[WRC] Safari Rally Kenya 2023 (22-25 June 2023)

[Oliverk]

Why can't new members join the forum?
Manual acceptance by admins. But no admins around for years.

[Jarek Z]

Manual acceptance by admins. But no admins around for years.

Thanks for your reply. That explains a lot :(

[meh]

Stagewin for Taka, 11 sec faster than others (just nice fact)

[PLuto]

Manual acceptance by admins. But no admins around for years.

This is not true. New members can join the forum without issues. Latest one was yesterday. I know that lot of "new members" are spam bots, but there are people from some weeks who are realy and some of them also talks. I dont think there is needed manual acceptance by admins to join the forum.

[TypeR]

This is not true. New members can join the forum without issues. Latest one was yesterday. I know that lot of "new members" are spam bots, but there are people from some weeks who are realy and some of them also talks. I dont think there is needed manual acceptance by admins to join the forum.

They are talking about Estonia rally forum, not this Motorsports one.

Have heard same thing from my Estonian friend.

[focus206]

I would not call it cruising for sure. Kalle collecting "hard points" this year, 3 4th places in row when he want to fight for the win, but he keeps his head cools and bringing points home (instead of over-driving).


To me that's exactly cruising, not to all rally victories but to an easy championship. Kalle can easily settle for 4th when he's not confident, he has no reason most of the time to go full attack and I think he knows it. Evans can't beat him over the course of the season, Ogier is part-time and good luck to whoever doesn't drive a Toyota, poor reliability will bite them.

[PLuto]

They are talking about Estonia rally forum, not this Motorsports one.

Have heard same thing from my Estonian friend.

Aha, sorry. I was not reading it so carefully.

[becher]

Probably somewhere in between. He doesn't need to take risks, but he is still doing it in a smart way.

[Tauri_J]

Oh man, imo Neuville is most fun to watch when he’s on ragged edge and pushing like crazy.

[meh]

Oh man, imo Neuville is most fun to watch when he’s on ragged edge and pushing like crazy.

I they all are if they are pushing. Neuville is just doing it often

[meh]

So, Loubet at the finish without any hsi own big mistakes and troubles (or I missed something)?

[Kras]

You can see Tanak gave it all on this stage. God that car is tragic

[Tauri_J]

You can see Tanak gave it all on this stage. God that car is tragic

He lost a second to Neuville. I dont find it tragic

[becher]

He lost a second to Neuville. I dont find it tragic

Exactly! This happens, but after his 2019 season some fans thought he should win every stage of every rally and if he doesn't there must be something wrong.

[meh]

Based on join date, Kras is quite new here and maybe present new generation way to comment things.

Neuville just did better :)

[Kras]

I underestimated Neuvilles run. He didn't seem that fast to me.

Guess I was wrong

[meh]

The tragic car was 2nd fastest on powerstage.

Like I wrote before, this stage does not seems to suit Toyota too well. Or maybe they were too low and stuck airfilters full and are lacking power (reported by Rovanperä).

[Kras]

Kalle just hates being second. That's
champion mentality

[becher]

Based on join date, Kras is quite new here and maybe present new generation way to comment things.

Neuville just did better :)

Ah some long time members act the same. It's a matter of which driver is involved.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Congrats to Toyota, another 1-2-3-4 is a great achievement on such a demanding rally. But they have an amazing history of success on the Safari and it must make a difference. They just know how to do it better than anyone.

M-Sport and Hyundai really have to up their games in the second half of the season (like Tanak/Hyundai did last year) to compete. They both showed they have pace at times, but better reliability is key. There cant be any excuses for component failures like we've seen.

Also a bit of a change in luck wouldnt go amiss either, especially with punctures. With times so close on modern rallies a puncture or two is just fatal to a drivers chances. And if one comes early in a rally the driver and team get quickly demoralised.

Fingers-crossed for the next rounds and the WRC gets reinvigorated.

[macebig]

God, I wonder what the reactions here would be if the forum existed during Safari 1993 (which ended in a similar result as today, fyi...). Yeah, ok Toyota seems to have the upper hand at the moment but nothing is written in stone yet. Estonia and Finland will determine where the championship leans to. The regulations stuff is a much bigger discussion and depends on how everyone (teams, FIA, promoter, organizers, fans) view the future of rallying. My 2 cents for now.

[Jarek Z]

So, Loubet at the finish without any hsi own big mistakes and troubles (or I missed something)?

At this speed what kind of achievement is it? ;)

[cali]

Kalle is in attack mode, Estonians here in panic mode. This is great! Yes can confirm this, our president just declared a state of emergency as people were freaking out too much

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[focus206]

God, I wonder what the reactions here would be if the forum existed during Safari 1993 (which ended in a similar result as today, fyi...). Yeah, ok Toyota seems to have the upper hand at the moment but nothing is written in stone yet. Estonia and Finland will determine where the championship leans to. The regulations stuff is a much bigger discussion and depends on how everyone (teams, FIA, promoter, organizers, fans) view the future of rallying. My 2 cents for now.

At Safari 1993 Toyota only had Shinozuka with Mitsubishi as a works competitor (and well, 3 Subaru Vivio...) so yes, nice reliability, but it's not such an incredible results like some say.
What do you think can happen in Estonia and Finland that could change the championship? Kalle having 2 DNFs, Tanak having 0 problems, Neuville finding speed in fast gravel rallies (if the car doesn't disassemble itself) all sound like fantasy settings.

[Hüttünen]

Yes can confirm this, our president just declared a state of emergency as people were freaking out too much

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

Relax and Leto svet https://youtu.be/LRh9PzNYD-8

[TypeR]

Kalle is in attack mode, Estonians here in panic mode. This is great! 🍒


Relax and Leto svet https://youtu.be/LRh9PzNYD-8

Still in longero mode..?
Where did Kalle's attack mode disappear?

[Eli]

Missed (most of) the rally due to being abroad (long story), the rally seems to be quite nice actually, but like many people mentioned here already, better tires (ehm, go away Pirelli) & better reliability from both Cumbria & Alzenau would be much appreciated at this point.

[er88]

Oh man, imo Neuville is most fun to watch when he’s on ragged edge and pushing like crazy.I will always remember that Golden Stage victory in Cyprus in 2011, during the IRC years....

[trykmann]

At Safari 1993 Toyota only had Shinozuka with Mitsubishi as a works competitor (and well, 3 Subaru Vivio...) so yes, nice reliability, but it's not such an incredible results like some say.
What do you think can happen in Estonia and Finland that could change the championship? Kalle having 2 DNFs, Tanak having 0 problems, Neuville finding speed in fast gravel rallies (if the car doesn't disassemble itself) all sound like fantasy settings.Kalle has had only good rallies so far and has gained a lot of points. Historically all the great champions are humans and have made 1-2 bad rallies due to technical problems or driving errors.

Still i don't believe this will be enough for Ott or Thierry to beat Kalle.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk

[becher]

God, I wonder what the reactions here would be if the forum existed during Safari 1993 (which ended in a similar result as today, fyi...). Yeah, ok Toyota seems to have the upper hand at the moment but nothing is written in stone yet. Estonia and Finland will determine where the championship leans to. The regulations stuff is a much bigger discussion and depends on how everyone (teams, FIA, promoter, organizers, fans) view the future of rallying. My 2 cents for now.

The forum would've gone mad in the good old days plenty of time. "Salonen leads again in the Peugeot by 5 minutes?! THE SPORT IS DEAD!"

[denkimi]

The biggest problem for rovanpera is that ogier is taking many points away.

[AndyRAC]

I will always remember that Golden Stage victory in Cyprus in 2011, during the IRC years....

Yeah, I was convinced we were seeing a future World Champion, he seemed destined for it......

[AndyRAC]

The forum would've gone mad in the good old days plenty of time. "Salonen leads again in the Peugeot by 5 minutes?! THE SPORT IS DEAD!"

Not really, it was the nature of the sport then. To use the words of the late Charly Lamm, you either get Endurance, or you don't; most modern rally fans don't.

[becher]

Not really, it was the nature of the sport then. To use the words of the late Charly Lamm, you either get Endurance, or you don't; most modern rally fans don't.

Well you had those kind of gaps also sometimes on rallies like Finland or Sweden which were no more than 400km some years either

[Rallyper]

Manual acceptance by admins. But no admins around for years.

What? Where´s PLUTO? Isn´t he admin?

Edit: Also saw it was Estonian forum. Not this one. Sorry Pluto...

[meh]

Next stop - Estonia.

First "pre-event-test-Rally" on 8th of July. Tänak is probably organizing test-day for himself :)
3 different stages, each will have 3 passes - so it's 9 total.

.. and then Rally Estonia, 20th to 23th July.

[denkimi]

Yeah, I was convinced we were seeing a future World Champion, he seemed destined for it......
He has the speed, but he never had the tactical ability to pick a good team. Plus he was up against what may be the best rally driver ever, ogier.

[Andre Oliveira]

Final results pending Stewards Decision for car No. 11.

[meh]

Final results pending Stewards Decision for car No. 11.

Which is Neuville, but what is the issue?

Potential source: https://twitter.com/AnttiL_WRC/status/1673051993525350405/photo/1

Also Solberg got 2min penalty for using too many tires, but it did not change his place.

[ouvreur]

Can only be technical if it’s related to post-event scrutineering.

[Tauri_J]

He has the speed, but he never had the tactical ability to pick a good team. Plus he was up against what may be the best rally driver ever, ogier.

None of those you mentioned is not the main issue with Neuville. He has no consistency. Once he is in a fight he makes stupid mistakes or crashes.

[focus206]

None of those you mentioned is not the main issue with Neuville. He has no consistency. Once he is in a fight he makes stupid mistakes or crashes.

Once he is in a fight? He was in a tight rally-long battle in Sweden and Mexico, beating Rovanpera and Evans without mistakes. The majority of his mistakes are when he's not in a close battle, not pushing 100%... some drivers seem to make more mistakes in those situations, same for Lappi, who admitted it himself in Mexico. Still acamedic for both of them, since they're driving a Hyundai.

[Andre Oliveira]

That’s my arrow 😅 Pic of my portuguese group.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzfzIf2WcAISPVA?format=jpg&name=large

[ouvreur]

Holy balls, that’s incredible…

[Eli]

Holy balls, that’s incredible…

So power stage win for Tänak?

[focus206]

Village team... I thought it was obvious you couldn't send people to do further reconnaissance

[ouvreur]

Village team... I thought it was obvious you couldn't send people to do further reconnaissance

That doesn’t normally stop them (and I mean all of them) but I think it’s unprecedented that some action has been taken against one…

[Tauri_J]

Holy hell, thats straight cheating

[Corcaíoch]

Anyone know if this is as much of a rookie mistake as it seems or is it the type of thing all teams try to do but Neuville got caught?

[Andre Oliveira]

After the timecard “save”…

[CeskyOndra]

I think that this situation will be more complicated than it seems..

[becher]

After the timecard “save”…

What happened?

[becher]

I think that this situation will be more complicated than it seems..

Could be, I'd bet on the media and promoter to disappoint us yet again.

[focus206]

"The driver took the onus of responsibility": I wonder why Neuville did that, when it's obvious the person wasn't someone he hired on the streets unbeknownst to the team. To prevent a possible Hyundai team penalty which could have DQ'd Sordo as well?

[Humber]

Would a better procedure have been for Neuville (driver) to ask his team manager (Ozakinci) to ask the Clerk of the Course/ Organisers for an update on the rocks at kilometre XY? Then the updated rock information could have been provided to all the crews.

I would expect the Rally Commission people to do some 'incident' follow-up.

[CeskyOndra]

I dont know what to think about it right now.. Im dissapointed in Neuville, if he was really cheating and he was only one to do that.. :(

[focus206]

I dont know what to think about it right now.. Im dissapointed in Neuville, if he was really cheating and he was only one to do that.. :(

There's no means for any single driver to "cheat". How would you picture it? A driver goes to the bad part of Nairobi to hire illegal reconnaissance? Does the driver bring along a friend from his home country and rents him a car to do reconnaissance while hiding it from the team? No way. If you're a private driver with local connections, maybe.

[1988senna]

I really don't understand what's the point for hire people to do reconnaissance ? How can that benefit Neuville

[ouvreur]

Anyone know if this is as much of a rookie mistake as it seems or is it the type of thing all teams try to do but Neuville got caught?

It’s certainly not a rookie mistake.

[denkimi]

where there no ouvreurs in safari?

[meh]

It's Toyota 1-2-3 in championship overall standings now.

[meh]

also, with updated resutlts - 10th place from rally was Prokop and he lost 38min.

[TypeR]

Didn't change anything but Solberg got 2min penalty for using 1 tyre too much.

[Corcaíoch]

I worded that badly sorry, I meant rookie mistake in getting caught. I'm sure any driver of his experience would be fully aware of the rules and what they were doing.
My question was intended to be more focussd on if people thought this might be more common than we think (by Neuville or other drivers) or actually just a once off?

[J4MIE]

I worded that badly sorry, I meant rookie mistake in getting caught. I'm sure any driver of his experience would be fully aware of the rules and what they were doing.
My question was intended to be more focussd on if people thought this might be more common than we think (by Neuville or other drivers) or actually just a once off?

Yes it’s more common. The rookie mistake was getting caught.

[mousti]

where there no ouvreurs in safari?Only allowed on asphalt events.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn 2201123G met Tapatalk

[becher]

where there no ouvreurs in safari?

route note crew in english?

[J4MIE]

The thing is that there are rocks everywhere on the stages. Some we came across I suspect were put there by spectators.
There was some info the organisers gave about particularly rough parts, but it’s impossible to do it for whole stages.

A lot of the Safari is driving to what you see as so many things can/have changed since recce.

[Rallyper]

Anyone know if this is as much of a rookie mistake as it seems or is it the type of thing all teams try to do but Neuville got caught?

Without knowing, but referring to almost 60 years of following the sport of rallying, I´d say yes. So much rumours on lower levels and also from stories telled by people involved in international rallying decades ago, says to me this only tip of the iceberg.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Hyundai talking about the placement of anti-cutting devices after recce. Is this meant to be mitigation ?

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundais-neuville-statement-raises-further-question/

[meh]

Information-doping in rally :)

I assume it's not that big issue nowadays for WRC events, as there is huge amount of information available from previous years onboards, everyone do their own recce onboards, also there is often Google Streetview available. Those don't cover last-minute changes like anti-cutting devices, like it was the case with Neuville, but it gives way more information than "just 2 passes".

[meh]

But from that perspective - should it be allowed for the crews not yet started to stage follow all-live feed? It gives competitive advantage from the latest situation on the road.

[becher]

But from that perspective - should it be allowed for the crews not yet started to stage follow all-live feed? It gives competitive advantage from the latest situation on the road.

It does, but usually they got plenty of other things to do in the last few minutes.

[denkimi]

Weird they got caught. It doesn't seem that hard to have someone check a few things without it being traceable back to a team or driver.

[meh]

Weird they got caught. It doesn't seem that hard to have someone check a few things without it being traceable back to a team or driver.

I guess all the cars driving those stages are known - as I understood it's private/closed area for public traffic and it's easy to track all cars driving there. I think Jamie can give us more information about the situation there or how (not) hard is to someone pass those stages and being not noticed.

[DoN_cz]

Where do you draw the line of what is and what isn't anymore allowed? Each team has it's own meteo crews who are up in the stages, sending back not only information about weather, but I suppose also photos of potential hazards. In Sardegna I saw them measure the depth of watersplash. Though in this case, meteo crews are registered for each them, unlike "friend of Neuville" I suppose.

[meh]

Where do you draw the line of what is and what isn't anymore allowed? Each team has it's own meteo crews who are up in the stages, sending back not only information about weather, but I suppose also photos of potential hazards. In Sardegna I saw them measure the depth of watersplash. Though in this case, meteo crews are registered for each them, unlike "friend of Neuville" I suppose.

Personally - I don't think it's effective disallowing collecting information by rules, as it's really hard to achieve it. If there are rules, you know them and you need to follow them. In Neuville's case - he know he was going to do something against the rules and from that perspective there is nothing to complain for him.

I'm not a rally driver and probably can not give an good valuation here - but how much more information you actually can gain? How much information you can put to your pace-notes. And from that perspective - what it gives extra after your 2 recce passes which you have recorded anyway.

The goal is - everyone have equal amount of information and that's why I ask, how does it makes sense to late-starters to follow all-live feed and collecting the latest information available, it's especially case for powerstages.

Anyway, however much information you have - you need to put it to your driving.

[Corcaíoch]

Without knowing, but referring to almost 60 years of following the sport of rallying, I´d say yes. So much rumours on lower levels and also from stories telled by people involved in international rallying decades ago, says to me this only tip of the iceberg.
This would be what I thought too. Judging by other comments online too it seems it would be more surprising if this was an isolated incident. It will be interesting to see what more comes from the story. Be great if someone like Dirtfish make a push to investigate if its more widespread but doubt they'll be willing to rock many boats unfortunately.

[240RS]

This story doesn't seem about to go:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-hyundais-illegal-recce-claims-wide-of-the-mark/

[focus206]

lol, Colin Clark's naivety is almost bigger than Hyundai's, he actually believes Hyundai wasn't the one hiring the reconnaissance dude? :D
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/colin-clarks-2023-safari-rally-kenya-driver-ratings/

"I’m absolutely shocked at the stupidity of Thierry Neuville’s actions here in Kenya.

Illegal recceing is, and always has been, one of the most serious offences in rallying. So much so that we’ve seen drivers banned for fairly lengthly periods in the past for cheating in this way.

It’s beyond belief that a team of Hyundai’s experience should allow this to happen.

What was already a very difficult weekend for the team has, overnight, become catastrophic.

There are still many unanswered questions around this incident that may or may not mitigate Neuville’s actions.

I for one though just feel enormous disappointment that one of our biggest stars should be caught doing something he so obviously shouldn’t have been doing."

[denkimi]

There used to be times when delecour was praised because he knew people living in the mountains around monte carlo who would tell him if it was snowing or not.

It is of course common practice, everywhere by everyone. But that doesn't make it legal. If you get caught, you should get punished.

[ictus]

"The people connected to Neuville were stopped by event officials on a private estate in Kenya"
If they were cought by the officials, why wait till after the rally do DSQ them?

[becher]

lol, Colin Clark's naivety is almost bigger than Hyundai's, he actually believes Hyundai wasn't the one hiring the reconnaissance dude? :D
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/colin-clarks-2023-safari-rally-kenya-driver-ratings/

"I’m absolutely shocked at the stupidity of Thierry Neuville’s actions here in Kenya.

Illegal recceing is, and always has been, one of the most serious offences in rallying. So much so that we’ve seen drivers banned for fairly lengthly periods in the past for cheating in this way.

It’s beyond belief that a team of Hyundai’s experience should allow this to happen.

What was already a very difficult weekend for the team has, overnight, become catastrophic.

There are still many unanswered questions around this incident that may or may not mitigate Neuville’s actions.

I for one though just feel enormous disappointment that one of our biggest stars should be caught doing something he so obviously shouldn’t have been doing."

Clark is quite silly sometimes. On the podcast he showed that he can listen and reign it in a bit, but in writing he lacks someone to bounce of and come to his .

[Fast Eddie WRC]

lol, Colin Clark's naivety is almost bigger than Hyundai's, he actually believes Hyundai wasn't the one hiring the reconnaissance dude? :D
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/colin-clarks-2023-safari-rally-kenya-driver-ratings/

"I’m absolutely shocked at the stupidity of Thierry Neuville’s actions here in Kenya.

Illegal recceing is, and always has been, one of the most serious offences in rallying. So much so that we’ve seen drivers banned for fairly lengthly periods in the past for cheating in this way.

It’s beyond belief that a team of Hyundai’s experience should allow this to happen.

What was already a very difficult weekend for the team has, overnight, become catastrophic.

There are still many unanswered questions around this incident that may or may not mitigate Neuville’s actions.

I for one though just feel enormous disappointment that one of our biggest stars should be caught doing something he so obviously shouldn’t have been doing."

If it was the Hyundai team doing the hiring of the illegal recce people, why would this just be for the benefit of Neuville & Wydaeghe ? Wouldnt the info also be passed to Lappi and Sordo ?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Autosport:

Neuville’s co-driver Martijn Wydaeghe claimed in the stewards report that a person was sent to the stage to understand the “ambiguity to what constitutes corner-cutting and the anti-cutting measures that the organiser was perceived to have introduced following reconnaissance.”

Neuville took full responsibility and apologised for his lapse in judgement

[ouvreur]

lol, Colin Clark's naivety is almost bigger than Hyundai's, he actually believes Hyundai wasn't the one hiring the reconnaissance dude? :D
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/colin-clarks-2023-safari-rally-kenya-driver-ratings/

"I’m absolutely shocked at the stupidity of Thierry Neuville’s actions here in Kenya.

Illegal recceing is, and always has been, one of the most serious offences in rallying. So much so that we’ve seen drivers banned for fairly lengthly periods in the past for cheating in this way.

It’s beyond belief that a team of Hyundai’s experience should allow this to happen.

What was already a very difficult weekend for the team has, overnight, become catastrophic.

There are still many unanswered questions around this incident that may or may not mitigate Neuville’s actions.

I for one though just feel enormous disappointment that one of our biggest stars should be caught doing something he so obviously shouldn’t have been doing."

It's almost like he thinks it was Thierry himself with a bad-fitting wig and fake moustache who was caught driving the stages...

Colin Clark is a clown.

[focus206]

If it was the Hyundai team doing the hiring of the illegal recce people, why would this just be for the benefit of Neuville & Wydaeghe ? Wouldnt the info also be passed to Lappi and Sordo ?

Could be that Hyundai used this guy only for their main driver, could be that Hyundai used other guys for Lappi and Sordo who haven't been caught, could be that the info gathered by the caught guy was passed to Lappi and Sordo as well but they weren't thrown under the bus (most probable).
Otherwise, how do you explain this? Neuville brings someone from Belgium to do illegal recce in Kenya? Neuville hires some shady people on the streets with his personal money, while hiding it from the team? Come on, that's sci-fi.

[Eli]

Doesn’t seem to be widely reported but there was demonstrations against the rally in Naivasha this morning, complaining that promised jobs for the rally haven’t happened.
Police with teargas shifted them on.
2454

Still a lot of speculation that this will be the final WRC Safari.

Now the rally is over, is there still a lot of speculation the WRC won't be coming back to Kenya in 2024?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Could be that Hyundai used this guy only for their main driver, could be that Hyundai used other guys for Lappi and Sordo who haven't been caught, could be that the info gathered by the caught guy was passed to Lappi and Sordo as well but they weren't thrown under the bus (most probable).
Otherwise, how do you explain this? Neuville brings someone from Belgium to do illegal recce in Kenya? Neuville hires some shady people on the streets with his personal money, while hiding it from the team? Come on, that's sci-fi.

Why would Hyundai throw their top driver under the bus and not one of their others if that was possible ?

Its clear the recce was done for the benefit of Neuville either instigated by himself or the team, thars why only he is blamed. And I dont see Neuville apologising if it was organised by the team.

[focus206]

Why would Hyundai throw their top driver under the bus and not one of their others if that was possible ?

Because throwing Lappi or Sordo under the bus would be terribly unfair towards them and they might not stand for it. The guy who was caught said he was linked to Neuville, who's Hyundai's first driver and the one Hyundai cares the most to give additional info.
If the guy would have said "I was hired by the Hyundai team" = 3 DQs, maybe a bigger penalty for Hyundai.


Its clear the recce was done for the benefit of Neuville either instigated by himself or the team, thars why only he is blamed. And I dont see Neuville apologising if it was organised by the team.

I absolutely see Neuville taking the blame for the team to avoid 3 DQs and maybe more. It's a shame he's so loyal to that team. And by the point he was being questioned, he knew he was going to be DQd regardless.
And you're welcome to write down a plausible scenario in which Neuville instigated the illegal recce by himself, one that doesn't belong to fairy tales.

[SubaruNorway]

Nothing new, thought everyone was awere of this especially after Jari and Petter was stopped from doing recce. And on new events it's not like they see the stages for the first time on recce...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

@focus206 It's far from impossible that Neuville got someone to do the illegal recce and his later statement as good as confirms it for me.

“When asked, the Driver of Car No. 11 promptly admitted to the Stewards that he was aware of the identified person and that he had requested this person’s support in identifying specific concerns (areas where rocks had moved) in some Special Stages that the Crew will be required to compete on.

“The Driver presented an honest synopsis of the situation and apologised to the Stewards for his lapse in judgement. The Driver took the onus of responsibility for this infringement."

[focus206]

@focus206 It's far from impossible that Neuville got someone to do the illegal recce and his later statement as good as confirms it for me.


You keep copying and pasting what we all read from the Stewards. I thought a rally fan was able to read more between the lines of the sport... Let's break down these sentences again:
"When asked, the Driver of Car No. 11 promptly admitted to the Stewards that he was aware of the identified person" = he was aware, just like Hyundai was, very probably Lappi and Sordo were. There was no way of denying it.
"and that he had requested this person’s support in identifying specific concerns (areas where rocks had moved) in some Special Stages that the Crew will be required to compete on." = as I said multiple times already, if Neuville would have said the person was hired by Hyundai, the consequence would have been DQ for Neuville, Sordo, Lappi and a much worse negative press for Hyundai, maybe even a bigger penalty for the team.
"The Driver presented an honest synopsis of the situation and apologised to the Stewards for his lapse in judgement. The Driver took the onus of responsibility for this infringement." = same as above. What was he supposed to say? It's Hyundai's fault? He would have got DQd anyway and the team he apparently wants to spend his whole career in, unfortunately, wouldn't have liked that. It's Lappi or Sordo's fault? Come on, that's low...

I'm still waiting for you or Colin Clark to write down how is it possible that a Belgian driver in Kenya hires with his own money a guy to do illegal recce unbeknownst to the team. Saying "It's far from impossible" it's not a scenario. And I find it quite incredible you don't think that it's extremely more probable it's Hyundai that hires illegal recce (not the first time, probably not the last time) rather than undercover single drivers.

[ouvreur]

@focus206 I would say you are right in your assessment - it was either going to be one Hyundai driver, or all of them. He's taken the hit to avoid a whole-team DQ.

The most surprising thing is that Thierry / Martijn were the ones who ended up taking the penalty. We can only assume the person caught on the stages was wearing a 'Braver@Home' t-shirt, carrying a can of Jupiler, or spoke with a particularly strong Belgian accent.

While it is possible that the activity was actually arranged or coordinated by the team, I wouldn't say it's too far-fetched for individual crews themselves to arrange their own illegal gravel crew. At least, in the sense that some people in the camp might actually be aware it's going on, but in a way that can't be traced back to the team itself. That way, if they get caught, it will not result in the whole team being disqualified. Plausible deniability and all that. They're probably even briefed as such - to only admit to working for an individual crew.

[focus206]

The most surprising thing is that Thierry / Martijn were the ones who ended up taking the penalty. We can only assume the person caught on the stages was wearing a 'Braver@Home' t-shirt, carrying a can of Jupiler, or spoke with a particularly strong Belgian accent.

To me, the recce guy was either chosen to be Neuville's guy (meaning that Sordo and Lappi's guys weren't caught) or since Neuville is Hyundai's priority driver, for sure his concerns with those particular rocks had the priority over Sordo and Lappi's concerns. For the recce guy to say he was Lappi or Sordo's guy would have been such a low blow to them... And as you said, they're probably instructed to admit to be working for one driver.



While it is possible that the activity was actually arranged or coordinated by the team, I wouldn't say it's too far-fetched for individual crews themselves to arrange their own illegal gravel crew. At least, in the sense that some people in the camp might actually be aware it's going on, but in a way that can't be traced back to the team itself. That way, if they get caught, it will not result in the whole team being disqualified. Plausible deniability and all that. They're probably even briefed as such - to only admit to working for an individual crew.

I could believe crews arranging their own illegal recce if it was Neuville in Ypres, Tanak in Estonia/Finland, Delecour in Monte etc.
But in Safari? I think the chance the recce wasn't coordinated by the team is microscopic.

[PLuto]

I think the most important think in this story is who really was that person who was caught. For example, if it was brother of Thierry, everything should be more clear...

[rallyfiend]

I think the most important think in this story is who really was that person who was caught. For example, if it was brother of Thierry, everything should be more clear...

I hear the surname might have been De Mevius. If you believe rumours.

Sounds Belgian to me.

[manthey]

I hear the surname might have been De Mevius. If you believe rumours.

Sounds Belgian to me.Maybe?

https://www.ewrc-results.com/profile/10325-ghislain-de-mevius/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

'Reading between the lines' is just your opinion @focus206. And I bet you had a low opinion of Colin Clark already so no surprise you disagree with him.

I prefer to look at the majority of rally website reports, most of whom carry the interpretation that it was a person who was part of Neuville's background group. If this is true then it's an easy thing for him to have done.

[focus206]

'Reading between the lines' is just your opinion @focus206. And I bet you had a low opinion of Colin Clark already so no surprise you disagree with him.

I prefer to look at the majority of rally website reports, most of whom carry the interpretation that it was a person who was part of Neuville's background group. If this is true then it's an easy thing for him to have done.

Rally websites don't carry any interpretation, they just report what was written by the stewards. The stewards wrote what Neuville answered when questioned, nothing more, nothing less. And here we go back to what we've talked about multiple times about what Neuville said.
Of course I have a low opinion of Colin Clark. I'd say most rally fans that are into the sport enough to know who Colin Clark is, don't have a high opinion of him.

[seb_sh]

You guys forget that Neuville is allegedly the grand poobah over at Hyundai and he decides from what setup everyone has on the car to what the janitor has for lunch. According to that debating if the team or the driver did it is irrelevant. :P (this is a joke, in case it's not obvious)

[becher]

You guys forget that Neuville is allegedly the grand poobah over at Hyundai and he decides from what setup everyone has on the car to what the janitor has for lunch. According to that debating if the team or the driver did it is irrelevant. :P (this is a joke, in case it's not obvious)
He's also the prime minister of South Korea (allegedly).

[240RS]

2460

Lappi cooling his heels literally after an eventful Safari