what happened to Lewis?

[johnny shell]

what happened to Lewis? I know he had the pit stop miscue, but that didn't cost him any time, did it? I mean since the fuel guy never stop fueling the car?

so what happened to him?

[Corny]

he finished his ninth podium in a row, so nothing happened really with him in my eyes??

[Ian McC]

Had a problem getting the right set up all weekend, just one of those things I guess.

[ArrowsFA1]

Silverstone was a relatively poor weekend by Lewis Hamilton standards ;)

[F1MAN2007]

what happened to Lewis? I know he had the pit stop miscue, but that didn't cost him any time, did it? I mean since the fuel guy never stop fueling the car?

so what happened to him?

1. He failed to set up his car according to his driving style. Normaly he copy 100% the set up of Alonso's car. but this time he tried to change a little bit the rear wing of his car just to make a little difference with Alonso's car but discovered it was a mistake and he changed the wing in the first stint.

2. Poor strategy of tires choice

3. Pit stop error cost him some precious seconds

4. Finally he is human, he cracks and the pressure was too much for a rookie

5. After losing the lead, he was down and couldn't do anything more unless to hold the position thinking how Kimmi and Alonso particuraly are going to beat him down in front of his public.

But still someone will say that he has done 9 podiums in 9 race started just to cover some weaknesses of the rookie. It still long way to go and we will know more.

[Ian McC]

4. Finally he is human, he cracks and the pressure was too much for a rookie



:rolleyes:

What rubbish!

[johnny shell]

thanks. it for sure wasn't a BAD race - but yeah, it wasn't up to his standards - that's for sure!

does he really copy alonso's set-ups almost exactly?

[Priorat]

Ther was a point where LH saw he didn't have a chance to win so there was no need to push and could save the engine.
On the other hand KR and FA had to push all the time to make his strategy work. That could explain in part the big difference at the end.
But still on the podium so not that bad.

[Ian McC]

Normaly he copy 100% the set up of Alonso's car.


As Valve would say, link please! Though I don't expect an answer to that one.

[555-04Q2]

As Valve would say, link please! Though I don't expect an answer to that one.

Its true. Lewis had been using Alonso's setups for a few races but I think that has come to an end now.

[Firstgear]

Didn't he flat spot one of his front tires early in the 2nd stint? I assumed he was losing time due to vibrations from the flat spotted tire.

[ioan]

He just wasn't fast enough, big deal! What were you thinking, that he is really better than seasoned top F1 drivers?

[F1MAN2007]

:rolleyes:

What rubbish!

Thank you Sir for your comment. :D

Read this first :

".... so I'm finding this weekend quite a positive weekend for me and for sure, there's pressure but the most pressure comes from myself. ........." (Lewis in Saturday press conference)

[janneppi]

Thank you Sir for your comment. :D

Read this first :

".... so I'm finding this weekend quite a positive weekend for me and for sure, there's pressure but the most pressure comes from myself. ........." (Lewis in Saturday press conference)
Acknowledging the pressure and cracking under it are completely different things.
The latter certainly didn't happen here.

[GridGirl]

Lewis just proved that he's normal. By anyone else's expectations and standards third place would be good. If he hadn't driven so exceptionially well in the previous 8 GP's, it would have been seen as a fantastic result.

Then again, maybe he was just in shock from the amount of people that were buying Hamilton hats and T-shirts and stuff at the GP. The pound signs could have just been flashing in his head for the entire. Bit of a distraction that. :p

[Priorat]

Its true. Lewis had been using Alonso's setups for a few races but I think that has come to an end now.

Yes. Now Alonso is using Hamilton's set-up

[truefan72]

Yes, sad that he didn 't win but not dissapointing, but overall a good weekend finishing third, on the podium for the 9th straight time and maintaining a solid gap to his chief rivals.

He won't win every race, but his consistency will carry him on those days.

As for copying Alonso's set up ,that is simply rubbish on every front.
1. If indeed he copies his set up, then that would mean in identical cars, LH is simply better than FA
2. There are two distinct camps at McClaren and both have thier own set off engineers. If you ever bother to listen to live radio during practice and quali, you would know that each driver delivers their own input to feed their driving style and set up their car as needed. Do you think that LH sits around and waits for FA to do a lap and then asks his engineers to do what FA did?
3. Right from the start, LH has always brought his own technical savvy into setting up his cars, which has been a revelation for his team. Such to the point that FA began to feel that the team was rallying too much around the rookie. Trust me, 9 races into the season, if Alonso felt that he was Lewis's set-up man, it would have come out.

It was a tough race for LH, made a few mistakes, had trouble maintaining pace and overall brought the car to a respectable 3rd place. If that is considred a dissapointment or a sign of him cracking, then I'll take that.

Consider this, 3rd place has been his lowest position all season.

as my sig says...

[VkmSpouge]

Certainly not the worst weekend ever experienced by a championship leader. His joint worse result of 3rd place and his championship lead down to 12 points. I think Hamilton might be disappointed with the weekend and not being able to win but he'll still be leading the championship by at least 2 points coming to Hungary in a month's time.


3. Pit stop error cost him some precious seconds

It might have cost him a couple of seconds but ultimately didn't cost him any positions. At the very best he might just have been able to stay ahead of Raikkonen after the first pitstop but the Finn would have got him on the second round of stops.


4. Finally he is human, he cracks and the pressure was too much for a rookie

I don't think he cracked, he simply never had the pace to keep up with Raikkonen or Alonso all day.

[ratonmacias]

here lewis implies he uses fernando's setups.

A bigger problem was getting enough sheer speed out of his car, despite his barnstorming final qualifying lap to take pole position on Saturday.

"I made a wrong decision with the set-up," he lamented. "I chose a different rear end to Fernando and I think it really caused me problems in the race.

"Even in qualifying we didn't really have the pace we should have had, and it was too late by then to change.

"It's a good lesson...we have to look forward and hope to be better in the next race."

maybe fernando got pissed that lewis was beating him while using his setup ability and he made a fuss about it in last few weeks and he wont be giving hamilton that info anymore.



link:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60650

[Ian McC]

here lewis implies he uses fernando's setups.

A bigger problem was getting enough sheer speed out of his car, despite his barnstorming final qualifying lap to take pole position on Saturday.

"I made a wrong decision with the set-up," he lamented. "I chose a different rear end to Fernando and I think it really caused me problems in the race.

"Even in qualifying we didn't really have the pace we should have had, and it was too late by then to change.

"It's a good lesson...we have to look forward and hope to be better in the next race."

maybe fernando got pissed that lewis was beating him while using his setup ability and he made a fuss about it in last few weeks and he wont be giving hamilton that info anymore.



link:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60650

I would say it has more to do with explaining why he wasn't as quick as FA than running the same set up

[ratonmacias]

I would say it has more to do with explaining why he wasn't as quick as FA than running the same set up

if that was the case he could have easily said "i had a bad setup" or "my setup wasnt the best" only lewis fans claim that he doesnt use fernandos setup.

[kalasend]

LH was simply out-paced by KR and FA. Period.
Even RD said after the race that they knew from the start that LH cannot win (because he knew FA's fuel is lot more than LH).

Also, had KR not made a mistake in qualifying LH wouldn't have got the pole, and KR had more fuel onboard too. So what do you expect?

McLaren's the strategy during the race was for LH to hold up KR for as much as possible so the heavy fuel FA can leap-frog him after 1st pit. FA did it but KR was simply much quicker.

[Ian McC]

if that was the case he could have easily said "i had a bad setup" or "my setup wasnt the best" only lewis fans claim that he doesnt use fernandos setup.

And probably only people who don't like him say he does :p :

[Timber]

Had a problem getting the right set up all weekend, just one of those things I guess.
He did not have a problem with the car qualifying ? I think he just did not drive well that day .. :eek:

[Ian McC]

He did not have a problem with the car qualifying ? I think he just did not drive well that day .. :eek:

He had not been running that fast all weekend, he did not have a lot of fuel in the car when he did that lap.

[Timber]

Yes, sad that he didn 't win but not dissapointing, but overall a good weekend finishing third, on the podium for the 9th straight time and maintaining a solid gap to his chief rivals.

He won't win every race, but his consistency will carry him on those days.

As for copying Alonso's set up ,that is simply rubbish on every front.
1. If indeed he copies his set up, then that would mean in identical cars, LH is simply better than FA
2. There are two distinct camps at McClaren and both have thier own set off engineers. If you ever bother to listen to live radio during practice and quali, you would know that each driver delivers their own input to feed their driving style and set up their car as needed. Do you think that LH sits around and waits for FA to do a lap and then asks his engineers to do what FA did?
3. Right from the start, LH has always brought his own technical savvy into setting up his cars, which has been a revelation for his team. Such to the point that FA began to feel that the team was rallying too much around the rookie. Trust me, 9 races into the season, if Alonso felt that he was Lewis's set-up man, it would have come out.

It was a tough race for LH, made a few mistakes, had trouble maintaining pace and overall brought the car to a respectable 3rd place. If that is considred a dissapointment or a sign of him cracking, then I'll take that.

Consider this, 3rd place has been his lowest position all season.

as my sig says...

You are right he is much faster then Alonso , of course he only finished about 30 seconds behind him ..... the last race
as you say , you can argue with results ..

[jas123f1]

what happened to Lewis? I know he had the pit stop miscue, but that didn't cost him any time, did it? I mean since the fuel guy never stop fueling the car?

so what happened to him?

I think Hamilton drove a good race and tog a podium place again, ok – he was a bit lucky because Massa had his problem at start – but that’s racing. L.H. is the best rookie ever, in my mind anyway, but he is not the best driver (yet) whatever people in UK thinks. But he is good and making a superior season so far and still leading the championship. I hope that Englishmen are pleased with him even if he doesn’t win the title. It remains also to see how well he’s driving when he has couple cars in front of him and not a free track – something like Massa had in Silverstone.

So - I don’t think anything happened with him.. good race of him :)

[ratonmacias]

And probably only people who don't like him say he does :p :


if i remember correctly part of alonsos fit in the last weeks was because his data and setups were used by lewis too. isnt it coincidence that since that happened lewis hasnt been as good and he would have lost his podium string if

a) alonsos car didnt fail in q3 in france.
b) massa's car didnt stall at the grid in silverstone.

to be honest lewis' strength has been that his car has never lost a beat. while the other three have had at least two failures that cost valuable points.

[jso1985]

he wasn't as fast as Raikkonen and Alonso. simply that
no "bad" weekend for him IMO

[samuratt]

Another link to Lewis words:
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2482039,00.html
"I think I made a wrong decision with the set-up. I chose a different rear end to Fernando and I think it really caused me problems during the race."

I think it is clear that he has been using, or at least relaying on, Alonso's setups.

And yes, given those setups he has been able to beat him!

Apart from that he did a very good weekend in terms of valuable points, while he performed a little down from the expectations we all had.

[Ian McC]

Another link to Lewis words:
[url]I think it is clear that he has been using, or at least relaying on, Alonso's setups.

It is only clear to those who want to read it that way, there is nothing there that suggests it is the case.

[weeflyonthewall]

Cripes, what's the measuring sick? Another strong performance by the rookie Lewis. He didn't win so he had a bad day?

Most everyone acknowledged Ferrari had good pace and McLaren were fortunate to get 2nd and 3rd. Massa could have easily made the podium if not for the stall at the start.
The WC is not getting handed to anyone on a silver spoon. 9 podiums in 9 races is what will keep Lewis in the hunt. Consistency is what matters.That he has!

[Garry Walker]

Its true. Lewis had been using Alonso's setups for a few races but I think that has come to an end now.

Give me the link for that, you seem to be so sure of yourself.


he wasn't as fast as Raikkonen and Alonso. simply that
no "bad" weekend for him IMO

Not bad? He was beaten by 30 seconds. How on earth can anyone say it was a good weekend for him. His driving wasnt worthy of a podium at all. But he will be better at the next race, I am sure of it. At least it put a little stop on the constant Lewis-masturbation that has taken over the British media.

[andreag]

if i remember correctly part of alonsos fit in the last weeks was because his data and setups were used by lewis too. isnt it coincidence that since that happened lewis hasnt been as good and he would have lost his podium string if

a) alonsos car didnt fail in q3 in france.
b) massa's car didnt stall at the grid in silverstone.

to be honest lewis' strength has been that his car has never lost a beat. while the other three have had at least two failures that cost valuable points.
Absolutely. In Canada and USA, Fernando was faster on practices, and on Q1 and Q2, but couldn't have a decission in fuel load, and consequently his car (setup for the race) gets beaten by Lewis's (setup for qualifying). By the way, Lewis always improved on saturday, once he could studied Fernando's setup.

Starting second in both races made him crazy to try to re-win the position in the first turn, and failed; having the same car, overtaking during the race it's simply impossible; and pit stop strategy didn't help him.

In France he clearly change his way, and his times on Friday were really bad (some partials were fantastic, but every lap has a bad sector and the lap time fall down); his strategy was to do a late setup in one of his favourite tracks, so Lewis couldn't copy it and try to qualify first. But he couldn't due to the gear failure.

Later on this race, he was faster than Lewis when he had free track, but incredibly the team invented a weird strategy: they pit Lewis and Fernando on lap 16, after this he drove the best, reaching fifth position. Secon pit stop came on lap 37 for both drivers, but they load Lewis with 45 kg. (for 14 laps), and Fernando with 105 kg! (for the rest of the race).

He couldn't do anything else on track after this strange pit stop (nobody would do it with such a heavy car, specially a McLaren, which is bad for the tyres when is too heavy).

Then came the British GP; Fernando knew Hamilton would ask for a light car in Q3 so he can get the pole, so he did as in France, bad results on Friday, so Lewis won't use his setup. Then disguised laps on saturday (he was the best on ideal laps, but not on real laps), to find the good setup without giving a track about it; and finally going for the pole with a heavier car.

If he could get the pole, he had a clearer chance to win the race, if not, the pit stop should give him the chance to overtake. But a horrible strategy on the fuel load during the first pit stop (3 more laps would be perfect), made him lose the lead to Kimi.

Meanwhile Lewis, with a poor setup, could get the pace of Fernando, Kimi and Felipe, and he was lucky to finish in the podium, when the bazilian stalled his car just before the race. If not, he would finished his podiums-in-a-row record.

Nurburgring will favour McLarens over Ferrari, but if during Friday practices you see a slow Fernando, wait for a Alonso, Kimi, Felipe podium (in this order), if nothing strange happens. And the same is valid for Hungary.

And that will leave the championship like this before Turkey:

1.- Hamilton. 80 pts.
2.- Alonso. 78 pts.
3.- Raikkönen. 68 pts.
4.- Massa. 63 pts.

You'll see.

[VkmSpouge]

if i remember correctly part of alonsos fit in the last weeks was because his data and setups were used by lewis too. isnt it coincidence that since that happened lewis hasnt been as good and he would have lost his podium string if

a) alonsos car didnt fail in q3 in france.
b) massa's car didnt stall at the grid in silverstone.

I disagree with a). Alonso's fastest lap at Magny-Cours was only a tenth faster than Hamilton's, there's not enough evidence to suggest that had Alonso's gearbox not failed in qualifying where Alonso's finishing position in the race would have been.
I do agree though had Massa not stalled at Silverstone he would have at the very least beaten Hamilton.


to be honest lewis' strength has been that his car has never lost a beat.

To finish first, first you have to finish, rings true in F1. That is one of the biggest things to being a winner, the car needs to be reliable.
But Hamilton's other strength is that he makes so few costly on track mistakes. Massa messed up while trying to pass Hamilton in Malaysia. Raikkonen clipped the kerb at Monaco in qualifying that broke his suspension. Alonso has made mistakes in Spain, Canada and France. Hamilton's mistake in the pits at Silverstone is pretty minor compared to these.
I'm sure Hamilton will eventually make errors like these, he is just a rookie after all and is still very much on a steep learning curve in Formula 1. Still to have a "bad" race and finish 3rd place is pretty good :D

[Zico]

Absolutely. In Canada and USA, Fernando was faster on practices, and on Q1 and Q2, but couldn't have a decission in fuel load, and consequently his car (setup for the race) gets beaten by Lewis's (setup for qualifying). By the way, Lewis always improved on saturday, once he could studied Fernando's setup.

Starting second in both races made him crazy to try to re-win the position in the first turn, and failed; having the same car, overtaking during the race it's simply impossible; and pit stop strategy didn't help him.

In France he clearly change his way, and his times on Friday were really bad (some partials were fantastic, but every lap has a bad sector and the lap time fall down); his strategy was to do a late setup in one of his favourite tracks, so Lewis couldn't copy it and try to qualify first. But he couldn't due to the gear failure.

Later on this race, he was faster than Lewis when he had free track, but incredibly the team invented a weird strategy: they pit Lewis and Fernando on lap 16, after this he drove the best, reaching fifth position. Secon pit stop came on lap 37 for both drivers, but they load Lewis with 45 kg. (for 14 laps), and Fernando with 105 kg! (for the rest of the race).

He couldn't do anything else on track after this strange pit stop (nobody would do it with such a heavy car, specially a McLaren, which is bad for the tyres when is too heavy).

Then came the British GP; Fernando knew Hamilton would ask for a light car in Q3 so he can get the pole, so he did as in France, bad results on Friday, so Lewis won't use his setup. Then disguised laps on saturday (he was the best on ideal laps, but not on real laps), to find the good setup without giving a track about it; and finally going for the pole with a heavier car.

If he could get the pole, he had a clearer chance to win the race, if not, the pit stop should give him the chance to overtake. But a horrible strategy on the fuel load during the first pit stop (3 more laps would be perfect), made him lose the lead to Kimi.

Meanwhile Lewis, with a poor setup, could get the pace of Fernando, Kimi and Felipe, and he was lucky to finish in the podium, when the bazilian stalled his car just before the race. If not, he would finished his podiums-in-a-row record.

Nurburgring will favour McLarens over Ferrari, but if during Friday practices you see a slow Fernando, wait for a Alonso, Kimi, Felipe podium (in this order), if nothing strange happens. And the same is valid for Hungary.

And that will leave the championship like this before Turkey:

1.- Hamilton. 80 pts.
2.- Alonso. 78 pts.
3.- Raikkönen. 68 pts.
4.- Massa. 63 pts.

You'll see.

Wow.. makes sense to me, you have incredible insight. I think Lewis will be well aware that FA is playing games in this regard though.




Re- Silverstone, yes he obviously had a race below his usual standards due to bad set-up as explained by andreag above, bad tyre strategy (team) He was running very light to get pole which cost him in the race, he made a pit error that cost him a couple of seconds.
After this he wasnt in the hunt,was struggling with the car, the Ferraris had the quicker cars and so both FA and LH both turned their engines down a little (team orders) to protect them for Germany. He was lucky to finish 3rd, cant believe people are saying he's cracking tho, he's a rookie and he'll learn from this.

[Valve Bounce]

Silverstone was a relatively poor weekend by Lewis Hamilton standards ;)

Basically, nothing happened to Lewis Hamilton. He has been picking up points and wins when his three main opponents couldn't get their act together.
Lewis Hamilton is only a rookie and he is not as good or as fast a driver as Kimi, Alonso or Massa all things being equal.

Even his pole was based on circumstances:
1. He was lighter than Kimi and Alonso,
2. He went out last and had maximum rubber on the track from the other qualifiers
3. He got everything right while the others made slight mistakes.

But don't sell the guy short - he will become just as good as the other three with another year or two in F1.

On this basis, I doubt if he will win the WDC this year or even come second - but he is a sensation just the same if we look on this being hsi first year in F1 and forget about all the hype in the British press.

But his race in the British GP showed that he is not yet as fast as Kimi, Alonso or even Massa since the other three got their acts together. In the meanwhile, as soon as one of the others miss a beat, Lewis will be there again on the podium because he is consistant, and given half a chance if they don't get their set-ups perfect, Lewis will even win again.

That is as unbiased and disinterested a view I can possibly make. All the Lewis Haters needn't respond to this post, thank you!!

[Valve Bounce]

Good post above, andreag :up:
I think if we combine your post with mine, the whole thing makes sense.

[N. Jones]

what happened to Lewis? I know he had the pit stop miscue, but that didn't cost him any time, did it? I mean since the fuel guy never stop fueling the car?

so what happened to him?

What happened? I have three answers:

1) His over-the-top mania finally died down before someone killed him for not lapping the field on his way to winning every race.

2) He has been on the podium for every race of his young career; so nothing happened.

3) He did what every single person on this planet has done - he wasn't perfect all of the time. OR you could say - he made a mistake. We all do.

I hope you are satisfied... PLEASE, everyone, move on to something else.

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe he just wasn't fast enough - the other two were faster.

[leopard]

Q: What happened to Lewis?
A: He finished third

that's it

[Valve Bounce]

Q: What happened to Lewis?
A: He finished third

that's it

Well, I think that's what happened.

[wmcot]

When a driver finishes 3rd we jump all over him saying he's had a bad weekend??? Just how many drivers have been on the podium this year, 5 or 6? I think that the other 16 or 17 drivers would be ecstatic about 3rd!!!

LH has had a phenomenal start and because of this, I think we're setting the bar a little too high for him. Heaven help him if he should ever finish 4th or 5th - his career might be over...

[fasttrakker55]

After the pressure hes been in the whole weekend 3rd is good. The way Britain worships their idols, they always make things harder for them. I bet if this wasn't Silverstone Hamilton would ave challenged Alonso for 2nd place. Look at the failed Brits like Tim Henman, Andy Murray, David Coulthard, Jenson Button. Pity they have to live with their own country which wrecks their careers.

[ArrowsFA1]

Another link to Lewis words:
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2482039,00.html
"I think I made a wrong decision with the set-up. I chose a different rear end to Fernando and I think it really caused me problems during the race."

I think it is clear that he has been using, or at least relaying on, Alonso's setups.
All that is clear from that is that he chose a different rear end to Fernando.

I don't doubt that LH has benefitted from having access to FA's data, but that works both ways and the team benefits.

[F1MAN2007]

As Valve would say, link please! Though I don't expect an answer to that one.

Do you think that we talk just for talking? Cool down, here is the link :

“I am not going to have an advantage even on the circuits that I am better at,” the 25-year-old said, “because all of my information passes straight to him (Hamilton)." (Alonso)

Here is the link : http://formula1sport.net/formula-1/alonso-says-hamilton-his-clone/

[F1MAN2007]

Do you ant more comments on this?

""So that advantage has disappeared. Recovering points is very complicated when alongside you there is a clone." (Alonso)

Link : http://www.f1i.com/content/view/7793/1/

[andreag]

Good post above, andreag :up:
I think if we combine your post with mine, the whole thing makes sense.
Thanks Valve; I really appreciate this (specially coming from someone as wise as you).

I totally agree your post, and I think combining it with mine makes the perfect mix ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

“I am not going to have an advantage even on the circuits that I am better at,” the 25-year-old said, “because all of my information passes straight to him (Hamilton)." (Alonso)

Here is the link : http://formula1sport.net/formula-1/alonso-says-hamilton-his-clone/
So whoever makes the most of the shared information wins. Sounds good to me :up: That is unless Alonso does a Mansell ;)

[Mark]

Lewis had the advantage at the start of the season of not having to adapt his driving style to new tyres, plus Alonso had to adapt to being in a new team. So that gave him an advantage for a while, one which is now gone.

[samuratt]

All that is clear from that is that he chose a different rear end to Fernando.

I don't doubt that LH has benefitted from having access to FA's data, but that works both ways and the team benefits.

As i already said on the other threaf there you have the clues. The way you look at them is up to you.

Another thing that i find interesting is that when Fernando lost to Hamilton in Canada and Spain, he didn't say anything about the set up of his car. For the first time Hamilton looses a lot of time to his team mate and he refers to not having the same setup than his teammate. mmm interesting at least, isn't it?

To me is as clear as water that he is seting up his car by looking at what Fernando does.

Anyway some faith is needed to believe one thing or another ;)

[555-04Q2]

Give me the link for that, you seem to be so sure of yourself.

He was racing on tracks he had never raced before in any car let alone an F1 car and using Alonso's setup was all the Mclaren team could do to make sure he was competitive.

[Flat.tyres]

so, a two times WDC is moaning because in identical cars set up for his specific driving style, he is no better than a Rookie, or am I reading this wrong?

I have written this before and I will repeat it now. both camps share data and the engineers make decisions based on that data. if one driver finds a better set-up, it may or may not suit the driving style of the other to copy it.

In the british GP, Lewis and Fernando choose different rear wings. from what I understand, lewis wanted a bit less wing on the car to try and get it moving a bit. if you've ever driven at silverstone you will know you have some great fast corners but then it just seems like youre walking around the last bit waiting for the final exit to nail it. having the rear a little loose allows you to get that car pointing in the right direction a bit quicker so you can nail it. couple that with the fact that McLaren struggle loading the stones as much as Ferrari seem to be able to and it looked like the right move. as we know, it didn't work out and lewis needed to load the front a little more during the race as the tyres were moving a bit too much and therefore graining. This is basic stuff.

[555-04Q2]

I think this was the link Garry

http://www.espnstar.com/studio/studio_coldetail_6190154.html

[555-04Q2]

so, a two times WDC is moaning because in identical cars set up for his specific driving style, he is no better than a Rookie, or am I reading this wrong?

I have written this before and I will repeat it now. both camps share data and the engineers make decisions based on that data. if one driver finds a better set-up, it may or may not suit the driving style of the other to copy it.

In the british GP, Lewis and Fernando choose different rear wings. from what I understand, lewis wanted a bit less wing on the car to try and get it moving a bit. if you've ever driven at silverstone you will know you have some great fast corners but then it just seems like youre walking around the last bit waiting for the final exit to nail it. having the rear a little loose allows you to get that car pointing in the right direction a bit quicker so you can nail it. couple that with the fact that McLaren struggle loading the stones as much as Ferrari seem to be able to and it looked like the right move. as we know, it didn't work out and lewis needed to load the front a little more during the race as the tyres were moving a bit too much and therefore graining. This is basic stuff.

I'm talking about the circuits Lewis had not been to before as a racer. I rate Alonso as the best current F1 driver on the grid by a fair margin to anyone else (he just needs to chill out a bit), but I rate Lewis as the fastest driver in F1 at the moment.

[Valve Bounce]

I'm talking about the circuits Lewis had not been to before as a racer. I rate Alonso as the best current F1 driver on the grid by a fair margin to anyone else (he just needs to chill out a bit), but I rate Lewis as the fastest driver in F1 at the moment.


Poor Kimi, relegated to third best :(

[Flat.tyres]

I'm talking about the circuits Lewis had not been to before as a racer. I rate Alonso as the best current F1 driver on the grid by a fair margin to anyone else (he just needs to chill out a bit), but I rate Lewis as the fastest driver in F1 at the moment.

fair point but i think you underestimate McLaren.

believe it or not, a driver doesn't turn up at a track in a new team, new car and start telling the mechanics what to do.

the mechanics will look at previous years data coupled with prediction how the current car is expected to run and set the car up taking into account how they know the driver likes the car to behave. then you have first prcatice.

from there, you get the info back, the feedback from the driver and look at where each car is performing best or otherwise, run predictions back using the data and proposed changes and off you go again.

etc

etc.

eventually, you will narrow down what is the best qualifying and race trim for each driver. there is just no way a driver will turn up and say "OK, lets have that rear, that front, toe it in another 1/2 degree, chuck me 1mm on the front, adjust the bias 1/2% to the rear and lets run map 5.

It just doesnt happen my old fruit. about all you get from a driver is "Ive no grip at all going into turn 5 and it wont drive out of 7. give me more wing!!!"

from there, the engineers tweak, fiddle, fettle, compromise, look again at the data, run the simulations and scratch their nuts before coming up with a solution.

[DonnieDarco]

OMG, Lewis finished 3rd?!? This is an absolute disaster, lets focus on Jenson again until Lewis is able to sort himself out ;)

[555-04Q2]

Poor Kimi, relegated to third best :(

Not really third but second I would say behind Alonso. Kimi as a complete package at the moment will be better than Lewis by miles, but I think Lewis is faster in all out pace. Look at what he has done to both Kimi and Alonso so far this season and he is only a rookie!!! Only raw pace or luck can be the answer. I choose raw pace, others will choose luck.

P.S. I think Kimi is faster than Alonso but not as complete a driver as Alonso.

[Valve Bounce]

Now poor Kimi is not all there also :(

[555-04Q2]

fair point but i think you underestimate McLaren.

believe it or not, a driver doesn't turn up at a track in a new team, new car and start telling the mechanics what to do.

the mechanics will look at previous years data coupled with prediction how the current car is expected to run and set the car up taking into account how they know the driver likes the car to behave. then you have first prcatice.

from there, you get the info back, the feedback from the driver and look at where each car is performing best or otherwise, run predictions back using the data and proposed changes and off you go again.

etc

etc.

eventually, you will narrow down what is the best qualifying and race trim for each driver. there is just no way a driver will turn up and say "OK, lets have that rear, that front, toe it in another 1/2 degree, chuck me 1mm on the front, adjust the bias 1/2% to the rear and lets run map 5.

It just doesnt happen my old fruit. about all you get from a driver is "Ive no grip at all going into turn 5 and it wont drive out of 7. give me more wing!!!"

from there, the engineers tweak, fiddle, fettle, compromise, look again at the data, run the simulations and scratch their nuts before coming up with a solution.

:up:

[ArrowsFA1]

Very fair assessment 555-04Q2 :up: F1 is all about the complete package, as MS proved at Ferrari, and at the moment I'd agree that Alonso is ahead of the rest in that area this season.

IMHO the only thing that Hamilton lacks to match, or better his team-mate, is experience and time will take care of that. Lewis certainly has the potential to be the best of the current WDC challengers for years to come.

Kimi is quick, no doubt, but I'm beginning to doubt whether that is enough. Increasingly he seems to be cast in the mould of the likes of Ronnie Peterson. Put him in a sorted car, combined with his talent, and he can blow the opposition away, but he needs everything in place around him and I'm not sure what he is willing to contribute to that side of the package.

I've never understood why Ferrari have so much invested in Massa, but that's just my opinion. He's good, no doubt, but given similar opportunities there are many drivers who could produce the same results. He's not exceptional in the way I think Hamilton is. The fact that he's running Kimi so close is what makes me doubt Kimi.

[555-04Q2]

Now poor Kimi is not all there also :(

Are any of us ;) :p :

[555-04Q2]

Very fair assessment 555-04Q2 :up: F1 is all about the complete package, as MS proved at Ferrari, and at the moment I'd agree that Alonso is ahead of the rest in that area this season.

IMHO the only thing that Hamilton lacks to match, or better his team-mate, is experience and time will take care of that. Lewis certainly has the potential to be the best of the current WDC challengers for years to come.

Kimi is quick, no doubt, but I'm beginning to doubt whether that is enough. Increasingly he seems to be cast in the mould of the likes of Ronnie Peterson. Put him in a sorted car, combined with his talent, and he can blow the opposition away, but he needs everything in place around him and I'm not sure what he is willing to contribute to that side of the package.

I've never understood why Ferrari have so much invested in Massa, but that's just my opinion. He's good, no doubt, but given similar opportunities there are many drivers who could produce the same results. He's not exceptional in the way I think Hamilton is. The fact that he's running Kimi so close is what makes me doubt Kimi.

:up:

If Lewis can keep his determination and his natural pace he seems to have and couple it to a few years experience in the future, we could be witnessing the start of the greatest ever driver in the history of F1. But we have said it many times about other drivers so lets give the young lad some time to experience some lows with the highs and see how he does. I hope the lad pulls through.

[F1MAN2007]

Not really third but second I would say behind Alonso. Kimi as a complete package at the moment will be better than Lewis by miles, but I think Lewis is faster in all out pace. Look at what he has done to both Kimi and Alonso so far this season and he is only a rookie!!! Only raw pace or luck can be the answer. I choose raw pace, others will choose luck.

P.S. I think Kimi is faster than Alonso but not as complete a driver as Alonso.


I think Kimmi is the fastest driver out there if he has a best package.

But Alonso like you said, is a complete driver : fast, agressive,consistant, also best in setting his car (since Minardi to Mclaren).

Lewis, yes is looking to be a fast and consistent driver in overall but remember he is the only one in top 5 who didn't have any problem with his car so far during this season until silvestone where Mclaren was slow compared to Ferrari.

Alonso : Gearbox problems, mistakes, SC, traffic, etc
Kimmi : engine, traffic,
Massa: disqualified, traffic (2 times), SC,

So in some races, Lewis has been a lucky man (like in Monaco) like he had the oly bad lucky in British GP

I think Lewis still have a long way to go before to be compared to MS, FA, or to all other best drivers in F1 you may quote. The thing is that, and it is my opinion, Robert Kubica is another talented and fastest rookie on the grid. I am sure if he would be given a Ferrari or a Mclaren, I think the story today would not be the same like it is with Lewis.

[Valve Bounce]

..............then there's Nick Heidfeld, who is now the forgotten man.

[Hendersen]

Flatspotted a tire. Second time he's done it. But according to the british commentator, that little jump in the pits was Hamilton's "first mistake". I guess all those corners where he slid and could have easily lost it weren't his mistakes, they were the car's mistakes.

[F1MAN2007]

After the pressure hes been in the whole weekend 3rd is good. The way Britain worships their idols, they always make things harder for them. I bet if this wasn't Silverstone Hamilton would ave challenged Alonso for 2nd place. Look at the failed Brits like Tim Henman, Andy Murray, David Coulthard, Jenson Button. Pity they have to live with their own country which wrecks their careers.


You are right in what you are saying. I am wondering what gonna happen soon to the rookie. They have made him their god and in what he is saying this time, he feels like he is the best out there. Hope he will learn from David Coulthard, Jenson Button, Andy Murray and others.

[fasttrakker55]

I'm talking about the circuits Lewis had not been to before as a racer. I rate Alonso as the best current F1 driver on the grid by a fair margin to anyone else (he just needs to chill out a bit), but I rate Lewis as the fastest driver in F1 at the moment.

What a joke...Lewis is a fast and very reliable driver who has had all the luck in his way this season. What he has NOT done is a rookie mistake for which I personally commend him for. But fastest? When Kimi and Alonso are on the grid dont make me laugh. We saw how 'fast' the rookie is in Britain, his teammate and Kimi could hav gone in the pits for a gangbang and come out and still finished in front of the 'fastest driver' in F1. Alonso had his bad luck this season with mechanical failures, Kimi had to retire out of Spain losing 6 points easily, maybe more, same goes for Massa being DQ and losing the engine at the start of GB. Lewis is the luckiest driver of the 4 but its only a matter of time. He will start having mech failures and we will see how the 'fastest driver' deals with it when he gets overtaken by his teammate and Kimi, maybe even Massa.

[fasttrakker55]

You are right in what you are saying. I am wondering what gonna happen soon to the rookie. They have made him their god and in what he is saying this time, he feels like he is the best out there. Hope he will learn from David Coulthard, Jenson Button, Andy Murray and others.

Personally I feel he conducts himself properly, so far. We know how much hype there is about him but I think he is not arrogant at all in his comments and he took the defeat by Kimi and his teammate in a very sportsmanshiplike manner on the podium. Even Alonso was playing mindgames by ignoring Lewis, etc but thats his problem.

I just feel many ppl are buying everything the media is doing and thinking this Lewis is some Godlike racer who has come to save Britain of not having a champion for so long. He is not. He is a very fast (NOT fastest) and very reliable driver, maybe just a bit more of what Coulthard old man was when he first came. Dont forget what Coulthard did when he came in F1, 5 straight poles and probably caused more mania than this guy did long ago. Now we see the Once Great Brit running around pissing out Redbull and hoping to finish in 8th place for a party. Dont even get me started on the worst case -> Button.

I jus hope Britain takes care of this latest hotshot and let him play his game. Because he is a talent and its not to be wasted like the other Brits have on the grid. Oh, and I dont even believe Button is a talent BTW dont misunderstand me on that.

[johnny shell]

Absolutely. In Canada and USA, Fernando was faster on practices, and on Q1 and Q2, but couldn't have a decission in fuel load, and consequently his car (setup for the race) gets beaten by Lewis's (setup for qualifying).

how was the decision made the FA would have more fuel than FH for Q3 & the race start?

[F1MAN2007]

........I think he is not arrogant at all in his comments.. .

How do you find him calling other drivers "Monkeys" ? :D

Or is that he still a rookie and we can tolerate this?

[ArrowsFA1]

What a joke...Lewis is a fast and very reliable driver who has had all the luck in his way this season...Lewis is the luckiest driver of the 4 but its only a matter of time. He will start having mech failures and we will see how the 'fastest driver' deals with it when he gets overtaken by his teammate and Kimi, maybe even Massa.
No sign of mechanical failures yet (they're beyond his control anyway), and he's already dealt with challenges from his WDC rivals very effectively.

As Gary Player once said: "The harder you work, the luckier you get."

[fasttrakker55]

How do you find him calling other drivers "Monkeys" ? :D

Or is that he still a rookie and we can tolerate this?

I saw that but I never heard it. I'd trust my enemies lawyer more than the Press today. If he did say that, well thats a black mark to him then.

[fasttrakker55]

No sign of mechanical failures yet (they're beyond his control anyway), and he's already dealt with challenges from his WDC rivals very effectively.

As Gary Player once said: "The harder you work, the luckier you get."

He has dealt effectively by just not making mistakes and keeping his rivals behind. Which qualifies under "being reliable and not making mistakes". Especially with this years' rules making it very difficult for cars to overtake.

Harder you work? So his double WDC teammate, Kimi and Massa dont work I guess, maybe they dont bother checking their engines, engine management systems, gearboxes and all the bolts and nuts are fixed tightly before a big race unlike Wonderboy Lewis who spends the entire sleepless night checking that the engineers did their work properly and races like a seasoned driver during the daytime. Give me a break.

[Mifune]

Lewis, yes is looking to be a fast and consistent driver in overall but remember he is the only one in top 5 who didn't have any problem with his car so far during this season until silvestone where Mclaren was slow compared to Ferrari.

Alonso : Gearbox problems, mistakes, SC, traffic, etc
Kimmi : engine, traffic,
Massa: disqualified, traffic (2 times), SC,

So in some races, Lewis has been a lucky man (like in Monaco) like he had the oly bad lucky in British GP

I think Lewis still have a long way to go before to be compared to MS, FA, or to all other best drivers in F1 you may quote. The thing is that, and it is my opinion, Robert Kubica is another talented and fastest rookie on the grid. I am sure if he would be given a Ferrari or a Mclaren, I think the story today would not be the same like it is with Lewis.

9 races into his career I don’t think anyone’s arguing that he doesn’t have a long way to go, there is a difference between what he is and what he just might be in the future, and you cant blame people for being excited over that prospect.
As for the luck excuse that cuts both ways and as MS showed you make your own luck,
out of the top 5 you could also have said that Lewis didn’t go off track after a botched passing maneuver in Bahrain, he didn’t lose it in the 1st couple of corners in Spain and Canada, he didn’t put it in the wall during qualifying at Monaco etc. etc, in short he hasn’t made any position paying errors at all so far. He may be the driver who hasnt had any problems yet but he`s also the driver who didnt give himself any problems.
Lucky? Maybe, but you make your own luck.

[fasttrakker55]

9 races into his career I don’t think anyone’s arguing that he doesn’t have a long way to go, there is a difference between what he is and what he just might be in the future, and you cant blame people for being excited over that prospect.
As for the luck excuse that cuts both ways and as MS showed you make your own luck,
out of the top 5 you could also have said that Lewis didn’t go off track after a botched passing maneuver in Bahrain, he didn’t lose it in the 1st couple of corners in Spain and Canada, he didn’t put it in the wall during qualifying at Monaco etc. etc, in short he hasn’t made any position paying errors at all so far. He may be the driver who hasnt had any problems yet but he`s also the driver who didnt give himself any problems.
Lucky? Maybe, but you make your own luck.


Im sorry but your last line is very interesting. Its like as if you are saying this thing can be made with some kind of material with some kind of manufacturing process which I have no idea off. Is there quality control on this?

I have heard that piece of garbage over and over again like an overcooked cliche but could you enlighten me how the Great Lewis "makes his own luck"? Is it the fact that Kimi and Alonso dont know which material to use to make this protective shield around themselves or is it just the random probabilty of one of their engineers making a slight error on the respective cars which so far, has not been Lewis' car.

[F1MAN2007]

I saw that but I never heard it. I'd trust my enemies lawyer more than the Press today. If he did say that, well thats a black mark to him then.

I heard that on live during the press conference. He said that personally.

[fasttrakker55]

I heard that on live during the press conference. He said that personally.

Thats pretty bad then. I dont think even Michael has said anything like that in public in his entire career.

[F1MAN2007]

......., in short he hasn’t made any position paying errors at all so far. He may be the driver who hasnt had any problems yet but he`s also the driver who didnt give himself any problems.
Lucky? Maybe, but you make your own luck.

So what happened in Silvestone then? Do you mean that finishing 3rd was not due to his error? :rolleyes: Think you can't deny this at least.

In Monaco he has been lucky because he kissed the wall more than 5 times, but lucky he is, he stayed on the road.

And he said something like : "...I have been doing such errors which you can't see...". (soon the link)

[baker]

..............then there's Nick Heidfeld, who is now the forgotten man.

Nick who? :confused:


As to the question what happenned to Lewis? He got the best result he could given that he wasn't able to find a car set-up he was happy with. Yet again he showed remarkable maturity in that, having realised he wasn't going to win or even come second in the race, he brought it home in third place. The temptation to push too hard and over drive the car in his first home GP must have been hard to resist.

[Hendersen]

Nick who? :confused:


As to the question what happenned to Lewis? He got the best result he could given that he wasn't able to find a car set-up he was happy with. Yet again he showed remarkable maturity in that, having realised he wasn't going to win or even come second in the race, he brought it home in third place. The temptation to push too hard and over drive the car in his first home GP must have been hard to resist.

His setup was so terrible that he only managed to secure pole position. I love the f-1 brits. 99% pure BS.

[Garry Walker]

He was racing on tracks he had never raced before in any car let alone an F1 car and using Alonso's setup was all the Mclaren team could do to make sure he was competitive.

Alonso and Hamilton surely drive a bit differently. Taking Alonsos setup and giving it to LH wouldnt work just like that.
It is also so that the driver actually doesnt set up the car. There are engineers for that, far more qualified than the driver to do that. All he can do is give some feedback, but it is still mostly up to the engineers.


I think this was the link Garry

http://www.espnstar.com/studio/studio_coldetail_6190154.html

What does that link say about Hamilton using Alonsos setups? Nothing as far as I can see.


fair point but i think you underestimate McLaren.

believe it or not, a driver doesn't turn up at a track in a new team, new car and start telling the mechanics what to do.

the mechanics will look at previous years data coupled with prediction how the current car is expected to run and set the car up taking into account how they know the driver likes the car to behave. then you have first prcatice.

from there, you get the info back, the feedback from the driver and look at where each car is performing best or otherwise, run predictions back using the data and proposed changes and off you go again.

etc

etc.

eventually, you will narrow down what is the best qualifying and race trim for each driver. there is just no way a driver will turn up and say "OK, lets have that rear, that front, toe it in another 1/2 degree, chuck me 1mm on the front, adjust the bias 1/2% to the rear and lets run map 5.

It just doesnt happen my old fruit. about all you get from a driver is "Ive no grip at all going into turn 5 and it wont drive out of 7. give me more wing!!!"

from there, the engineers tweak, fiddle, fettle, compromise, look again at the data, run the simulations and scratch their nuts before coming up with a solution.

Shock! I agree absolutely, good post. Drivers importance in setting up the car is overrated.


at the moment I'd agree that Alonso is ahead of the rest in that area this season. How is that so?



Increasingly he seems to be cast in the mould of the likes of Ronnie Peterson. Put him in a sorted car, combined with his talent, and he can blow the opposition away, but he needs everything in place around him
Kimi can actually drive a car not working to the fullest really well. Spa 2004 is an example. But to win, every driver needs pretty much everything around him to work. Alonso etc are no exceptions.


and I'm not sure what he is willing to contribute to that side of the package. So what gives you that idea? If I am not mistaken, then this year Kimi is the driver to have tested the most



I've never understood why Ferrari have so much invested in Massa, but that's just my opinion. He's good, no doubt, but given similar opportunities there are many drivers who could produce the same results.
Like who? Massa proved his worth. He is a very quick driver and has improved immensly at Ferrari. Ferrari has invested in Massa because he is very fast. He showed it last year.


He's not exceptional in the way I think Hamilton is. I reckon Massa is faster than Hamilton at the moment. Hamilton has a lot to prove still, before we can say he is exceptional.


The fact that he's running Kimi so close is what makes me doubt Kimi.
It only shows to me that both Kimi and Massa are both immensly fast racers, very fast.





As Gary Player once said: "The harder you work, the luckier you get."

Golf and F1 cant be compared. No matter how much you work, circumstances can ruin your race easily.


His setup was so terrible that he only managed to secure pole position. I love the f-1 brits. 99% pure BS.

I love you too. I guess the fuel loads had nothing to do with it?

[F1MAN2007]

.....It is also so that the driver actually doesnt set up the car. There are engineers for that, far more qualified than the driver to do that. All he can do is give some feedback, but it is still mostly up to the engineers.

But the engineers do what the drivers ask to be done. Already you said that they receive feedback from drivers and then set up the car. Which means engineers are there to set up the car like the drivers want it to be. Not like the engineers want the car to be.

So at the end, for my view, the set up belong to the drivers and when the engineers don't do their job correctly, then it is up to drivers to struggle with the car. Unless when the drivers give wrong info or feedback (Lewis in Silvestone).

[555-04Q2]

The thing is that, and it is my opinion, Robert Kubica is another talented and fastest rookie on the grid. I am sure if he would be given a Ferrari or a Mclaren, I think the story today would not be the same like it is with Lewis.

I agree with you about Kubica. He is very quick and so is Sutil, he just needs a better car to drive to show it.

[555-04Q2]

What a joke...Lewis is a fast and very reliable driver who has had all the luck in his way this season. What he has NOT done is a rookie mistake for which I personally commend him for. But fastest? When Kimi and Alonso are on the grid dont make me laugh. We saw how 'fast' the rookie is in Britain, his teammate and Kimi could hav gone in the pits for a gangbang and come out and still finished in front of the 'fastest driver' in F1. Alonso had his bad luck this season with mechanical failures, Kimi had to retire out of Spain losing 6 points easily, maybe more, same goes for Massa being DQ and losing the engine at the start of GB. Lewis is the luckiest driver of the 4 but its only a matter of time. He will start having mech failures and we will see how the 'fastest driver' deals with it when he gets overtaken by his teammate and Kimi, maybe even Massa.

He had trouble getting the car setup (remember he is still a rookie) which is why he was so much slower than Kimi and Alonso. I would have though that was obvious. If you look at the WDC, Lewis is the fastest man in F1 at the moment. The points dont lie, luck or no luck. Imagine what he will be like with 6 or so seasons behind him like Kimi and Alonso have. He will be a sublime.

[555-04Q2]

What does that link say about Hamilton using Alonsos setups? Nothing as far as I can see.

Thats where I read about it.

[Flat.tyres]

Shock! I agree absolutely, good post. Drivers importance in setting up the car is overrated.

stick around sonny, there might be hope for you yet :p :

there tends to be fundemental differences between how drivers want to drive the car and designers want the car to perform but by the time race weekend comes round, the engineers job is one of setting up a prototype and then interpreting what the drivers are telling them. then you need to look at the telementary to see where your up, down, can improve, need to adjust and a load of other stuff. eventually you get two similar cars that are tweaked to suit the individual driver so its not fair to say the drivers input is overrated as the drivers input is fundamental.

what perhaps is closer to the truth is that the car is set up around the driver taking into account the cars and the drivers limitations :D

then the polterguist of race day strikes and the car you had set up perfectly the day before has been posessed by evil demons and handles like a hovercraft for some reason :bigcry:

[andreag]

how was the decision made the FA would have more fuel than FH for Q3 & the race start?
After Lewis cry post Montecarlo about he was told to slow (in fact both drivers were told to do it), causing a FIA investigation, Ron Dennis decided to give both drivers the same fuel load.

As I pointed before, on the next two races (Canada and USA), Fernando's set up was cloned by Lewis (every friday he was clearly slower, and then on saturday came a big improvement). Lewis himself admited he use to study Fernando's telemetry to find out where he was loosing time, and how he could improve.

If a driver have to race against another in the same car, with the same setup, the same fuel load, and the same strategy; there's no way to overtake him on track. So everything has to be decided in Q3.

In Canada, Fernando played the card to get the pole; he drove faster on the first of the two last attempts (.157 secs faster), and he was being faster on the last one (after the first two sectors), but run wide on the hairpin, and lost the lap. His only chance was passing Lewis on the first turn (something he used to do many times on Michelins, but he couldn't achieve on Bridgestones).

After loosing the second place in turn one, he had the bad luck of having to pit on lap 23 (he should have done it on 22, but RD change the order to protect Lewis from a SC); when the safety car came just after Lewis stop, there were no way to avoid a penalty as Fernando's deposit was empty. The race was thrown away.

In the US GP, he tried the same, and Lewis get benefit of two details; as being faster than his teammate on Q2, he would have 1 more fuel lap for the race (and for Q3); Lewis came first to the track, and pit later, so he could drive an extra lap on Q3. That means 2 laps heavier, with identical setup.

The result was Lewis qualifyed .169 secs faster, and with the same setup, and same strategy, there were no way to overtake during the race (nor on track, nor on pit stops).

In France Fernando change his strategy, and didn't setup the car on friday, so Lewis had to figure by himself how to do it. The gearbox problem, and the 105 kg. of fuel on second stop "mistake", threw his race again, but something else happened; Lewis loose half a minute to Ferraris. The advantage seemed to dissapeared, and the "Red Menace" flew over Ron Dennis head.

In England, where Lewis wanted to bright (and to do it he wanted the pole), Fernando hide his cards again on Friday, showing his potential on saturday, and convincing Ron that he had to try to fight against Ferrari, so he was allowed to load more fuel. He didn't worry about Lewis, as he knew he would be overtaken on the first stop, and despite the small mistake of not making a second stint 3 laps longer, he demonstrated two things; Ferrari was not so superior to McLaren (Kimi couldn't run from him when leading), and Lewis did the same than in France, finishing half a minute behind Ferrari.

Two races without the right setup, and two races clearly behind Ferrari. While Fernando, in the same car, was keeping a similar pace (and this is on two tracks where Ferrari should have an advantage).

In the next two races, this advantage will dissapear, and Mclaren should be faster than Ferrari (the tracks suit better to the british team). If Fernando keeps hiding his setup, and can qualify heavier (he doesn't need to be much heavier, two laps is enough), and nothing strange happens to any of the cars; we will see the real potential of both teams, and the real potential of the four drivers.

It's not good that a race can be decided for details like doing one extra lap in Q3, rather than for showing who's the best driver. But it seems this is the trend on actual F1, so if every detail has to count, every manouver to get a legitimate advantage has to be accepted (as hiding the right setup).

Anyway, it's almost two weeks until we can see it.

And before that, there're three days of Spa practice.

[ioan]

But the engineers do what the drivers ask to be done. Already you said that they receive feedback from drivers and then set up the car. Which means engineers are there to set up the car like the drivers want it to be. Not like the engineers want the car to be.

So at the end, for my view, the set up belong to the drivers and when the engineers don't do their job correctly, then it is up to drivers to struggle with the car. Unless when the drivers give wrong info or feedback (Lewis in Silvestone).

So the engineers either listen and do what drivers say or they screw up their setup? Have to love this funny comments!

And what would drivers do if there were no engineers? Some athletics maybe?!

[Daika]

Hesitated wheter i should join this debate but here i go:
nine starts, nine podiums whats the problem?

[ioan]

when the safety car came just after Lewis stop, there were no way to avoid a penalty as Fernando's deposit was empty.

You mean his fuel tank. I hope! ;)

[F1MAN2007]

So the engineers either listen and do what drivers say or they screw up their setup? Have to love this funny comments!

And what would drivers do if there were no engineers? Some athletics maybe?!

Between the egg and the chicken what came first?! :D

[ArrowsFA1]

Golf and F1 cant be compared. No matter how much you work, circumstances can ruin your race easily.
It's not about comparing sports, it's about an attitude, the amount of effort you are willing to put in, how many sacrifices you are willing to make. But if you must compare, circumstances can ruin a round just as much as a race.

As for the rest, I'm simply giving my opinion about a number of drivers. I'm not stating it as fact. Disagree if you wish.

[ioan]

Between the egg and the chicken what came first?! :D

The engineer!

[janneppi]

andreag, surely you regognize that the biggest reason for Hamilton's 30 second gaps (and propably Massa's 1 minute gap in Monaco) is they turned the rews down after second pitstop?

[Dave B]

The newspapers in the UK were pathetic on Monday morning, full of stuff like "He bLEW it" :rolleyes:

Yes it was a silly mistake, but there are very few drivers who haven't done the same. He'll learn from it.

Losing two seconds in the pitlane didn't cost him the race, poor setup did. If Massa hadn't stalled, Lewis may not have been on the podium.

And to think, we'd be thinking that 4th place for a rookie wasn't very good! :eek:

Nine podiums from nine attempts, two wins and leading the World Championship. I'd give the guy a break!

[samuratt]

After Lewis cry post Montecarlo about he was told to slow (in fact both drivers were told to do it), causing a FIA investigation, Ron Dennis decided to give both drivers the same fuel load.

As I pointed before, on the next two races (Canada and USA), Fernando's set up was cloned by Lewis (every friday he was clearly slower, and then on saturday came a big improvement). Lewis himself admited he use to study Fernando's telemetry to find out where he was loosing time, and how he could improve.

If a driver have to race against another in the same car, with the same setup, the same fuel load, and the same strategy; there's no way to overtake him on track. So everything has to be decided in Q3.

In Canada, Fernando played the card to get the pole; he drove faster on the first of the two last attempts (.157 secs faster), and he was being faster on the last one (after the first two sectors), but run wide on the hairpin, and lost the lap. His only chance was passing Lewis on the first turn (something he used to do many times on Michelins, but he couldn't achieve on Bridgestones).

After loosing the second place in turn one, he had the bad luck of having to pit on lap 23 (he should have done it on 22, but RD change the order to protect Lewis from a SC); when the safety car came just after Lewis stop, there were no way to avoid a penalty as Fernando's deposit was empty. The race was thrown away.

In the US GP, he tried the same, and Lewis get benefit of two details; as being faster than his teammate on Q2, he would have 1 more fuel lap for the race (and for Q3); Lewis came first to the track, and pit later, so he could drive an extra lap on Q3. That means 2 laps heavier, with identical setup.

The result was Lewis qualifyed .169 secs faster, and with the same setup, and same strategy, there were no way to overtake during the race (nor on track, nor on pit stops).

In France Fernando change his strategy, and didn't setup the car on friday, so Lewis had to figure by himself how to do it. The gearbox problem, and the 105 kg. of fuel on second stop "mistake", threw his race again, but something else happened; Lewis loose half a minute to Ferraris. The advantage seemed to dissapeared, and the "Red Menace" flew over Ron Dennis head.

In England, where Lewis wanted to bright (and to do it he wanted the pole), Fernando hide his cards again on Friday, showing his potential on saturday, and convincing Ron that he had to try to fight against Ferrari, so he was allowed to load more fuel. He didn't worry about Lewis, as he knew he would be overtaken on the first stop, and despite the small mistake of not making a second stint 3 laps longer, he demonstrated two things; Ferrari was not so superior to McLaren (Kimi couldn't run from him when leading), and Lewis did the same than in France, finishing half a minute behind Ferrari.

Two races without the right setup, and two races clearly behind Ferrari. While Fernando, in the same car, was keeping a similar pace (and this is on two tracks where Ferrari should have an advantage).

In the next two races, this advantage will dissapear, and Mclaren should be faster than Ferrari (the tracks suit better to the british team). If Fernando keeps hiding his setup, and can qualify heavier (he doesn't need to be much heavier, two laps is enough), and nothing strange happens to any of the cars; we will see the real potential of both teams, and the real potential of the four drivers.

It's not good that a race can be decided for details like doing one extra lap in Q3, rather than for showing who's the best driver. But it seems this is the trend on actual F1, so if every detail has to count, every manouver to get a legitimate advantage has to be accepted (as hiding the right setup).

Anyway, it's almost two weeks until we can see it.

And before that, there're three days of Spa practice.


I liked it! :up:

[andreag]

andreag, surely you regognize that the biggest reason for Hamilton's 30 second gaps (and propably Massa's 1 minute gap in Monaco) is they turned the rews down after second pitstop?
Surely I don't recognize it, specially because is not true.

Let's have a look at the real data (not the personal impressions, or the TV commentators assertions):

British GP

1st stint
Complete laps: 14.
Fastest lap: 1.21:675.
Slowest lap: 1.22:821.
Average lap: 1.22:048.

2nd stint
Complete laps: 20.
Fastest lap: 1.22:127.
Slowest lap: 1.23:704.
Average lap: 1.22:996.

3rd stint
Complete laps: 20.
Fastest lap: 1.22:498.
Slowest lap: 1.23:689.
Average lap: 1.23:085.

On the first stint, running 6 laps lighter, he did a best lap only .452 secs. faster than on the second stint, and the average lap was below one second faster than later, due to the weight difference.

On the second stint, knowing he would run longer, and having chances to catch Kimi (the Ferrari rejoined just two seconds before him), he didn't throw away, as he was driving as fast as his heavier car allowed him.

On the third stint, when it was clear he had no chances to win a position, and behind him, Kubica wasn't faster than him, he could low revs to save engine (as you stated), but times denied it.

His average lap time during this 20 laps (with the same fuel load than in the second stint) is just 0.089 secs slower (less than a tenth!), and even his slowest lap during this stint (which includes the last lap) is faster tan the slowest on second stint.

When a driver low revs, his lap times show it clearly, and 0.089 secs is not a sign of lowering revs. He was simply slower than Kimi and Fernando; exactly 0.65 secs. per lap.

[Dzeidzei]

Between the egg and the chicken what came first?! :D


->But the engineers do what the drivers ask to be done. Already you said that they receive feedback from drivers and then set up the car. Which means engineers are there to set up the car like the drivers want it to be. Not like the engineers want the car to be.


I think this is evidence on that you really dont have a clue, F1man. Or you do but you fail to formulate it?

Either way, the setup is definitely more about the engineering team. The driver can only give feedback, he doesnt go around saying "you need to adjust the front wing 2.5 degrees".

But the question about LH using Alonso´s setup is interesting. If Lewis was 1.5 seconds slower Fernando could not care less. His latest comments suggests that he really fears Lewis.

[johnny shell]

I'm learning a lot here. thanks!

so McLaren decides how much fuel each driver gets for Q3 & the race based on how they do in Q2?

[Ian McC]

I'm learning a lot here. thanks!

Only as long as you have a well tuned bulls**t detector ;)

[donKey jote]

I like you andrea :andrea: :p :
It would be great if your analysis is true :D
On the other hand, I like what I've seen of Lewis too (apart from the chops, the whinging at monaco and the possible -pardon the cycling analogy- "chuparuedas" part in his success so far)... so I can't say I'm too happy deep down with Alonso hiding info from his team mate. OK I'll admit it, it's only deep deep deep down :p :
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[Ian McC]

Seems to be a lot of people that think that someone who has managed 9 podiums in a row and been GP2 champion cannot, with the help of his team of course, have any sort of clue how to set his car up?

Right :rolleyes:

[donKey jote]

no Ian, nobody has said Lewis hasn't any sort of clue. Some have suggested, and made a plausible* argument supporting the suggestion, that he might be receiving more than he is giving in this aspect (so far).
Lewis looks and has been extraordinarily good so far, no doubt about it.
Some say, the sun shines out of his backside and every other driver present and past is a donkey. Right? :rolleyes:


*plausible by forum standards at least :D

[truefan72]

what a bunch of rubish

1. If he did have the same set up as Alonso, then he is naturally faster than Alonso following the logic of their argument.

2. If his engineers set up the cars on the same shared date that both camps have, then he has gotten the better of Alonso as the facts show.

3. 9 races, 9 podiums, leading the WDC by 12 points. AS A ROOKIE.
He could finish dead last in the next race and still be leading going into Hungary.

4. Andreag's predictions are more wishful thinking than anything. It is more plausible to beleive that LH will win another coupole of races before the season ends, based on his performance to date. If anything, he will most likeley never finish lower than 5th barring any accidents or mechanical issues.
LH is sitting in pole position in terms of the WDC. It is his championship to loose. If he keeps up his consitency and wins 1-or 2 more races, he will most likely win the WDC this year. Which at that point, I'm sure his detractors will find some new excuse to explain their drivers woes compared to LH.

btw drivers are rarily honest when talking about their race day performances when things aren't going their way. The most arrogant of them usually can never see fault in their performance and see fit to blame everything from slower traffic to instruments falling on the front wing the night before. Moderate others will blame poor set up, trye choices, strategy, the track ( for lack of passing) , aeroe etc for their inabilty. Very, very few will honestly say they didn't have the pace today or simply could not get it done.

[stevie_gerrard]

I always knew there would be too high expectations of him after such a wonderful start to his F1 career, some people seem to forget this is his first season, and he's finished on the podium in all 9 races! that is some acheivement, and every setback he has will only make him stronger for the many races to come :)

[donKey jote]

@truefan

1. if then yabba
2. ditto
3. agreed :up:
4. barring accidents or mechanical issues... or safety cars. agreed. same could be said of all 4 drivers in the top cars.

Some say, the sun shines out of his backside and every other driver present and past is at most a lucky arrogant donkey. Right?

Wasn't it LH mentioning setup in Silverstone, while Alonso admitted he didn't have the pace of the Ferrari ?

Lewis is good, a talent, no doubt about it, and I'd bet he has surprised even his "true" fans. Why all the Alonso bashing from some of them though? Totally unnecessary in my humble opinion :dozey:
Why not just sit back and enjoy what could be the closest season in a long time? :)

[ioan]

Surely I don't recognize it, specially because is not true.

Let's have a look at the real data (not the personal impressions, or the TV commentators assertions):

British GP

1st stint
Complete laps: 14.
Fastest lap: 1.21:675.
Slowest lap: 1.22:821.
Average lap: 1.22:048.

2nd stint
Complete laps: 20.
Fastest lap: 1.22:127.
Slowest lap: 1.23:704.
Average lap: 1.22:996.

3rd stint
Complete laps: 20.
Fastest lap: 1.22:498.
Slowest lap: 1.23:689.
Average lap: 1.23:085.

On the first stint, running 6 laps lighter, he did a best lap only .452 secs. faster than on the second stint, and the average lap was below one second faster than later, due to the weight difference.

On the second stint, knowing he would run longer, and having chances to catch Kimi (the Ferrari rejoined just two seconds before him), he didn't throw away, as he was driving as fast as his heavier car allowed him.

On the third stint, when it was clear he had no chances to win a position, and behind him, Kubica wasn't faster than him, he could low revs to save engine (as you stated), but times denied it.

His average lap time during this 20 laps (with the same fuel load than in the second stint) is just 0.089 secs slower (less than a tenth!), and even his slowest lap during this stint (which includes the last lap) is faster tan the slowest on second stint.

When a driver low revs, his lap times show it clearly, and 0.089 secs is not a sign of lowering revs. He was simply slower than Kimi and Fernando; exactly 0.65 secs. per lap.

Good analysis! :up:

[ioan]

Some say, the sun shines out of his backside...

That might be one of the reasons why people from foggy Great Britain are so in ave with him! :laugh:


and every other driver present and past is a donkey. Right? :rolleyes:

You mean "monkeys"! ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Funny thing about this setup thing...if Lewis is getting better results using Fernando's setup (I only said if ;) ) then what does that say about their comparative abilities?

[janneppi]

Surely I don't recognize it, specially because is not true.

Let's have a look at the real data (not the personal impressions, or the TV commentators assertions):

British GP

1st stint
Complete laps: 14.
Fastest lap: 1.21:675.
Slowest lap: 1.22:821.
Average lap: 1.22:048.

2nd stint
Complete laps: 20.
Fastest lap: 1.22:127.
Slowest lap: 1.23:704.
Average lap: 1.22:996.

3rd stint
Complete laps: 20.
Fastest lap: 1.22:498.
Slowest lap: 1.23:689.
Average lap: 1.23:085.

On the first stint, running 6 laps lighter, he did a best lap only .452 secs. faster than on the second stint, and the average lap was below one second faster than later, due to the weight difference.

On the second stint, knowing he would run longer, and having chances to catch Kimi (the Ferrari rejoined just two seconds before him), he didn't throw away, as he was driving as fast as his heavier car allowed him.

On the third stint, when it was clear he had no chances to win a position, and behind him, Kubica wasn't faster than him, he could low revs to save engine (as you stated), but times denied it.

His average lap time during this 20 laps (with the same fuel load than in the second stint) is just 0.089 secs slower (less than a tenth!), and even his slowest lap during this stint (which includes the last lap) is faster tan the slowest on second stint.

When a driver low revs, his lap times show it clearly, and 0.089 secs is not a sign of lowering revs. He was simply slower than Kimi and Fernando; exactly 0.65 secs. per lap.

Thanks for the info, where did you found it, I'd be curious to see Alonso's and Kimi's times as well, seeing as they were on different tyre strategies.
Alonso was H M H
Lewis was H H M
Ferrari's were M M H
How much would they account for, Dennis mentioned them driving on a wrong tyre strategy.

Also Lewis's first stint best time is lap 11, when he had five laps wort of fuel, Alonsos lap was two laps before he pitted and was only 0.56 secs faster, with better tyres ;)

[ioan]

How much would they account for, Dennis mentioned them driving on a wrong tyre strategy.

Dennis will find a reason for anything that goes wrong, but it will never be that they were simply slow.

[janneppi]

Now why wasn't i surprised to see that reply, ioan. :p :
You do realise their tyre strategy was different from Ferrari and admitted it was a mistake? Or was the tyre info just a lie from FIA to lift Lewis and Alonso?. ;)

[andreag]

Thanks for the info, where did you found it,
http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1691928274__GB_Race_Lap_Analysis_07.pdf

And you can find every data here:

http://www.fia.com/britishgp/timing.html

There you have all data from every car/driver, from every session of every GP.


I'd be curious to see Alonso's and Kimi's times as well, seeing as they were on different tyre strategies.
Alonso was H M H
Lewis was H H M
Ferrari's were M M H
If your fluent on Excel, it's very easy to do. But I did it for you (I didn't count Felipe, as he drove almost the entire GP behind someone else):

FERNANDO ALONSO

1st stint (H)
Complete laps: 18.
Fastest lap: 1.21:459.
Slowest lap: 1.22:798.
Average lap: 1.21:966.

2nd stint (M)
Complete laps: 15.
Fastest lap: 1.21:117.
Slowest lap: 1.23:498.
Average lap: 1.22:018.

3rd stint (H)
Complete laps: 21.
Fastest lap: 1.21:966.
Slowest lap: 1.23:191.
Average lap: 1.22:445.


LEWIS HAMILTON

1st stint (H)
Complete laps: 14.
Fastest lap: 1.21:675.
Slowest lap: 1.22:821.
Average lap: 1.22:048.

2nd stint (H)
Complete laps: 20.
Fastest lap: 1.22:127.
Slowest lap: 1.23:704.
Average lap: 1.22:996.

3rd stint (M)
Complete laps: 20.
Fastest lap: 1.22:498.
Slowest lap: 1.23:689.
Average lap: 1.23:085.


KIMI RAIKKÖNEN

1st stint (M)
Complete laps: 16.
Fastest lap: 1.20:638.
Slowest lap: 1.22:698.
Average lap: 1.21:923.

2nd stint (M)
Complete laps: 23.
Fastest lap: 1.20:998.
Slowest lap: 1.22:822.
Average lap: 1.22:013.

3rd stint (H)
Complete laps: 14.
Fastest lap: 1.21:486.
Slowest lap: 1.23:151.
Average lap: 1.22:357.

(I didn't count Kimi's last lap (1.25:584), as it would disguise the results.


How much would they account for, Dennis mentioned them driving on a wrong tyre strategy.
Ron lied. McLaren performance didn't show a clear benefit of using the medium compound instead of the hard one, but did it about the fuel load.

Fernando's data are dificult to analyze, as he was on medium tyres on his shorter stint, when he did his fastest lap, but also his slowest one. This lap disguise the results, so if we didn't count it his data for the second stint would be:

2nd stint (M)
Complete laps: 14.
Fastest lap: 1.21:117.
Slowest lap: 1.22:435.
Average lap: 1.21:912.

That's the better average, and it could be due to the tyres, or to the fuel load, but Lewis data shows the reason. His last two stints (with the same fuel load, but different compounds) showed similar results, while the first one (much lighter), is clearly faster than the second, despite the fact of having the same compound.

My conclusion is (as Fernando said before the race) they didn't found big differences between both compounds (remember Fernando got the fastest lap of the weekend, in Q2, on the harder tyres); but the influence came more from fuel loads (that's the reason of my assertion about 3 more laps on the second stint (with a lighter car, when he did his fastest lap) would have given him the race.

It's a McLaren mistake (pitting after Kimi, they should have copied his strategy to win), and Dennis it's trying to put the attention away talking about compounds.

However Ferrari was much better on medium tyres. With a similar fuel load (remember I didn't count last lap), he was faster on first stint, compared to the third one. Of course he was driving behind a slower Lewis during almost the entire 1st stint, but the second one (also heavier), was his best, wich allowed him to pass Fernando on the second pit stop, thanks to a better strategy.

[janneppi]

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1691928274__GB_Race_Lap_Analysis_07.pdf

And you can find every data here:

http://www.fia.com/britishgp/timing.html

There you have all data from every car/driver, from every session of every GP.



Thanks, i didn't know there was such data available. :up:

[F1MAN2007]

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1691928274__GB_Race_Lap_Analysis_07.pdf

And you can find every data here:

http://www.fia.com/britishgp/timing.html

There you have all data from every car/driver, from every session of every GP.


If your fluent on Excel, it's very easy to do. But I did it for you (I didn't count Felipe, as he drove almost the entire GP behind someone else):

FERNANDO ALONSO

1st stint (H)
Complete laps: 18.
Fastest lap: 1.21:459.
Slowest lap: 1.22:798.
Average lap: 1.21:966.

2nd stint (M)
Complete laps: 15.
Fastest lap: 1.21:117.
Slowest lap: 1.23:498.
Average lap: 1.22:018.

3rd stint (H)
Complete laps: 21.
Fastest lap: 1.21:966.
Slowest lap: 1.23:191.
Average lap: 1.22:445.


LEWIS HAMILTON

1st stint (H)
Complete laps: 14.
Fastest lap: 1.21:675.
Slowest lap: 1.22:821.
Average lap: 1.22:048.

2nd stint (H)
Complete laps: 20.
Fastest lap: 1.22:127.
Slowest lap: 1.23:704.
Average lap: 1.22:996.

3rd stint (M)
Complete laps: 20.
Fastest lap: 1.22:498.
Slowest lap: 1.23:689.
Average lap: 1.23:085.


KIMI RAIKKÖNEN

1st stint (M)
Complete laps: 16.
Fastest lap: 1.20:638.
Slowest lap: 1.22:698.
Average lap: 1.21:923.

2nd stint (M)
Complete laps: 23.
Fastest lap: 1.20:998.
Slowest lap: 1.22:822.
Average lap: 1.22:013.

3rd stint (H)
Complete laps: 14.
Fastest lap: 1.21:486.
Slowest lap: 1.23:151.
Average lap: 1.22:357.

(I didn't count Kimi's last lap (1.25:584), as it would disguise the results.


Ron lied. McLaren performance didn't show a clear benefit of using the medium compound instead of the hard one, but did it about the fuel load.

Fernando's data are dificult to analyze, as he was on medium tyres on his shorter stint, when he did his fastest lap, but also his slowest one. This lap disguise the results, so if we didn't count it his data for the second stint would be:

2nd stint (M)
Complete laps: 14.
Fastest lap: 1.21:117.
Slowest lap: 1.22:435.
Average lap: 1.21:912.

That's the better average, and it could be due to the tyres, or to the fuel load, but Lewis data shows the reason. His last two stints (with the same fuel load, but different compounds) showed similar results, while the first one (much lighter), is clearly faster than the second, despite the fact of having the same compound.

My conclusion is (as Fernando said before the race) they didn't found big differences between both compounds (remember Fernando got the fastest lap of the weekend, in Q2, on the harder tyres); but the influence came more from fuel loads (that's the reason of my assertion about 3 more laps on the second stint (with a lighter car, when he did his fastest lap) would have given him the race.

It's a McLaren mistake (pitting after Kimi, they should have copied his strategy to win), and Dennis it's trying to put the attention away talking about compounds.

However Ferrari was much better on medium tyres. With a similar fuel load (remember I didn't count last lap), he was faster on first stint, compared to the third one. Of course he was driving behind a slower Lewis during almost the entire 1st stint, but the second one (also heavier), was his best, wich allowed him to pass Fernando on the second pit stop, thanks to a better strategy.

:up: Good analysis Sir.

[janneppi]

Fernando's data are dificult to analyze, as he was on medium tyres on his shorter stint, when he did his fastest lap, but also his slowest one. This lap disguise the results, so if we didn't count it his data for the second stint would be:

2nd stint (M)
Complete laps: 14.
Fastest lap: 1.21:117.
Slowest lap: 1.22:435.
Average lap: 1.21:912.

That's the better average, and it could be due to the tyres, or to the fuel load, but Lewis data shows the reason. His last two stints (with the same fuel load, but different compounds) showed similar results, while the first one (much lighter), is clearly faster than the second, despite the fact of having the same compound.

My conclusion is (as Fernando said before the race) they didn't found big differences between both compounds (remember Fernando got the fastest lap of the weekend, in Q2, on the harder tyres); but the influence came more from fuel loads (that's the reason of my assertion about 3 more laps on the second stint (with a lighter car, when he did his fastest lap) would have given him the race.

It's a McLaren mistake (pitting after Kimi, they should have copied his strategy to win), and Dennis it's trying to put the attention away talking about compounds.


Fernando's fastest lap with medium compound was 3 tenths faster than with harder compound(just before pit stops where he had pretty much same fuel load)
That suggest medium was the faster tire for Alonso too, despite what he said before the race, when Ron also though that was the case. Despite you saying he's a liar. Why do you think Alonso tells the truth? ;)

Hamilton's pace began slowing down after his first pit stop from 1:22:6 to 1:23:4 (ish) when his pace should have been improving as car became lighter.
Alonso was lapping on average about second faster than him during those laps. Actually two seconds faster the laps before pit stops.
Fuel isn't much of a factor between laps 26-36 because they had about the same fuel levels(Alonso pits lap 37, Hamilton pits lap 38) , but I have to say tyres must be a factor.
(I think Hamilton suffered traffic more than Alonso, perhaps experience showed there)
Or perhaps he didn't push 100% for some reason.
-team
-tyres graining
-car misbehaving
-...take your pick

[samuratt]

Or perhaps he didn't push 100% for some reason.
-team
-tyres graining
-car misbehaving
-...take your pick

Maybe he did push 100% but couldn't match the laptimes ;)

[janneppi]

Maybe he did push 100% but couldn't match the laptimes ;)
So Hamiltons skill level suddenly dropped two seconds. :D

[F1MAN2007]

I think there is another reason we may talk about after analysing the data which shows that Lewis was slow more than 1 sec per lap to his main rival.

I think the Guy was looking tired even before the race, and this due to all meetings, marketing issues, he has been doing since one week before the GP. This may have been played in his poor performance at Silvestone.

[Garry Walker]

Thats where I read about it.

Well, I must be blind then, but I didnt notice anything about what you claim there.


Funny thing about this setup thing...if Lewis is getting better results using Fernando's setup (I only said if ;) ) then what does that say about their comparative abilities?

Even suggesting that sends the Alonso fanatics into overdrive.

[johnny shell]

FA's fastest laps on the M tires was great, but those softer tires go off after just a few laps then they're slower.

[andreag]

Fernando's fastest lap with medium compound was 3 tenths faster than with harder compound(just before pit stops where he had pretty much same fuel load)
That suggest medium was the faster tire for Alonso too, despite what he said before the race, when Ron also though that was the case. Despite you saying he's a liar. Why do you think Alonso tells the truth? ;)
I'll tell you why I think it. Look at the last four laps of 1st and 2nd stints:

1st stint:
16 1:21.769

17 1:21.588
18 1:21.459
19 1:21.459

2nd stint
33 1:21.727
34 1:21.657
35 1:21.117
36 1:21.383

The average lap on first stint is 1:21.471, while on second stint is 1:21.569 (less than a tenth faster on tyres much less used, and don't forget McLaren trend to produce graining on long stints). This is not a clear sign of a better tyre performance.


Hamilton's pace began slowing down after his first pit stop from 1:22:6 to 1:23:4 (ish) when his pace should have been improving as car became lighter.
Alonso was lapping on average about second faster than him during those laps. Actually two seconds faster the laps before pit stops.
Fuel isn't much of a factor between laps 26-36 because they had about the same fuel levels(Alonso pits lap 37, Hamilton pits lap 38) , but I have to say tyres must be a factor.
(I think Hamilton suffered traffic more than Alonso, perhaps experience showed there).
Again tyres are not the factor but how every driver was facing the traffic. And here's where the most valuable tool is the Race History Chart:

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1716041431__GB_Race_History_Chart_07.pdf

You'll see between laps 27 to 36 how they had to lap Liuzzi, Sato, Rosberg, Trulli, Coulthard and Barrichello. Fernando and Kimi lapped them faster than Lewis did, and that's what make a difference.

I think experience it's the reason, as you pointed out.

[F1MAN2007]

He is still learning that is why we should give him sometimes.

Sometimes you got caught by inexperience and this is not his mistake.

[Dave B]

The simple fact is that even if Hamilton crashes out of the remaining races and fails to score another point, he'll have still had an amazing season by rookie standards.

[ArrowsFA1]

Even suggesting that sends the Alonso fanatics into overdrive.
:p

My view is that McLaren's policy of sharing data between drivers is a good thing. It helps the team progress quicker/better which in turn produces better results. The alternative of denying/refusing access to data may help one side of the garage but it doesn't help the team.

I've said before that Hamilton is almost certainly benefitting from Alonso's experience, at least at the start of the weekend, but the idea that he has had 9 consecutive podiums only because of this is simplistic at best.

Equally, you can understand Alonso's frustration at his team-mate doing the job he's doing with all this in mind, but the bottom line is no racing driver worth his salt likes to be beaten.

[F1MAN2007]

Coming on college life, no one would like to see his stuff copied by others and score more points than him/her while all the stuff is coming from you.

So, it is the same sort between Alonso and Lewis. And Alonso is not the first to claim this. We remember what MS (as we reconsider as a legend in this sport?!) did in the same case. Just stoping the sharing data with his team mate.

I am not saying that Alonso has to do so, for me he wanted a challenge and he has got one. So nice to review his strategy and stop moarning (even if he is my hero) and then respond by acts.

With someone said above, it is true sharing data is benefiting for the team, but since few races ago, even if the Mclaren may line up 1-2 at the end of each GP (whoever is 1st and 2nd), some people there will never smile because they want to show a good behaviour that they are supporting the winner as well the looser. Already RD said that is struggling to balance the team behaviours and he is the one who is struggling too much than others. So imagine what is going on between the mechanics of both side?!

Also the relationship between Alonso and Lewis is worse than ever (I didn't see them talking together even a single word from the race track to the press conference). And the team of course, as I said in one thread, will pay back late for this.

[555-04Q2]

Well, I must be blind then, but I didnt notice anything about what you claim there.

Then it must have been moved or deleted as it was a few weeks back.

[555-04Q2]

My view is that McLaren's policy of sharing data between drivers is a good thing. It helps the team progress quicker/better which in turn produces better results. The alternative of denying/refusing access to data may help one side of the garage but it doesn't help the team.

Indeed :up:

Happens with a lot of drivers and teams. Hell, Schumi used to use Rubens race setup and Rubens used to use Schumis race setup at times.

Thats why its called a TEAM.

[janneppi]

I'll tell you why I think it. Look at the last four laps of 1st and 2nd stints:

1st stint:
16 1:21.769

17 1:21.588
18 1:21.459
19 1:21.459
20 1:27.302*


2nd stint
33 1:21.727
34 1:21.657
35 1:21.117
36 1:21.383
37 1:26.653*

[*added laps 20 and 37 Janneppi]


The average lap on first stint is 1:21.471, while on second stint is 1:21.569 (less than a tenth faster on tyres much less used, and don't forget McLaren trend to produce graining on long stints). This is not a clear sign of a better tyre performance.

I'm not sure a simple average lap tells the whole story, because of the traffic in second stint.
I did a nice graph of Alonsos and Hamiltons lap times of course i didn't bring my work lap top home and my home computer hasn't got Excel :)
If you can't wait till tomorrow, you can do the same yourself. :)

I always though that McLaren were easy on the tyres, that was the one of the reasons they did well in 2005 compared to 2006, or has Alonso's input changed that?





Again tyres are not the factor but how every driver was facing the traffic.
You'll see between laps 27 to 36 how they had to lap Liuzzi, Sato, Rosberg, Trulli, Coulthard and Barrichello. Fernando and Kimi lapped them faster than Lewis did, and that's what make a difference.

I think experience it's the reason, as you pointed out.
Isn't it nice, we reach and agreement that is completely different than where we started. :D
Altough, one could say Alonso and Kimi were able to lap people better than Lewis because they had Medium's on. :D

[andreag]

If you can't wait till tomorrow, you can do the same yourself. :)
I'll wait; I'm too busy this evening finishing a flash web page and setting up a desktop computer.


I always though that McLaren were easy on the tyres, that was the one of the reasons they did well in 2005 compared to 2006, or has Alonso's input changed that?
This year, with BS, McLaren is faster than Ferrari to get the right tyre temperature (good for qualifying), but this pays on terms of faster tyre degradation.

[ioan]

Altough, one could say Alonso and Kimi were able to lap people better than Lewis because they had Medium's on. :D

Hmm, I thought he was however way faster than the backmarkers!

[jso1985]

The simple fact is that even if Hamilton crashes out of the remaining races and fails to score another point, he'll have still had an amazing season by rookie standards.

exactly! :up:

He wasn't the fastest driver last Sunday in Silverstone, no doubt about it, we could even say that KR and FA kicked his butt. Yet let's be honest 9 races, 9 podiums, in rookie standards he's doind wonderful

[wedge]

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Ted_Kravitz&PO_ID=40023

Lewis seems to have a habit of making the wrong call on tyre pressures. I remember he had a similar problem with his second stints in Bahrain and Malaysia.

[janneppi]

Ted's analysis's value is somewhat hindered by the fact that he was wrong on what tires drivers used on their stints. ;)

[janneppi]

I'll wait; I'm too busy this evening finishing a flash web page and setting up a desktop computer.

Lewis lost ten seconds during laps 32-36,Alonso's 37 was also quite fast when compared to Hamilton's lap 36 and 37, that's 12 seconds in six laps.

http://www.students.tut.fi/%7Epoutiaij/laps.jpg

[samuratt]

:p

My view is that McLaren's policy of sharing data between drivers is a good thing. It helps the team progress quicker/better which in turn produces better results. The alternative of denying/refusing access to data may help one side of the garage but it doesn't help the team.

I've said before that Hamilton is almost certainly benefitting from Alonso's experience, at least at the start of the weekend, but the idea that he has had 9 consecutive podiums only because of this is simplistic at best.

Equally, you can understand Alonso's frustration at his team-mate doing the job he's doing with all this in mind, but the bottom line is no racing driver worth his salt likes to be beaten.

I can agree with your last two sentences. Lewis is "being helped" by Alonso in some ways.

About your first sentence, i think that McLaren should look back to Ferrari, to see and learn how a good "team" is managed. As someone pointed out before, having Lewis and Alonso as enemies in your garage can be a problem in the very near future. This is not good for the team, altough they are the team to beat for now.

[ArrowsFA1]

...i think that McLaren should look back to Ferrari, to see and learn how a good "team" is managed.
In answer to that I'd say that McLaren have managed perfectly well with the way they do things. Their driver partnerships over the last 20 or so years have won many WDC's and WCC's.

Ferrari chose to go down the route of focussing on one driver for a decade and that also resulted in many titles for driver and team.

Two different ways of achieving results, but I know which one I prefer :)

[Dave B]

It's difficult to imagine two team mates harder to manage than Prost and Senna, yet somehow McLaren seemed to scrape by... ;)

[ShiftingGears]

I find it quite interesting how McLaren managed not to suffer results wise by not having team orders while they had Senna and Prost on at the same time and yet no team orders cost Williams titles in both 1981 and 1986.

[555-04Q2]

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Ted_Kravitz&PO_ID=40023

Lewis seems to have a habit of making the wrong call on tyre pressures. I remember he had a similar problem with his second stints in Bahrain and Malaysia.

Rookie mistakes more than likely. He will improve.

[ioan]

Wrong rear suspension setup, misdiagnosed oversteer in the first stint, all these show that he isn't up there with the best in overall performance.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2491681,00.html

[ArrowsFA1]

In an intriguing twist to the in-house McLaren battle for the World Championship, it is suggested...
By whom :confused: The article reads like a piece of headline grabbing fiction.

"intriguing twist", "sabotage", "sent down a dead-end by the cunning Spaniard", "Alonso reflected smugly" :rolleyes:

[wedge]

I find it quite interesting how McLaren managed not to suffer results wise by not having team orders while they had Senna and Prost on at the same time and yet no team orders cost Williams titles in both 1981 and 1986.

Actually, there were team orders. Prost proposed to Senna that whoever led the race at the first corner should go on to win the race. At the 1989 San Marino GP, Senna thought he found a loophole in the gentleman's agreement in that he overtook Prost on the restart because of Berger's horrific accident at Tamburello. That was the point where you knew that the pair would end in tears. Ron wanted Senna to apologise but Senna and Prost pretty much hated each other by that point and there was little dialogue between them up until 1993.

Williams used to issue team orders. At on race Carlos Reutimann disobeyed team orders and overtook Alan Jones. AJ was incensed and Frank thought team orders was more hassle than its worth and decreed not to use team orders again. Williams doesn't care who wins as long as they score as many points for the team.

1986 season is the one where the WDC was wide open. 1981 - Peter Windsor and Frank Williams have gone on record that they've regretted how they handled a hot/cold Reutimann who was an introvert in the garages and needed confidence and TLC to get the best out of him.

[truefan72]

@truefan

1. if then yabba
2. ditto
3. agreed :up:
4. barring accidents or mechanical issues... or safety cars. agreed. same could be said of all 4 drivers in the top cars.

Some say, the sun shines out of his backside and every other driver present and past is at most a lucky arrogant donkey. Right?

Wasn't it LH mentioning setup in Silverstone, while Alonso admitted he didn't have the pace of the Ferrari ?

Lewis is good, a talent, no doubt about it, and I'd bet he has surprised even his "true" fans. Why all the Alonso bashing from some of them though? Totally unnecessary in my humble opinion :dozey:
Why not just sit back and enjoy what could be the closest season in a long time? :)

Cool Donkey, I agree. It's bbe a terrific season so far, 4 drivers competing for the WDC. 2 sets of teamates, 2 intramural battles, great stuff.

but

It is funny that when Alonso gives one so much fodder in his comments, being critical of said comments is considered bashing. If Alonso had made half as many weird and clearly dubious comments about his role in the team, his Car, LH and more following every poor performance or preceeding every race, then we won't have much to talk about. At best we would say that this is turning into an interesting battle at the highest Caliber with both drivers wanting to win. But Alonso continues to stoke the fire in his attempt at playing tactical mind games with LH. So far it hasn't worked, and all it has done is encourage many of us here to question the soundness of his comments.

Nobody here woke up one morning and decided to simply bash Alonso.
...wait I take that back. There are a few out there who do post to infuriate fans of select drivers. But the majority of us here react more to what's being said and what goes on rather than trying to create the controversy.

[truefan72]

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1691928274__GB_Race_Lap_Analysis_07.pdf

And you can find every data here:

http://www.fia.com/britishgp/timing.html

There you have all data from every car/driver, from every session of every GP.


If your fluent on Excel, it's very easy to do. But I did it for you (I didn't count Felipe, as he drove almost the entire GP behind someone else):

FERNANDO ALONSO

1st stint (H)
Complete laps: 18.
Fastest lap: 1.21:459.
Slowest lap: 1.22:798.
Average lap: 1.21:966.

2nd stint (M)
Complete laps: 15.
Fastest lap: 1.21:117.
Slowest lap: 1.23:498.
Average lap: 1.22:018.

3rd stint (H)
Complete laps: 21.
Fastest lap: 1.21:966.
Slowest lap: 1.23:191.
Average lap: 1.22:445.


LEWIS HAMILTON

1st stint (H)
Complete laps: 14.
Fastest lap: 1.21:675.
Slowest lap: 1.22:821.
Average lap: 1.22:048.

2nd stint (H)
Complete laps: 20.
Fastest lap: 1.22:127.
Slowest lap: 1.23:704.
Average lap: 1.22:996.

3rd stint (M)
Complete laps: 20.
Fastest lap: 1.22:498.
Slowest lap: 1.23:689.
Average lap: 1.23:085.


KIMI RAIKKÖNEN

1st stint (M)
Complete laps: 16.
Fastest lap: 1.20:638.
Slowest lap: 1.22:698.
Average lap: 1.21:923.

2nd stint (M)
Complete laps: 23.
Fastest lap: 1.20:998.
Slowest lap: 1.22:822.
Average lap: 1.22:013.

3rd stint (H)
Complete laps: 14.
Fastest lap: 1.21:486.
Slowest lap: 1.23:151.
Average lap: 1.22:357.

(I didn't count Kimi's last lap (1.25:584), as it would disguise the results.


Ron lied. McLaren performance didn't show a clear benefit of using the medium compound instead of the hard one, but did it about the fuel load.

Fernando's data are dificult to analyze, as he was on medium tyres on his shorter stint, when he did his fastest lap, but also his slowest one. This lap disguise the results, so if we didn't count it his data for the second stint would be:

2nd stint (M)
Complete laps: 14.
Fastest lap: 1.21:117.
Slowest lap: 1.22:435.
Average lap: 1.21:912.

That's the better average, and it could be due to the tyres, or to the fuel load, but Lewis data shows the reason. His last two stints (with the same fuel load, but different compounds) showed similar results, while the first one (much lighter), is clearly faster than the second, despite the fact of having the same compound.

My conclusion is (as Fernando said before the race) they didn't found big differences between both compounds (remember Fernando got the fastest lap of the weekend, in Q2, on the harder tyres); but the influence came more from fuel loads (that's the reason of my assertion about 3 more laps on the second stint (with a lighter car, when he did his fastest lap) would have given him the race.

It's a McLaren mistake (pitting after Kimi, they should have copied his strategy to win), and Dennis it's trying to put the attention away talking about compounds.

However Ferrari was much better on medium tyres. With a similar fuel load (remember I didn't count last lap), he was faster on first stint, compared to the third one. Of course he was driving behind a slower Lewis during almost the entire 1st stint, but the second one (also heavier), was his best, wich allowed him to pass Fernando on the second pit stop, thanks to a better strategy.

This analysis is great but it doesn't take into account the other 21 cars around the track. At which lap each driver passed who and how many laps any said driver was behind a slower car or not wanting to get into the aero turbulence. LH's lap times in the third stint may look more consitent to the 2nd stint because he dealt with moe traffic in the second stint and was basically running by himself in the 3rd stint.

The basic fact his that LH just didn't have the speed in Silverstone but managed to secure a solid 3rd place. Alonso and Kimmi where clearly the faster drivers all weekend long and rightfully deserved their 1-2 finish.

One can analyse these races to death, as the engineers do, but at the end of the day, it was evident that LH pace wasn't going to win him the race. If misguided strategy played some part then so be it. But I can live with 3rd place and a desire to come back strong in the next race :)

[ioan]

The basic fact his that LH just didn't have the speed in Silverstone but managed to secure a solid 3rd place.

The good result has more to do with Felipe's technical problems than with a good drive from Lewis.

[truefan72]

The good result has more to do with Felipe's technical problems than with a good drive from Lewis.

ioan,

wow Ferrari to the death. Come on now. The race is what it is. He finished 3rd and Massa 5th. I already said that Kimmi was faster, and Massa couldn't get around Kubica when it matters. Just leave it at that without trying to squeeze out a dying drop of legitemacy for your tifosi devotion.

[jas123f1]

Honestly: I don't think Alonso had any chance this time. They tried to make a very short second pitstop and a gap to Kimi but it doesn't work because Kimi was much faster. If they had used a strategy more like Kimis - then Alonso had never get a lead.. so the result had been the same. When Alonso come out from his second pitstop, he had a lead app. one second and that solely because his very short pitstop. Ferrari was faster than McLaren this time .. will see in Germany if it is the same on an other track too .. (hopefully ;)

[ioan]

ioan,

wow Ferrari to the death. Come on now. The race is what it is. He finished 3rd and Massa 5th. I already said that Kimmi was faster, and Massa couldn't get around Kubica when it matters. Just leave it at that without trying to squeeze out a dying drop of legitemacy for your tifosi devotion.

You mean that LH would have been 3rd if it wasn't for Felipe having those engine problems at the start? You don't have to be a Ferrari fan to see that Felipe would have been at least 2nd in the end. :rolleyes:

[andreag]

You don't have to be a Ferrari fan to see that Felipe would have been at least 2nd in the end. :rolleyes:
That's 99% true.

I'm not a Ferrari fan, and I see that Felipe would have been 3rd in the end (this sole number is the difference to Ioan's 100% true). ;)

[ioan]

That's 99% true.

I'm not a Ferrari fan, and I see that Felipe would have been 3rd in the end (this sole number is the difference to Ioan's 100% true). ;)

I see where you come from with that one and I'll let it be! ;)

[johnny shell]

FUNNY, planet-F1 didn't list our own andreag as a source for their article....
http://planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2491681,00.html

[Ian McC]

FUNNY, planet-F1 didn't list our own andreag as a source for their article....
http://planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2491681,00.html

:laugh:

This must be where they come to do their research ;)

[andreag]

FUNNY, planet-F1 didn't list our own andreag as a source for their article....
http://planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2491681,00.html
I don't really care about not being quoted, as long as they continue sending me the checks for the copyright. ;)

[truefan72]

That's 99% true.

I'm not a Ferrari fan, and I see that Felipe would have been 3rd in the end (this sole number is the difference to Ioan's 100% true). ;)

would have could have should have... that's just racing, Massa hasn't learned the abiltiy to get around a top car yet. He couldn't get past Kubica. So him getting around LH is jsut specualtive. In any case that's just racing.


You mean that LH would have been 3rd if it wasn't for Felipe having those engine problems at the start? You don't have to be a Ferrari fan to see that Felipe would have been at least 2nd in the end. :rolleyes:

Whatever gave you that idea? The race is driven on a real course on a real day with real situations. His car was not up to it and he is lucky that his problem occured before the race started rather than moments later. So he should be lucky he got 5th place at all. That's reality not wishful thinking. Just like it is reality that Alonso and Kimi were faster than LH. Instead of me making excuses or offering alternate realities if only LH had the right set up or tyre choices or fuel strategy. The race is what it is. Kimi 1, Alonso 2. LH 3 , Kubica 4, Massa 5. There is no amount of talk that changes those facts, as much as you wish it.

[ioan]

Whatever gave you that idea? The race is driven on a real course on a real day with real situations. His car was not up to it and he is lucky that his problem occured before the race started rather than moments later. So he should be lucky he got 5th place at all. That's reality not wishful thinking. Just like it is reality that Alonso and Kimi were faster than LH. Instead of me making excuses or offering alternate realities if only LH had the right set up or tyre choices or fuel strategy. The race is what it is. Kimi 1, Alonso 2. LH 3 , Kubica 4, Massa 5. There is no amount of talk that changes those facts, as much as you wish it.

Is this the typical LH fan behavior?
What's the use to discuss with someone if you can't think outside of your narrow box? The pleasure to call it wishful thinking maybe?! :rolleyes:

[Ian McC]

Is this the typical LH fan behavior?
What's the use to discuss with someone if you can't think outside of your narrow box? The pleasure to call it wishful thinking maybe?! :rolleyes:

He calls it how it happened, can't call that anything other than the facts.

[Flat.tyres]

He calls it how it happened, can't call that anything other than the facts.

facts take second place on this forum with mis-informed opinions carrying much more weight :laugh:

1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 were as they were. Cant change that.

saying Massa would have been second is speculation in the extreem as nobody knows what might have happened. he could have attempted a Alonso "do or die" punt up the inside and taken himself and his team mate off. He might have been long fuelled and be able to take Kimi during the stops. he might have slid off or taken Hamilton out or someone might have taken him out. he may have ignored a light and been disqualified ;)

too many variables to call apart from to say that there is a chance he might have improved on his position.

[ioan]

facts take second place on this forum with mis-informed opinions carrying much more weight :laugh:

1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 were as they were. Cant change that.

saying Massa would have been second is speculation in the extreem as nobody knows what might have happened. he could have attempted a Alonso "do or die" punt up the inside and taken himself and his team mate off. He might have been long fuelled and be able to take Kimi during the stops. he might have slid off or taken Hamilton out or someone might have taken him out. he may have ignored a light and been disqualified ;)

too many variables to call apart from to say that there is a chance he might have improved on his position.

Quoting Flat.tyres: "Are you interested in the discussion or in scoring points?"

For him it's obviously not the former case! :rolleyes:

[Flat.tyres]

Quoting Flat.tyres: "Are you interested in the discussion or in scoring points?"

For him it's obviously not the former case! :rolleyes:

what planet are you on?

I merely pointed out that you were wrong in saying he would definatly got 2nd and explained why I thought that.

stop sulking just because people challenge your view and back it up with a reasoned opinion. Instead, why not challenge what I said with a realistic arguement.

:rolleyes:

[janneppi]

You mean that LH would have been 3rd if it wasn't for Felipe having those engine problems at the start? You don't have to be a Ferrari fan to see that Felipe would have been at least 2nd in the end. :rolleyes:
I could agree with that, as Massa would have said it, Lewis was lucky his car didn't stall before the start. :)
Massa would propably have been close to Alonso after his second pitstop, ahead, or behind i'm not sure. I'll leave that to the people who care more. :)

[Garry Walker]

that's just racing, Massa hasn't learned the abiltiy to get around a top car yet. He couldn't get past Kubica. .Maybe you havent noticed it before, but it is pretty hard to get past cars with almost similar performance as yours. Turbulence being the Keyword here.
Without a mistake from Kubica it was pretty much impossible to get past him and Kubica drove in a very controlled way, leaving Massa with no chance.

[ioan]

what planet are you on?

Obviously other than planets Hamilton and McLaren, I think it's called planet Earth! :p :

[Flat.tyres]

sorry Gary but Pino is going to ban me if I write responses to that sort of lame rubbish and blatent baiting.

it seems that you can post whatever you want on here and ioan can just make up blatent lies and not retract them whereas I will just get banned so with all due respect, and please take this in the way it's intended, why not just poke it.

[Garry Walker]

sorry Gary but Pino is going to ban me if I write responses to that sort of lame rubbish and blatent baiting.

There is no baiting and there is no rubbish, I am pointing out the obvious and the contradiction. Why is it okay for you to speculate about something that absolutely cannot be proven, yet when Ioan does it with something much more clear and obvious, he gets asked " what planet he is on".



it seems that you can post whatever you want on here and ioan can just make up blatent lies and not retract them whereas I will just get banned so with all due respect, and please take this in the way it's intended, why not just poke it.
So when Ioan speculates, it is blatant lies, but when you speculate, everyone else should take it as a fact, as you want people to do with your speculation about McLaren drivers and Ferrari drivers? So much for discussion and objectivity. :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

Get back on topic or the thread will be closed permanently.

[F1MAN2007]

What I remember is that even Lewis said after the race that his car was slow and even Massa could have passed him if he didn't have engine problems.

It was clear Ferrari were fast at Silvestone and Lewis' car was slow than Alonso's car.

[Flat.tyres]

What I remember is that even Lewis said after the race that his car was slow and even Massa could have passed him if he didn't have engine problems.

It was clear Ferrari were fast at Silvestone and Lewis' car was slow than Alonso's car.

agreed. not the best race for Lewis and he really suffered with the set-up of his car.

if Massa hadn't of stalled, there is a very good chance that he would have finished 3rd or even 2nd but we cannot say that as a fact because it's an IF.

what we can say is that Lewis is now joint 3rd in the all time record book for consecutive podium finished and people are slating him :laugh:

Luv it :D

[Ian McC]

Maybe you havent noticed it before, but it is pretty hard to get past cars with almost similar performance as yours. Turbulence being the Keyword here.
Without a mistake from Kubica it was pretty much impossible to get past him and Kubica drove in a very controlled way, leaving Massa with no chance.

Indeed, the BMW is fast in a straight line as well.

[Mickey T]

wow.

nine pages for a bloke who, quite simply, got blown away.

this must be some sort of record.

it was clear fairly early that kimi was waiting and Alonso had pegged the gap and was waiting, too.

then, when he pitted, the other two guys just pulled the trigger and disappeared.

it was pretty simple.

[Ian McC]

Good performance so far by Lewis at the Europen GP, no doubt Alonso will be studying Hamiltons data to see where he can improve ;)

[F1MAN2007]

Good performance so far by Lewis at the Europen GP, no doubt Alonso will be studying Hamiltons data to see where he can improve ;)


And now after Q1 and Q2 where Alonso is still ahead of Hamiliton, it is time to Hamiliton to copy the data from Alonso for the Q3 as usual!!! :D

[ArrowsFA1]

And now after Q1 and Q2 where Alonso is still ahead of Hamiliton, it is time to Hamiliton to copy the data from Alonso for the Q3 as usual!!! :D
That's funny because previously Hamilton has been accused of gaining advantage from Alonso's data in Q1 & Q2 :crazy: :p :

[race aficionado]

We will now get to see how LH does coming from behind. As always, i'm counting on him making it exciting.

[Ian McC]

Indeed Race, will be a good challenge for him :)

[Valve Bounce]

Yeah!! with the two Toyotas ahead of him, he's got his job cut out for him.

[gloomyDAY]

Yeah!! with the two Toyotas ahead of him, he's got his job cut out for him.
Was that a joke? Because if it is... :D

I expect Hamilton to make a strong effort. Maybe a DNF or two and he's on the podium, but I'm sure he'll be in the points.

[Ranger]

but I'm sure he'll be in the points.

Yep... except if he collides with those damn monkeys. ;)

[F1MAN2007]

Yep... except if he collides with those damn monkeys. ;)


He knows the monkeys very well and he will try lap monkey by monkey untill he trails the big monkeys Heidfeld and Kubica ;)

[VkmSpouge]

Hamilton had a pretty interesting race weekend.
Big crash in qualifying, he was lucky not to be seriously hurt.
Then the race, he made a fabulous start, took 5 cars by the first corner before driving around the BMWs, he was so unlucky to get a puncture.
Then Hamilton aquaplaned off the circuit and was joined by about 1/3 of the field but he managed to keep his engine alive and was allowed to rejoin the race.
After that he got his lap back but then made a bad tactical decision to go to dry tyres on a track that clearly wasn't suited to it. Still he set some very fast laps and soon began to cut his way through the field. He probably shouldn't have lifted off so much to let Massa by. Of course Hamilton then stayed on dries for too long, finally robbing him of any chance of points.

All that said Lewis Hamilton never gave up in his hunt for a points finish.

[F1MAN2007]

He is still leading the championship and has 9 podiums in his 10 races started.