[WRC] Ardeca Ypres Rally 2022

[EstWRC]

https://youtu.be/kwMXj_dWrpk

https://youtu.be/i5G1xI1gJbM

[AndersX]

where is his raw speed? one stage win once every blue moon? can't say he's like Novikov, who was very quick and never finished; forumaux is much more often than not among the slowest 3 drivers.


Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Think again - do you think all those frech people promoting him upwards, with just a limited experiance are some kind of dilletants? This guy just 5 years ago was reading books and then just catapulted to Wrc team, when to others it takes 10-15 years of different levels - you can not make it without the raw tallent and speed! Unless you are some heavily funded pay-driver.

[EstWRC]

Devillers vid https://youtu.be/2vjAXzcEHaA
Flat out videos https://youtu.be/Rv4smixYTzQ

[EstWRC]

Post-event Press Conference: https://www.fia.com/news/wrc-ypres-rally-o-tanak-be-honest-it-was-actually-quite-challenging-one


“Can we know if you are at the end of contract this year?
OT:
No, I have a contract for next year.”

But they didn’t ask with which team ….


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[Eli]

But they didn’t ask with which team ….


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Unfortunately for us.

[meh]

It is super hard to be Formaux fan, but he has to stay. He has zero results but he has that natural feel, natural capability, bravery and inner understanding about being fast in rally. If only there was a possiblity to give him a full season being allowed to go as fast as he can on every stage (=being allowed to destroy 13 cars), we would see surprises - new rally star.

Look back to history and you may find sympathy with all Estonians :)

[wyler]

But they didn’t ask with which team ….


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if it's not ending the current contract, i guess there are not so many options...

[Jarek Z]

Belgian legend Patrick Snijers wins RC3 class in Ypres. What a knock out! Congratulations! :)
https://rally-base.com/2022/ardeca-ypres-rally-2022/?ssId=7107&cupId=210&ssGroupId=1

[AnttiL]

Belgian legend Patrick Snijers wins RC3 class in Ypres. What a knock out! Congratulations! :)
https://rally-base.com/2022/ardeca-ypres-rally-2022/?ssId=7107&cupId=210&ssGroupId=1

Sami Pajari won almost all stages that he got to drive. It was just the wheel struts breaking that took his win.

[macebig]

Snijers is 65 and his best day (Manx win 1988) is nearly 35 years ago. Pajari should be beating him if he wants to advance his rallying career.

[AnttiL]

Snijers is 65 and his best day (Manx win 1988) is nearly 35 years ago. Pajari should be beating him if he wants to advance his rallying career.

So you think Pajari wasn’t faster?

[macebig]

Oh, Pajari was definitely faster. But, it's not that big of a measuring stick in 2022.

[Devillersvideo]

My new best of video of this particular event ;)

http://youtu.be/2vjAXzcEHaA

The Hyundai are the best top speed again.

[EstWRC]

Olivier de Wilde, La Dernière Heure (BEL)
Question for Ott. In the Power Stage, Theirry said that he has some issues with the transmission. Do you believe him?
OT:
I don’t go this way.

Did you talk with him about what happened yesterday, about what he said?
OT:
Yeah we spoke about it, it was probably some kind of game. It was what it was, you know. Everybody as you know, are under a lot of pressure and Thierry had the most, fighting in front of his home crowd, trying to bring the win home. It is important and I have no problem with that.

Did you see where he went off. He said to us that he was surprised by the dust. You were three minutes in front of him and there was no dust. He said it was impossible to avoid. Did you put the dust there for him?
OT:
Are you from Belgium?

Yes

I checked the onboard of that stage and compared Thierry and Ott

Quite a difference, Ott takes the deep cut in the left and avoids going on the gravel with the wheels.

Thierry for some reason doesn’t take the cut as deep and goes on the gravel with left wheel and slides off

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220822/7a5efc20983501cc1a0c15a306ddf1c0.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220822/c8f4c14d50a98612c2c6da20f0126eb5.jpg

[Integrale]

About the Lefebvre penalties... Alain Georges of DG Sport isn't too happy about the apparent 'setting up' of the complaint. Toksport had sent someone to film the corner at Wijtschate, both on SS11 and SS15. They had told all their drivers not to cut that corner. You can indeed see that Mikkelsen avoids the cut, which is clearly the fastest and safest line to take. Especially on SS15 the asphalt was filled with gravel. You can see the corner on the onboard from Lefebvre from 6 minutes 10 onwards. Lefebvre takes a very deep cut indeed. Four wheels off the road.

But it's the intent that disturbs Alain Georges the most. And I can follow him. He says that it sets a very bad precedent for other teams in years to come. Do we want positions getting changed because teams send cameramen out to 'catch' their adversaries doing a cut that's too deep? It's not the spirit of (this) rally.

I don't like it and it would've been a real shame if Mikkelsen won this way.

[Sergiow]

It is super hard to be Formaux fan, but he has to stay. He has zero results but he has that natural feel, natural capability, bravery and inner understanding about being fast in rally. If only there was a possiblity to give him a full season being allowed to go as fast as he can on every stage (=being allowed to destroy 13 cars), we would see surprises - new rally star.

from the french forum:
A quick little stat (for all those who cite Katsuta as an example of reliability compared to Fourmaux)
-Katsuta: 90 starts 22 retirments (22%)
-Fourmaux: 64 starts (it's really not a lot) 14 retirements (24%)

[cali]

from the french forum:
A quick little stat (for all those who cite Katsuta as an example of reliability compared to Fourmaux)
-Katsuta: 90 starts 22 retirments (22%)
-Fourmaux: 64 starts (it's really not a lot) 14 retirements (24%)And......?

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[Hartusvuori]

If counting only WRC/Rally1 starts, Fourmaux has 6 retirements out of 18 starts, Katsuta has 4 retirements out of 31 starts. So 33% and 13% How many super rallies there are, not bothered.

[mknight]

About the Lefebvre penalties... Alain Georges of DG Sport isn't too happy about the apparent 'setting up' of the complaint. Toksport had sent someone to film the corner at Wijtschate, both on SS11 and SS15. They had told all their drivers not to cut that corner. You can indeed see that Mikkelsen avoids the cut, which is clearly the fastest and safest line to take. Especially on SS15 the asphalt was filled with gravel. You can see the corner on the onboard from Lefebvre from 6 minutes 10 onwards. Lefebvre takes a very deep cut indeed. Four wheels off the road.

But it's the intent that disturbs Alain Georges the most. And I can follow him. He says that it sets a very bad precedent for other teams in years to come. Do we want positions getting changed because teams send cameramen out to 'catch' their adversaries doing a cut that's too deep? It's not the spirit of (this) rally.

I don't like it and it would've been a real shame if Mikkelsen won this way.

You mean that Toksport somehow managed to pursue Lefevbre to take 4 wheels off the road on both passes even though everyone was reminded before the start not to do it and no other P1-driver (WRC+WRC2 top) did it (says so in the stewards decision, I checked Tanak, Rossel, Ingram and MIkkelsen). Epic skills they have.
Clearly fastest and safest way that half of the field in Monte 2021 got penalized for, starting with Mikkelsen.
Btw. I thought it was the corner at 4:50 where Lefevbre is also much deeper than anyone else, one second here and one second there...

Besides trolling:

I agree that it was good that they didn't change the results with penalties. If the penaly happened Saturday evening it would be ok but not after everyone is finished. If Toksport timed the decision to happen first after finish they are both nasty and stupid (stupid cause after finish there is much lower chance they will change results), I am not 100% sure when they submitted it.



As for Toksport I think there is some bad blood in their squad, a bit for Monte 2021, but mostly for Liepaja 2021.

In Liepaja 2021:
- Franceschi (Toksport Clio) got penalty for some TC confusion that would have cost him a win, except they then excluded Seks for homologation issues (Liepaja was stewards fun party).

- Mikkelsen got 1 minute penalty after confusion on the startline of SS2. At that time there were COVID rules where co-driver doesn't get written starttime on timecard, just shown. The codriver either didn't get it clearly or forgot it. With 15s left on the clock he asked for starttime/confirmation again and didn't get it, instead getting new time one min later and 1 min penalty.
They appealed and Mikkelsen got startposition as if the penalty was removed for Sunday, with decision to take place later. Fought with "Team MRF" for virtual 2nd place whole Sunday and narrowly beat them on speed. Then after the finish (and before podium) codriver from that same team that fought for 2nd place was a witness that testified the start crew did everything correctly on SS2 and penatly was kept.... leading to first ever podium of MRF tires.
So they basically indicated they would remove the penalty (with the start position) and then kept it anyway based on the "loosing" team that got a position from it.


To follow your conspiracy levels:
The co-driver witnessing in Liepaja was somehow present near the startline of that stage even though they were starting 10 cars later. I don't think this had anything to do with it or was planned in any way, just like I don't think Toksport told their drivers not to cut there just so they could penalize Lefevbre (How do you convince Lefevbre to do something illegal?, also Ingram cut deeper than Rossel for example). According to stewards decision they watched the vid of all P1 drivers and nobody cut like Lefevbre.
In Ypres just from watching this one stage Lefevbre is much deeper on multiple corners sometimes with 4 wheels off.

[J4MIE]

About the Lefebvre penalties... Alain Georges of DG Sport isn't too happy about the apparent 'setting up' of the complaint. Toksport had sent someone to film the corner at Wijtschate, both on SS11 and SS15. They had told all their drivers not to cut that corner. You can indeed see that Mikkelsen avoids the cut, which is clearly the fastest and safest line to take. Especially on SS15 the asphalt was filled with gravel. You can see the corner on the onboard from Lefebvre from 6 minutes 10 onwards. Lefebvre takes a very deep cut indeed. Four wheels off the road.

But it's the intent that disturbs Alain Georges the most. And I can follow him. He says that it sets a very bad precedent for other teams in years to come. Do we want positions getting changed because teams send cameramen out to 'catch' their adversaries doing a cut that's too deep? It's not the spirit of (this) rally.

I don't like it and it would've been a real shame if Mikkelsen won this way.

So all crews should just follow the rules then, right? ;)

[EstWRC]

Great video https://youtu.be/8-OumTfkgvY

[WRCStan]

About the Lefebvre penalties... Alain Georges of DG Sport isn't too happy about the apparent 'setting up' of the complaint. Toksport had sent someone to film the corner at Wijtschate, both on SS11 and SS15. They had told all their drivers not to cut that corner. You can indeed see that Mikkelsen avoids the cut, which is clearly the fastest and safest line to take. Especially on SS15 the asphalt was filled with gravel. You can see the corner on the onboard from Lefebvre from 6 minutes 10 onwards. Lefebvre takes a very deep cut indeed. Four wheels off the road.

But it's the intent that disturbs Alain Georges the most. And I can follow him. He says that it sets a very bad precedent for other teams in years to come. Do we want positions getting changed because teams send cameramen out to 'catch' their adversaries doing a cut that's too deep? It's not the spirit of (this) rally.

I don't like it and it would've been a real shame if Mikkelsen won this way.

Funny that Toksport agreed that one pass was more extreme than the other which resulted in 5 seconds and 10 seconds penalty. If they'd have argued that's besides the point maybe they'd have got 2x 10s penalty and the win?

It's said in the appeals that this particular corner was discussed with a manufacturer, the stewards and the organiser after the recce; so if Toksport knew specifically to send out a camera here, surely Georges/Lefebvre knew about it too? If so, who's the idiots?

[mknight]

Lefebvre's explanation (in stewards decision) is that he cut the corner "for safety reasons".

It also says the protest was submitted before PS. I rechecked that during that penalty party in Monte 2021 everyone was getting 5s per cut. Since Lefebvre was at that time 23s up it was unlikely they would change results. (Maybe to put pressure (or make him cut less) before PS, but dunno when Lefebvre got to know).

Still I think the timing of the appeal was bad. Should have done it saturday evening. Also still stand that it was good not to change results.

[ouvreur]

If you compare what Lefebvre did, on the corner he was penalised for twice in Ypres, with the corner that brought about all the penalties in SS4/7 of Monte 2021, it's actually quite offensive that Lefebvre got any sort of penalty at all here.

In Ypres, we're talking centimetres at most, to the wrong side of some imaginary line through a single corner, with the penalty for the second offence being more severe than for the first.

In Monte, it was metres, missing one corner completely, with the penalties for first and second offences being the same.

I can see why Alain Georges is upset. I would be too.

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/colin-clarks-2022-ypres-rally-driver-ratings/

[mknight]

If you compare what Lefebvre did, on the corner he was penalised for twice in Ypres, with the corner that brought about all the penalties in SS4/7 of Monte 2021, it's actually quite offensive that Lefebvre got any sort of penalty at all here.

In Ypres, we're talking centimetres at most, to the wrong side of some imaginary line through a single corner, with the penalty for the second offence being more severe than for the first.

In Monte, it was metres, missing one corner completely, with the penalties for first and second offences being the same.

I can see why Alain Georges is upset. I would be too.

In Monte it was first time people were getting penalized for this big time. Also might have something to do with the sheer number of drivers ( I count at least 15 including half of Rally1 still in the rally).

Since then they are specially warned not to cut.

Here Lefebvre was half a car (1m) more in than anyone else (Rossel included, Rossel even cut less than Ingram), twice on the same corner and on a few others. Just check the other corner on same SS15 at 4:50. Except on the other corner(s) there weren't people filming that send in a complaint.

The stewards decision also says that they don't consider onboards as enough proof. Lucky for Lefebvre.

AG should just be happy the stewards made the good decision not to change whole results, instead of complaining that someone caught them braking the rules.

[mknight]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/colin-clarks-2022-ypres-rally-driver-ratings/

As I wrote on twitter.

Feels strange seeing CC complain about people giving "abuse" to Solberg for Finland and then reading all the zero and 1 point scores he gives. As long as comments towards Solberg are on similar level it is the same, except CC does this for a living.

Sure there is a line but can't draw it at being unable to say anything.

--------

The scores this time are fine. Whether the low ones should be 0, 1 or 2 points doesn't really matter.

[Eli]

Btw, this might have gone under the radar, but this was only the second podium on tarmac for Lappi, with his first being way back in Germany 2018, I know he didn't display any amazing times but he managed to keep his nose clean and get another good result.

[AnttiL]

Btw, this might have gone under the radar, but this was only the second podium on tarmac for Lappi, with his first being way back in Germany 2018, I know he didn't display any amazing times but he managed to keep his nose clean and get another good result.

Also first time Lappi scores two consecutive podiums. Usually a podium (or other great result like Sardegna 2017) has resulted in a crash in the next rally.

[mknight]

Btw, this might have gone under the radar, but this was only the second podium on tarmac for Lappi, with his first being way back in Germany 2018, I know he didn't display any amazing times but he managed to keep his nose clean and get another good result.

I think he did very well and precisely what was missing up to this point of the season (including in Finland).

His job at Toyota right now should not be to charge for wins and risk crashes, especially not when one or both other Toyotas are out (yes, talking about Sardinia), or on first stage (Croatia).
His main job is to score points when the two top drivers have an issue and score more points than Hyundai.

I heard somewhere (pbrly Allive) that this might have saved his seat for next year (vs Katsuta), I can agree on that.

[Eli]

I think he did very well and precisely what was missing up to this point of the season (including in Finland).

His job at Toyota right now should not be to charge for wins and risk crashes, especially not when one or both other Toyotas are out (yes, talking about Sardinia), or on first stage (Croatia).
His main job is to score points when the two top drivers have an issue and score more points than Hyundai.

And like you said he delivered that very well, hopefully he can keep the momentum and not mock it up on an event everyone but him & Breen did last year.

[Integrale]

You mean that Toksport somehow managed to pursue Lefevbre to take 4 wheels off the road on both passes even though everyone was reminded before the start not to do it and no other P1-driver (WRC+WRC2 top) did it (says so in the stewards decision, I checked Tanak, Rossel, Ingram and MIkkelsen). Epic skills they have.

No, I mean that I can understand Alain Georges if he's upset with the behaviour of the Toksport team. I don't like it as well. You're reading things that aren’t there.


I agree that it was good that they didn't change the results with penalties. If the penaly happened Saturday evening it would be ok but not after everyone is finished. If Toksport timed the decision to happen first after finish they are both nasty and stupid (stupid cause after finish there is much lower chance they will change results), I am not 100% sure when they submitted it.

The two protests were received on Sunday at 12:55 and 12:56. Alain Georges said that he was informed of the protests on the podium of the rally. He initially thought that Lefebvre didn't follow the liasion route or something, so he seemed pretty unaware of what might be the issue.


To follow your conspiracy levels: (irrelevant stuff), just like I don't think Toksport told their drivers not to cut there just so they could penalize Lefevbre (How do you convince Lefevbre to do something illegal?, also Ingram cut deeper than Rossel for example). According to stewards decision they watched the vid of all P1 drivers and nobody cut like Lefevbre. In Ypres just from watching this one stage Lefevbre is much deeper on multiple corners sometimes with 4 wheels off.

What you believe isn’t really what matters. What matters for me is that one of the Toksport team members (Bernt Kollevold) went to a turn to film the competitors of Andreas Mikkelsen. Nobody forced Lefebvre to cut that deep, that’s absolutely right. But I want to add that Ypres Rally has a lot of these places. It’s part of the character of the rally.

If you want to enforce this rule in Ypres all competitors will get penalties. But you can’t really enforce it in a way that treats everyone the same. The FIA or the organisation can’t control it. The only way to enforce it is by complaints. That’s the issue. It’s arbitrary. And to add to that, teams have an incentive to ‘catch’ their adversaries.


So all crews should just follow the rules then, right?

Maybe you guys can understand it with the picture below.

If your conclusion is that DG Sport should’ve filed a complaint for this cut, then that’s exactly what my problem is.

People make the argument that Lefebvre ‘knew it’ and ‘he’s the idiot’. In the Stewards Decisions there’s a reference to the Clerk of the Course Communication 6. This communication was the result of ‘a Manufacturer raising the question of corner cutting before the event’. The Clerk of the Course Communication 6 says: “Furthermore, on the special stages the organisers may erect barriers or any other hindrances where they believe competitors have deviated from the roadway during reconnaissance or the first running of the stages. Any deviation will be reported to the Stewards.”

This is a very general statement. I really don’t think Lefebvre knew about anything. He drove like he always does in Belgium. I’m not sure about that of course, but it doesn’t really matter for me actually.

About the suggestion to put barriers in cuts… I don't think it would be smart if the organisation started putting up blocks or haybales after the recce has finished. I think everybody on this forum understands why.

[mknight]

... Toksport had sent someone to film the corner at Wijtschate, both on SS11 and SS15. They had told all their drivers not to cut that corner....




What you believe isn’t really what matters. What matters for me is that one of the Toksport team members (Bernt Kollevold) went to a turn to film the competitors of Andreas Mikkelsen.


Indeed, what you believe isn't what really matters. Here is your conspiracy theory that Toksport sent him to film specifically competitors of Mikkelsen and then specifically told their drivers not to cut on that specific corner.
Somehow Ingram and Rossel got the memo backwards then, as Ingram cut much more than Rossel, who was similar to Mikkelsen... and both meters off Lefevbre.

I watched the two runs of onboards of Lefevbre and compared with Mikkelsen, Rossel and Ingram (all Rally2 available at that point) and it was immediatelly clear that Lefevbre was deeper on all cuts where you could pick. It's not that it was just specific corner where everything was different. Sure I haven't watched other stages.





If you want to enforce this rule in Ypres all competitors will get penalties. But you can’t really enforce it in a way that treats everyone the same. The FIA or the organisation can’t control it. The only way to enforce it is by complaints. That’s the issue. It’s arbitrary. And to add to that, teams have an incentive to ‘catch’ their adversaries.

Maybe you guys can understand it with the picture below.

If your conclusion is that DG Sport should’ve filed a complaint for this cut, then that’s exactly what my problem is.


How deep is ok is for stewards/rules to decide and clearly indicate. Don't see the big issue as long as there is a clear definition. For example "not all 4 wheels off the road". (Was there one communicated before the rally? I dunno, some senteces seem to point to that). If that picture is from SS and all wheels are off road (not 100% clear angle) then that should lead to same penalty (5s for first offence) if there is to be a consistency.

There has to be a clear line of what is allowed and what is not. Not a fluffy one, where one thinks is ok while others don't.




I really don’t think Lefebvre knew about anything. He drove like he always does in Belgium.

I think so as well, and with this penalty the stewards indicated that this way was not ok for WRC. This limit should have been clearly communicated to everyone before the rally.




About the suggestion to put barriers in cuts… I don't think it would be smart if the organisation started putting up blocks or haybales after the recce has finished. I think everybody on this forum understands why.

Obviously those should be put before recce like it is usually done on just about all rallies.

[ouvreur]

Indeed, what you believe isn't what really matters. Here is your conspiracy theory that Toksport sent him to film specifically competitors of Mikkelsen and then specifically told their drivers not to cut on that specific corner.
Somehow Ingram and Rossel got the memo backwards then, as Ingram cut much more than Rossel, who was similar to Mikkelsen... and both meters off Lefevbre.
You know who the cameraman is, right? Or more importantly, who he works for / with, and in what capacity (https://www.rallye-sport.fr/les-ouvreurs-du-monte-carlo-2022/)?

I wouldn't have said the 'conspiracy' involved the whole team. Just the one crew. In fact, such a small circle of trust to the point that none of the other crews being serviced by the same team (I hesitate to call them team-mates in this instance) probably had a clue the 'sting' was happening. But a sting WAS happening.

Taking the facts that are available to us into consideration, it seems that the protesting crew:

-knew this corner would be somewhere a committed driver with lots of Belgian experience would take a bigger than legal cut
-sent their man to film at that location with the express intent of gathering evidence of car 24 taking such a cut
-made sure they were as neat and tidy as possible to set a nice contrast
-sat on the evidence until the end of the event, then tried to use it to get a crew that had beaten them fairly resoundingly over three days of rallying enough of a penalty to overhaul them

I don't like it. The stewards shouldn't have entertained it. The organisers shouldn't have allowed it to happen. Tell me why I'm wrong.

[Integrale]

Indeed, what you believe isn't what really matters. Here is your conspiracy theory that Toksport sent him to film specifically competitors of Mikkelsen and then specifically told their drivers not to cut on that specific corner.
Oh, but that's not my conspiracy theory. :) That's what Alain Georges tells himself. If you understand French you can listen yourself. There are some other examples as well. https://www.facebook.com/paulfraikinchampions/videos/1314785685721366/.

I watched the two runs of onboards of Lefevbre and compared with Mikkelsen, Rossel and Ingram (all Rally2 available at that point) and it was immediatelly clear that Lefevbre was deeper on all cuts where you could pick. It's not that it was just specific corner where everything was different. Sure I haven't watched other stages.
So Lefebvre made deeper cuts than other drivers.

How deep is ok is for stewards/rules to decide and clearly indicate. Don't see the big issue as long as there is a clear definition. For example "not all 4 wheels off the road". (Was there one communicated before the rally? I dunno, some senteces seem to point to that). If that picture is from SS and all wheels are off road (not 100% clear angle) then that should lead to same penalty (5s for first offence) if there is to be a consistency. There has to be a clear line of what is allowed and what is not. Not a fluffy one, where one thinks is ok while others don't.
Aha! So now we're on the path that manufacturers need to check the cutting of their competitors. Because if one does it, they all need to do it. That's not the way I want to see the sport evolve. Respect the track limits like in Formula 1.

Think about it again. A Toksport team member went to a turn to film a deep cut of the rivals. He went there with that purpose. A day later, his video is used in a complaint in an attempt to win the rally after the rally has finished. I think it's far from fair play and far from the spirit of rally.

Obviously those should be put before recce like it is usually done on just about all rallies. Can't see how it is difficult to see the problematic corners before recce.
You've never been to Ypres I think? Ypres is all about cutting.

Outside assistance is also forbidden on the stages, right? So helping cars back on the road - a common practice in many countries, part of the rally spirit - is a practice that should be sanctioned?

[mknight]

Aha! So now we're on the path that manufacturers need to check the cutting of their competitors. Because if one does it, they all need to do it. That's not the way I want to see the sport evolve. Respect the track limits like in Formula 1.



Competitors self-regulate themselves quite a bit. If they know they risk a penalty for taking 4 wheels of the road, they won't do it. They won't rely on "not getting caught" cause it's too big risk.

There have to be rules right, you are not suggesting that cars drive where they want and it depends on gentleman's agreement?




Think about it again. A Toksport team member went to a turn to film a deep cut of the rivals. He went there with that purpose. A day later, his video is used in a complaint in an attempt to win the rally after the rally has finished. I think it's far from fair play and far from the spirit of rally.


Toksport team member was in a turn on a rally and was filming. That's the facts, what purpose he went there for is speculation.

On one side you can have deep conspiracy theories (ref other post) on the other side he could just go in a corner and afterwards notice that Lefevbre was the only one completely off the road, or it can be something in between.

As noted before the protest was submitted before PS, when the gap was 23s. In Monte which was the only recent example people got penalized 5s per cut. Even with 10s it wouldn't be enough to win.
So it is not clear that the complaint was "attempt to win the rally".

But I totally agree they should have submitted it Saturday evening and if it was on purpose this late it is bad form.
At the same time it is stupid, cause it is much less likely the stewards will change the results after the race is finished.




You've never been to Ypres I think? Ypres is all about cutting.


Sure so cutting straight across a field (like Mikkelsen did in Poland 2015 or so) is ok? For sure not, so you need to draw a line.



Outside assistance is also forbidden on the stages, right? So helping cars back on the road - a common practice in many countries, part of the rally spirit - is a practice that should be sanctioned?

Now you are just being stupid.

[ouvreur]

People need to stop calling him a Toksport team member. It's disingenuous. The man is Andreas Mikkelsen's regular gravel crew driver. You think he just so happened to be at that corner? That's a naive assessment at best.

Call it a conspiracy, call it what you want, it's bad sportsmanship and it should not have even gone as far as the stewards.

[mknight]

You know who the cameraman is, right? Or more importantly, who he works for / with, and in what capacity (https://www.rallye-sport.fr/les-ouvreurs-du-monte-carlo-2022/)?

I wouldn't have said the 'conspiracy' involved the whole team. Just the one crew. In fact, such a small circle of trust to the point that none of the other crews being serviced by the same team (I hesitate to call them team-mates in this instance) probably had a clue the 'sting' was happening. But a sting WAS happening.

Taking the facts that are available to us into consideration, it seems that the protesting crew:

-knew this corner would be somewhere a committed driver with lots of Belgian experience would take a bigger than legal cut
-sent their man to film at that location with the express intent of gathering evidence of car 24 taking such a cut
-made sure they were as neat and tidy as possible to set a nice contrast
-sat on the evidence until the end of the event, then tried to use it to get a crew that had beaten them fairly resoundingly over three days of rallying enough of a penalty to overhaul them

I don't like it. The stewards shouldn't have entertained it. The organisers shouldn't have allowed it to happen. Tell me why I'm wrong.

Sure it was all deep sting with a small circle of thrust.......and the illuminati are among them..

- So they knew that Lefevbre will be the only one cutting with 4 wheels off (and breaking the rules - your words) none of other Rally1s or P1 Rally2s did, as confirmed by stewards.
- If you watch first pass (SS11) Mikkelsen is actually too fast into the cut and runs wide on the tarmac, for sure that would lead to being more tidy on next pass. Contrast wasn't vs Mikkelsen it was vs everyone

- last is in previous post, submitting the evidence towards the end is stupid cause it's less likely to change results and previous penalty history gave no reason it would work

The stewards did not take it as you suggest, cause they didn't change the results. I agree the organisers should not have allowed this in the first place by being very clear about the rules or by adding anti-cuts.

[mknight]

Call it a conspiracy, call it what you want, it's bad sportsmanship and it should not have even gone as far as the stewards.

You said Lefevbre broke the rules, pointing it is bad sportsmanship and should not be reported to stewards? Are you serious?

-------------------

I fully agree that it is bad sportsmanship to report this too late on purpose (if it was), that's a quite different topic.

[rallyfiend]

I'm sure the only reason it was late, was because they waited to see if he did still stay in front as to whether to protest.

Of course you would always wait for that.

Same how the FIA wait until after the rally to check if a car is fully legal!

[ouvreur]

You said Lefevbre broke the rules, pointing it is bad sportsmanship and should not be reported to stewards? Are you serious?

I'd appreciate it if you stopped twisting my words and giving a false impression of what I object to.

Nobody of sound mind could have any problem with one competitor protesting the transgression of another. It's essential to the sport.

The way car 20 did it and their timing are what I disagree with. I also strongly disagree with the idea that Lefebvre somehow got an enormous advantage by being half a car further into this one cut, I don't like the way the precedent of Monte 2021 hasn't been followed, and think the penalty is disproportionate, though I appreciate the fact the stewards - maybe even deliberately - didn't penalise SL enough to cost him the lead.

BUT

I really don't think this matter should even have got to the stewards' room.

Now, please, don't twist my words again.

[Integrale]

Toksport team member was in a turn on a rally and was filming. That's the facts, what purpose he went there for is speculation.
:)

Yeah, this isn't really going anywhere, is it? Let's agree to disagree.

[mknight]

You assume that it was a deliberate effort (your own words) including:

- going to the spot and filming for this purpose
- telling Toksport crews or only Mikkelsen not to cut (nobody else than Lefebvre cut so much on all onboards, Mikkelsen cuts similar to others)
- sending complain before PS to win the rally (deadline to send was until 18h, why not after PS?)

Do you see there are quite a number of steps between facts and your assumptions?

I also disagree with the timing. But I am not making a ton of additional assumptions of how they planned two days in advance to win the rally. Certainly not assumptions that go against evidence.

---

With regards to advantage he got maybe a second, then it is two passes and then you have other spots. Like the one at 4:50 of same stage (which I orginally thought was the reported one). Maybe it might be interesting to watch other stages too, also to see what happened where that pic from Integrale was taken.

[mknight]

:)

Yeah, this isn't really going anywhere, is it? Let's agree to disagree.

No I want to know how do you keep drivers from unlimited cuts if you don't have any rules against it.

You seem to think that this cut was fine, yet the one in Monte wasn't (or I am wrong?).

So how do you differentiate between them?

I certainly believe you can't rely on "gentlements agreements" in a sport about millions decided by parts of a second.

[Eli]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/should-ypres-return-to-wrc/

A shame it won't, although I would add some night time stages if it's run at the end of August instead of it's usual June slot.

[WRCStan]

I'm sure the only reason it was late, was because they waited to see if he did still stay in front as to whether to protest.

Of course you would always wait for that.

Same how the FIA wait until after the rally to check if a car is fully legal!

Exactly. Isn't this actually the gentlemanly thing to do? If car 20 had crashed out on Sunday the appeal would have been worthless but would have taken up however long of the steward's time on Saturday evening. How many complaints would be lodged each weekend just in case they matter at the end, hundreds?

[Lead]

That Toksport vs Lefebvre situation is disgrace to the sport. Dont know if all this "circus'' was actually initiated by Mikkelsen himself but this just downgrades his reputation even more and so his chances to return to WRC1 team (if there was any). Sad.

[Danny0405]

Very surprised by one point in Colin Clark grades about Fourmaux:
The instructions could not have been clearer – forget the fight with Solberg and bring that car back in one piece.

Clearly, looking at his comments during the last day, Fourmaux was trying to catch 4th even being sick.
So either Clark is wrong about the team orders or Fourmaux deliberately refused them: if it’s the second option, either he is out before the end of the season for not respecting the orders (don’t see how this could not be sanctioned) or M-Sport and sponsors already told him he will be out for next year and he is trying to show himself to other manufacturers. Very strange behavior.

Only point that may save him a bit is that there are two tarmac rounds remaining and, without Loeb, he is maybe the best M-Sport tarmac driver on pure speed; but wouldn’t be surprised not to see him in New Zealand for example (Acropolis is a little bit early to organize a replacement).

[AnttiL]

Why need to organize replacement for Acropolis? Loeb is there. They have entered six Pumas!

[seb_sh]

One thing to the Lefebvre protest. The only unsportsmanship behavior is a driver cutting more than the others, more than allowed, more than discussed before the event. That and only that is unsporting. The rest are conspiracy theories.

[Rally Hokkaido]

"A Toksport team member went to a turn to film a deep cut of the rivals. He went there with that purpose. A day later, his video is used in a complaint in an attempt to win the rally after the rally has finished. I think it's far from fair play and far from the spirit of rally." A quick question regarding this: What about the regulation that forbids any team member being present on a Special Stage?

[Integrale]

One thing to the Lefebvre protest. The only unsportsmanship behavior is a driver cutting more than the others, more than allowed, more than discussed before the event. That and only that is unsporting. The rest are conspiracy theories.Okay.

So DG Sport did a bad job by not filming this spot. It cost them at least 5 seconds. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220824/ce59e16d04e91c5dd25a3751e747d22d.jpg

[CWJ]

A quick question regarding this: What about the regulation that forbids any team member being present on a Special Stage?

simply only existing in your dreams ...

[cali]

Okay.

So DG Sport did a bad job by not filming this spot. It cost them at least 5 seconds. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220824/ce59e16d04e91c5dd25a3751e747d22d.jpgThat should shut some Mikkelsen fanboys mouth :D
Let the filming wars begin

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[seb_sh]

Okay.

So DG Sport did a bad job by not filming this spot. It cost them at least 5 seconds. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220824/ce59e16d04e91c5dd25a3751e747d22d.jpg

Submit it to the FIA so they can penalise Mikkelsen also :D

[EstWRC]

So Thread closed?

[Lead]

Not like I care, but you can see in pictures that the cars are not in same spot. Lefebvre is already exiting the corner, few meters back he is in the same place as Mikkelsen.

[Integrale]

Submit it to the FIA so they can penalise Mikkelsen also :D
The complaint has to come from a competitor.

In a few pages you might begin to see the point some of us are trying to make here. Because some of you are trying your very best not to see it. It's like playing chess with a pigeon.

[cali]

Not like I care, but you can see in pictures that the cars are not in same spot. Lefebvre is already exiting the corner, few meters back he is in the same place as Mikkelsen.

True, but unlikely in that pic that Lefebre took a full cut there and Mr. "I Follow Rules Other Don't" did take a full cut.

[ouvreur]

"A Toksport team member went to a turn to film a deep cut of the rivals. He went there with that purpose. A day later, his video is used in a complaint in an attempt to win the rally after the rally has finished. I think it's far from fair play and far from the spirit of rally." A quick question regarding this: What about the regulation that forbids any team member being present on a Special Stage?

It's actually something specifically allowed by the sporting regulations (Article 56.2.1) - between the yellow control board of the arrival time control, to the exit of the stop control of each stage team members are allowed to be there, provided they respect the rest of the regulations regarding service / contact with the cars and team members.

[MentalParadox]

"A Toksport team member went to a turn to film a deep cut of the rivals. He went there with that purpose. A day later, his video is used in a complaint in an attempt to win the rally after the rally has finished. I think it's far from fair play and far from the spirit of rally."

Basically, they're saying "we got caught red-handed and now I want the person who caught us punished for catching us." Real popular in Belgium, where homeowners are arrested for violations of privacy if they use cameras or webcams to film burglars.

[flat_right]

Real popular in Belgium, where homeowners are arrested for violations of privacy if they use cameras or webcams to film burglars.

Will be off-topic but how on earth can this even be a thing? You can't film your own home? Like what...

[J4MIE]

They broke the rules and got penalised for it, nothing else matters.
You can submit a protest all the way up until the results going final, so again there’s no issue there at all.

[Integrale]

Will be off-topic but how on earth can this even be a thing? You can't film your own home? Like what...
It's not a thing because it's not true. You can film a burglar perfectly fine in your own home. Only the burglar gets arrested if they find him. But it sounded spectacular, right?


Basically, they're saying "we got caught red-handed and now I want the person who caught us punished for catching us."
They're not saying they want the person who filmed them punished. Nice pattern of alternative facts there.


They broke the rules and got penalised for it, nothing else matters.
You can submit a protest all the way up until the results going final, so again there’s no issue there at all.
Of course other things matter, like how you enforce the rules, the incoherence over all competitors (and rallies) and the effect it has on the fairplay between teams in the future.