Ferrari/McLaren Espionage Story [merged]

[F1boat]

Speaking about hidden bodies I remember that in 1999 some Macca fans claimed that a Ferrari assassin has shot the tyre of Mika Hakkinen. Even as Hakkinen fan I thought that rather crazy.

[F1MAN2007]

Here's what Stepney had to declare about this affair, it's pretty long and complicated, and it looks very very messy:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60613

For me it does make a sense and I couldn't understand or imagine how stupid would be this Guy to do whatever Ferrari said that he did while he knew that he is scanned everywhere is going or whatever he is doing?!

But still wait and we will know the truth.

[Zico]

Speaking about hidden bodies I remember that in 1999 some Macca fans claimed that a Ferrari assassin has shot the tyre of Mika Hakkinen. Even as Hakkinen fan I thought that rather crazy.

But who fired the shot? and wasn't there some smoke seen a shot heard from the grassy knoll... or was it the grandstand? ;)

[Valve Bounce]

But who fired the shot? and wasn't there some smoke seen a shot heard from the grassy knoll... or was it the grandstand? ;)


It was Elvis!!

[Hondo]

Prediction: It will turn out that the documents in question were in fact removed from a German, former driver's house without the former drivers knowledge, by an alleged current driver, also German, also a brother. This brother then, in desperation, tried to parley the documents to various teams in exchange for a ride in 2008.

However, this nameless driver has had a change of heart after reading a new "self-help" book called "What To Do When The Phone Doesn't Ring" by J. Villeneuve and is now engaged in the study of music and will soon reveal himself as one of the top 3 drummers in the world.

[Big Ben]

It is very nice, is it not? Poor Macca are again innocent and clean and the evil Honda Japanese are the villains? Macca are gentlemen? They to steal from Ferrari? How so? They are the "good guys", with "equal" status of the drivers! Ferrari and Honda are the villains!
:(
It is sad. FIA needs a new mega star and here comes Lamilton. He should be helped...
:(

Your sarcasm is so subtle... I was talking like this when I was 5... Who said Honda are villains? they've decided on there own to make public their meeting with these two guys... It´s so obvious but you seem to be talking about something else. We all are aware that you hate McLaren like poison... but there´s no need to embarrass yourself like this!

[Helstar]

If he is selling pizza's we don't want any today. Thanks!
In that link the story is explained well. The Coughlan wife, Trudy, went in an internet point with all the documents and asked to digitalize them. The shop guy, being a total Ferrari fan, noticed the logo and the complexity of the material, so he asked "is your husband working for Ferrari ?" and Trudy replied "no, he used to though ...", so he got suspicious and informed Ferrari and British Police, leading to the investigation at Coughlan home and all of this.

the google link translation of the complete article
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tgcom.mediaset.it%2Fs port%2Farticoli%2Farticolo369651.shtml&langpair=it%7Cen&hl=it&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

[ArrowsFA1]

...or do they hope he will be discredited enough by this affair?
That seems to be the aim :dozey:

[ioan]

Jean Todt's take on the affair:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60655

[Hazell B]

Prediction: It will turn out that the documents in question were in fact removed from a German, former driver's house without the former drivers knowledge, by an alleged current driver, also German, also a brother. This brother then, in desperation, tried to parley the documents to various teams in exchange for a ride in 2008.

However, this nameless driver has had a change of heart after reading a new "self-help" book called "What To Do When The Phone Doesn't Ring" by J. Villeneuve and is now engaged in the study of music and will soon reveal himself as one of the top 3 drummers in the world.


:laugh:
That's so plausible until the last line. I think he'll claim rights to being the world's best whistle blower ;)

[Helstar]

source: http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/sport/articoli/articolo369784.shtml

Flavio Briatore uncovers his usual sarcasm and talk about Dennis: "It's so strange to see that now Dennis acts like Todt's friend. Actually he seems to have became everybody's friend ! Touch people in their shoulders, laughs, he is one of us now: I don't know what happened in these days (note: LOL !) but it's just fantastic !"

[Big Ben]

source: http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/sport/articoli/articolo369784.shtml

Flavio Briatore uncovers his usual sarcasm and talk about Dennis: "It's so strange to see that now Dennis acts like Todt's friend. Actually he seems to have became everybody's friend ! Touch people in their shoulders, laughs, he is one of us now: I don't know what happened in these days (note: LOL !) but it's just fantastic !"

Is FB one of them? I used to think he´s just a leech.

[Valve Bounce]

In that link the story is explained well. The Coughlan wife, Trudy, went in an internet point with all the documents and asked to digitalize them. The shop guy, being a total Ferrari fan, noticed the logo and the complexity of the material, so he asked "is your husband working for Ferrari ?" and Trudy replied "no, he used to though ...", so he got suspicious and informed Ferrari and British Police, leading to the investigation at Coughlan home and all of this.

the google link translation of the complete article
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tgcom.mediaset.it%2Fs port%2Farticoli%2Farticolo369651.shtml&langpair=it%7Cen&hl=it&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools


This is a very interesting report, and I'm sure a lot will be revealed during the court hearing on Tuesday.

[janneppi]

Jean Todt's take on the affair:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60655
That's propably one of the most emptiest intervue ever.
I'm sad about this and can't commen't any further, says Todt.
And they manage to stretch that into a full page affair. :)

[ioan]

That's propably one of the most emptiest intervue ever.
I'm sad about this and can't commen't any further, says Todt.
And they manage to stretch that into a full page affair. :)

Good point. But there were things to be understood from the questioning and answering way.

[Valve Bounce]

Good point. But there were things to be understood from the questioning and answering way.

Why Autosport even bothered to reproduce such an interview is unbelievable. I think Jean Todt was just too nice to tell the guy to "bugger off".

[wmcot]

I find Stepney's story a little hard to swallow! Coughlan ends up with all the docs on the F2007 and Stepney was framed??? Why wasn't Coughlan claiming he was framed, too??? Maybe Todt and Coughlan were conspiring to frame Stepney? That way a position opens at Ferrari and Coughlan can move in?

I don't know all the details, but I find the "framed" scenario about as believeable as the "fact" that nobody else at McLaren has seen the documents except Coughlan!! ;)

Even more suspect is the way that RD is acting so nice to everyone now!!!

[ioan]

What I have found funny was RD saying that he is 100% sure that no Ferrari innovation made it into their cars.
I mean how can he know that? He isn't the designer of the car after all!

[Flat.tyres]

Good point. But there were things to be understood from the questioning and answering way.

very good point. the "evidence" seems to suggest certain things which on the surface appear to confirm my Honda theory.

looking at Nigels response, he took great pains to confirm that he has not been passing documents but were documents passed and if so, was he aware of this?

if Nigel is guilty, then it may be by association.

what is more worrying is the suggestion of him being fitted up. I find this incredible but we have the following statement.

"Ferrari is terrified that what I have in my mind is valuable. I guess I know where the bodies are buried from the last ten years; and there were a lot of controversies in that time.
"But do you think (chief designer) Nicolas Tombazis came to Ferrari from McLaren without something in his mind? The new Ferrari front end aero came from McLaren, because it was in his head."

is this Nigel putting a shot across the bow of ferrari to not fit him up or a blackmail threat by Nigel for ferrari to allow this to slide in return for his future silence. In other words, is he cutting a deal?

I am convinced that the past decade at ferrari has some very interesting and damaging episodes that Nigel can throw up. if he was to spill the beans, it would discredit a lot of their achievements over the period.... but what would happen.

Most of the key figures of that era have moved off, the Red Baron has retired, the chief architech is on sabbatical etc. It is unlikely that the FIA would take any retrospective action and if Nigel goes down the tubes, the enshewing rumpus will look at the accusations of a bitter ex employee. I personally think that Bernie, Max and Ferrari will still want to avoid this eventuality.

if it is a fit up though, I dont think that the data trail will stand up on the evidence of the supposed actions to date.

the thing that really confuses me now is the accusation of someone unconnected with the sport, apparently working at a copy shop, blowing the whistle. IF this happened as reported, it really is the smoking gun connecting Mike with the plans and a very strong link between Mike and Nigel. everything relies on this one allergation in my opinion as this is the key that would convince me Nigel had knowledge that these plans were sent.

but, it's becomming more and more evident that McLaren were not involved in this heinous crime. Can the people calling for McLaren to be blown to smitherines and Ron burned at the stake, please assemble outside Woking to sweep up the ashes and apologise to the smouldering remains :p :

[Valve Bounce]

I can only surmise - I know nothink!! NOTHINK!!

[seppefan]

Very clever way to check no other team employs Nigel Stepney and typical underhand Ferrari tactics. I really hope Brawn does not buy this one as well. Lets hope an Inde like Williams says bollocks, we will hire him.

[F1MAN2007]

In real life, governments when they are no longer in good terms with people who have been involved in high secret services, the next step is to eliminate them slowly but surely.

So Nigel leaving the team, Brawn not happy with the team and Schumacher leaving to retire, so we should understand the Ferrari they can't afford to lose all those Keys people and stay silent.

Schumacher is a consultant and soon may become "Master Strategy"
Brawn may become as well team boss next year to replace J.Todt
So how to deal with Nigel? Just accuse him and bring him to court to demolish his name and so on.

[ioan]

In real life, governments when they are no longer in good terms with people who have been involved in high secret services, the next step is to eliminate them slowly but surely.

So Nigel leaving the team, Brawn not happy with the team and Schumacher leaving to retire, so we should understand the Ferrari they can't afford to lose all those Keys people and stay silent.

Schumacher is a consultant and soon may become "Master Strategy"
Brawn may become as well team boss next year to replace J.Todt
So how to deal with Nigel? Just accuse him and bring him to court to demolish his name and so on.

Why would Brawn come back if he wasn't happy with the team (as you stated)? Sorry but you made little sense in this post.

[Ranger]

And word is that Stepney has had to flee Italy as he was being stalked, fearing for his own safety.

[ioan]

And word is that Stepney has had to flee Italy as he was being stalked, fearing for his own safety.

That's what he said in his interview Saturday, who knows if he is really in danger.
Or do you think that Ferrari would try to harm him now when everything is public, if that was their aim they could have done it before starting elagl procedures against him?

He is just trying to picture himself as the victim in this scenario, and some actually believe him!

[Flat.tyres]

He is just trying to picture himself as the victim in this scenario, and some actually believe him!

and some are waiting to see what is the truth before jumping to conclusions.

A senior (just about former) member of the Ferrari team is saying he is being stalked and fears for his safety. A few weeks ago, you would have accused us of being Ferrari haters if we dared question his integrity?

neither of us know the validity to this story but if it turns out that he is innocent of these accusations, you have to admit it adds weight to what he is saying, doesnt it?

[ioan]

A few weeks ago, you would have accused us of being Ferrari haters if we dared question his integrity?

And believing that Ferrari want to harm him doesn't make you a Ferrari hater? :rolleyes:

A senior (just about former) member of the Ferrari team is saying he is being stalked and fears for his safety. A few weeks ago, you would have accused us of being Ferrari haters if we dared question his integrity?

If you believe that Ferrari would arrange to harm somebody who wants to leave them, can you explain why there are so many ex-employees of Ferrari working for other teams as we speak?

Unless you are a mentally deranged conspiracy theorist, the answer to that is an emphatic 'no'.

So, as for 'harming' Stepney, it's just not going to be a Ferrari policy.

But, the Tifosi.....that's a different matter.

[janneppi]

But, the Tifosi.....that's a different matter.
Go on, confess, you were the one following Stepney weren't you ;)

Go on, confess, you were the one following Stepney weren't you ;)

No, because the Judas (alleged) is still alive!

[Easy Drifter]

I doubt we will ever find out the details of what went on. With at least 2 judicial systems involved, one been rather slow to say the least, and the very real possibility of extradition being required it is going to take years.
As far as the photo copy story goes I would expect Italy has shops available with high speed copiers where you do the copying and then pay based on # of copies made. (ie Staples) Again how would Nigel get hundreds of pages of documents out of the factory if he was being watched that closely. Computer discs maybe but then you would burn your own copy and send or deliver that. Papers? Unlikely in this tech driven world.
Again I expect this to drag on for years.

[ioan]

We will know more tomorrow:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60679

[Valve Bounce]

I strongly favour the "Lotsa Weird Rumours" approach to keep this discussion alive; otherwise, the fact that it will drag on for years will make us all die of boredom just reading the same old tripe. :(

[N. Jones]

I doubt that... I think somebody is losing their reputation over this...

[Valve Bounce]

I doubt that... I think somebody is losing their reputation over this...

Hey!! I'm trying my best with the crazy rumours - I even saw Elvis involved. What more can I do :(

[wmcot]

I'm really looking forward to tomorrow (or is it next Tuesday?) so we can get some real insight into this matter. It's interesting that Coughlan and "another" person were listed on the complaint. Who is this "other" person? Hopefully we'll find out tomorrow.

Personally, I think this whole thing was created by Jeremy Clarkson!!!!

[ArrowsFA1]

I strongly favour the "Lotsa Weird Rumours" approach to keep this discussion alive; otherwise, the fact that it will drag on for years will make us all die of boredom just reading the same old tripe. :(
It really could be all as simple as Nick Fry has said:

"I think people love the conspiracy theories and whatever, but to me they were just two guys who wanted a job."
I only said could though :D

[ioan]

It really could be all as simple as Nick Fry has said:

I only said could though :D

Either Honda or McLaren will have some explanations to give to the FIA in the end.
Both Nick and Ron are behaving strangely lately.

[ArrowsFA1]

Either Honda or McLaren will have some explanations to give to the FIA in the end.
According to Max Mosley:

"There is no suggestion that Honda are in any way involved in this business." http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60681

[Flat.tyres]

And believing that Ferrari want to harm him doesn't make you a Ferrari hater? :rolleyes:

did I suggest they would?????????

If you cannot be bothered to read my posts then dont bother to respond either.

I have said that I find the accusation that Ferrari are in some way trying to fit Nigel up as incredible but that I will also wait until the full facts are out.

If anything, you are the one suggesting that Ferrari would do him in before it became public and starting legal proceedings.

all I said was that I find it incredible that Ferrari would be involved in something like this the same way as I would find it incredible that McLaren would. your the one saying your not sure that Nigel is in danger from Ferrari.

Are you some sort of Ferrari hater :p :

get the chip off your shoulder and actually read what people write otherwise you look stupid.


That's what he said in his interview Saturday, who knows if he is really in danger.
Or do you think that Ferrari would try to harm him now when everything is public, if that was their aim they could have done it before starting elagl procedures against him?

[ioan]

did I suggest they would?????????

If you cannot be bothered to read my posts then dont bother to respond either.

I have said that I find the accusation that Ferrari are in some way trying to fit Nigel up as incredible but that I will also wait until the full facts are out.

If anything, you are the one suggesting that Ferrari would do him in before it became public and starting legal proceedings.

all I said was that I find it incredible that Ferrari would be involved in something like this the same way as I would find it incredible that McLaren would. your the one saying your not sure that Nigel is in danger from Ferrari.

Are you some sort of Ferrari hater :p :

get the chip off your shoulder and actually read what people write otherwise you look stupid.

Don't twist it, you implied that Stepney was right to flee because of the danger. Or you suggest that you don't even understand what you write? At least that's what seems to be the case.

[ArrowsFA1]

The court hearing into the spy scandal surrounding Ferrari and McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan has been adjourned until tomorrow following a preliminary hearing in London's High Court today.

But despite reaching no firm conclusions this morning, the hearing did at least confirm some of the facts in the case.

Ferrari's action is being taken against Coughlan and his wife Trudy Coughlan, who is now alleged to have taken the 780-page Ferrari document at the centre of the controversy to a photocopying shop near Woking to be reproduced.

It was a staff member from the photocopying shop who tipped off Ferrari about the matter when they saw that the documents were confidential and belonged to the Maranello team.

The hearing also confirmed that McLaren managing director Jonathan Neale was aware that Coughlan had the documents.

However, there was no definitive answer on whether Neale was told about the situation before Ferrari's legal action against the Coughlan's began or after.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60690

[janneppi]

Don't twist it, you implied that Stepney was right to flee because of the danger. Or you suggest that you don't even understand what you write? At least that's what seems to be the case.
Neither Flat.tyres nor Stepney said anything about Ferrari being threatening, perhaps you should stop trying to read between the lines so much. ;)
As Tamburello said, there are enough loonies in Italy without the team being involved.

[Valve Bounce]

Neither Flat.tyres nor Stepney said anything about Ferrari being threatening, perhaps you should stop trying to read between the lines so much. ;)
As Tamburello said, there are enough loonies in Italy without the team being involved.


Now wait a minute - the Pope ain't gonna like that!!

[Flat.tyres]

Don't twist it, you implied that Stepney was right to flee because of the danger. Or you suggest that you don't even understand what you write? At least that's what seems to be the case.

that is a disgracefull outright LIE and I demand you substantiate it or admit your lying.

I have never made any statement pertaining to what you accuse me of. I have always said that the allergations seem incredible. If you dont understand the word, look it up FFS. Here for the hard of understanding are a few definitions.


so extraordinary as to seem impossible
not credible; hard to believe; unbelievable
farfetched, astonishing, preposterous
So implausible as to elicit disbelief: gave an incredible explanation of the cause of the accident.
incredible
1412, from L. incredibilis "that cannot be believed," from in- "not" + credibilis "worthy of belief" (see credit (http://www.motorsportforums.com/browse/credit)). Incredulity "disbelieving frame of mind" first attested 1430; incredulous "unbelieving" is from 1579.

source is http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incredible

so ioan, I would be appeased if you retract the statement and issue a apology. :(

[ioan]

that is a disgracefull outright LIE and I demand you substantiate it or admit your lying.

I have never made any statement pertaining to what you accuse me of. I have always said that the allergations seem incredible. If you dont understand the word, look it up FFS. Here for the hard of understanding are a few definitions.



source is http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incredible

so ioan, I would be appeased if you retract the statement and issue a apology. :(

I hope you are joking there, otherwise you've got some problem.

[N. Jones]

Hey!! I'm trying my best with the crazy rumours - I even saw Elvis involved. What more can I do :(

LOL!

I know. I am not trying to follow the story until somebody is or is not raked over the coals....

[Flat.tyres]

I hope you are joking there, otherwise you've got some problem.

no, im not joking and neither were you with your post. why not admit you made it up and were talking rubbish?

you cant go around lying on a forum and not get picked up on it.

[ioan]

no, im not joking and neither were you with your post. why not admit you made it up and were talking rubbish?

you cant go around lying on a forum and not get picked up on it.

So who wrote this???


A senior (just about former) member of the Ferrari team is saying he is being stalked and fears for his safety. A few weeks ago, you would have accused us of being Ferrari haters if we dared question his integrity?

neither of us know the validity to this story but if it turns out that he is innocent of these accusations, you have to admit it adds weight to what he is saying, doesnt it?

You could simply stick to your own words.

Now, if you don't mind I have nothing more to add to our discussion about this subject. See you in another thread.

[ioan]

BTW here's what happened to day in court:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60695

[janneppi]

So who wrote this???



You could simply stick to your own words.

Now, if you don't mind I have nothing more to add to our discussion about this subject. See you in another thread.
Here's your reply to the said quote by Flat.tyre, notice that it was you who brought up theFerrari/violence connection, not Stepney, not Flat.tyres


That's what he said in his interview Saturday, who knows if he is really in danger.
Or do you think that Ferrari would try to harm him now when everything is public, if that was their aim they could have done it before starting elagl procedures against him?

He is just trying to picture himself as the victim in this scenario, and some actually believe him!

Flat.tyres, i suggest you take ioan's last post a a sincere apology, that's as close as he can bend to make one. :p :

[airshifter]

This may be a forum record. Usually somewhere within 15 pages is something of fact related to the title thread itself. In these 15 pages is nothing other than speculation, though some through links of other sources.


For all we know the entire thing was done because of a drunken bet as a joke. :laugh:

[Ian McC]

Ferrari's action is being taken against Coughlan and his wife Trudy Coughlan, who is now alleged to have taken the 780-page Ferrari document at the centre of the controversy to a photocopying shop near Woking to be reproduced.

This is getting silly beyond belief, McLaren lay their hands on these secret documents which they would not want anyone to know they had so they send someones wife to go photocopy them in a store?

Christ on a bike, I can't see how they could take this seriously?

[Flat.tyres]

Here's your reply to the said quote by Flat.tyre, notice that it was you who brought up theFerrari/violence connection, not Stepney, not Flat.tyres



Flat.tyres, i suggest you take ioan's last post a a sincere apology, that's as close as he can bend to make one. :p :

i have learned that when ioan gracefully bows out of a conversation, it's tantamount to him conceeding defeat.

Some people say it shows bad form. others that some people are cheese eating, surrender monkeys.

I say that ioan is neither but...

back to the thread as this will never get resolved but thanks J for your observations :D

[Valve Bounce]

Nothing will be resolved or even clarified in the forseeable future - the whole thing will drag on under all sorts of court orders for confidentiality, claims of self incrimination and so on. I predict that we won't get to the bottom of this for another two years at least, maybe even three.

[Gannex]

This is getting silly beyond belief, McLaren lay their hands on these secret documents which they would not want anyone to know they had so they send someones wife to go photocopy them in a store?

Christ on a bike, I can't see how they could take this seriously?
You are making a big assumption here, Ian. Yes, Mrs. Coughlan was obviously sent to do the job of photocopying the precious Ferrari design drawings, but by whom? By McLaren you say. You say the team had to be involved, but I say it is much more likely to have been nothing to do with McLaren. I suggest that Mr. Coughlan personally sent his good wife to copy the documents Stepney had given him, that same Mr. Coughlan who tried earlier, along with Stepney, to get a job for both of them at Honda. The men were obviously in league with each other.

There is no suggestion that anyone else at either of their teams was in league with them. There is no evidence yet (after one day of the two-day hearing) of a broader conspiracy and if you think about the sophistication of Jean Todt and Ron Dennis, it's hard to imagine either of them clumsily getting involved in a theft of an opponent's proprietary information. I think the conspiracy was nipped in the bud, at the copier-shop level. You can't nip much earlier than that.

[ArrowsFA1]

I suggest that Mr. Coughlan personally sent his good wife to copy the documents Stepney had given him...
The only thing with that is that Stepney has denied sending any documents to Coughlan :crazy:


"I categorically deny that I copied them [the documents], or that I sent them to Mike Coughlan. I knew I was being watched all the time at the factory and that everything I did or said was being reported back and that people knew whenever I accessed files on the computer. I have no idea how anything came into Mike's possession. If he has some documents, they came from another source."
Link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60613)

Now, he may have been instructed to say that in the light of the legal case brought against him by Ferrari, but what if it's true? Who could be the other source and what could their motives be?

[wmcot]

This is getting stranger to believe all the time!!!

Now, Jonathan Neele knew that Coughlan had the documents but I bet he claims he never saw them! Does anyone believe that if you know someone has 780 pages of secrets from your main rival that you aren't going to be curious enough to take a quick peek at them? Then, the two of you are going to go on about your business and never mention them to those who work beside you day after day? Of course, you will send your wife down to the local copy shop to copy them (for who???) where she will happen to run into a copy boy who happens to be a Ferrari fan?

You can't write this stuff!!! :) (You also can't believe it!)

[ioan]

This is getting stranger to believe all the time!!!

Now, Jonathan Neele knew that Coughlan had the documents but I bet he claims he never saw them! Does anyone believe that if you know someone has 780 pages of secrets from your main rival that you aren't going to be curious enough to take a quick peek at them? Then, the two of you are going to go on about your business and never mention them to those who work beside you day after day? Of course, you will send your wife down to the local copy shop to copy them (for who???) where she will happen to run into a copy boy who happens to be a Ferrari fan?

You can't write this stuff!!! :) (You also can't believe it!)

This is developing nicely, at the end of the day Ron will be the only one from the McLaren staff who didn't knew about these documents! :D

[SGWilko]

This is getting stranger to believe all the time!!!

Now, Jonathan Neele knew that Coughlan had the documents but I bet he claims he never saw them! Does anyone believe that if you know someone has 780 pages of secrets from your main rival that you aren't going to be curious enough to take a quick peek at them? Then, the two of you are going to go on about your business and never mention them to those who work beside you day after day? Of course, you will send your wife down to the local copy shop to copy them (for who???) where she will happen to run into a copy boy who happens to be a Ferrari fan?

You can't write this stuff!!! :) (You also can't believe it!)

And of course, just nipped round to my local copier shop, and lo and behold, the spotty oik behind the counter produces a little black book, and on page 6 there it was, Jean Todt's address and phone numbers - amazing......

I also asked him for this weeks Lotto numbers, but he told me to p*ss off or he'd squeeze a zit over me!! :D

[ArrowsFA1]

Unfortunately, before waiting for more facts to emerge (because we have precious few to go on at the moment) it seems that this case is being judged on everything other than fact in certain quarters :dozey:

What do we know for sure?

1) Nigel Stepney has been sacked by Ferrari for unspecified misconduct.
2) Ferrari documents have been found in the possesion of McLaren's Mike Coughlan.
3) Stepney denies sending any documents to anyone.
4) A photocopy shop employee tipped off Ferrari when they were asked to copy Ferrari documents by Coughlan's wife.
5) McLaren's Jonathan Neale knew of the documents, but we don't know when he knew of their existence.
6) Stepney & Coughlan were in dicussion with Honda.

Any other facts?

[Valve Bounce]

Unfortunately, before waiting for more facts to emerge (because we have precious few to go on at the moment) it seems that this case is being judged on everything other than fact in certain quarters :dozey:

What do we know for sure?

1) Nigel Stepney has been sacked by Ferrari for unspecified misconduct.
2) Ferrari documents have been found in the possesion of McLaren's Mike Coughlan.
3) Stepney denies sending any documents to anyone.
4) A photocopy shop employee tipped off Ferrari when they were asked to copy Ferrari documents by Coughlan's wife.
5) McLaren's Jonathan Neale knew of the documents, but we don't know when he knew of their existence.
6) Stepney & Coughlan were in dicussion with Honda.

Any other facts?


Well yeah!! you forgot the Elvis connection.

[SGWilko]

Any other facts?

My big toe is hurting.....

[ArrowsFA1]

Ah, well. I tried :dozey:

[SGWilko]

Ah, well. I tried :dozey:

After this espionage/spying/photocopying saga is over, Ferrari's next ploy, will be to stand at the side of the track, and as the McLaren zooms by they will all shout;

"stop, your wheels are going round" in an attempt to derail and destabilise the opposition..... :D

[ioan]

Ah, well. I tried :dozey:

Tried what?! :rolleyes:

[SGWilko]

See below, Ferrari and the Coughlan's reach agreement.....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60706

[ioan]

See below, Ferrari and the Coughlan's reach agreement.....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60706

So Coughlan didn't resist to the pressure.
Let's see who's names will be on his list.

[janneppi]

Ross Brawn :p :

[Gannex]

Unfortunately, before waiting for more facts to emerge (because we have precious few to go on at the moment) it seems that this case is being judged on everything other than fact in certain quarters :dozey:

What do we know for sure?

1) Nigel Stepney has been sacked by Ferrari for unspecified misconduct.
2) Ferrari documents have been found in the possesion of McLaren's Mike Coughlan.
3) Stepney denies sending any documents to anyone.
4) A photocopy shop employee tipped off Ferrari when they were asked to copy Ferrari documents by Coughlan's wife.
5) McLaren's Jonathan Neale knew of the documents, but we don't know when he knew of their existence.
6) Stepney & Coughlan were in dicussion with Honda.

Any other facts?
7) Ferrari's criminal complaint to the Italian authorities specified Stepney's wrongdoing and was judged by the police and the Modena District Attorney's office to be serious enough and plausible enough to warrant searching Stepney's apartment.
8) The search of Stepney's apartment yielded evidence sufficient to convince the Italian authorities to persist in their criminal proceedings against Stepney.
9) Stepney claimed that when the story broke he was on holiday, which Ferrari well knew, because he had booked the holiday through the Ferrari travel office.
10) Stepney did not book his "holiday" through the Ferrari travel office, according to employees in that office.
11) McLaren say that only one hour elapsed between them learning that Coughlan had the documents and them informing Ferrari that Coughlan had the documents.
12) The documents were copied on or about the 2nd or 3rd of May 2007.

[ioan]

7) Ferrari's criminal complaint to the Italian authorities specified Stepney's wrongdoing and was judged by the police and the Modena District Attorney's office to be serious enough and plausible enough to warrant searching Stepney's apartment.
8) The search of Stepney's apartment yielded evidence sufficient to convince the Italian authorities to persist in their criminal proceedings against Stepney.
9) Stepney claimed that when the story broke he was on holiday, which Ferrari well knew, because he had booked the holiday through the Ferrari travel office.
10) Stepney did not book his "holiday" through the Ferrari travel office, according to employees in that office.
11) McLaren say that only one hour elapsed between them learning that Coughlan had the documents and them informing Ferrari that Coughlan had the documents.
12) The documents were copied on or about the 2nd or 3rd of May 2007.

Thanks Gannex, this looks better! ;)

[ioan]

BTW it seems that even if todays hearing was canceled, the legal action against Coughlan will continue.
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32103

[Garry Walker]

11) McLaren say that only one hour elapsed between them learning that Coughlan had the documents and them informing Ferrari that Coughlan had the documents.

When was that? I havent paid too much attention to this saga yet, but wasnt it Ferrari who started it off by making an urgent application to the High Court and after that Coughlans house was searched and the 780 pages of material found?

[Garry Walker]

BTW it seems that even if todays hearing was canceled, the legal action against Coughlan will continue.
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32103

No, Coughlan is pretty much free now. Ferraris main priority clearly is Stepney now.

[janneppi]

Looking at the link pitpass had about the copier shop, it said that Trudy Coughlan worked for Tyrell, didn't that become BAR an then Honda?
Does she work for Honda's F1 team?

[Big Ben]

This is getting silly beyond belief, McLaren lay their hands on these secret documents which they would not want anyone to know they had so they send someones wife to go photocopy them in a store?

Christ on a bike, I can't see how they could take this seriously?

There you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diK3k_59CGw

McLaren probably sold the photocopier...

The facts seem to indicate that Coughlan did all this on his own... and it wasn´t a task part of his job.
I'm sure McLaren stole those documents and sent Coughlan´s wife to a shop to photocopy them...

But there´s no point to this... It doesn´t matter how obvious it will get. Ferrari and their fans don´t care for that... We could see before that they don´t care how they win.

There are some here who think McLaren should be punished even if it's proven that Coughlan acted alone because somebody else might have sneaked a peek

I think the photocopier guy should be put in jail too... He saw the documents too. Maybe he´s working for a third team... or maybe he´s Elvis

[Gannex]

No, Coughlan is pretty much free now. Ferraris main priority clearly is Stepney now.

Unfortunately for Coughlan, he is far from free at this point. All that has happened is that Ferrari have agreed not to turn over Coughlan's affidavit to the Italian prosecutors. This does not preclude the Italians from bringing criminal charges against Coughlan at a later date, should they see fit to do so, and we know that Ferrari is continuing its civil action against Coughlan in the English courts.

[ioan]

Unfortunately for Coughlan, he is far from free at this point. All that has happened is that Ferrari have agreed not to turn over Coughlan's affidavit to the Italian prosecutors. This does not preclude the Italians from bringing criminal charges against Coughlan at a later date, should they see fit to do so, and we know that Ferrari is continuing its civil action against Coughlan in the English courts.

And this is fairly normal I would say, after all the guy was doing something wrong.

[Garry Walker]

Unfortunately for Coughlan, he is far from free at this point. All that has happened is that Ferrari have agreed not to turn over Coughlan's affidavit to the Italian prosecutors. This does not preclude the Italians from bringing criminal charges against Coughlan at a later date, should they see fit to do so, and we know that Ferrari is continuing its civil action against Coughlan in the English courts.

Yes, you are right. I should have read the news from autosport more carefully.

[ArrowsFA1]

Thanks for adding to the picture Gannex :up: Just one thing about a couple of your points:

9) Stepney claimed that when the story broke he was on holiday, which Ferrari well knew, because he had booked the holiday through the Ferrari travel office.
10) Stepney did not book his "holiday" through the Ferrari travel office, according to employees in that office.
Stepney may not have formally booked the holiday through the Ferrari travel office but according to his statement:

"I called Jean Todt to say I was going on holiday to the Philippines - I'd filled in the relevant form but it was on my desk and I hadn't handed it in - and wouldn't be coming back until this was all sorted out."
So Jean Todt knew where he was.

By implication McLaren are being accused of wrongdoing in this case but before there was even a suggestion that they had any kind of involvement there is the whole issue of the Stepney/Ferrari situation.

Stepney has made his views quite clear:

"I told Jean Todt I didn't want to travel any more. I wanted to sit back and consider the future. Ferrari took that badly...I began to feel like I was some sort of traitor, just because I no longer wanted to travel...whenever I discussed anything with people in the factory in the course of doing my job, it got fed back to senior management. People became scared to talk to me...I categorically deny that any technical information passed between Mike and I at any time...something is happening inside Ferrari...I was accused by Mario Almondo of taking some drawings. I had them in my possession legitimately because I needed them for work on the simulator, but it was reported to him by the drawing office that I had them. I got the papers and threw them on Almondo's desk. The next day they were back on mine!...Ferrari is terrified that what I have in my mind is valuable. I guess I know where the bodies are buried from the last ten years; and there were a lot of controversies in that time."

In any legal case wouldn't the lawyers be looking at the truth, or otherwise, of Stepney's statement and asking what motives anyone has for discrediting him?

It has all the makings of a first class thriller, and involving F1's principal rivals makes it a blockbuster :eek:

[Ian McC]

You are making a big assumption here, Ian. Yes, Mrs. Coughlan was obviously sent to do the job of photocopying the precious Ferrari design drawings, but by whom? By McLaren you say. You say the team had to be involved, but I say it is much more likely to have been nothing to do with McLaren. I suggest that Mr. Coughlan personally sent his good wife to copy the documents Stepney had given him, that same Mr. Coughlan who tried earlier, along with Stepney, to get a job for both of them at Honda. The men were obviously in league with each other.

Actually that was the point I was trying to make, if you have something this sensitive you don't send someones wife down to the local store to photocopy it!!!

[Ian McC]

2) Ferrari documents have been found in the possesion of McLaren's Mike Coughlan.

Has that actually been confirmed?

[Easy Drifter]

You know if you tried to peddle this as novel to a publisher or to a movie producer you would be out on your ear so fast your head would swim, followed by gales of laughter. :D

[wmcot]

Actually that was the point I was trying to make, if you have something this sensitive you don't send someones wife down to the local store to photocopy it!!!

And who were the copies for?????

[wmcot]

Has that actually been confirmed?

Apparently 780 times!

[ArrowsFA1]

Has that actually been confirmed?
I thought so, although Stepney has said:

"I have no idea how anything came into Mike's possession. I don't even know for sure that he has had documents. Do you know for sure? Categorically, he didn't get them from me. If he has some, then they came from another source."

[ArrowsFA1]

McLaren have been summoned to appear before an extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council later this month to answer charges relating to Formula One's ongoing spy controversy surrounding their chief designer Mike Coughlan.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60729

[Malbec]

Looking at the link pitpass had about the copier shop, it said that Trudy Coughlan worked for Tyrell, didn't that become BAR an then Honda?
Does she work for Honda's F1 team?

Almost everyone at Tyrrell was sacked IIRC when BAR was established, I think only the truckdriver was kept over. All Pollock wanted to keep over from the old team was the FIA entry.

[Malbec]

And who were the copies for?????

And why copy it now? After all if the stuff about wanting jobs at Honda are to be believed they were rebuffed in early June. Were they thinking of approaching another team?

[janneppi]

Almost everyone at Tyrrell was sacked IIRC when BAR was established, I think only the truckdriver was kept over. All Pollock wanted to keep over from the old team was the FIA entry.
That then leads to the question what was her position in Tyrell, and does she now work in a F1 related company?

[Valve Bounce]

Almost everyone at Tyrrell was sacked IIRC when BAR was established, I think only the truckdriver was kept over. All Pollock wanted to keep over from the old team was the FIA entry.

OK, then it must have beenthe truck driver. I heard rumours that the truck driver was seen wearing blue suede shoes.

[ioan]

And why copy it now? After all if the stuff about wanting jobs at Honda are to be believed they were rebuffed in early June. Were they thinking of approaching another team?

Ron told him he's free to go to Honda if he doesn't take the document with him! :D

[pino]

According to ital media, another McLaren employeer is involved in this, I know the name but I cannot post it...sorry :p :

[ioan]

According to ital media, another McLaren employeer is involved in this, I know the name but I cannot post it...sorry :p :

Is it an employee or an employer? :D

[pino]

Is it an employee or an employer? :D

He's a guy who works for McLaren :p :

[ioan]

He's a guy who works for McLaren :p :

Are you related with Jean Todt or what? You surely talk like him! :p :
At least we know it's a man.

[icsunonove]

Actually that was the point I was trying to make, if you have something this sensitive you don't send someones wife down to the local store to photocopy it!!!

I'm with you on this. I'd be amazed if Ferrari routinely distributed paper documents relating to the design of their car - so much design is done on computer. So if design documents were to be stolen it would be much easier to take them away on CD/DVD or some kind of flash memory device. If the person inolved had more than a passing knowledge of IT he/she would also take the precaution of encrypting the data they copied just in case someone were to find it in his/her possession.

Then again, if you were really given physical copies of secret documents the obvious thing to do would be to buy yourself a scanner/copier for a few quid at your local PC store (assuming you don't already have one) scan them in yourself and destroy the paper ones. Taking them to be photocopied at a local store makes no sense at all.

However, if you wanted to discredit someone by accusing them of theft of design data it is much better to have something tangible to wave at the press conference like a set of printed documents.

[Flat.tyres]

Are you related with Jean Todt or what? You surely talk like him! :p :
At least we know it's a man.

hey, I thought you weren't allowed to insult people here. ;)

[ioan]

Then again, if you were really given physical copies of secret documents the obvious thing to do would be to buy yourself a scanner/copier for a few quid at your local PC store (assuming you don't already have one) scan them in yourself and destroy the paper ones. Taking them to be photocopied at a local store makes no sense at all.

Do you know how much time it takes to do that yourself? I doubt he had all that time give he was a chief designer for an F1 team and was probably working day and night. He surely made a stupid mistake, but that happens to everyone in a lifetime.

[Flat.tyres]

He's a guy who works for McLaren :p :

obviously Neale is mentioned but I dont know of anyone else with the spectre over their shoulder.

if and it's a huge IF anyone else was privvy to this document, it would be Tim or Fry in my opinion or possibly even Paddy.

what we do know is that the FIA have now formally issued a charge for McLaren to answer. not Mike but specifically McLaren.

this is very worrying and just when it looked like McLaren were squeaky clean, this pops up. of course, it could be just to prove they are whiter than a tampax after a boil wash but it sounds very specific.

[ioan]

Well Autosport has this nice report about the latest development of the affair, and it seems that Ferrari asked the court to allow them to show Coughlan's affidavit to the FIA. If that is the case than maybe the names contained in that document were enough for the FIA to take action against McLaren as a team.

BTW it seems that these documents were in Mike's possession since March, not end of April. That's some interesting news!

Here's the link:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60737

[icsunonove]

Well Autosport has this nice report about the latest development of the affair, and it seems that Ferrari asked the court to allow them to show Coughlan's affidavit to the FIA. If that is the case than maybe the names contained in that document were enough for the FIA to take action against McLaren as a team.

BTW it seems that these documents were in Mike's possession since March, not end of April. That's some interesting news!

Here's the link:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60737

Hmm.. so it's gone up to 780 pages now. And what about this gem?

"And should it be proved that he had knowledge of the Ferrari F2007, including what the FIA has said is: "information that could be used to design, engineer, build, check, test, develop and/or run a 2007 Ferrari Formula One car', then that could have very important implications on the case."

Really?, design, engineer, build, check, test, develop and/or run a 2007 Ferrari. All with 780 pages of documentation?. Not likely, the Haynes manual for my VW Golf must have close to 300 pages and that doesn't include any software source code. Looks like a conspiracy to me.

[Gannex]

If I may put my lawyer's hat on for a moment here: the FIA is merely investigating whether McLaren has violated Article 151 (c) of the International Sporting Regulations, which holds illegal

"[a]ny fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally."

The FIA knows that McLaren obtained Ferrari's confidential document. They absolutely have to investigate whether this constituted an act prejudicial to the interests of competiton or to motor sport generally. If they failed to investigate, they would rightly be accused of protecting not the sport, but McLaren instead.

Far more significant from today's developments, as I read them, is the revelation that Ron Dennis "can categorically state that there are no developments, whatsoever, that have occurred in the months preceding 28th April or the months following 28th April" in the McLaren car which could possibly be traced to Ferrari's drawings. Why is this significant? Because there has been huge speculation, raised most recently at the High Court by Ferrari's lawyers, as to when McLaren first learned that Coughlan had the Ferrari drawings. They were copied, it is agreed, on or about 2nd or 3rd of May, 2007. McLaren have previously said that Neale learned of their possession by Coughlan in late April, but others have speculated as to how long McLaren knew about the Coughlan possession before admitting it? Now we know McLaren's position on that all-important question of "When did they know?".

Dennis will, of course, have discussed this point at length with all relevant employees and with McLaren's lawyers: it seems they have arrived at a position, which they will have to maintain throughout these proceedings, that McLaren (other than Coughlan) first knew that the Ferrari drawings had fallen into McLaren's hands on, neither before nor after, 28th April, 2007.

How does this square with the assertion that they told Ferrari within one hour that they had Ferrari's drawings? How does this square with the claim by some Ferrari people that the first time Ferrari knew that their drawings had been improperly dislcosed was when they were contacted by a copy-shop employee in early May?

[Malbec]

If I may put my lawyer's hat on for a moment here: the FIA is merely investigating whether McLaren has violated Article 151 (c) of the International Sporting Regulations, which holds illegal

"[a]ny fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally."

The FIA knows that McLaren obtained Ferrari's confidential document. They absolutely have to investigate whether this constituted an act prejudicial to the interests of competiton or to motor sport generally. If they failed to investigate, they would rightly be accused of protecting not the sport, but McLaren instead.

Far more significant from today's developments, as I read them, is the revelation that Ron Dennis "can categorically state that there are no developments, whatsoever, that have occurred in the months preceding 28th April or the months following 28th April" in the McLaren car which could possibly be traced to Ferrari's drawings. Why is this significant? Because there has been huge speculation, raised most recently at the High Court by Ferrari's lawyers, as to when McLaren first learned that Coughlan had the Ferrari drawings. They were copied, it is agreed, on or about 2nd or 3rd of May, 2007. McLaren have previously said that Neale learned of their possession by Coughlan in late April, but others have speculated as to how long McLaren knew about the Coughlan possession before admitting it? Now we know McLaren's position on that all-important question of "When did they know?".

Dennis will, of course, have discussed this point at length with all relevant employees and with McLaren's lawyers: it seems they have arrived at a position, which they will have to maintain throughout these proceedings, that McLaren (other than Coughlan) first knew that the Ferrari drawings had fallen into McLaren's hands on, neither before nor after, 28th April, 2007.

How does this square with the assertion that they told Ferrari within one hour that they had Ferrari's drawings? How does this square with the claim by some Ferrari people that the first time Ferrari knew that their drawings had been improperly dislcosed was when they were contacted by a copy-shop employee in early May?

But they didn't investigate Toyota over their purchasing of Ferrari data did they? Bit inconsistent if you ask me.

As for the copying, some rumours have it that the papers were A0 and therefore not the sort that could be copied on any old machine, but then that raises the question... what the hell was on them coz I've never seen an A0 sized operations manual and you'd have thought any serious designing would be kept on an HDD....

[trumperZ06]

;) McLaren-Gate... maybe more expensive than a 2 bit burglary...

780 pages @ 50 cent/page copying Ferrari's blueprints.

:dozey: Other than the two (or more) individuals directly involved... look for Mad Max & Bernie to organize a "Cover-Up" !!!

I don't think the FIA wants to disqualify McLaren !!! Think of the impact on both the constructors & drivers championships.

[Gannex]

But they didn't investigate Toyota over their purchasing of Ferrari data did they? Bit inconsistent if you ask me.
Didn't investigate? Tell that to Angelo Santini and Mauro Iacconi, the former Ferrari employees sent to prison for having betrayed Ferrari's secrets to Toyota. I don't know whether they're out yet, but I do know that they'd tell you the Toyota affair was very thoroughly investigated.

This affair is not much different. The important question is the same: how much were the receiving team to blame, or instrumental in the obtaining of their competitor's secrets? And did they make use of them? So far, McLaren are looking pretty good, I'd say. I think (and hope) that in a year or two McLaren will be in the position of Toyota, obviously innocent victims of rambunctious employees who were properly, quickly fired.

[Valve Bounce]

I think there are several issues involved here:
1. The possession/taking of documents, illegally obtained
2. The passing of such documents to a second party who then copied these documents
3. The use or non use of these documents by Ferrari's competitors for the design and modifcation of their cars.

In case 1., I do remember wherever I worked in any capacity as an engineer, I always had to sign an undertaking as a condition of employment that any designs, inventions etc that I may have made during such employ remains the property of the Employer and cannot be sold or given to a third party without hte prior consent of the Employer. Even Government organisations have such a policy. Now this is merely a legal condition, the breaking of which becomes a breaking of the law and may be pursued by the police.
2. above is simply an illegal act, which can be pursued by hte police.
3. Is something different, because if such information was used for hte design of components of a competitir's car, the FIA can act because it contravenes/violates and article of the FIA's international Sporting Regulations and the team which contravenes can be subject to FIA punishment/sanctions.

Having said all this, 3. is difficult to prove unless it is very blatant, and the FIA/Bernie/Max etc would be very reluctant to act if it in any way affects the popularity and/or competitiveness of the competition to the extent where it will affect viewer ratings on TV or on track attendances. It was for this very reason that SchM was not penalised or suspended after the Jerez incident because any bans the following year may have seriously affected the F1 competition and viewing numbers the following year after Jacques won his WDC.

Now I await, breathlessly, the next chapter of this sorry saga which I now name as Trudygate.

[wmcot]

I'm with you on this. I'd be amazed if Ferrari routinely distributed paper documents relating to the design of their car - so much design is done on computer. So if design documents were to be stolen it would be much easier to take them away on CD/DVD or some kind of flash memory device. If the person inolved had more than a passing knowledge of IT he/she would also take the precaution of encrypting the data they copied just in case someone were to find it in his/her possession.

Then again, if you were really given physical copies of secret documents the obvious thing to do would be to buy yourself a scanner/copier for a few quid at your local PC store (assuming you don't already have one) scan them in yourself and destroy the paper ones. Taking them to be photocopied at a local store makes no sense at all.

However, if you wanted to discredit someone by accusing them of theft of design data it is much better to have something tangible to wave at the press conference like a set of printed documents.

From what I've read (sorry, no link since it's all a blur to me where I've seen what) the original data was on two discs (CDROM, DVD-ROM, or whatever.) Either Coughlan printed the manual out and then sent his wife to have the paper document copied, or he sent her with the discs to have them printed.

It may be that he thought it would look less suspicious having an ordinary housewife doing some copying that to risk being recognized as a McLaren employee copying a Ferrari manual?

So counting the original discs, he either had 2 or 3 copies of the 780 pages. The big question that brings me to is why did he need to copy it and who were the extra copies for?

Hopefully we'll get more facts to answer some of the questions and end some of the speculation.

As far as the FIA inquiry of McLaren goes, I doubt Bernie would let the McLaren drivers be disqualified, but can you imagine the amount of press that would generate? Perhaps he sees this as a way to increase his wealth by increasing the worldwide recognition of F1?

[ArrowsFA1]

BTW it seems that these documents were in Mike's possession since March, not end of April. That's some interesting news!
It is, and I'm sure more will emerge as time goes on. However we still don't have an answer to the question - who sent the documents to Coughlan and why?

The whole thing is beginning to remind me of the shenanigans that went on between McLaren and Ferrari during the 1976 season. Whatever the outcome, what was shaping up to be a fantastic season will now be overshadowed by all of this.

[Flat.tyres]

If I may put my lawyer's hat on for a moment here: the FIA is merely investigating whether McLaren has violated Article 151 (c) of the International Sporting Regulations, which holds illegal

"[a]ny fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally."

If that were only the case.

the FIA have formally charged McLaren over this and as I understand it, Ron is hopping mad and ready to take the FIA head on. He's very dissapointed that the FIA have charged McLaren and feels that this is some sort of witch hunt.

all I can make out of this is that perhaps someone hasn't told Ron the truth as to their involvement in this fiasco and the afadavit reveals something that might incriminate McLaren without Rons knowledge.

this would be a disaster and I cant help feel that Ron has not been given the full facts. The FIA and Ferrari should give Ron the evidence they have if it looks like McLaren have a case to answer otherwise what grounds have the FIA in charging McLaren.

this is beginning to look like Ron is being sold up the river otherwise I cannot see any justification for these charges.

[ioan]

this would be a disaster and I cant help feel that Ron has not been given the full facts. The FIA and Ferrari should give Ron the evidence they have if it looks like McLaren have a case to answer otherwise what grounds have the FIA in charging McLaren.

Rest assured the FIA already told McLaren on what basis they are accused. Otherwise how would they be supposed to defend themselves?

[Flat.tyres]

Rest assured the FIA already told McLaren on what basis they are accused. Otherwise how would they be supposed to defend themselves?

link please.

At the moment, Ron is making some pretty catagoric statements about this that suggest he firmly believes McLaren have no case to answer and is bloody dissapointed that these charges have been levelled. I dont have a link for this but it will come out soon.

[ArrowsFA1]

At the moment, Ron is making some pretty catagoric statements about this that suggest he firmly believes McLaren have no case to answer and is bloody dissapointed that these charges have been levelled. I dont have a link for this but it will come out soon.


"McLaren is extremely disappointed to note that it has been asked by the FIA to answer a charge of being in possession of certain documents and confidential information belonging to Ferrari.

Whilst McLaren wishes to continue its full co-operation with any investigation into this matter, it does wish to make it very clear that the documents and confidential information were only in the possession of one currently suspended employee on an unauthorised basis and no element of it has been used in relation to McLaren's Formula One cars."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60741

So the charge against the team is "being in possession of certain documents and confidential information belonging to Ferrari".

[Flat.tyres]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60741

So the charge against the team is "being in possession of certain documents and confidential information belonging to Ferrari".

sorry Arrows, I didn't realise this had been officially commented on.

Thanks

[ArrowsFA1]

The Italian investigators looking into Nigel Stepney's activities at Ferrari are not expecting to reveal full details of what the mysterious white powder at the centre of the sabotage claims surrounding him until the start of next month.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60755

[ioan]

link please.

At the moment, Ron is making some pretty catagoric statements about this that suggest he firmly believes McLaren have no case to answer and is bloody dissapointed that these charges have been levelled. I dont have a link for this but it will come out soon.

You mean you believe that someone is brought in front of the court without him and his lawyers being informed what is it all about?

As for Ron, what were you expecting him to do? Publicly acknowledge that they did something wrong? The guy can't even accept when his cars are slower than others on the track.

[Hendersen]

Hmm.. so it's gone up to 780 pages now. And what about this gem?

"And should it be proved that he had knowledge of the Ferrari F2007, including what the FIA has said is: "information that could be used to design, engineer, build, check, test, develop and/or run a 2007 Ferrari Formula One car', then that could have very important implications on the case."

Really?, design, engineer, build, check, test, develop and/or run a 2007 Ferrari. All with 780 pages of documentation?. Not likely, the Haynes manual for my VW Golf must have close to 300 pages and that doesn't include any software source code. Looks like a conspiracy to me.


Uhh, I thought all the cars have the same software now.

[Flat.tyres]

You mean you believe that someone is brought in front of the court without him and his lawyers being informed what is it all about?

As for Ron, what were you expecting him to do? Publicly acknowledge that they did something wrong? The guy can't even accept when his cars are slower than others on the track.

from what Ive heard, there has not been full disclosure to Ron. I think this centres around this afadavit from Mike and what it contains. this is the smoking gun.

Ron is adamant that they have done nothing wrong and has basically put his word on this. the problem is that if he hasn't been told the truth, he's going to look like he's made a false statement.

as for Rons integrity, I don't think you will find anyone in the world of F1 that will cast aspersions on that. disgruntled fans from oposing teams but anyone who knows him will freely admit he is professional, driven, hard but firm and a man of integrity.

[Hendersen]

Can't wait till it all pans out and I get to plaster it all over the Hamilton wikipedia, like the british idiot editors like go on for paragraphs for schumacher doing the most silly things. (passing Damon "no talent" Hill during the parade lap, for instance).

[Flat.tyres]

Can't wait till it all pans out and I get to plaster it all over the Hamilton wikipedia, like the british idiot editors like go on for paragraphs for schumacher doing the most silly things. (passing Damon "no talent" Hill during the parade lap, for instance).

you're quite sad really aren't you?

this is something that is affecting the sport of F1 and could lead to long term damage within F1 but you just want to gloat and score little points.

If McLaren were involved in this, then the FIA needs to take firm action against them but as with a lot of the rumours surrounding Ferrari, lets just hope this is unfounded.

[Hendersen]

you're quite sad really aren't you?

this is something that is affecting the sport of F1 and could lead to long term damage within F1 but you just want to gloat and score little points.

If McLaren were involved in this, then the FIA needs to take firm action against them but as with a lot of the rumours surrounding Ferrari, lets just hope this is unfounded.

Oh, please. You don't see this as great karma after years of accusing Ferrari of everything under the sun?

[Ranger]

Can't wait till it all pans out and I get to plaster it all over the Hamilton wikipedia
Why bother? Will you be paid?? :p :

[ArrowsFA1]

...this is something that is affecting the sport of F1 and could lead to long term damage within F1...
:up: A point worth remembering while all of this rumbles on. Whatever the outcome this has already damaged this year's championships, largely because people are making assumptions based on speculation.

[Flat.tyres]

:up: A point worth remembering while all of this rumbles on. Whatever the outcome this has already damaged this year's championships, largely because people are making assumptions based on speculation.

I suppose we're all guilty of that to some extent.

the FACTS as reported lead us to assume there is a great deal going on along similar lines to what has been reported. I'm not sure of Nigels role in this as yet but Mike looks like he's buried up to the neck.

If I'm honest, I hoped that there was no substance to this but I see the FIA actually charging McLaren as a significant move forward and cant help but think that it's because of the information supplied by Mike.

Ron wont know what is in that affadavit because for legal reasons Mike would be excommunicated and this is so high profile that nobody would have had a little word in his shell-like. Mike, if he had any sense, would disclose everything and cover his own arse.

as they say in Star Wars, "I have a very bad feeling about this". Somehow, I see the walls closing in on McLaren and hope they haven't got their fingers caught in the cookie jar.

if they have, then I wont stop supporting them but will be bitterly dissapointed and expect the FIA to, quite rightly, throw the book at them.

[Hendersen]

Why bother? Will you be paid?? :p :

Why do you care? You going to write my biography?

[Flat.tyres]

wise words from an ald hand here. I agree with DC

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60760

[akv89]

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2495698,00.html

McLaren could face expulsion from this year's Championship if found guilty of espionage by the FIA.

With the Woking's fate hanging in the balance following Thursday's announcement that the FIA had charged them in the ongoing 'spy' scandal, reports of possible punishments facing the team do not make for comfortable reading if you are a McLaren supporter - or driver.

'McLaren may face expulsion from this year's Formula One World Championship, destroying Lewis Hamilton's title challenge, if they are found guilty of industrial espionage,' claims The Guardian.

However, the newspaper seriously doubts that such a 'draconian penalty' will be enforced. 'The likelihood of McLaren being found guilty of a major offence seems distant at this moment. Although the FIA has the capacity to inflict the most draconian penalty of all, such a step would be unusual in the extreme.'

It has, though, happened in the past.

In 1984, the long-defunct Tyrrell team was excluded from the World Championship over a technical infringement. Tyrrell, though, is the only outfit since F1 Championship started in 1950 to suffer that fate.

However, Article 153, which McLaren are charged with breaching, provides for punishment ranging from a reprimand to disqualification, according to the Independent. And so far 'the FIA have refused to rule out any of the penalties.'

McLaren, though, could face other huge loses should they be excluded from the Championship as sponsors Vodafone, Santander, and Johnnie Walker will not want their sponsorship logos "parked in garages while the Formula One circus goes on', notes The Times.

Either, whatever the outcome is, many in the British media are predicting the end of Lewis Hamilton's title charge as even if McLaren aren't found guilty, the next weeks are set to be a difficult time for the Woking team and its drivers

[N. Jones]

What insanity. This is dampening a very-good season in the post-Michael era... :(

[Ian McC]

So counting the original discs, he either had 2 or 3 copies of the 780 pages. The big question that brings me to is why did he need to copy it and who were the extra copies for?


So he prints it at home and then sends his wife down to the local shops to copy more. For a man that has risen to the position of chief designer of a major F1 team he doesn't strike me as someone who is very bright.

[Ian McC]

McLaren could face expulsion from this year's Championship if found guilty of espionage by the FIA.

Of course, that one makes good headlines in the press ;)

[FIA]

Will Lewis or Fernando loose there points?

[gloomyDAY]

Will Lewis or Fernando loose there points?
If that happens then the sport is dead in the water.

How many of you would watch the rest of the season?
I sure wouldn't, there is no point. The current championship is making me look forward to the next race.

All this controversy has done is belittle the achievements done by McLaren. Even if they win the WDC or WCC there will be a suspicion over their success.

[AJP]

So he prints it at home and then sends his wife down to the local shops to copy more. For a man that has risen to the position of chief designer of a major F1 team he doesn't strike me as someone who is very bright.Spot on....this does not make sense.
why would someone of his supposed intelligence ever go through with this...in his own home?

[Malbec]

Spot on....this does not make sense.
why would someone of his supposed intelligence ever go through with this...in his own home?

The rumours are that the pages were A0 size and therefore they couldn't just copy it on a normal copier.

[AJP]

The rumours are that the pages were A0 size and therefore they couldn't just copy it on a normal copier.
This is a catastrophic brain fade if any of this is true...
who in their right mind would try something like this and send the wife out with the shopping to get an extra copy while she is down at the shops...very fishy with devasting effects on the sport of F1...
I for one will not be watching the sport if McLaren are kicked out. I'm sick of watching a one horse race.

[Malbec]

Didn't investigate? Tell that to Angelo Santini and Mauro Iacconi, the former Ferrari employees sent to prison for having betrayed Ferrari's secrets to Toyota. I don't know whether they're out yet, but I do know that they'd tell you the Toyota affair was very thoroughly investigated.

This affair is not much different. The important question is the same: how much were the receiving team to blame, or instrumental in the obtaining of their competitor's secrets? And did they make use of them? So far, McLaren are looking pretty good, I'd say. I think (and hope) that in a year or two McLaren will be in the position of Toyota, obviously innocent victims of rambunctious employees who were properly, quickly fired.

Those two were investigated and imprisoned (IIRC) by the German and Italian judicial systems.

The FIA didn't lift a finger over the case, despite it being a clear and legally proven case of industrial espionage. Toyota never faced the prospect of penalties.

Oh and I'm not certain about Toyota being an innocent victim, the two people involved had approached numerous other teams for employment and had made clear that they could bring Ferrari data. Its difficult to believe Toyota was the only team they forgot to tell about bringing information from Ferrari. The technical chief, chief designer and senior manager at the time of the scandal were very very quickly replaced.... There was considerably more evidence in the Toyota affair that the information from Ferrari was actually used to influence the cars design than in the current case.

These articles about the whole affair are very good.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php?fes_art_id=26514
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php?fes_art_id=23010
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php?fes_art_id=10679
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php?fes_art_id=10670
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php?fes_art_id=10669

[icsunonove]

So he prints it at home and then sends his wife down to the local shops to copy more. For a man that has risen to the position of chief designer of a major F1 team he doesn't strike me as someone who is very bright.

Exactly!. In fact if this line of reasoning is correct he gets the data on disk and has capability to print an A0 size document at home - wow the cartridge re-fills for that printer must be like _buckets_. But even though he can apparently print them at home (for no good reason I can think of) he figures he needs more copies and instead of simply printing more he sends someone out to make photocopies. Brilliant, what does this guy do for a living?

Then we're told the the FIA says the 780 pages of documents contain enough information to build a 2007 Ferrari F1. Really?, I'd guess there are more than 780 different parts in the engine alone, so more than one part per page then?

I think Valve's suggestion that Elvis is involved has a reasonable chance of proving more credible.

[Valve Bounce]

I suppose we're all guilty of that to some extent.

.


NOT ME!! I have steadfastly held the line that Elvis may be the culprit, and in the end, I will be proven right. ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Will Lewis or Fernando loose there points?
I don't see how the McLaren drivers can be penalised for the alleged actions of a disgruntled Ferrari employee that set off this whole runaway train of events.

[philipbain]

I doubt that any real action against McLaren will occur, mostly because it would be very difficult to prove any transfer of knowledge being implemented into the car. The reports of McLaren being excluded from the championship are just your normal tabloid journalist sensationalism which are only based on the fact that the FIA have it in thier power to do such a thing and that the FIA have not explicitally stated that they won't.

My personal slant is that Stepney and Coughlin were wanting to bail to another team, probably Honda and were wanting to transfer as much "knowledge" as possible, I have no doubt that this has happened before but this is the first time that it's all come out into the open, by the sounds of it probably due to indiscretion of both of the individuals involved.

The big problem here is this.....

If a team has no responsibility for the actions of it's employees, then the teams can start to cheat in every aspect of design knowing they can just scapegoat some unfortunate mechanic, engineer or programmer and get away with it.

Because if the FIA let this current situation go un-addressed, this is what you'll here next year....

"We didn't know our ECU's had been tampered with to let us rev to 20,000....that must have been John"

and

"We didn't know the car was 50 kilos underweight, Dave's responsible for weighing it"

Unfortunately for Mclaren, they are probably going to be the ones that the FIA use as an example....but what other choice does the FIA have?

At the end of the day, the employer is responsible for the actions of it's employees....and that is a legal argument that even Ron is going to come up against.

[Valve Bounce]

The big problem here is this.....

If a team has no responsibility for the actions of it's employees, then the teams can start to cheat in every aspect of design knowing they can just scapegoat some unfortunate mechanic, engineer or programmer and get away with it.

Because if the FIA let this current situation go un-addressed, this is what you'll here next year....

"We didn't know our ECU's had been tampered with to let us rev to 20,000....that must have been John"

and

"We didn't know the car was 50 kilos underweight, Dave's responsible for weighing it"

Unfortunately for Mclaren, they are probably going to be the ones that the FIA use as an example....but what other choice does the FIA have?

At the end of the day, the employer is responsible for the actions of it's employees....and that is a legal argument that even Ron is going to come up against.

I think the main issue, when talking about the FIA taking action against Mclaren is that there must be evidence that some part of the pinched Ferrari design was used in this year's McLaren. If that is proven, then YES!! you are correct that the FIA must take some action against McLaren. However, I really doubt that any Ferrari design would have been incorporated into this year's McLaren; but then you never know.

We await the chapter of Trudygate with bated breath. :p :

[tinchote]

I think the main issue, when talking about the FIA taking action against Mclaren is that there must be evidence that some part of the pinched Ferrari design was used in this year's McLaren. If that is proven, then YES!! you are correct that the FIA must take some action against McLaren. However, I really doubt that any Ferrari design would have been incorporated into this year's McLaren; but then you never know.

We await the chapter of Trudygate with bated breath. :p :

That would amount to accept what a majority of people in these forums consider unacceptable: many here claim that Benetton got away of the software affair in 94 by claiming that "the cheating software was there but we didn't use it", and consider that wrong. This would be exactly the same: "we had the stolen blueprints, but we didn't use them". I'm interested to see how many people here think that Benetton was ok in 94; only those should claim that McLaren should not be punished.

[janneppi]

That would amount to accept what a majority of people in these forums consider unacceptable: many here claim that Benetton got away of the software affair in 94 by claiming that "the cheating software was there but we didn't use it", and consider that wrong. This would be exactly the same: "we had the stolen blueprints, but we didn't use them". I'm interested to see how many people here think that Benetton was ok in 94; only those should claim that McLaren should not be punished.
Mind you, it's not exactly the same thing.
If MacLaren had built "Ferrari" parts but didn't use them would be same level of seriousness.
:)

[ioan]

What strikes me most is that people here really believe that Coughlan did have access to the whole Ferrari data but he didn't use it for his work on the McLaren!
To put it clear, Stepney trying to use Ferrari plans to try to get a position at Honda it's pretty much logical. But Coughlan using the same Ferrari plans for the same reason doesn't make sense. I mean for sure that Honda, or any other team, would have valued more the McLaren plans from Coughlan as Stepney had the Ferrari ones at hand already. It simply doesn't make sense!
So why did Coughlan need the Ferrari plans?!

The FIA say that the plans that Coughlan had were enough to allow them to recreate the 2007 Ferrari. Let's suppose that McLaren didn't use those to copy ideas from it but rather to reproduce the Ferrari racer and use it in the wind tunnel together with their car to improve the McLaren's aerodynamics when running behind or in front of the Ferrari! This is a huge advantage gained in an illegal way too, without using Ferrari designs in their own cars.

It seems that there are many ways, other than directly copying the Ferrari designs, to use those stolen documents.

[ArrowsFA1]

To put it clear, Stepney trying to use Ferrari plans to try to get a position at Honda it's pretty much logical. But Coughlan using the same Ferrari plans for the same reason doesn't make sense.
Why? Stepney has already said that "three or four people at Ferrari indicated to me, after reading stories of my approach to Honda, that they would be interested in joining a technical group to go to another team...Mike and I agreed to pool our expertise and talked about what we could bring to a team."

Pooling expertise could include sharing information on how things were done in their respective (current) teams, and then discussing how that could be used to help another team (apparently Honda).

However, this does all assume that Stepney sent Coughlan the infamous document, and it is not yet confirmed that he did.

This is the latest report on the whole thing:


According to La Repubblica, Coughlan confirms in his affidavit that he had Ferrari's technical drawings and internal documentation in his possession.
Coughlan also allegedly reveals that he showed these documents to several people at McLaren - and not just to managing director Jonathan Neale, as had previously been known.
According to La Repubblica, Coughlan states that all McLaren employees responded in the same manner, by distancing themselves from these documents and advising him to destroy them.
Furthermore, Coughlan has reportedly not confirmed that his source for the documents was indeed ex-Ferrari engineer Nigel Stepney, and the newspaper only cites Coughlan as saying he received the documents via an express courier mail service.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60794

[GP-M3]

The FIA say that the plans that Coughlan had were enough to allow them to recreate the 2007 Ferrari. Let's suppose that McLaren didn't use those to copy ideas from it but rather to reproduce the Ferrari racer and use it in the wind tunnel together with their car to improve the McLaren's aerodynamics when running behind or in front of the Ferrari! This is a huge advantage gained in an illegal way too, without using Ferrari designs in their own cars.

It seems that there are many ways, other than directly copying the Ferrari designs, to use those stolen documents.

That's what I was thinking... create one, and see how you can mess up it's aero when it's following you.

[Gannex]

The FIA say that the plans that Coughlan had were enough to allow them to recreate the 2007 Ferrari.
That's not what the FIA said, ioan. What they said was that the drawings were such as could be used to design, test, run, etc. a Ferrari. They were just defining the drawings, that's all, explaining that they were technical design drawings, not artist's impressions, or photographs, or anything else. There is no suggestion at all that these drawings were sufficient, on their own, for any purpose at all, never mind building an entire F1 car.

[jens]

I haven't said a word in this thread yet, partly because all the story looks still quite unclear and it's hard to say where exactly the truth is (only the guys involved in this, know exactly that).

But whatever the case is and whatever the penalties will be, I'd say one thing - FIA, please don't touch drivers' points!!! Why should they be punished?!?!

[ioan]

But whatever the case is and whatever the penalties will be, I'd say one thing - FIA, please don't touch drivers' points!!! Why should they be punished?!?!

That would be pretty easy to answer. Just think about it from the other drivers perspective.

[ioan]

That's not what the FIA said, ioan. What they said was that the drawings were such as could be used to design, test, run, etc. a Ferrari. They were just defining the drawings, that's all, explaining that they were technical design drawings, not artist's impressions, or photographs, or anything else. There is no suggestion at all that these drawings were sufficient, on their own, for any purpose at all, never mind building an entire F1 car.

For aero testing you don't need the entire car.

[GP-M3]

Certainly with all that info, you can at least figure out your opponents vulnerabilities. So putting in something completely original, but to make the opponents car undrivable when following you.

Or to see the opponents testing strategy. So, in a given test they were .5 secs slower each day, but turns out they ran a bunch of fuel the entire test so as to sandbag. Next time they do that, you might be able to figure it out, based on the info contained in the docs.

Many more such examples could come to mind. The least of which is copying something directly from one car to the other. Thus RD's droning that the Mac contains no Ferrari items... duh... but that's not the most important place they could get an advantage.

[Valve Bounce]

That would amount to accept what a majority of people in these forums consider unacceptable: many here claim that Benetton got away of the software affair in 94 by claiming that "the cheating software was there but we didn't use it", and consider that wrong. This would be exactly the same: "we had the stolen blueprints, but we didn't use them". I'm interested to see how many people here think that Benetton was ok in 94; only those should claim that McLaren should not be punished.


Was the software already installed into the blackbox? In that case even if they didn't use it, it was in the car and therefore the case is different. Also, that the FIA turned a blind eye to Benneton in '94 may not mean they will turn a blindeye to this now. The fact is, the software wasn't stolen from another team. This design has been stolen from Ferrari and if it is in Coughlans possession, it may simply mean that Steptoe and son intended to use the plans at another team, hopefully Honda (as we have suspected).

In this manner, the two cases are quite different.

[Valve Bounce]

So why did Coughlan need the Ferrari plans?!



Well, why did he go with Stepney to meet with Honda's chief? If you can add 2 + 2, it often comes out nearly close enough to 3.98.

[Valve Bounce]

What strikes me most is that people here really believe that Coughlan did have access to the whole Ferrari data but he didn't use it for his work on the McLaren!
To put it clear, Stepney trying to use Ferrari plans to try to get a position at Honda it's pretty much logical. But Coughlan using the same Ferrari plans for the same reason doesn't make sense. I mean for sure that Honda, or any other team, would have valued more the McLaren plans from Coughlan as Stepney had the Ferrari ones at hand already. It simply doesn't make sense!
So why did Coughlan need the Ferrari plans?!

The FIA say that the plans that Coughlan had were enough to allow them to recreate the 2007 Ferrari. Let's suppose that McLaren didn't use those to copy ideas from it but rather to reproduce the Ferrari racer and use it in the wind tunnel together with their car to improve the McLaren's aerodynamics when running behind or in front of the Ferrari! This is a huge advantage gained in an illegal way too, without using Ferrari designs in their own cars.

It seems that there are many ways, other than directly copying the Ferrari designs, to use those stolen documents.


I think my Elvis theory is far more plausible than your, ioan. :rolleyes:

[wmcot]

I haven't said a word in this thread yet, partly because all the story looks still quite unclear and it's hard to say where exactly the truth is (only the guys involved in this, know exactly that).

But whatever the case is and whatever the penalties will be, I'd say one thing - FIA, please don't touch drivers' points!!! Why should they be punished?!?!

While the drivers are no doubt innocent (unless something dramatic turns up) they earned their points driving the car made by the TEAM. Unfortunately, if one team member cheats, the entire team cheats. Ron Dennis may rightly claim that his integrity has not been hurt, but, at the end of the day, he is ultimately responsible for everything that goes on within his TEAM. He's the captain of a torpedoed (allegedly) ship and must take the responsibility and go down with the ship along with all the crew aboard.

In team sports, it is difficult to just pick out you and you and you and punish a few members while saying that any benefit from their actions can still go rewarded for other team members. I know the FIA has done this in the past, but I'm not sure it was the right thing to do then, either.

I'm also concerned that now Coughlan has admitted to showing the documents to more people within McLaren even if they did "distance themselves" from the documents. How do you "distance yourself" from a key designer within your own team? Perhaps the only way this should have been handled is by McLaren immediately sacking and reporting Coughlan to the authorities and Ferrari when the first McLaren employee knew he had them. That could have saved face at McLaren, but it now appears that these documents were floating around somewhere at McLaren (even if they were in Coughlan's possession) for 2 to 3 months. I find it hard to believe that Coughlan just sat them on his shelf and nobody took any interest in them for 3 months despite knowing he had them.

In any other business, Coughlan would be fired and on trial and the CEO would have resigned. The business would also be facing huge punitive fines and/or lawsuits. Just because F1 is a sport does not mean it is not also big business.

[Gannex]

Certainly with all that info, you can at least figure out your opponents vulnerabilities. . . Or to see the opponents testing strategy. Many more such examples could come to mind. The least of which is copying something directly from one car to the other.
I agree with you, GP-M3, that there are any number of ways it could be competitively useful to McLaren to have a fresh copy of Ferrari's 2007 operation or design manuals sitting on their shelves at Woking. The documents would, if studied, surely yield an unfair advantage; that has to be assumed.

So I have to say that wmcot has, to my mind, identified the real issue: it all comes down to the timing. Did McLaren give themselves time to read and inwardly digest the documents before reporting them stolen? Just how long did McLaren top brass dither? If it's a short period, they're ok, and if it's not, they might still be alright, but their explanations for the delays will have to be good. I'm hoping, because this will bring the whole thing to a screeching halt if it's true, that Ron Dennis learned of the theft and reported it forthwith, quickly, without undue delay. From what I've heard about Ron Dennis, he will probably have done just that.

[Valve Bounce]

While the drivers are no doubt innocent (unless something dramatic turns up) they earned their points driving the car made by the TEAM. Unfortunately, if one team member cheats, the entire team cheats. Ron Dennis may rightly claim that his integrity has not been hurt, but, at the end of the day, he is ultimately responsible for everything that goes on within his TEAM. He's the captain of a torpedoed (allegedly) ship and must take the responsibility and go down with the ship along with all the crew aboard.

In team sports, it is difficult to just pick out you and you and you and punish a few members while saying that any benefit from their actions can still go rewarded for other team members. I know the FIA has done this in the past, but I'm not sure it was the right thing to do then, either.

I'm also concerned that now Coughlan has admitted to showing the documents to more people within McLaren even if they did "distance themselves" from the documents. How do you "distance yourself" from a key designer within your own team? Perhaps the only way this should have been handled is by McLaren immediately sacking and reporting Coughlan to the authorities and Ferrari when the first McLaren employee knew he had them. That could have saved face at McLaren, but it now appears that these documents were floating around somewhere at McLaren (even if they were in Coughlan's possession) for 2 to 3 months. I find it hard to believe that Coughlan just sat them on his shelf and nobody took any interest in them for 3 months despite knowing he had them.

In any other business, Coughlan would be fired and on trial and the CEO would have resigned. The business would also be facing huge punitive fines and/or lawsuits. Just because F1 is a sport does not mean it is not also big business.


There is one hole in your plot : if McLaren were to have used the plans, then sure as hell Trudy wouldn't have gone tyo have them copied at the local - they would have copied them at McLaren, wouldn't they?

We can if and surmise all we want, but all the suggestions/hypotheses so far are no more plausible than my Elvis theory.

[Valve Bounce]

I agree with you, GP-M3, that there are any number of ways it could be competitively useful to McLaren to have a fresh copy of Ferrari's 2007 operation or design manuals sitting on their shelves at Woking. The documents would, if studied, surely yield an unfair advantage; that has to be assumed.

So I have to say that wmcot has, to my mind, identified the real issue: it all comes down to the timing. Did McLaren give themselves time to read and inwardly digest the documents before reporting them stolen? Just how long did McLaren top brass dither? If it's a short period, they're ok, and if it's not, they might still be alright, but their explanations for the delays will have to be good. I'm hoping, because this will bring the whole thing to a screeching halt if it's true, that Ron Dennis learned of the theft and reported it forthwith, quickly, without undue delay. From what I've heard about Ron Dennis, he will probably have done just that.


Well, we know Flav sure as hell wouldn't have. :D

[Hondo]

One for Elvis:

Ferrari knows that Brawn, still upset about the way Michael was pushed into retirement, has met with Ferrari and made it clear he ain't coming back.

Ferrari wants/needs a new technical director and would like to have Coughlan.

Coughlan needs to be unemployed with no strings early enough to start working on the 2008 Ferrari.

Coughlan is "set up for a fall" with Ferrari documents.

Coughlan is fired by McLaren and immediately put under contract to Ferrari.

Ferrari withdrawls all legal complaints.

Nigel comes back home to Ferrari, and the job of his choice, secure in the knowledge of where another body is buried and pleased with having played his part to the hilt.

[Valve Bounce]

You've got me there buddy-boy!! and Elvis is the agent behind all this!!

[Hendersen]

It's hillarious to hear Martin "the Bigot" Brundle go on about how this should be settled on the race track instead of in the courts. LOL. I guess Mclaren should have thought about that before poisoning the well-- before battle, eh?

It's looking to me like Mclaren is in deep. Before the start of the season they were asking specific questions about rules clarifications, these questions were related to certain pointed at what might have been specific parts of the ferrari and its design.

Spells baaaaaad. I can't say Mclaren and the general British fan base does not deserve it, however. Karma is a bitch.

[Ian McC]

It's hillarious to hear Martin "the Bigot" Brundle go on about how this should be settled on the race track instead of in the courts. LOL. I guess Mclaren should have thought about that before poisoning the well-- before battle, eh?

It's looking to me like Mclaren is in deep. Before the start of the season they were asking specific questions about rules clarifications, these questions were related to certain pointed at what might have been specific parts of the ferrari and its design.

Spells baaaaaad. I can't say Mclaren and the general British fan base does not deserve it, however. Karma is a bitch.

:dozey:

I think you lost any credibility you had in the first sentence, and then it went downhill from there :rolleyes:

[Hendersen]

:dozey:

I think you lost any credibility you had in the first sentence, and then it went downhill from there :rolleyes:


Wah, wah. Try some Pamprin for the bloat.

[Ian McC]

Wah, wah. Try some Pamprin for the bloat.

:rolleyes:

Thanks for confirming what I already thought

[Hendersen]

:rolleyes:

Thanks for confirming what I already thought

Seems you think starting all your posts with emoticons makes you look more intelligent. You couldn't be more wrong, a trend that seems to haunt you in your post history. Why don't you jiust stick to the topic instead of trying to derail the thread because you don't like the issues at hand: Mclaren looking like a bunch of dirty cheats.

[Gannex]

One for Elvis:

Ferrari knows that Brawn, still upset about the way Michael was pushed into retirement, has met with Ferrari and made it clear he ain't coming back.
Fiero, usually I agree with you, but not on this one because Michael was not pushed into retirement, and Brawn knows it better than anyone; so he can't be upset about something that didn't happen, since he is English. Englishmen don't worry about things that didn't happen. We leave that to other genders and nationalities.

[ioan]

Why don't you jiust stick to the topic instead of trying to derail the thread because you don't like the issues at hand: Mclaren looking like a bunch of dirty cheats.

Have to agree with this.

[Valve Bounce]

This coming from a SchM fan :rolleyes:

[Ian McC]

Seems you think starting all your posts with emoticons makes you look more intelligent. You couldn't be more wrong, a trend that seems to haunt you in your post history. Why don't you jiust stick to the topic instead of trying to derail the thread because you don't like the issues at hand: Mclaren looking like a bunch of dirty cheats.

Well you seem to make a habit of insulting anyone that you can so your posts don't surprise me.

[555-04Q2]

This coming from a SchM fan :rolleyes:

Valve, you have to remember that MS and Ferrari are always seen as the "Cheaters" in F1. Its about time that people realise that EVERY TEAM cheats. Each has their own way of doing it or "bending the rules" as people love to put it.

Everyone cheats in F1, fact of life. Hell, Senna was one of the biggest cheaters of them all and he is a Saint as far as people are concerned.

This current affair opens up the dirty world of F1 that lies behind closed doors.

[janneppi]

Hell, Senna was one of the biggest cheaters of them all and he is a Saint as far as people are concerned.
That's the biggest load of crap ever, no-one thinks Senna was a saint.

[SGWilko]

That's the biggest load of crap ever, no-one thinks Senna was a saint.

Hell no, I was always lead to believe he was a Brazillian!! :D

[andreag]

Its about time that people realise that EVERY TEAM cheats.

Everyone cheats in F1.
Link, please :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

...the issues at hand: Mclaren looking like a bunch of dirty cheats.
I assume you have the evidence that McLaren, as a team, used the infamous document.

Then there's the question of who sent the document from Ferrari, and why?

Instead of calling McLaren "cheats" couldn't you equally say Ferrari have played a very clever game to deliberately implicate McLaren? Nigel Stepney's lawyer has said "The evidence in our possession shows there will be other people involved. Some heavy revelations" (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60845)).

Either theory has a similar level of credibility until we know more.

[padster]

Ah the background noise of f1 eh?

Its times like this when you realise that its hardly a sport. I hope this situation doesn't snowball, it would probably leave a sour taste in fans mouths.

Its business and politics. If people don't know what your doing, then your not doing anything wrong!

In this case, someone found out. I think the case needs to move back out of the public eye.

[555-04Q2]

That's the biggest load of crap ever,

That explains why I was on the toilet for so long :p :

[555-04Q2]

Link, please :rolleyes:

I suppose you think the world is a rosy and fair place then with no scheming, cheating, backstabbing etc etc :?:

Instead of calling McLaren "cheats" couldn't you equally say Ferrari have played a very clever game to deliberately implicate McLaren?

Trying to claim that Ferrari have stitched them up, based solely on Nigel Stepney's lawyers comments (well, he would say that, wouldn't he?), is not equal to Mclaren having to go to Paris next week to explain why documents relating to the F2007 were in the possession of their chief designer.

One is fact, the other speculation.......speculation most likely brought about by a case of self-denial and an unwillingness to accept that those who make a song and dance about appearing to be whiter than white might just be as grimey as the rest of us.

[555-04Q2]

Ah the background noise of f1 eh?

Its times like this when you realise that its hardly a sport. I hope this situation doesn't snowball, it would probably leave a sour taste in fans mouths.

Its business and politics. If people don't know what your doing, then your not doing anything wrong!

In this case, someone found out. I think the case needs to move back out of the public eye.

Indeed. There is a famous saying, "Nothing is illegal until you get caught."

[Firstgear]

[quote="ArrowsFA1"]Why? Stepney has already said that "three or four people at Ferrari indicated to me, after reading stories of my approach to Honda, that they would be interested in joining a technical group to go to another team...Mike and I agreed to pool our expertise and talked about what we could bring to a team."

Pooling expertise could include sharing information on how things were done in their respective (current) teams, and then discussing how that could be used to help another team (apparently Honda).

However, this does all assume that Stepney sent Coughlan the infamous document, and it is not yet confirmed that he did.
QUOTE]

Well, if it is true, I wonder if there might be 780 pages of McLaren documents somewhere in Stepneys home as well.

[andreag]

I suppose you think the world is a rosy and fair place then with no scheming, cheating, backstabbing etc etc :?:
So we're not in Kansas anymore?

Didn't you realize the emoticon at the end of my phrase asking for a link?

I realize of yours at the end of your phrase about being in the toilet for so long, and then I didn't took it literally.

[Ian McC]

Trying to claim that Ferrari have stitched them up, based solely on Nigel Stepney's lawyers comments (well, he would say that, wouldn't he?), is not equal to Mclaren having to go to Paris next week to explain why documents relating to the F2007 were in the possession of their chief designer.

Looks like the lawyer is trying a bit of muck spreading

[ioan]

I assume you have the evidence that McLaren, as a team, used the infamous document.

Then there's the question of who sent the document from Ferrari, and why?

Instead of calling McLaren "cheats" couldn't you equally say Ferrari have played a very clever game to deliberately implicate McLaren? Nigel Stepney's lawyer has said "The evidence in our possession shows there will be other people involved. Some heavy revelations" (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60845)).

Either theory has a similar level of credibility until we know more.

Telling Ferrari fans that they aren't able to accept the reality was nice and easy! Now take a look at yourselves! :p :

[Hendersen]

I assume you have the evidence that McLaren, as a team, used the infamous document.

Oh, there is plenty of evidence. Coughlan himself has said he received the documents and that he shared them with the Mclaren team.



Then there's the question of who sent the document from Ferrari, and why?

The question is non-sequitur in regards to the guilt or innocence of Mclaren.



Instead of calling McLaren "cheats" couldn't you equally say Ferrari have played a very clever game to deliberately implicate McLaren? Nigel Stepney's lawyer has said "The evidence in our possession shows there will be other people involved. Some heavy revelations" (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60845)).


Uhh, I said stick to the topic: that of Mclaren looking like cheats. I didn't say they were cheats. Btw, you know what lawyers do for a living, right? Hah. I'll give you a hint: honesty is not in the job description.

[Big Ben]

I'm sure Ferrari will be more than willing to be gentle with Coughlan if his story involves more McLaren in this novel..

Once again I hate to see how they try to deal with these guys in exchange for a better treatment than actually trying to find out the truth...

The only thing they want to do is get an advantage out of this... the truth? they can live without it!

[Malbec]

Oh, there is plenty of evidence. Coughlan himself has said he received the documents and that he shared them with the Mclaren team.

The rumours do not state WHEN he informed the team, if he only did so after the raids happened then there is clearly no problem.

It doesn't help that Ferrari is obviously leaking some information to the Italian press, after all they are the only people in Italy who possess the affidavit with Coughlan and the FIA being the others. One wonders what their objective is in releasing such small bits of information.

[Racehound]

Forgive my ignorance of these matters, but is there a criminal case to be heard in such circumstances? If so, what would it be? Is industrial espionage a criminal offence? I must say I've forgotten.
yes....industrial espionage is a criminal offence........the material that has been passed is protected by patents and copyright laws and belongs exclusively to Ferarri, as all employees are well aware when they sign their contracts to work for the team;......how Mike Coughlan has come into possession of copyrighted Ferarri data is just unbelievable as far as i can see!!!!!1.....He works for McLaren, so he must know the implications of any actions should he be found in possession of sensitive Ferarri data!!!!!!.......this is only going to end with McLaren being EXPELLED from this years championship!!!!!!!!!!!....there is no other course of action for the fia(sco) if it is now proven that other McLaren employees have seen the Ferarri data!!!!!!!!!..........it keeps getting better by the year!!!! :) ......ron dennis this year has really surprised me !!!!....he seems to have taken leave of his brains!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Racehound]

Looks like a McLaren team member has also been implicated and suspended !


A McLaren statement said: "McLaren became aware on the 3 July 2007 that a senior member of its technical organisation was the subject of a Ferrari investigation regarding the receipt of technical information.

"The team has learnt that this individual had personally received a package of technical information from a Ferrari employee at the end of April.

"While McLaren has no involvement in the matter and condemns such actions it will fully co-operate with any investigation. The individual has in the meanwhile been suspended by the company pending a full and proper investigation of the matter."



http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6264904.stm
and not just any old McLaren employee!!!!....only their chief designer no less!!!!!!.........this is only gonna end 1 way, and thats McLaren being expelled from this years championship;.....there is no other outcome if any other McLaren employees are involved or implicated!!!!!

[AJP]

and not just any old McLaren employee!!!!....only their chief designer no less!!!!!!.........this is only gonna end 1 way, and thats McLaren being expelled from this years championship;.....there is no other outcome if any other McLaren employees are involved or implicated!!!!!
thanks for that Mr. Positive.... ;)

[Racehound]

They should round up all the McLaren cars, and burn them under a cross by men wearing pointed head caps and hoods. That'll teach anyone who wants to engage in espionage in the future to beat the red cars.
with Lewboy on top of the pyre i spose!!!! :) ha ha ha ha ha

[Racehound]

thanks for that Mr. Positive.... ;)
ha ha ha ....its a bit difficult to be upbeat about this now!!!!!.....the poison pixie and madmax must be polishing the office table already and looking forward to giving ronnyboy something to really start crying about!!!!!.....this is gonna hurt ron, but bend over and take it like a man!!!!!

[Racehound]

Link, please :rolleyes:
no problem with cheating except getting caught!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hendersen]

Looks like Mclaren is going to tighten their own noose. They are saying no one else was told about the documents at Mclaren, even though Coughlen already has a sword statement saying that he did. They also have the problem about asking about rules clarifications for some things that seemed to be related to Ferrari design specs.

[leopard]

no problem with cheating except getting caught!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It isn't as simple as that, You will never be able to do anything to the caught person if he has power more than you, better sleeping

[Valve Bounce]

It isn't as simple as that, You will never be able to do anything to the caught person if he has power more than you, better sleeping

I know this applies to Indonesia, Burma, and sometimes even Thailand, but in Europe, this is highly unlikely, especially when somebody steals from Ferrari. Not many have greater power than Ferrari in F1.

Not that makes any difference in my mind. The truth will eventually come out when the beans are spilt.

[leopard]

I know this applies to Indonesia, Burma, and sometimes even Thailand
:D :D
Sometimes it doesn't apply as it looks, the favorite winner of Asian Cup was fallen off during elimination stage ;)



this is highly unlikely, especially when somebody steals from Ferrari. Not many have greater power than Ferrari in F1.

Didn't you ever think this is only coincidence? McLaren has ever scored the fastest car in F1 before, to be the fastest again (at least approaching the fastest) shouldn't need change dramatically. Without this case, they have what they need to re-gain the power.

[wmcot]

Either theory has a similar level of credibility until we know more.

Yeah, a 780 page document (and 2 copies or more to boot) vs. a lawyer's statement - I see those as equally credible...RIGHT!!!

[janneppi]

and not just any old McLaren employee!!!!....only their chief designer no less!!!!!!.........
Well, one of five chief engineers actually...and the one not in charge of anything ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Yeah, a 780 page document (and 2 copies or more to boot) vs. a lawyer's statement - I see those as equally credible...RIGHT!!!
My point is that none of us know the full facts, and until we do we can all put forward credible or fanciful theories.

McLaren have repeatedly said that: "...no Ferrari materials or data are or have ever been in the possession of any McLaren employee other than the individual sued by Ferrari." Yet there are some who ignore those statements while accepting others that implicate the team.

Trying to claim that Ferrari have stitched them up, based solely on Nigel Stepney's lawyers comments (well, he would say that, wouldn't he?), is not equal to Mclaren having to go to Paris next week to explain why documents relating to the F2007 were in the possession of their chief designer.

One is fact, the other speculation.......speculation most likely brought about by a case of self-denial and an unwillingness to accept that those who make a song and dance about appearing to be whiter than white might just be as grimey as the rest of us.
I said earlier that Stepney's comments may reflect the situation he's now in. Then again, they may equally reflect the truth of this matter. Someone sent Ferrari documents to a McLaren employee. Who that was, and what was done with those documents remains to be established.

Most of what we post here is speculation, so it's not a case of being unwilling to accept anything because very little has been established as fact. That doesn't prevent anyone from prejudging the situation, in fact it positively encourages conspiracy theories.

Telling Ferrari fans that they aren't able to accept the reality was nice and easy! Now take a look at yourselves! :p :
Judge the case on what we know, not what some want to see.

[SGWilko]

Looks like Mclaren is going to tighten their own noose. They are saying no one else was told about the documents at Mclaren, even though Coughlen already has a sword statement saying that he did. They also have the problem about asking about rules clarifications for some things that seemed to be related to Ferrari design specs.

Really? I though McLaren went to Charlie to ask if they can run a system on their car that would pass the FIA load test, but could still give an aero benefit at higher speed.

At no point did McLaren say they were unhappy with Ferrari's solution.

There is a different way to reach the same objective........

[Flat.tyres]

it's a great conspiracy theory, isnt it?

Nigel thinks of defecting and Ferrari want to discredit him because of what he knows and the bodies he's helped bury.

soooooo, they sign up a "supposed" mate of his, Mike, to stitch him up. Mike and Nigel make some moves to talk with Honda and Mike sends Nigel plans for the McLaren but Nigel refuses to send the Ferrari plans because he's worried about getting caught. So, Ferrari gets the complete plans to Mike who tries to implicate others in McLaren to no effect.

Ferrari think they have enough now so pull the plug when they know Nigel is away and start the media circus. Mike provides an afadavit implicating Nigel and McLaren and McLarens title chances are derailed. after a couple of years working in a periferal Ferrari role at Red Bull, Mike comes in as Tech Director of Ferrari.

result is that McLaren lose the championships, sponsors and reputation. Ron is forced to resign and Ferrari have all of McLarens pland for next years car with no suspicion whatsoever.

game, set and match.

OK, its pretty far fetched but if it was obvious, then others would have tried it. an Agent Provocater is nothing new.

I will stress that this is just a bit of fun but I only submitted it to illustrate that there are always many options and possibilities with these cases and its very rarely black and white.

Result,

[Valve Bounce]

We seem to be going round in circles. Blessed are they who run around in circles, for they shall become Big Wheels.

[Valve Bounce]

it's a great conspiracy theory, isnt it?

Nigel thinks of defecting and Ferrari want to discredit him because of what he knows and the bodies he's helped bury.

soooooo, they sign up a "supposed" mate of his, Mike, to stitch him up. Mike and Nigel make some moves to talk with Honda and Mike sends Nigel plans for the McLaren but Nigel refuses to send the Ferrari plans because he's worried about getting caught. So, Ferrari gets the complete plans to Mike who tries to implicate others in McLaren to no effect.

Ferrari think they have enough now so pull the plug when they know Nigel is away and start the media circus. Mike provides an afadavit implicating Nigel and McLaren and McLarens title chances are derailed. after a couple of years working in a periferal Ferrari role at Red Bull, Mike comes in as Tech Director of Ferrari.

result is that McLaren lose the championships, sponsors and reputation. Ron is forced to resign and Ferrari have all of McLarens pland for next years car with no suspicion whatsoever.

game, set and match.

OK, its pretty far fetched but if it was obvious, then others would have tried it. an Agent Provocater is nothing new.

I will stress that this is just a bit of fun but I only submitted it to illustrate that there are always many options and possibilities with these cases and its very rarely black and white.

Result,


You forgot the very important part that Elvis played in all this.

[Flat.tyres]

You forgot the very important part that Elvis played in all this.

elvis was the mastermind that came up with the plan. ;)

[Flat.tyres]

http://motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=261554&FS=F1

Pretty catagoric to the people writing off McLaren as a bunch of cheats. It looks like they will defend their reputation and their reputation stands on this statement.



Woking, United Kingdom, 16th July 2007: McLaren is concerned that erroneous speculation has arisen from inaccurate and misleading reference to the contents of confidential legal papers filed at court in response to Ferrari's UK action to recover its intellectual property. This is unfortunate and is prejudicial to a fair interpretation of these matters.
McLaren can confirm from its own investigation that no Ferrari materials or data are or have ever been in the possession of any McLaren employee other than the individual sued by Ferrari. The fact that he held at his home unsolicited materials from Ferrari was not known to any other member of the team prior to the 3rd July 2007.
Furthermore, McLaren has categorically established that no Ferrari information has at any stage been used to develop its car.
McLaren looks forward to having the opportunity to present the complete and accurate picture of events in the appropriate forum, that is before the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on 26th July 2007.
-credit: mclaren

if this is accurate, then all the doomsayers had better get some throut lozengers in because they are going to choke on this and it'll really stick in their craw :laugh:

[Valve Bounce]

http://motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=261554&FS=F1

Pretty catagoric to the people writing off McLaren as a bunch of cheats. It looks like they will defend their reputation and their reputation stands on this statement.



if this is accurate, then all the doomsayers had better get some throut lozengers in because they are going to choke on this and it'll really stick in their craw :laugh:


The doomsayers in this forum will suddenly develop rapid loss of memory, and forget what they have posted here, mark my words.

[Racehound]

There is one hole in your plot : if McLaren were to have used the plans, then sure as hell Trudy wouldn't have gone tyo have them copied at the local - they would have copied them at McLaren, wouldn't they?

We can if and surmise all we want, but all the suggestions/hypotheses so far are no more plausible than my Elvis theory.
yes!!!!!!!!....what the hell was SHE doing trying to copy these plans/data????......and apparently in a photocopying high street shop????!!!!!! it says these documents/data are stored on 2 computer discs!!!1......then what was she trying to photocopy in a public place rather than in private on a pc???????, away from any prying eyes of some nobody working for 3 quid an hour at the local printers!!!....coughlan must have asked her to do him a favour while she was out getting the cat food and paying the gas bill!!!!!!!......what a bunch of idiots gettin caught with such dangerous information!!!!!......if McLaren do get expelled from this years championship, i wonder if they will the sue coughlan for loss of earnings/sponsorship et al.....i hear the faint sound of slopping out and keys rattling along the landings again!!!!! :( ..........now , where has Elvis gone to?????

[555-04Q2]

So we're not in Kansas anymore?

Didn't you realize the emoticon at the end of my phrase asking for a link?

I realize of yours at the end of your phrase about being in the toilet for so long, and then I didn't took it literally.

Woah andreag, just poking fun at you. Dont take things so seriously ;) And yes, I understand your post.

As for a link, there are many to be found. Think Senna vs Prost, Benneton in the 90's, Schumacher, Williams and Toyota with their brakes etc etc are just a few involved with "cheating". Everyone does it ;)

[Racehound]

Well, one of five chief engineers actually...and the one not in charge of anything ;)
EXCEPT A COMPLETE DOSSIER ON HOW TO MANUFACTURE AND TEST A 2007 F1 FERARRI MOTOR CAR!!!!!!.......if this all goes wrong then it looks like he might have been in charge of McLarens WHOLE season!!!!!!!!

[555-04Q2]

http://motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=261554&FS=F1

Pretty catagoric to the people writing off McLaren as a bunch of cheats. It looks like they will defend their reputation and their reputation stands on this statement.



if this is accurate, then all the doomsayers had better get some throut lozengers in because they are going to choke on this and it'll really stick in their craw :laugh:

I'm not one of the people throwing accusations at Mclaren , yet, but if one of their employees under contract to work for them took illegal and stolen documents into their factory, they are also responsible for the actions of their employee, arent they. Where's a lawyer on this forum to answer that one :?:

[Racehound]

The big problem here is this.....

If a team has no responsibility for the actions of it's employees, then the teams can start to cheat in every aspect of design knowing they can just scapegoat some unfortunate mechanic, engineer or programmer and get away with it.

Because if the FIA let this current situation go un-addressed, this is what you'll here next year....

"We didn't know our ECU's had been tampered with to let us rev to 20,000....that must have been John"

and

"We didn't know the car was 50 kilos underweight, Dave's responsible for weighing it"

Unfortunately for Mclaren, they are probably going to be the ones that the FIA use as an example....but what other choice does the FIA have?

At the end of the day, the employer is responsible for the actions of it's employees....and that is a legal argument that even Ron is going to come up against.
tell that to williams.....who still proclaims his and his teams "innocence"........!!!!!!! :(

[Flat.tyres]

I'm not one of the people throwing accusations at Mclaren , yet, but if one of their employees under contract to work for them took illegal and stolen documents into their factory, they are also responsible for the actions of their employee, arent they. Where's a lawyer on this forum to answer that one :?:

McLaren state that nobody at McLaren was aware of these documents and if Mike and "others" were planning a moonlit flit to Honda, it could well be the case that McLaren are in the same boat as Ferrari and all their plans are floating about somewhere?

[555-04Q2]

McLaren state that nobody at McLaren was aware of these documents and if Mike and "others" were planning a moonlit flit to Honda, it could well be the case that McLaren are in the same boat as Ferrari and all their plans are floating about somewhere?

Could be :up: But they are still employees of corporations and no-one knows who else has got/seen the documents. Its only natural that people like Ron Dennis will deny involvement in this saga, but remember that murderers also deny thier actions until proven in a court of law. Personally I think Ron and Mclaren are innocent, however, they still need to answer for their employees actions. This whole situation is a bad reflection on the type of people that Mclaren and Ferrari employ and another pothole in the road for F1's image :(

[janneppi]

EXCEPT A COMPLETE DOSSIER ON HOW TO MANUFACTURE AND TEST A 2007 F1 FERARRI MOTOR CAR!!!!!!.......if this all goes wrong then it looks like he might have been in charge of McLarens WHOLE season!!!!!!!!
Two guys a in charge of their own cars, one apparently Ferrari's, what do the other two work on, Renaults and BMW's? ;)
If that's the case, shouldnt teams outsource all of their work to McLaren. :p :

[ioan]

Well, one of five chief engineers actually...and the one not in charge of anything ;)

He is suspended so it's obvious he is in charge of nothing! :rolleyes:

[Flat.tyres]

Could be :up: But they are still employees of corporations and no-one knows who else has got/seen the documents. Its only natural that people like Ron Dennis will deny involvement in this saga, but remember that murderers also deny thier actions until proven in a court of law. Personally I think Ron and Mclaren are innocent, however, they still need to answer for their employees actions. This whole situation is a bad reflection on the type of people that Mclaren and Ferrari employ and another pothole in the road for F1's image :(

I dont think you can blame the companies if an employee commits a crime completely unsolicited by the company. BUT, lets say they are for the sake of arguement and look at the allergations

what difference is there between theft and receiving stolen goods.

A Ferrari employee was guilty of theft so his employers should be punished even though they are the victims of this crime? I dont think so, do you?

A McLaren employee receives stolen plans without the knowledge of his employers and as soon as they are made aware of this, they take appropiate action, suspend the employee pending investigation and co-operate fully with that investigation.

just what are they guilty of again and lets not forget that the probable intention was not to benefit McLaren but to take this intellectual property to a competitor.

as for these two alledged criminals, I am sure that they never disclosed that they would defraud their employees. in fact, Im sure that their respective employers had clauses in their contract making it clear that no unauthorised matter should be sold, lent, copied or used in an matter as to prove predicidual to the employer.

lets not forget that these two employees are very respected and leading figures at the pinnacle of motor sport of previously unimpeachable character.

[janneppi]

He is suspended so it's obvious he is in charge of nothing! :rolleyes:
You mean you actually believe Dennis has suspended him, you're getting soft old man. :p :

[Flat.tyres]

You mean you actually believe Dennis has suspended him, you're getting soft old man. :p :

:laugh: very good :laugh:

[Robinho]

i refute the allegations, and i refute the alligator ;)

[ioan]

You mean you actually believe Dennis has suspended him, you're getting soft old man. :p :

At least I'm not talking bull$hit. :rolleyes:

[Flat.tyres]

At least I'm not talking bull$hit. :rolleyes:

who is? surely not an insult or slanderous accusation there ioan :laugh:

[ioan]

who is? surely not an insult or slanderous accusation there ioan :laugh:

You can't stop yourself from mixing into others conversation?!

[janneppi]

At least I'm not talking bull$hit. :rolleyes:
I do hope you're not referring to me?
Or has lighthearted discussion suddenly become forbidden?


You can't stop yourself from mixing into others conversation?!
Take a look at post your post #464, now are you a pot or a kettle? :p :

[ioan]

I do hope you're not referring to me?
Or has lighthearted discussion suddenly become forbidden?

My heart is anything but light these days.

[wmcot]

A McLaren employee receives stolen plans without the knowledge of his employers and as soon as they are made aware of this, they take appropiate action, suspend the employee pending investigation and co-operate fully with that investigation.

Why did it take them from March/April until July to take "appropriate" action????? That's my question. Coughlan admits showing the documents to several McLaren employees. Even if they didn't want anything to do with this, why did it take several months to suspend him and "cooperate fully" when they should have blown the whistle on him immediately if they wished to maintain their "integrity."

It is the delay in action that casts serious doubts on McLaren's statements of innocence and integrity. :(

[Valve Bounce]

Why did it take them from March/April until July to take "appropriate" action????? That's my question. Coughlan admits showing the documents to several McLaren employees. Even if they didn't want anything to do with this, why did it take several months to suspend him and "cooperate fully" when they should have blown the whistle on him immediately if they wished to maintain their "integrity."

It is the delay in action that casts serious doubts on McLaren's statements of innocence and integrity. :(

I'd like to know who Coughlan showed the plans to, when he showed the plans to them and in what context, and why they clammed up. This will be very interesting. Did Coughlan want the McLaren employees to jump ship with him to Honda? or some other team?

So many questions, and so few answers.

[Hawkmoon]

Unless there is a proverbial "smoking gun" in the Coughlan statement then I very much doubt that McLaren will be punished in any way. Even if there is a smoking gun in the statement McLaren will probably still escape serious punishment as it will come down to Coughlan's word against McLaren's.

I think the only effect this whole saga will have is to possibly change some peoples opinion of McLaren. I've hated McLaren for nearly 20 years so this hasn't changed my opinion of them at all. :D

I don't want to see McLaren excluded from the championship for two reasons. Firstly, I don't think that they have actually benefitted from Coughlan's possesion of the Ferrari documents and secondly, it would render Ferrari's inevitable championships somewhat hollow and leave a big question mark over Raikkonen's or Massa's first, and perhaps only, championship.

[Gannex]

[I]f one of [McLaren's] employees under contract to work for them took illegal and stolen documents into their factory, they are also responsible for the actions of their employee, arent they. Where's a lawyer on this forum to answer that one :?:

You refer, 555, to the doctrine of "respondeat superior" which holds that in certain cases the boss must answer for the screw-ups of his employee. But the doctrine is inapplicable where, as in this case, the employee is acting outside the legitimate scope of his authority. Robers v. Town of Black Mountain, 224 N.C. 119.

[Gannex]

555.

Time devoted to:

Reading your post: 00:01
Arguing with my wife (also a lawyer) about the doctrine of "respondeat superior": 02:30
Researching reference to the Black Mountain case: 00:10
Replying to your post: 0:03

Total time devoted to this matter: 2hrs 44mins, call it 2:30 at $400/hr.

Please remit the sum of $1,000 by return.

(Please note that, because you are a long-standing client, I have charged only for my own time spent conferring with my wife.)

Thanking you,

Gannex

[tinchote]

555.

Time devoted to:

Reading your post: 00:01
Arguing with my wife (also a lawyer) about the doctrine of "respondeat superior": 02:30
Researching reference to the Black Mountain case: 00:10
Replying to your post: 0:03

Total time devoted to this matter: 2hrs 44mins, call it 2:30 at $400/hr.

Please remit the sum of $1,000 by return.

(Please note that, because you are a long-standing client, I have charged only for my own time spent conferring with my wife.)

Thanking you,

Gannex

I don't know about the legal statement, but the rest shows you clearly as a real lawyer ;) :D

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

a sorry mess: i guess i'll go back into retirement.

[Valve Bounce]

I knew it, I just knew it. I always wanted to be a criminal lawyer, and this confirms it.

[leopard]

That hourly computing basis makes lawyer usually a man of means :(

[Hondo]

Wouldn't it be a hoot if the documents were pieced together and sent by one of the Ferrari "shred-bag" clean-up guys? You know, stuff he pulled out instead of shredding or burning it. Better still, the stuff was sent by Ferrari but all the measurements are just a little off and all the data is just a little "fudged"?

[Racehound]

so the poison pixie is forecasting what the fia are going to do regarding this affair.......according to him the McLaren drivers wont get penalised even if the team are found to be complicit in this spy scandal!!!!!......whats it got to do with him????.....and now coldturd gets a bit more media attention for himself by publicly declaring ron and McLaren are innocent!!!!.....how does HE know??????.....what has he got?....a crystal ball to see into the future????!!!!!........if ever midget man and coldturd have an opinion about anything then 9 times out of 10 it is the kiss of death!!!!!!!!....mate****s has signed dc for another year :( ((.......oh well, its his dosh!!!!!

[555-04Q2]

555.

Time devoted to:

Reading your post: 00:01
Arguing with my wife (also a lawyer) about the doctrine of "respondeat superior": 02:30
Researching reference to the Black Mountain case: 00:10
Replying to your post: 0:03

Total time devoted to this matter: 2hrs 44mins, call it 2:30 at $400/hr.

Please remit the sum of $1,000 by return.

(Please note that, because you are a long-standing client, I have charged only for my own time spent conferring with my wife.)

Thanking you,

Gannex

Are we talking US Dollars or Zimbabwe Dollars :?: :D :p :

[Racehound]

Why did it take them from March/April until July to take "appropriate" action????? That's my question. Coughlan admits showing the documents to several McLaren employees. Even if they didn't want anything to do with this, why did it take several months to suspend him and "cooperate fully" when they should have blown the whistle on him immediately if they wished to maintain their "integrity."

It is the delay in action that casts serious doubts on McLaren's statements of innocence and integrity. :(
totally agree with you there :) ..........if there is any delay betweeen the time these data discs were first shown amongst ANY McLaren employees to the time this fact was realised by a third party, then McLaren MUST know they dont have leg to stand on NOW!!!!!!!!!......it can only end in tears for poor Fernando and Lewis!!!!!............for Coughlan there is absolutely no excuse, and for Stepney we shall have to wait and see if it was him who has passed this information on to Coughlan!!!!.......but for sure there is only going to be a hardline approach from the fia(sco)..... :( ........look at the fuss over the "team orders" debacle from Monaco this year!!!!........that was a fart in a hurricane compared to this little tale of sabotage and espionage;.........and yet a part of me feels this could have all been instigated by Ferarri from the outset!!!!.........

[Racehound]

Looks like Mclaren is going to tighten their own noose. They are saying no one else was told about the documents at Mclaren, even though Coughlen already has a sword statement saying that he did. They also have the problem about asking about rules clarifications for some things that seemed to be related to Ferrari design specs.
i`D LIKE EVERYONE TO READ YOUR POST AGAIN!!!!! :)

[Racehound]

I don't want to sound like I am this genious or anything, but if we analize what papers are saying, this guy, Nigel, when nobody was around, walks towards the cars with a bag containing a mysterious powder in his hands. He dumps it in the tanks of these two cars, while is doing that, some of the powder falls around the cars and on the floor and after he's done...................HE DOES NOT CLEAN UP THE MESS????? How about leaving your business card behind? I am telling you, if he does not get arrested for damaging private property he should be arrested for STUPIDITY. That's quiete the plan. I want to sabotage these two cars but I'll leave some traces around, so that they can figure this out???????????????????? I don't get it.
OR if that's what really happend, they should arrest the Ferrari mechanics for stupidity, for seing this stuff around and not figuring it out. :) :) :)

PS Nigel Stepney has been notified by the SWA (Saboteur World Association) that he has been stripped of his membership and advised him to return/trash his online earned degree and get one from a real college. :) :)
when the ferarri mechanics saw it they rolled up 500 lire notes and started sniffing away!!!!!!....he he he

[Racehound]

I'm really looking forward to tomorrow (or is it next Tuesday?) so we can get some real insight into this matter. It's interesting that Coughlan and "another" person were listed on the complaint. Who is this "other" person? Hopefully we'll find out tomorrow.

Personally, I think this whole thing was created by Jeremy Clarkson!!!!
not clarkson!!!!.....that overgrown oaf only knows how to smash up caravans and chuck cars over cliffs or other such purile idiot pranks!!!!...hes a mess!!!.......if brains were dynamite he wouldn`t be able to blow his hat off!!!! :)

[Valve Bounce]

when the ferarri mechanics saw it they rolled up 500 lire notes and started sniffing away!!!!!!....he he he

I thought they were 50 euro notes :p :

You refer, 555, to the doctrine of "respondeat superior" which holds that in certain cases the boss must answer for the screw-ups of his employee. But the doctrine is inapplicable where, as in this case, the employee is acting outside the legitimate scope of his authority. Robers v. Town of Black Mountain, 224 N.C. 119.

Hope you haven't charged on a no win/no fee basis, because there is one major and fatal error in your case......

United States law does not apply in this case, whereas United Kingdom law does....to which I would like to draw the attention of the judge to The Queen vs Railtrack, 2002.

[Racehound]

I thought they were 50 euro notes :p :
oh yes...i forgot about us now living in the United States of Europe!!!!....its all euros now aint it!!!!............anyway......the "mysterious powder" is gonna turn out to be flour!!!!!.....if stepney was allegedly trying to sabotage their cars it would surely only have been thru trying to clog up the fuel lines or pump.........a simple sabotage procedure that requires no major expense to rectify should it be discovered.....i mean.if hed stuck a few ball-bearings inside the engine he woulda had a big bill for the replacement motors had he been found out!!!!.......quite a few euros i suspect!!! :)

[ArrowsFA1]

Nigel Stepney:

"I'm ready to speak to Jean Todt and to president Montezemolo. I want to clear my position with Ferrari; I want to let everyone understand it's nothing to do with me. And I want to reveal some names of people inside Ferrari who had more interest than myself in doing what I'm unfairly accused of. I have nothing against the team and I could never have done such things. I repeat: it's a conspiracy."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60886

Also, according to FIA steward Joaquin Verdegay:

"...if Ferrari have reached an agreement with Coughlan, it's because they think McLaren did not use that information in their car."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60887

[Valve Bounce]

oh yes...i forgot about us now living in the United States of Europe!!!!....its all euros now aint it!!!!............anyway......the "mysterious powder" is gonna turn out to be flour!!!!!.....if stepney was allegedly trying to sabotage their cars it would surely only have been thru trying to clog up the fuel lines or pump.........a simple sabotage procedure that requires no major expense to rectify should it be discovered.....i mean.if hed stuck a few ball-bearings inside the engine he woulda had a big bill for the replacement motors had he been found out!!!!.......quite a few euros i suspect!!! :)

Or castor(castrol) sugar :p :

[Valve Bounce]

Nigel Stepney:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60886

Also, according to FIA steward Joaquin Verdegay:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60887


I was right :) I was right all along - it was Elvis!! :D

[Flat.tyres]

Nigel Stepney:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60886

Also, according to FIA steward Joaquin Verdegay:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60887

now we're starting to get to the nitty gritty.

from what is being reported, it looks like McLaren are, as they have claimed all along, innocent in this matter and Ferrari have accepted it was a rougue individual.

I say "appears" but hopefully this will be confirmed soon.

now we're starting to get to the nitty gritty.

from what is being reported, it looks like McLaren are, as they have claimed all along, innocent in this matter and Ferrari have accepted it was a rougue individual.



Nitty Gritty? You must be joking.

I hope that for both Stepney & Mclaren's sake they have better defenses than that, because if that's the best they can come up with they are in trouble.

[Flat.tyres]

Nitty Gritty? You must be joking.

I hope that for both Stepney & Mclaren's sake they have better defenses than that, because if that's the best they can come up with they are in trouble.

well, if Ferrari believe that they had nothing to do with it and a representitve of the FIA giving pre-disclosure that it looks like they are in the clear, then would McLaren have to put up a defence to NO CASE TO ANSWER.