China

[Roamy]

Ok lets say China invades Taiwan.

What is your call regarding use of force

1. turn your back
2. help taiwan
3 help china

no waffeling make a pick.

I am a 1 on this one because when this one arrives it would be WWW3 to intervene. we can probably hold it off for a while with threats and pressure

[Brown, Jon Brow]

What a joyful thread. :)

[bowler]

Ok lets say China invades Taiwan.


I am a 1 on this one because when this one arrives it would be WWW3 to intervene. we can probably hold it off for a while with threats and pressure

eki should be with you

china won't

[Ian McC]

If China did I really don't think anyone would do much except blowing a lot of hot air

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Fousto - what is WWW3? :confused: WorldWideWeb 3 :erm: Sounds horrific. :bigcry:

[Roamy]

ha ha well i figured it would be bigger than the last one so why not ad a "w"
good eye brown

[Daniel]

Help Taiwan. If Taiwan comes under Chinese rule then RAM prices will go up :mark:

[Captain VXR]

Help Taiwan - China's human and animal rights records are crap

[raphael123]

Anyone got a link for me to read up on this topic? :)

[Jag_Warrior]

As far as I'm concerned, the handwriting is on the wall anyway. Screw Taiwan, it's ME that I'm worried anout. So I'm ordering a Berlitz course.

In Chinese, I want to know how to say:

Hello, may I have some water, please?
Hello, may I have some rice, please?
Hello, can you tell me where the bathroom is, please?
Hello, would you like to join me in my hotel room, please?
Hello, would you tell your brothers to take their feet off my neck, please?

The U.S would basically need the Chinese to finance any sort of miltary action against themselves. My guess is they might not be too cool with that. Ain't bein' in debt up to your eyeballs grand?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Let me get this straight Fousto. You go all nuclear to knock the stuffings out of the slimebuckets in Iraq to defend a concept of democracy, and yet you wont defend a legit success story in America's backing of a true democracy? I don't' want to see World War 3, but because America has pretty much told The Commies hands off Taiwan so vocieferiously, that is why the ChiComm's don't want to invade. The dirty little secret about Communist societies is they are more bluster than determination. They wouldn't dare, the same way the Russians rarely flexed their muscles except through proxies. The people in China are NOT stupid......they would turn on the clowns in Beiijing.

It is a nebulous question Fousto, the ChiComms wont do it....simple as that.

[millencolin]

Fousto - what is WWW3? :confused: WorldWideWeb 3 :erm: Sounds horrific. :bigcry:

no no.... instead of WideWorld of Sports

WideWorld of War...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Name: Mark
Birthday: May 23/1965
Birthplace: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Current Location: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada (15 minutes from Mosport Park)
Eye Color: Brown
Hair Color: Brown/grey (damn it!!)
Height: 6'2" (196cm)
Right Handed or Left Handed: Left
The Shoes You Wore Today: New Balance Cross Trainers
Your Weakness: Ice Cream or Steak
Your Fears: Being Broke, Being lost, not seeing my child
Your Perfect Pizza: Ground Beef, Asiago Cheese with Mozza, Mushrooms, Tomatos
Thoughts First Waking Up :D amn it, I gotta go!!
Your Best Physical Feature: My lady says my tush...
Your Bedtime: Earlier and Earlier as I get older....
Your Most Missed Memory: I forgot???
Pepsi or Coke: Coke in Canada, Pepsi in the US...apparently the formulas are different, I can taste it
MacDonalds or Burger King: Scrawny Ron McDonald...
Chocolate or Vanilla: choc
Cappuccino or Coffee: Coffee
Do you Smoke: Never
Do you Swear:I drive a big rig, what do you think?
Do you Sing: Badly
Do you Shower Daily: Try to, sometimes two times a day
Have you Been in Love: 3 times....still in the last...
Do you get Motion Sickness: not yet..
Do you think you are Attractive: for a big ole tub of goo, ya...
Are you a Health Freak: Nope...
Do you like Thunderstorms: Unless I am driving, bring em on
Do you play an Instrument: sorta did years ago
In the past month have you Drank Alcohol: of course
In the past month have you Smoked: Never
In the past month have you been on Drugs: Never, I gotta wee wee in a bottle to keep my job
In the past month have you gone on a Date: does my lady of 7 years taking me to dinner count?
In the past month have you Stolen Anything: nope
Ever been Drunk: a few times...
What do you want to be when you Grow Up: Race driver, vintage aircraft pilot
What country would you most like to Visit: Ireland? OZ? it changes daily...
Number of CDs I own: 60?Never counted to be honest
Number of Piercings: nope, I am factory stock with no modifications
Number of Tattoos :s ee above.

[Daniel]

no no.... instead of WideWorld of Sports

WideWorld of War...
Could have Max Walker as a war correspondant then :p

[Hawkmoon]

If they did invade, who will back the Chinese?

The Japanese won't because they hate each other and there's so many whales to shoot and not enough time to shoot them in. The South Koreans won't because of they want to be No.1 at table tennis and the Chinese are standing in their way. OK, the North Koreans will but I figure that the South Koreans and Japanese will keep them busy.

Europe won't and I don't think Russia will either. The Russians and Chinese have never really liked each other in the past the Russians are still p!ssed that the Chinese communists are better than their communists.

The Germans will probably take the opportunity to invade Poland again whilst everybody is looking the other way and the French used up all their nukes in the Pacific blowing up atols and such, so will have better things to do. The Swiss will pretend that nothing is going on and go skiing instead.

Australia will probably join in on the American's side but we only have two boats, six planes, one tank and 30 guys in the Army so I don't figure we'll be able to do much. :D

So it will be China and North Korea vs the US, Europe (except for Switzerland who are still pretending that nothing's happening), Japan, South Korea and Australia.

So that will mean the Allies (ie. us) will be outnumbered by the Axis (ie. them) by about 10 to 1. Hmmm.... I think option 1 sounds about right. :)

[odykas]

Peking duck rules! http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

[schmenke]

Peking duck rules! http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

:D :up:


Seriously, I doubt China would invade Taiwan, but I disagree with MIO... China certainly does have the gumption to invade if they really wanted to. Also, they have sufficient military power to do this alone, without the support from any other county. They have nothing to fear from the U.S. who currently have the bulk of their military assets tied up in Iraq, and who couldn't afford another conflict anyways.

The only reason that China won't invade Taiwan is because they realise the catastrophic economic reprocusions of doing so. China currently has the strongest growing economy and have the rest of the world (i.e. the U.S. and Europe) eating of their hands. Why jeopardize a good thing...? :mark:

[Jag_Warrior]

Well, I just hope that if the Chinese decide to invade Taiwan, they try it before George Bush leaves office. He'll show 'em how it is! Yes siree, Bob. Who knows what brain dead moron will slither into office after he leaves. But as long as he's in the Oval Office, we are as safe as lambs in a den of wolves. With his superior I.Q. and ability to out think his opponents, he'll make it look like the Chinese are knocking us back on our heels. But in truth, we'll have them JUST where we want them. Yep! Him so schmart.

Meanwhile, I'm still preparing:
Hello, may I have some chopsticks, please?
Hello, may I pull your rickshaw, please?
Hello, may I have a loan, please?

[janvanvurpa]

:D :up:


Seriously, I doubt China would invade Taiwan, but I disagree with MIO... China certainly does have the gumption to invade if they really wanted to. Also, they have sufficient military power to do this alone, without the support from any other county. They have nothing to fear from the U.S. who currently have the bulk of their military assets tied up in Iraq, and who couldn't afford another conflict anyways.

The only reason that China won't invade Taiwan is because they realise the catastrophic economic reprocusions of doing so. China currently has the strongest growing economy and have the rest of the world (i.e. the U.S. and Europe) eating of their hands. Why jeopardize a good thing...? :mark:

Exactly. The biggest investors in Fujian and Guangdong Provincies, especially the economoc powerhouse of Guangdong, is Tiawan.

There's a saying in Beijing, that goes "The only thing they care about in Beijing is Politics; the only thing they care about in Guangdong is making money"

China does not have the sealift capacity to invade but more important, they have no real reason as the two economies are interwoven now.

Of course China, like everywhere has a few crusty paranoid nationalistic dinosaurs, so they have to by tradition make noises to appease them.

Just did an informal poll of 2 citizens of PRC having lunch just there at the table, 2 different generations and both said "Nobody care or even gives it ant thought, and if you think about it the fact they developed the economy so fast has only been a benefit to us in Guangdong, but the Party has to make some noise no and then...."

I hope the morass that the geniuses at the Project for a New American Century have gotten the USA into will discredit them and they can crawl back under whatever slime cover dung heap they had been under till George Bush decide to embrace them, cause they are the ones making the most noise about "The Rising Threat from China"

[ShiftingGears]

Back Taiwan! However I am assuming that Taiwan is innocent here...

I second Raphael123 here.

[Schultz]

Schmenke is right. From the point in time where Diem opened the economy and made China capitalist, it has continued to be less likely that China would launch a full-scale invasion of Taiwan. The economies of the US and China are now so deeply entwined that a war would surely end in tears for both countries.

Politically, people continue to make noises as if there is a crisis building between the US and China, but really if anything we are seeing a more cooperative China. The leadership are not stupid, the want and need amicable ties with the US, and would have surely got some brownie points over the North Korea negotiations.

And as if we will see war over Taiwan anyway. The US has not said that it will back Taiwan in any circumstance. They say the US will defend Taiwan against Chinese invasion if the invasion is unprovoked. However, if Taiwan were to declare its independence the guarantee of US support would be absent.

The balls in Taiwan's court, and considering the state of their economy, they don't appear to be the kind to make a stupid rash move like declaring independence any time soon.

[Daniel]

If China invades Taiwan then the price of PC's will go absolutely through the roof and that will have huge effects on China's economy. China is doing too well out of things to go and invade Taiwan for very little gain. Historically when Taiwan has had an earthquake, flooding or has been hit by a Typhoon it's had a huge impact upon motherboard and RAM prices and China doesn't want this. At the same time China will not back down on the issue as it would mean a loss of face for them....

[Schultz]

Does everything have to be about computers? :/



:p :

[Daniel]

The computer industry is a big part of the world economy that's all ;) Just like instability in the middle east raises oil prices, if anything happens to Taiwan then prices of PC's go up :) Tis all I am saying ;)

[Schultz]

Prices of PC's go up, yes. But that alone is hardly going to crash the economy. The price of lots of things will go up.

[Daniel]

It's not really just the price that goes up but the fact that supply goes down. There have been times in the past when it's been extremely hard to buy PC components and although to you and I that's a minor problem it's a big thing in the big scheme of things. Imagine if Holden weren't able to get engines for their cars ;)

[millencolin]

Could have Max Walker as a war correspondant then :p

Expert comments from Bill Lawry? Live wartime commentary from Ray Rabbits Warren

what ever happened to old max walker?

[luvracin]

If they did invade, who will back the Chinese?

The Japanese won't because they hate each other and there's so many whales to shoot and not enough time to shoot them in. The South Koreans won't because of they want to be No.1 at table tennis and the Chinese are standing in their way. OK, the North Koreans will but I figure that the South Koreans and Japanese will keep them busy.

Europe won't and I don't think Russia will either. The Russians and Chinese have never really liked each other in the past the Russians are still p!ssed that the Chinese communists are better than their communists.

The Germans will probably take the opportunity to invade Poland again whilst everybody is looking the other way and the French used up all their nukes in the Pacific blowing up atols and such, so will have better things to do. The Swiss will pretend that nothing is going on and go skiing instead.

Australia will probably join in on the American's side but we only have two boats, six planes, one tank and 30 guys in the Army so I don't figure we'll be able to do much. :D

So it will be China and North Korea vs the US, Europe (except for Switzerland who are still pretending that nothing's happening), Japan, South Korea and Australia.

So that will mean the Allies (ie. us) will be outnumbered by the Axis (ie. them) by about 10 to 1. Hmmm.... I think option 1 sounds about right. :)

Just to stir the pot some more....

In this scenario, who's side would Indonesia take?

They(Indonesia's Military) would love any excuse to over-run Australia...

[Drew]

Is there anything anybody could actually do?

Nobody alone could take on China and then if they did, China could stop all exports and inports and then their economy would go haywire. Just look at all the cheap things that China produces...

[Daniel]

Is there anything anybody could actually do?

Nobody alone could take on China and then if they did, China could stop all exports and inports and then their economy would go haywire. Just look at all the cheap things that China produces...
Does China have the required Oil reserves to keep it's war machine running? Does it have enough iron ore to keep making all that steel? Nope. China knows it needs the rest of the world and that things are pretty good as they are. China has it too good to go and throw it away by trying to invade other countries.

[tstran17_88]

In Chinese, I want to know how to say:

Hello, may I have some water, please?
Hello, may I have some rice, please?
Hello, can you tell me where the bathroom is, please?
Hello, would you like to join me in my hotel room, please?
Hello, would you tell your brothers to take their feet off my neck, please?

You forgot "Hello, the snake is delicious, it tastes like chicken"

Hsieh Hsieh

[tstran17_88]

The Japanese won't because they hate each other and there's so many whales to shoot and not enough time to shoot them in. If the Japenese hate the Chinese so much, why are the Japanese investing billions of dollars in China?


http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=9100&theme=1&size=A

[tstran17_88]

Does China have the required Oil reserves to keep it's war machine running? Does it have enough iron ore to keep making all that steel? Nope. China knows it needs the rest of the world and that things are pretty good as they are. China has it too good to go and throw it away by trying to invade other countries.Actually there are some pretty huge oil reserves in China and in Russia. Only problem is the cost because of the remote locations. China is looking into alternative fuels, like landfill & digester gases.

[schmenke]

China has also signed huge contracts to import LPG from Australian suppliers.

[Schultz]

China has also signed huge contracts to import LPG from Australian suppliers.

At bargain prices too. We were dumb enough to sign a long-term contract, and since then LPG prices have risen tremendously. It's funny, because Howard thought he was some kind of genius for getting that deal done :rolleyes:

[Schultz]

Just to stir the pot some more....

In this scenario, who's side would Indonesia take?

They(Indonesia's Military) would love any excuse to over-run Australia...


Indonesia would do nothing. And if they were to do anything it would be to provide support for the US and Australia. SBY is probably about the most pro-western leader Indonesia has had. And for christ sakes. What makes you think they want to overrun Australia? :s Because they have over 200,000,000 people and need the space? riiiigght.. :/

[555-04Q2]

Ok lets say China invades Taiwan.

What is your call regarding use of force

1. turn your back
2. help taiwan
3 help china

no waffeling make a pick.

I am a 1 on this one because when this one arrives it would be WWW3 to intervene. we can probably hold it off for a while with threats and pressure

Nuke them fousto. Problem is, the USA will probably invade Taiwan for some self gain reason before China do.

P.S. Pleasant thread fousto

[ArrowsFA1]

If the Japenese hate the Chinese so much, why are the Japanese investing billions of dollars in China?
Commercial reality.

[Mark in Oshawa]

you know brain damage is just for Presidents anymore. The US invade Taiwan???55, you have to quit smoking dope, it is hurting your reasoning skills......

[Rudy Tamasz]

Help Taiwan, send arms and instructors to Uighurs and Tibetans, but don't invade the mainland China.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Rudy....there you go defending the concept of democracy and human rights....how dare you defend such noble causes. The politically correct on here will burn you at the stake. It isn't about democracy, it is about saying you care about democracy while NOT caring.....

Rudy, you are a man of principle...I like that.....but of course living in Belarus, you understand how fragile human rights and freedoms are because you live in a nation where they are tenous it best. It is only smug libreals in Western nations that don't believe that anything is worth fighting for and will appease until they have nothing...

[Eki]

send arms and instructors to Uighurs and Tibetans,
Wouldn't that be supporting "terrorism"?

[Schultz]

Help Taiwan, send arms and instructors to Uighurs and Tibetans, but don't invade the mainland China.

I think you may as well send some sunscreen and billabong board shorts to Tibet, because they aren't going to be mounting an armed independence struggle any time soon !

[Rudy Tamasz]

Mark, thanks for support. My principle is simple. If you can help a noble cause, go for it. There only should be a bit of realism to it and the "if you can" part is just important as "go for it". I was skeptical about the invasion to Iraq not because I liked Saddam, but because I seriously doubted the capacity of Americans to establish sustainable peace and democracy there. I still don't know if I was right. This is why I think they should stay out of mainland China no matter what.

Eki, I don't think anti-Chinese resistance qualifies as terrorism because the legitimacy of Chinese sovereignty over those territories is highly questionable.

[schmenke]

Democracy would destabilize China. The rest of the world would suffer from the ensuing chaos.

[Drew]

Does China have the required Oil reserves to keep it's war machine running? Does it have enough iron ore to keep making all that steel? Nope. China knows it needs the rest of the world and that things are pretty good as they are. China has it too good to go and throw it away by trying to invade other countries.

I dunno, how many countries that produce oil would happily support China?

[Sandfly]

I know most people have not realized this - but we are already in "WWW-3".

[Tomi]

I know most people have not realized this - but we are already in "WWW-3".

who is we ???

[Mark in Oshawa]

Democracy would destablize China? Schmenke...give your head a shake. If China became 6 nations tomorrow that were all democratic, we would all be better off including those living there. Living with no true human rights or freedoms is a sin before whatever higher powers you want to believe. The governors of China are not saints and we as the west have been aiding and abetting them to fill out pockets, not for any great concern for China, so lets stop the fiction that we actually care about their stability....

[schmenke]

Democracy would destablize China? Schmenke...give your head a shake. If China became 6 nations tomorrow...

There would be years of civil war beforehand.

[tstran17_88]

There would be years of civil war beforehand.
I suppose it’s better that the people are oppressed by a communist government instead? Remember Tiananmen Square? It happened 18 years ago this week.

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/06/remembering-massacre-at-tiananmen.html


Six of one, half dozen of another.

[schmenke]

I suppose it’s better that the people are oppressed by a communist government instead? ...

I wouldn't know.

My point is that the introduction of democracy in China means the break-up of the country, which would not happen peacefully.
The Chinese rulers need to govern the country with an iron fist to maintain stability.

"Opression" and "human rights" may or may not be an issue, I don't know. All I know is that in the years that I had lived and worked in China I had never seen evidence of this, although I'm sure the authorities are doing a good job of keeping this under wraps. For the most part, Chinese citizens are free to go and do as they please. The country is not what it was 18 years ago.

[Valve Bounce]

Ok lets say China invades Taiwan.

What is your call regarding use of force

1. turn your back
2. help taiwan
3 help china

no waffeling make a pick.

I am a 1 on this one because when this one arrives it would be WWW3 to intervene. we can probably hold it off for a while with threats and pressure


I would say option 1, and use extreme diplomatic pressure through UN. Then give China a moratorium of green house gas emission controls, and let the buggers gas themselves to death.

[555-04Q2]

you know brain damage is just for Presidents anymore. The US invade Taiwan???55, you have to quit smoking dope, it is hurting your reasoning skills......

You never know, they may just have some oil stashed somewhere ;)

[Schultz]

Democracy would destablize China? Schmenke...give your head a shake. If China became 6 nations tomorrow that were all democratic, we would all be better off including those living there. Living with no true human rights or freedoms is a sin before whatever higher powers you want to believe. The governors of China are not saints and we as the west have been aiding and abetting them to fill out pockets, not for any great concern for China, so lets stop the fiction that we actually care about their stability....

You know, in this world, sometimes things just cannot be perfect. If they could be perfect, maybe they would be. There are so so many countries in the Asian region that give their people hardly any more rights than those who populate mainland China. People lack real democracy in country's like Malaysia, Singapore and so on. Burma is an example of authoritarianism at its best, and others near by and not much better.

Indonesia for example, 30 years of rule by the military under Suharto. Probably up to a million were killed when militia groups and the military basically went on a rampage to kill indiscriminantly those with communist party affiliations. Between 1966 to 1998 during his reign, extra judicial killings were quite common, and you can forget about most of the normal democratic values we take for granted. He was also corrupt. But you know what, Suharto delivered economic growth similar to what we are seeing in China, and the people were generally ALOT better off following his tenure. Now the Indonesians have a very solid democratic elections process, but don't have half the economic growth they did back in the day. Corruption is still rife. Now, people are looking back at the Suharto reign as the good old days. He is revered as a hero by much of the population to this day. This is a country of 200,000,000 people we are talking about too...

My point is, people are saying we should be pushing China to clean up their act and make the country more democratic, but honestly, in some places it just doesn't work. At least not yet. And there are plenty more examples like this is Asia.

Consider this quote.

"It would not be good (returning to autocratic rule) but I cannot feed my family on democracy alone"

[tstran17_88]

You never know, they may just have some oil stashed somewhere ;) Comments like this just bite me since they mostly come from folks who think they know everything about the US, but really don't. You say stupid Americans, I say stupid foreigners.

60% of the oil we use in this country is domestic. All of the import oil we use, only 20% is from the mid-east, the other 80% is from mostly Canada, and some from South America.

There is a huge oil reserve in China, Russia also. I can assure you as soon as China can tap into it, most of it will never leave China considering the amount of oil and petro they have to import at present.

[Schultz]

Comments like this just bite me since they mostly come from folks who think they know everything about the US, but really don't. You say stupid Americans, I say stupid foreigners.

60% of the oil we use in this country is domestic.

Sorry, since when did George W join the forum??

[janvanvurpa]

Comments like this just bite me since they mostly come from folks who think they know everything about the US, but really don't. You say stupid Americans, I say stupid foreigners.

60% of the oil we use in this country is domestic. All of the import oil we use, only 20% is from the mid-east, the other 80% is from mostly Canada, and some from South America.

There is a huge oil reserve in China, Russia also. I can assure you as soon as China can tap into it, most of it will never leave China considering the amount of oil and petro they have to import at present.

Wrong, Google it and you'll have documents from summer 05 showing we import 60%.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/25/AR2005072501707.html

Bill Wouldn't Wean U.S. Off Oil Imports, Analysts Say

By Justin Blum
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, July 26, 2005; Page A01

Despite repeated calls by President Bush and members of Congress to decrease U.S. dependence on oil imports, a major energy bill that appears headed for passage this week would not significantly reduce the country's need for foreign oil, according to analysts and interest groups.

The United States imports 58 percent of the oil it consumes. Federal officials project that by 2025, the country will have to import 68 percent of its oil to meet demand. At best, analysts say, the energy legislation would slightly slow that rate of growth of dependence.


As to where it comes from, here's what the Federales say:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html
Here:
Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)
Country Mar-07 Feb-07 YTD 2007 Mar-06 Jan - Mar 2006
CANADA 1,780 1,840 1,825 1,716 1,732
MEXICO 1,621 1,358 1,475 1,697 1,722
NIGERIA 1,290 1,061 1,156 1,114 1,191
SAUDI ARABIA 1,216 1,185 1,325 1,322 1,356
VENEZUELA 1,036 1,115 1,033 1,183 1,197
ANGOLA 696 451 570 510 465
IRAQ 523 325 464 476 487
ALGERIA 501 392 484 281 228
KUWAIT 288 158 208 111 111
BRAZIL 209 103 174 123 114
RUSSIA 193 49 92 34 25
ECUADOR 191 178 214 242 281
COLOMBIA 108 73 107 170 156
LIBYA 105 63 59 40 45


So, Gringo, you were saying something about stupid foreigners???

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I know most people have not realized this - but we are already in "WWW-3".

Enlighten me?

When WW3 does start it will be the most exciting, deadly and shortest war ever :s

[CCFanatic]

WW3 is here. It is the War on Terrorism. That includes the war in Iraq, Afganistan, and the many sleeper cells throughout the world.

[Schultz]

lol. WW3 is going to be known as the 'never-ending war' then, because western nations fighting terrorism, breeds terrorism. This is not a war, this is a just the Bush doctrine in action. The democrats will win the election and then perhaps we can talk about the US returning to a more isolationist stance.

[SOD]

WW3 is here. It is the War on Terrorism. That includes the war in Iraq, Afganistan, and the many sleeper cells throughout the world.

good luck fighting it because you will need it.

I see that the USA is arming Sunni terrorists in Iraq. makes me wonder if you want this war to ever end?

[SOD]

some people should watch Yesterday's panorama program.

[Mark in Oshawa]

SOD...if the Yanks didn't help the Sunni's and the Iranians helped the Shiites, is this a better solution. You may think they are Sunni "terrorists" but they just may be legit. In Iraq, everyone is armed to the teeth it seems and bent on killing whoever their enemy is this week, and the UK and Yank soldiers are trying to keep a lid on it. One can argue all you want about the idea that maybe it was better to stay out of Iraq but they are there now, and the situation on the ground is better known by the people who are being shot at then a bunch of crypto military experts back home...

[SOD]

WellMark in Oshawa, its the military crypto experts in iraq who are running these "legit terrorists" :laugh: . The same players who were involved in Northern Ireland too. You should read up about the Force Research unit and what they'e been upto.

BTW, the Yanks are helping the SHia, who enlists in the Iraqi police service???

The yanks are worried about Iran, guess which country was shelling northern iraq last week? hint: it wasn't Iran nor the USA nor the UK.

[TOgoFASTER]

The yanks are worried about Iran, guess which country was shelling northern iraq last week? hint: it wasn't Iran nor the USA nor the UK.

Not many noticed apparently... or must just be a minor worry that Condi can fix.

One country's freedom fighters/allies, Kurds, are other countries terrorists, Kurds. They have been and now are all about building Kurdistan from day one.

It was easy enough to see this coming from the very start and why the country, a long term ally of the US, doing the shelling last week didn't go along or help with the great plan for Iraq.

Can't blame the Turks from defending their border and their people's safety against terrorists, now can we.

There is always more to be seen and understood before creating a pile of hurt half blinded by politics and the age old excuse of self defense.

[SOD]

Not many noticed apparently... or must just be a minor worry that Condi can fix.

One country's freedom fighters/allies, Kurds, are other countries terrorists, Kurds. They have been and now are all about building Kurdistan from day one.

It was easy enough to see this coming from the very start and why the country, a long term ally of the US, doing the shelling last week didn't go along or help with the great plan for Iraq.

Can't blame the Turks from defending their border and their people's safety against terrorists, now can we.

There is always more to be seen and understood before creating a pile of hurt half blinded by politics and the age old excuse of self defense.

For a minute there, I thought it was about the oil, and how Ankarra didn't want Kirkuk from being part of an independent Kurdistan. how silly of me.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well SOD, if the Turk's are going to shell the Kurd's it again says volumes of the stupidity that is rank in the Middle East and how much of this crap goes on and back to vendetta's and hatreds that go back hundred's of years. So when people blame all this violence on the invasion of Iraq, it is to excuse the petty hatreds and racial tensions that have always been there. At some point, this part of the world is going to have to face the reality their part of the world is in turmoil because people running the countries dont' care about their people. The Kurd's bought into the "liberation" of Iraq and did more to get on with normalcy than the Sunni's and Shiites and yet they still are being targeted. Proof once again there are no simple solutions in the Middle East, but I do know that the Turk's are becoming irrational on a lot of things, which is silly considering how bad they want to get into the EU...

[TOgoFASTER]

Irrational on insurgents and terrorism... imagine that.
The only real terror is our terror syndrome.

Kurds bought into nothing but a way to forward their move to their own independent state.
Oh yeah, they're on our side, without looking into that long history or reality before stepping straight into it, in any thoughtful way. Now blame it on that same history and reality. What a laugh.

BTW Oil once had no part in that history or reality, it's important now yes, but is not what motivates the Kurds in the quest for their own homeland. The problem between the Turks and Kurds, as well as the Kurds and other neighboring states, is much more in depth than just oil.

Check out the borders the Kurds would like some day... that's really interesting.

The Kurds are moving back into their city, in an Iraqi government Kurd appeasement plan the Sunni and Shiite are being moved out.
Kirkuk equals a source of rich income the Turks would rather the Kurds not have.
Let alone the fact the oil flowing through the pipelines north is very important to them, important as those that would control those same pipelines.

Iran really loves the support the US gives the Kurd insurgents in the northern part of their country as well.

Who opened the can of worms and will not be able to keep a lid on it?
Tell Condi to put a cork in it.
Didn't take Nostradamus to see the mess coming.

[SOD]

Well SOD, if the Turk's are going to shell the Kurd's it again says volumes of the stupidity that is rank in the Middle East and how much of this crap goes on and back to vendetta's and hatreds that go back hundred's of years. So when people blame all this violence on the invasion of Iraq, it is to excuse the petty hatreds and racial tensions that have always been there. At some point, this part of the world is going to have to face the reality their part of the world is in turmoil because people running the countries dont' care about their people. The Kurd's bought into the "liberation" of Iraq and did more to get on with normalcy than the Sunni's and Shiites and yet they still are being targeted. Proof once again there are no simple solutions in the Middle East, but I do know that the Turk's are becoming irrational on a lot of things, which is silly considering how bad they want to get into the EU...

George will fix it

[TOgoFASTER]

You know, now thinging about this, some just don't seem get that the Kurds are active daily in an insurgency in Turkey and have been for years now. They hit and run across the border.

[SOD]

You know, now thinging about this, some just don't seem get that the Kurds are active daily in an insurgency in Turkey and have been for years now. They hit and run across the border.

that's why there was a big demonstration on the Turkish side.

[TOgoFASTER]

^Do tell, are you speaking of that demonstration that has tanks and other millitary activities going on as we speak? ;)

[SOD]

^Do tell, are you speaking of that demonstration that has tanks and other millitary activities going on as we speak? ;)

there was a state-sponsored demonstration by the Turks. Demonstrating against terror-by-Kurdish groups. No military vehcles in sight, excpet for a few thousand Turkish flags.

[Schultz]

Well SOD, if the Turk's are going to shell the Kurd's it again says volumes of the stupidity that is rank in the Middle East and how much of this crap goes on and back to vendetta's and hatreds that go back hundred's of years. So when people blame all this violence on the invasion of Iraq, it is to excuse the petty hatreds and racial tensions that have always been there. At some point, this part of the world is going to have to face the reality their part of the world is in turmoil because people running the countries dont' care about their people. The Kurd's bought into the "liberation" of Iraq and did more to get on with normalcy than the Sunni's and Shiites and yet they still are being targeted. Proof once again there are no simple solutions in the Middle East, but I do know that the Turk's are becoming irrational on a lot of things, which is silly considering how bad they want to get into the EU...

No wonder the Kurds are getting along okay and not creating too much of a hastle... They no longer have to worry about the Iraqi army persecuting and repressing them.. even the president of Iraq is a Kurd. Things are looking much better for them these days. They seem like the big winners out of the whole American intervention. And finally they have some representation in government. Although talebani is a bit reluctant to advocate a Kurdish state, you can bet your bottom dollar that he will be pushing to give greater autonomy to the region.

Oh and btw, you can't say the Sunni's and the Kurds as if you are referring to different groups. As far as I know, the Kurds are mostly Sunni its just that a their identity as an ethnic group is more important to them than their connection to a religion.

I don't see where the Turkish are being irrational here. You have groups like the PKK crossing the border all the time targeting the army and civillians. As far as i'm concerned, the best the Kurdish could do right now is sit down, shut up, and wait for autonomy to come to them. America has shown its been willing to allow that to happen by installing Talebani.

[schmenke]

So how does the Kurdish situation affect China?

[SOD]

So how does the Kurdish situation affect China?

the PRC might invade 'cos they be needins energy to make 50c corn dogs for the wal*mart.

[TOgoFASTER]

No Wal-Mart wants 25c corn dogs they are using Kurdistan as a pawn in haggling a new lower price deal with the PRC.
Kurds say they can do it for 10c a dog.

[SOD]

No Wal-Mart wants 25c corn dogs they are using Kurdistan as a pawn in haggling a new lower price deal with the PRC.
Kurds say they can do it for 10c a dog.

Kim Jong will offer 5c for real dogmeat. :facelick:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

WW3 is here. It is the War on Terrorism. That includes the war in Iraq, Afganistan, and the many sleeper cells throughout the world.

The war on terrorism isn't WW3.

A world war is a total war between global powers that has an effect on everyone in the world.

[Peter Mandelson]

chinese space project

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R25_6P2UTwY

[Peter Mandelson]

This one is interesting

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=462967&in_page_id=1770

[kalasend]

China understands fully the cost of military action on Taiwan. But China cannot afford Taiwan becoming a normalized nation.

Because if Taiwan ever becomes a internationally regconized nation, that means the United States military influence will completely surround the maritime access of China(S.Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Phillipines, Singapore). You do not need a degree to understand what that means to China geopolitically.

China's emphasis on Taiwan is the life and death issue to the future of China as a superpower, which people have little doubt about it happening. Because of this, it does not matter whether it is communist or capitalist government, China has to get Taiwan. It is also because of this, all people in China, no matter they like the communist gov or not, stand extremely firm on issue with Taiwan. Chinese government has full support of its nation on this.



It is misconcept to think that Taiwanese people want to be independent from China. As many of you know, Taiwan and China's economies are non-seperable. Most of the upper-class Taiwanese either have companies, factories, operations in China, if not living in China most of the time. The people who support independence are usually the native Taiwan islanders, usually the farmers and factory workers who enjoy little/suffer from China's economic growth. So independence or not, itself is a hot conflict within Taiwan.


On the other hand, it does not make any sense for Taiwan to get independent from China. What Taiwan relies on the cheap Chinese labor to manufacture their technology products. Without China, Taiwan is just a resource-hunger (just like Japan) little island. The economic success of Taiwan is non-parallel to its local contents. China, however, is becoming less and less interwovened with Taiwan.

[kalasend]

You know, in this world, sometimes things just cannot be perfect. If they could be perfect, maybe they would be. There are so so many countries in the Asian region that give their people hardly any more rights than those who populate mainland China. People lack real democracy in country's like Malaysia, Singapore and so on. Burma is an example of authoritarianism at its best, and others near by and not much better.

Indonesia for example, 30 years of rule by the military under Suharto. Probably up to a million were killed when militia groups and the military basically went on a rampage to kill indiscriminantly those with communist party affiliations. Between 1966 to 1998 during his reign, extra judicial killings were quite common, and you can forget about most of the normal democratic values we take for granted. He was also corrupt. But you know what, Suharto delivered economic growth similar to what we are seeing in China, and the people were generally ALOT better off following his tenure. Now the Indonesians have a very solid democratic elections process, but don't have half the economic growth they did back in the day. Corruption is still rife. Now, people are looking back at the Suharto reign as the good old days. He is revered as a hero by much of the population to this day. This is a country of 200,000,000 people we are talking about too...

My point is, people are saying we should be pushing China to clean up their act and make the country more democratic, but honestly, in some places it just doesn't work. At least not yet. And there are plenty more examples like this is Asia.

Consider this quote.

"It would not be good (returning to autocratic rule) but I cannot feed my family on democracy alone"


Well said.
Radical political changes seldomly bring goodness, if they do at all. And they are especially destructive if brought by another country (look at Iraq).

And personally, I really piss the idea of US being the "world police".

[Mark in Oshawa]

The only point I would like to make to an excellent post Kala is that you state China would be surrounded by pro-Western nations geopolitically if Taiwan was officially recognized as a nation. The reality is that the US views it as such and only pays lip service to China's claims to Taiwan. If attacked, US foreign policy would dictate likely they would be obligated to provide aid. Whenever China gets "uppity" the US Navy all the sudden seems to do a lot of port calls in Taiwan. This is not by accident.

Also, You are correct in saying both sides need each other, and in China's case, they only really use Taiwan's status as something to complain about. I doubt VERY highly they would invade to bring it back under the mainland's control at this point even if they were willing to gamble the Yanks would stay out. Taiwan/China trade is a big part of their economy, and it is another outlet to the rest of the world they need.

One only needs to see the PR efforts they put in after Tianmenen Square to know they are sensitive to popular opinion. If the "useful idiots" and slimy fools in the free world were far less forgiving to China's human rights abuses, China would spend a lot more time NOT worrying about Taiwan and maybe looking in the mirror.

China's biggest problem is its government. Sooner or later, people there will realize their government has done more to oppress, steal and generally abuse them then is healthy, and they will want more freedoms. Look only to the oppression of the minorities and Falun Gong movements to know the butchers of Beiijing just want to play nice, but they aint nice. Taiwan is just a useful bogeyman to keep the rest of the world distracted to their real evils of oppression and crimes against humanity (their protection of Sudan in exchange for oil has kept Darfur from being solved).

Many like to blame the USA for a lot of the world's evils, but I would like to see such an examination made of the Chinese Communist Regime....

[kalasend]

China's biggest problem is its government. Sooner or later, people there will realize their government has done more to oppress, steal and generally abuse them then is healthy, and they will want more freedoms. Look only to the oppression of the minorities and Falun Gong movements to know the butchers of Beiijing just want to play nice, but they aint nice. Taiwan is just a useful bogeyman to keep the rest of the world distracted to their real evils of oppression and crimes against humanity (their protection of Sudan in exchange for oil has kept Darfur from being solved).


Chinese people know better than anybody how their government works and treats them. But like another post has said, what good is democracy if they cannot feed their families? Right now, China's wealth is very much unbalanced and many people still have to work extremely hard to catch up with the country's growth. Under these circumstances, democracy is truly not in many people's priority list.

Moreover, the USSR/Russia transition serves perfect example for the Chinese Communist Party to promote its ideology. What happened in Tiananmen Square was brutal. But I can tell you, virtually nobody in China now thinks that if then the students succeeded in forcing a polictical reform, China would have been better than it is now.

Plus, although slower than ideal, what's happening in the China's political arena now is rather healthy: entrepreneurs are allowed to join the communist party, government shifting focus from economy to political reforms, elections are allowed in smaller provinces, etc..

And when you mention Falun Gong to a Chinese, you lose a lot of your credentials in your speech because this gang does not themselves have much support in the Chinese community. It is considered by many a false religion which advocates blind and extreme worshipping of its founder, an ordinary Chinese man. The western world (especially US) uses the fact that Falun Gong is being suppressed to work against the Chinese government. What many of you don't know is how many of these fanatics commited crimes or how many families were hurt.

Simple fact is, most of us hate Falun Gong more than the communist party. Now whether some members of Falun Gong were treated inhumanly...my opinion is that, when many these Falun Gong members are so fanatic about their religion, who knows how far they can go in accusing the Chinese gov? Also, if that is truly how the Chinese gov treats people of different opinions, how come we don't hear as much from non-Falun Gong opposers to the gov? Now what, the communist gov have some special grudge to Falun Gong?

Btw, my family and especially my father was victim of the communist party suppressing many liberty of its people. I am in no way a pro-communist person. What I am telling here is just what educated Chinese person thinks of his country. And since I am now working and living in the US, I know how differently the western media conveys and sometimes filters/covers Chinese matters.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Kala, your post is interesting. I cannot say with any conviction that I have any knowledge in the way you would, being Chinese. I only know what I read in the papers and pundits here in Canada. I will say you are VERY correct in that the state has allowed economic freedom without free speech or political freedoms and to an extent, the government has made the economy grow greatly. That said, as money trickles down, sooner or later people in China will again press for more freedoms. The youth's that were crushed in Tianmenen Square were not unique and they were NOT a novelty. They have their modern counterparts Iam sure. In time, they may come about again.

As for Falun Gong, your answer partially explains why the Chinese Government has gone out of its way to crush them. They have relations to the west, and they have a "religious" element to their beliefs. Since the Communist regime see's any faith to anyone but them as a threat, I guess they figure they cannot allow Falun Gong to exist.

The Chinese Communist Regime is very much into oppressing any group pushing any form of political dissent, not just the ones with the ears of newspaper editors. An Uigher refugee with Canadian citizenship was arrested and extradited off the street in Kazakahstan while visiting family members. He now lies in jail in China for being an enemy of the state. Why? Because he belonged to a group in Canada pushing for rights for the Uigher minority in China. The oppression of the Tibetens is also well known. It just isn't Falun Gong that is a target. What is more, Chinese groups here in Canada have reported communist agents have been reporting back on "enemies" of the regime living here and efforts of cyberterrorist attacks have been perpetrated on those who emigrated and speak out against China from their new nations.

Paranoid regimes don't drop their habits unless the world makes them, and unless the Western nations really sanction China for this crap, it will continue. The fact the Olympics are there in my mind is just as ugly as giving Hitler the 36 games and the Russians the 80 games. It is a propaganda exercise to just cover up for the fact that when the chips are down, Beijing is a political animal bent on total control of political freedom and its own glorification. The fact the economy is going well is semi-laudable, for I wouldn't advocate starvation but I will say that a well fed prisoner is still a prisoner.....

China's constant meddling in other countries for their own goals is something to an extent most nations are guilty of, but the often illegal and immoral goals of some of it are distasteful. I wish like hell that the Chinese state was as eager to give its citizens freedom of thought to go with their fattening wallets. In the end, no man is free if he has no freedom to worship in the open, has freedom of his person, and is free to speak his mind without fear of the state oppressing him. When you have people saying dissidents are harvested for organs, and prison camps are often filled with people who never see the streets again without free trials, China has a LONG way to go before it truly gets the respect its culture and people deserve.

When you pull away all of which does not matter, the Chinese state has done little but be a little more efficient in providing material goods and employment than it was before. Heck, the NAZI's gave Germany full employment and a healthy economy in the 30's, but they did it by similar methods of oppression. We saw how well that worked out long term.......

[schmenke]

Falun Gong is not a religion; it is not a cult - it is a scam :dozey:

[kalasend]

Falun Gong is not a religion; it is not a cult - it is a scam :dozey:

Glad to hear from someone who is not clouded by western media :)

[kalasend]

Mark

Your thoughts are out of very good will for the people in China. But the problem is, your vision on these matters is heavily exacerbated by western media. I know that using "CNN-fed-up" to describe you probably sounds offensive but you need to understand that you sounded so, not just to me but to other Chinese friends of mine, whom I offered your posts for their reading.

China is not another Iraq or Afghanistan. Very few people are suffering from political or religious suppression, including those in Tibet.

Tibet, like Taiwan, is poor on natural resources and the integration with mainland China brings a lot of economic development to the region. What reasons do you think a normal Tibetian would have against being part of China? Not to mention that it was not the communists who first occupied Tibet, Mongolia and other minority areas. So if there is hate, it is hate between ethnicities, not politics.

And if you ask any ethnic Chinese, they would tell you that they support a integrated, strong, large China. So there you go, your problems sound more like towards Chinese people and culture rather than communists.

Ask yourself this question and a lot of puzzles will be solved: How often do high-profile political figures speak things that are different from the major interests of people who he/she represent?

If you are really concerned about China's wellness, its biggest problem is corruption. And no, democracy is far from being a solution to corruption.

[Daniel]

Mark

Your thoughts are out of very good will for the people in China. But the problem is, your vision on these matters is heavily exacerbated by western media. I know that using "CNN-fed-up" to describe you probably sounds offensive but you need to understand that you sounded so, not just to me but to other Chinese friends of mine, whom I offered your posts for their reading.

China is not another Iraq or Afghanistan. Very few people are suffering from political or religious suppression, including those in Tibet.

Tibet, like Taiwan, is poor on natural resources and the integration with mainland China brings a lot of economic development to the region. What reasons do you think a normal Tibetian would have against being part of China? Not to mention that it was not the communists who first occupied Tibet, Mongolia and other minority areas. So if there is hate, it is hate between ethnicities, not politics.

And if you ask any ethnic Chinese, they would tell you that they support a integrated, strong, large China. So there you go, your problems sound more like towards Chinese people and culture rather than communists.

Ask yourself this question and a lot of puzzles will be solved: How often do high-profile political figures speak things that are different from the major interests of people who he/she represent?

If you are really concerned about China's wellness, its biggest problem is corruption. And no, democracy is far from being a solution to corruption.
Taiwan does just fine without China thankyouverymuch. Taiwan is in the unique position to be a huuuge manufacturing centre for the IT sector. RAM, motherboards, graphics cards and most other IT products are made or at least part manufactured by Taiwan. Taiwan doesn't need natural resources. It can afford to ship materials in and ship product out at a huge profit.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Kala, I will take a lot of what you say as truth or at least, accurate to your experience. I will say this though. If the people of Tibet are doing so well, how come they dont' want to be part of China? IT isn't Western Propaganda making this up. There is unrest there if the Communist leaders of China took their foot off the necks of Tibetens. The Dalai Lama has lived in exile because he is seen as a threat of some form to the establishment in China. I didn't make this up. I don't know what he did exactly and precisely in the eyes of the Chinese leaders, but he wouldn't be heard around the world for his committments to Buddhism and Tibet's people abroad if he was advocating anything that was violent.

The feeling I get from you Kala is you feel well China is doing well, so you can overlook the fact that censorship, corruption and oppression exist in China because damn it, people have jobs. It is the same mindset that allowed good people in Germany to overlook Hitler's faults in 1933.

You are right in saying corruption is the biggest problem in China right now. You think Democracy is just as corrupt? If so, then how about a free press? Oh right, that is forbidden. Freedom to assemble and create opposing political thoughts in a peaceful manner? Forbidden. You will NEVER get rid of what ails China without some form of open expression and opposition.

Corruption is part of the human condition BUT the freedom of the press, freedom of speech and freedom to assemble for political purposes will expose and defeat corruption. A legal system dedicated to due process will enforce the law. RIght now, the Beijing government is the judge, jury and executioner on all fronts, and there is no accountability. They have to change. If not, then eventually, change will come to them. You say things are ok, but better than they were, but you are saying this from a nation with all the aspects of culture and laws that China lacks. It is very easy to say China doesn't deserve those things, but I can tell you that many in China may be scared to admit it, but they know it. They knew it in Tiamenmen Square too.....

As for Falun Gong being so harmless Schmenke, why did the ChiCom gov't freak on Chretien's boys years ago when Falun Gong protestors showed up when the Chinese Premier came to Ottawa? IF they are so harmless, why is being a member a death sentence? I have no idea on what they think, and I have little time for most religious groups, but I defend their right to exist and spout their beliefs, even if think they are out to lunch. The fact they walk around with a big bullseye says to me the gov't is scared of them. They are scared of ANY religous or quasireligous groups (see the Dalai Lama) gaining any traction.

[BDunnell]

Kala, I will take a lot of what you say a truth or at least, accurate to your experience. I will say this though. If the people of Tibet are doing so well, how come they dont' want to be part of China. IT isn't Western Propaganda making this up. There is unrest there if the Communist leaders of China took their foot off the necks of Tibetens. The Dalai Lama has lived in exile because he is seen as a threat of some form to the establishment in China. I didn't make this up. I don't know what he did exactly and precisely in the eyes of the Chinese leaders, but he wouldn't be heard around the world for his committments to Buddhism and Tibet's people abroad if he was advocating anything that was violent.

The feeling I get from you Kala is you feel well China is doing well, so you can overlook the fact that censorship, corruption and oppression exist in China because damn it, people have jobs. It is the same mindset that allowed good people in Germany to overlook Hitler's faults in 1933.

I agree absolutely with you, Mark, but can't help feeling that right-of-centre politicians in the West have also been too keen to ignore China's human rights record on the grounds that they too are unwilling to look past the way in which China is now a part of the global economy. I don't think this is very noble. It also, to my mind at least, does away with the theory often espoused that states that trading with market economies helps lead to democratisation and increasing human rights. Where is the evidence of this in China?

[kalasend]

Kala, I will take a lot of what you say as truth or at least, accurate to your experience. I will say this though. If the people of Tibet are doing so well, how come they dont' want to be part of China? IT isn't Western Propaganda making this up. There is unrest there if the Communist leaders of China took their foot off the necks of Tibetens. The Dalai Lama has lived in exile because he is seen as a threat of some form to the establishment in China. I didn't make this up. I don't know what he did exactly and precisely in the eyes of the Chinese leaders, but he wouldn't be heard around the world for his committments to Buddhism and Tibet's people abroad if he was advocating anything that was violent.

First, I did not say the Tibetans are doing so well. But if they care to do well/better at least economically, seperating with China is not the way to go. Similar thing for Taiwan.

The communist gov is suppressive to the people, be it ethnic Chinese or Tibetans, no doubt about it and I totally agree.

Instead, what I wanted to tell is that, many people in the Chinese community agrees that to change this, we do not go the same radical route as we once thought would work. Similar thing has been proven not to work in USSR. And even the surviving student leaders in 1989 tragedy agreed that they were being ideal about politics.

Note that this has absolutely nothing to do with the brutal suppression from the communist gov. There is no forgiving to that.



The feeling I get from you Kala is you feel well China is doing well, so you can overlook the fact that censorship, corruption and oppression exist in China because damn it, people have jobs. It is the same mindset that allowed good people in Germany to overlook Hitler's faults in 1933.


No, China is far from doing well but you do not yell for political reforms everyday to change that. It is easy for outsiders, sometimes including people like me, to hope/wish/ask for changes overnight. But it is only those who really really really think about implementations that realize they need to be practical and work with flow.

It is generally accepted among Chinese communities that China will first get richer, more educated and civilized, then political changes will follow.




You are right in saying corruption is the biggest problem in China right now. You think Democracy is just as corrupt? If so, then how about a free press? Oh right, that is forbidden. Freedom to assemble and create opposing political thoughts in a peaceful manner? Forbidden. You will NEVER get rid of what ails China without some form of open expression and opposition.


This is very typical foreigners view. Yes, China is far behind in terms of free press and speech. But it is also not like "critisize-the-gov-and-you-go-to-jail" kind of state. As far as I have seen, the people who got on the nerve of the communists are those who has gone to the extent that they start to organize structurally opposing force. Personally I can only show sympathy for these people. You know and you've been shown that is not going to work. Why sacrafice yourself and family to do something impractical?

See, there are people who work hard to change the political structure of China from within. And then there are these tragic heroes who tries to break a tank from outside, with eggs. It just happens that the former ideal has more market among Chinese people.

By the way, I feel that you need to distinguish something here:
1) Ask China to democratize, you are against the sinful Chinese Communist Party and for the goods of Chinese people.

2) Ask China to hands off Taiwan, Tibet, etc., you are against Chinese people(and many native Taiwanese and Tibetans who benefit from a more integrated Chinese nation) and for the goods of very very few political figures and/or extremists.

[kalasend]

As for Falun Gong being so harmless Schmenke, why did the ChiCom gov't freak on Chretien's boys years ago when Falun Gong protestors showed up when the Chinese Premier came to Ottawa? IF they are so harmless, why is being a member a death sentence? I have no idea on what they think, and I have little time for most religious groups, but I defend their right to exist and spout their beliefs, even if think they are out to lunch. The fact they walk around with a big bullseye says to me the gov't is scared of them. They are scared of ANY religous or quasireligous groups (see the Dalai Lama) gaining any traction.

Being Falun Gong member is not death sentence. There are Falun Gong members in China who live happily normally lives.

Being Falun Gong member AND participate in gatherings that get on the gov's nerves is just asking for troubles themselves.

And, quite honestly, because Falun Gong's bad reputation (including scam incidents from the founder and his family), few Chinese feel sympathy for them. If you happen to be a Falun Gong member with goodwill, hey, too bad, you chose the wrong path.

As for Dalai Lama, I don't really know much about Tibet's history. What I can tell you, again, is that there are a lot more Tibetans who are either happy, or feel non-seperable(due to marriages, business, etc) with being part of China, than the number of seperatists you hear most about Tibet from.

Similar thing for Taiwan, you hear a lot from those who claim Taiwan should be independent nation. But have you ever heard Taiwanese who say the opposite? Well, there are plenty of them as well.

[Schultz]

Can I just say how hypocritical I find US criticism of china and its lack of certain freedoms. The United States has not given a **** about democracy unless it has suited them. Just think of how many authoritarian regimes the US has propped up in favour of encouraging democracy. Hussein, the Shah of Iran, the Algerian army, Suharto etc. I can't understand why people don't see this blatent 2 facedness of US democracy promotion. It frustrates the hell out of me, because I know the US comtributed around 150 million dollars in total (from memory) to the MEPI (?) which was the principal body for democracy promotion in the 1990's in the ME. That is absoluute peanuts for America. And you know why they put so little into it? Because for the US, it has always been more important to have pro-American regimes throughout the world than to have democracy which gives new political and civil freedoms to its population, and to risk having regimes installed, that do nt reflect American interests. eg hamas, and the FIS in Algeria.

It frustrates me to hear people talk about the horrible human rights abuses in China as if it is some kind of tragedy. WAKE UP people! how about we focus our attention on Algeria, where domocratic elections did take place. However, when it became clear the Islamic Salvation Front was going to take power (GOD NO.... AN ISLAMIC STATE!!) the army took control, which resulted in a civil war which is really still going on. guess what? When push came to shove, the United States gave support to the Algerian army rather than to a political party that had legitimately gained majority support in the first round of the most ambitious democratic process in Middle eastern history. If we really care about human rights abuses we sgould be talking about situations like Algeria where 100's of thoudands have died in the civil war that followed the army's intervention.

Oh and on Tibet... don't underestimate the strength of nationalism to evoke an uprising. A lack of political autonomy in itself is reason to fight for the Tibetans. Now i don't claim to have a whole lot of knowledge on the position and environment Tibetans grow up in, but there is no reason for me to believe that these uprisings have been caused by massive discriminate human rights abuses, other than what the rest of the Chinese population suffers eg lack of political freedoms.

Given the ethnic, cultural and religious diversity of Asia, there are always going to be battles between those who want autnomy, or independence, and those who want stability and to maintain the integrity of the state. the same is happening in West Papua. The difference is Indonesian is not the next world superpower.

[kalasend]

To know how the world really is, always reduce feeding from local media.

[dchen]

Similar thing for Taiwan, you hear a lot from those who claim Taiwan should be independent nation. But have you ever heard Taiwanese who say the opposite? Well, there are plenty of them as well.

I am from Taiwan, and I can tell you that the only ones that ones unification with China are those that came from China after the civil war. Those of us that are born in Taiwan, wants Taiwan to be independent. However, I am more than happy if the current status between the two countries remain unchanged, because at the end, this is the best way for both countries. Now for those that deseparate wants to be a part of China, I think they should all just pick up their bags from Taiwan and go back to their homeland...

[Daniel]

First, I did not say the Tibetans are doing so well. But if they care to do well/better at least economically, seperating with China is not the way to go. Similar thing for Taiwan.

Stop spouting rubbish! Taiwan is not some kind of third world country. China wants Taiwan to be part of it because Taiwan is a well off country. Think before you post such crap again.

[Peter Mandelson]

Chinese to run major parts of London rail and Tube network

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=462967&in_page_id=1770

CHINA---NATION of MEGA Bridges!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=331300

The largest Terminal in the world

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=276618

BEST LOOKING Highways

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=232957

capitalist China vs communist Britain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_ch27z7m38

How China sent first man into space

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R25_6P2UTwY

Beijing extreme makeover

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGwDz5KkfmQ

Longest archbridge in the world

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDj9wl8lsHc


it seems China is doing very well

don't be jealous Mark, I'm with you ;-)

[kalasend]

Stop spouting rubbish! Taiwan is not some kind of third world country. China wants Taiwan to be part of it because Taiwan is a well off country. Think before you post such crap again.

Taiwan is not a third world country because its proximity and language advantage allows it to tap the cheap labor from China easier than any other foreign investors.

And since you want to go into these topics, try guess which group of foreign investors cause the most pollution problems and labor conflicts in China?

And which group of foreign investors are caught initiating/related to most corruption cases in China?

Also try guess which group of people was surveyed to have brought largest number of STDs from S.E. Asia into China, starting 2-3 decades ago?

Yup, you guess it right. That group of people are the ugliest culmination of a capitalist ethnic-Chinese community. But no blames to them. They are, after all, ethnic Chinese and however they behave, it is the characteristics of Chinese people.

Fact:
Taiwanese = Chinese + few decades of economic evolution

[kalasend]

I am from Taiwan, and I can tell you that the only ones that ones unification with China are those that came from China after the civil war. Those of us that are born in Taiwan, wants Taiwan to be independent. However, I am more than happy if the current status between the two countries remain unchanged, because at the end, this is the best way for both countries. Now for those that deseparate wants to be a part of China, I think they should all just pick up their bags from Taiwan and go back to their homeland...

My apology for exaggerating. But at least you're not a green advocate (ie. pro-independent) either. Anyways, if you're from Taiwan, you know what I am talking about and you know how little the western people are informed by their media about this region.

[dchen]

My apology for exaggerating. But at least you're not a green advocate (ie. pro-independent) either. Anyways, if you're from Taiwan, you know what I am talking about and you know how little the western people are informed by their media about this region.

Yeah, the coverage here in the US is very little, and don't show the big picture of the problems. Honestly, I would love to have none of my family living in Taiwan, because Taiwan is just about as messy as China, if not worse in some senses. It is still better than it was 10 years ago, where you can get punish for speaking Taiwanese in public, and can literally disappear for speaking anything negative about the government. However, the Taiwan today is just way to free (if there is such thing), and it is getting to a point that nothing can get done in the government. Honestly, I don't believe they have passed any legislation in the past 2 years. It's just a constant bickering among the parties.

I obviously don't want my family to live in China either, because I would not want anyone I care about in a country that reminds them of old Taiwan. I wouldn't myself. Honestly, I think the best thing is to wish for is for everything stay the same, but I do have a feeling that something big will happen after summer 2008, mainly because they are not allowed to do anything now without getting a huge backlash from the international community.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I agree absolutely with you, Mark, but can't help feeling that right-of-centre politicians in the West have also been too keen to ignore China's human rights record on the grounds that they too are unwilling to look past the way in which China is now a part of the global economy. I don't think this is very noble. It also, to my mind at least, does away with the theory often espoused that states that trading with market economies helps lead to democratisation and increasing human rights. Where is the evidence of this in China?

Not just Right wing politicians. Every damn Western democracy has turned a blind eye to chase the all mighty dollar. Jean Chretien, Canada's 2nd last Prime Minister who is about left of Bill Clinton and Tony Blair by a large measure just about twisted himself into a pretezl apologizing when protesters against China were even in the same town as the Chinese Premier a few years back. Human Rights abuses by China are seen in the West as something people talk about, but then economic interests seem to take over. IT is ugly, and frustrating that the world is NOT more conscienious about this stuff, but the fact remains the over 1 billion consumers of China is just too enticing a market. So we do deals with the "devil" so to speak.

As for Kala's comments on Tibet, trust me, people who have LEFT Tibet do feel that they were oppressed. Tibet was its own nation until China took it over. Would they be better off independent economics wise? Maybe not, but it should be their choice shouldn't it? As for people in China not having sympathy for the Falun Gong followers who fall afoul of the government, whether you agree with someone or not, the right of assembly is one of the principle tenets of democracy, and THAT is something the Chinese Communists will not tolerate. Personally, I don't think freedoms of any sort will come no matter how much cash is in the jean of the people unless they force the issue at some point, and yes, the outside world will have to do more to pressure the Beijing Government. I do think the free world missed a chance years ago with the crackdown in the square, and I don't think freedom to assemble and push democracy would hurt China in the way the USSR fell apart. The Collapse of Russia's economy was based more on the fact that they had NO Western investment or industry when they tried to democratize, they had rampant corruption, and the world's economy was going through a slow down. China, as corrupt as their government can be, has a robust economy and lots of Western investment and it will only prosper further if the government relaxed personal freedoms.

[kalasend]

As for Kala's comments on Tibet, trust me, people who have LEFT Tibet do feel that they were oppressed. Tibet was its own nation until China took it over. Would they be better off independent economics wise? Maybe not, but it should be their choice shouldn't it?

How do you know the ones in Tibet feel exactly the same as those who left? Again back to the question how much do you know about China?

And speaking of independence, last time I heard many in Quebec wants to be independent from rest of Canada. Yet after a public election that didn't happen.

Now, I would honestly admit I don't know Canada's history and politics. But it certainly shows that there are different voices than just the most heard ones.

By the way, may I just clarify once more: Tibet/Taiwan independence and China's democracy are two distinct and conflicting matters to China's national interest. And throughout the discussion, China does NOT equal Chinese Communist Party. Talking about these two at the same discussion absolutely does not show any hospitality to a Chinese.

[BDunnell]

How do you know the ones in Tibet feel exactly the same as those who left? Again back to the question how much do you know about China?

And speaking of independence, last time I heard many in Quebec wants to be independent from rest of Canada. Yet after a public election that didn't happen.

Now, I would honestly admit I don't know Canada's history and politics. But it certainly shows that there are different voices than just the most heard ones.

By the way, may I just clarify once more: Tibet/Taiwan independence and China's democracy are two distinct and conflicting matters to China's national interest. And throughout the discussion, China does NOT equal Chinese Communist Party. Talking about these two at the same discussion absolutely does not show any hospitality to a Chinese.

There is simply no comparison between any desires for degrees of independence in any Western country I can think of, apart (possibly) from those groups that have resorted to terrorist activity, and human rights abuses committed by Chinese governments over the years.

[donKey jote]

Stop spouting rubbish! ... Think before you post such crap again.
:rolleyes:
:dozey:

[Peter Mandelson]

Oh poor Mark, you pathetic boy

You are so anti-Chinese aren't you

You must have lost your low income manufacture job due to factories move to China

I do have sympathy onto people like you, a bit

Get well soon, good luck!

[Mark in Oshawa]

No Peter, my job is in no way related to anything happening in China actually. I am not anti Chinese AT ALL. I am however against the Communist regime that holds China in a tight grip. I am against people being part of a system that allows no rights or freedoms that we in the "western" democracies take for granted.

Kala, you don't get Quebec because you seem to insist the status quo in China is just fine. Quebec and Canada is something that is out in the open, is a bone of contention for a minority of people in Quebec who feel "oppressed". The fact they have right of assembly, the right to form their own parties, the rights any group pro or against the government may have is something you are neglecting. In China, those people in Tibet who feel they want no part of China have no right to say so, have no right to assemble and have no right to form peaceful organzations advocating independence. Quebec has had two free referendums with somewhat dubious questions and even with the subterfuge of misleading questions, has elected for the status quo. Having said that, if Quebec said YES or NO to Canada clearly in a future referendum, Canada would accept it under the current laws that were set up to ask such questions in the future. We may not like it, but that too is democracy. I may not like my Prime Minister and his party. Most of the last 25 years I have not, yet I never would advocate violent protest or or any illegal acts to change things. In China, just asking "why" to the government can invite unwanted attention and threats. Democratic freedoms are a foreign concept to the butcher's of Beijjing and that is the way they want to keep it. No dissent, no right to assemble, no free press. Amnesity International does not list China on its most "free" list nor does any other impartial organizations, so it just isnt' my opinion on what is going on. I know a little about China from a Taiwanese friend who owned a restaurant I frequented. Her business partner was from the Mainland, and he was in Canada for a reason, in that he couldn't abide what was going on, but he was able to get out. He knew challenging Beijjing's rules would only end in grief, and even tho he was pretty apolitical, he didn't like things the way they were on the Mainland.

Now do I think all Chinese are fools? No. I also think it would be naive to think people don't keep their mouth's shut for reasons that do have a lot to do with fear, but no one can tell me a nation THAT large doesn't have some legitimate dissent ; and we all know that dissent, no matter how innocent sounding to our eyes isn't tolerated there. It is as simple as that. If there was a truly free election with 2 or 3 choices, you mean to tell me people would truly vote for the status quo?

[kalasend]

In China, just asking "why" to the government can invite unwanted attention and threats. Democratic freedoms are a foreign concept to the butcher's of Beijjing and that is the way they want to keep it...................

Now do I think all Chinese are fools? No. I also think it would be naive to think people don't keep their mouth's shut for reasons that do have a lot to do with fear, but no one can tell me a nation THAT large doesn't have some legitimate dissent ; and we all know that dissent, no matter how innocent sounding to our eyes isn't tolerated there. It is as simple as that. If there was a truly free election with 2 or 3 choices, you mean to tell me people would truly vote for the status quo?

Your knowledge about China is simply way off from reality and to the negative side. Certainly, there is big gap in the country's economic and political status. But if the imbalance is really so bad like in your mind, the country would have collapsed. Read less novels.

[Peter Mandelson]

No Peter, my job is in no way related to anything happening in China actually. I am not anti Chinese AT ALL. I am however against the Communist regime that holds China in a tight grip. I am against people being part of a system that allows no rights or freedoms that we in the "western" democracies take for granted.


when "western" democracies applies to non-western countries, it result Afghanistan or Iraq

I hope China will never have "western" democracies

[Peter Mandelson]

No Peter, my job is in no way related to anything happening in China actually. I am not anti Chinese AT ALL. I am however against the Communist regime that holds China in a tight grip. I am against people being part of a system that allows no rights or freedoms that we in the "western" democracies take for granted.


most people who have brains will try to cash on the Chinese economic boom

you people who have no brain will try to whine about the communist regime on internet forums, which won't stop Chinese economy booming

Keep whining boys

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't need to read less novels. You need to quit making excuses for a government that will stomp on people who step out of line. I didn't say that the Chinese were stupid, nor do I think the place is an armed gulag. They over look a lot, and they allow a lot of freedoms to buy and acquire assets, and own properties, but everything is NOT perfect either. Economic freedoms are NOT personal freedoms. They are better than starving I will agree, but if 20 people met in a room to talk about how much they didn't like things politically, and advocated they form their own party, they would been stomped on. Most of the free world takes that right of assembly as a tenet of democracy. You think I am some rabid right winger with a dim view of China. On the contrary, I am for people being free as possible to voice their opinion and hold views within a successful free market. China has most of the free market freedoms, but voicing an opinion in China I don't think is free if it is too loud or against the status quo. Amnesty International has stated many of China's ills against its people, and Democracy Watch and other international non-partisan groups have also condemned things going on in China. They don't rely on reporters, they relie on the UN, their own investigators and dissidents for this. China is not the garden of eden, and as long as they don't give a damn about certain ideas of freedom and democracy, they will be condemned for it. It doesn't matter how many Ferrari's are sold in China....

[Mark in Oshawa]

most people who have brains will try to cash on the Chinese economic boom

you people who have no brain will try to whine about the communist regime on internet forums, which won't stop Chinese economy booming

Keep whining boys

Peter, my job will not likely change one way or the other what China does or doesn't do. I am just stating the country is run by people who would toss you in jail if they decided they didn't like what you had to say. People cashed in on the boom Hitler's Germany and were basically making blood money. I guess you see nothing wrong with that ethically....

As for your attitude about Iraq and Afghanistan not being any better off, tell a woman in Afghanistan that. Of course, there has been a lot screwed up in Iraq and Afghanistan, but lets face the reality in that there are a ton of people in both nations who would kill half their population to just get control. In fact, in both cases, Saddam and the Taliban were doing just that. Maybe Iraq is messed up, but Afghanistan for the most part is a LOT better off now than it was 10 years ago. If you don't believe that, talk to someone who was over there. Of course, you just measure human progress on how much money you made.

[BDunnell]

Peter, my job will not likely change one way or the other what China does or doesn't do. I am just stating the country is run by people who would toss you in jail if they decided they didn't like what you had to say. People cashed in on the boom Hitler's Germany and were basically making blood money. I guess you see nothing wrong with that ethically....

I shouldn't worry too much about him, not that you will. I can't remember him making a sensibly discursive post on here at all.

[BDunnell]

Your knowledge about China is simply way off from reality and to the negative side. Certainly, there is big gap in the country's economic and political status. But if the imbalance is really so bad like in your mind, the country would have collapsed. Read less novels.

I realise why it must be irritating to you when people make comments about a country of which you have more personal experience. However, you surely must realise that those of us from various political standpoints who have very serious concerns about China's behaviour find it difficult to erase from our minds images of events at Tiananmen Square. This is not a good starting point, and not without justification.

[kalasend]

Peter, my job will not likely change one way or the other what China does or doesn't do. I am just stating the country is run by people who would toss you in jail if they decided they didn't like what you had to say. People cashed in on the boom Hitler's Germany and were basically making blood money. I guess you see nothing wrong with that ethically.....

I was about to stop replying until you drag in Hitler again. You did it twice. I already wrote my father was a victim from the communists oppression so I have no favor for them. But the reality is reality and things change a lot in a decade, let alone two and three decades. How on earth is the Chinese communist party compared to Nazi/Hitler?

Ah, I got it. In your mind, the bad guys are the bad guys are the bad guys. They are all the same, aren't they?

[kalasend]

I realise why it must be irritating to you when people make comments about a country of which you have more personal experience. However, you surely must realise that those of us from various political standpoints who have very serious concerns about China's behaviour find it difficult to erase from our minds images of events at Tiananmen Square. This is not a good starting point, and not without justification.

I said already I did not disagree with all the oppression stuff, etc, etc. All I have been saying is that it's improving, and very different from what Mark_in_Oshawa thinks.

And my very first intention for posting on this thread is that, Tibet and Taiwan's independence has nothing to do with communist ruling or not. Even a democratic China will never give up territory integrity. Especially when the US is fighting for every little chance to cap China's growing power.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Kala, I didn't say they were the same, but doing business with those who made your father suffer is no different really than dealing with Hitler. It is over looking the human rights transgressions of a nation who should be above that, for the motive of pure profit. We are now not arguing what the Communists are, we are just hagglling over our price for doing business with them.

Nation states don't make trade with some they disagree with on principle, unless they have a few billion people, then we forget our principles? The Americans wont deal with Cuba, but they deal with Beijjing? It is all business, and I am saying that ethically it is hypocritical. I personally do not believe for one second Beijjing will treat people any differently if they are all rolling in cash.

As for the US capping the influence of China's economy, I think they lost that battle 20 odd years ago when they had most of the Fortune 500 nations in there to do business. Now, a lot of the Chinese economic growth is through American subsidiary companies (GM is HUGE in China) and American investment, so curbing China's growth means kicking American stockholders in the groin. I don't see that happening.

My point has always been that the government there has never held accountable for their sins, and continues not to be. Western Democracies are always held to a much higher standard for no reason that I can discern other than it is expected. Well, I see China's economic growth as impressive, but I am not a fan of their government. You say your father was a victim of their ways, yet you seem ready to condone it. Bit of a dichotomy there isn't it? Last time I looked, my views were consistent. You claim I am naive, and maybe so, but as I have stated repeatedely, I am not alone in condemning the actions of the Chinese Communist Party. Tibet, the Uighers and the Canadian citizen they snatched off the street and jailed without trial from a THIRD country, their propaganda efforts, their blocking of UN action in Sudan in exchange for oil say to me that they have a lot to answer for...and I wont stay silent just to make someone happy that people in China are now buying cars instead of bicycles. I think it is wonderful their economy is becoming developed, but human values shouldn't be sacrificed either. There is room for BOTH....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Here is ONE example of China's views on the citizenship status of people it doesn't like:

From BBC World News, August 26

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6574517.stm

Canada angry at Uighur sentence

Amnesty International says Uighurs are being wrongly persecuted
Canada has condemned the authorities in China for sentencing a Canadian Uighur rights activist to life imprisonment.
Huseyincan Celil was jailed for crimes of "splitting the motherland" and participating in terrorist groups, according to China's state media.

Celil, who was born in China but gained Canadian citizenship as a political refugee, was arrested in Uzbekistan and deported to China last year.

Canada said it was concerned about claims that Celil had been tortured.

Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay said he was disappointed at the sentence and said the case had harmed relations between the two countries.

"The stakes are very high for Mr Celil, and certainly this case has had a spillover impact on Canada's relationship with China," Mr MacKay told reporters.

CHINA'S UIGHURS
Ethnically Turkic Muslims, mainly in Xinjiang
Made bid for independent state in 1940s
Sporadic violence in Xinjiang since 1991
Uighurs worried about Chinese immigration and erosion of traditional culture
Celil was born in Xinjiang, home to the ethnic Uighur people.

Xinjiang - which is predominantly Muslim, and borders Pakistan, Afghanistan and Central Asia - has long desired autonomy from Beijing.

But Beijing insists it is part of China, and accuses militant groups of using violence in their struggle to set up an independent East Turkestan state.

Celil left the area in the 1990s and arrived in Canada as a political refugee in 2001. He was given Canadian citizenship, although this has never been recognised by China.

According to his wife, Kamila Telendibaeva, he was arrested in Uzbekistan in May 2006 and deported to China, where he was taken into custody.

Canadian officials have since been trying to gain access to him, and are angry that he had to appear at his trial - in the Urumqi Intermediate People's Court in Xinjiang - without a Canadian diplomat present.

Mr McKay is due to visit China later this month, and he has made clear that he will raise Celil's predicament during talks.

"We don't intend to let this case go," he said.

Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao said: "The case of Huseyincan Celil is an internal affair, and Canada has no right to interfere."



This is just one story, just one guy, who I think may be a problem for China. I don't know, but I do know that civilized nations don't do snatch and grab on dissidents in 3rd nations without formal legal procedure and then deny consular access when no open trial is held. Tibet has had issues since they were conquered by Mao's army in 1950. I suppose the only thing that saved Taiwan was the Formosa straight. People can trade with China, go there, visit Beijjing for the Olympics, do what they like; but I don't think I am naive when I condemn the Communist leadership for the acts they perpetrate on their own, and if they will do that to their own citizens, one wonders how much they really care about anyone outside of China......

[BDunnell]

Kala, I didn't say they were the same, but doing business with those who made your father suffer is no different really than dealing with Hitler. It is over looking the human rights transgressions of a nation who should be above that, for the motive of pure profit. We are now not arguing what the Communists are, we are just hagglling over our price for doing business with them.

Nation states don't make trade with some they disagree with on principle, unless they have a few billion people, then we forget our principles? The Americans wont deal with Cuba, but they deal with Beijjing? It is all business, and I am saying that ethically it is hypocritical. I personally do not believe for one second Beijjing will treat people any differently if they are all rolling in cash.

As for the US capping the influence of China's economy, I think they lost that battle 20 odd years ago when they had most of the Fortune 500 nations in there to do business. Now, a lot of the Chinese economic growth is through American subsidiary companies (GM is HUGE in China) and American investment, so curbing China's growth means kicking American stockholders in the groin. I don't see that happening.

My point has always been that the government there has never held accountable for their sins, and continues not to be. Western Democracies are always held to a much higher standard for no reason that I can discern other than it is expected. Well, I see China's economic growth as impressive, but I am not a fan of their government. You say your father was a victim of their ways, yet you seem ready to condone it. Bit of a dichotomy there isn't it? Last time I looked, my views were consistent. You claim I am naive, and maybe so, but as I have stated repeatedely, I am not alone in condemning the actions of the Chinese Communist Party. Tibet, the Uighers and the Canadian citizen they snatched off the street and jailed without trial from a THIRD country, their propaganda efforts, their blocking of UN action in Sudan in exchange for oil say to me that they have a lot to answer for...and I wont stay silent just to make someone happy that people in China are now buying cars instead of bicycles. I think it is wonderful their economy is becoming developed, but human values shouldn't be sacrificed either. There is room for BOTH....

I agree.

While I have no desire to see every country in the world turning into a clone of the USA or similar, and while those of us living in democratic Western nations realise that our methods and systems are far from perfect, I cannot understand how anyone can consider the situation in China to be satisfactory. Many people there may be perfectly happy, but what else do they know other than how things have been in China since time immemorial?

However, I also agree that, as East Germany has proved in particular, the issue of how people feel in the event of a totalitarian regime coming to an end is a very complex one, because not everyone is automatically happy and grateful, and with good reason. This would surely be the case in China, albeit multiplied.

[Peter Mandelson]

I shouldn't worry too much about him, not that you will. I can't remember him making a sensibly discursive post on here at all.

LOL China will soon replace Germany and becoming third biggest economy in the world, within 2007 I believe, and this is not a sensibly discursive post either

Hmm

[Peter Mandelson]

you just measure human progress on how much money you made.

OH yes it's all about how much money you, and I can make

what China need is a Singapore style democracy, a semi-dictatorship
to curb corruption and keep Chinese economy prosper

western democracy apply to China is doom to fail
China never have full democracy in is 5000 years of history anyway, so why now

the Singapore founder, Lee Kuan Yew, in western media he is a dictator, western media is also where all your source come from, in majority of Singaporean eyes he is an idol, he makes Singapore from one of the poorest to one of the richest, so what if he is a dictator

[Mark in Oshawa]

OH yes it's all about how much money you, and I can make

what China need is a Singapore style democracy, a semi-dictatorship
to curb corruption and keep Chinese economy prosper

western democracy apply to China is doom to fail
China never have full democracy in is 5000 years of history anyway, so why now

the Singapore founder, Lee Kuan Yew, in western media he is a dictator, western media is also where all your source come from, in majority of Singaporean eyes he is an idol, he makes Singapore from one of the poorest to one of the richest, so what if he is a dictator


Well first off, China isn't Singapore. A few million in a city state vs over 1.2 billion people makes comparsions almost laughable. I don't approve of some of what goes on in Singapore, but people come and go from there on their free will, and Malaysia next door provides options for those who disagree with Lee Kuan Yew. Also, Mr. Yew doesn't have a secret police service and he doesn't crack down on religious freedoms. So again, comparisions are weak. Doesn't excuse Yew, but it says once again things are not what they seem.

I guess Kala should be saying something soon. I have been accused of hating Chinese, or at the least, not wanting them to develop. I have been told I am naive, yet Mr. Mandelson seems to think the Chinese don't deserve democratic freedoms. Maybe he thinks they are too stupid? Maybe he thinks they are not worthy of it? Funny Pete, someone allows you to spout off your opinion. Could it be that only people such as yourself deserve such freedoms? What a load of crap. China may never have a Western Style Democracy. They may never have in many ways what we call freedom. That though, doesn't mean they don't deserve it, and they don't deserve the freedom of expression, religion, assembly and protest.

China allows some of those freedoms in Hong Kong. Why? They know the people of Hong Kong know better, and will and have protested any clamp down by the government in Beijjing. It CAN be done, just those running the show there don't want it to spread. Might give people ideas, people who might want a say in running the country. People who might want the right to join goofy religious/spiritual groups. People who might think the rampant corruption through the PLA and government is crap, and want to change things. Wait though, Peter Mandelson says you are not ready. Kala says, it is ok, you people will at least have a job and can buy a car. Isn't that nice? Erich Honecker used to say the same things I am sure....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Democracy isn't just for nations that are white, christian, and western. It is for any group of people who realize it is the only true way of allowing personal freedom while controlling society to an acceptable degree. Is it perfect? God knows it is NOT perfect. IT is a crappy system at times, but the freedoms it provides allow human dignity and the freedom to pursue goals, dreams and yes, wealth. In Today's China, you have wealth, mainly in the hands of the connected, and yes, a burgeoning middle class, but it is a society that will take it all away in a heart beat if you are "unreliable." What is more, the regime running it shows no care nor concern to the wishes of other nations, and the rules of civilized discourse when it suits its purposes. So I will keep saying so, and I will back the efforts of groups such as Amnesty International to bring injustices and oppression by the Communists in Beijjing to light. Contrary to what Peter thinks, somethings matter just as much as money, and only someone who has always had freedom would be as foolish to say money is the only concern.

[Peter Mandelson]

OH Mark

please go back to page 3 and read Schultz post about Indonesia

"It would not be good (returning to autocratic rule) but I cannot feed my family on democracy alone"

Indonesia has democracy , Singapore hasn't
Indonesia has human right, Singapore hasn't
Indonesia has free speech, Singapore hasn't
Indonesia has press freedom, Singapore hasn't

you will probably choose to live in Indonesia over Singapore
you have been brainwashed by western media that democracy is better than everything else

you even said if China split to six countries and all have democracy the world would immediately be a better place

No Mark, no matter how much you whine on internet forum about China, China will stay in one piece and become the biggest economy in the world

p.s. many columnist in China say the government should follow Singapore example to tackle corruption, so i don't see anything wrong to compare China to Singapore, or Indonesia

[Peter Mandelson]

I don't approve of some of what goes on in Singapore, but people come and go from there on their free will, and Malaysia next door provides options for those who disagree with Lee Kuan Yew.


HAHAHA Malaysia is one of the most racist countries in the world

Oh actually a lot of corrupted Chinese officials have flew to Canada to avoid charges brought by the CCP, oh yeah in the eye of Amnesty International Chinese court is a joke, no wonder they have all flew to Canada!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Peter, are they corrupt or does Beijjing just say they are? I would bet a fair trial would show it one way or the other, but you don't have to be guilty in China, just guilty of not liking the government or be in their disfavour.

As for Malaysia being racist or Indonesia or Singapore. I choose not to live in any of the three. I don't think democracy is the be all and end all, but my point is you just don't over looklook someone else getting the shaft because you want to make a buck either. IT is called ethical and civilized behaviour. There are many democracies that are not much economically, but in time, they get to where they have to go. China has needed strong rule for years because it is a large nation and it needed a lot of development, but now they have reached the economic take off point, they can reform their institutions and allow a more open policy.

As for my saying maybe if China split 6 ways and were democracies, the world would be better off, I doubt it will happen either. I don't think change comes quickly to China, but at the same time, I don't condone thugs running a nation just so I can make a buck. We have established what you are now Peter, we I guess are just haggling over the price....

[BDunnell]

LOL China will soon replace Germany and becoming third biggest economy in the world, within 2007 I believe, and this is not a sensibly discursive post either

Hmm

What relevance this has to anything, I have no idea.

[BDunnell]

what China need is a Singapore style democracy, a semi-dictatorship
to curb corruption and keep Chinese economy prosper

How utterly depressing. No country needs a semi-dictatorship. I don't think this is an unduly idealistic statement.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Oh stop being Idealistic like me Mr. Dunnell, don't you know there is MONEY to be made?? That is what wise Peter keeps telling us. He keeps saying China doesn't need freedoms. I guess he feels they are not capable of looking after themselves and they need a nanny state to look after them?

There is no such thing of course as a semi-dictatorship. You either have one, or you don't. Just some are more benign in what freedoms they tolerate.

[BDunnell]

This is obviously why I am so poor. I haven't forced the deportation of enough people who disagree with me.

[Peter Mandelson]

How utterly depressing. No country needs a semi-dictatorship. I don't think this is an unduly idealistic statement.

No semi-dictatorship? then lets just says Singapore is full-dictatorship under dictator LKY and his son
BUT THIS IS WHAT MAKE SINGAPORE FROM ONE OF THE POOREST TO ONE OF THE RICHEST, DON'T YOU GET IT?

dictatorship is good as long as the dictator is good

Dubai is running after dictatorship, by the ruling royal family
and thats what make Dubai a successful story

if Singapore and Dubai has western democracy, they would not achieve the success they have now, same goes to China, because most Chinese people care about money more than politics, if you go to China and talk to the people, they talk about shares and stocks, NOT CCP

[andy 123]

:) :) :) :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

No semi-dictatorship? then lets just says Singapore is full-dictatorship under dictator LKY and his son
BUT THIS IS WHAT MAKE SINGAPORE FROM ONE OF THE POOREST TO ONE OF THE RICHEST, DON'T YOU GET IT?

dictatorship is good as long as the dictator is good

Dubai is running after dictatorship, by the ruling royal family
and thats what make Dubai a successful story

if Singapore and Dubai has western democracy, they would not achieve the success they have now, same goes to China, because most Chinese people care about money more than politics, if you go to China and talk to the people, they talk about shares and stocks, NOT CCP

Pete....get it into your head. If you WENT to China and ASKED them, of course they would say that. No one wants to be the nail sticking up. So cease this fiction people WANT to be told to shut up and fly right....people who are free to speak their minds about what it is like to live in that sort of situation will tell you that at some point, they know they have to just bite their tongue. A LOT.