2023 - Race 4 Azerbaijan

[F1nKS]

One more week of the spring vacation and then back to F1 at Baku. Key questions

1. Who if any will bring upgrades?

2. Will the rumored power struggle in RBR going to affect their march in 2023?

3. Can Perez challenge Max?

4. Is Mercedes storming back?

5. There has been hints of reliability issues with Red Bull - will they manifest themselves?

Standings
1. Max 69
2. Checo 54
3. Alonso 45
4. Hamilton 38

Long season yet to go.

[F1nKS]

On Tuesday, Sainz goes to the FIA for a "right to review" on his penalty. It should be interesting to see what new information that Ferrari thinks they have.

[airshifter]

I personally think Ferrari were in the right. They did not apply any penalty to the Ocon/Gasly mess, and that was considered a first turn incident that did not justify penalty.



As for Baku, several teams have mentioned upgrades, to what extent is hard to nail down. I wouldn't be shocked to see quite a few through the field, but hard to say who will come out of it in better condition. From the last I've seen George's engine is toast, so even if they make improvements it might not be the race to gain any ground on other teams. I suspect RB will do well with their high top speeds and the mega straight, and as far as Checo and Max.... we will see. I think Max is the better driver but if Checo can get in his head he might have a shot at competing with him.

For now Ferrari seem to be in trouble still, AM and Merc might be able to battle it out some.

[Bagwan]

Ferrari should have protested that 5 seconds is too harsh a penalty in the closing laps BEFORE THE RACE COMMENCED .

Sainz should have braked earlier , so as not to have hit the rear of Alonso , causing a mess at the front of the pack , causing a mess of a finish .

Neither of those facts change by adding in the Ocon/Gasly actions .



Am I correct in remembering that Baku is the first sprint format of the year ?
I am not a fan of the sprint idea , and Baku seems to me to be one of the worst places to do it , owing to the tight spaces they navigate .
Will it be a full grid on Sunday ?

[The Black Knight]

Ferrari should have protested that 5 seconds is too harsh a penalty in the closing laps BEFORE THE RACE COMMENCED .

Sainz should have braked earlier , so as not to have hit the rear of Alonso , causing a mess at the front of the pack , causing a mess of a finish .

Neither of those facts change by adding in the Ocon/Gasly actions .



Am I correct in remembering that Baku is the first sprint format of the year ?
I am not a fan of the sprint idea , and Baku seems to me to be one of the worst places to do it , owing to the tight spaces they navigate .
Will it be a full grid on Sunday ?

Ferrari had no right to review- the penalty was not too harsh, it was appropriate to the incident. Getting demoted back to 12th is irrelevant because there isn't a lighter penalty than 5 seconds. It's also consistent with other penalties applied to similar situations in recent times. The consequence of the penalty is harsh but that's just tough luck. Sainz can have zero complaints here. The incident was completely avoidable and 100% his fault.

[Bagwan]

Ferrari had no right to review- the penalty was not too harsh, it was appropriate to the incident. Getting demoted back to 12th is irrelevant because there isn't a lighter penalty than 5 seconds. It's also consistent with other penalties applied to similar situations in recent times. The consequence of the penalty is harsh but that's just tough luck. Sainz can have zero complaints here. The incident was completely avoidable and 100% his fault.

Well , how about that , Mr. Knight .
We agree .

I do think , though , that there is room for discussion about whether to apply the same 5 second penalty within the last 5 laps .
This situation was exacerbated by the fact that the cars were close together as a result of the re-start , so he lost more places as a result .

But , he was still the Bozo that blew up the front of the pack .

[The Black Knight]

Well , how about that , Mr. Knight .
We agree .

I do think , though , that there is room for discussion about whether to apply the same 5 second penalty within the last 5 laps .
This situation was exacerbated by the fact that the cars were close together as a result of the re-start , so he lost more places as a result .

But , he was still the Bozo that blew up the front of the pack .

Is this the first time we've ever agreed, Baggie? ;)

The top 10 cars cars could easily have been spread out over 60 seconds in the last 5 laps. The timing of the incident is irrelevant to the penalty. Go down that road and it never ends because race circumstances will alwys be different with a never ending set of permutations.

[F1nKS]

So there is rumor that 6 teams breached the cost cap this year.

[The Black Knight]

So there is rumor that 6 teams breached the cost cap this year.

Wouldn’t surprise me - given the practically zero penalty RBR received - I can see little motivation for teams to keep within the cap anymore.

[F1nKS]

Wouldn’t surprise me - given the practically zero penalty RBR received - I can see little motivation for teams to keep within the cap anymore.

https://f1i.com/news/471735-domenicali-more-than-nervous-over-2022-cost-cap-results.html

The fate of the teams’ accounts is now in the hands of the FIA’s financial analysts, but Domenicali admits he is nervous.

“I’m more than nervous,” he told Sky Sports. “I’m pretty sure that everyone understands now what the effect is if there is a breach, and I totally agree that the focus on this will actually be very big.

[Nitrodaze]

This race holds so much promise to be the start of some sort of change in the competitive gaps between the front teams. This race is a mixture of engine grunt and cornering efficiency to be outright faster than the pack. The Mercedes should go well here but Redbull shall still be ahead by a good margin. Aston Martin would have their work cut out to keep the Mercedes behind. I wonder if Ferrari can recover some ground at this race, they are drifting backwards lately.

[F1nKS]

The sprint format has been put out.

Friday will be qualifying for the race on Sunday
Modified (shorter) qualifying rounds on Saturday for the sprint race.
Sprint Race on Saturday - 17 laps. 8 points for the winner, 1 point for 8th
Sprint race does not effect the Sunday race.

[Bagwan]

The sprint format has been put out.

Friday will be qualifying for the race on Sunday
Modified (shorter) qualifying rounds on Saturday for the sprint race.
Sprint Race on Saturday - 17 laps. 8 points for the winner, 1 point for 8th
Sprint race does not effect the Sunday race.

So , yeah good idea they've got there .
Why not add a qualifying session ?
And why not make it shorter , so as to make the drivers even more under pressure to get a fast time for the sprint grid ?

Why not do it instead of practice sessions , so they have less time to get the cars set to the driver's preferences ?

And , why not do it the same day , so the drivers must deal with different conditions in the afternoon sun ?


And , last but not least , why not put the first test of the new format in a tight , walled track like Baku ?

[airshifter]

So , yeah good idea they've got there .
Why not add a qualifying session ?
And why not make it shorter , so as to make the drivers even more under pressure to get a fast time for the sprint grid ?

Why not do it instead of practice sessions , so they have less time to get the cars set to the driver's preferences ?

And , why not do it the same day , so the drivers must deal with different conditions in the afternoon sun ?


And , last but not least , why not put the first test of the new format in a tight , walled track like Baku ?

No need to be a pessimist Bagwan. I mean after all, they don't make them run a 10K foot race before the Sprint, so they haven't exhausted every single stupid idea yet! :laugh:


I'm not fond of the Sprint thing, old format or new. All it does is show short term race pace with limited setup and fine tuning time. Once you watch the sprint, you have a pretty good idea of who has pace for the full length race. They can use the tire info some, but not much else. If they did say P1, Sprint, P2, Qualy, Race... and allowed changes after the Sprint, it might leave room where the Sprint would show other teams strengths and weaknesses with their competition. And then with a chance to change setups someone, try to overcome and capitalize on how to place better. But as is, it just feels like they are trying to cram in more laps, and the teams that get it closer to right at first will still be closer to right when the race happens.

Maybe, just maybe Bagwan, we can figure out how they do all this in one day. Add the foot race before the Sprint, and a brief boxing match just before the main race commences. Those that win the boxing match have car selection. You match up in reverse grid order naturally, as this would be the only way to not make it appear artificial and just for the show feeling. :laugh:

[Bagwan]

No need to be a pessimist Bagwan. I mean after all, they don't make them run a 10K foot race before the Sprint, so they haven't exhausted every single stupid idea yet! :laugh:


I'm not fond of the Sprint thing, old format or new. All it does is show short term race pace with limited setup and fine tuning time. Once you watch the sprint, you have a pretty good idea of who has pace for the full length race. They can use the tire info some, but not much else. If they did say P1, Sprint, P2, Qualy, Race... and allowed changes after the Sprint, it might leave room where the Sprint would show other teams strengths and weaknesses with their competition. And then with a chance to change setups someone, try to overcome and capitalize on how to place better. But as is, it just feels like they are trying to cram in more laps, and the teams that get it closer to right at first will still be closer to right when the race happens.

Maybe, just maybe Bagwan, we can figure out how they do all this in one day. Add the foot race before the Sprint, and a brief boxing match just before the main race commences. Those that win the boxing match have car selection. You match up in reverse grid order naturally, as this would be the only way to not make it appear artificial and just for the show feeling. :laugh:

I like it , Shifter .
If you add Bernie's sprinkler system around the track , and change the boxing to mud wrestling(the grid girls could use the work) , you might have enough to keep us all interested enough to watch .

[Nitrodaze]

I like it , Shifter .
If you add Bernie's sprinkler system around the track , and change the boxing to mud wrestling(the grid girls could use the work) , you might have enough to keep us all interested enough to watch .

I can tell, you are secretly loving it ha ha.

With the cost cap, any crashes could turn out to be very costly to Redbull especially, but it is the same for all teams. It makes you wonder if they have thought this through properly. I suppose we would see how it is going to turn out. It would be a great racing weekend. I have a feeling nobody would hold back.

[ouvreur]

I can tell, you are secretly loving it ha ha.

With the cost cap, any crashes could turn out to be very costly to Redbull especially, but it is the same for all teams. It makes you wonder if they have thought this through properly. I suppose we would see how it is going to turn out. It would be a great racing weekend. I have a feeling nobody would hold back.

Why RB especially? Won't they just go over it with impunity again? :laugh:

[Bagwan]

With the shortened sprint qually , and only a few hours between it and racing , I expect a grid of 18 cars tomorrow .

I also expect sprint qually to take longer to complete than todays race qually .


F1 wasn't broken , yet they keep trying this stupid sprint idea to fix it .

[Bagwan]

Sorry , Charles , I should have congratulated your return to the pole , but I was distracted by the stupid sprint .

Nice to see the reds fighting back .

[Nitrodaze]

Sorry , Charles , I should have congratulated your return to the pole , but I was distracted by the stupid sprint .

Nice to see the reds fighting back .

They don't have the race pace to keep the RedBulls behind. l think. But it is refreshing to see there is superior speed in that Ferrari. They just need to put all the pieces together and they shall be the team to beat again. But what a boost for Leclerc. The pecking order appears to be shaping out in Ferrari it seems.

[Tazio]

'noda!

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[Tazio]

'los rode Fred all the way across the track to the wall. That wasn't very nice!

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[F1nKS]

Max needs to do a couple things....

1. Shave the caterpillar off his lip

2. Quite whining about Sprint Race format. F1 is not there for Max, F1 is there because it is a entertainment business.

After going to the F1 race in Austin last year I can understand what they are trying to do. They need entertainment value Friday/Saturday and Sunday. F1 is just looking for the recipe to maximize the entertainment value and revenue.

3. Quite whining. Russell was pretty fair, Verstappen was alot more aggressive against Hamilton.

If I was other teams, I would instruct my drivers to be aggressive against Max. There is nothing to lose and it looks like it would get him off his game.

[Nitrodaze]

Why RB especially? Won't they just go over it with impunity again? :laugh:

Ha ha

[Nitrodaze]

Does anyone notice Verstappen was beaten fair and square by Perez in the sprint? Out-qualified and outgunned in the race.

[Tazio]

Does anyone notice Verstappen was beaten fair and square by Perez in the sprint? Out-qualified and outgunned in the race.Well 'stappen did have substantial damage to his rig due to his encounter with "princess george" . That being said checo has had the measure of him this weekend .

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[Bagwan]

Did anyone else notice that Max was tighter than he needed to be before he was hit by the princess ?
He bounced about a yard to the right before touching the wall , meaning he had that room outside but chose to take a tighter line than was necessary to make the corner .

From what I saw , it looked like the princess might have made it through the corner , had he had even just two of those three feet .

He left enough room for the princess on his left at the apex , but , perhaps should have done what the princess expected , as that was to run the fastest line , which was brushing the wall .

He was marginally ahead , but when it's that close it doesn't pay to be a tool , especially when you are outside .

[Bagwan]

I almost forgot .
Max might not be right about the princess , but he sure has my support for getting rid of the sprint .

Go Max !

[Zico]

I was always positive and optimistic that the sprints might offer something new that was good but it has become pretty clear that the format improves nothing.

I'm not going to bother watching any of this weekends sprints nor should anyone else who doesn't like them if we want to get the message across to the circus organisers.

Liberty- Just bin this silly sprint idea please.

[Tazio]

Easy peasy 'stappen

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[Tazio]

Brilliant move by Fred

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[The Black Knight]

Nice to see Perez show everyone that Verstappen isn't the great driver everyone seems to think. IMO he's the most overrated driver in the history of the sport. Like Vettel pampered by RBR and made to look a lot better than reality. He only has two titles because of his teams cheating and Masi's stupidity.

I think without DRS there would have been almost no overtaking today. The new rules are an abject failure- the cars look ugly fat and slow.

I don't watch F1 as much after they fixed the title in the 2021 season - missed two races this season - but really I haven't felt like I've been missing much either.

[Zico]

Nice to see Perez show everyone that Verstappen isn't the great driver everyone seems to think. IMO he's the most overrated driver in the history of the sport. Like Vettel pampered by RBR and made to look a lot better than reality. He only has two titles because of his teams cheating and Masi's stupidity.

I think without DRS there would have been almost no overtaking today. The new rules are an abject failure- the cars look ugly fat and slow.

I don't watch F1 as much after they fixed the title in the 2021 season - missed two races this season - but really I haven't felt like I've been missing much either.


I caved in after saying I wasn't going to watch it and just finished watching the highlights. Doh..

Ok, I'll bite... the exact same also applies to Lewis.
Even Bottas beat Lewis on occasion, well.. when he wasn't told to let Lewis through, does that make Lewis not a great driver? Of course not.

Or... are you saying that you believe Sergio is better than Max?

Not to take away anything from Sergio today, yes he benefited from the safety car while Max suffered from it... but Sergio also drove very well.
He typically performs at his best on street circuits though so it wasn't a surprise for me.

100% sounds like Max is still living rent free in your head. While I can understand your anger at Masi's decision, you really ought to try to come to terms with it and let it go.. or the bitterness will affect your lifes outlook and consume you. It's just a 'sport' without a level playing field at the end of the day.

[Bagwan]

Best radio of the day was from Fred , who , when told about Lance saying he wouldn't attack him , and that hey were playing the same game , said "He can have a go ."

Now , there's a couple of guys who are working together .

Lance had no mentor with Massa .
He got closer with Seb .

But , now he has a real team mate .
It's nice to see .

[Tazio]

:stareup: Would you say that Fred is a messiah to Lance, or just a righteous bro? At any rate, a great result for the team.
May the Forza be with them!

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[Tazio]

"Carlos Sainz has praised Fernando Alonso for his stellar moves during the Azerbaijan Grand Prix after his fellow Spaniard overtook him during a tricky race for the Ferrari driver.

The Ferrari driver praised the work of Aston Martin driver Alonso after he overtook him.

https://i.imgur.com/FGfVmFx.jpeg

Alonso took home P4 in the race, breaking a clean sweep of podiums so far this season.

Sainz said: “Fernando got me right, clean, and then defended in a great way."

Well played by Fred.....
and his hero :dork:

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[The Black Knight]

I caved in after saying I wasn't going to watch it and just finished watching the highlights. Doh..

Ok, I'll bite... the exact same also applies to Lewis.
Even Bottas beat Lewis on occasion, well.. when he wasn't told to let Lewis through, does that make Lewis not a great driver? Of course not.

Or... are you saying that you believe Sergio is better than Max?

Not to take away anything from Sergio today, yes he benefited from the safety car while Max suffered from it... but Sergio also drove very well.
He typically performs at his best on street circuits though so it wasn't a surprise for me.

100% sounds like Max is still living rent free in your head. While I can understand your anger at Masi's decision, you really ought to try to come to terms with it and let it go.. or the bitterness will affect your lifes outlook and consume you. It's just a 'sport' without a level playing field at the end of the day.

No what I'm saying is thay Sergio isn't an amazing driver. I'd agree he has upped his game over the last number of years but I still don't rate him highly. For Max to be beaten consistently by him is telling.

I don't like Max never have - no secret there. I've never been impressed by him they way I've been impressed by LeClerc or other drivers. I didn't like Vettel either but never had an issue with how he won his championships. Max did nothing wrong with the Masi incident but they cheated throughout the year to bring upgrades to the car that they should not have been able to bring.

Don't worry Max is not in my head. I have a far richer life away from F1. And now that I don't watch races as much I have more free time to devote energy to other things.

[Nitrodaze]

I caved in after saying I wasn't going to watch it and just finished watching the highlights. Doh..

Ok, I'll bite... the exact same also applies to Lewis.
Even Bottas beat Lewis on occasion, well.. when he wasn't told to let Lewis through, does that make Lewis not a great driver? Of course not.

Or... are you saying that you believe Sergio is better than Max?

Not to take away anything from Sergio today, yes he benefited from the safety car while Max suffered from it... but Sergio also drove very well.
He typically performs at his best on street circuits though so it wasn't a surprise for me.

100% sounds like Max is still living rent free in your head. While I can understand your anger at Masi's decision, you really ought to try to come to terms with it and let it go.. or the bitterness will affect your lifes outlook and consume you. It's just a 'sport' without a level playing field at the end of the day.

I agree, Max could have won Baku if not for some bad luck with Pitstop. That said, Perez showed that he was no slouch either. The opportunity came and he took it with both hands. I think Perez is the underdog as most people underrate him. How he was used in 2021 and 2022 by Redbull as support for Verstappen seemed to box him in that mindset. And has led most to the feeling that he was not as good as Verstappen. He has built up that notorious second garage into a race-winning subteam. The stigma of that side of Redbull being where the trainee engineers are put and a support driver slot, has been turned around by Perez who has figured out how to get the most from those engineers.

It is also refreshing that Redbull is making us eat humble pie for saying they would not let their drivers fight each other for the title. It is early days but we are here at a point where Perez and the band of engineers from the notorious second Redxbull garage have a real shot of winning the driver's title.
Can Perez beat Verstappen over a full season? Yes he can, he has experience on his side and he is fast enough to give Verstappen a run for his money on a good weekend like Baku. This season is shaping out to be a really challenging one for Verstappen. This is the season where he has to work hard to win the title on his own without the support of the second driver. It would be the first title where he would properly earn the respect of everyone as a proper world champion if he can defeat Perez without the aid of Redbull at the expense of Perez. I think he can do it, but Perez is definitely not going to make it easy for him.

Also, Perez would come out of this season with a higher stock value whichever way it goes. He has nothing to lose and tons to gain. Verstappen on the other hand has loads to lose if he fails to win the 2023 title. He would have fallen short of Sebastian Vettel for a start that won four in trot for Redbull.

So far, there has been no on-track tussle between these two, but l have a feeling it would come and it would be interesting to see how Horner handles that situation. Would he be even-handed or would he favour Verstappen in those situations? That is the only real risk to Perez's chances of winning the title.

[Nitrodaze]

"Carlos Sainz has praised Fernando Alonso for his stellar moves during the Azerbaijan Grand Prix after his fellow Spaniard overtook him during a tricky race for the Ferrari driver.

The Ferrari driver praised the work of Aston Martin driver Alonso after he overtook him.

https://i.imgur.com/FGfVmFx.jpeg

Alonso took home P4 in the race, breaking a clean sweep of podiums so far this season.

Sainz said: “Fernando got me right, clean, and then defended in a great way."

Well played by Fred.....
and his hero :dork:

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That was the pass of the race. Poor Sainz did not have a chance once Alonso placed his car alongside.

[Nitrodaze]

I was always positive and optimistic that the sprints might offer something new that was good but it has become pretty clear that the format improves nothing.

I'm not going to bother watching any of this weekends sprints nor should anyone else who doesn't like them if we want to get the message across to the circus organisers.

Liberty- Just bin this silly sprint idea please.

Give it a chance, it would be more interesting at other non-street circuits. That said, l enjoyed it. You could see team bosses wince as they watched each race starts.

[N. Jones]

Does anyone notice Verstappen was beaten fair and square by Perez in the sprint? Out-qualified and outgunned in the race.

I think Max was having issues with grip. He looked squirrly all weekend.

[Nitrodaze]

I think Max was having issues with grip. He looked squirrly all weekend.

Even the best drivers have off days l guess. But Verstappen would have a little more respect for Checo l think. Perez is now a real threat and he can't relax until he has a healthy points gap to him. Close as it is at the moment, anything is possible. He can't afford off days like this anymore, l think.

[Bagwan]

:stareup: Would you say that Fred is a messiah to Lance, or just a righteous bro? At any rate, a great result for the team.
May the Forza be with them!

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I think it's a mutual respect thing .

For Lance , I think it's rare for him to feel much respect from much of the paddock , owing to his origins . Dad owns the team so he gets a whole lot of lip service .

But Fernando was offered respect with a multi-year contract , and has showered praise on Young Lance .
Now , normally , one might assume that the two actions were linked , but I don't remember Alonso ever being anything but a straight shooter in the past .


I think both a pretty happy with it being a team .

[Tazio]

:stareup: Alrighty then, just let the love-fest be? :love:

[Nitrodaze]

I think it's a mutual respect thing .

For Lance , I think it's rare for him to feel much respect from much of the paddock , owing to his origins . Dad owns the team so he gets a whole lot of lip service .

But Fernando was offered respect with a multi-year contract , and has showered praise on Young Lance .
Now , normally , one might assume that the two actions were linked , but I don't remember Alonso ever being anything but a straight shooter in the past .


I think both a pretty happy with it being a team .

Alonso has known Lance and his dad since his F3 days l heard. So, the friendship and respect go way back. What we are seeing is just a continuation of it. It also explained how Aston was able to make Alonso switch teams to them.