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Mark
10th July 2007, 12:05
Since we've had Hamilton sucessfully step up from GP2, has that now cemented its position as the true feeder series?

For a while we had the tendancy to take drivers straight out of Formula 3, or even Formula Renault,, with the F3000/GP2 drivers just ending up in testing roles, or nothing at all.

baker
10th July 2007, 16:34
Not just Hamilton either. Last year Rosberg went straight to a race seat while Kovaleinen spent a year testing before being promoted this year. And Piquet junior could well get a race drive next year.

So, yes it does look like GP2 is now regarded as the true feeder series. It's certainly the best 'shop window' for the competing drivers, being a support race for the majority of GPs.

Sleeper
10th July 2007, 17:48
GP2 is a much stronger series than F3000 has been since the late 90's, indeed its last few years were pathetic to say the least, with only a couple of decent drivers in its ranks (non of which got to F1). The big difference is is that its got a lot of support from the FIA, Bernie and Renault. With people and groups like that backing it, plus a very well designed car from Dallara that allows for proper racing, many of the best teams from around Europe (ASM (ART), Super Nova, Arden, Racing Engineering etc) and having imedietly attracted many of the best up-and-comers from the lower ranks it was always going to take the position as the leading feeder series.

ChickenMcNugget
10th July 2007, 23:14
Is there not the possibility that this is around the stage at which, what with such lavish praise so now timely surrounding it, GP2 begins to suffer some kind of 'Super 1600/JWRC Syndrome', of suddenly struggling to pump any new starlets into F1 at all, by simple virtue of the fact that a million potential talents into 21/22 grid slots "will not go"? :\ I'm a little surprised that such a point hasn't more often been made given that it's generally taken as granted that far more new ideas/series can sparkle while still in their excitable 'honeymoon period', than can ever possibly last.

The warning signs are apparent enough this season - with Glock having long already lost the sheen of a complete unknown fledgling in the manner that Rosberg, Kovalainen and Hamilton obviously had, with many others winning races but failing to assert any other kind of decisive and discernible dominance.

If I'm proven wrong, then so be it.

Sleeper
11th July 2007, 15:28
Well, yes, its a possibility and this years grid certainly doesnt have the same level of quality as the last couple of years, but it is very entertaining andplenty of money is going into it, and regardless of the space available in F1, the team bosses are watching the series far more closely than they ever did with F3000.

ArrowsFA1
11th July 2007, 17:41
The big difference is is that its got a lot of support from the FIA, Bernie and Renault.
That's key :up: Bernie has realised that a strong GP2 series can only help F1, both in terms of driver progression, and a good race weekend package supporting F1.

In the 'good old days' of F2 we used to have F1 drivers competing against the rising stars and I'd love to see that happen again :cool: Not going to though :dozey:

patnicholls
12th July 2007, 01:04
Is there not the possibility that this is around the stage at which, what with such lavish praise so now timely surrounding it, GP2 begins to suffer some kind of 'Super 1600/JWRC Syndrome', of suddenly struggling to pump any new starlets into F1 at all, by simple virtue of the fact that a million potential talents into 21/22 grid slots "will not go"? :\ I'm a little surprised that such a point hasn't more often been made given that it's generally taken as granted that far more new ideas/series can sparkle while still in their excitable 'honeymoon period', than can ever possibly last.

The warning signs are apparent enough this season - with Glock having long already lost the sheen of a complete unknown fledgling in the manner that Rosberg, Kovalainen and Hamilton obviously had, with many others winning races but failing to assert any other kind of decisive and discernible dominance.

If I'm proven wrong, then so be it.

Good point about there being a limited number of grid slots in F1 to play for for the guys in GP2 (and Renault WS, Champ Car, Euro F3000, A1GP, et al), although the counter point could be made that the success of the three guys from GP2 and Kubica from Renault WS proves that it's not much of a risk to pluck someone from out of them and get them in a front-running car in F1.

There are a lot of guys on the F1 grid who've been around earning big salaries for a decade or more - if teams find young drivers who'll drive for less and do just as good a job (like Kubica vs Villeneueve), they'll go for them instead. There are probably a few drivers in F1 now looking over their shoulder anxiously at the GP2 front-runners...

Sleeper
12th July 2007, 03:41
That's key :up: Bernie has realised that a strong GP2 series can only help F1, both in terms of driver progression, and a good race weekend package supporting F1.

In the 'good old days' of F2 we used to have F1 drivers competing against the rising stars and I'd love to see that happen again :cool: Not going to though :dozey:
The Renault part is just as important as well as its them who are doing a lot of promotion for it, and thats going to attract the sponsors.

Speedworx
12th July 2007, 15:34
GP2 is a great series. Good for drivers to showcase themselves in front of F1 teams. Great series for fans to watch.

Its the feeder series F1 has been needing that F3000 couldn't fulfill.

ChickenMcNugget
12th July 2007, 21:33
Good point about there being a limited number of grid slots in F1 to play for for the guys in GP2 (and Renault WS, Champ Car, Euro F3000, A1GP, et al), although the counter point could be made that the success of the three guys from GP2 and Kubica from Renault WS proves that it's not much of a risk to pluck someone from out of them and get them in a front-running car in F1.

There are a lot of guys on the F1 grid who've been around earning big salaries for a decade or more - if teams find young drivers who'll drive for less and do just as good a job (like Kubica vs Villeneueve), they'll go for them instead. There are probably a few drivers in F1 now looking over their shoulder anxiously at the GP2 front-runners...

That's true. I suppose all we need is for this present 'cultural moment' of preferring young drivers to continue unabated, and the average length of an average F1 career could yet be shortened dramatically from what has been the case in the past - some of the early-season Heidfeld rumours (ie., that he could have been poised to be the next German to actually leave the sport after Schumacher) do spring to mind when considering that subject. Plus, the known wishes of both Alonso and Raikkonen to retire at some point whilst "still young". :|

The 'official feeder series' tag will hopefully keep it prominent in its role as precisely that, at least for a number of years yet.

jens
13th July 2007, 21:29
GP2 is closer to F1 than F3000 ever was and is simply a better platform for young drivers to get into F1. If I remember correctly, then F3000 engines had about 400 HP-s, but current GP2 engines have 600 HP-s. F3000 cars lost about 20 seconds (depended on circuit) to F1 cars per lap, the loss of GP2 cars is about half of that. So... without any doubt GP2 is a strong series and who is successful there, tends to do well in F1, but most of the F3000 champions never achieved the predicted success in F1 (if they even participated).

Stuartf12007
14th July 2007, 01:52
I really enjoy GP2, the racing is actually better than F1.

I am looking forward to hopefully seeing Nico Hulkenberg come over from A1GP to GP2

Copse
6th August 2007, 20:54
GP2 is closer to F1 than F3000 ever was and is simply a better platform for young drivers to get into F1. If I remember correctly, then F3000 engines had about 400 HP-s, but current GP2 engines have 600 HP-s. F3000 cars lost about 20 seconds (depended on circuit) to F1 cars per lap, the loss of GP2 cars is about half of that. So... without any doubt GP2 is a strong series and who is successful there, tends to do well in F1, but most of the F3000 champions never achieved the predicted success in F1 (if they even participated).

IMO, the technichal advantage of GP2 over F3000 is almost irrelevant, as the general feeling of this thread suggests. F3000 champs from latter years didn't succeed in F1, because they never got the chance. And that was all because of the perception of the series to not have strong fields or be a good measure of a driver's capabilities. A F3000 win wasn't worthless because the cars were slower than F1 cars, but beacuse decisionmakers believed that you hadn't beaten anybody with talent anyway.

The embracing from Bernie and Renault is what made the difference for GP2. That, and the fresh start with fields full of up-and-comers.

There is quite some risk that GP2 will start sinking into that bog as this season comes to an end. With people like Glock and Pantano among the front runners, and no one making any great impressions.

Next year, who's going to be impressed by a guy beating the likes of Lapierre, Tahinchi or Negrao, who'll have been journeymen for three seasons by then?

Mark
7th August 2007, 11:13
Would you agree that, as far as F1 team managers are concerned that if you have gotten to the end of 2 years in GP2 and you haven't won it or at least done well, then you aren't worth considering for F1?

Copse
7th August 2007, 17:21
Would you agree that, as far as F1 team managers are concerned that if you have gotten to the end of 2 years in GP2 and you haven't won it or at least done well, then you aren't worth considering for F1?

Definitely.

And that is a major part of my point. The switch from F3000 to GP2 cleared these guys out of the ranks, but as we're approaching the end of year 3 for GP2, I get the feeling that more and more of them (drivers who've tried for a couple of years but failed) will be making up the fields there as well. The result; lower status for the entire GP2 series, including the winners.

pits4me
7th August 2007, 17:42
Would you agree that, as far as F1 team managers are concerned that if you have gotten to the end of 2 years in GP2 and you haven't won it or at least done well, then you aren't worth considering for F1?

So much still depends on getting a competitive seat these days. I guess it depends on what's intended by done well?

There may be occassions where promotions are limited. Its not every year a driver leaves for NASCAR or is put out to pasture.

Sleeper
18th August 2007, 21:01
Definitely.

And that is a major part of my point. The switch from F3000 to GP2 cleared these guys out of the ranks, but as we're approaching the end of year 3 for GP2, I get the feeling that more and more of them (drivers who've tried for a couple of years but failed) will be making up the fields there as well. The result; lower status for the entire GP2 series, including the winners.
F3000 was dead on its feet for its last few years and bears little or no comparison. The switch didnt clear out the old F3000 drivers, it was a case of GP2 sudenly coming along as the most desirable feeder series going with far more promotion and interest making it a far easier sell to sponsors. There are very few, probably no, drivers that stay for more than a few races without money. The likes of Tahinci and Negrao are still their because they have money but up and comers are more likely to go their as they can ell themsleves and the intention to race in the series to sponsors better. The top seats are always hotley contested in the off season by the newcomers and the best of the previous rookies.

Kata89
19th August 2007, 12:43
I don't think it's just Hamilton - it's GP2 in general that is more regarded than F3000 was.
Look at the top 3 in the 2005 championship - now Rosberg in F1, Kova in F1, Speed had 1,5 years of F1.
The top 3 of last year - Hamilton in F1, Piquet will get to F1 for sure, Premat - well, I doubt he'll ever reach F1, but still, if you're up there in GP2, you have big chances for a F1 seat.
This wasn't the case in F3000.

ArrowsFA1
24th August 2007, 15:46
A quick look at the F3000 champions:

1985 - Christian Danner
1986 - Ivan Capelli
1987 - Stefan Modena
1988 - Roberto Moreno
1989 - Jean Alesi
1990 - Erik Comas
1991 - Christian Fittipaldi
1992 - Luca Badoer
1993 - Oliver Panis
1994 - Jean-Christophe Boullion
1995 - Vincenzo Sospiri
1996 - Jorg Muller
1997 - Ricardo Zonta
1998 - Juan Pablo Montoya
1999 - Nick Heidfeld
2000 - Bruno Junqueira
2001 - Justin Wilson
2002 - Sebastian Bourdais
2003 - Bjorn Wirdheim
2004 - Vitantonio Liuzzi

Not a bad list of talent, although there are a couple of "where are they now's" :dozey:

patnicholls
13th September 2007, 02:21
It will be interesting to see what happens at the end of this year re: the F1 status of some or all of the following: Jarno, Ralf, Giancarlo, Mark Webber, Tonio Liuzzi, and even Rubens.

Renault have Nelsinho Piquet sitting in the wings (a product of GP2 - he ran Lewis close - and with a year's F1 testing under his belt). Toyota, as a German-based team may have a look at Timo Glock or give Kazuki Nakajima a whirl (he's been testing for Williams).

As we've seen, there's plenty of young talent waiting to fill those seats when the moment arrives.

re: the point on drivers languishing in GP2 for a few years, well I don't see much of a problem really. If you're a Giorgio Pantano or an Adam Carroll, you're a good measure of competition. Only the top couple of guys will be being looked at by F1 teams purely because of the limited number of spots available there. Money-bringing grid fillers like Tahinci, etc tend to sink fairly easily in a deep field like GP2 and there's only a couple of guys in that position, so it's not a problem. I believe most drivers in GP2 have to bring some money, but in the vast majority of cases there's talent to go with it. Even guys like Andy Soucek - who's really struggled and not scored a point - had an excellent pedigree in WSbR last year.

And, how quiet is this forum? We need to get some more folk in here - GP2's the best car racing around!

Mikeall
30th September 2007, 16:49
Well Glock is a BMW test driver, Nakajima is a Williams test driver, di Grassi probably will be a Renault test driver and Fillippi will be a Ferrari test driver. The rest are either too experienced or need another season before standing out.

FIA
30th September 2007, 20:52
I love GP2, drivers like Rosberg, Kovalainen, Speed, and (Of Course) Hamilton, have been promoted. Old F1 drivers like Bruni, Pizzonia and Pantano, have been involed. Also unknown drivers like Karajainen, Niemela and Martinez, are ahowing potential.

In all it makes a great Racing Catergory, very exciting!

Osella
29th November 2007, 00:36
A quick look at the F3000 champions:

1985 - Christian Danner - Raced DTM/ITC with Alfa Romeo, and Indycars in early 90's
1986 - Ivan Capelli - F1 career fizzled out in '93 (with Jordan..), nowadays occasional GT outings
1987 - Stefan Modena - F1 Career fizzled out after '92 (with Jordan..) then went to Indycars, then DTM/ITC with Alfa Romeo, then ITCC/ETCC with Alfa until 2001ish
1988 - Roberto Moreno - Went to Indycars, then back to F1, where his career fizzled out in '91 (with Jordan..) then back to Indycars, then F1 again with Forti Corse in '95, then back to Indy/CART where he was 'supersub' from 2001-2005, now an irregualr CART tester
1989 - Jean Alesi - F1 until 2001 when hsi career fizzled out (with Jordan..) then DTM until last year, nowadays in SPEEDCAR.
1990 - Erik Comas - F1 until '95 where Larrousse closed down pre-season, tested for DAMS F1 then raced in and won JGTC title twice. JGTC until 2004/5, nowadays helping his son in FBMW UK.
1991 - Christian Fittipaldi - F1 until '95 with Arrows, then CART with Newman/Haas, then NASCAR Busch series until 2003, with occasional Cup series starts, raced Brazilian stock cars, then Daytona Prototypes and for 2008 is racing in the ALMS for AGR Acura.
1992 - Luca Badoer - in F1 93/96/97 99 when his career fizzled out (with Minardi..) since has been a longterm Ferrari F1 test driver.
1993 - Oliver Panis - F1 win in 1995, in F1 until 2002 with BAR, including a stint as a highly-regarded test driver. Then sporadically raced in French GT's as well as fulfilling the Martin Brundle role on French TV.
1994 - Jean-Christophe Boullion - F1 '95 until '97 (with Sauber), then raced for Renault in BTCC in '99, nowadays a sportscar star in Le Mans/LMS races for Pescarolo having raced in the ISRS in the late 90's
1995 - Vincenzo Sospiri - Raced in Indycar briefly in mid 90's, then ISRS in Ferrari 333SP, won the championship twice and a Le Mans regular. Also raced sporadically ALMS/FIA GT's with Ferrari, Semi-retired due to long-term back injuries from ISRS sportscar racing. Also runs the Euronova team in partnership with David Sears/Supernova.
1996 - Jorg Muller - Le Mans racer with BMW, BMW test driver in 1999 using Williams-BMW test mule chassis, almost win Le Mans and ALMS in late 90's/early 2000's, subsequently ETCC/WTCC racer with Schnitzer BMW.
1997 - Ricardo Zonta - Works Mercedes sportscar racer until sacking after '99 Le Mans debacle (along with Mark Webber) F1 career with BAR, since been an F1 test driver and sporadic sportscar racer.
1998 - Juan Pablo Montoya - CART champion in 1999, runner up in 2000, F1 until 2006 with McLaren, then switched to NASCAR, winning Rookie of the year in 2007.
1999 - Nick Heidfeld - F1 with Prost/Sauber/Jordan/BMW until present
2000 - Bruno Junqueira - CART with Ganassi/Newman Haas/Dale Coyne until present.
2001 - Justin Wilson - Brief F1 stint with Jaguar, followed by CART championship until present.
2002 - Sebastian Bourdais - CART until present, winning four consecutive championships 2004-2007, F1 bound 'in '08.
2003 - Bjorn Wirdheim - Jaguar test driver for 2 years, raced in FNippon/JGTC and CART, subsequently in limbo at present
2004 - Vitantonio Liuzzi - F1 until 2007 with Red Bull/Torro Rosso, currently seeking F1 employment.

Not a bad list of talent, although there are a couple of "where are they now's" :dozey:

So apart from Modena, Wirdheim and Capelli, all are accounted for and are either now retired or still (mostly) competitively racing ;)

Nikki Katz
29th November 2007, 12:46
I think there's only so many years that F1 can take a handful of GP2 drivers entering the field. GP2's been fun to watch this year, but there's been some erratic driving. I don't even know who's going to be in GP2 next year, but unless the championship's won by someone like Senna I think that the winner would have trouble jumping straight into an F1 seat.
As shown by the list, there have been a number of F3000 successes in F1, but many more didn't really make an impression (Boullion) or didn't arrive at all (Muller, Sospiri other than the Lola attempt).
Just so long as it doesn't turn into the final couple of years of F3000. What did happen to Wirdheim? Last I heard he was doing not too well in Formula Nippon, which isn't exactly a highly regarded series.

Osella
5th December 2007, 14:09
Are you kidding?!? Nippon is generally held pretty highly, Michael and Ralf Schumacher raced in it, as did Irvine, Frentzen, Takagi etc... Okay that was a few years ago, but when you look at the drivers that have passed through it recently and there is a lof of talent, it's only really in the last 2 years that it has slowed a bit.

As for Wirdheim, I think he is looking towards Champ Car for next year again, but is currently out of a deal.

Osella
5th December 2007, 14:18
It is also worth looking at the context of where these drivers go, exaxctly...
Those who made it to F1; Danner, Capelli, Modena, Panis, Bouillon, Sospiri, Rosset, Heidfeld, Zonta, Badoer, Fittipaldi, Hill, Comas, Alesi, Moreno and so many more all made it to F1 with smaller teams, and excepting Heidfeld and Zonta, they made it when F1 had 32 or so cars!!!

This is the problem, there's nowhere for them to go. Teams these days are locked-in, and so unwilling to take too much of a risk, hence why drivers like Wirdheim and Bourdais miss out, and drivers like Wilson are swiftly cast out. If F1 still had those 'embarrassing' teams, then we could see drives like Alesi on 1990, or Wendlinger in 1993, or Capelli in 1989/1990 again. Okay, we get the odd performance once in a blue moon, but just look at guys like Fittipaldi in F1, several 4th places with teams like Minardi and Footwork!! Okay these days that's more like the occasional 8th place given the reliability of the top teams, but to finish 4th in a 30-car field in a Minardi is pretty special, and it's a shame we cannot see that sort of performance any more given the restrictive nature of the 12-team rule and entry bond these days... :(