If there is a God..........

[CarlMetro]

.............and we are all part of his creation, then why does he/she/it let so much suffering carry on in this world? Why is it that the good die young, that we see a nine-year old boy be struck down with cancer, yet a paedophile will live to a ripe old age? Why do they stand by and watch millions of people die from famine yet let others become morbidly obese?

I'm not a believer but would be interested in the views of those who do.

[Drew]

Whenever I asked this question, I was always told that "God gives humans free will and what they do is up to them"

[Hawkmoon]

Whenever I asked this question, I was always told that "God gives humans free will and what they do is up to them"

This answer annoys me because it is a complete cop-out and does not answer the question even remotely.

People who believe in gods have faith and faith is something that doesn't require proof in order to exist. In fact, proof is the end of faith. We don't have faith that the sun will rise tommorrow because we know that it will. We don't need to believe in the rising of the sun in order for it to occur. The sun will rise regardless of whether humans do or don't believe.

Gods are a completely different matter. They don't exist if people don't believe in them. Or perhaps it would be more correct to say that religions wouldn't exist if people didn't have faith that what a religion preaches is true.

I think that is why we get these "God works in mysterious ways" statements. The religious leaders can't answer the question of "why did God let my baby die of cancer" so they say the only thing that they can say to preserve the persons faith and keep them in a job, ie. that it's "all part of God's design" or that it's "not God's fault because he gave people free will" and that "God has better things in store" for your cancer-stricken infant.

I don't want to offend anybody who does believe in gods and religion but as Carl said, how can you believe in a god who does nothing to prevent all the sh!tty things that happen to good, innocent people whilst the worst of humanity saunters through life untouched?

[Gannex]

One possible answer is that God does indeed exist, and did create the world, but he is completely unconcerned about human suffering. In other words, he is not compassionate in the slightest, just powerful. God, if he exists, could well be a sadist. That seems to me a fairly plausible answer to your question, Carl.

[oily oaf]

Thought provoking fare indeed Carl.
The bewildering paradox that has always left me scratching my shiny nut is this one.
When the Great Biblical Flood subsided and old Noah let all the animals get up on their toes and leave The Ark, how did the kangaroos get all the way to Oz???????
Oi! 'Oo said Easyjet? :mad:

Years ago we had an old West Indian geezer at work. He was a blinding fella but deeply religious and took The Bible as absolute gospel (see wot I di.....etc) and one day I put to him the very question that Carl has posed.
His answer was that all the horrors and injustices of the world were not God's work but that of Satan and that come Armageddon and The Trump Of Doom, and I'm not talking about one of Mrs Oaf's farts here, Divine retribution would be visited upon all sinners and perpetrators of the works of The Fallen Angel and that they would be cast down into the fiery torment of the inferno and would burn for all eternity.........face down :(
Blimey! I'd better shape up a bit before it's too late guys.
(removes nails from cats paws and lifts gently down from ceiling before striding out to shed with a nice bit of haddock for Hotbkerchic's brekky)

[Alexamateo]

Carl, this is a rather large question, considering philosophers and theologians have wrestled with the question down through the ages, and whole books have been written on this.

That said, humans do have free will. What that means is, we are free to choose to serve God or not to serve him. One is only truly loved by another, if that another is free to choose not to love you. Maybe if God needs anything from us, it is to be freely chosen. An example is yourself, you have chosen not to believe, not to love God, whereas I have chosen to believe, to love God.

Put another way, your dog neither very good nor very bad. Even if it bit or attacked, you would probably blame the owners or handlers. Well the more intelligent the person, the greater the capacity for good or for ill. Hitler must have been a brilliant person to have wrought such havoc and evil on the world.

So why then is there evil and suffering in the world? Well, If God has given us free will, so that we might choose to love him freely, he then must accept the fact that a potential consequence of that free will is that others will not choose to love him, and that others still may not only not choose him, but will choose to wreak havoc mayhem and evil in the world. One might say then that God is not all powerful, as he cannot break the rules of his own creation, although I am not sure that is it.

On that last part though, it might help to remember that God exists outside of creation, and is not bound by it, not bound by time.

I don't know if this helps or just adds more questions. Like I said, we could spend years discussing this. I would encourage you or anyone to read and question, and seek. Pick up Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Like you, he was an agnostic who became a Christian later in life by asking questions and seeking answers.

Randall

[oily oaf]

A well constructed, profound and insightful piece there from my man Alexameteo.
However loathe though I am to baulk at such theological verbosity I do have a few nagging reservations as to why I should launch myself Damascus style on the path of righteousness.
I mean to say if there truly was an omnipotent supreme being then why:

a) Does the pinging of my microwave always go on for about half an hour whenever I've got a hangover?

b) When God visited The Great Flood upon the Earth to cleanse it of hedonistic sinners and Arsenal supporters, why didn't he issue all the good blokes with half an Oatabix each to place in their front rooms so that the raging torrent would be instantly absorbed and they could carry on watching telly while all the wrong uns were swept away in the swirling maelstrom?

c) Why is he allowing West Ham goal ace Carlos Tevez to leave the club for Inter Milan for an undisclosed fee?

and d) How come he stood idly by when American telly decommissioned underwater drama "Seahunt" after a paltry 2 million episodes? Eh Eh? (fume)

(lights pipe, sucks cat up vacuum cleaner and tosses match at shed)

Sorry Alex just put me on ignore mate. It's the way forward. Trust me :(

For what it's worth in my pathetically humble opinion if everybody adhered strictly to the teachings of Jesus Christ, Mohammad, Buddha et al, this chaotic world would be a much happier and infinitely more peaceful place.
Here endeth the final lesson ;)

[Ian McC]

I think that if God does exist he would not want anyone to strap bombs to themselves and blow people up in his name. Pretty sure he would send those to hell.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Now pain, no gain, as they say. You can not appreciate the good unless you suffer from the evil. That's the way this world was designed and that's how you achieve you harmony, peace and happiness. God is much wiser than we sometimes think in our low moments.

[Ian McC]

Anyway, there is no God, probably better if people accept that, far too many people suffer in his name, now and and past.

Religion is the ultimate example of how humans f**k things up.

[CarlMetro]

Now pain, no gain, as they say. You can not appreciate the good unless you suffer from the evil. That's the way this world was designed and that's how you achieve you harmony, peace and happiness. God is much wiser than we sometimes think in our low moments.

So explain to me why my friends 9 year old son has been diagnosed with terminal cancer? When both of his parents are devout Christians? Why does a 9 year old boy have to feel so much pain in the eyes of God? Perhaps it's his parents or the rest of the family and friends who need to feel the pain?

I was once told by a religious woman I worked with that the reason God lets all the pain and suffering to continue is to punish those who have sinned. Well what sin has a 9 year old commited that warrants this level of punishment?

[janneppi]

So explain to me why my friends 9 year old son has been diagnosed with terminal cancer? When both of his parents are devout Christians? Why does a 9 year old boy have to feel so much pain in the eyes of God? Perhaps it's his parents or the rest of the family and friends who need to feel the pain?

I was once told by a religious woman I worked with that the reason God lets all the pain and suffering to continue is to punish those who have sinned. Well what sin has a 9 year old commited that warrants this level of punishment?

Well, apparently you have to break some eggs to make an omelette...

Sad to hear about the kid.

[Garry Walker]

I was once told by a religious woman I worked with that the reason God lets all the pain and suffering to continue is to punish those who have sinned. Well what sin has a 9 year old commited that warrants this level of punishment?

That is the only explanation the religious nutties can come up with. I would like to know it too why some kids are born with awful diseases and live a tragic life, where nothing good ever happens to them, yet a serial killer lives a happy and long life, without any punishment from "god". If "god" really lets things like that happen, then he has to be, without a doubt and by far, the biggest asshole to ever exist.

Im sorry to hear about that boy, cancer is a terrible terrible thing, especially when a young person has to suffer from it :(

It really amazes me how much power religion and "god" have in this world, you would think people would be intelligent enough not to be religious, but no.

[cosmicpanda]

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%206:2;&version=9;

It is interesting that the Bible says that sinners have already had their reward on Earth. Perhaps then, this 9 year old boy you speak of has found something better beyond Earth. Still, it is a terrible thing to happen. I feel for his friends and family.

[Garry Walker]

Perhaps then, this 9 year old boy you speak of has found something better beyond Earth. .
Yeah, that really makes sense :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

.............and we are all part of his creation, then why does he/she/it let so much suffering carry on in this world? Why is it that the good die young, that we see a nine-year old boy be struck down with cancer, yet a paedophile will live to a ripe old age? Why do they stand by and watch millions of people die from famine yet let others become morbidly obese?

I'm not a believer but would be interested in the views of those who do.
Sorry to hear about the boy Carl :(

As for whether or not there is a God? Meh :indifferent:

Won't stop me living my life how I live my live. Just because you believe in something doesn't make you a better person.

[Dave B]

I think the key word in the thread title is "If".

Carl, I'm really sorry to hear about your friend's son. I don't believe in any god, but if that's their choice then I hope their faith can give them the necessary strength to cope with their terrible situation.

Why do these things happen? Genetics. Science. Sheer bad luck. Any or all of those. But not god.

[cosmicpanda]

Yeah, that really makes sense :rolleyes:

I'm glad you think so.

Please, this isn't a thread to start arguing about theology.

[Dave B]

I thought it was exactly the thread for that.

I disagree totally with your opinion, but respect it nevertheless.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

If there is a God, why would it be Gods duty to stop pain and suffering?

Then there is the old 'karma' theory? :(

[Brown, Jon Brow]

.............and we are all part of his creation, then why does he/she/it let so much suffering carry on in this world? that we see a nine-year old boy be struck down with cancer.

Maybe God will this child come through the illness???

[Hawkmoon]

That is the only explanation the religious nutties can come up with. I would like to know it too why some kids are born with awful diseases and live a tragic life, where nothing good ever happens to them, yet a serial killer lives a happy and long life, without any punishment from "god". If "god" really lets things like that happen, then he has to be, without a doubt and by far, the biggest asshole to ever exist.

Im sorry to hear about that boy, cancer is a terrible terrible thing, especially when a young person has to suffer from it :(

It really amazes me how much power religion and "god" have in this world, you would think people would be intelligent enough not to be religious, but no.

I agree. I cannot understand how people can have faith in, and even love, an entity that feels it is necessary for innocent children to suffer so that other people can truly have faith in this so-called "god".

If a person were to allow some of the things to happen that god apparently allows to happen, we wouldn't hesitate to string the sadistic b&stard up by his balls. When god does it we're supposed to have faith in his plan and love him all the more.

If god has the power to stop the evil in the world but chooses not to then he is beneath contempt. If he has no power to stop it, then what good is he?

[jim mcglinchey]

If there is a God, why would it be Gods duty to stop pain and suffering?

Then there is the old 'karma' theory? :(


Speaking of Karma, I see that My Name is Earl is back. Did you know that most of the actors and writer/ producers on that show are Scientologists. Jobs for the boys and indoctrination in the form of a comedy programme.

[cosmicpanda]

I thought it was exactly the thread for that.

I disagree totally with your opinion, but respect it nevertheless.

OK, I initially thought it was a thread of mourning for this boy, but reading more carefully I see that discussion is invited.

I'm not a baptised christian, but I do go to a Catholic school. Now I know how my religious education teacher feels when we start debating with her :p :



If god has the power to stop the evil in the world but chooses not to then he is beneath contempt. If he has no power to stop it, then what good is he?

George Bush, the Iraqi leaders, the Israeli leaders, etc. are all able to stop a large amount of evil in this world, but they seem to have all decided to continue it. Does this also place them beneath contempt? Do you choose to ignore those good deeds that they may have done?

Personally, I don't think God takes a day to day interest in us. I do believe that he created the universe, and I will continue to believe that until science is able to explain it in a more satisfactory manner. I believe that he started off life in on earth, and will continue to believe that until science can find out a better reason. I don't think that he follows the minute workings of this Earth, particularly since he doesn't seem to have done very much in the last 2000 years. And it's probably better that way. I would be unbelievably scared if some almighty being descended upon us and started bossing us around.

But, myself, that's how I explain tragedies such as the passing of a 9 year old boy.

[jim mcglinchey]

what about all the good in the world, where does it come from. i never heard such s+it, this type of thread really brings it out!

[Hawkmoon]

George Bush, the Iraqi leaders, the Israeli leaders, etc. are all able to stop a large amount of evil in this world, but they seem to have all decided to continue it. Does this also place them beneath contempt? Do you choose to ignore those good deeds that they may have done?

That's about the first time that I've seen anyone compare George Bush to god. :D

Humans are fallible. God isn't supposed to be. If he is fallible, then I doubt he is capable of all that he gets credit for. How can someone who isn't perfect create something like the universe?


Personally, I don't think God takes a day to day interest in us. I do believe that he created the universe, and I will continue to believe that until science is able to explain it in a more satisfactory manner. I believe that he started off life in on earth, and will continue to believe that until science can find out a better reason. I don't think that he follows the minute workings of this Earth, particularly since he doesn't seem to have done very much in the last 2000 years. And it's probably better that way. I would be unbelievably scared if some almighty being descended upon us and started bossing us around.

But, myself, that's how I explain tragedies such as the passing of a 9 year old boy.

I think that's what this thread is about. How can religious people continue to put faith in a god who does nothing to help the very beings he apparently created? By your own admission, your god ignores us, yet you have faith in this being. I find this strange to say the least.

[Rudy Tamasz]

So explain to me why my friends 9 year old son has been diagnosed with terminal cancer? When both of his parents are devout Christians? Why does a 9 year old boy have to feel so much pain in the eyes of God? Perhaps it's his parents or the rest of the family and friends who need to feel the pain?

I was once told by a religious woman I worked with that the reason God lets all the pain and suffering to continue is to punish those who have sinned. Well what sin has a 9 year old commited that warrants this level of punishment?

I hope I'm not sinning by trying to explain it in the simplistic categories that I can only understand, but the ultimate goal is harmony or peace or whatever. If one dies, that only means a transition to another world, which is not necessarily worse than ours. I sympathize with the parents because it's always a tragedy to lose somebody you love (again, lose only in this life), but I believe the kid is now smiling somewhere.

It's not appropriate to apply heavenly laws to Earth, so bigots are probably wrong to say that so and so died because he sinned or his parents sinned. But it is just as inappropriate to apply earthly laws to Heaven and ask God why he didn't stop somebody from dying.

Sorry if I sound too primitive or too confusing.

[cosmicpanda]

That's about the first time that I've seen anyone compare George Bush to god. :D

I don't doubt it :p :


Humans are fallible. God isn't supposed to be. If he is fallible, then I doubt he is capable of all that he gets credit for. How can someone who isn't perfect create something like the universe?

...

How can religious people continue to put faith in a god who does nothing to help the very beings he apparently created? By your own admission, your god ignores us, yet you have faith in this being. I find this strange to say the least.

You say that humans are fallible, and that God isn't supposed to be. Yet perhaps our view of God's apparent fallibility (what a word) is distorted by our own fallibility? That is, just because we're selfish, arrogant wretches at times doesn't mean that God's wrong, it is only our perceived need that makes us think so. Yes, that's a pedantic way of looking at it.

I have faith in God's being because I can find no other explanation for things that science cannot explain. The Bible contains several such things that nowadays manage to sound more-or-less unimpressive - water into wine, etc, are such cliches that we tend to ignore them. But science currently fails to explain the creation of the universe and the creation of life, so I attribute that to God.

You forget that very religious Christians (indeed, most Christians, not necessarily the most religious of all.. I say Christians only, as I cannot speak for what other religions believe) also believe in the promise of life after death. Do you think that life after death sounds worthwhile?

I would like to point out that I'm not a fundamentalist Christian who takes the Bible literally. I've had several conversations with such people, and they've tended to scare me a bit. One of these was a physics teacher, who had somehow mentioned to reconcile modern physics with fundamentalist Christianity. Among his ideas were that the Earth is about 6000 years old, and the dinosaurs are a hoax planted by God. Global warming is also apparently a hoax and continental drift was more of a continental snap, resulting in the instantaneous transformation of the original landmass into the landscape we know today, and of course, Noah's flood. It was a slightly surreal discussion.


what about all the good in the world, where does it come from. i never heard such s+it, this type of thread really brings it out!

I think that humans, while responsible for a lot of the evil in the world, are also responsible for a lot of the good.

[CharlieJ]

MAN created GOD in his own image.

:uhoh:

[race aficionado]

. . . . .For what it's worth in my pathetically humble opinion if everybody adhered strictly to the teachings of Jesus Christ, Mohammad, Buddha et al, this chaotic world would be a much happier and infinitely more peaceful place.
Here endeth the final lesson ;)


Ahhhh . . . . what a wonderfull way to end your essay my wise Oily.



:s mokin:

[Drew]

Nobody can understand everything that happens, sometimes it just happens. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger :\

[Captain VXR]

I don't beleive a word of the creation or noah's ark story - they are more metaphorical than true. I am a christian. I beleive God made the big bang happen and left the universe to it and then assessing the lives of all living things and to see which ones go to heaven, purgatory and hell. I understand the loss and questioning God because it must be such a hard time but maybe the child will have a far better next life

[Ian McC]

If one dies, that only means a transition to another world

And this is why people still believe, the need to hope there is something beyond, that our departed loved ones wait for us there etc etc.

There is neither proof and evidence, only words written in an age that had a lot less understanding than us.

[Hawkmoon]

And this is why people still believe, the need to hope there is something beyond, that our departed loved ones wait for us there etc etc.

There is neither proof and evidence, only words written in an age that had a lot less understanding than us.

I think this is why I will never be swayed by any religion. I am completely comfortable with, what I believe to be the fact, that there is no "afterlife". When you die, that's it. Game over. Fertiliser time.

What I do in my life counts now. I do the right thing because it's the right thing. Not because I have to do it to get into "heaven". That sounds a lot like coersion to me.

[fandango]

If there is a God, and if He came down and made the world a fair place, people would just complain to Him about some other stuff, the bad coverage on their mobiles or something.

I don't believe in God (nor do I disbelieve), but I've certainly prayed to Him at certain times in my life. It's better for you if you do the right thing, and good and bad **** happens.

[Ian McC]

I think this is why I will never be swayed by any religion. I am completely comfortable with, what I believe to be the fact, that there is no "afterlife". When you die, that's it. Game over. Fertiliser time.

What I do in my life counts now. I do the right thing because it's the right thing. Not because I have to do it to get into "heaven". That sounds a lot like coersion to me.

Subdication of the masses as it was, do as you are told and be good you will get into heaven. Even then some parts of the human race pervert that, blow yourself up and kill people will get you in there. :s

[cosmicpanda]

And this is why people still believe, the need to hope there is something beyond, that our departed loved ones wait for us there etc etc.

There is neither proof and evidence, only words written in an age that had a lot less understanding than us.

But there's no proof that it doesn't exist.

Then again, since there's no clear concept of what Heaven actually is, it's difficult to disprove.

[Garry Walker]

But there's no proof that it doesn't exist.

Is there proof that flying bigfoots dont exist? nope. Does it mean they exist?

There is no need to disprove god existing, because there is no proof that he exists. Its up to the religious nutties to prove god exist first, so far there is no evidence.

Let me ask this question - if god exists, why hasnt anyone seen him? Is he invisible?

[Drew]

Let me ask this question - if god exists, why hasnt anyone seen him? Is he invisible?

The argument for this one is that God is outside of all space and time, it's hard to get your head around that, that's for sure.

[race aficionado]

. . . . .
Let me ask this question - if god exists, why hasnt anyone seen him? Is he invisible?

For some of us, when we look in the mirror we see that God exists because for some of us, we see God In Us.
I believe you are also "God like" because we are indeed a manifestation of what has made all of this happen.
And what powers do we have? Oh, they are great. We all have the power to make of this world a better place, it just takes the fact that we acknowledge that we are indeed a manifestation of the creator (and don't give it a shape or a personality because we are talking of energy here) and that we are creators ourselves..

Once humanity sees that we are all one, when we realize that we should follow the Golden Rule that so many teachers have reminded us of, we will start creating a heaven on earth. it is all at our disposal we just have to make some house cleaning and we will all be all-right.


simplistic huh????? sure . . . . . but oh so powerful.


peace brothers, ;)

and let's get working then.

:)

:s mokin:

[jim mcglinchey]

Amen to that

[Ian McC]

Once humanity sees that we are all one, when we realize that we should follow the Golden Rule that so many teachers have reminded us of, we will start creating a heaven on earth. it is all at our disposal we just have to make some house cleaning and we will all be all-right.


A nice thought, but the world will have gone to hell in a hand basket long before we even get close :(

[race aficionado]

A nice thought, but the world will have gone to hell in a hand basket long before we even get close :(



Indeed. It's a battle then.



Let's get working ! Make a difference . . . do whatever it is that you can do so that we indeed don't go hell in a hand basket.


:s mokin:

[cosmicpanda]

Is there proof that flying bigfoots dont exist? nope. Does it mean they exist?

There is no need to disprove god existing, because there is no proof that he exists. Its up to the religious nutties to prove god exist first, so far there is no evidence.

Let me ask this question - if god exists, why hasnt anyone seen him? Is he invisible?

I find your first question to be a bit strange. New species of organisms are being discovered all the time, yet there might not have been proof beforehand that they existed. Therefore, there might well be a flying bigfoot, for all we know.

I find your second point to be strange as well - because why, if there is proof that God exists, would you then try to disprove it? That's like finding out that 2 + 2 = 4, and then trying to disprove that. It is not only up to the "religious nutties" to prove that God exists, but also up to those who prefer to believe that there is no God to prove that.

And as has been said, the general belief is that God exists outside of time and space. Whether that means that he's in another dimension, or whether it means something else, I don't quite know.

However, according to the Bible, people have seen God - you might wish to check out any one of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John for some accounts of this. If you think that these are biased or unsuitable in any way, look back into the Old Testament and read about the various prophets dealing with God.

[ShiftingGears]

And as has been said, the general belief is that God exists outside of time and space.

So ideally placed so we can't disprove it? How convenient.


I think the Russells Teacup theory is quite accurate in what it is highlighting.


"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time." - Bertrand Russell

[Hawkmoon]

However, according to the Bible, people have seen God - you might wish to check out any one of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John for some accounts of this. If you think that these are biased or unsuitable in any way, look back into the Old Testament and read about the various prophets dealing with God.

There's the problem right there. If your'e not religious the Bible is not a particularly reliable source of fact. For me, the Chinese Whispers principle pretty much confines the Bible to the same category as any other text that was written 1500 or 1600 years ago and has been translated from one language to another over and over again.

I mean Noah put two of every animal on the planet into a boat and sailed around for a month. What the hell? OK, so it's more a metaphor than a statement of fact, but that's my point. The Bible can be, and has been, interpreted in a number of ways.

I'm sorry, but just because something's in the Bible isn't enough for me to take it as gosspel, pun intended.

[Roy]

Sick, dead, war, and even seen a 9 years boy has cancer is bad, but live. This is an hard fact, I know. The question I want to ask: Why should God take it away?

The answer of the women is incorrect. It is not a punishment. That answer makes me angry.

[millencolin]

then why does he/she/it let so much suffering carry on in this world?

For A Laugh. God has a sick and twisted sense of humour

[Rollo]

Is there proof that flying bigfoots dont exist? nope. Does it mean they exist?

There is no need to disprove god existing, because there is no proof that he exists. Its up to the religious nutties to prove god exist first, so far there is no evidence.

Let me ask this question - if god exists, why hasnt anyone seen him? Is he invisible?

How do you propose to prove something actually exists? Anything to prove something exists must lie with an a priori argument. Can you prove that you exist?

[CarlMetro]

However, according to the Bible, people have seen God - you might wish to check out any one of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John for some accounts of this. If you think that these are biased or unsuitable in any way, look back into the Old Testament and read about the various prophets dealing with God.

There's a bloke in my local town centre every Saturday, from about 9 in the morning until his carer collects him at about 2 in the afternoon. He claims to be the 2nd coming, the 2nd son of God, perhaps he is? Perhaps I should go and ask him why his Dad lets all the suffering continue in this world when, being the almighty power that he is, could snap his fingers and stop it all in an instant?

[Mark]

Subdication of the masses as it was.

That's a large part of what religion is/was all about. Think of the polite term for when someone has died, i.e. they are 'at rest', bascially in times gone by you didn't have much chance to live past retirement so you worked until you died, with the promise of rest when you got to heaven... These days we have the much more sensible working time directive :D . All praise the EU ;)

[Garry Walker]

I find your first question to be a bit strange. New species of organisms are being discovered all the time, yet there might not have been proof beforehand that they existed. Therefore, there might well be a flying bigfoot, for all we know.
Yes there might be, but that chance is very little, if not to say non-existant, isnt that so?


I find your second point to be strange as well - because why, if there is proof that God exists, would you then try to disprove it?

What are you on? Where did I say i would start disproving the existance of god, after it has been proven he/she exists?


It is not only up to the "religious nutties" to prove that God exists, but also up to those who prefer to believe that there is no God to prove that.

People have been trying to prove the existance of god for centuries, without any success. And no, the non-religious people have to do nothing about god, there has never been given any credible proof that he/she exists, so why would we waste our time?
god is something that weak people need, because they dont have enough self-condifence and self-power to manage. Thats how I see things anyway.


And as has been said, the general belief is that God exists outside of time and space. Whether that means that he's in another dimension, or whether it means something else, I don't quite know.
oh is that so, how convenient is that? How does god look? Is he 8 feet tall? or 1 cm tall? Is it a He or a She? Or is god a hermaphrodite? Is one only able to see god after 2 bottles of rum?


However, according to the Bible, people have seen God - you might wish to check out any one of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John for some accounts of this. If you think that these are biased or unsuitable in any way, look back into the Old Testament and read about the various prophets dealing with God.No thanks, I dont read and waste my time with retarded ramblings like the bible.


So ideally placed so we can't disprove it? How convenient.


I think the Russells Teacup theory is quite accurate in what it is highlighting.

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time." - Bertrand Russell

Awesome.

[Firstgear]

Everybody believes in Something. As Bob Dylan puts it ...

...you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,

If you think you don't believe in anything, that just means you've chosen Science or Yourself as your own God. This way you don't have to "...serve somebody..." because you've put yourself at the top of the food chain.

So.....all that's left to do is to prove that you are god.

[Kneeslider]

Some words of wisdom from the late, great British comedian Linda Smith:-

"As an Atheist, I like to think that I get along with everyone."

Does anyone think that humans need to be taught to be offended by things, and if so, how does that come about?

[jso1985]

What are you on? Where did I say i would start disproving the existance of god, after it has been proven he/she exists?


People have been trying to prove the existance of god for centuries, without any success. And no, the non-religious people have to do nothing about god, there has never been given any credible proof that he/she exists, so why would we waste our time?
god is something that weak people need, because they dont have enough self-condifence and self-power to manage. Thats how I see things anyway.


oh is that so, how convenient is that? How does god look? Is he 8 feet tall? or 1 cm tall? Is it a He or a She? Or is god a hermaphrodite? Is one only able to see god after 2 bottles of rum?



think of something beyond anything material, God ain't something you can touch with your hands and feel it, you can't touch your memory(for example) but you know it exists right?

[akv89]

I would like to meet the first person who came up with the idea of God. I wonder under what circumstances he/she was willing to submit to a power that was not proven to have existed beforehand. If they chose to ignore the concept of God when they thought of it, would religion exist today? I definitely think so. I think that belief in a higher power is innate in every single person, despite the irrationality of the idea itself. Regardless of how strong a person is, everyone has a breaking point when all rational thought goes out the window and the only thing keeping them going in life is belief in the irrational. If nowhere else, God exists at least in the human mind.

It just so happens that some people chose to give this higher power a more concrete image to better understand the idea of God. And some other people gave him characteristics and wrote stories about him, and turned him from an idea that gives comfort to people in need into a power that must be worshiped.

However, people soon started to take these stories seriously and believed that they were fact. Instead of understanding the meaning behind the stories, people start arguing for creationism and refuse to believe that the earth is more than just 5000 years old. When scientists begin to disprove these ideas one by one, people begin to doubt their holy texts, then they doubt their religion, and then they doubt God. As a result, these people turn their backs on religion and the idea of God.

I have nothing against atheism or anything of that sort if it's helping people out. But I have little respect for the intellect of those who argue against God simply on scientific beliefs (Science is a passion of mine btw). Einstein himself stated that "Science without religion is lame, and religion without science is blind." Proving that stories related to God are wrong scientifically does not mean that God does not exist; it just means that some people fabricated stories about him. I can sympathize with those who have lost belief in God because of their morality, a concern that this thread addresses by arguing how God can let a child be afflicted with cancer and at the same time let serial killers on the loose. When I asked this to myself, I simply came to the conclusion that God does not make moral arguments. To me, God is something that simply keeps things going. I can take comfort in this fact in my desperate times by knowing that God keeps the clock ticking and that any pain that I endure at that point will not be there forever.

It is impossible to prove or disprove that God exists by anyone other than God, if he exists; the idea of God is just so subjective and so diverse in various cultures. So there is no point in us debating whether or not God exists. What matters is simply whether or not we believe in God and the way in which our choice has affected the way we live our lives. Personally, I do believe in a God and I am very comfortable with my reasons to do so and the way my belief is affecting my life.

[Ian McC]

I would like to meet the first person who came up with the idea of God. I wonder under what circumstances he/she was willing to submit to a power that was not proven to have existed beforehand. If they chose to ignore the concept of God when they thought of it, would religion exist today? I definitely think so. I think that belief in a higher power is innate in every single person, despite the irrationality of the idea itself. Regardless of how strong a person is, everyone has a breaking point when all rational thought goes out the window and the only thing keeping them going in life is belief in the irrational. If nowhere else, God exists at least in the human mind.

It just so happens that some people chose to give this higher power a more concrete image to better understand the idea of God. And some other people gave him characteristics and wrote stories about him, and turned him from an idea that gives comfort to people in need into a power that must be worshiped.

However, people soon started to take these stories seriously and believed that they were fact. Instead of understanding the meaning behind the stories, people start arguing for creationism and refuse to believe that the earth is more than just 5000 years old. When scientists begin to disprove these ideas one by one, people begin to doubt their holy texts, then they doubt their religion, and then they doubt God. As a result, these people turn their backs on religion and the idea of God.

I have nothing against atheism or anything of that sort if it's helping people out. But I have little respect for the intellect of those who argue against God simply on scientific beliefs (Science is a passion of mine btw). Einstein himself stated that "Science without religion is lame, and religion without science is blind." Proving that stories related to God are wrong scientifically does not mean that God does not exist; it just means that some people fabricated stories about him. I can sympathize with those who have lost belief in God because of their morality, a concern that this thread addresses by arguing how God can let a child be afflicted with cancer and at the same time let serial killers on the loose. When I asked this to myself, I simply came to the conclusion that God does not make moral arguments. To me, God is something that simply keeps things going. I can take comfort in this fact in my desperate times by knowing that God keeps the clock ticking and that any pain that I endure at that point will not be there forever.

It is impossible to prove or disprove that God exists by anyone other than God, if he exists; the idea of God is just so subjective and so diverse in various cultures. So there is no point in us debating whether or not God exists. What matters is simply whether or not we believe in God and the way in which our choice has affected the way we live our lives. Personally, I do believe in a God and I am very comfortable with my reasons to do so and the way my belief is affecting my life.

How can you say you have little respect for the intellect of those who argue against God simply on scientific beliefs? Surely you are talking about people looking at the facts and making a decision based on them?

If you want to go back and look at the roots of religion and God (or Gods) then you are going back to cavemen times, primitive man and their failure to understand their surroundings, lightning, thunder and other basic elements. As man developed so did religion, but still with that basic need to give understanding and then meaning to their lives. God didn't create man, man created God

The same is true today, maybe the question is not does God exist? But why do we need God to exist?

[CharlieJ]

If you want to go back and look at the roots of religion and God (or Gods) then you are going back to cavemen times, primitive man and their failure to understand their surroundings, lightning, thunder and other basic elements. As man developed so did religion, but still with that basic need to give understanding and then meaning to their lives. God didn't create man, man created God

The same is true today, maybe the question is not does God exist? But why do we need God to exist?
As Ian says, Gods were a way of explaining things that people didn't understand.

Unfortunately, from very early times, some of the more astute members of the human race erealised that these Gods (or, mostly, the fear of them) could be used to control people.

The rise of Science should means that Gods are now redundant, but since only a small percentage of people really understand most Science, God prevails.