Ron Dennis owns up to team orders?!

[F1boat]

Ioan, at least I always defended team orders, no matter which team is ordering ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

A few seasons ago MS and DC spent the whole last sting of the Monaco GP fighting for 1st place and they didn't even come close to an accident.
Neither did Mansell and Senna in 1992, and that's with Mansell having fresh tyres and the superior car. What does that tell you, and how often have you heard how difficult it is to pass a car that is 2-3secs slower, let alone pass your team-mate in the same car? At Monaco?

What I like in this thread is to see all those who were accusing Ferrari for team orders defending McLaren against team orders accusations!
ioan, just because one team is guilty does not automatically make another team guilty, as the FIA have established. If that was the way things work then we'd have empty grids!!!!!

[Valve Bounce]

Neither did Mansell and Senna in 1992, and that's with Mansell having fresh tyres and the superior car. What does that tell you, and how often have you heard how difficult it is to pass a car that is 2-3secs slower, let alone pass your team-mate in the same car? At Monaco?

!!!!!

Many here will still remembr Bernoldi in his far inferior car holding up DC for half the race at Monaco.

[ioan]

Neither did Mansell and Senna in 1992, and that's with Mansell having fresh tyres and the superior car. What does that tell you, and how often have you heard how difficult it is to pass a car that is 2-3secs slower, let alone pass your team-mate in the same car? At Monaco?

Try to look at the problem, McLaren could have let them fight for that 1st place at least in that first pistops window, if not on the track.
Maybe FA needed a sign from RD that the team supports him after the recent beatings he got from LH.
Maybe RD wasn't sure that LH will be able to keep the car safe and also doesn't believe in him for the WDC fight, so he decided to push FA ahead.
It is their business, but it's ugly to follow knowing that the young one is at least as fast as the champ if not faster.


ioan, just because one team is guilty does not automatically make another team guilty, as the FIA have established. If that was the way things work then we'd have empty grids!!!!!

Especially if it is for the same thing: team orders!!! :rolleyes:

The way I see it is that the FIA should have never brought in that rule about team orders. Now they find out that it isn't possible to use because as you say we would have an empty grid (well maybe not empty because the last team standing wouldn't need orders at all to win!).
As it is the FIA crucified Ferrari in 2002 but is not even giving a fine to McLaren after RD publicly declared that he gave his drivers orders not to race each other!

As for the double standards and the hypocrisy around here I'm glad that I can still point it to your faces people! :p :

[ArrowsFA1]

Especially if it is for the same thing: team orders!!! :rolleyes:
Except it isn't the same thing. The circumstances were similar, although not for the reasons you want to believe.

Ferrari were charged with bringing the sport into disrepute and found guilty, largely for breaching podium protocol, only because there was no rule preventing team orders at the time.

At Monaco McLaren were investigated under Article 151c of the International Sporting Code, which does not relate to team orders, but forbids "any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally". As we know they were found not guilty.

[OTA]

In Austria 2002 we all knew who won the race, while you may argue that it could be LH while many others think that FA was the better man. Great difference in my mind.

Cheers
David

[ioan]

Except it isn't the same thing. The circumstances were similar, although not for the reasons you want to believe.

Ferrari were charged with bringing the sport into disrepute and found guilty, largely for breaching podium protocol, only because there was no rule preventing team orders at the time.

At Monaco McLaren were investigated under Article 151c of the International Sporting Code, which does not relate to team orders, but forbids "any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally". As we know they were found not guilty.

Interesting how at once FIA are right when before everyone considered they weren't!

Let's see how far hypocrisy can go!

[Big Ben]

Interesting how at once FIA are right when before everyone considered they weren't!

Let's see how far hypocrisy can go!

What hypocrisy man? just because most of the members don´t agree with most of the decisions FIA takes doesn´t mean they have to disagree with every single one no matter what!

You keep comparing McLaren with Ferrari but you're way off. At Ferrari, for 11 years only one drivers was allowed to be WDC (if possible). Things were decided before the season started... well... actually that´s not true... it was just the status quo for all those years... there was no need for a decision

[Big Ben]

Maybe FA needed a sign from RD that the team supports him after the recent beatings he got from LH.
Maybe RD wasn't sure that LH will be able to keep the car safe and also doesn't believe in him for the WDC fight, so he decided to push FA ahead.
It is their business, but it's ugly to follow knowing that the young one is at least as fast as the champ if not faster.


How did you figure that out? the fact that FA is slower than LH?
I don´t know how you did it but I know when it happened. I think it was last year.

[Racehound]

To that first question I´d say:
1. The first corner is to the right.
2. Because he was heavier.
3. Because it was much easier to lose a position to FM on the inside than to win one on the exterior.

To SC strategy... I thought the idea was that LH´s strategy could become a one stop strategy if SC was deployed...
perfect understanding of a simple equation!!!!!!

[Racehound]

well I think there's a big difference between:

Team order type 1: X driver is in front of Y driver, order: Let Y driver win because he's the team's number one driver

Team order type 2: X driver is in fron of Y driver and the team having a confortable 1-2, order: don't take out eachother, in Monaco words: don't try to overtake.

Type 1 happened some years ago, Type 2 happens all the time. one is clear wrong the other is just safe playing
you cant argue with this.......facts pure and simple!!!! :)

[Racehound]

I believe that Hamilton could have overtaken Alonso in the (5 or less) laps that he could have stayed out. Hamilton didn't have the optimum strategy, that went to Alonso.
but this still does not take into account the fact that Lewboy was gonna hit traffic during his extra laps and who knows what coulda happened????......how much time he woulda lost is all pie in the sky, and he woulda lost time as soon as he hit the backmarkers, of which by now there were plenty as the McL`s were lapping so much quicker than anyone else...i cant see where Lewboy could have gained the time needed to pass either in the pits or even more impossibly, on the track!!!!!...oh well, lets look forward to next years race there and hope they get the same strategys and fuel loads for a direct comparison/fair fight between them!!!! :)

[Valve Bounce]

Lewis Hamilton had two chances of overtaking Alonso at Monaco: SLIM and FAT

[ShiftingGears]

Thats why drivers resort to pitpassing :p :

[Racehound]

It's all just good business by RD - qualify LH heavier (and therefore slower) in all races than FA. FA wins the WDC and his value goes up. Sell FA's contract at the end of the season and next year LH can run at his full potential as number 1 driver at McLaren!

Make money, get a WDC this year, sell the expensive driver, keep a (cheaper) driver who can win the WDC in the future!
but that plan gets totally screwed if Fernando goes to Ferrrrarrrrrrri!!!!!!!!!!...they tried to get him last year even knowing he signed for 3 years with McL, and williams had him approached in a cloak and dagger operation, to which he gave a polite "NO!!!"........if Fernando isnt happy at McLaren by the end of this season there will be a real possibility he will jump ship for next year, and to pair him with either FM or KR then you wont see Lewboy getting the better of Ferrari in the next 3-4 years at least.......Ferrari will be even more dominant as a team with FA at the helm than they were with trickey mickey himself!!!!!......still,only time will tell.........

[ioan]

but that plan gets totally screwed if Fernando goes to Ferrrrarrrrrrri!!!!!!!!!!...they tried to get him last year even knowing he signed for 3 years with McL, and williams had him approached in a cloak and dagger operation, to which he gave a polite "NO!!!"

Never heard about this. Maybe a link or two at hand about this claims?

[ioan]

McLaren to limit the time their drivers talk to the press.
Maybe they are afraid that Lewis will give away more and more about their team orders!
Will they put a tape on his mouth before the official race press conference? :D

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070607091355.shtml

[Hawkmoon]

McLaren to limit the time their drivers talk to the press.
Maybe they are afraid that Lewis will give away more and more about their team orders!
Will they put a tape on his mouth before the official race press conference? :D

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070607091355.shtml

That's pretty much normal McLaren procedure isn't it? Ron likes his drivers to tow the company line. That's not that different from other teams but McLaren seem to go beyond what the other teams deem necessary.

I'm a little surprised that Hamilton isn't a little more circumspect in some of his comments, considering he has apparently been in the McLaren "family" since he was a young 'un. I would have thought the "greyness" would have permeated his entire being by now. :D

[ioan]

I'm a little surprised that Hamilton isn't a little more circumspect in some of his comments, considering he has apparently been in the McLaren "family" since he was a young 'un. I would have thought the "greyness" would have permeated his entire being by now. :D

It sems that Ron gave him a good lesson the past couple of weeks:

<<"But Alonso did a fantastic job in the race and there is no doubt he did the best job and deserved to win."

He added: "My time will come though. I am only 22. We have got time.">>

Full article: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59484

[Big Ben]

It sems that Ron gave him a good lesson the past couple of weeks:

<<"But Alonso did a fantastic job in the race and there is no doubt he did the best job and deserved to win."

He added: "My time will come though. I am only 22. We have got time.">>

Full article: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59484

He also mentions you

"That is not exactly how it sounded, and I think people took it (the comments) out of context and made it sound a lot worse than it actually was."

[ioan]

Now it's Alonsos turn to feel he has to explain it even further;

<<Speaking to Spanish journalists ahead of the Canadian Grand Prix, Alonso said he believes Hamilton's comments triggered the controversy.

"It all began because of that press conference and what he said, and because of that second pitstop," Alonso was quoted as saying by his country's AS newspaper. "We pitted earlier than planned to avoid risks with the safety car. He was surprised by the team's decision and he said so.

"What nobody said was that I also had fuel left and that we both pitted ahead of time. That was the big confusion.">>

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59502

After the Monaco GP he said that he had managed to salvage 3 laps wort of fuel and that's why he stopped only 3 laps before Hamilton.
Now he says he still had more fuel and could have went even further, but h was also asked to pit earlier!
What kind of credibility they have when their version changes ever time they say something, and everyone is saying something different?
They did the same one year ago in Canada, every person from McLaren was declaring something else about the same problem, none was saying the truth.

[andreag]

After the Monaco GP he said that he had managed to salvage 3 laps wort of fuel and that's why he stopped only 3 laps before Hamilton.
That's right, this is referring to the first pit stop.

Now he says he still had more fuel and could have went even further, but h was also asked to pit earlier!
That's right too, this is referring to the second pit stop, as the team call both drivers 5 laps before it was planned due to the big advantage they had by this time, to prevent problems.

What kind of credibility they have when their version changes ever time they say something, and everyone is saying something different?
All the credibility, as they are referring to different pit stops.

I read it on the newspaper you mentioned (As) on the original language Fernando used when he was speaking to spanish journalists, and it was so clear. Blame it to the Autosport.com translator.

[F1MAN2007]

I think Alonso showed the paddock who is boss yesterday by dominating both free practice sessions for the Canadian Grand Prix and lapping in the same time more than half a second the close monkey (by LH).

[pino]

I think Alonso showed the paddock who is boss yesterday by dominating both free practice sessions for the Canadian Grand Prix and lapping in the same time more than half a second the close monkey (by LH).

But today it was Hamilton who showed who's the boss :p : ;)

[Zico]

I think Alonso showed the paddock who is boss yesterday by dominating both free practice sessions for the Canadian Grand Prix and lapping in the same time more than half a second the close monkey (by LH).


Ahem.. and what were his times like in 3rd practice and qualifying? ;)

[wedge]

Are people still convinced Ron brought in Lewis because of a safety car situation?

The currents SC rules sucks!

[Ranger]

Apparently Fernando was brought in earlier than scheduled for his first stop in fear of the safety car, and the McLaren drivers were told to back off in the final stint, hence preventing racing.

...So why don't I see the media blowing up over it this time around? ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Apparently Fernando was brought in earlier than scheduled for his first stop in fear of the safety car, and the McLaren drivers were told to back off in the final stint, hence preventing racing.
Do you have a link because according to Ron Dennis:

"Lewis and Fernando raced from beginning to end. During the middle stint Fernando pushed hard and caught Lewis and this of course created some positive but tense moments on the pitwall. We were obviously happy to let them race but had to be mindful of the fact that our competition was not threatening our one-two finish. 15 laps from the end both drivers reduced their revs to save the engines for the French Grand Prix but still continued to race."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59929

Also this from the press conference:

Q. (Carlos Miquel – Diario AS) Fernando, the last stop did you stop before the plan?
FA: I don't know. I don't think so. I didn't know what the second stop was because we were very open to decide when to stop. I think obviously the first stop is clear and is decided yesterday in qualifying when you put in the fuel for Q3. The second stop, I think the team decides however the race goes in the first 10 or 15 laps. So I think I stopped in the lap they wanted.

[Ranger]

15 laps from the end both drivers reduced their revs to save the engines for the French Grand Prix but still continued to race."
I don't buy that as a feasible statement. You're simply not racing if you're not going at 100%, especially when the gap is less than 2 seconds.

[donKey jote]

Apparently Fernando was brought in earlier than scheduled for his first stop in fear of the safety car, and the McLaren drivers were told to back off in the final stint, hence preventing racing.

...So why don't I see the media blowing up over it this time around? ;)
:laugh:

Funny thing is... not even the Spanish media are blowing up over it :p :