Kronos cars could be faster?

[Peugeot206WRC]

After reading some articles about Carlsson taking a break from WRC, for several not confirmed reasons, and seeing all these poor times I start wondering how much downgraded is the Xsara really?
Last year, and also 2005, Stohl was pretty fast with the Xsara and the poor 307 but this year with a really good car he seems slower.
I dont think the Xsara is so much slower then all the Fords and the Subarus and C4, so its really strange (since he dont seem to have any chance against Atko or Henning anymore at all).
Also, Carlsson is driving slower, I excepted he would be faster in these rallies he have driven so far (especially Sweden and Portugal).
Well, he got no test miles in the car at all before sweden or between the rallies, but hes going like that his whole career so I dont know if that would have a very big part of his times.

Marc Van Dalen said he really expected much more and the drivers struggling to get points. Now he trying to convince Citroen to give them the better parts (probably they are afraid of getting beaten by the still better Xsara?).
I think this is really sad if its true and I think its also one of the reasons why Carlsson wont do some rallies.
Thers no reason to drive with his goals if you dont have a competitive car.

Now, could the car really be that much downgraded. I doubt the car gets so much slower in one year, I think Loeb would still be in top if it wouldnt be downgraded and I know Stohl, Carlsson and Galli are much faster then whats been on the times so far this year.

[Finni]

Stohl has never been particularly fast with the Xsara. 307 was better for him.

Citroen shouldn't have slightest need to be worried about Xsara in the hands of current drivers. If they are really keeping some parts away from Kronos, as some sources are informed, I really wonder why.

[Peugeot206WRC]

No, they probably wont be a threat to Loeb.
But I think they maybe could reach one podium with some luck and and a competetive car, that means less points to Citroen if Sordo gets beaten.
And these three drivers are good enough to at least have a battle with Sordo on gravel, but even that seems difficault at the moment.

[JAM]

I think the Xsaras are very downgraded. It's strange that the car lost so much perfomance. Stohl and Carlsson are not Loeb, but are guys to run at the same level of Henning Solberg, anda they run very far from the oldest Solberg.

[Brother John]

I think the Xsaras are very downgraded. It's strange that the car lost so much perfomance. Stohl and Carlsson are not Loeb, but are guys to run at the same level of Henning Solberg, anda they run very far from the oldest Solberg.

The cars are not downgraded but Kronos has cars from 2003, till 2005 i think.
Where are the 2006 Xsaras?

[Tomski]

The car driven by Stohl this year is chassis number T429, the same car driven by Loeb on a number of last year's rallies.

[SubaruNorway]

Somethings not right and Van Dalen is not happy http://www.crash.net/uk/en/services/radio/radioplayer~radioURL~3464.wma~csp~3.htm

[swordsman]

The car driven by Stohl this year is chassis number T429, the same car driven by Loeb on a number of last year's rallies.

Hehe, yes, but that doesn't really mean it's the same car. How many of the parts are in place since loeb drove? I bet NONE! I'm sure they rebuilt the whole car before the season... I believe there are parts that doesn't hold the same quality as last year - that's quite obvious.

[Buzz Lightyear]

downgraded... so that stohl could not take points of sordo on gravel rally's??? A xsara will never be allowed to beat a c4. end of story.

[L5->R5/CR]

Maybe this is part of how Citroen is operating on a reduced budget?

Frequelin said that Citroen would be providing less funding and that without sponsors they would be operating on less of a budget than in 2005. Maybe they took a lot of the latest and top spec parts to the C4 instead of leaving them with the Xsara to cut the operating costs from having to manufacturer the parts?

[cosmicpanda]

I think the Xsaras are very downgraded. It's strange that the car lost so much perfomance. Stohl and Carlsson are not Loeb, but are guys to run at the same level of Henning Solberg, anda they run very far from the oldest Solberg.

Henning is in a newer car than them, though, isn't he?


Hehe, yes, but that doesn't really mean it's the same car. How many of the parts are in place since loeb drove? I bet NONE! I'm sure they rebuilt the whole car before the season... I believe there are parts that doesn't hold the same quality as last year - that's quite obvious.

For example, replacing Loeb with Stohl.

[JAM]

Henning is in a newer car than them, though, isn't he?
.

Last year Loeb with the Xsara was faster than Gronholm with the Focus.

This year, the Xsara must one step behind a Focus from Stobbart. As Stohl has a lot of experience in WRC rallyes and Henning still hasn't, would be obvious that these two drivers would fight between them. But Stohl is very far from Henning.

[DonJippo]

But Stohl is very far from Henning.

Does not necessarily mean that car is the reason for that.

[Peugeot206WRC]

Does not necessarily mean that car is the reason for that.

Maybe not. But I think its very strange that Stohl loosing so much speed in so few months (between Wales and MC).
Also Galli and Carlsson lost lot of times against other drivers compared to last years rallies they participated in.
And I think its a big time loss if you look what cars they droved before.

Its still early in the season and I dont say that Stohl or the other should take top 5 places, but I predicted at least one top 5 place sometimes but it looks hard when they really have to struggle to get near points.

[ZequeArgentina]

I willdo something tonight:
compare same stages in 2006 and 2007, Stohl with 307 last year to 2007 Xsara´s ones.
Then what happenmed with Loeb, Sordo and Pons Xsaras and the lead.

I am sure to find Stohl being directly slower with this year Xsra than 307, and also slower than the Kronos Xsaras 06 (ven considering Loeb in one league,and Sordo Pons in another).

Tonigh I will post mi view with that information.

[ZequeArgentina]

OK, here is first part of my review:

Comparing exact stages 2006 vs 2007 in Argentina Rally and Mexico.

I know that surface could have changed, weather, motivation (fighting or securing positions, experience specially in Sordo case), but some observations could be taken from here:

Loeb & Sordo Kronos Xsara in 2006, C4 in 2007
Stohl Bozian 307 in ´06 and Kronos Xsara in ´07
In some stages I added for reference Solberg and Gronholm times (to see how much average improvement in the lead was made year over year)

I look at the only 10 stages (4 Mexico and 6 Argentina) with exactly same distance year over year, and respecting if it was first pass or second.

Main conclussions:

Mexico
Loeb and Gronholm were very little faster in 07 than 06 in Mexico. (in 4 stages Loeb 26 seconds faster in almost 100 km)
Stohl was faster in Mex with the Xsara in 07 than 307 in 06 (more faster than Loeb and Gron. improvement), his 07 times were right between Loeb and Sordo times in 2006, in 2 stages closer to Sordós 06 times, in the other very close to loeb 06 times.

From here it does not show that the Kronos car is slower in 2007 than 2006

Rally Argentina: (6 stages).
Gro, Solb, and Loeb were almost 10 seconds faster per stage (almost exactly that) in 2007 than 2006. Part of it is improvement, but some could be due to weather in 2007 being little rainny which in AR means more grip due to less dust)humid conditions in 2007.

Stohl is equally fast with 307 in 06 to Xsara in 07. Take into consideration Stohl was pushing till the end in 06 during his close fight with Galli for positions, while in 2007 he was mostly in a steady but not fighting pace.

With 07 times Stohl is a little faster than Sordo and Pons with 06 Xsaras (ok I know the spaniards were less expereinced and may be not as fasta asStohl in Argentina).

It does not shown a big lost in raw speed of the Xsara, but Focus, Imprezza and c4 improvement over last year seem to have more responsibility with Stohl aparent loose of competitiveness.

This analisys is very partial, and not conclusive.
But at least for me It started to change my mind, Kronos car does not look very different to last year times. (no in Mexico, may be a little in Argentina, but I guess some loose is due to Shol less commitment)

I can post comaparative times if someone wants them.

I will do the sam for Acropolis.
I have not done it for Monte or Sweden as Stohl has said he never got a reasonable Xsra in 2007 (brakes and setup)

[grugsticles]

Ove always wondered if the new cars released each year ar actually significantly faster then the old ones.

Thanks!!

[JAM]

Very good work Zequeargentina :up:

But i still have doubts, specially because Mitsubishi Lancer didn't improved nothing and now seems faster in Toni hands than Stohl with the Xsara.

The Xsara must be faster with Stohl than the Mitsu with Toni, Tonis is better driver but no enough to cut the lack of speed between Xsara and Lancer.

[ZequeArgentina]

I do think Stohl is a fast driver, maybe at Toni´s pace (not in Finland, but same speed in New Zealand, and faster in Arg, Sardegna, or Acropolis).

[Peugeot206WRC]

ZequeArgentina

If you dont look at the times too much, because its very different conditions every year, but you compare the time loss against the other drivers you see Stohl has lost much.
I find it hard to believe that the Xsara could go so poor when Loeb was outclassing everyone except Gronholm some rallies in 2006 and remember Sordos first year in WRC? and ending fifth with some great rallies even on gravel.
A short time later three capable driver struggles to get 1 point.

[ZequeArgentina]

I have said it at the beggining, some gain is for conditions, but the rest is evolution of the works teams.

Anyway I do think current Xsara is not the same as last year, but times show is not that different.

Looking at several stages and comparing with other drivers allow to make some conclussion and not just giving ideas.

Who do yu compare Stohl with? Sttobart cars are also differnet, and there are no toher "no works" cars to comapre, at least with the events so far.

[jparker]

ZequeArgentina

If you dont look at the times too much, because its very different conditions every year, but you compare the time loss against the other drivers you see Stohl has lost much.


That's true, but still if you have plenty of stages from 2006 and 2007 to compare, you can spot some trends. For example I've been playing with the numbers (mostly average speed because many same stages have different distance during 2007) and I have found the following trend. All factory teams (including Subaru) are actually gaining average speed (around 2 km/h). It's only Stohl (didn't do Stobart) that has the same average speed as 2006. So, for me it's not Manfred that is getting slower, it's the other guys that are getting quicker and his complains are making sense to me.

[ZequeArgentina]

That is what I also startedto see in my review.
Same idea, just not conclussivebecause of litle stages compared by me.

[jparker]

That is what I also startedto see in my review.
Same idea, just not conclussivebecause of litle stages compared by me.
Sorry, didn't mean to double post. I guess I just confirmed what you said is true.

[ZequeArgentina]

It is OK.
Not considering it doubel post.

I am glad that someone else is noting te same.
As my pst was toolong, the final idea could not beso clear,so I ratyfie it.
Lets see Acropolis, were I expect Manfred to do better. (Xsara is very reliable) and he knows the terrain very well

[Peugeot206WRC]

Yea.
Well, now its known that Kronos using very old parts on their Xsara since what came out when Carlsson got disqualified.
Ofcourse the including people and news/media could lie and make it look like this but I think they talking truth.