Race 21 - Brazillian GP 2024 [Sao Paulo]

[Nitrodaze]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Aut%C3%B3dromo_Jos%C3%A9_Carlos_Pace%2C_July_3%2C_ 2018_SkySat_%28cropped%29.jpg

On the current grid, Sir Lewis Hamilton is the most successful driver to race this track with three wins. You probably would not believe that by his current showing in the current Mercedes. With Verstappen close behind with two wins. The most successful driver to ever race this track is the Meastro, Alain Prost with five wins. He sits above the red baron Michael Schumacher and the Argentinian, Carlos Reutemann with four wins each. Third place is jointly shared by Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel with three wins each.

We come into Sao Paulo sprint weekend in the wake of the Mexican GP controversies. Verstappen sees his championship lead cut to 47 points after a stinging 20-second penalty. As Verstappen reels from that one, so does McLaren as they see their Constructors-championship lead cut down to 29 points by Ferrari. Redbull also watches with frustration as they slip backwards to third in the constructors. Not taking Perez properly into consideration in their design efforts is now causing them problems, some may say.
These last four races are now so crucial to all concerned. Any slipups are most certainly going to be irrecoverably punitive. The demands on drivers and teams alike are high and nothing short of needing to produce flawless operation and execution at every race going forward.

McLaren has bounced back with a one-two grid start for the sprint. Noticeably, Verstappen qualifies fourth in front of a faster Ferrari of Sainz. Norris has to start well to keep Leclerc behind to be in place to benefit from a switch later in the race to take the race win. The one that matters the most is the Sunday race of course. If McLaren executes their operation efficiently, they are set to put some more points between themselves and Ferrari. And Verstappen is likely to see the difference to Norris drop considerably with two McLarden and two Ferrari ahead.

My money is on Verstappen pulling out a spectacular race to limit any loss go the minimum possible. It is going to be a cracking race.

[Used to be Starter]

Nice work by McLaren in the sprint race to keep as many points from Verstappen as they did. What happened to Ferrari? It will be interesting to see if they can do better tomorrow.

[Nitrodaze]

Nice work by McLaren in the sprint race to keep as many points from Verstappen as they did. What happened to Ferrari? It will be interesting to see if they can do better tomorrow.

I am sure Ferrari would learn a thing or two from the sprint. I expect them to be ahead of the Redbull in Quali later today. As it stands, Norris has cut the gap down to 45 points which is credit to Verstappen for executing the maximum damage limitation possible. The gap between McLaren and Ferrari has gone up to 35 points.
There is a chance of rain tomorrow. Verstappen is brilliant in the wet, so things may revert in the driver's championship fight.

There is talk of VSC infringement by Verstappen, he may attract a penalty that may sap more points from him.

[Matthew]

5 second penalty for Verstappen , dropping him to P4.

[Nitrodaze]

5 second penalty for Verstappen , dropping him to P4.

But is on pole for the race on sunday due to the storm. The universe finds a way to balance things out

[airshifter]

But is on pole for the race on sunday due to the storm. The universe finds a way to balance things out

Nobody is on pole for the race until race qually takes place. And with that being delayed until Sunday morning, it's looking like there is a good chance the race will be impacted by rain, if it even takes place or runs long enough to count for points. And with a 5 place grid penalty for the engine change, at best Max is still on the back foot.

The race will take place earlier than usual, starting at 12:30 local time, in hopes they can beat the weather.



As for today, strange for McLaren to wait so long to switch the drivers. They had chances when Leclerc made a couple errors and fell out of DRS. And with the failing of Hulk's car, they almost still screwed it up. As for the VSC timing, I don't wade into the conspiracy theories that many embrace, but TBH it was a poor decision regardless IMHO. We watched the race leaders passing under yellow as Hulk walked out of the car, but then after that they finally imposed a VSC. I guess in the FIA's mind the lives of the track workers was more important than the life of Hulk. They should have flown the VSC as soon as it was apparent that the car would be left in a bad spot.

As for that, strange to me that they left Hulk out when smoking for laps before. It's not like there wasn't a warning that it was coming.


Though shaky in timing, McLaren did what they could to maximize point gain today. And Max did well to finally get Leclerc and somewhat minimize the damage the best he could. For a few laps there it looked like the only real advantage in the top 4 was Piastri in the clean air. The three behind all seemed to have a shot at things, even with Oscar falling back to give Lando the tow. Had Max gotten past Charles quick, the McLaren attitude of waiting ot swap could have really fallen apart quickly. If they are going to back Lando they need to be decisive in the when and how they do it.

[Used to be Starter]

As for today, strange for McLaren to wait so long to switch the drivers. They had chances when Leclerc made a couple errors and fell out of DRS. And with the failing of Hulk's car, they almost still screwed it up. As for the VSC timing, I don't wade into the conspiracy theories that many embrace, but TBH it was a poor decision regardless IMHO. We watched the race leaders passing under yellow as Hulk walked out of the car, but then after that they finally imposed a VSC. I guess in the FIA's mind the lives of the track workers was more important than the life of Hulk. They should have flown the VSC as soon as it was apparent that the car would be left in a bad spot.

You forget, that whether there was a virtual safety car or not, there was still a yellow at the incident. Hulk's car still needed to be cleared which I believe was the reason for the VSC. I also don't remember seeing any cars passing others in the yellow zone.

[saco0o]

lewis doing some laps here on the 90's McLaren V10. two things:
1) for f sake it becomes unacceptable to listen to the v6 hybrids after hearing a V10 (or a V8 when alonso did some laps that time on the old renault). f1 is just stupid for going away from these engines. hope the 100% synth fuel in the next years allow bigger engines to return.
of course modern smaller engines can do the job (like the 4cyl engines in super formula that are only some secs behind f1's in suzuka, for example) but booooy the sound is what makes it magical. we forget that because we accept and adapt.
2) lewis did a few laps... nobody looked to the car. honestly. everybody was just filming it. then they watch their vídeos on the phone while the car is on the other side of the circuit, then they film again when the car comes back. people DIDNT LOOKED to the actual car. Im serious. this is so black mirror
(said the guy on an internet forum)

[gm99]

What in the world was Stroll thinking there, driving his car into the gravel?

[Nitrodaze]

Red flag! F1 is at its very best right now. Who is going win this barmy race?

[Nitrodaze]

VERSTAPPEN, the man!

What a performance!

Verstappen drove a race of a champion. This is the sort of performance that Norris needed to put out to be Championship-winning material this season.

I think the driver's championship is done now. It is all about the constructors now. McLaren has to do their best to win the constructors title.

[Used to be Starter]

McLaren gave the race away by pitting for tires before the red flag. That was it right there, both race and championship.

[Nitrodaze]

McLaren gave the race away by pitting for tires before the red flag. That was it right there, both race and championship.

McLaren is not to blame for how things turned out. It was a bizarre race that was right in Verstappen's playbook.

[F1nKS]

Fun race. I was engaged for the whole race. Great drive by Max.

I don't understand why the teams give up track positions so quickly (Leclerc showed early that it was not a winning strategy). They knew a significant rain was coming and that the likelihood of a red flag from a big crash or unsafe conditions was likely.

Personally, I wished they would change the red flag rules from allowing tires changes there to count for their required pitstop. Let them change tires if needed, but still make them make their required pit stop.

McLaren will kick themselves when they look at what could have been for the 2024 season.

Alpine may have saved their season with this one race.

I will be interested to hear what comes of "aborted start". That was dangerous because of the people and equipment out there in harms way. The FIA should not leave it to teams to have the ability to screw up the messaging.

Lawson beating Perez...his seat is getting hot.

[F1nKS]

I will be interested to hear what comes of "aborted start". That was dangerous because of the people and equipment out there in harms way. The FIA should not leave it to teams to have the ability to screw up the messaging.


They gave Norris and Russel a fine of 5,000.

[Nitrodaze]

Lawson beating Perez...his seat is getting hot.

Lawson has adopted Verstappen's approach to racing. He is very dangerous to overtake as Alonso, Hamilton and Perez discovered. All of these guys have had collisions with Lawson. He claims not to be in F1 to make friends which says it all really. He is certainly earning himself a reputation.

[Nitrodaze]

Hamilton says he would rather take a holiday for the rest of the season. This is an indication of how disgusted he is of the Mercedes under him. This season we have seen the dark side of Mercedes. An obvious politically correct way of diminishing their support for the Hamilton side of the garage. It is hard to do this sort of thing to a driver of Hamilton's calibre without it being obvious. Because he has excelled at most tracks on the calendar. So when he is down the order at tracks he has won multiple times, it is glaringly clear what is going on. Hamilton tenth on a wet Sao Paulo track with the other Mercedes in the top five, borders on reckless disregard of what anyone thinks.

It is clear though that the champ is now going through the motions and can't wait to be out of there.

I say shame on Mercedes, we see it and it is not pretty. This is the sort of race that Mercedes should be winning. Low hanging fruit which the Alpines grabbed when it could easily be both Mercedes if they were operating fairly and focussed on exploiting the clear opportunity that the rain presented.

[Bagwan]

If Hamilton really said that , I say let him take that holiday .

The words "disgusting" and "shameful" come to mind .

[Nitrodaze]

if hamilton really said that , i say let him take that holiday .

The words "disgusting" and "shameful" come to mind .

no comment

[Used to be Starter]

Hamilton says he would rather take a holiday for the rest of the season. This is an indication of how disgusted he is of the Mercedes under him. This season we have seen the dark side of Mercedes. An obvious politically correct way of diminishing their support for the Hamilton side of the garage. It is hard to do this sort of thing to a driver of Hamilton's calibre without it being obvious. Because he has excelled at most tracks on the calendar. So when he is down the order at tracks he has won multiple times, it is glaringly clear what is going on. Hamilton tenth on a wet Sao Paulo track with the other Mercedes in the top five, borders on reckless disregard of what anyone thinks.

It is clear though that the champ is now going through the motions and can't wait to be out of there.

I say shame on Mercedes, we see it and it is not pretty. This is the sort of race that Mercedes should be winning. Low hanging fruit which the Alpines grabbed when it could easily be both Mercedes if they were operating fairly and focussed on exploiting the clear opportunity that the rain presented.

It's highly unlikely that is what is happening. There are too many incentives, monetary and otherwise, for any team to do that. With the exception of a team like Williams, which didn't have the resources to have two up to date cars. I think Hamilton is done with Merc and is just going through the motions. To be competitive at this level you have to be on point all the time and he hasn't been. He's still better than maybe half the grid, but right now he is toast as far as being really there. If he doesn't get it together for the start of 2025 he may be one and done at Ferrari.

[sgr]

The bit of a steward has to go. Max calling out the British media for their lack of sportsmanship in the news conference was spot on.

[Used to be Starter]

Hmmm, Max looking for good sportsmanship is a contradiction in terms.

[N. Jones]

His form is why I do not think he will do well at Ferrari next year.

[Nitrodaze]

It's highly unlikely that is what is happening. There are too many incentives, monetary and otherwise, for any team to do that. With the exception of a team like Williams, which didn't have the resources to have two up to date cars. I think Hamilton is done with Merc and is just going through the motions. To be competitive at this level you have to be on point all the time and he hasn't been. He's still better than maybe half the grid, but right now he is toast as far as being really there. If he doesn't get it together for the start of 2025 he may be one and done at Ferrari.

You are partly correct. To be motivated to perform, the team has to provide a car that is compliant to the driver and gives the driver confidence to push it to the limit. Hamilton has not felt that from the Mercedes most of the time. He has experimented a lot with various settings of the car and has not been able to find the sweet spot to give him the confidence in the Mercedes like he had previously experienced in their hay days.

His Ferrari debut shall be a different affair. Mainly because Ferrari shall be properly invested in Hamilton getting all the support he needs to perform at his best. When Hamilton is comfortable, there is none on the current grid that can challenge him. I mean NONE.

That said, it comes down to whether he can settle in quickly and well enough to be able to communicate his wishes. And whether Ferrari can extract the best from him by taking in his requirements and producing the car he desires. If both sides can achieve that, then Mercedes and Redbull have a real headache to deal with from a Hamilton-driven Ferrari.

I think you would be wrong to view Hamilton from the picture that Mercedes has painted him over the last two years.

[Nitrodaze]

Hmmm, Max looking for good sportsmanship is a contradiction in terms.

Ha ha ha, a bit narcissistic don't you think.

[Nitrodaze]

His form is why I do not think he will do well at Ferrari next year.

To be fair, the last three seasons have raised a question of whether he is still up there for championship contention. This is something he would have to prove in 2025. I watched his form and cringed some of the time. Take Sao Paulo for instance, what a douch.

But l also saw enough evidence that there was a lack of performance from the team's perspective as well. A hungry young driver would make the most of the situation at Mercedes as he would not know the best that Mercedes is capable of. For Hamilton who knows the highest capability of the team, he would spend more time trying to find a way back to that level of performance from the car and may lose his way in the process on occasions.

For someone who has provided the team eight constructors championship titles, it is really the failing of Mercedes for not being able to provide their most successful driver with a car that allows him to access his best capability. This is why l think the real measure of Hamilton's true level would be best gauged when he turn a wheel in the Ferrari.

The situation is not much different to the situation of Perez in the Redbull. Poor fellow was doomed to fail on all fronts by situations outside his control. That second seat may be up for grabs, but it is a cursed seat that would ruin the career of any other driver that takes it.

[Bagwan]

So , anybody care to calculate how much Lewis gets paid each time he steps into the car to do his job ?

That , and the job his employer has done for him over the years of success they helped him achieve isn't enough ?

Lewis , with his record , is entitled to respect , but respect is a two-way street .

[N. Jones]

To be fair, the last three seasons have raised a question of whether he is still up there for championship contention. This is something he would have to prove in 2025. I watched his form and cringed some of the time. Take Sao Paulo for instance, what a douch.

But l also saw enough evidence that there was a lack of performance from the team's perspective as well. A hungry young driver would make the most of the situation at Mercedes as he would not know the best that Mercedes is capable of. For Hamilton who knows the highest capability of the team, he would spend more time trying to find a way back to that level of performance from the car and may lose his way in the process on occasions.

For someone who has provided the team eight constructors championship titles, it is really the failing of Mercedes for not being able to provide their most successful driver with a car that allows him to access his best capability. This is why l think the real measure of Hamilton's true level would be best gauged when he turn a wheel in the Ferrari.

The situation is not much different to the situation of Perez in the Redbull. Poor fellow was doomed to fail on all fronts by situations outside his control. That second seat may be up for grabs, but it is a cursed seat that would ruin the career of any other driver that takes it.

We thought Vettel would be better once he left Ferrari and that did not happen. I think the same will happen to Lewis.

[Nitrodaze]

We thought Vettel would be better once he left Ferrari and that did not happen. I think the same will happen to Lewis.

Come on buddy, totally different scenario. Vettel had all the support he needed from Ferrari to do well. It just did not work out because both sides made costly mistakes. The car was good and Vettel was the number one driver. And leaving Ferrari to a customer team in the midfield was never going to be better than his Ferrari years.

On the Hamilton side, the car was several iterations of crap. It showed flashes of good performances now and again. The W15 was a second-rate car compared to Redbull, McLaren and Ferrari. Mercedes never really got their heads around the ground effect regulations.

From the moment they chose not to fight on behalf of Hamilton for the stolen 2021 driver's title, it was apparent there was disparity between the team and Hamilton. It was very clear in 2022, where it was clear they did not design the car with Hamilton in mind. The internal disarray culminated in the designer of the 2022 car being removed from the role and replaced. Eventually, he left the team. What continued was the diminished status of Hamilton within the team. He had to battle to get support for his side of the garage from as far back as 2022. Ofcourse these are things that would not be easily apparent to on-lookers outside the team. This is what politically correct lack of support looks like. From the outside it looks normal, from the inside it is usually hell.

Hence, his decision to leave the team and head to Ferrari did not really surprise me. He seemed already out of the team since 2022. If anything, Mercedes slowly pushed him out without really realizing it.

[N. Jones]

I knew you were going to say that. This is not a totally different scenario. This is two old drivers having issues toward the end of their stay at a team. I don't think Lewis is going to be any better at Ferrari. Sure, he will be on the podium, but he is going to get beat by Charles.

[airshifter]

You forget, that whether there was a virtual safety car or not, there was still a yellow at the incident. Hulk's car still needed to be cleared which I believe was the reason for the VSC. I also don't remember seeing any cars passing others in the yellow zone.

But why wait? As I said, I can see how the conspiracy theorists found some meat in the delay..... even if I don't believe it. Stronger safety procedures never killed a driver, and they knew the car had to be moved. I just think it's a bad message, similar to the very poor message from the drivers that lef the grid for a second formation lap and got only very small fines. Rules exist for a reason, and in this case the reason being driver and track worker safety.




As for the overall weekend.... fairly insane really. I wasn't sure if they would pull off a race, but they did. And with the wet track, it had plenty of twists and turns.

Max had a beast of a drive, and used that different T1 entry as much as he could. Lando cracked at the restart, but other than that looked solid. The Alpines manage a podium..... after all drivers are claimed to make their own luck right? :) Both the qually and finishing grids tossed the expectations of the dry races, and a lot of "lesser" drivers seemed capable in the wet against teams with superior cars. It makes you wonder how many of the young guns might be monsters in the top cars given some time.


As for Lewis.... he had a crap race and being in his own head early on probably didn't help. But the mental gymnastics being applied to make him the greatest must be exhausting. :laugh:

[airshifter]

So , anybody care to calculate how much Lewis gets paid each time he steps into the car to do his job ?

That , and the job his employer has done for him over the years of success they helped him achieve isn't enough ?

Lewis , with his record , is entitled to respect , but respect is a two-way street .

Not a single driver on the grid has won titles with poor cars. As such, I put more into the team effort than the driver effort.

I think Lewis is in his own head, and doing everything he can to move all blame to the team. Yet he gladly accepts any praise when he has a good weekend. George at times has been vocal about the car as well, but just tries to get on with things.

And in Brazil, he proved the car could approach the podium even with all the twists and turns.

[Nitrodaze]

I knew you were going to say that. This is not a totally different scenario. This is two old drivers having issues toward the end of their stay at a team. I don't think Lewis is going to be any better at Ferrari. Sure, he will be on the podium, but he is going to get beat by Charles.

We have to wait and see what happens. I don't underrate Leclerc. I fully expect him to give Hamilton a run for his money. If the Ferrari turns out to be the benchmark in 2026, then we shall enjoy a proper showdown between Hamilton and Leclerc. We should bide our time and watch how things unfold over the next two seasons.

One thing is certain, what would happen would not be dictated by what we think but the drivers themselves. So we can say what we like, what is going to happen would happen.

That said, this is such a great opportunity for Leclerc to attain cult status. If he is able to defeat the GOAT in a championship-winning car, he would attain the sort of respect that Verstappen would pay good money to achieve. Make no mistake, there is huge motivation for Leclerc to defeat Hamilton. He would take some comfort in seeing Russell doing so well against Hamilton in the dodgy Mercedes. And so many, such as yourself would love to see the champ beat. I understand that.

But when it comes to it, all of that would not matter. It would come down to the two men involved and how they are able to get the job done. That is what we are looking forward to seeing.

I would also say that l am sure Hamilton is not underestimating Leclerc. He would do his homework and learn as much as possible in the 2025 season in preparation for the 2026 season where it really matters.

This pairing may turn out to be a real headache for Vasseur.

[Nitrodaze]

I knew you were going to say that. This is not a totally different scenario. This is two old drivers having issues toward the end of their stay at a team. I don't think Lewis is going to be any better at Ferrari. Sure, he will be on the podium, but he is going to get beat by Charles.

I also want to touch on the "Old men having issues towards the end of their stay at a team" comment. I think it would be wrong to make that comparison, especially seeing how well Alonso is performing under the circumstances that he faces at Aston Martin. The mindset of Hamilton is so different from that of Vettel. Especially in a championship-winning car. So he would do things quite differently to how Vettel would. This is not to demean Vettel in any way, they just do things in very different ways; is my point.

What that is, is what we have to discover in 2026. I expect Leclerc to have the advantage in 2025 due to being well-bedded into the Ferrari team already. Hamilton has to learn how Ferrari works and build relationships with engineers etc.

We are talking about two men who have won championships at every. level they have competed in. So it going to be a battle royal. It would be a contest of youth versus experience. That did not work out well for Anthony Joshua against a much younger Dubios. That was boxing and not F1, what takes several minutes in boxing takes several months in F1