More Problems for Toyota

[truefan72]

Well, it seems like Toyota's front suspension set up is failing dramatically.
From what some of my sources are telling me, there's a 30% chance they might not field a car for Sunday's race.

This would be a death nail to management and Toyota 2007 campaign.
Might as well blow up the whole project and look forward to the 2008 year.

It seems that their problems extend far beyond poor management, and underperforming drivers, now they add a serious miscalculation in their suspension set up which reeks of poor mechanical oversight and judgment.

As I have said before, the car itself (without this latest incident) is fairly fast and on a good day should be competing for pos 4-8. But horrendous decisions (under-inflating their tires, poor suspension set up, race strategy, drivers) have undermined this car severely.

I promise you, if you brought in a top Race Director and team manger, top drivers and minimize their foolish blunders, this Team would be winning races by now.

Their overall racing strategy needs overhauling. They can't get it right in NASCAR either, so there seems to be an overall misguided approach to racing by Toyota

Just so frustrating to see things (and all that money) go to waste. I’ve always wished this team well, but have just had about enough of these useless problems.

[blakebeatty]

The fact that Jarno said, on the radio to the team, that they should remove Schumacher's car as well as his own from the track ASAP due to the danger speaks volumes of how dire this situation is for Toyota...

[Valve Bounce]

OMIGID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

[Ranger]

The problem with Toyota is that they can't simply just replace everyone in the team, because then the whole team would be even more misguided. They have to identify where the problems are (hard when there are problems left, right and centre) and work on fixing them.

The great shame in all this is indeed that there is so much money going to waste, and a greater shame that 2 years ago they even scored a handful of podiums.

[Valve Bounce]

Here's what the team had to say. Reading between the lines, it would appear they are in deep trouble as the front uprights are involved and there are no replacements.

[blakebeatty]

Matchett seemed to think that they would have to fabricate new parts in Cologne, and then private jet them to montreal over the night, hopefull in time for qualifying. seems like a tall order, and an expensive proposition.

[Valve Bounce]

I am surprised that Toyota's chief Engineer says the problem occurred because of hte track at Montreal, and that they had no problems with it elsewhere. How can this be? Is the track at Montreal so much bumpier, or what?

Can somebody familiar with this track surface and/or characteristics give us some clues on this please.

[N. Jones]

Yeah - that track isn't suited for the brittle Toyota chassis. I can't see that its all the nasty track's fault! :)

[call_me_andrew]

Too bad this isn't happening at Indy again. They could have blamed the tires and banking and ruined the race for everyone.

[pino]

Toyota should either sign some clever engeneers or quit F1, right now they are only wasting money...Damn the day Jarno signed for them :mad:

[truefan72]

there is no excuse for not being prepared for the race. This isn't their maiden race in Montreal. They should have known that their current set up was ill equipped for the race and brough in a special set up for Canada.

Just absolutely mind boggling that nobody even though or suspected that their might be an issue. Then again, if a lower engineer did raise his suspicions, where they listened to? and was the decison not to run a specific set up for Canada dictated by the board/upper management /accountants?

Complete disfunction over at Toyota... Just let me run the team for a month.

1. Schumi - out
2. Bourdais in

3. Effective immediately, all decisions related to the F1 team run through me (team principle/Race Director) No board members, or other company influences may interfere with the day-day operations.

4. Go an an aggressive campaign to hire Ross Brawn.
5. Pay M. Schumacher a decent sum as Technical advisor

6. Change the stupid Front suspension set up to a more suitable configuration
7. Adjust the brake bias commiserative to the Bridgestone set up.

8. Challenge all the engineers and mechanics to do their best and find a 5% performance improvement over the next month and a half ( even if they don't the efforts will lead to some positive outcome)

[aryan]

I promise you, if you brought in a top Race Director and team manger, top drivers and minimize their foolish blunders, this Team would be winning races by now.


I promise you, ANY TEAM will win if they bring a top race director, team manager and drivers and minimise their mistakes. :)

[Garry Walker]

there is no excuse for not being prepared for the race. This isn't their maiden race in Montreal. They should have known that their current set up was ill equipped for the race and brough in a special set up for Canada.

Just absolutely mind boggling that nobody even though or suspected that their might be an issue. Then again, if a lower engineer did raise his suspicions, where they listened to? and was the decison not to run a specific set up for Canada dictated by the board/upper management /accountants?

Complete disfunction over at Toyota... Just let me run the team for a month.

1. Schumi - out
2. Bourdais in

3. Effective immediately, all decisions related to the F1 team run through me (team principle/Race Director) No board members, or other company influences may interfere with the day-day operations.

4. Go an an aggressive campaign to hire Ross Brawn.
5. Pay M. Schumacher a decent sum as Technical advisor

6. Change the stupid Front suspension set up to a more suitable configuration
7. Adjust the brake bias commiserative to the Bridgestone set up.

8. Challenge all the engineers and mechanics to do their best and find a 5% performance improvement over the next month and a half ( even if they don't the efforts will lead to some positive outcome)

I love it how all internet yahoos-nobodies claim they know how to make the team better, IN 1 MONTH. Why dont you send your CV to Toyota and tell them that you are really far more qualified than your current job as a taxi-driver shows?

Did you know the in F1 components are designed on the limit? Sometimes they overstep the limit when trying to find a few thousand of a seconds. Sure, Toyota has messed up and messed up bigtime here. But so has every other team at times.

[jens]

Just let me run the team for a month.


:p :
I don't think it is that easy as is looks. I guess that Toyota management even itself doesn't know exactly, what the problem is (otherwise they would have done something) - and if they don't, then how do others, who even don't work in the team?

Btw, in defence of Toyota's NASCAR programme - it's their first season there and recently their form has been getting better.

But I guess that the biggest surprise about Toyota is that they haven't hired any so-called top specialists. Remember pre-2002 situation. Top teams feared that they are going to run out of engineers just because Toyota pays them over. Incredibly this hasn't happened. They only hired Gascoyne, but didn't keep him long either. Toyota decided to start their F1 campaign mainly with the same team they used in WRC programme. They have believed that they can do well in F1 without the help of "others" - without those, who have experience and are well-known specialists. The idea of "learning on their own" might be enticing, but the problem is that they don't have an experienced supervisor, who can lead them in the right direction. Alas this is the Japanese mentality in F1 - they want to do everything on their own. If in the last seasons Japanese manufacturers have shown at least some promise, then this season has been a very harsh reality for them.

[Ian McC]

Just let me run it for a month, I would get sacked but at least I probably wont need to work again for the rest of the year :D

[jens]

Trulli hit the kerbs pretty hard in quali. :eek: I wonder, how long will the suspension last in the race. :p :

At night 2006-spec suspension was sent from Cologne to Montreal, so maybe that convinced them to participate in the race. But it's quite clear that the whole mess has affected their performance at Montreal. Considering the problems I guess that Trulli getting into Top10 is a decent achievement.

[trumperZ06]

:D Toyota seems to have recovered from Friday's mechnical problem with the front suspension. Team orders to both drivers were to stay off the curbs.

;) Pino's personal favorite driver ( I think he's Italian)...

Jarno Trulli qualified a very respectful 10th.

For the Schuey fans... Ralfie didn't fare as well, placing a very distant 18th...

[pino]

Considering the problems I guess that Trulli getting into Top10 is a decent achievement.

A decent achievement ? I would say amazing performance...you got to have big balls to go that fast on that car :crazy: ;)

[AndyRAC]

What a joke Toyota are, why don't they eat humble pie, admit they're rubbish, and go back to what they made their name in, i;e WRC. Don't know why they even left in the first place.

[Zico]

What a joke Toyota are, why don't they eat humble pie, admit they're rubbish, and go back to what they made their name in, i;e WRC. Don't know why they even left in the first place.

Cos they couldnt win without cheating.. ;)

[AndyRAC]

Cos they couldnt win without cheating.. ;)

Oooh harsh!! But yes they were found guilty, though the management didn't know anything about it. TTE were banned, not Toyota, as I seem to remember Kankkunen in the Celica coming 2nd on 1,000 Lakes.

Think they only entered F1 to try and compete with Honda, why? Honda have years of experience in the sport, Toyota none, still say they should have stayed were they belong.

[aryan]

All credit to Jarno. Qualifying P10 on 3 wheels should have been hard... ;)

[Zico]

TTE were banned, not Toyota, as I seem to remember Kankkunen in the Celica coming 2nd on 1,000 Lakes.


TTE are Toyota... TTE did not claim the device was legal but was represented by lawyers who entered a plea in mitigation. Mosley went on to say that the points Toyota and their drivers, Juha Kankkunen, Didier Auriol and Armin Schwarz had gained in 1995 would simply be taken away but others would not move up to fill the gaps.

The team would also be banned from contesting the 1995 Network Q RAC Rally and the 1996 World Rally Championship. He also stated that the FIA would not allow the team to get around the restrictions by entering under another guise and went on to say that there was however, nothing to suggest that the drivers were aware of anything going on.

According to Toyota the device had been devised at a "certain level" and the management knew nothing about it. The FIA dismissed this claim, saying that as a team they were responsible for all their actions.

[AndyRAC]

TTE were banned, but Toyota the manufacturer were in fact not banned. I remember an interview with Moseley (on Top Gear Motorsport Nov 1995), and it was TTE who were guilty. If I remember the following year the Celicas were run by Grifone and Toyota Team Sweden, so they did get round it.

[Zico]

Ah.. I see, wasnt aware of that. Cheers.

[Valve Bounce]

A decent achievement ? I would say amazing performance...you got to have big balls to go that fast on that car :crazy: ;)


Now wait a minute - what's this with the big balls? Surely that causes wind turbulance and extra drag, don't they? :p :

[pino]

I think Toyota should leave F1 and join WRC again, that will be the best solution for everybody ;) Jarno ? with his great talent...won't be too difficult for him to find another seat :p :

[truefan72]

I love it how all internet yahoos-nobodies claim they know how to make the team better, IN 1 MONTH. Why dont you send your CV to Toyota and tell them that you are really far more qualified than your current job as a taxi-driver shows?

Did you know the in F1 components are designed on the limit? Sometimes they overstep the limit when trying to find a few thousand of a seconds. Sure, Toyota has messed up and messed up bigtime here. But so has every other team at times.

first of all, callin me an internet- yahoo nobody is rich coming from the likes of you. Garry " the hater" Walker.

Unlike your prebubescant view on things, I ACTUALLY HAVE HAD YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN F1, and choose to come on this forum for the excellent banter and exchange of ideas. Even now, a few years removed from inside FI, I can detect and denote clear problems to a team of Toyota's capacity.

What I laid out is merely my short-term approach to solving their immediate problems. Your response to my points is a pedestrian argument that even my twice stroked-grandfather can make.
" Toyota has messed up and messed up bigtime here. But so has every other team at times"
-sounds more like a lame excuse than an attempt to suggest solutions.

Unless you actually have something of value to say, I suggest you stick to flaming drivers with irrational thoughts and sans-reason.

I am not sure where you got the taxi driver thing from; perhaps that's your lot in life. As for me, I'm quite comfortable in my Triberca loft, with a CV that allows me to do consulting for a number of racing operations.

go back to making amatuer remarks and leave the big boy posts to those with a sense to contribute to the discussion.

'nuff said...

[truefan72]

:p :
I don't think it is that easy as is looks. I guess that Toyota management even itself doesn't know exactly, what the problem is (otherwise they would have done something) - and if they don't, then how do others, who even don't work in the team?

Btw, in defence of Toyota's NASCAR programme - it's their first season there and recently their form has been getting better.

But I guess that the biggest surprise about Toyota is that they haven't hired any so-called top specialists. Remember pre-2002 situation. Top teams feared that they are going to run out of engineers just because Toyota pays them over. Incredibly this hasn't happened. They only hired Gascoyne, but didn't keep him long either. Toyota decided to start their F1 campaign mainly with the same team they used in WRC programme. They have believed that they can do well in F1 without the help of "others" - without those, who have experience and are well-known specialists. The idea of "learning on their own" might be enticing, but the problem is that they don't have an experienced supervisor, who can lead them in the right direction. Alas this is the Japanese mentality in F1 - they want to do everything on their own. If in the last seasons Japanese manufacturers have shown at least some promise, then this season has been a very harsh reality for them.

thats right and I was artfully trying to avoid the Japanes mentallity thing. But, yes, in my experience, until they concede to the notion that others may have experience and an organization system that might be better suited to the sports needs than theirs, they will keep running into these preverbial glass ceilings of performance and ingenuity. Both the Honda program of the early 90's and more extensively in the 2 wheel series, have now intergrated a more non-japanese methods of operation, while still maintaining those strong core japanese principles that were/are effective.

Obviously I wasn't expecting to turn the team around in one month, but to change the course of their F1 operation.

Thanks for the insightful comments

[truefan72]

Jarno's p-10 achievement was more special than a mere 10th place run. With defective machinery, asked not to use the curbs ( he did on some chicanes) and the overall pressure of an entire team's weekend's fortunes resting on his shoulders,...amazing.

I was told that if both drivers didn't make it out of Quali 1 that they were going to scrap their race and focus on indy. I also here that Schumi may be out after Indy. But i think that was more rumor than fact.

[jens]

Canadian race was a clear example of Toyota's uselessness at the moment. Both Jarno and Ralf blocked everyone, whenever the race got restarted. Yes, the whole grid was faster... (except the Spykers)

If in the past seasons Toyota has given at least some hope and promise, then now finally I have to admit that they are in hopeless situation.
In 2002 although they finished last in the WCC, then I guess you agree that they showed a lot of promise, qualifying often into Top10 and fighting near point positions.
2003 started poorly, but they were gradually getting better and at the end of the season they even interrupted top teams a bit. I think Toyota had 5th fastest car that year, but (un)reliability and poor strategies put them down to 8th. But with newly-signed Gascoyne future looked promising.
2004 - a lot more was expected, but with two newly-signed drivers and Gascoyne-built cars for 2005 the future looked still promising.
2005 - this was the time, when I believed that in few years' time Toyota would start challening for the titles - what a nice dream it was...
2006 - a huge downfall, but promising pace in the second half of the season (mainly poor reliability put them down to 6th in the WCC) plus first year with B-stones tyres and V8-engines - it looked like everything might still not be lost.
But in 2007 it's clear that there is no light at the end of the tunnel. They seem to be a team without future.

What did Toyota have in 2005 that they don't have now? Does one Gascoyne really make such difference? And if yes, then how good would Toyota be this year with Gascoyne-built cars? How many Toyota mechanics are needed to change a lightbulb?

[Valve Bounce]

Well, they are being beaten by a couple of second hand Hondas - how bad can it get?

[VkmSpouge]

It also must be pretty embarrassing for Toyota to have less than half the points of their customer team at this stage of the season.

[pino]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59679

[Mickey T]

ralf never had jarno's suspension problems, probably because he never put a wheel anywhere near an apex all weekend.

clearly, running off the road and onto the grass is easier on toyota suspensions than actually staying on the road and doing what you are supposed to do...

[jens]

More bad news for Toyota:

JUNE 10, 2007
Toyota loses veteran engineer

Liam Flanagan, the head of chassis production at Panasonic Toyota Racing, has been drowned in a swimming accident while he was on holiday in Turkey. Flanagan had been with the Toyota team for more than 25 years, starting out with Ove Andersson's team in rallying.

Source: GrandPrix.com

Actually I have started to think that maybe it's better if Toyota as an independent team really leaves F1. :rolleyes: It's better to watch F1 without them than to witness their endless disappointing performances. When Trulli joined Toyota in 2004, then I thought that it was a good career choice in a team that has a lot of potential and even last year, when he extended his contract, Toyota was on a rise at that moment and I thought maybe he'll score another win one day. Now I wonder whether he'll ever finish on podium again?! :( After 2005 Spanish GP I couldn't have even imagined that this might be his last podium in F1 - at that time I thought that race wins are around the corner.

Toyota concentrating on Williams and Trulli joining Williams would have several pros:
1) Toyota can accomplish themselves in F1 and achieve something at least in some way - as an engine manufacturer.
2) I can continue cheering for Trulli, who is driving in a competitive team.

But instead of that it looks like I've to put up with the current stuff for at least more than 2,5 years. :s

[ArrowsFA1]

Toyota's fortunes in 2007 hardly look bright according to Ralf's comments:

"It's been a difficult year but we have made some progress and it's only mid-season. I'm sure that we'll be stronger towards the end of the season."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60910

6th in the WCC behind their customer team, and only one of their drivers scraping into the top 10 of the WDC, is a little more than "difficult".

[tinchote]

6th in the WCC behind their customer team, and only one of their drivers scraping into the top 10 of the WDC, is a little more than "difficult".

Just think about the Toyota PR people trying to do their job. They have to invite big fishes to watch the race, what do you tell them? ;) :D

[markabilly]

I promise you, ANY TEAM will win if they bring a top race director, team manager and drivers and minimise their mistakes. :)
Just needs some great stuuf, to the point any good driver is enuff... just put LH in a rebull see hwo hard he will not go, and peole soon would be saying gge sackem

[ioan]

Just think about the Toyota PR people trying to do their job. They have to invite big fishes to watch the race, what do you tell them? ;) :D

Follow the red cars! :D

[tinchote]

Follow the red cars! :D

:D

[pino]

...They have to invite big fishes to watch the race, what do you tell them? ;) :D

Have a glass of Jarno delicious wine :p :

[pino]

Anyway both drivers are positive before the race, let's see how it will ends this time :s :p :

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61006

[jens]

Toyota's wet weather strategy has always been bull**** and this trend is of course continuing without any sign that they have learned anything. They gave Trulli new set of wets just before SC left the track and it started drying. Jarno made damn 6 stops and finished dead last. Ralf could have scored points, but... well yeah.