Driver who never got the break [Archive]

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nik

16th December 2006, 18:13

Put forward a few nominations to drivers who never got the F1 breaks they deserved.

My main one for me is Pierluigi Martini. He put some great performances in, for Minardi and never got a top drive. Also Alex Caffi was underrated. (even though he was prone to accidents away from the race track)

jens

16th December 2006, 18:59

Stefano Modena.

Managed to beat his Brabham team-mate Brundle.
Then destroyed Nakajima by at least the same margin as Piquet.
Marvellous drive in Canada and especially at Monaco in 1991.
Joined Jordan after team's promising debut season, but the second season turned out to be a disaster, which also destroyed Stefano's career. He was anonymous in races and got no notice from stronger teams from there on...

And I agree that Martini was also definetely better than his results show. On several occasions he qualified his Minardi into Top3!

Eki

16th December 2006, 19:18

Razenberger, who if I remember correctly died in his first race in Imola 1994.

SuperAguri

17th December 2006, 08:59

Third meeting, didn't qualify for the first and came 11th at Aida, before he died.

The award has go to Marco Apicella, 1 GP, 100 yards!

D-Type

17th December 2006, 23:24

I don't think there is really such a thing as 'Not getting the breaks they deserved'. What does happen is that Formula 1 is an unforgiving world. Most driversonly get one opportunity and some fail to take advantage of it. Team mangers are not stupid, they are very perspective. They can see when someone isn't up to it. What is mysterious is how some drivers shine in junior formulae but seam to run out of impetus when they reach the top formula. I can never say why - but then I'm not a team manager.

Eki

18th December 2006, 22:20

What is mysterious is how some drivers shine in junior formulae but seam to run out of impetus when they reach the top formula.
I think one good example of that was Mika Salo. He was very close to Mika Häkkinen in British F3 in 1989. Häkkinen was more introverted and focused and therefore he succeeded, Salo was more extroverted and outgoing and didn't succeed as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mika_Salo#Formula_3_and_Early_F1_career

schmenke

18th December 2006, 22:36

I think one good example of that was Mika Salo. He was very close to Mika Häkkinen in British F3 in 1989. Häkkinen was more introverted and focused and therefore he succeeded, Salo was more extroverted and outgoing and didn't succeed as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mika_Salo#Formula_3_and_Early_F1_career

True, despite having a go in a Ferrari.

jens

18th December 2006, 23:42

I think that Salo was close to Häkkinen also as an F1 driver. He just never got a decent chance. In Ferrari as a newcomer he managed to outdrive Irvine on two occasions out of six! And in Tyrrell he had also several brilliant races and was fighting for podium place already at his 3rd race in F1. And drove consistently well in Sauber and Toyota.

akv89

19th December 2006, 01:23

Two drivers who showed great promise, but whose success never materialized because of their mortality were Elio de Angelis and Stefan Bellof.
Elio de Angelis nearly won his first race at the age of 20 in 1980 at the brazilian gp. He was never in truly competitive machinery with the possible (but unlikely) exception of the 1985 Lotus-Renault which he shared with Ayrton Senna. He and Senna were toe to toe that year with Senna finishing with 38 championship points and de Angelis with 33.
Belloff was another amazing driver. He currently holds the lap record for nurburgring which he set over 20 years ago. He was the idol of Michael Schumacher. Many might remember Monaco 1984 as the grand prix in which Ayrton Senna nearly won with a Toleman after starting from 13th on the grid. Belloff started 20th on the grid in a Tyrell!!! and by the end of the race, he was catching up to Senna and Prost. Without a doubt he would have given Senna, Prost, and Mansell a run for their money in the WDC race in the late 80's and early 90's if he was alive and in competitive machinery.

Cozzie

19th December 2006, 05:29

Mauricio Gugelmin
His achievements in his first year in the March were outstanding. Then things went wrong with March being taken over and the 1992 Jordan wasn't brilliant.

ArrowsFA1

19th December 2006, 08:28

Mike Thackwall always struck me as someone who should have made it in F1. He had a few stabs at it in uncompetitive machinery, had a couple of races with Penske in CART, then won races in F3000 before quitting the sport. I'm not sure if it was a case of not getting the breaks, or not wanting it enough, but he had the talent to do more than his record shows.

Stephen South was another who seemed destined to do well. He could have been in the Toleman team that dominated F2 with Henton & Warwick, tested (IIRC) for Lotus at the same time as Mansell, but made just one DNQ appearance for McLaren at Long Beach in 1980. A serious accident in Can-Am ended his career.

Bolton Midnight

19th December 2006, 17:57

Martin Brundle either had second rate cars or top notch team mates who got everything their own way, also Jonny Herbert.

J P Jarier could have done better had he had a decent car.

Odd to think that people like Tambay, Depailler, Arnoux, Lafitte, Reutemann, Regazoni and Berger could quite easily have been world champions had things unfolded differently.

Am sure if you had put someone like Trulli in championship winning car from the last 5 years he'd have a crown by now.

19th December 2006, 19:03

Phillippe Streiff & Allan McNish.

Streiff put his Ligier 5th on the grid on his first proper F1 start (he did the '84 Portugal GP in a 3rd Renault 'camera' car but the Euro GP of '85 was his first genuine GP). Just as good as any of his more experienced team-mates in pretty average Tyrrells, found his spiritual home at AGS then suffered a broken back in testing.

McNish was just as good (even better?) than Hakkinen when they were team-mates at Dragon. It took Mika only another 2 seasons to break into F1 and McNish another 15 seasons, which never seemed right.

Dazz9908

21st December 2006, 02:57

Razenberger, who if I remember correctly died in his first race in Imola 1994.

His First Season. Failed to Qualified at Brazil, Raced in the Pacific GP, Died in Practice at Imola. :(

Dazz9908

21st December 2006, 03:05

James Courtney
Brilliant By the wheel of any car.
Made it as high as a test driver a test driver.
Career destroyed by Suspension failure in testing for Jaguar at Monza were he suffered server head injuries. I think in 2002 or 03.
No trusted him with a F1 car ever again because of his injuries suffered. Mika HAkk Suffered head injuries in Australia in 05, came back and won 2 wdc.

nik

21st December 2006, 14:41

I never knew that about Courtney. I saw him in British F3 and thougt his single seater career had just ended. Not to worry, he's doing great in V8 Supercars.

22nd December 2006, 12:50

Tommy Byrne anyone?

He drove for Theodore for half a season as substitute for Patrick Tambay.

Ranger

22nd December 2006, 13:08

How about Ryan Briscoe?

Obviously talented and very quick.

Pity he only got a chance with the driver void that is the Toyota works team.

Ranger

22nd December 2006, 13:09

I never knew that about Courtney. I saw him in British F3 and thougt his single seater career had just ended. Not to worry, he's doing great in V8 Supercars.

That guy is a champion in waiting much like Marcos Ambrose. :up:

Stuartf12007

23rd December 2006, 00:17

Martin Donnelly outstanding in F3000 and would have been world champion but for his serious track accident in the Jordan.

SuperAguri

23rd December 2006, 14:30

You mean Lotus?

Both were yellow though, easy mistake

Stuartf12007

23rd December 2006, 21:00

no definetly a jordan

cos

23rd December 2006, 21:17

Definitely a Lotus. That accident was at Jerez, 1990.

nik

24th December 2006, 00:43

no definetly a jordan

I bet you £20 Million it was a Lotus. 1990 - Jordan weren't even an F1 team then.

JPMfan

24th December 2006, 09:08

Ivan Capelli, he had some stunning drives in the March before he faded away in the ill handling Ferrari.

Btw Donnely crashed in a Lotus

Stuartf12007

24th December 2006, 14:34

yea ok it was a lotus, i got mixed up between the j and the L

thesprog

24th December 2006, 14:53

I think Tom Kristensen deserved an F1 race seat at some point in his career

jens

24th December 2006, 17:47

I'd add some other names.

Karl Wendlinger and Christian Fittipaldi - none of them just failed to score a podium finish. Both were young, when they joined F1. Wendlinger scored several points in 1992 for the underfunded March team. In 1993 in the Sauber he was on quite several occasions on the picture and for example Michael Andretti took him out at Donington while driving 4th. He also had a good start into 1994 and at Imola just missed out of podium, finishing right of behind Häkkinen. Without that Monaco crash he could have had a promising career.

And on the other hand Christian. In 1993 and 1994 he did a decent job in his Minardi and Footwork respectively, finishing in the points on several occasions and beating his team-mate. For some reason top teams didn't pay attention on him and he decided to leave for CART...

And of course Esteban Tuero. IMO he was not much less impressive on his debut season with Minardi than Alonso 3 years later at the same age and in the same team. Esteban got slightly injured at the Suzuka accident with Takagi and that is said to be one of the reasons, why he decided to quit from F1. By the way - Minardi had offered him contract for 1999 as well.

IMO all of them had potential to get a seat in a top team and show decent form there. :rolleyes:

eloyf1

30th December 2006, 22:32

Stefan Bellof... If he hadn't got his fatal crash in Spa 1985 passing Ickx, he could be one of the greats, fighting with Senna and Prost...

Abel Karaj

1st January 2007, 16:32

We had a few French drivers who deserved a go: Emmanuel Collard, Stephane Sarrazin, Romain Dumas, Nic Minassian. Sebastien Bourdais of course.

eloyf1

1st January 2007, 17:58

I think Tom Kristensen deserved an F1 race seat at some point in his career
He was Minardi's test driver in 1996 ;-)

CarlMetro

4th January 2007, 13:50

I would have to say Alan McNish from recent times. His performances at Toyota in their first year and subsequent displays in Sports cars proved he is quick and consistant. I was very sruprised when neither he, nor Mika Salo were signed up to Toyota for a drive.

From a little earlier I would say Gianni Morbidelli. Showed plenty of talent in the drives for Minardi, Footwork and those rare Ferrari drives but never really got the chance to join a team with championship potential. Good performances with sub-standard machinery.

Mark in Oshawa

4th January 2007, 22:05

Mc Nish in the modern era. Also Alex Zanardi never seemed to show what he had in Champ Car in f1. I think with a different team, fate would have been different.

Guys in the past I cant really name right now...but you have to know some damned fine race drivers never got more than a cup of coffee in f1.

tsarcasm

8th January 2007, 04:12

mika salo
sebastian bordais (sp?)
greg moore (died)

futuretiger9

15th January 2007, 02:42

What tends to happen is that drivers, for varying reasons, do not get a chance in a competitive car. This has the effect of draining their confidence, thus influencing the quality of their driving in poor machinery. Consequently, team managers who were previously considering hiring them think that they have "lost it". The break therefore never arrives. Some drivers go into a downward spiral.

I can think of some examples:- Alex Caffi, Bertrand Gachot, JJ Lehto, Pierluigi Martini.

Bolton Midnight

15th January 2007, 16:07

I can think of some examples:- Bertrand Gachot

Surely his disappearance from the horizon had more to do with a London cabbie, CS gas canister and a certain German super sub.

Bit like Thomas Scheckter curb crawling in a Jag.

Robinho

15th January 2007, 17:11

thinking of Gachot, i was watching a motorsport memory show on Motors the other evening, featuring the '87 F3, i only saw a bit but it included Martin Donnely, Johnny Herbert, Bertrand Gachot, Damon Hill and Perry McCarthy battling at the front, that must have been quite a season.

Bolton Midnight

15th January 2007, 18:47

He's mentioned in McCarthy's book.

futuretiger9

27th January 2007, 18:41

Mention of the 1987 F3 season prompts another thought. The chances of a driver getting a break in F1 are often influenced by the preponderance of talent in his era or generation.

The late 1980s were full of talent in European F3000 and F3. There was only enough room for a few of these hotshoes in F1, and this situation become more acute as Grand Prix grids shrank in the 1990s. Many drivers, particularly British, French and Italian, disappeared. Often, financial constraints were the deciding factor. When these drivers did arrive in F1, their progression was blocked.

Randall Flagg

8th June 2007, 00:10

I've always had something for Luca Badoer, though it's clear he wont get anywhere now, in his mid 30's. Having cars like the Scuderia Italia Lola and the Forti could not have helped his confidence...

Zanardi in '99 was a disaster, but in his earlier years, his results were very encouraging indeed. A talent that clearly never came through in tough circumstances (his accident in Spa '93, remember).

Valve Bounce

8th June 2007, 02:29

Jo Schlesser :http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr167.html

I had the picture of the Honda or what was left of it, but I've lost the MOTOR magazine now.

dwboogityfan

8th June 2007, 10:12

Derek Warwick was always very fast but seemed to always be in the right car a year too late i.e. Lotus.
Brundle matched Senna in F3 and had a second place in his first season but never got the results he was capable of. Could have been a World Champion though if Frank Williams had stuck to the contract he had for Martin before signing Damon Hill for 1993.
For all his talent, Jean Alesi only winning one race was a tragedy.

Garry Walker

8th June 2007, 15:50

Stefan Bellof... If he hadn't got his fatal crash in Spa 1985 passing Ickx, he could be one of the greats, fighting with Senna and Prost...

No, Bellof was nowhere the driver Prost and Senna were.

jens

8th June 2007, 16:30

No, Bellof was nowhere the driver Prost and Senna were.

What is that opinion based on?

truefan72

8th June 2007, 18:05

Betrand Gachot,

who was fast but caused his own downfall. It didn't help that MS replaced him and basically ended his F1 career.

On a mre recent note, Weldon from the IRL. I think he might/should get a look in F1.

futuretiger9

9th June 2007, 21:51

Going back further in time, Tim Schenken was another who could have made it really big. He produced some fine performances for Brabham and Surtees in the early 70s, and also starred for Ferrari in sportscars. After failing to be picked up by a big team (despite a couple of drives for Lotus), his career quietly faded away.

Ranger

10th June 2007, 01:42

What is that opinion based on?

Very sadly, not much.

Priorat

10th June 2007, 11:44

Jordi Gené. He was level and beat many times Barricello and Coulthard in British F3 and F3000. But he was too soft in a test with Benetton and later the failed spanish Bravo F1 project made him disappear. Perhaps not a world champion but he could have won some races for sure.

Garry Walker

10th June 2007, 16:43

Very sadly, not much.
Very sadly, for you, you are mistaken.

Bellof didnt particulary shine against Brundle in equal cars, and people need to wake up to reality in regards to Monaco 84. It was so wet, that the fact that Tyrrell didnt have Turbo, actually started giving them an advantage. Added to that, that car was illegal, so its was pure cheating. And in addition to that, he actually wasnt gaining on Senna most of the time.

The reason Bellof is so highly regarded, despite the fact he did pretty much nothing in F1, comes down to one thing - his death on racetrack. Just as was the case with Gilles Villeneuve and probably Senna too, their deaths have made people forget many things and start hyping them. That is undeniable nostalgia.

Not that Bellof wasnt a good driver. He was. But he was nowhere near the quality of Senna or Prost and never would have amounted to anything near that.

futuretiger9

10th June 2007, 21:53

Randall Flagg

10th June 2007, 22:04

CarlMetro

11th June 2007, 08:43

Just as was the case with Gilles Villeneuve and probably Senna too, their deaths have made people forget many things and start hyping them.

I've seen you post some crap before but you've taken it to heights I never thought possible :rolleyes:

Ranger

11th June 2007, 13:17

and never would have amounted to anything near that.

My point is that after 1.5 Formula One seasons in an underpowered Tyrell and potential shown during that time, you cannot possibly prove that he would or would not have amounted to someone like Senna or Prost.

I can guarantee you nobody would have thought Prost would score nearly twice as many wins as Jackie Stewart or Jim Clark and more Championships than both of them after 1.5 years into his F1 career. Senna's case may have been a little different, but I wouldn't know about the hype around Senna at the time as his debut was 6 years before I was born.

As Bellof's career is an unknown or unfinished quantity, it is something you can only question or ponder, which is exactly what the person you quoted in this thread was doing. The fact is that you cannot possibly prove or disprove speculation of the unknown. The person you quoted would have seemed silly IF they had said that Bellof WOULD have been a great, because they would have been making a blanket statement of what isn't there. Said person didn't do that, but you did, making your argument a little silly indeed.

futuretiger9

11th June 2007, 22:30

Anyone remember Stephane Sarrazin's brief foray into F1? Ok, maybe not world champion material, but could have been a handy guy for a team like Prost or Minardi.

Marc Gene had a good start, but look rather flat in 2004 I remember. Still, had talent (a smart bloke too).

I remember Sarrazin's amazing crash and spin at Interlagos! Seriously, he did seem to have the makings of a GP driver.

BeansBeansBeans

11th June 2007, 22:40

I've seen you post some crap before but you've taken it to heights I never thought possible :rolleyes:

I think Garry speaks some sense. Don't get me wrong, Senna and Villeneuve are my two greatest heroes, but it's interesting how people erase their bad points from memory. Particularly in the case of Senna.

jens

11th June 2007, 22:41

Sarrazin qualified 18th for the Brazilian Grand Prix in a Minardi, also outqualifying team-mate Gene there. Sarrazin also did pretty well in F3000. So I think he could have deserved more chances in F1. But as the competition is so tight and there are clearly more drivers, who deserve to be in F1 than those, who actually are there, then alas all the talents can't get a proper chance. And Stephane happened to be in the latter group.

ShiftingGears

12th June 2007, 08:05

Very sadly, for you, you are mistaken.

Bellof didnt particulary shine against Brundle in equal cars, and people need to wake up to reality in regards to Monaco 84. It was so wet, that the fact that Tyrrell didnt have Turbo, actually started giving them an advantage. Added to that, that car was illegal, so its was pure cheating. And in addition to that, he actually wasnt gaining on Senna most of the time.

Senna only just beat Brundle in the British F3 championship the year before, in more or less equal cars (I am assuming that they are very close to equal) so how you could say with such certainty that Bellof would not have been as good as Prost or Senna with such certainty?

Cozzie

12th June 2007, 08:55

Very sadly, for you, you are mistaken.

Bellof didnt particulary shine against Brundle in equal cars, and people need to wake up to reality in regards to Monaco 84. It was so wet, that the fact that Tyrrell didnt have Turbo, actually started giving them an advantage. Added to that, that car was illegal, so its was pure cheating. And in addition to that, he actually wasnt gaining on Senna most of the time.

The reason Bellof is so highly regarded, despite the fact he did pretty much nothing in F1, comes down to one thing - his death on racetrack. Just as was the case with Gilles Villeneuve and probably Senna too, their deaths have made people forget many things and start hyping them. That is undeniable nostalgia.

Not that Bellof wasnt a good driver. He was. But he was nowhere near the quality of Senna or Prost and never would have amounted to anything near that.

Very well put. :)

ArrowsFA1

12th June 2007, 13:16

Not that Bellof wasnt a good driver. He was. But he was nowhere near the quality of Senna or Prost and never would have amounted to anything near that.
I don't think that 22 GP's for the declining Tyrrell team enables us to be as sure of Bellof's future career as you appear to be.

For one thing his performance in the '84 Monaco GP should not readily be dismissed, as he almost matched that kind of performance with 4th in Detroit the following year in different, but equally difficult, conditions. Having said that, Brundle was ahead until Alliot took him out of the race.

Bellof's death, and the passing of time, should not diminsh the potential he showed.

More about Stefan Bellof here - http://www.stefanbellof.de/

akv89

12th June 2007, 23:12

What about Elio De Angelis? I never saw him race myself and am wondering what other think of him. Here are some statistics comparing him and his teammates through all the full seasons in which he has raced (1979-1985)
1979 Team Shadow
De Angelis: 16th position (3 pts)
Jan Lammers: last place (0 pts)

1980 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 7th position (13 pts, 1 podium )
Mario Andretti: 20th position (1pt)

1981 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 8th position (14 pts)
Nigel Mansell: 14th position (8 pts, 1 podium)

1982 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 9th position (23 pts, 1 win)
Nigel Mansell: 14th position (7 pts, 1 podium)

1983 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 18th position (2pts)
Nigel Mansell: 13th position (10 pts, 1 podium)

1984 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 3rd position (34 pts, 4 podiums)
Nigel Mansell: 10th position (13 pts, 2 podiums)

1985 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 5th position (33 pts, 1 win, 3 podiums)
Ayrton Senna: 4th position (38 pts, 2 wins, 6 podiums)

As shown, De Angelis was faced with championship material drivers in 6 of the 7 full seasons in which he raced and managed to beat them in 4 times out of 6. He almost matched Senna in points in 1985 as well. Like many other possible talents, he too died in an F1 race in 1986 before ever having a chance at driving a car that can regularly challenge for wins or podiums.

ShiftingGears

13th June 2007, 10:08

ArrowsFA1

14th June 2007, 08:35

To be fair Elio did get his break and had the opportunity to show his ability, which he certainly did alongside the likes of Andretti, Mansell & Senna.

One of his team-mates, Jan Lammers, could perhaps be considered as someone who didn't really get a break in F1. His 4th place on the grid at Long Beach in 1980 gave a hint of what he was capable of, but a rumoured Ferrari drive in '82 was scuppered (IIRC) because he had an injury at a crucial time and he never got anywhere near a competitive car.

Ranger

15th June 2007, 07:27

To be fair Elio did get his break

Though not the one he deserved, considering how many years he beat Mansell in Lotus.

ArrowsFA1

15th June 2007, 08:38

There's this view of Mansell's time at Lotus that he was favoured by Chapman (despite his comment about Nige that "We've got this bloody whining noise coming from the car.... but it doesn't stop when you turn the engine off"), although after Chapman's death Peter Warr was no fan of the Brit ("Mansell will never win a grand prix as long as there is a hole in my a**e").

Once Mansell headed off for Williams Elio was then faced with Senna, but was far from disgraced against him either, so yes, there's a strong argument to say de Angelis deserved more.

Garry Walker

15th June 2007, 09:10

I've seen you post some crap before but you've taken it to heights I never thought possible :rolleyes: Thats a quality reply, you really embarrased me there and dismantled my post :rotflmao: :rolleyes:

My point is that after 1.5 Formula One seasons in an underpowered Tyrell and potential shown during that time, you cannot possibly prove that he would or would not have amounted to someone like Senna or Prost.
We can compare his results to those of his teammate and he wasnt doing much better than Brundle. Brundle never amounted to much in his F1 career. That, btw, is a fact. Now make your own conclusions based on the facts I gave you.

I can guarantee you nobody would have thought Prost would score nearly twice as many wins as Jackie Stewart or Jim Clark and more Championships than both of them after 1.5 years into his F1 career. Senna's case may have been a little different, but I wouldn't know about the hype around Senna at the time as his debut was 6 years before I was born.
Considering you werent even born when Prost and Senna started driving, how would you know? Both Prost and Senna shone far more against their respective teammates at the beginning of their F1 careers. While it is true that in Sennas case, his teammate was weaker than Brundle, his performances were very impressive. Prost, though, was faced with a teammate who was superior to that of Brundle.
No one in F1 was as impressed with Bellof, as they were with Senna back in 84. They only started saying "oh, bellof, that guy would have won for sure" when he had his unfortunate fatal crash.

As Bellof's career is an unknown or unfinished quantity, it is something you can only question or ponder, which is exactly what the person you quoted in this thread was doing. The fact is that you cannot possibly prove or disprove speculation of the unknown. The person you quoted would have seemed silly IF they had said that Bellof WOULD have been a great, because they would have been making a blanket statement of what isn't there. Said person didn't do that, but you did, making your argument a little silly indeed.
There is nothing that indicates Bellof could have gone on to be as successful as Senna or Prost. Going by the same piece of logic, I could say "Yoong could have gone on to be as successful as Schumi, had you given him a Ferrari seat", but there is nothing at all to indicate that would have been the case. The same is the case with Bellof, or do we need to hype every driver who has died on the racetrack as "oh, he could have gone to win many titles" :rolleyes:

I think Garry speaks some sense. Don't get me wrong, Senna and Villeneuve are my two greatest heroes, but it's interesting how people erase their bad points from memory. Particularly in the case of Senna.

Indeed. Funny how JFK was the best president and Princess Diana became such a legend after her death. There are countless examples. If you are good at your chosen field, but want to become a legend, then all you have to do is make sure you die young and the public hears about it.

Senna only just beat Brundle in the British F3 championship the year before, in more or less equal cars (I am assuming that they are very close to equal) so how you could say with such certainty that Bellof would not have been as good as Prost or Senna with such certainty?

Senna was dominating The British F3 series totally, then lost his form after half a season. He was clearly superior to Brundle.
Besides that, you cant compare it like this. As F3 drivers, they could have been near equal. But when they came to F1, it was very obvious to everyone that Senna was by far the better and faster driver. Remember, some drivers are good in lesser series (take Liuzzi and Trulli - both super go-kart drivers, but not so super anymore when it comes to F1), but cant manage it in F1. There are cases of the opposite being true too. Take JV for example. He wasnt that brilliant in lower series, till he reached Indycar (grealty due to his name for sure) and then did pretty well there. Even with the Great Schumi, no one could have predicted he would go on to become the best and most successful driver ever based on his appearances in lesser series.

I don't think that 22 GP's for the declining Tyrrell team enables us to be as sure of Bellof's future career as you appear to be.

For one thing his performance in the '84 Monaco GP should not readily be dismissed, as he almost matched that kind of performance with 4th in Detroit the following year in different, but equally difficult, conditions. Having said that, Brundle was ahead until Alliot took him out of the race.

Bellof's death, and the passing of time, should not diminsh the potential he showed.

More about Stefan Bellof here - http://www.stefanbellof.de/ You mean the Detroit race in 85 where Brundle outqualified him by over 0,3 seconds and where in the race, most of the big names had car problems causing them to retire? How often did it happen to someone like Senna that a driver without any victories in a long F1 career, outqualified him so clearly?

The fact is - You can only be directly compared to your teammate. Bellof should have, if he wanted to go on to be as successful as Senna and Prost, destroyed Brundle, but he didnt. I suspect that is the reason why the teambosses of Big teams hired Senna and werent interested in Bellof. Obviously, after Bellof died, everyone lost their minds and Bellof suddenly became an alltime great, potential bestever :rolleyes: .

There's this view of Mansell's time at Lotus that he was favoured by Chapman (despite his comment about Nige that "We've got this bloody whining noise coming from the car.... but it doesn't stop when you turn the engine off"), although after Chapman's death Peter Warr was no fan of the Brit ("Mansell will never win a grand prix as long as there is a hole in my a**e").

Once Mansell headed off for Williams Elio was then faced with Senna, but was far from disgraced against him either, so yes, there's a strong argument to say de Angelis deserved more.

Mansell is the biggest crybaby of alltimes in F1. He had problems in pretty much every race of his career, at least according to him. Hell, even that FW14B in 1992 was a damn horrible car and had big issues every race. It is no surprise he would complain about getting mistreated, it wouldnt be the first time in his career.

ArrowsFA1

15th June 2007, 11:46

There is nothing that indicates Bellof could have gone on to be as successful as Senna or Prost. Going by the same piece of logic, I could say "Yoong could have gone on to be as successful as Schumi, had you given him a Ferrari seat", but there is nothing at all to indicate that would have been the case.
You simply cannot compare the likes of Yoong with Bellof unless, that is, the mere fact that they both reached F1 is your argument. In which case, yes, they had the same potential because they both got there.

I take your point about death making a legend out of someone, but death robs us of potential being realised. It doesn't mean that potential was never there.

ShiftingGears

16th June 2007, 01:14

"We've got this bloody whining noise coming from the car.... but it doesn't stop when you turn the engine off")

LOL

Ranger

16th June 2007, 01:41

Of the three teams who claimed to sign Jean Alesi for 1991, it would have been most interesting if Jean had signed for Williams instead of Ferrari. Of course, he didn't match Prost in Ferrari in 1991, but then again nor did Mansell the year before, who was champion of 1992. Perhaps the same fate could have been for Jean Alesi, who was in his 20's at the time as opposed to the 38 year old Mansell. A case of huge potential never being realised.

Ranger

16th June 2007, 02:11

Considering you werent even born when Prost and Senna started driving, how would you know? Both Prost and Senna shone far more against their respective teammates at the beginning of their F1 careers. While it is true that in Sennas case, his teammate was weaker than Brundle, his performances were very impressive. Prost, though, was faced with a teammate who was superior to that of Brundle.
Prost was also outscored 8-7 in his debut season against someone who was decent, but not outstandingly special it must be said, based on statistics and team-mate comparisons. From that outlook, 51 wins mustn't have looked too likely. Prost did very good, of course, but you can't determine future success from 1 season in F1.

No one in F1 was as impressed with Bellof, as they were with Senna back in 84. They only started saying "oh, bellof, that guy would have won for sure" when he had his unfortunate fatal crash. No one has said "WOULD have won" in this thread, as far as I can see. He could have acheived much more, as could any sportsman who has had their career cut short, like Wayne Rainey for example.

There is nothing that indicates Bellof could have gone on to be as successful as Senna or Prost. Going by the same piece of logic, I could say "Yoong could have gone on to be as successful as Schumi, had you given him a Ferrari seat", but there is nothing at all to indicate that would have been the case. The same is the case with Bellof, or do we need to hype every driver who has died on the racetrack as "oh, he could have gone to win many titles" :rolleyes:
I don't know about everyone else, but I for one don't think he could have matched Prost or Senna, but he could have been a very successful driver nonetheless. But I don't tell people what isn't there.

Garry Walker

16th June 2007, 12:34

You simply cannot compare the likes of Yoong with Bellof unless, that is, the mere fact that they both reached F1 is your argument. In which case, yes, they had the same potential because they both got there.

I take your point about death making a legend out of someone, but death robs us of potential being realised. It doesn't mean that potential was never there.

Yoong never could realize his potential either - almost no testing, no resources in the Minardi. He would have been by far better if he had been given an opportunity to enjoy a full-functional team, not a monkey one. Considering the eras, Bellof probably actually enjoyed better opportunity than AY. Neither could ever realize their full potential, for different reasons, but in the time they had, they didnt impress enough to deserve to get mentioned in the same sentence as drivers like Schumi, Senna and Prost.

Prost was also outscored 8-7 in his debut season against someone who was decent, but not outstandingly special it must be said, based on statistics and team-mate comparisons. From that outlook, 51 wins mustn't have looked too likely. Prost did very good, of course, but you can't determine future success from 1 season in F1.

It was actually 5:6. Prost missed one race aswell, but what you arent understanding is that he was straight from the box clearly quicker than Watson. Watson was a driver who achieved far more in his career than Bellofs respective teammate (Brundle) managed.

No one has said "WOULD have won" in this thread, as far as I can see. He could have acheived much more, as could any sportsman who has had their career cut short, like Wayne Rainey for example.

And where did I claim people in this thread said that?

yeah, Im sure Bellof would have achieved more, maybe a few podiums, but thats it. He showed NO SIGNS of actually being a potential world champion.

I don't know about everyone else, but I for one don't think he could have matched Prost or Senna, but he could have been a very successful driver nonetheless. But I don't tell people what isn't there. Tell that to the poster who originally made the ludicrous claim that he could have gone on to be as successful as Senna and Prost, when there is no evidence, nothing at all to indicate that.Talk about telling people what isnt there. Only someones emotions talking, because a driver was killed on racetrack and once with a cheating non-turbo car was doing well in the rain.

FIA

16th June 2007, 13:07

These are who I think were Underrtaed.:-
Pierluigi Martini: Superb at Minardi, deserved a Ferrari seat.
Jos Verstappen: Could have been a contender for the championship.
Stefano Modena: Realiable midfield driver.
Pedro De La Rosa: Seen Some great drives for Arrows and McLaren.

Garry Walker

16th June 2007, 13:56

Jos Verstappen: Could have been a contender for the championship.
.
please tell me you are joking. He wouldnt have won the championship even if he was driving the current McLaren and everyone else had Toyotas.

jens

16th June 2007, 14:59

SteveMcQueen

16th June 2007, 19:25

There is nothing that indicates Bellof could have gone on to be as successful as Senna or Prost. Going by the same piece of logic, I could say "Yoong could have gone on to be as successful as Schumi, had you given him a Ferrari seat", but there is nothing at all to indicate that would have been the case.

You may be looking purely at his short F1 career.

Bellof dominated Sportscar Racing in the Porsche 956, regularly beat one of the best drivers ever in Jackie Ickx and became Worldchampion. Plus he is the one who nailed the fastest time ever recorded at the Nürburgring Nordschleife. These are some indications of pure speed that can not be ignored.

futuretiger9

16th June 2007, 19:28

Bellof seemed to possess the necessary raw material, but rarely got the opportunity to display it in F1. His displays in sportscars and F2 only hinted at what he may have achieved.

ArrowsFA1

17th June 2007, 20:50

Yoong never could realize his potential either...
It seems the mere fact that they both reached F1 is your argument after all.

Garry Walker

18th June 2007, 13:47

You may be looking purely at his short F1 career.

Bellof dominated Sportscar Racing in the Porsche 956, regularly beat one of the best drivers ever in Jackie Ickx and became Worldchampion. Plus he is the one who nailed the fastest time ever recorded at the Nürburgring Nordschleife. These are some indications of pure speed that can not be ignored.

Bellof was mighty in sportscars, but I would say that the level of driving in sportscars is quite much weaker than the one displayed in F1. Added to that, some drivers naturally suit sportscars much more than open-wheelers. I reckon that is the case with Bellof too. When he beat Jacky Ickx, Ickx was already nearing 40, so naturally his abilities were decreasing whilst Bellof was in his prime. Dont derive from his achievements in sportscars, that he would have gone on to do big things in F1. You simply cant compare those 2 like that.

How many F1 drivers have tried the Nordschleife with serious cars? So his record, whilst impressive, doesnt show it all.

It seems the mere fact that they both reached F1 is your argument after all.
No. I dont see the relevance your statement in the context.

ArrowsFA1

18th June 2007, 14:14

The point is that Yoong never showed anything like the level of potential we saw in Bellof. The level of each of their ability is as far apart as their names in a phone book.

Now that's not to say Bellof would have been a multiple GP winner or champion, but he was highly regarded by many. Then again, so was Stefano Modena and where did he go wrong?

Garry Walker

27th June 2007, 12:17

The point is that Yoong never showed anything like the level of potential we saw in Bellof. The level of each of their ability is as far apart as their names in a phone book.

He never had the chance to show it. Its taking drivers like Kimi 10K KM to start liking the car, Yoong pretty much never got to test at all.
Maybe he was like Mansell, who needed time? Remember, Mansell was the guy who didnt really ever outperform his teammates for much of his career. Especially at the beginning of it.

Now that's not to say Bellof would have been a multiple GP winner or champion, but he was highly regarded by many.
He was. But there is no need to make such statements that he could have equalled Senna or Prost, without their being any hint of proof of that.

27th June 2007, 21:59

I suspect that is the reason why the teambosses of Big teams hired Senna and werent interested in Bellof.

Actually, Ferrari were interested in signing Bellof, but had Alboreto and Arnoux under contract for the 85 season. When Ferrari sacked Rene after Rio, Tyrell wouldn't let Bellof go (partly because his impending Renault engine deal depended on Bellof being one of the drivers) so Johansson got the seat.

ArrowsFA1

28th June 2007, 11:30

Actually, Ferrari were interested in signing Bellof, but had Alboreto and Arnoux under contract for the 85 season. When Ferrari sacked Rene after Rio, Tyrell wouldn't let Bellof go...
According to this profile (http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-belste.html):

Tyrrell exercised its option on Bellof for 1985 but there was by then discord in the relationship as Bellof and his manager Willy Maurer argued that Tyrrell had broken the original contract by not competing in the final three races of 1984 (the team had been banned by the FIA as part of the fight between the team and the federation over Tyrrell's refusal to agree to a ban on normally-aspirated engines) and wanted a one-year deal so that the German youngster would be on the market for 1986. As a result he was suspended by Tyrrell in Brazil
Johansson, who had taken Bellof's place in Brazil, stepped in at Ferrari when Arnoux was sacked. While the Tyrrell contract may have prevented Bellof joining Ferrrai in '85, it seems a move to Maranello in 1986 would have been likely.

N. Jones

28th June 2007, 21:44

Verstappen's "problem" was that he was inconsistent (and several current drivers are also described with the same word), but he definetely had the raw speed and was one of the best drivers in wet conditions. I have always thought he deserved another chance in a top team after Benetton '94, where a mix of inexperience, unluck and favouring of MS resulted in disappointing performances.
Could that also be said for Mika Salo? I've read that he was highly rated coming in to F1 (mostly due to his battles with Mika Hakkinen) but I don't think he did very much.

What about DC? Would he be considered in this case because he was playing 2nd fiddle to Hakkinen? Or would it be that in his case it was the decisions he made?