huge lengths with his suppositions of what happened to come to the conclusion that it's all Ferrari's fault. Not even Ron dared to imply that it's Ferrari's fault.
So I just wanted to know what his SF theory is based on! ;)

[ioan]

No, not on the assumption. That will never be proven. My problem is that the were not punished after being found GUILTY of breaching FIA sporting code 151. That's all they have been found guilty of (so far) but why did the FIA choose not to punish them after finding them guilty? The FIA is supposed to police its own rules, but they chose to ignore their own verdict. Why? It makes no sense. Even a simple fine which would amount to a slap on McLaren's wrist wasn't handed out. Why?

They wanted to avoid to have to stand Ron's crying crisis that would have followed! :D

[ArrowsFA1]

My problem is that the were not punished after being found GUILTY of breaching FIA sporting code 151. That's all they have been found guilty of (so far) but why did the FIA choose not to punish them after finding them guilty?
I have tried to explain my opinion of the reasoning behind the FIA's decision in post #278 (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=313604&postcount=278). McLaren were found guilty simply because Coughlan was a McLaren employee. There was no punishment because there was no evidence of any documents in Coughlan's possession actually being used in any way by McLaren. Coughlan had the documents in his possession, not McLaren.

As a general question for everyone - Would it be reasonable and fair for a team, to be fined or thrown out of the championship because one of their employees acted alone and in their own interests, without the knowledge or authorisation of the team?

[leopard]

Coughlan silently was impressed with the top speed of Ferrari, he might have a dream to build his own team someday, using his knowledge when he is employed by McLaren and combine it with data he possessed from Ferrari. Who knows :(

[F1MAN2007]

Ferrari is big and respected team, but I don't see why Ferrari is moaning about what happened?! Particularly the way his CEO is talking using improper words?! I can't believe it?

I think, the best way Ferrari has now is to respond on track and show their superiority as they feel they are master in technology. If Couglan (or Mclaren for some) has received technical info from Ferrari, it is up to Ferrari to find out how to protect their technical info first before to attack anybody else.

[Ranger]

Ferrari are certainly fighting a losing battle with the FIA here. It's in good spirit after how they must feel, but they have to focus their energy on making their cars faster and more reliable.

[Viktory]

Ferrari is big and respected team, but I don't see why Ferrari is moaning about what happened?! Particularly the way his CEO is talking using improper words?! I can't believe it?


Ferrari have every reason to be upset about this. McLaren were found guilty of being in possession of confidential Ferrari documents, but get no punishment. How can this be justified?

[Flat.tyres]

Do you have proof that things happened the way you believe they happened? I doubt it.

not at the moment as the facts haven't come out yet. I said a while ago that there was more than just the dossier which is what Ferrari seem to be trying to whitewash over. I know Todt is trying to lump it all together but read between the lines of what he said in the last couple of days and make your own mind up whether Im right or not. But, thats not proof as its just a comment but proof will be released eventually.

[F1MAN2007]

Ferrari have every reason to be upset about this. McLaren were found guilty of being in possession of confidential Ferrari documents, but get no punishment. How can this be justified?

But I think even if Mclaren (Coughlan) were found guilty and not get punishment, the way Ferrari behaves this time don't think it will help them more?

Like someone said above, first they would sort out the reliability and other big issues problems within the team before to get upset while they have played a big role part in all is happening today. They are the source of this SAGA.

As the case is still open for any new strong evidence for this accusation, it would be good for them to concetrate on their work, particularly on the reliability of their cars and then poursuit the case slowly but surely.

[Flat.tyres]

Speaking of flights of fancy!!! Do you really think Stepney sent the 780 pages to Coughlan because he was feeling guilty that Ferrari were using a flexible floor? Why would he go to McLaren? Wouldn't it be proper to go to the authorities? That's what anyone who felt his employer was doing something wrong would do. There are laws to protect you as a "whistleblower" in that case.

I think your definitions of whistleblowing and espionage are messed up.

get your head around the fact that there were at least 2 sets of information. The initial email was a whistle blow as confirmed by Todt. Subsequent to that and instructions from McLaren to cease communication and the provision of a firewall to stop receiving information from Stepney, as confirmed by Todt, the dossier was sent privatly to Mike. We can only assume that Mike and Nigel were in league and the reason was a move to a 3rd party team, probably Honda.

Now, I know I have no proof but the comments from Jean T confirm this and if you put any credibility by what he says then so be it.

The first email was whistle blowing and it would have been better for everyone if Nigel went direct to the FIA but understandable he didn't. The dossier was espionage and that was outside of McLaren knowledge and strictly between Nigel and Mike.

As I have said, call this opinion as the facts are not released yet but you will find they are accurate.

[Flat.tyres]

For those that suggest that if McLaren could be punished for the actions of Coughlan, then so to Ferrari for the actions of Stepney, I think they are missing one thing.

Coughlan would have been acting for the benefit of McLaren were as Stepney would have been acting to the detriment of Ferrari. I think that distinction would prevent any action being taken against Ferrari.

I agree with that Hawkmoon but do you think that Nigels actions, being the person that started this debarcle, is guilty of bringing the sport into disrepute?

If McLaren are guilty for the actions of their employee which was against the express orders of Ron, then are Ferrari guilty of the actions of their employee even though he has done something against their express orders as well.

Im not calling for anything to be done about this and in no way think that it should be but its food for thought for the people that want McLaren to be punished for something they had no awareness of and activly discouraged.

[Flat.tyres]

I limited my comments to what was made public by the parties before and after the hearing.
Our dear friend flat.tyres however goes to huge lengths with his suppositions of what happened to come to the conclusion that it's all Ferrari's fault. Not even Ron dared to imply that it's Ferrari's fault.
So I just wanted to know what his SF theory is based on! ;)

when have I ever said that this whole sorry mess is Ferrari's fault any more than it was McLarens.

True, Ferrari had an illegal floor but that was dealt with by the FIA when McLaren had a tip off and attempted to deal with it in a non confrontational manner. Matter closed.

Then we have Mike and Nigel acting on their own with no benefit to either team. For this, the two men should be called to answer and probably chucked out of the sport. Neither Mclaren or Ferrari were guilty.

the only thing Ferrari are guilty of is in this huge media war they have created with leaked court data and one sided, skewed statements. They should have a little more decorum.

by the way, what SF mean. im not very computer literate.

[F1MAN2007]

when have I ever said that this whole sorry mess is Ferrari's fault any more than it was McLarens.

True, Ferrari had an illegal floor but that was dealt with by the FIA when McLaren had a tip off and attempted to deal with it in a non confrontational manner. Matter closed.

Then we have Mike and Nigel acting on their own with no benefit to either team. For this, the two men should be called to answer and probably chucked out of the sport. Neither Mclaren or Ferrari were guilty.

the only thing Ferrari are guilty of is in this huge media war they have created with leaked court data and one sided, skewed statements. They should have a little more decorum.

by the way, what SF mean. im not very computer literate.


:up: very well said.

[ArrowsFA1]

The Italian press is reporting that Ferrari is to lodge a complaint against McLaren with the public prosecution service in Modena. The Italian investigators would then look at the case when there is time available and would decide whether there is any evidence to warrant action. The complaint against Nigel Stepney, made a month ago, has not thus far resulted in any charges thus far and it may be that Ferrari is happy with this situation, as it may prefer to negotiate a settlement with Stepney in order to strengthen its case against McLaren.
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19465.html

Also:

The FIA says that Luigi Macaluso, the president of the FIA-CIK must have been mistaken when he said that he was the only World Council delegate to have been against the decision not to punish McLaren. "We can confirm that the World Motor Sport Council's decision was unanimous," said an FIA spokesman. "We can only imagine that Mr Macaluso's comments were either taken out of context or were not clearly expressed in the media scrum which ensued outside the hearing."
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19461.html

[raphael123]

Referring to point 1 - Other McLaren employees WERE aware that Coughlan had the document as he has sworn in his affidavit. He showed it to them and even though he said they wanted no part in it, they didn't report it to the authorities. This makes them accomplices by definition.

As for point 2 - This has puzzled me for a couple of reasons. First, who were the copies for? Did Coughlan need more than 1 set of documents? I doubt it. He was making them for someone else, but who?



In this case, it's one man's version against another. Coughlan swears other people knew about it - Ron Dennis says no one but Coughlan knew about it. What makes you think Coughlan, the cheat is more trustworthy, or less of a liar than Ron Dennis? It seems like your basically choosing who you want to believe, to back up your thoughts in the discussion.



Secondly, I think (this is my opinion only) that he used a commercial copy center rather than a McLaren-owned copier because either: 1. McLaren would not let him use their equipment for fear of linking themselves to Coughlan's document (knowing what it contained) or 2. Coughlan decided to use an outside copy center for the same reason. If they had been made on McLaren equipment, that would link McLaren more deeply as a conspirator.


As for the copies, I'm sure there would have been less of a chance of McLaren being caught if they kept it in-house rather than go to a PUBLIC library to do the photocopying. If McLaren were in on it, I'm quite sure they would have the money to give the cash to Coughlan for one at his home.

The most likely scenerio is McLaren weren't aware, hence why Coughlan went to a public library. Seems like some people are going out their way to think up of a story which would mean McLaren would have told Coughlan to make copies outside of McLaren's property.


No, not on the assumption. That will never be proven. My problem is that the were not punished after being found GUILTY of breaching FIA sporting code 151. That's all they have been found guilty of (so far) but why did the FIA choose not to punish them after finding them guilty? The FIA is supposed to police its own rules, but they chose to ignore their own verdict. Why? It makes no sense. Even a simple fine which would amount to a slap on McLaren's wrist wasn't handed out. Why?

They had to find them guilty due to the rules in the book, but then used what I think was the common sense approach as to rather than punish a team which had no involvement with one of their employee's cheating ways, to only punish them if it turned out they did indeed use that information. Same with the difference between murdering someone, and manslaughter.


Many have speculated that the FIA are waiting until after the season to hand out a penalty. That would be stupid on their part. Are they (the FIA) that devious? Is Bernie pulling their strings? Are they waiting to see if Ferrari wins the WCC this season so they can then strip McLaren of their WCC points without any real consequences?

Possible, or maybe they can't punish a team with no evidence they have actually cheated, and therefore, as they say, if any evidence does show up, then they will punish them.


The FIA have been sporatic at policing their rules at best. Yes they did suspend Honda and strip them of points, but that was a rare incident. There policy has mostly been to "not make waves" by handling matters (or not handling them) in ineffective ways. Most of the times when a questionable part is found on a car, the team is not punished, but a directive is issued stating that in the future that part will not be allowed. MS was stripped of his points in 1997 only after it was clear that he would not win the WDC. There was 1994. There was the 1990 Suzuka incident where Senna publicly stated that he would drive Prost off the road before the race and then proceeded to do so, only to be awarded the WDC...

I agree with this

[quote]

[F1MAN2007]

What I have seen long time ago is that even the FIA get confused with their regulations. The interpretation is different depending on where, what, when and who.

[ArrowsFA1]

"I did not take any designs away from Ferrari. Someone passed on the designs but it wasn't me. I do not want to involve other colleagues. I know one part of the story, not all. Ferrari know the whole story."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61240

[Flat.tyres]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61240

We need to still remember that Nigel is innocent until proven otherwise. I may be wrong on this but have any formal charges been made against Nigel?

If Nigel has been set up then what is the motive? I cant see it because the only reason this came to light is because of Couglans incompetence at having them printed in the manner he did.

[ioan]

I have tried to explain my opinion of the reasoning behind the FIA's decision in post #278 (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=313604&postcount=278). McLaren were found guilty simply because Coughlan was a McLaren employee. There was no punishment because there was no evidence of any documents in Coughlan's possession actually being used in any way by McLaren. Coughlan had the documents in his possession, not McLaren.

As a general question for everyone - Would it be reasonable and fair for a team, to be fined or thrown out of the championship because one of their employees acted alone and in their own interests, without the knowledge or authorisation of the team?

If the member of the team was a mechanic or lower than it might be ignored, but one of the chief designers knowing the Ferrari F2007's intricacies for about 3 months means that the team was using the info as long as he was working for them.
They knew this will end with problems why didn't they fire him as soon as they knew he was receiving classified info about Ferrari's cars???

[ioan]

Also:


The FIA says that Luigi Macaluso, the president of the FIA-CIK must have been mistaken when he said that he was the only World Council delegate to have been against the decision not to punish McLaren. "We can confirm that the World Motor Sport Council's decision was unanimous," said an FIA spokesman. "We can only imagine that Mr Macaluso's comments were either taken out of context or were not clearly expressed in the media scrum which ensued outside the hearing."

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19461.html

It's nice to see that as long as Bernie and Max agree on something than it's considered unanimous even if others are against it! Nice, very nice M&B!

[ArrowsFA1]

If the member of the team was a mechanic or lower than it might be ignored, but one of the chief designers knowing the Ferrari F2007's intricacies for about 3 months means that the team was using the info as long as he was working for them.
No it doesn't automatically mean that. You're making an assumption which ignores 1) that Coughlan & Stepney were looking to move and had meetings with Honda and 2) that McLaren suspended Coughlan as soon as they discovered he was in possession of the documents.

[ArrowsFA1]

Thread continued here - FIA sends spy case to Court of Appeal (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119893)

Because this is a major new development in "Stepneygate" I have started a new thread, and closed this one.