Michigan out for '08

[Komahawk]

MIS won't be on the IRL-schedule next year. Which venue will fill the gap? Will this gap be filled at all?

[-Helix-]

Well, hopefully it will be a road course. Laguna Seca maybe? Although I would've preferred one of the other ovals to be replaced. I actually like MIS.

[BobbyC]

The problem came because the date is too close to the second Sprint Cup date. The IRL race had been a mid-July affair, but because of ESPN's request to move the Allstate 400 NASCAR race to a date close to the MIS open-wheel date, and the forcing of moving the IRL race to early August, that frustrated MIS. They could have gone back-to-back with the MIS race piggybacking Detroit, but that wasn't feasible.

Fontana could get the race, IMO, as a night race. But I could also see another Midwest date such as returning to St. Louis, or a Southwestern date such as Phoenix returning.

ESPN, unfortunately, is hurting all IRL tracks by their date requests, DESPITE giving the IRL better dates and better coverage than NASCAR. Of course, they have to go around the ESPN owned-and-operated sporting events such as the X Games and the Arena Football League.

Michigan would love to be on the schedule, but ESPN is hurting them.

[wedge]

So is this likely to be a one off gap year for MIS?

MIS is one of my fave ovals.

[RGM Fan]

MIS is one of IRL's marquee events, losing/not being able to keep it is a bad thing for the series. The guys at Trackforum have been bitching about this for weeks. Supposedly a spring race at Phenoix is going to be the replacement.

The problem is the between cup dates at Indy and Michigan its hard to find date that would work. The date that would work is given to Mid-Ohio and that's largely at Honda's behest so don't look for that to change anytime soon.

Yes, all the parties are saying that this is only a one-year deal, but unless the Cup schedule changes its going to be a while.

This is another move thats alienating the IRL hard core faithful.

[Chaparral66]

MIS is one of IRL's marquee events, losing/not being able to keep it is a bad thing for the series. The guys at Trackforum have been bitching about this for weeks. Supposedly a spring race at Phenoix is going to be the replacement.

The problem is the between cup dates at Indy and Michigan its hard to find date that would work. The date that would work is given to Mid-Ohio and that's largely at Honda's behest so don't look for that to change anytime soon.

Yes, all the parties are saying that this is only a one-year deal, but unless the Cup schedule changes its going to be a while.

This is another move thats alienating the IRL hard core faithful.

This is why we need to keep the pressure to end the split. AOWR is dying a slow death and we need to stop it now. I put my partisianship aside to come over and say this, but can you imagine Michigan with a 30 car count for a 400-500 mile race? Probably wouldn't be hard to promote that, and that would be a glorious event...

[xander918]

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story/?ID=215359&hubname=auto_racing

[CCFanatic]

I see a street circuit to fill the gap. Tulsa or Biloxi have been rumored for a while to get a race. I do not see a return to any ISC tracks that have been on the schedule. They pretty much tried to kill CART/CCWS, and now are trying to kill the IRL. Fontana was eliminated mostly because for poor attendence(same with MIS) and same with Phoenix. Only 9000 at the 2005 race. Phoenix would be a failure before it even started because you couldn't expect much more fans than were there at the last race, as you have not heard any outrage of large complaints about the race being taken off the schedule. And there have been huge support for CC and Nascar adding the second date.

[gerkebi]

I disagree that MIS wants the IRL at all. The last two times I went, '04 and '05, the track personnel were downright rude. It was obvious that everyone that works there has been poisoned towards the IRL.

Especially in '04, where even though I had a hard card and a team uniform on, I couldn't take my backpack through the gates. Under the guise of "heightened security" they made me throw it out and juggle radio, headphones, sunscreen, etc. in my hands. Plain harrassment, pure and simple. They don't like IRL folks and want to get rid of them.

[RGM Fan]

From what I understand its largely related to the sanctioning fee. The IRL charges anywhere from $750,000 to $1.5 million in sactioning fees and they tried to raise them all uniformly by 6 percent. This could be the start of bad things for the IRL 2008 schedule. Supposedly, Texas is paying $1.5 million for their race, and aren't crazy about a $90,000 increase in their sanctioning fee. If they lose MIS and TMS in the same year, bad things will happen for the IRL.

From what I understand there is some real fear among teams that the series may become unviable in a year or two.

http://www.mlive.com/sportsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/sports-24/118610070156100.xml&storylist=michigansports

[Chaparral66]

Talk about arrogance and bad timing. Your going to raise the sanctioning fee when the sport is on life support and go hardline on the track concerning dates? Not good judgement. If I were Champ Car, I'd swoop in and see if you can work something out with Fontana and Michigan and get at least a couple of ovals back on the schedule. Work with them on dates and make a promotion agreement. Sure, ISC and Champ Car have had issues, but that could be worked out without too much trouble.

[cobre]

i hate to see michigan off the schedule, and hope one day that pocono might be put back on(great race track for indpls. style cars)

[Chaparral66]

i hate to see michigan off the schedule, and hope one day that pocono might be put back on(great race track for indpls. style cars)

I agree. Pocono is one of my favorite racetracks, both for open wheel and NASCAR. I'd like to see open wheel go back, especially a merged series with a30 car count.

[Lee Roy]

The Mattioli Family, who own Pocono, aren't particularly fond of "Indy Car/Open Wheel" racing series due to past association. They're sitting there raking in the money from NASCAR races and I doubt they want the hassle of again dealing with series' that struggle to put fans in the stands.

[Chaparral66]

The Mattioli Family, who own Pocono, aren't particularly fond of "Indy Car/Open Wheel" racing series due to past association. They're sitting there raking in the money from NASCAR races and I doubt they want the hassle of again dealing with series' that struggle to put fans in the stands.

Hard to argue with. Although it's a shame to see a great track like Pocono, where there is so much room for passing and high speeds, host just two major events a year. But as you say, they get plenty of revenue from the two NASCAR races, as well as track rentals and driving schools, so it sounds like they have the business going the way they would like. I just hope the Mattiolis keep it to themselves and remain independent, like Bob Bahre at New Hampshire.

[Mark in Oshawa]

From what I understand its largely related to the sanctioning fee. The IRL charges anywhere from $750,000 to $1.5 million in sactioning fees and they tried to raise them all uniformly by 6 percent. This could be the start of bad things for the IRL 2008 schedule. Supposedly, Texas is paying $1.5 million for their race, and aren't crazy about a $90,000 increase in their sanctioning fee. If they lose MIS and TMS in the same year, bad things will happen for the IRL.

From what I understand there is some real fear among teams that the series may become unviable in a year or two.

http://www.mlive.com/sportsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/sports-24/118610070156100.xml&storylist=michigansports

So let me get this straight. Not only does the IRL feel they have a right to run OW racing on the continent, but they want to raise the fee to have a track host an event? Good lord, this is the PRECISE argument I have used a number of times to why I think Tony George should be locked up. For our protection as fans. The man does NOT understand the business and what he has done to the sport in the last 12 years. If the IRL is putting up sanctioning fee's in this economic climate, I would hate to see what would happen if the series had 30 plus cars and 5 times the fans.....

AS for ISC jerking the IRL, around, well should anyone be really surprised? The ISC is basically NASCAR with a different hat. Yes they are run "independent" of each other, and at times, ISC does things that on the surface would appear to be contrary to NASCAR's best wishes, but NASCAR now has such a stranglehold on scheduling and marketing for many tracks, that the IRL is now out sucking wind, and they have locked out Champ Car entirely (not that Champ Car didn't shoot themselves in the foot at times). The longer neither series is run competently (IRL or CCWS) or run without a merger, the more of this crap that will continue....

[Chaparral66]

So let me get this straight. Not only does the IRL feel they have a right to run OW racing on the continent, but they want to raise the fee to have a track host an event? Good lord, this is the PRECISE argument I have used a number of times to why I think Tony George should be locked up. For our protection as fans. The man does NOT understand the business and what he has done to the sport in the last 12 years. If the IRL is putting up sanctioning fee's in this economic climate, I would hate to see what would happen if the series had 30 plus cars and 5 times the fans.....

AS for ISC jerking the IRL, around, well should anyone be really surprised? The ISC is basically NASCAR with a different hat. Yes they are run "independent" of each other, and at times, ISC does things that on the surface would appear to be contrary to NASCAR's best wishes, but NASCAR now has such a stranglehold on scheduling and marketing for many tracks, that the IRL is now out sucking wind, and they have locked out Champ Car entirely (not that Champ Car didn't shoot themselves in the foot at times). The longer neither series is run competently (IRL or CCWS) or run without a merger, the more of this crap that will continue....

Great comments, absolutely right on the Mark (pun intended). Reading the above, do any of you open wheel fans see how when Tony George started the IRL at the suggestion of Bill France Jr., he was unknowingly playing right into his hands? Even France probably didn't expect this kind of chaos in open wheel racing, but he and NASCAR have absolutely benefitted from it. NASCAR is slowly building a motorsports monopoly not only with cars, teams, and sponsors (how many think Newman/Haas/Lanigan went into partnership with Yates Racing just to "expand their horizons"?), and venues. Thank goodness for Bruton Smith and his racetracks, to say nothing of the Mattiolis and Pocono, and Bob Bahre and New Hampshire, or it might already be here. Many people (media included, Sports Illustrated used to have a monthly column on Motor Sports, now they just call it NASCAR) already use NASCAR as a synonym for motorsports in the US, and that's fine with the folks in Daytona. NASCAR tolerates The Grandson as long as they race at the Brickyard, which is a huge payday. Who's willing to lay odds that ISC hasn't attempted to make an offer to The Hulman family for IMS? I know they would never sell, nor should they, but I betcha it's come up...

Anyway, this just goes to show the the split continues to do NASCAR's work for them. Just by having chaos in AOW, disgruntled fans will naturally flock to the stability that is NASCAR, and drivers such as Patrick Carpantier, Max Papis, and Michel Jourdain, (to say nothing of the even wilder example of Juan Pablo Montoya) to name a few, are looking at it, because that's where the money is nowadays. Just think of Montreal this past Sunday. That may be a window into NASCAR's future. And that trek started in 1996.

Once and for all, it's time for all open wheel fans to see who the real opponent is. Even Bernie E. doesn't see this 800 pond gorilla coming.

[xtlm]

I'm late to this news....so my reaction is from my gut


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[geek49203]

I disagree that MIS wants the IRL at all. The last two times I went, '04 and '05, the track personnel were downright rude. It was obvious that everyone that works there has been poisoned towards the IRL.

Especially in '04, where even though I had a hard card and a team uniform on, I couldn't take my backpack through the gates. Under the guise of "heightened security" they made me throw it out and juggle radio, headphones, sunscreen, etc. in my hands. Plain harrassment, pure and simple. They don't like IRL folks and want to get rid of them.

Uh, I live near the track, and can assure you that is at the insistence of men in dark sunglasses, ear pieces, and very dark suits who show up from Washington DC.

The only time I've had that problem is when I didn't go in through the garage gate. If you come in like a fan, then yes, they're gonna do the airport search thing. In fact, those workers would've been fired if they didn't.

You might want to thank such people for doing their job when you go to the track.

[geek49203]

Didn't anyone read that article I wrote on what went wrong at MIS?

Jeez... why did I bother?

[champcar72]

Talk about arrogance and bad timing. Your going to raise the sanctioning fee when the sport is on life support and go hardline on the track concerning dates? Not good judgement. If I were Champ Car, I'd swoop in and see if you can work something out with Fontana and Michigan and get at least a couple of ovals back on the schedule. Work with them on dates and make a promotion agreement. Sure, ISC and Champ Car have had issues, but that could be worked out without too much trouble.
I agree however Champ car has a history of not jumping at a good thing!

[geek49203]

Talk about arrogance and bad timing. Your going to raise the sanctioning fee when the sport is on life support and go hardline on the track concerning dates? Not good judgement. If I were Champ Car, I'd swoop in and see if you can work something out with Fontana and Michigan and get at least a couple of ovals back on the schedule. Work with them on dates and make a promotion agreement. Sure, ISC and Champ Car have had issues, but that could be worked out without too much trouble.

No one raised any fees. I have that one confirmed by both sides.

And there is no way that the CCWS people will run on the MIS oval, not with their cars having 800 hp and probably able to do 240 on that place. Remember, the CART people HATED MIS, and point to MIS as a great reason to avoid all ovals. At the very least, the CCWS would run a chicane down the back stretch, like the late (lamented) ASA series planned on doing before they imploded, and like CART contemplated in 1998.

The CCWS will no doubt want to use MIS's renovated road course, IF that comes to pass, and IF the CCWS is still around when that gets done (1-2 years at least) then it MIGHT happen.

[RGM Fan]

No one raised any fees. I have that one confirmed by both sides.

The CCWS will no doubt want to use MIS's renovated road course, IF that comes to pass, and IF the CCWS is still around when that gets done (1-2 years at least) then it MIGHT happen.


Do you have support for any of that.

And if the IRL hasn't raised fees why did the associated press quote MIS president Roger Curtis: "I said, 'You're going to charge me more for a date that we don't want? Forget it.' I told them we were going public with our side of the story because we didn't want people to think this was an amicable split."

[geek49203]

I don't know why the AP said that. I've met the AP guys, and on some occasions, they are wrong. I live 25 miles from MIS, and all I know is what they've told me -- directly, in person -- since this broke loose.

Quite frankly, I don't think that the negotiations ever got to the point of asking for a sanctioning fee. The IRL blew it when they didn't/couldn't offer MIS a date they could use, and then turned down every suggestion at changing the event to increase attendance. The event had 2 strikes against it when the IRL failed to return the race to the historic date in July, and their unwillingness to consider promotion options was strike 3.

http://blog.wohlford.net/2007/07/death-of-great-auto-race.html

What else do you want support for? That MIS is renovating the road course?

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't know why the AP said that. I've met the AP guys, and on some occasions, they are wrong. I live 25 miles from MIS, and all I know is what they've told me -- directly, in person -- since this broke loose.

Quite frankly, I don't think that the negotiations ever got to the point of asking for a sanctioning fee. The IRL blew it when they didn't/couldn't offer MIS a date they could use, and then turned down every suggestion at changing the event to increase attendance. The event had 2 strikes against it when the IRL failed to return the race to the historic date in July, and their unwillingness to consider promotion options was strike 3.

http://blog.wohlford.net/2007/07/death-of-great-auto-race.html

What else do you want support for? That MIS is renovating the road course?

That Wohlford Blog article just proves once again why TG and his minions are not up to the job of inherting the mantle of running OW racing on this continent. The MIS events were mismanaged, and god knows CART has their share to blame for the way things have turned out, but the IRL took what was to be a jewel in their crown and buried it. Sometimes, you just have to wonder what kind of idiots we have running OW racing. NASCAR and ALMS will be running the whole racing world soon in North America, because it is obvious the idiots in the IRL offices don't seem to understand their own marketing, their history or where their focus is supposed to be.

[geek49203]

That Wohlford Blog article just proves once again why TG and his minions are not up to the job of inherting the mantle of running OW racing on this continent. The MIS events were mismanaged, and god knows CART has their share to blame for the way things have turned out, but the IRL took what was to be a jewel in their crown and buried it. Sometimes, you just have to wonder what kind of idiots we have running OW racing. NASCAR and ALMS will be running the whole racing world soon in North America, because it is obvious the idiots in the IRL offices don't seem to understand their own marketing, their history or where their focus is supposed to be.

Interestingly enough, the IRL people gave me kudos for that article. They didn't agree with a couple of my conclusions, but they said that I covered a lot of great points that no one else covered (ie, the 1998 fatalities).

[xtlm]

Didn't anyone read that article I wrote on what went wrong at MIS?

Jeez... why did I bother?

no
where is this located?
i would read

[geek49203]

http://blog.wohlford.net/2007/07/dea...auto-race.html

After it fell "beneath the fold" on AutoRacing1.com, I moved it to my blog.

[xtlm]

that link does not work :(

[geek49203]

Jeez... gotta love web postings...

Let's try that URL again:

http://blog.wohlford.net/2007/07/death-of-great-auto-race.html

[Mark in Oshawa]

Geek, it was a good article and you were right to tell that whole story. Michigan put on some great races, but it always seemed like an event that was on borrowed time. Lets face the reality, OW cars at 240mph plus for 500 miles were as dangerous for the spectators perhaps as the drivers.....and I can lament that the day of cars going ever faster is gone, but I understand the insurance issues and safety issues. The Michigan events ran out of steam.

[geek49203]

Geek, it was a good article and you were right to tell that whole story. Michigan put on some great races, but it always seemed like an event that was on borrowed time. Lets face the reality, OW cars at 240mph plus for 500 miles were as dangerous for the spectators perhaps as the drivers.....and I can lament that the day of cars going ever faster is gone, but I understand the insurance issues and safety issues. The Michigan events ran out of steam.

Thanks for your kudos... another forum poster is telling me that I'm full of feces, so on balance I might be a good guy?

As I looked out at the MIS infield today (complete w/ mud, trash, porta-johns and seagulls) I imagined a renovated infield road course. I then looked beyond the back stretch, and imagined the 2 miles of road course "out back" being renovated too. Gosh, wouldn't it be wonderful to have a 12-hour ALMS or GrandAm race in the place of that Indy event?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Geek, if they are putting together the road course there, I suspect Grand Am will be there, if not ALMS. Knowing ISC as I think I do, they will no doubt have Grand AM in there right away because they wouldn't spend the money if the plan wasn't already in the works. I mean, it isn't like Grand Am Management and ISC management cant talk, they are in the same building!!!

[Chaparral66]

Good article, Geek. Right or wrong, that was a sincere opinion you gave, which is what this form is all about. OW is such a mess right now.

[geek49203]

Do you have support for any of that.

And if the IRL hasn't raised fees why did the associated press quote MIS president Roger Curtis: "I said, 'You're going to charge me more for a date that we don't want? Forget it.' I told them we were going public with our side of the story because we didn't want people to think this was an amicable split."

I asked again last weekend -- the negotiations never really got to the point of money. Roger wanted a lowered fee for a "bad" race date, and when that was turned down, Roger allegedly said, "You mean I have to pay full price for that date" or words to that effect.

I stand by my story 100% One of us on here gets his facts straight from the source, the other by quoting the AP.