Ralf Schumacher's career coming to an end sooner than expected?

[Chaparral66]

Hey, you laugh, but JPM heard the same skepticism...

[Garry Walker]

I'll have a read next time I'm in Sainsburys. I'm afraid that F1 Racing has become such a joke that I refuse to pay money for it any more. It used to be a decent enough magazine, nowadays it's just a container into which Bishop and Peter Windsor place their respective egos.

Indeed. Bishop and Windsor are just 2 idiots who claim to be experts, but in reality I could point out probably 50 people with ease in this forum who have a much higher level of understanding F1 than those two jokers.

Bishops latest "article" about Ralf was against the sort of quality that you mostly see written in the 4th grade, but then usually people develop from that.

As for Ralf - superb performance in the race again, but problems with the car ruined the qualifying for him. It is obvious that at the moment Ralf is the clearly best driver out of the Toyota drivers.


Half a second slower than Trulli and out of qualifying after just quarter of an hour. Oh dear, Ralf. Oh dear oh dear.

Obviously the car problems he had are irrelevant? In that case, let me ask you, why was Lewis beaten again by Alonso in this race?


People do bash Ralf to get rid of the frustration that Michael made them feel when he trashed their favorite drivers.
What is absolutely incredible that most of this people have favorite drivers that managed to achieve much less than Ralf in F1!

It only shows the level of bias around here. :)

That is 100% correct. Ralf-bashers are spineless people with lots of venom, but of little intellectual substance. That is why I enjoy mocking and ridiculing them so much.


People criticise Ralf for 1) his inconsistent on-track performancesHe is actually quite a consistant driver, many drivers in F1 are far more inconsistant.


2) his apparent lack of interest, How is he not interested? No one has ever shown me anything to prove he is not interested, will you be able to ..set the precedent :D

and 3) the fact that his salary is that of a multiple-WDC.
No, JV wasnt a multiple champ. Neither is Kimi. Ralf is getting lesser than either of those two were/is. Besides that, you forgot the nr.4 and the most important reason. He is named Schumacher and simply not as good as his brother who was the best ever. So obviously the people filled with venom who couldnt unleash their fury on MS due to his massive success, are doing it on Ralf now.



He has won the same number of races (6) as Tony Brooks, John Surtees, Jochen Rindt, Gilles Villeneuve, Jacques Laffite and Riccardo Patrese did in their careers, and yet his contribution to F1 comes nowhere near any one of those drivers.Yeah, indeed Ralf never has been accused of killing a fellow driver, by his fellow drivers and gotten a race-ban for it.

Besides that, I fail to see what drivers like of such massive quality as Patrese and Laffite provided to F1 that Ralf has not?



The name Schumacher shouldn't allow Ralf to cruise and collect, and it shouldn't protect him from criticism. Unfortunately there are those, including Ralf seemingly, who think it should. So Ralf, while cruising, is still much faster in races than his teammate? Because lets face it, he has been very clearly quicker than Trulli in races.




Ralf's earnings are comparable with Alonso's and yet his performaces don't even come close to what Alonso has achieved, and what he brings to a team as a 2xWDC.


How do you know how much more or less Alonso has contributed to the team compared to Ralf :rolleyes: ? say he has won more races and I will laugh very loudly. I also think that Ralf as a driver is very close to Alonso, especially race-pace wise. Not as good obviously, but pretty close. Remember, Trulli was better than Alonso in 2004 and Ralf has been better than Trulli.

[Flat.tyres]

That is 100% correct. Ralf-bashers are spineless people with lots of venom, but of little intellectual substance. That is why I enjoy mocking and ridiculing them so much.

Carefull with the personal attacks friend as I consider myself to be a Ralf detractor :p : Pino has pointed people for less :D

Actually, I dont give a monkeys what last name he has. he's not performing against a second tier team mate. You will find very few people that consider JT to be top drawer outside of the Moderators enclosure!!


He is actually quite a consistant driver, many drivers in F1 are far more inconsistant.

I have to agree with you there as he averages qualification in 12th place this year and finishes in 11th. Lets use the only benchmark we really can in F1 and that is his team mate who qualifies in 9th and finishes 10th.



So Ralf, while cruising, is still much faster in races than his teammate? Because lets face it, he has been very clearly quicker than Trulli in races.

In the odd race, yes, Ralf is faster but overall, over the whole season and not specific instances which match your opinion, he is qualifying 3 places back on JT and finishing 1 place behind him.

By the way, for the stats, I took out the 4 retirements they each had from the final position results but used all qualification stats to maintain impartiality.

[ArrowsFA1]

That is 100% correct. Ralf-bashers are spineless people with lots of venom, but of little intellectual substance. That is why I enjoy mocking and ridiculing them so much.
Oh dear :laugh:

How is he not interested? No one has ever shown me anything to prove he is not interested, will you be able to ..set the precedent :D
It's an impression formed over the years of watching him in F1. He looks like someone who is not sure why he's a racing driver. Of course, that could be a false impression and may do Ralf an injustice.

He is named Schumacher and simply not as good as his brother who was the best ever. So obviously the people filled with venom who couldnt unleash their fury on MS due to his massive success, are doing it on Ralf now.
Oh dear :laugh:

Yeah, indeed Ralf never has been accused of killing a fellow driver, by his fellow drivers and gotten a race-ban for it.
Frankly that is a cheap comment that only serves to undermine what little there is of your argument.

Besides that, I fail to see what drivers like of such massive quality as Patrese and Laffite provided to F1 that Ralf has not?
Just ask Frank Williams or Patrick Head.

...lets face it, he has been very clearly quicker than Trulli in races...
At times, yes.

[ioan]

Carefull with the personal attacks friend as I consider myself to be a Ralf detractor :p : Pino has pointed people for less :D

Actually, I dont give a monkeys what last name he has. he's not performing against a second tier team mate. You will find very few people that consider JT to be top drawer outside of the Moderators enclosure!!

I have to agree with you there as he averages qualification in 12th place this year and finishes in 11th. Lets use the only benchmark we really can in F1 and that is his team mate who qualifies in 9th and finishes 10th.

In the odd race, yes, Ralf is faster but overall, over the whole season and not specific instances which match your opinion, he is qualifying 3 places back on JT and finishing 1 place behind him.

By the way, for the stats, I took out the 4 retirements they each had from the final position results but used all qualification stats to maintain impartiality.

The season is not over yet, and Ralf beat Jarno 2 seasons in a row already! But that won't suit your biased POV I suppose.

Trulli a good qualifier but not a good racer, he usually goes backwards in positions during a race.
Ralf can occasionally beat Trulli in qualifying and almost allways he outraces him.

Given that F1 is about racing finishes and points scored Ralf is the better one, even if only by a smaller margin.

[ioan]

Oh dear :laugh:

This is how we answer when we know others are right?! :p :

[Flat.tyres]

The season is not over yet, and Ralf beat Jarno 2 seasons in a row already! But that won't suit your biased POV I suppose.

You are quite correct. We are talking about this year though.


Trulli a good qualifier but not a good racer, he usually goes backwards in positions during a race.
Ralf can occasionally beat Trulli in qualifying and almost allways he outraces him.

JT had a bit of a dismal year last year but the year before finished 2 points behind RS even though he suffered 3 times as many DNF's

And this is your benchmark for how great Ralf is. Someone you acknowledge goes backwards in the race :laugh:


Given that F1 is about racing finishes and points scored Ralf is the better one, even if only by a smaller margin.

Over the last 3 years, Ralf has scored 5 points more than JT. That is the facts of the matter.

JT is no Kimi and no Alonso. Hell, Massa looks good beside him.

I would say that Ralf is comparable with RB or someone like that. A good journeyman but no contender and not a patch on his brother for either his good, or his bad points.

[ArrowsFA1]

This is how we answer when we know others are right?! :p :
No ioan. I laugh because it's easy to claim that critics of Ralf are nothing more than "bashers", or that he is criticised simply because of his name. It's so much easier than constructing an opinion or an argument of your own.

[cos]

Ralf out, Glock in?
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19558.html

[Flat.tyres]

Ralf out, Glock in?
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19558.html

Strong rumour but we will see.

Might be a good fit for the team looking to push ahead once more.

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: What-ever one sez about Half... he's never been more than a journeyman driver. He can be very quick... if the car is perfect. But don't expect him to move up the grid with a car that's a bit off.

;) It's almost a Sure Bet that come next year...


We won't have Ralfie around to bash... anymore. :s mokin:

[jens]

Glad to see you back, Garry Walker! :p :

But... Oh dear. The last thing that we needed is that Ralf defenders start bashing Jarno... :(

And the main problem remains to be Toyota. The car is so unreliable and inconsistent, team's work is so incompetent and the decisions are often strange, so I think any driver would be in big trouble in Toyota and he's stock would fall quickly. It's very hard to be totally consistent driving for Toyota. If you have noticed, then both Jarno and Ralf have been more inconsistent in Toyota than they were before joining Toyota thanks to the car that doesn't enable consistent performing. Also people rated them a lot higher before joining Toyota (as much as I remember, then the hirings of RS and JT were quite warmly welcomed back in 2004), but now probably many people think that they are the worst drivers on the grid. :mark: For everyone, who has driven for Toyota F1 team so far, it has been the last team in F1... I think tells a lot about the falling reputation there.

But finally I've decided to put here my JT vs RS comparison that has created some debate:
In 2005 Jarno was IMO more impressive for most of the season and I still can't quite understand, how Ralf managed to score more points by the end.
In 2006, however, I think Ralf drove quite a good season, but wasn't given much credit for that. He had a few off-weekends, but indeed few. Jarno had a hard start, but since Monaco also generally performed well. But I'm not against those, who say that Ralf all in all might have looked slightly more convincing over a full season.

In 2007 I think Jarno has done "okay" (not brilliantly, but "okay") so far. He has had a few hard races (also some caused by unexplainably weak starts like in Hungary, where he lost 4 positions. Toyota's starts this season have been awful and I don't know the reason), but as the car is so unstable - like worn tyres, suspension blows, whatever, then I don't put much blame on him for that. The French GP start accident is probably the bleakest moment. But at least he hasn't had a weekend, where he has been totally out of pace clearly behind team-mate. RS, unfortunately, has had several such weekends besides several good or even great performances. I think he has been more inconsistent this season than JT.

I'm still surprised that they seem to stay so calm. I would have gone mad by driving in such car, also taking into account previous achievements and putative potential of the team...

[unendos]

:dozey: What-ever one sez about Half... he's never been more than a journeyman driver. He can be very quick... if the car is perfect. But don't expect him to move up the grid with a car that's a bit off.

;) It's almost a Sure Bet that come next year...


We won't have Ralfie around to bash... anymore. :s mokin:

well i guess that will be the end of the world for ralf then :rolleyes:

[ioan]

:dozey: What-ever one sez about Half... he's never been more than a journeyman driver. He can be very quick... if the car is perfect. But don't expect him to move up the grid with a car that's a bit off.

;) It's almost a Sure Bet that come next year...


We won't have Ralfie around to bash... anymore. :s mokin:

And he will finally enjoy his millions.
Well done Ralf! ;)

[trumperZ06]

And he will finally enjoy his millions.
Well done Ralf! ;)

;) Must be the revenue from his Sex-Toy shops...

:p : He certainly didn't earn it... driving for Toyota !!! :D : :s mokin:

[tinchote]

;) Must be the revenue from his Sex-Toy shops...

:p : He certainly didn't earn it... driving for Toyota !!! :D : :s mokin:


Whether you like it or not, he is most likely the best paid driver Williams ever had :D

[ioan]

Whether you like it or not, he is most likely the best paid driver Williams ever had :D

:D Right on! ;)

[Garry Walker]

Actually, I dont give a monkeys what last name he has. he's not performing against a second tier team mate. You will find very few people that consider JT to be top drawer outside of the Moderators enclosure!!
Trulli had Alonso beaten in 2004, even with Flavio making his life as hard for him as possible. But yes, overall Trulli is lacking a bit, but in qualifying he is very good. Better than Alonso and Kimi, in my view.



In the odd race, yes, Ralf is faster but overall, over the whole season and not specific instances which match your opinion, he is qualifying 3 places back on JT and finishing 1 place behind him.
Ralf has had some really bad qualys and 2 really bad races, but what I am talking about is overall pace in race. In that, he is usually faster than Trulli. At least that has been the obvious case in the last races, but even before that I think he had a certain advantage in racepace, but found it difficult to show it due to the difficulties in qualifying. Remember, the finishing position doesnt neccesarily show the pace the driver was able to lap at.



Oh dear :laugh: So you think much of the bashing Ralf gets is deserved? I know one person in this forum said Ralf needs to be dumped, because he hasnt won for Toyota. How can anyone justify a hateful stupid remark like that?
oh and a really good come-back from you btw.



It's an impression formed over the years of watching him in F1. He looks like someone who is not sure why he's a racing driver. Of course, that could be a false impression and may do Ralf an injustice.
What gave you that impression, do tell me. There had to be reasons for it, otherwise it is..unreasonable of an opinion.
For me, a driver who comes back from such a serious crashes as Ralf has done (Monza 2003, Usa 2004, races at Imola 2003 despite her mom having died just hours before and races very very well) show that he is indeed a committed driver.


Frankly that is a cheap comment that only serves to undermine what little there is of your argument.
Glass houses.



Just ask Frank Williams or Patrick Head. Unfortunately, they didnt want to meet me for the dinner, so you will have to explain to me what
Jacques Laffite and Patrese with their 6 wins brought to F1 that Ralf with his 6 wins didnt. One thing is for sure, I reckon both of those 2 got beaten by their teammates more than Ralf has been beaten by his.



At times, yes.

More often than not.

Furthermore, you havent provided an answer to my question on your claim about Alonso giving more to his team than Ralf, I`d like that proof now, please.



And this is your benchmark for how great Ralf is. Someone you acknowledge goes backwards in the race :laugh: Trulli is a very good qualifier (a top 3 qualifier in F1 for sure), Ralf has the edge in racepace. Thats how it is. Trulli is a pretty fast driver anyhow, he had the edge on the oh so great Alonso in 2004 in a team geared around Alonso.


JT is no Kimi and no Alonso. Hell, Massa looks good beside him.But the last time Alonso and Trulli drove comparable cars was in 2004 and then Alonso was beaten by JT.


No ioan. I laugh because it's easy to claim that critics of Ralf are nothing more than "bashers", or that he is criticised simply because of his name. It's so much easier than constructing an opinion or an argument of your own.
You are mistaken, again.
1) I have no problems with constructive criticism, I welcome it. During the early season when Ralf was having problems with his qualifying, I said he needs to improve on it. When someone else said that, I agreed with that person. What I have a problem with is stupid bashing and hatred towards him and no one of any intellectual worth can deny that there is a lot of bashing towards Ralf that is completely unjustified. Unless you take comments like "ralf is guilty of Toyota not winning and needs to be dumped as soon as possible lol" as constructive criticism.



:dozey: What-ever one sez about Half... he's never been more than a journeyman driver. He can be very quick... if the car is perfect. But don't expect him to move up the grid with a car that's a bit off.

Wasnt there a rule about nicknames in this forum?

As for being a journeyman driver, what does that make of JPM who never managed to beat Ralf?

Ralf is actually much more able to drive around problems than for example his current teammate. Obviously, he isnt at his brothers level in this regard, but who is? No one.


Glad to see you back, Garry Walker!
Good evening



But... Oh dear. The last thing that we needed is that Ralf defenders start bashing Jarno... :( I have not bashed Jarno!



And the main problem remains to be Toyota.Of course, but some people are really so unbelieveably stupid that they think firing Ralf and hiring a driver like Montagny or Glock will suddenly move the team forward :ROTFLMAO:



The car is so unreliable and inconsistent, team's work is so incompetent and the decisions are often strange, so I think any driver would be in big trouble in Toyota and he's stock would fall quickly. It's very hard to be totally consistent driving for Toyota. If you have noticed, then both Jarno and Ralf have been more inconsistent in Toyota than they were before joining Toyota thanks to the car that doesn't enable consistent performing. Also people rated them a lot higher before joining Toyota (as much as I remember, then the hirings of RS and JT were quite warmly welcomed back in 2004), but now probably many people think that they are the worst drivers on the grid. :mark:
Exactly. Toyotas problems are with the management of the team. Drivers are an easy scapegoat always, but people need to wake up. Both JT and RS are doing the best in a team that is simply not good enough. How can anyone expect them to win in a team which doesnt have any idea if their suspension will last or not? They should throw all the money they have at Ross Brawn and hire him to be the team boss and give them full authority on everything. No japanese management involvement anymore.




I'm still surprised that they seem to stay so calm. I would have gone mad by driving in such car, also taking into account previous achievements and putative potential of the team...Absolutely. Ralf and Trulli have behaved like professionals all the way, all the way through. Which cannot be said about some other drivers in F1.

[race aficionado]

Originally Posted by tinchote
Whether you like it or not, he is most likely the best paid driver Williams ever had


:D Right on! ;)

:D Right off! ;)


:s mokin:

[trumperZ06]

Whether you like it or not, he is most likely the best paid driver Williams ever had :D

:p : Hey Tin, temper... temper, is this a play on words?

If so... Try being a little more subtle (look it up)... !!!

I guess you really think... Ralfie's driving skills has earned the salary he's being paid by Toyota, his current employer ???

Wow... how does Williams enter into this???

Hhmmmm... O K... jump in... it's always fun to play with you.

Surely you aren't suggesting Ralfie is the BEST DRIVER...

Williams has ever had ???

Tut Tut, I would think NOT !!! Poor baby, I guess you are just trying to be... "cute" !!!

;) I wasn't involved with paying Ralfie's salary, and I'm not sure that the well known...

tight wad (when it comes to driver's salaries)... Frank Williams... paid all of it, either.

Many people, who seemed to be in the know... suspected that BMW had both... a hand in choosing Ralf and paying part of his salary, while he was driving for Williams !!!

:rolleyes: Are you REALLY suggesting Ralfie was the BEST DRIVER... Frank ever had driving for... Team Williams ???

If so, maybe we need to start another thread !!! :s mokin:

[tinchote]

Surely you aren't suggesting Ralfie is the BEST DRIVER...

Williams has ever had ???


(I'll just answer this, and I'll ignore the rest of your agression; even after seen you doing that for years, I still find it offensive, disrespectful and annoying)

Of course not. But many people here (notably you) bash the guy as if he was the worst driver ever. And it is a fact that he has been the best paid driver that a great team (Williams) has had.

I don't think RS is a great driver. But over the years he has been competent and, on certain ocassions, brilliant. Also, many times he looks like he turns himself off. But it is really hard to evaluate from the outside how hard a driver is trying.

[Ranger]

I think Ralf and Jarno should share a car across a season - it is evident that each driver is only impressive for a period of time every season. The rest of the time they seem to sleep.

[ArrowsFA1]

So you think much of the bashing Ralf gets is deserved? I know one person in this forum said Ralf needs to be dumped, because he hasnt won for Toyota. How can anyone justify a hateful stupid remark like that?
Garry, "bashing" a driver is as bad as defending a driver simply because of his surname.

We all have opinions of any drivers performance, and most of those opinions do not have the benefit of "insider" information. Of course, Ralf's performances, like Jarno's, are largely (not entirely) dependent on the Toyota they are both driving. In the light of that do you not think it is significant that Toyota have not yet re-signed Ralf?

My opinion of Ralf is based on having watched him since he came into F1 in 1997. He is a podium finisher, and can occasionally win races, but there are many others who have done the same, some of which you have far less regard for.

[Flat.tyres]

I don't think RS is a great driver. But over the years he has been competent and, on certain ocassions, brilliant. Also, many times he looks like he turns himself off. But it is really hard to evaluate from the outside how hard a driver is trying.

I think this is a very fair assessment.

Almost all the drivers out there are damn fine drivers who deserve the opportunity to drive in F1. Ralf has the occassional brilliant race which makes you wonder why he (appears) to lose focus and motivation at times.

Sure, it's hard to be 100% with a uncompetitive car but you get the feeling that he's done his career, doesn't feel the challenge that a new driver might and only really steps up to the plate when he gets a rocket up his leaderhosen.

He has the potential to be one of the quickest drivers out there on rare occassions but you have to ask when potential ability stops and wasted opportunity sets in. For whatever reason, Ralf has not achieved the potential a lot of us think he has and it's all a little too late now. Perhaps that's why people question his committment and focus. Not because he's a crap driver which he obviously isn't, but because they think he should have done more with his talent where instead he looks lacklustre most of the time.

[Garry Walker]

Garry, "bashing" a driver is as bad as defending a driver simply because of his surname.
No. I am saying that there is hatred towards Ralf based on his surname. That is undeniable.



We all have opinions of any drivers performance, and most of those opinions do not have the benefit of "insider" information. Of course, Ralf's performances, like Jarno's, are largely (not entirely) dependent on the Toyota they are both driving. In the light of that do you not think it is significant that Toyota have not yet re-signed Ralf? We do not know what is going on there, but if Toyota thought Ralf was worth 20 Million a year, dont you think that shows something about how much they value him?



My opinion of Ralf is based on having watched him since he came into F1 in 1997. He is a podium finisher, and can occasionally win races, but there are many others who have done the same, some of which you have far less regard for. You have no idea how much regard for someone I have. I dont think Ralf is a brilliant driver, but he is one of the best drivers in F1 easily. You still havent given any explanation as to why you have the impression of his as a driver not interested in racing.

You are also still avoiding giving me an explanation as to why Laffite and Patrese gave more to F1 than Ralf and why you think Alonso contributed more to his team than Ralf.

I think if you claim something, you must be able to back it up and the explanation for those things should not take much of your time or effort.

[ArrowsFA1]

I am saying that there is hatred towards Ralf based on his surname. That is undeniable.
You asked if the "bashing" Ralf got was deserved. It seems that you equate criticism of Ralf with "bashing" because you disagree with that criticism. That is hardly conducive to a reasonable discussion, which is why this one's not worth any more of my time or effort.

Replacing drivers will not make any difference to Toyota.

The biggest problem is that Toyota, for as long as they do things the 'Toyota Way, will do feck all.

[trumperZ06]

(I'll just answer this, and I'll ignore the rest of your agression; even after seen you doing that for years, I still find it offensive, disrespectful and annoying)

Of course not. But many people here (notably you) bash the guy as if he was the worst driver ever. And it is a fact that he has been the best paid driver that a great team (Williams) has had.

I don't think RS is a great driver. But over the years he has been competent and, on certain ocassions, brilliant. Also, many times he looks like he turns himself off. But it is really hard to evaluate from the outside how hard a driver is trying.

;) Hhmmmm... Gosh I thought my post # 256 said the same thing...

Ralfie at best... was a good journeyman driver.

On a Good day... with a perfectly set-up car.... he could be very fast,

But... with a car that was just a bit "off", Ralfie was not likely to move it towards the front !!!

:D Oh... and I Still don't think he'll be back at Toyota... next year, but

stranger things have happened in Formula 1.

Cya,

:s mokin: Trumper :s mokin:

[Garry Walker]

You asked if the "bashing" Ralf got was deserved. It seems that you equate criticism of Ralf with "bashing" because you disagree with that criticism. That is hardly conducive to a reasonable discussion, which is why this one's not worth any more of my time or effort.

no, it seems you dont understand what I am saying, which seems to be happening a lot. UNDESERVED bashing I have a problem with. If you say Ralf didnt perform well in the qualifyings at the start of the season, I am okay with that. I am okay with anyone saying Ralf drove like an idiot at Indy.
What I am not okay with is people saying "ralf isnt interested in racing" and then having nothing at all to back that up with. I also consider it stupid when I see people saying Ralf is to blame for Toyota not winning. I also think it is stupid when someone claims that Ralf sucks bigtime, is one of the worst drivers on the grid and should be dumped, followed with the clever "lol"

Now, I am still requiring the following things from you (be a man enough and say you dont have the answers for them, if that is the case):
1)Why Ralf isnt interested in racing, in your view.?
2)Why Patrese and Laffite contributed more to F1 than Ralf?
3)Why do you think Alonso has contributed more to his team than Ralf?

Oh and Patrick Head apparently still values Ralf highly - From spies in Turkey: "Patrick Head supported his former driver by advising the Toyota management to keep Schumacher, as he is one of the few in the field who has got an understanding of the car".