with F1 gone at Indy.........

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Since F1 no longer will be running the road course at IMS, what are the prospects now for running IndyCars on the road course ???

I will miss F1 at IMS. I got the feeling that Lewis Hamilton was going to own that track the way Schumacher did.

[deadsquirrel]

Since F1 no longer will be running the road course at IMS, what are the prospects now for running IndyCars on the road course ???


Why would they want to do that?

[mark123]

In my opinion, TG doesn't want to run Indy cars on any road course where F1 has or is racing, because it would show up the huge speed difference between the two cars. Sure, Indy cars have the fastest races in the world - because they are the only open wheelers that race on ovals (that much is obvious), but on a road course indycars would be substancially slower then an f1 car. I would guess that on the IMS road course, the difference could be as much as 3 - 5 seconds.

Of course, you can't really compare the two because you could buy the whole 18 car IRL field for the price of the two mclarens - the only similarity between IRL & F1 is that they have no roof.

That said, i would love to see IRL on the road couse at IMS

[Chaparral66]

I don't think it's a good idea to run the IRL cars on the roadcourse. If you did, you almost defeat the reason for seeing them on the oval, and cause some confusion. The Infiniti Series cars ran on the roadcourse when F1 was here, but it was wise to leave it at that.

[mikeearle]

Maybe TG should run the CC's there.... now that would be a show on so many fronts :)

[Chaparral66]

Oh yeah, that'll happen... :P

[ZzZzZz]

It would be funny as hell if TG were to organize a USGP, somehow, with the best from Champ and Indy cars, and be successful. I can picture steam coming out Bernie's ears...

[45 Below]

Why not A1GP?! Bernie is pretty ticked off with them as it is. No, they're not as fast as ICS or CC but they have something of an international flavour and usually put on some good racing ... and they are LOUD!!

Imagine Jonathan Summerton crossing the line first in the Stars and Stripes car.

[ShiftingGears]

Why would they want to do that?

Exactly.

[Komahawk]

In my opinion, TG doesn't want to run Indy cars on any road course where F1 has or is racing, because it would show up the huge speed difference between the two cars. Sure, Indy cars have the fastest races in the world - because they are the only open wheelers that race on ovals (that much is obvious), but on a road course indycars would be substancially slower then an f1 car. I would guess that on the IMS road course, the difference could be as much as 3 - 5 seconds.

Of course, you can't really compare the two because you could buy the whole 18 car IRL field for the price of the two mclarens - the only similarity between IRL & F1 is that they have no roof.

That said, i would love to see IRL on the road couse at IMS

The main reason why Bernie doesn't want to run an oval is because that would show the huge speed difference between those two type of cars, plus that an F1-car probably isn't anywhere near safe enough for an 300+ km/h impact even on a SAFER-barrier.
The IndyCars being much cheaper is a huge advantage of the IRL, even Max Mosley himself has not long ago expressed himself that "customer cars are the future of F1".

Besides, the door for an F1 USGP at Indy isn't closed. Bernie is "considering other options" at this point. I'm sure he'll find a venue/investor who'll gladly sign an agreement to a guaranteed multi-year loss in North America, hint hint.

The IMS roadcourse blows. It's a disgrace to the venue. Get Laguna Sca and Road America on the IRL-schedule.

And BTW, if Bernie cared just a little about motorsport tradition he'd never consider leaving Indianapolis, or threaten to abandon Silverstone once a season. He's sitting on a huge pile of dough and never invests a single penny into the series. But this guy just has his head up his arse. He'd go racing on a nuke testing facility if some dictator sponsored it.

[DavePI2]

I like the idea of the of a a1gp there. I love the idea of another irl race there also. However another race might detract from the 500. Very doubtfull that will ever happen. The bikes will be fun to watch next year, probably bring a bigger crowd also.


David

[mikeearle]

So why not consider putting both CC and the IRL cars on the grid at the same time. Classify each car within its class (irl or CC) and have an overall winner. With 2 classes running at the same time they both could consider it a points race within each series and the overall winner gets say a 1MM check from a sponsor...that is something I would go see, even ahead of the F1 cars...one can dream. Would be a good first step toward a unification as we would finally see a field that is 36+ cars running (at the same time), that would be freakin amazing. Never likely to happen based on one side or the other worrying about being slower than the other but wow, what an event it would be.

[DRC]

I don't know, I can see the IRL on the road course. With the degredation of the I500, it might be worth bringing them back to the road course as the last race of the season. This would certainly solidify Indy as the center of the IRL (not that there's any confusion there, I guess, but I still think it would help). So you'd have the pinnacle race and the end of the season race (and all of the subsequent celebrations and banquets) at the great Indianapolis Motor Speedway. I just think it'd be cool...

[45 Below]

I put up the A1GP suggestion as the one most likely to p*ss off Bernie seeing as he is trying to get an off-season Asia/Pacific based series going.

The biggest problem might be timing. I don't know much about Indy weather but I imagine they would have to schedule it early in the A1GP season - either September or October.

It would be interesting to see the ICS cars run the road course but as DRC suggests you would want to have plenty of separation from the 500 which would probably mean September/October. I don't think you'd want it as a season finale - I think that should be an oval race.

[philipbain]

So why not consider putting both CC and the IRL cars on the grid at the same time. Classify each car within its class (irl or CC) and have an overall winner. With 2 classes running at the same time they both could consider it a points race within each series and the overall winner gets say a 1MM check from a sponsor...that is something I would go see, even ahead of the F1 cars...one can dream. Would be a good first step toward a unification as we would finally see a field that is 36+ cars running (at the same time), that would be freakin amazing. Never likely to happen based on one side or the other worrying about being slower than the other but wow, what an event it would be.

I love the idea but all it would really show is how much faster a Champ Car is than an IRL car on a road course, it would also show how much better Champ Car brakes are too (which apparently is considerably better!). In this siuation you would get the Pacific Coast and Dale Coyne cars lapping the likes of Andretti-Green, Ganassi and Penske!

Though amusingly Penske still have thier Champ Cars and still run them, thier circa 2002 "Renske" cars (Reynard chassis kitted out with Penske suspension and aero tweaks) are used to give Sam Hornish Junior road course practice as he's otherwise inexperienced on them and the Indycar calendar has an increasing amount of them. The reason that they don't use the Indycar for these runs is that Indycar testing is very restricted in the pursuit of cost savings.

[Jag_Warrior]

The main reason why Bernie doesn't want to run an oval is because that would show the huge speed difference between those two type of cars <snip>

If running an oval, the Formula One cars would likely be trimmed out for just that purpose. And if fully trimmed out, there likely would be a huge speed difference... favoring the Formula One cars. Think about it, unlike spec IRL or CCWS cars, Formula One cars are changed as the course requires (and the rules permit).

Safety aside, my guess is the main reason that Bernie (and the FIA) wouldn't go for an oval is there's no reason for F1 cars to race on ovals. It's not what (modern) F1 is about. For the same reason, I don't think we'll see IRL or CCWS cars racing on dirt anytime soon either.

I'm really sorry that I never made it to Indy for the USGP. I think it would have been a good time (except for that one sad year). It clearly wasn't a great configuration, but it was said to provide good overall spectator sight lines.

[Jag_Warrior]

So why not consider putting both CC and the IRL cars on the grid at the same time. Classify each car within its class (irl or CC) and have an overall winner. With 2 classes running at the same time they both could consider it a points race within each series and the overall winner gets say a 1MM check from a sponsor...that is something I would go see, even ahead of the F1 cars...one can dream. Would be a good first step toward a unification as we would finally see a field that is 36+ cars running (at the same time), that would be freakin amazing. Never likely to happen based on one side or the other worrying about being slower than the other but wow, what an event it would be.

You might even find a way to equalize them enough to make such a thing possble.

But any such idea provides a glimmer of hope for the state of AOWR. This cannot be allowed! Stop doing that! This pony must be ridden into the round. Ride it til it drops and dies! It must not be fed or watered. Both sides must continue to claim that their plan is THE plan, and there is no need to work together.

Whenever I post on AOWR boards, I just try to keep in mind that anything that makes sense or might help the sport regain some of its lost glory... WILL NOT HAPPEN. And I'm sorry to say, over the past two or three years, that rule of thumb has worked pretty well.

[Komahawk]

If running an oval, the Formula One cars would likely be trimmed out for just that purpose. And if fully trimmed out, there likely would be a huge speed difference... favoring the Formula One cars. Think about it, unlike spec IRL or CCWS cars, Formula One cars are changed as the course requires (and the rules permit).

Safety aside, my guess is the main reason that Bernie (and the FIA) wouldn't go for an oval is there's no reason for F1 cars to race on ovals. It's not what (modern) F1 is about. For the same reason, I don't think we'll see IRL or CCWS cars racing on dirt anytime soon either.

I'm really sorry that I never made it to Indy for the USGP. I think it would have been a good time (except for that one sad year). It clearly wasn't a great configuration, but it was said to provide good overall spectator sight lines.

LOL, last year the Honda F1 was the first F1 EVER to hit 400 km/h in somewhere in Utah on an endless straight! They'd NEVER make the 230 mph at Indy! And no F1'd survive an oval crash! Modern F1 is about clicking a few buttons and traction-control, and no passing allowed.

[Jag_Warrior]

LOL, last year the Honda F1 was the first F1 EVER to hit 400 km/h in somewhere in Utah on an endless straight! They'd NEVER make the 230 mph at Indy! And no F1'd survive an oval crash! Modern F1 is about clicking a few buttons and traction-control, and no passing allowed.

Simple question: what was the aero configuration of the Honda F1 car? Another simple question: what gears was the Honda running? Formula One cars have an approximate 100 horsepower advantage over IRL cars. I don't know the current weight of an IRL car, but I'll assume it's in the same range as a CCWS car. So the weight advantage of the F1 car is in the 300 pound range... give or take? Unless the FIA decided to limit the speed (with gearing, wings or other requirements), what makes you think a lighter, more powerful car would be slower than a heavier, less powerful car? :confused: And considering that if F1 was to come to an oval, I'd say they'd develop an oval (aero, gearing and engine) package (which does not now exist AFAIK). I doubt they'd show up with a package meant for road course racing.

F1 cars may or may not survive an oval crash. I don't know. No question, that is not what they are NOW designed to withstand (why would they be???). But I don't know for a fact that they would not, and neither do you... unless you've done some crash testing while Ron Dennis wasn't minding the store.

As for the "no passing allowed" and other fan boi comments... whatever gets you through the night. :rolleyes:

[call_me_andrew]

Champ Car on the roval is a fun idea, but I'm afraid it will stay an idea.

MotoGP at Indy WILL suck. Have you seen the layout change?

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m315/mustang6172/badindy.jpg

EDIT: Obviously NOT to scale.

[Madmonk]

I have no inside knowledge, these are only suggestions to the powers that be on what to do with the roadcourse:

1) A Modern Day Race of Two Worlds similar to the one held at Monza in 1958. Bring all the Champ Cars and Indycars to the IMS road course with air restrictors and weights to even the playing field. Offer a 1 million dollar purse to the fastest Champ Car and a 1 million dollar purse to the fastest Indycar, plus an additional bonus for the overall winner. Bankroll some NASCAR ringers including Juan Pablo Montoya, Tony Stewart, A.J. Allmendinger, Casey Mears, etc. Throw in some Tradin' Paint exhibitions where drivers sample each others cars.

2) Offer a non points off season Formula 1 race with the sanctioning fee divided amongst the teams. But with the exception of weight, no aero rules apply. Teams can bring whatever they want and even run three cars to try out new drivers for the coming season. It would be more useful than testing, and the manufacturers would get their exposure in the American marketplace.

3) A weeklong ALMS/Grand AM extravaganza. The first endurance sportscar event to host both series in the same week. What's more, run the event in conjunction with the SCCA Valvoline run-offs, making IMS the center of the sportscar world.

4) Get the Race of Champions (previously held in France and the Canary Islands). It can be staged in the RCA Dome before they tear it down as a one year hold over, until F1 returns or somebody picks up my other ideas.

Or do all four options and make me very happy.

[Komahawk]

Simple question: what was the aero configuration of the Honda F1 car? Another simple question: what gears was the Honda running? Formula One cars have an approximate 100 horsepower advantage over IRL cars. I don't know the current weight of an IRL car, but I'll assume it's in the same range as a CCWS car. So the weight advantage of the F1 car is in the 300 pound range... give or take? Unless the FIA decided to limit the speed (with gearing, wings or other requirements), what makes you think a lighter, more powerful car would be slower than a heavier, less powerful car? :confused: And considering that if F1 was to come to an oval, I'd say they'd develop an oval (aero, gearing and engine) package (which does not now exist AFAIK). I doubt they'd show up with a package meant for road course racing.

F1 cars may or may not survive an oval crash. I don't know. No question, that is not what they are NOW designed to withstand (why would they be???). But I don't know for a fact that they would not, and neither do you... unless you've done some crash testing while Ron Dennis wasn't minding the store.

As for the "no passing allowed" and other fan boi comments... whatever gets you through the night. :rolleyes:


You ASSUME that F1 will come up with an oval-suited aero package. Whatever.

The Honda was going for maximum speed. Why else would they run a 10 mile (or so) straight? Which gears? Well, uhm, like...highest gear? With max rpm?They achieved like 403 km/h. Fact. Besides, I doubt that Honda put on the Monaco aero package that day.
The IRL cars are heavier and have less horsepower. Still, without the rpm-limiter, they'd get far beyond 400 km/h on an endless straight. You might want to talk to an engineer, but a heavier car with less hp doesn't neccessarily have to have a lower maximum speed.


I'll return "fan boi"-comment. If you get off on gearshifting per clicking a button and traction- as well as launch-control you just have a distorted idea of auto racing. Take your Scott Speed signature base-cap to the F1-board, pal.

[45 Below]

For the record Honda managed an unofficial 266mph pass at Mojave Airport after their first serious attempt at Bonneville had been rained off.

http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/news-racing/rained-out-at-bonneville-bar-honda-unofficially-sets-f1-speed-record-at-mojave-airport-136248.php

When they went to Bonneville they ran a car that was close to F1 legal spec - including F1 tyres which create a lot of drag on the salt. The only mod was an upright fin at the rear rather than the normal wing.

They managed one 400kph pass but their best average was in the mid 397s.

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/07/21/honda-f1-sets-land-speed-records-at-bonneville/

There's a bit of background information about their shakedown visit to the salt if you scroll down this page too. Miles isn't an F1 man but he gets a bit of useful info.

http://www.indyracereports.com/2005/Art ... lleAug.htm (http://www.indyracereports.com/2005/Articles/BARHondaAtB'villeAug.htm)

[mark123]

The main reason why Bernie doesn't want to run an oval is because that would show the huge speed difference between those two type of cars, plus that an F1-car probably isn't anywhere near safe enough for an 300+ km/h impact even on a SAFER-barrier.
The IndyCars being much cheaper is a huge advantage of the IRL, even Max Mosley himself has not long ago expressed himself that "customer cars are the future of F1".

Besides, the door for an F1 USGP at Indy isn't closed. Bernie is "considering other options" at this point. I'm sure he'll find a venue/investor who'll gladly sign an agreement to a guaranteed multi-year loss in North America, hint hint.

The IMS roadcourse blows. It's a disgrace to the venue. Get Laguna Sca and Road America on the IRL-schedule.

And BTW, if Bernie cared just a little about motorsport tradition he'd never consider leaving Indianapolis, or threaten to abandon Silverstone once a season. He's sitting on a huge pile of dough and never invests a single penny into the series. But this guy just has his head up his arse. He'd go racing on a nuke testing facility if some dictator sponsored it.

I never suggested that F1 should run on the oval.

[Jag_Warrior]

You ASSUME that F1 will come up with an oval-suited aero package. Whatever.

Well, if you're going to assume that F1 would run on an oval... yeah, I'd make the crazy assumption that they'd run an oval package... since the race would be on an oval. Call it an assumption based on history. Do I think they ever will? Uh... noooo. Again, why would F1 run ovals? But if they did, even Homer Simpson could figure out that they would run a course specific setup.


The Honda was going for maximum speed. Why else would they run a 10 mile (or so) straight? Which gears? Well, uhm, like...highest gear? With max rpm?They achieved like 403 km/h. Fact. Besides, I doubt that Honda put on the Monaco aero package that day.

I think they ran the course to set a world speed record for an F1 car... which would be recognized by the FIA. And that's what they did. The car was "race legal" by 2005 FIA standards.
http://www.carbuyersnotebook.com/archives/hondaf1.jpg

What the Bonneville run demonstrated was how fast an FIA LEGAL Honda with the 2005 F1 package would run over a given straight line distance. It says nothing at all about what an F1 car would do in some make believe oval setting.


The IRL cars are heavier and have less horsepower. Still, without the rpm-limiter, they'd get far beyond 400 km/h on an endless straight. You might want to talk to an engineer, but a heavier car with less hp doesn't neccessarily have to have a lower maximum speed.

No, not if the lighter more powerful car was aero or gearing limited. Otherwise... :dozey: And if you'd need to modify the heavier car out of its legal state to prove the point, exactly what would you be proving? I bet if you gave a Dallara-Honda a 200 shot of nitrous, it could really show that ol' F1 car a thang or three. :D


I'll return "fan boi"-comment. If you get off on gearshifting per clicking a button and traction- as well as launch-control you just have a distorted idea of auto racing. Take your Scott Speed signature base-cap to the F1-board, pal.

I get off on seeing the best of the best do their best. But life ain't fair, and neither is F1. And just as traction control is now out of the IRL (right? ;) ), launch control is now out of F1. Next year, traction control is also set to go away. Yes, F1 is quite techy, but it's also a form of motorsport which requires more than just holding the go fast peddle to the floor and hoping that you don't break the momentum. Scott Speed? I don't know much about Scott Speed. Can't say I'm much of a fan based on what I do know. Now, I have met Milka Duno on several occasions though. Nice woman. Quite easy on the eyes. Can't drive a nail, but I still like her. Did she race this weekend? No? Maybe she was prepping her car for some sort of high speed run... in a straight line. Maybe that's her true calling.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Still has me singing "M I C K E Y...... M....O....U....S....E!!!!!!!" Bikes look better with more fast sweeping corners. Sad, because a lot of the sight lines and some of the first few corners I do like.

AS for f1 ever racing at Indy again, unless Bernie changes his mind, pigs will fly first. As for the IRL and Champ Car sharing the road coruse, again, when pigs fly, or a merger.

Jag has a point, if either series is presented with a chance to do what is best for the sport, or each other, they have tended to run the other way from it, because it always means someone might have to give up something in the short term.

This short term management style is leading to a long term disease.....indifference of the fans....

[nigelred5]

So why not consider putting both CC and the IRL cars on the grid at the same time.

Bingo.

[DBell]

That new track layout has mouse ears all over it. If CC or the IRL want a new road race why pick a oval track when there is a excellant new course in Utah. Try to make some new fans in a new market at a top notch track. I've yet to see a road course at an oval I thought much of.

[ZzZzZz]

That new track layout has mouse ears all over it. If CC or the IRL want a new road race why pick a oval track when there is a excellant new course in Utah. Try to make some new fans in a new market at a top notch track. I've yet to see a road course at an oval I thought much of.

The only reason is location location location. Same reason F1 went there.

[DBell]

The only reason is location location location. Same reason F1 went there.

True, but also because TG would pay the high fee. With what BE wants now, I think this was the last USGP ever.

[mark123]

That new track layout has mouse ears all over it. If CC or the IRL want a new road race why pick a oval track when there is a excellant new course in Utah. Try to make some new fans in a new market at a top notch track. I've yet to see a road course at an oval I thought much of.

How about the twin ring Moteg (in Japan). that has a great road course.

[mikeearle]

True, but also because TG would pay the high fee. With what BE wants now, I think this was the last USGP ever.

I do believe there is some potential with the Denver location. Would be a world class track and a relationship with BE already exists. Don't be too suprised to see the F1 US Grand Prix arrive in the state of Colorado in the next 2 years.

[DBell]

How about the twin ring Moteg (in Japan). that has a great road course.

Good one. I stand corrected. However, that layout is much different, I believe, than the way American ovals are. But your quite right, that's an excellent track.

[DBell]

I do believe there is some potential with the Denver location. Would be a world class track and a relationship with BE already exists. Don't be too suprised to see the F1 US Grand Prix arrive in the state of Colorado in the next 2 years.

I would love to see that, but my thing is who is going to pay the 30 Mil a year to Bernie and be willing to lose 15- 20 of that doing it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I do believe there is some potential with the Denver location. Would be a world class track and a relationship with BE already exists. Don't be too suprised to see the F1 US Grand Prix arrive in the state of Colorado in the next 2 years.

You from Colorado? You must be.....I haven't heard anyone talk about f1 going to Denver. Trust me, Bernie will go anywhere if the cash is right, but it is 30 mill to get the race, and that is assuming you have the facilities up to the f1 standard, which is ridiculously posh compared to any other standard that Champ Car or Indy Car would use. We just saw the last USGP unless Bernie drops his "standard".

[call_me_andrew]

That's all? 30 million? Knowing Bernie, I was expecting about 4 times that amount.

[mikeearle]

You from Colorado? You must be.....I haven't heard anyone talk about f1 going to Denver. Trust me, Bernie will go anywhere if the cash is right, but it is 30 mill to get the race, and that is assuming you have the facilities up to the f1 standard, which is ridiculously posh compared to any other standard that Champ Car or Indy Car would use. We just saw the last USGP unless Bernie drops his "standard".

Mark, live in Colorado now, originally from Halifax, NS (raced for years at AMP in OW). Still very involved in racing with both FBMW and IPS. The owners of the Av's/Rockies are seriously considering a new track east of the city close the airport... rumor has it that this will be built to F1 standards and may host CC at some point. There is soccor money tied up in this deal between the potential owner of the new track and Bernie. There is some intersting dealing happening to make the whole soccer deal happen and part of it is tied to granting the US F1 rights for something substantially lower than the 30M BE usually expects... which is certainly a hose job if you ask me. Would be just as happy to see the track built and then CC run on it.. and oh yeah it is right in my back yard so a place to go play.

[Placid]

I would prefer the next USGP held in Road America or Miller Motorsports Park in Tooele, Utah.

And what about Motor City's Belle Isle?