2024 - New Point Scoring System

[Sulland]

This issue deserve it own thread!

Can anyone explain the thinking behind the system, and why it ended up as is?
If you already now have proposals for adjustments, if you agree with the purpose, but not the current version?

Or shall FIA just bury it already now, and go back to how it was?

[flat_right]

I think this has been suggested here before that I really like Power Sunday idea. It would be like the year before but instead of pushing just on the last stage, we would have multiple stages, where the drivers who want, can drive for points.

So the overall would be 25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1 and for Power Sunday, it would be 7-5-3-2-1 (or make it 6 instead of 7, if we don't want that 2nd can get the same amount as the winner). So the maximum that the second place can get is 18+7=25.

[meh]

I think this extra stimulation for Sunday is good, but just points for Sunday are out-of-scale and too valuable. So pretty much +1 for what flat_right wrote.

[seb_sh]

So apparently they saw Sunday cruising as an issue so they came up with this system.

flat_right's suggestion would be pretty good and here's couple of others i have seen that I liked:

A. Keep the Power Stage as is but make the Sunday stages before it count as qualifying for choosing PS start order. The fastest driver on sunday stages chooses his road position first and so on, make it a show for rally tv. It offers some incentive to drive faster on Sunday and creates some build up before the PS but doesn't fundamentally change the rally. Of course not all drivers would push but if you want PS points you can't go slow.

B. If you want to go full show then the rally ends Saturday, there is a podium, winner gets 25 points in the bank. Then Super Sunday is like a sprint of about 50 km with times and standings starting from 0 and no connection to the main rally with 6-5-4-3-2-1 points.

[AndyRAC]

Cruising is a part of motorsport, most series will have it at the end of races where there are big time gaps......That's just how it is...accept it. No other series has decided to change their points system to stop it.......(though most other series have decent entries).

It's another sign that those running the WRC really don't know what they're doing.......

[Morte66]

I think it was intended to stop Sunday mornings where everybody was cruising to the power stage. I think that was a real problem, and it has succeeded at fixing that.

But... beware of unintended consequences. I think it is now over-valuing Sunday. And, whilst I'm not bothered, it appears distressing to most fans that the overall winner doesn't get the most points.

As to a solution...

First, I think that anybody who says "it's simple, just..." is a prize idiot. It's not simple.

Otherwise, a couple of thoughts:

- The FIA seem very proud of the fact that the new system awards 30 points for winning everything, like the old. I don't think this is important. Maybe it's nice for comparing points from year to year, but I wouldn't sacrifice anything for it.

- Anything that gives points per stage invites collusion. I'll push in in SS17 and you push in SS18. The current power stage is OK in that sense because it only happens once, there's nothing to trade for.

- I sympathise with "we don't need a power stage anymore, it's redundant with Super Sunday". But it's become a sponsorship thing, it's "The Wolf Power Stage" not "the power stage". It ain't going away, the most we'll see is scaling back to 3-2-1.

[Backa]

25 points for rally winner, if he gets 15+6+3 from system below, give him extra point, if he gets 15+1+0, extra 9 points.

15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1 at the end od saturday, as long as drivers finish whole rally.

6-5-4-3-2-1 for accumulated sunday.

3-2-1 for power stage.

It will keep most of cruising reduction benefits while giving biggest point reward for win.

[Lenno]

Long time reader, first time poster of this forum.

I agree with the rationale of changing the points system but not wholly convinced by what has come up with. My two cents worth is as follows:

1) Overall classification (end of Sunday). Points to the top 10 finishers on the following scale - 20, 15, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1

2) Power Stage points as current 5, 4, 3, 2, 1

3) Best Stage performance points bonus - 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Essentially the top 5 stage performers get the bonus points. To apply this to Sweden it would be 5 (Rovanpera for 5 stage wins), 4 (Lappi for 4 stage wins), 3 (Neuville for 3 stage wins), 2 (Evans for 2 stage wins) and 1 (Katsuta for 1 stage win - same as Tanak/Linnamae/Fourmaux so then it would be most 2nd places as a tiebreak, or most 3rd places etc to break the tie).

I think this would make it much more difficult for the overall rally winner to not get the most overall points at the end as they are likely to have several stage wins in order to win the rally so would typically end up with at least 22/23 points before any power stage points are added. Also, it would incentivise pushing throughout as every stage counts towards points.

For Sweden the points under this system would be: Lappi 24 (20+0+4), Evans 21 (15+4+2), Fourmaux 12 (12+0+0), Neuville 16 (10+3+3), Rovanpera 10 (0+5+5), Tanak 2 (0+2+0), Katsuta 2 (0+1+1). This feels generally fairer and Lappi ends up scoring the most points!

[Jarek Z]

Cruising is a part of motorsport, most series will have it at the end of races where there are big time gaps......That's just how it is...accept it. No other series has decided to change their points system to stop it.......(though most other series have decent entries).

It's another sign that those running the WRC really don't know what they're doing.......

Exactly! And what's more - cruising is a part of most other sports, not just motorsport. If a football team leads the match 5-0 after 70 minutes, do you think they play as intensively as at the beginning of the game? Usually they just control the game, manage the good result and enter some young players. Or if a 5000m runner leads by 30 seconds on the last lap, do you think he is giving his all throughout the whole distance? The same with basketball, swimming, marathon, etc. It has always been like that. Why is it suddenly a problem?

[CeskyOndra]

I think this has been suggested here before that I really like Power Sunday idea. It would be like the year before but instead of pushing just on the last stage, we would have multiple stages, where the drivers who want, can drive for points.

So the overall would be 25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1 and for Power Sunday, it would be 7-5-3-2-1 (or make it 6 instead of 7, if we don't want that 2nd can get the same amount as the winner). So the maximum that the second place can get is 18+7=25.

If we want some change, then this is it.. No complicated, so simple.. Absolutely agree man.

[CeskyOndra]

Others solutions I have seen here are so so complicated, that even I dont understand.

[wyler]

I think this has been suggested here before that I really like Power Sunday idea. It would be like the year before but instead of pushing just on the last stage, we would have multiple stages, where the drivers who want, can drive for points.

So the overall would be 25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1 and for Power Sunday, it would be 7-5-3-2-1 (or make it 6 instead of 7, if we don't want that 2nd can get the same amount as the winner). So the maximum that the second place can get is 18+7=25.

powerstage will stay. i'd go with this general idea with the power stage taken into account...

[Backa]

If we want some change, then this is it.. No complicated, so simple.. Absolutely agree man.

Current system create more incentives to push also at the end of saturday, not only on sunday. We saw that in Monte Carlo where Neuville and Ogier were very close and fought for extra 3 points instead of keeping things safe and waiting for sunday.

Keeping it while securing rally winner gets most points makes more sense for me.

It's also not that complicated, no one that actually enjoys WRC will stop watching just because point system needs little more time to understand.

[HKSjbg]

Long time reader, first time poster of this forum.

I agree with the rationale of changing the points system but not wholly convinced by what has come up with. My two cents worth is as follows:

1) Overall classification (end of Sunday). Points to the top 10 finishers on the following scale - 20, 15, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1

2) Power Stage points as current 5, 4, 3, 2, 1

3) Best Stage performance points bonus - 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Essentially the top 5 stage performers get the bonus points. To apply this to Sweden it would be 5 (Rovanpera for 5 stage wins), 4 (Lappi for 4 stage wins), 3 (Neuville for 3 stage wins), 2 (Evans for 2 stage wins) and 1 (Katsuta for 1 stage win - same as Tanak/Linnamae/Fourmaux so then it would be most 2nd places as a tiebreak, or most 3rd places etc to break the tie).

I think this would make it much more difficult for the overall rally winner to not get the most overall points at the end as they are likely to have several stage wins in order to win the rally so would typically end up with at least 22/23 points before any power stage points are added. Also, it would incentivise pushing throughout as every stage counts towards points.

For Sweden the points under this system would be: Lappi 24 (20+0+4), Evans 21 (15+4+2), Fourmaux 12 (12+0+0), Neuville 16 (10+3+3), Rovanpera 10 (0+5+5), Tanak 2 (0+2+0), Katsuta 2 (0+1+1). This feels generally fairer and Lappi ends up scoring the most points!

Remember when Colin McRae won the Safari Rally without even taking a stage win? That was a calculated strategy to take the win on a tough event. Granted WRC rallies are nothing like as tough as an old-style Safari, but it is still possible and creates an interesting talking point every once in a while. Even Richard Burns had an ambition to win a WRC title without taking a win all season, having taken just the one win in his title winning year.

Now there’s this modern day obsession with every single moment must be ACTION! ACTION! ACTION! We can’t possibly have a moment where anybody lets up the pace otherwise millions of eyeballs will immediately switch off and the sport will die!

To me it’s all just more steps towards homogenising the WRC in the hope that every event will be as exciting as the last.

A point on specifically Rally Sweden, someone on the Youtube comments put it quite well: Lappi had earned the right to take less risks on Sunday to guarantee the win for him and the team - why should that strategy result in fewer points than 2nd place?

[Backa]

Now there’s this modern day obsession with every single moment must be ACTION! ACTION! ACTION!

Trying to make latter stages of rally to be more eventful instead of risk-free cruise is not really obsession. It is common sense, rally is professional sport, it has also business side and care about viewiership.



Lappi had earned the right to take less risks on Sunday to guarantee the win for him and the team - why should that strategy result in fewer points than 2nd place?

I agree that rally winner should get most points and point systems that don't acknowledge that are too extremely focused on "show" but I also think that leader or any other driver who has safe advantage with few stages to go should have some extra incentive to keep pushing. It's healthy balance between sport side of things and business/viewiership side of things.

[WRCStan]

Cruising is a part of motorsport, most series will have it at the end of races where there are big time gaps......That's just how it is...accept it. No other series has decided to change their points system to stop it.......(though most other series have decent entries).

It's another sign that those running the WRC really don't know what they're doing.......

WRC decided to change their points system. They know exactly what they're doing. That's just how it is, accept it.

Or what are you going to do about it?

[Kenneth]

I think this has been suggested here before that I really like Power Sunday idea. It would be like the year before but instead of pushing just on the last stage, we would have multiple stages, where the drivers who want, can drive for points.

So the overall would be 25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1 and for Power Sunday, it would be 7-5-3-2-1 (or make it 6 instead of 7, if we don't want that 2nd can get the same amount as the winner). So the maximum that the second place can get is 18+7=25.

That wouldn't really solve much, as it would make sense to push on Sunday only for drivers who retired before. That wouldn't fix cruising caused by 1 minute or so gaps.

Imo the best system would be to get rid of PowerStage and instead distribute the points for overall standings. Make it 5-3-1 for example. But yeah that won't happen, but imo it would be a solution.

Or to get it more simple: Just give the overall winner 5 extra points. But that would make too much difference between P1 and P2 if someone had perfect rally like Neuville on Monte.

Or 3rd solution, give less points on Sunday. Make it 5-4-3-2-1 and 3-2-1 for PS.

[HKSjbg]

Trying to make latter stages of rally to be more eventful instead of risk-free cruise is not really obsession. It is common sense, rally is professional sport, it has also business side and care about viewiership.

I would counter that with what I've seen on a lot of comments on Youtube, instagram etc. that 'Lappi should have pushed right to the end'. And I feel like that is the thinking the rule-maklers had when creating this system - because if he doesn't push until the last stage he doesn't deserve 25 points clearly. That to me falls into this obsession that 'every driver should push 100% every kilometre of the rally because otherwise we won't have enough entertainment to fall back on.'

Motorsports rule-makers these days (not just WRC) are too afraid of an event being a tense, hard to predict affair on occasion and think the solution is it must be 100% action the whole time. Instead there is a depth of different outcomes that can be allowed to happen in all forms of motorsport which help to make it even more exciting when you have an event which naturally results in two or more drivers going toe-to-toe until the very end.


...I also think that leader or any other driver who has safe advantage with few stages to go should have some extra incentive to keep pushing...

Why? Take the old motorsport adage of 'the aim is to win going as slowly as possible.' I've bastardised that somewhat, so maybe someone can correct me and if it was Moss, Fangio or Lauda who said it. Sometimes you will have to push right until the end because your closest competitor is that closely matched with you that weekend. Other times you will be able to build a healthy lead then for the rest of the event perhaps reliability concerns or the rough nature of the event means it is sensible for you to not risk losing yourself and your team a win. To me there is no justification for a sport to say 'but that approach will earn you fewer points, that way of winning rallies/races is now frowned upon so get a wriggle on.'

The problem is the overall competitiveness of the sport, not whether the drivers have incentive to drive at a particular pace at a particular part of the event.

[WRCStan]

How about two championship titles, one of the endurance/touring kind as tradition; and one of the sprint/stage kind, made of every stage being a power stage. Include that in mixing up the events and itineraries.

[HKSjbg]

WRC decided to change their points system. They know exactly what they're doing. That's just how it is, accept it.

Or what are you going to do about it?

And what are you doing about it Stan? I'm autistic and even I could see the point Andy is making :laugh: It seems like you will accept whatever rule changes WRC will make because 'they know what they are doing'. The counter argument to that is why should a controlled cruise to the end be a 'wrong' way to win? It happens all the time and we can appreciate that it was still not easy and admirable that the driver is able to achieve that. Like how Colin McRae won the 1999 Safari Rally without taking a single stage win - it is far beyond the ability of any of us here to achieve that and necessary to bring the result home.

[Backa]

To me there is no justification for a sport to say 'but that approach will earn you fewer points, that way of winning rallies/races is now frowned upon so get a wriggle on.'

Fan interest is justification for that, check last few pages from last year Rally Japan thread on this forum and you should understand why people who invest their money into WRC want to avoid borefests like that.

The more boring and uneventful WRC rallies we will have, the smaller chance to grow, get new fans, sponsors, manufacturers etc. Not many would care about old motorsport adages, they would just go to watch something else.

Trying to make it more interesting is good thing but those attempts still needs to be balanced and take into consideration competitive spirit of rally to some extent. I doubt people will care that much if Lappi get only 1 point more than Evans in Sweden but rally winner still needs to get more than anyone else. Otherwise any excitement gained from more interesting second half of rally is lost among criticisms of too unfair point structure.

[seb_sh]

Fan interest is justification for that, check last few pages from last year Rally Japan thread on this forum and you should understand why people who invest their money into WRC want to avoid borefests like that.

The more boring and uneventful WRC rallies we will have, the smaller chance to grow, get new fans, sponsors, manufacturers etc. Not many would care about old motorsport adages, they would just go to watch something else.

Trying to make it more interesting is good thing but those attempts still needs to be balanced and take into consideration competitive spirit of rally to some extent. I doubt people will care that much if Lappi get only 1 point more than Evans in Sweden but rally winner still needs to get more than anyone else. Otherwise any excitement gained from more interesting second half of rally is lost among criticisms of too unfair point structure.

The problem with what happened in Japan does not lie with the points but with the pitiful state the series is in. This points system is like putting a band-aid on cancer.

[mknight]

Simple fix. There need to be overall points awarded for total time after Sunday. Ditch Saturday points and move them to the end.

An adjustment could be to increase these back to "normal" levels (25-18-15 etc).


Right now you get trophy for overall time which is not connected with points at all. You can get "winner"points for Saturday and then lose 20 places on Sunday without consequence.

[HKSjbg]

people who invest their money into WRC want to avoid borefests like that.

I agree with that statement in principle. But the solution should be understanding what it is about certain formats/tech regs/cost issues (i.e. resultant entry numbers) which causes those issues.

An incredibly difficult question to answer I know but probably a more elegant solution will work and have multiple benefits rather than a contrived points system to try and force a situation.

[WRCStan]

And what are you doing about it Stan? I'm autistic and even I could see the point Andy is making :laugh: It seems like you will accept whatever rule changes WRC will make because 'they know what they are doing'.

I don't mind people's opinions, it isn't about his or mine. What I don't like is when people bring a toxic aggression to the forum that spreads and everybody starts with the low quality posts. I didn't read his post as in jest, but if it was then so was mine. Does Andy have the stones to say that out loud in the WRC offices? Probably not. And we all know what is he going to do about it all - keep watching and whinging.

What I'm going to do about it? I can accept this, and probably more changes, until there's the one rule change I disagree with and turn off. Same as everybody here including you. I won't be yelling to a discussion forum that everybody needs to change their opinion to match mine because they are wrong, or insulting the human beings involved like a two year old trying to get their own way.


The counter argument to that is why should a controlled cruise to the end be a 'wrong' way to win?

I don't believe I ever said it was. It's not. And FWIW not all cruising is to the win. However, I do think it is unwatchable. I've said many times here that I never bothered with Sunday stages in previous seasons.

[Backa]

The problem with what happened in Japan does not lie with the points but with the pitiful state the series is in. This points system is like putting a band-aid on cancer.

Of course improving point system is not something that solve all problems within WRC and I doubt anyone disagree with that but Japan 2023 having current point system (with additional rule ensuring winner gets more points than others) would make it more interesting to watch than it was.

[Jarek Z]

Why? Take the old motorsport adage of 'the aim is to win going as slowly as possible.' I've bastardised that somewhat, so maybe someone can correct me and if it was Moss, Fangio or Lauda who said it.


"To finish first, you must first finish." - Juan Manuel Fangio
https://pl.pinterest.com/pin/167266573638576005/
Is that what you meant?

[HKSjbg]

I don't mind people's opinions, it isn't about his or mine. What I don't like is when people bring a toxic aggression to the forum that spreads and everybody starts with the low quality posts. I didn't read his post as in jest, but if it was then so was mine. Does Andy have the stones to say that out loud in the WRC offices? Probably not. And we all know what is he going to do about it all - keep watching and whinging.

What I'm going to do about it? I can accept this, and probably more changes, until there's the one rule change I disagree with and turn off. Same as everybody here including you. I won't be yelling to a discussion forum that everybody needs to change their opinion to match mine because they are wrong, or insulting the human beings involved like a two year old trying to get their own way.



I don't believe I ever said it was. It's not. And FWIW not all cruising is to the win. However, I do think it is unwatchable. I've said many times here that I never bothered with Sunday stages in previous seasons.

OK I interpreted it more like ‘here are some hard facts about motorsport and sport in general, so why did the WRC see it as a problem that needs addressing’ as a discussion point to why the WRC commission decided to make this change. Not as a rude response to people whining about this issue (from either side of the fence).

I honestly think a lot of us, you and I included, would actually have the stones to say “no I don’t actually like this points system” and give a measured answer if pressed why. What I wouldn’t have the stones for would be saying driver X is crap and doesn’t deserve their seat :D

At the end of the day this is just a discussion forum with no bearing on what the WRC Commission does - perhaps social media comments get more attention from them, I don’t know. But I get it, sometimes comments can come across with no sense of jest as may or may not have been the intention.

[HKSjbg]

"To finish first, you must first finish." - Juan Manuel Fangio
https://pl.pinterest.com/pin/167266573638576005/
Is that what you meant?

Something like that, but I think it was more about going as slow as possible to still beat everyone else!

[seb_sh]

Something like that, but I think it was more about going as slow as possible to still beat everyone else!

Niki Lauda: “The secret is to win going as slowly as possible”

Some say it was Fangio and Lauda was just quoting.

[HKSjbg]

Niki Lauda: “The secret is to win going as slowly as possible”

Some say it was Fangio and Lauda was just quoting.

That’s it. I was convinced it was Moss saying “The aim is to win by finishing in the least amount of time but as as slowly as possible”

[masa90]

This new pointsystem is a joke. Just really makes the whole sport look small time lol. It really reeks of panic when no idea what to do really.

[AndyRAC]

This new points system is a joke. Just really makes the whole sport look small time lol. It really reeks of panic when no idea what to do really.

It's yet another poor decision by those in charge; they don't appear to understand the fundamental principles of the sport. When the runner up gets more points than the winner, then you know the sport has a problem.....

[denkimi]

They could have easily stopped cruising without messing up the entire points system. just give everyone new tyres for the powerstage and give one point extra for every stage won.

[HKSjbg]

Elfyn Evans opinion is still unchanged:

“I still don’t think it’s right,” said Evans. “EP’s won today and he has a load less points than I do. Whatever the circumstances, I don’t think that’s right.

“So even though I’ve come out all right with the new points system, I’m still not an advocate for it.”

[Andre Oliveira]

Why not end sunday? Make rallies flexible and with end in saturday. A full day to end will avoid cruising.

[CeskyOndra]

I think this has been suggested here before that I really like Power Sunday idea. It would be like the year before but instead of pushing just on the last stage, we would have multiple stages, where the drivers who want, can drive for points.

So the overall would be 25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1 and for Power Sunday, it would be 7-5-3-2-1 (or make it 6 instead of 7, if we don't want that 2nd can get the same amount as the winner). So the maximum that the second place can get is 18+7=25.

What is wrong with this? Why not just realize this think.. This is even better than last year's system.

[denkimi]

Why not end sunday? Make rallies flexible and with end in saturday. A full day to end will avoid cruising.
the only system that will stop cruising is rewarding points for every stage. if the gaps are big enough they cruise on saturday too. Hell, they will even cruise even on friday if they had some problem and are minutes behind.

But I agree that we could end most rallies on saturday evening. The amount of km's they do can easily be pushed into 2 days. ypres used to do 290+ km's in 1,5 days. Sunday adds mostly nothing but costs.


What is wrong with this? Why not just realize this think.. This is even better than last year's system.
It's much better than the system they have invented now.
But why stop at giving points for sunday alone? why not give 9 points for friday, 9 for saturday and 7 for sunday?

[deephouse]

I was wondering some things. I know you guys will be all against it but in reality it's quite simple solution...

I think that stages needs a mass reduction. Just look how close the times are. And that mean more battles in theory. I would maybe reduce competitive stages to around 10-15 kilometres for about 70% events on the calendar. That still don't need to mean that overall competitive stage distance would not be reduced so masively, they could add few more, add super specials like red barn area here in Sweden for example. Still could keep marathone events like Kenya, so the legendary aspect would be still there.

Maybe it would reduce AllLive challenges, could add more cameramans to the corners, drones, helicopters flying on less radius, better signal strenght for coverage, less safety risks.

Drivers would push more and we could get more action, because any second could count. Less mechanical faults, maybe less punctures.

Point system could be revert to 2023, and drivers could get new tires for PS.

I know that rallying needs a survival aspect too, it's all build around that too, but times change and I think that this could still be achieved with Kenya for example extendind their routes. One thing also, there is a championship and one event which is popular in marathone world, W2RC and Dakar. There is circuit racing series, and rallying is somewhere between.

[PLuto]

I was wondering some things. I know you guys will be all against it but in reality it's quite simple solution...

I think that stages needs a mass reduction. Just look how close the times are. And that mean more battles in theory. I would maybe reduce competitive stages to around 10-15 kilometres for about 70% events on the calendar. That still don't need to mean that overall competitive stage distance would not be reduced so masively, they could add few more, add super specials like red barn area here in Sweden for example. Still could keep marathone events like Kenya, so the legendary aspect would be still there.

Maybe it would reduce AllLive challenges, could add more cameramans to the corners, drones, helicopters flying on less radius, better signal strenght for coverage, less safety risks.

Drivers would push more and we could get more action, because any second could count. Less mechanical faults, maybe less punctures.

Point system could be revert to 2023, and drivers could get new tires for PS.

I know that rallying needs a survival aspect too, it's all build around that too, but times change and I think that this could still be achieved with Kenya for example extendind their routes. One thing also, there is a championship and one event which is popular in marathone world, W2RC and Dakar. There is circuit racing series, and rallying is somewhere between.

And in the final we can make one stage 6 kms long. Every competitor will do it four times on Friday in one direction, four times on Saturday in opposite direction and on Sunday they will go twice in first direction with added some artificial chicanes. Every competitor will fight for every tenths of seconds, push all the time. All live should have camera every 200m, spectators on site will see the cars all the time, service area can be between all stages, so cars will be more reliable. So for show this is the best format. But I am not sure if there will be competitors (and spectators) willing to see it...

[denkimi]

And in the final we can make one stage 6 kms long. Every competitor will do it four times on Friday in one direction, four times on Saturday in opposite direction and on Sunday they will go twice in first direction with added some artificial chicanes. Every competitor will fight for every tenths of seconds, push all the time. All live should have camera every 200m, spectators on site will see the cars all the time, service area can be between all stages, so cars will be more reliable. So for show this is the best format. But I am not sure if there will be competitors (and spectators) willing to see it...

you just invented the rallysprint.

[seb_sh]

And in the final we can make one stage 6 kms long. Every competitor will do it four times on Friday in one direction, four times on Saturday in opposite direction and on Sunday they will go twice in first direction with added some artificial chicanes. Every competitor will fight for every tenths of seconds, push all the time. All live should have camera every 200m, spectators on site will see the cars all the time, service area can be between all stages, so cars will be more reliable. So for show this is the best format. But I am not sure if there will be competitors (and spectators) willing to see it...

Let's go further, since we have just the one stage how about we make it just 3km but 2 times wider and we let 4 cars race at the same time so they can pass each other! Now that would be exciting!

[TypeR]

Let's go further, since we have just the one stage how about we make it just 3km but 2 times wider and we let 4 cars race at the same time so they can pass each other! Now that would be exciting!
amd without co-drivers, to make cars lighter!

[Rallyper]

Never let it happen once again that 2nd placed o/a driver gets more points than the winner. The driver who stod on highest place in podium celebrating, but got less points.

New point scoring system no matter what it could be at the best, shouldn´t end up rallies like Rally Sweden.
Why wasn´t Evans on step one on Podium, then?

RIDICULOUS IT WAS!!

[Steve Boyd]

Let's go further, since we have just the one stage how about we make it just 3km but 2 times wider and we let 4 cars race at the same time so they can pass each other! Now that would be exciting!


amd without co-drivers, to make cars lighter!
And make half the stage tarmac & the other half gravel. I think we're really on to something here guys!

[JRodrigues]

Never let it happen once again that 2nd placed o/a driver gets more points than the winner. The driver who stod on highest place in podium celebrating, but got less points.

New point scoring system no matter what it could be at the best, shouldn´t end up rallies like Rally Sweden.
Why wasn´t Evans on step one on Podium, then?

RIDICULOUS IT WAS!!

Well, if he wanted more points, he should've pushed on Sunday. Yet, he didn't. He just wanted the win and that's what he got.

[Backa]

Well, if he wanted more points, he should've pushed on Sunday. Yet, he didn't. He just wanted the win and that's what he got.

It's true that Lappi should do more if his main objective would be maximizing points gain instead of win but it doesn't change ridiculousness of situation when it's possible to be rally winner and not be points winner.

Currently rally from WRC standings point of view, is not a rally but series of mini-rallies where winning whole thing doesn't matter. It shouldn't be like that.

[HKSjbg]

Well, if he wanted more points, he should've pushed on Sunday. Yet, he didn't. He just wanted the win and that's what he got.

He completed the entire rally in the overall shortest time. That should always be worthy of the most points

[JRodrigues]

He completed the entire rally in the overall shortest time. That should always be worthy of the most points

Why? Because it's "fair"? Is it also "fair" that he got road advantage?

[denkimi]

Why? Because it's "fair"? Is it also "fair" that he got road advantage?

because that's what rally is and always has been. driving a certain distance faster than you opponents.

[rallyfiend]

I think it's being overlooked that in the age of 'part-time' drivers, this points system is actually best at rewarding those doing the full championship.

Lappi didn't push on Sunday because he had a rally win and a large financial bonus waiting for him at the end. Points were completely irrelevant for him.

Neuville and Evans are season-long competitors so push and reaped the reward of the maximum points they could score.

If anything, this minimised the impact of part-time Lappi on those running for the actual championship.

There's nothing wrong with that in my book. I dislike the number of part-time drivers chasing rally wins and money.

[WRCStan]

because that's what rally is and always has been. driving a certain distance faster than you opponents.

Not exactly true, but yes the rally that always was in WRC.

The same thing was said at the invention of the power stage, restarting and whatever other rule change.

[HKSjbg]

Why? Because it's "fair"? Is it also "fair" that he got road advantage?

Someone has to start first on the road and someone has to start last on the road. Now its fair to argue whether the current system is the best or not, whether qualifying or old-fashioned seeding would be better - but that is not even in the same ballpark as ‘lowest overall time isn’t necessarily worth greatest overall points’.

Imagine if F1 introduced something similar in the early 2000s because Michael Schumacher was ‘too dominant’. Extra points for the first few laps of the race because Montoya was often on pole but the Michelins didn’t last the distance like the Bridgestones.

Schumacher passes the finish line first, Barrichello retired and the Williams BMWs were second and third. Montoya’s extra points for staying in the lead from the start plus his second position overall, 1m15s down on Schumacher, actually earn him 9 points and Schumacher only gets 6. But its completely fair because Schumacher got to start on the clean side of the track…

[JRodrigues]

Someone has to start first on the road and someone has to start last on the road. Now its fair to argue whether the current system is the best or not, whether qualifying or old-fashioned seeding would be better - but that is not even in the same ballpark as ‘lowest overall time isn’t necessarily worth greatest overall points’.

Imagine if F1 introduced something similar in the early 2000s because Michael Schumacher was ‘too dominant’. Extra points for the first few laps of the race because Montoya was often on pole but the Michelins didn’t last the distance like the Bridgestones.

Schumacher passes the finish line first, Barrichello retired and the Williams BMWs were second and third. Montoya’s extra points for staying in the lead from the start plus his second position overall, 1m15s down on Schumacher, actually earn him 9 points and Schumacher only gets 6. But its completely fair because Schumacher got to start on the clean side of the track…

Nice reply. But this was not done because someone was dominant. It was done for drivers not cruising around on Sunday. Task achieved.

[Rallyper]

Nice reply. But this was not done because someone was dominant. It was done for drivers not cruising around on Sunday. Task achieved.

However leading by 1 m 15 s (yes I know it´s an example) makes leading driver to cruise as well. Or should he not?

[JRodrigues]

However leading by 1 m 15 s (yes I know it´s an example) makes leading driver to cruise as well. Or should he not?

Depends if he needs the points or not.

[AndyRAC]

Nice reply. But this was not done because someone was dominant. It was done for drivers not cruising around on Sunday. Task achieved.

There's nothing wrong with cruising around - it happens in all motorsports. If people have a problem with it, maybe it's not the sport for them; current rally fans possibly have too short attention spans that would be better suited to Rallycross.....

[Backa]

There's nothing wrong with cruising around - it happens in all motorsports. If people have a problem with it, maybe it's not the sport for them; current rally fans possibly have too short attention spans that would be better suited to Rallycross.....

Changes done to make sport more interesting happens elsewhere too. Sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. If you will miss cruising, you can always go to road close to your home and watch cars pass through.

[WRCStan]

There's nothing wrong with cruising around - it happens in all motorsports. If people have a problem with it, maybe it's not the sport for them; current rally fans possibly have too short attention spans that would be better suited to Rallycross.....

This system was created by the powers that felt it necessary, not by fans. Perhaps that says something about who the more valued/majority fans are.

[Rallyper]

Depends if he needs the points or not.

So having a big lead in F1 (that´s what latest example was) you should loose points if you cruise and still wins?

[denkimi]

The best thing about cruising is that nobody really notices it except by looking at the time sheets. Those small differences between pushing and driving safe are almost invisible to spectators.

Well, at least it was not noticeable untill they needed to drive extremely slow to save their tyres for the powerstage.

[WRCStan]

The best thing about cruising is that nobody really notices it except by looking at the time sheets. Those small differences between pushing and driving safe are almost invisible to spectators.

Well, at least it was not noticeable untill they needed to drive extremely slow to save their tyres for the powerstage.

I'm not sure who will agree with you there. Was always clear to me even when stood stage side with no signal who is pushing or cruising.

It was noticeable but nobody really cared until every stage was broadcast live and there were only a handful of top class cars.

[wyler]

I'm not sure who will agree with you there. Was always clear to me even when stood stage side with no signal who is pushing or cruising.

It was noticeable but nobody really cared until every stage was broadcast live and there were only a handful of top class cars.

that's not true. there are level of it. you can always tell if someone is conservative or not, but somehow on pace and no one complains. In the last couple of years there was an extreme that was really disappointing.

[WRCStan]

that's not true. there are level of it. you can always tell if someone is conservative or not, but somehow on pace and no one complains. In the last couple of years there was an extreme that was really disappointing.

What's not true? If not the AllLive factor, what else do you put your disappointment down to? Many here have said cruising was always a part of motorsport, so what changed?

[wyler]

What's not true? If not the AllLive factor, what else do you put your disappointment down to? Many here have said cruising was always a part of motorsport, so what changed?

it changed the way of it. losing 10s in 10 km is way different than losing 1 min in the same distance. all live has nothing to do with it. i was very disappointed to see sunday live on stage, not on tv/pc, only to find half of rally1 car going as slow as broken. i totally don't mind "normal" cruising, a bit more when is like "road mode" on special stage. and the latter happened a lot of time in the last couple of years.

[WRCStan]

it changed the way of it. losing 10s in 10 km is way different than losing 1 min in the same distance. all live has nothing to do with it. i was very disappointed to see sunday live on stage, not on tv/pc, only to find half of rally1 car going as slow as broken. i totally don't mind "normal" cruising, a bit more when is like "road mode" on special stage. and the latter happened a lot of time in the last couple of years.

So cruising is more extreme now than in the past? Maybe you are right, and maybe it has something to do with not enough top cars. I still think that it's only a problem to anybody watching live.

[wyler]

So cruising is more extreme now than in the past? Maybe you are right, and maybe it has something to do with not enough top cars. I still think that it's only a problem to anybody watching live.

yes, definitely been more extreme in the last 2 years, and yes not enough top car doen't help whern you have 8 car and 4/5 are really slow. i already said this, last 2/3 wrc rounds i saw live, lots of people just skipped sunday because of extreme cruising.

[Myrvold]

Why? Because it's "fair"? Is it also "fair" that he got road advantage?

Thing is, it doesn't make a difference why the distance is big. If we believe Neuville and Hyundai reg. the tech issues. And Evans spinning once at high speed, not getting stuck, and not loosing more time when he scooped snow in the air intake. Then we were very close to every driver except Lappi and Fourmaux having some sort of issue. Lappi would still drive safe due to this, but now his lead would be based on others making mistakes, not conditions. He would still score less points, and his win being literally pointless, even though it had all to do with him driving best and not making mistakes, not conditions...


I think it's being overlooked that in the age of 'part-time' drivers, this points system is actually best at rewarding those doing the full championship.


In the age of part-time drivers? I mean. The vast majority of years in rally were part-time drivers. I don't think there's been more than 5-6 seasons, possibly 7 where we've had double digit amount of drivers doing a full season. (That is including e.g Burns in 2003 and Martin 2005 as a full season)

[Backa]

New points system seems to make sundays more interesting but we have also another rally where winning whole thing is undervalued in points.

Points - Driver (position in rally):

20 - Rovanpera (1)
19 - Neuville (5)
18 - Katsuta (2)
17 - Fourmaux (3)
16 - Evans (4)
12 - Tanak (8)
6 - Greensmith (6)
4 - Solberg (7)
4 - Lappi (12)
3 - Kajetanowicz (10)
2 - Serderidis (9)
2 - G. Munster (15)

[deephouse]

New points system seems to make sundays more interesting but we have also another rally where winning whole thing is undervalued in points.

Points - Driver (position in rally):

20 - Rovanpera (1)
19 - Neuville (5)
18 - Katsuta (2)
17 - Fourmaux (3)
16 - Evans (4)
12 - Tanak (8)
6 - Greensmith (6)
4 - Solberg (7)
4 - Lappi (12)
3 - Kajetanowicz (10)
2 - Serderidis (9)
2 - G. Munster (15)

Well we can't do anything about it. Drivers can only benefit from it. And I think that after 3 rounds the season looks exciting as it should always be, but I think it's not due to points system, but more level playing field. Sorry Kalle, but you and Sebs are unfortunately too good for the rest. Look how Neuville, Evans, Katsuta, Lappi, Tanak and Adrien are so close in battles without those three for scoring points. That make each round so exciting.

F1 is so boring just because of that dominant force. And it looks like it will not change anytime soon.

[WRCStan]

Does anybody have the alternative traditional table? Obviously knowing incentives may have been different.

[ik1911]

Does anybody have similary example from any sport ?

Driver theoreticaly win all 13 rally in the season , and lose championship!

[Backa]

Does anybody have the alternative traditional table? Obviously knowing incentives may have been different.

For Kenya:

27 Rovanpera
18 Katsuta
15 Neuville
15 Fourmaux
13 Evans
8 Tanak
8 Greensmith
6 Solberg
3 Lappi
2 Serderidis
1 Kajetanowicz

WRC standings after 3 rounds with old point system:

60 Neuville (in reality he has 67)
52 Evans (61)
40 Fourmaux (46)
32 Rovanpera (31)
28 Katsuta (30)
28 Lappi (23)
23 Tanak (33)
22 Ogier (24)

For now, Tanak seems to benefit the most from new system as his friday/saturday problems don't hurt his overall points as much as it would with old system.

[SubaruNorway]

Going from 7 to 5 on Sunday, 20 on Saturday, would that be better?

[WRCStan]

Does anybody have similary example from any sport ?

Driver theoreticaly win all 13 rally in the season , and lose championship!

Rugby six nations had me wondering recently. Not totally sure how you can be champions in theory, but you can score more tries yet still lose the game whilst scoring bonus points in the tournament. All designed to reward those pushing and not the teams 'cruising', whilst keeping the matches traditional.

[Myrvold]

Does anybody have similary example from any sport ?

Driver theoreticaly win all 13 rally in the season , and lose championship!

No idea how it is in non-motorsport, but I think the closest would be NASCAR where you can win 35 races, and get one 2nd out of the 36 races, and not win the title.
Just like you can finish without a single top 10 the whole season, and still become a champion. In theory. It will never happen, but it is quite... special.


Going from 7 to 5 on Sunday, 20 on Saturday, would that be better?

Not for me. I want the actual rally winner/rally standings to matter.