Is The Btcc Getting Better

[GRAVETT]

i was a die hard btcc fan, then things changed i felt the driver skill vanished the teams vanished and the whole event was poorly managed so i didnt bother much with the btcc. that was until last year i attended a few events as i have this year and was suitible impressed with what i found. ok i still am not impressed with anything at the front of the grid but go mid field and the rear of the field and there are some of the most passionate racing drivers ive seen in a national championship for a long long time.
people like - martyn bell, dave pinkney etc are a fantastic advert for british motorsport and i hope they can get themselves up the front end and become the faces of the btcc.
thanks to all these guys and the teams for putting my faith back into the btcc. it reminds me of the good old days of the late 80's early 90's again.

[Ian McC]

ok i still am not impressed with anything at the front of the grid

Why?

[MBailey06]

I must agree with you about the midfield. I don't think there are many with as many fans as someone like Bell, and the cheer on when I was at Thruxton when Pinkney had a 2 second lead everyone was brilliant. Although I also must admit that there were times at Thruxton where accidents could have happened but the racing was cleaner than I have seen for a good many years. I mean 6 abreast into the Chicane? A couple of years ago I would have bet my life savings on half of them going off, but not this year.

[SEATFreak]

Correct me if I am wrong but when GRAVETT first came to us when on btcc.pages.com didn't GRAVETT say that today's BTCC isn't as good as older days?

But that is not what I came on to say. Though his tune seems to have changed a little I completely agree about the passion and commitment of the midfield talent. Though my alliegiences are clear I cannot help but admire their drive.

I think I can see a pattern of results form. Of the races they did finish I think most of the midfield talent have shown some consitency. Like Pinkney, Bell, Allison, Hughes, Leggate and Kizilirmark. Whereas Mike Jordan has just been a sensation with his results in a car that is supposed to be what the BTCC wan't to get away from.

[AlexD]

I think it seriously improved last year with the arrival of the likes of Pinkney and Jordan. Now there are some new drivers who can challenge the usual front runners like Plato. The arrival of Mat Jackson has made it even better.
I also like the fact that it's not easy to guess what car will win. Remember the Astra Coupe days?

[courageous]

Touring cars as a whole has definately had a few wobbly years recently.

But with close racing through the field, F1 drivers taking touring car drives (Monteiro WTCC) & 8 makes of car out there progress is definately being made.

Also, the last round was the first time in ages I was hooked from lights to flag for every race & to be honest, touring cars is not my preferred formula of racing (but they have 4 wheels so it's good enough).

[GRAVETT]

seatfreak i dont understand your point ( dont think anyone ever does) i still do not think its a good as the old days but it has seriously improved from what it has been ( cant a guy change his views )
and ian mCc in answer to your question, i'm not at all impressed with anything at the front of the field for some of the reasons i disliked the btcc to begin with, the driving standards are sub standard, people like plato, chilton etc are not real racers and i back that up with the facts that a real racing driver will never willingly use another car to ake a corner or blatently run others of the road. i think its kinda sad that these are the guys at the front of the field. i feel attitudes toward how the btcc should be seen need to be changed and that means not focussing on the crazy driving we see from the majority of the lead group. alot of people a re attrracted to the btcc because of the crashes and not close hard racing. accidents are part of motorsport and do happen but there are certain drivers that create accidents with malicious intent.
but hey these are just my views i suppose

[MBailey06]

The only thing that I think is missing is more variety in the field. Obviously there is a greater variety than in the WTCC, but there are potential cars out there that could come to the UK, such as the Peugeot 407 and the Audi A4, which I believe is racing in Sweden at the moment, even if it was only as an independent entry.

[SEATFreak]

seatfreak i dont understand your point ( dont think anyone ever does)

That is a very good impression of a stuck record. :laugh: :uhoh:

Then again your not alone in being blessed with that skill.

Mind, the point about Jase and Chilton not being real racers because they blatantly run others off the road appears from a personal point of view just as pointless. If anyone recall a time when Tom Chilton or Jason Plato have blantly tried to run others I will see it on the appropriate season DVD and will gladly admit Jason and/or Chilton are the kind of drivers that try to run others of the road.

[AlexD]

There was a works 407 in the WTCC last year, but they have pulled out to focus on Le mans. They may well return. There's also a Mercedes team in Sweden.

[GRAVETT]

hmmmm interesting seatfreak look at knockhill last year infact look at the majority of races last year for instances of reckless driving. who here would prefer to see a clean hard fought race without blantent contact ??

[GRAVETT]

i dont want to get into the contact issue so much as express my delight that we are now seeing ( albeit in the midfield and rear of the grid) some genuine racing and passion from the privateer teams. im becoming a fan again of the series and am so happy to be proven wrong about all the btcc is about is crashing and bashing.

[BM]

seatfreak i dont understand your point ( dont think anyone ever does)

BTW, I don't ever understand your posts since I can't actually read what you've typed - ever heard of punctuation, capital letters, new paragraphs etc? :rolleyes:

At least with SEATFreak I can read his posts, even if he talks utter rubbish! :p :

[VXRDartford]

i dont want to get into the contact issue so much as express my delight that we are now seeing ( albeit in the midfield and rear of the grid) some genuine racing and passion from the privateer teams. im becoming a fan again of the series and am so happy to be proven wrong about all the btcc is about is crashing and bashing.

If you don't like the standard of the BTCC (at the front etc.) don't watch it no one is forcing you.

To quote a film rubbin is racing. Fair enough there have been times where it has gone a bit to far but those drivers have been given penaltys.

Anyone who does not think that drivers like plato, giovanardi, turkington etc. are not proper racing drivers does not know what they are talking about. Anyway Schumi has used someone elses car to stop his into a corner twice and he is 7 times world champ

You don't know what you are talking bout

The BTCC as a whole package is almost back to where it was in the 90's and im loving it

[SEATFreak]

At least with SEATFreak I can read his posts,

What's this?! A supportive comment in my favour?!! :eek:

After a few years of membership Alfa Fan has yet to do what you have been able to do what must be almost straight away. Come out with a supportive comment for me. Alfa Fan et al could learn something.

Now, back to GRAVETT. To turn the tables, partly quoting Alfa Fan in a post I started, "I am struggling not to think GRAVETT's sole purpose is to talk rubbish". I completely agree with VXRDarford. The form and/or success of drivers like Giovanardi and Turks speaks volumes about the skill they must have not to resort to deliberate punting. Deliberate punting I hope is rare and when it has happened I trust Alan Gow enough to have done something about it when it did happen.

[BM]

What's this?! A supportive comment in my favour?!! :eek:

After a few years of membership Alfa Fan has yet to do what you have been able to do what must be almost straight away.

I've been around for a few years, so I have seen your "previous"! But that's all the support we can give you! :p : ;)


Now, back to GRAVETT.

I do seem to recall when GRAVETT first appeared he was talking nonsense and attacking the BTCC with some stupid arguement. Nothing's changed :up:

[GRAVETT]

my comments are fair ! the standards at the front are pretty poor, but as always only the negative aspects of people posts are only ever talked about. look at seatfreak, as much as this guy can be confusing he does at times have some very valid points but they are never recognised.
as for the stupid reply of 'if you dont like it dont watch it' i dont watch any of the tv because it focusses on the part i dont like, i pay my money and go to support and watch the areas of the btcc i do enjoy.
end of the day if i could be bothered with the anal aspect of correct punctuation, and thought it would make any diffrence then i would.
think i'll stick to talking about the series with people in the know and not armchair enthusiasts that cant grasp the concept of critisism, and take it as an attack.

[Robinho]

in respose to your original question, yes the BTCC is getting better. it went through some dark days after thesuper touring days, but without the regs changes and lean year there may have not been a series at all. this years grid is arguably the largest and most competitive for many years, and so far, i think the racing has been a little cleaner.

true, there has been some excessive contact in recent times, but i think thats as much a product of the cars as it is the drivers. to constantly compare to previous incarnations of the series is unfair and a little pointless, its not the same series by any means. the 80's (i'm thinking RS500's, Gravett, Rouse, Sytner, Cleland) whilst having some memorable moments, to me were a confusing mess of classes, of cars laps behind the race winners taking the overall championship but hardly being seen (on TV) such as Cleland's Astra, vs the M3's vs the RS500's.

the supertouring days were a fantastic array of machinery, manufacturers, drivers, by more importantly money, which after a few great years nearly killed the series. and i don't think the driving standards were the best back then, there were always a few willing to go the extra mile to gain a place.

whilst the media coverage will inevitableyfocus on the front, the rivalries and the scraps, BTCC is much deeper than that now, and i think most of teh casula viewers relise this and do not watch purely for the aspect of teh series which you despise, after all circuit attendence is up again, and as you say, you get a much deeper experience at the track, see the racing down the field, meet the drivers, the teams etc.

sure swome people will feel the need to defend the series that in this incarnation, they love. and rightly so, for many of the members and viewers, they will not remember the previous versions of the series, but can compare to other forms of racing available now, which is probably as valid, if not more so, than looking back through rose tinted glasses at previous times. there must have been rubbish races, bad drivers and avoidable accidents before its just you don't rermember them as they were not important to you, unlike the quality racing.

i've lost count of the times i've watched back motorsport memory versions of previous season and forgotten most of what had happened, save for a few exceptional parts - as a result some of the seasons appear quite boring now not in real time, whilst at the time i can tell you i was engrossed, and probably would have defended the series to its detractors at that time

[GRAVETT]

Excellent post robinho, this is the kind of informed reply that makes for healthy discussion. I do agree when it comes to the multi class part of the old school BTCC, that is was at times confussed and messy, we saw that again a few years back with the production class. My heart will always lay with the mighty days back in the 80's and early 90's, as i still firmly belive that it was more of a purists formula back then, but hey thats just my opinion.
i don't think that series will change or move away from it has become and what i dislike but I would like to see alot less emphasis put on bad driving from the media, I'm sure you all agree that ITV inparticular focuses on and over praises some of these manouvers, which can only be bad for racing in general.
so i'll accept that its part of the series and ignore it, and just be happy we do have ( in my opinion ) some proper racing from the privateer teams.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I'd agree that the BTCC is returning to strength after a difficult few years and the introduction of high-quality privateers like Pinkney and Jordan has played a huge part. Credit must go to Alan Gow - He identified the need to attract new independant teams, and has managed to do so successfully.

One thing I'd disagree with you on Gravett, is that I think many of the front-running drivers (Giovanardi, Plato, Turner, Turkington...etc) are of a very high-standard. I'd also say that the amount of un-necessary contact seems to have been reduced this season.

[GRAVETT]

I do agree that the contact issue has been reduced this year, and not all drivers in at the front fall under my opinion of being sub standard, i think Turner could very well become a star driver, but no will ever convince me that Plato deserves the praise he gets, but remember people its only my opinion ! ;)

[tyreman2]

i was a die hard btcc fan, then things changed i felt the driver skill vanished the teams vanished and the whole event was poorly managed so i didnt bother much with the btcc. that was until last year i attended a few events as i have this year and was suitible impressed with what i found. ok i still am not impressed with anything at the front of the grid but go mid field and the rear of the field and there are some of the most passionate racing drivers ive seen in a national championship for a long long time.
people like - martyn bell, dave pinkney etc are a fantastic advert for british motorsport and i hope they can get themselves up the front end and become the faces of the btcc.
thanks to all these guys and the teams for putting my faith back into the btcc. it reminds me of the good old days of the late 80's early 90's again.

I have to say i disagree with your comments.Firstly I believe the quality of the front runners is as good as ever,I admit that a 2.0ltr car that weigh's 1100+ Kgs is never going to be spectacular,but these guys have to be really on it to get the best out of their underpowered chariots,with these cars it's all about keeping the momentum going,secondly I think you are doing Mr Pinkney a disservice to put him in the same category as Bell.Dave is one of a group of experienced drivers,Hughes,and Stockton included,who on a good day can challenge for top 10 places along with the new faces such as Jackson,Jones Murray and Allison who will all visit the podium before the season ends.Whereas the Bells Georges ,Pockletons et al will never get on the required pace.I don't believe that these drivers are a fantastic advert for the championship.and quite frankly I could do without them.Having said that I admit that the Great British attitude of "It's the taking part that counts" will always guarantee a good deal of support for these no-hopers.I am sorry but I just don't get it. Don't get me wrong if you like racing and have got the money I say Go For It! but not in the UK's premier championship

[SEATFreak]

I think you are doing Mr Pinkney a disservice to put him in the same category as Bell.Dave is one of a group of experienced drivers,Hughes,and Stockton included,who on a good day can challenge for top 10 places along with the new faces such as Jackson,Jones Murray and Allison who will all visit the podium before the season ends.

Dave has been near to the top 10 in every race. In fact in Race 2 at Thruxton he did break into the top 10 at 10th.

Of the names mentioned only one has not been in the top 10 of the races he has finished - Allison's two 11ths in Race
1 at Rockingham and Race 3 at Thruxton.

But your spot on about Bell. I cannot say that although he has been around the 12th position most times his places are every time ahead of better drivers. His 13th in Race 1 at Thruxton was better than Pinkney's 15th. But that was probably due to issues as it was in Race 3 when Turks trailed in behind Bell.

[wedge]

Admittedly I have great enthusiasm for BTCC now since the Super Touring days. Regardless of politics and regulation changes and what not, IMHO, I'd say the growing interest has been down to:

1. TC purists prefer 4-door saloons

2. BMW - racing purists love RWD

3. Larger depth of talent

[SEATFreak]

4. Spectators like myself just enjoy the much improved experience of being at a motorsport meeting. Seeing the stars and their racing cars that you only see in magazines and on TV. And of course the family friendly atmosphere.

I class myself a spectator because what I know can be put on a bollock of an ameoba but I am not aware of that at Croft. I like being a spectator because to spectators it is more about the racing than the technical side because when your watching from the bankings all you see is the cars racing. You don't see and think of what lies underneath the bonnet.

[MBailey06]

Of the names mentioned only one has not been in the top 10 of the races he has finished - Allison's two 11ths in Race
1 at Rockingham and Race 3 at Thruxton.

Well if thats true, then how come Allison has 13pts in the season so far? I think that means he has finished in the points doesn't it?

[MBailey06]

[quote="SEATFreak"]Of the names mentioned only one has not been in the top 10 of the races he has finished - Allison's two 11ths in Race
1 at Rockingham and Race 3 at Thruxton.QUOTE]

How is that possible when Allison has 13pts this season? I think that means he has scored points don't you?

[SEATFreak]

How is that possible when Allison has 13pts this season? I think that means he has scored points don't you?

And your right. Three collected at Brands Hatch, six at Rockingham and four at Thruxton.

But I had thought only slightly incorrectly that of the five drivers tyreman2 mentioned who he put Dave Pinkney in the same group as (Mat Jackson, Jason Hughes, Matt Allison, Adam Jones and Eoin Murray) only Allison has seen finishes outside of the top 10 when he did it on two ocassions - Race 1 at Rockingham and Race 3 at Thruxton. Other than those two races they have all finished races in the points.

I stand corrected. I overlooked Allison's 12th in Round 1.

I also overlooked Jason Hughes' three 12th places - in Race 3 at Brands Hatch, Race 1 at Rockingham and Race 1 at Thruxton.

[CroftPilgrim]

I'm not sure I can entriely see Gravett's point. There has always been close contact and panel bashing in the BTCC. I believe one of BTCC's greats Steve Soper was not averse to punting people off if needs be was he? The only reason it started to disappear in the Super Touring days was not because of better standards, but because the cars became so dependant on aerodynamimcs that you didn't get the close racing we are now seeing.

Also remember that Jason Plato and Matt Neal, two front runners implicitly criticised in Gravett's post, are veterans from those super touring days.

I, like most people, watch the btcc for the action, the close racing, the agressive tactics and the occasional contact. If I just wanted to watch a skilled driver drive around a circuit I might as well just watch qualifying on the Saturday then go home, or watch F1 (boring, boring, boring).

[Iain]

I haven't seen Plato drive as well as he is this year for a long time. He's being really intelligent and not getting mixed up in any scrapes like previous years, just bagging points when he's unable to go for the win. :up:

[GRAVETT]

Croft pilgrim, you seem to think I liked the super touring days ! Those were the very worst times as for your reasons as to why you watch the btcc if its for the agressive tactics and contact do you also slow down on the motorway to gawp at a crash ( sorry guys but the facination of seein an accident is damn sick, if you have experinced one or been in one, on or off the track you would think diffrently). Iain i totally agree with you. for the first time I can remember I'm seeing Plato drive with a brain, intelligent racing and keeping out of petty arguments. I fear he will lapse back to how he has been the past years but i hope he doesnt.

[GRAVETT]

this thread has now got out of hand, i shall not be posting in this thread anymore. my final comments are. thankyou btcc for rekindling my passion for the series and i hope i can fully enjoy all aspects of the racing again soon.

[Alfa Fan]

GRAVETT put an end to the holier than thou attitude! Contact in BTCC racing and motorway pile-ups are two totally different things. I can't believe you even tried to compare them!

And to be condesending enough to presume that no-one other than you has been involved in an accident (not true). And even if it were how dare you state factually that people's opinions would change.

You're still completely deluded as you were when you started this exact same rant on the previous forum.

[tdb]

Alfa fan, It is not often that i agree with what you post!
But i agree with what you say in your above post!

GRAVETT, you are wrong! i enjoy the BTCC and enjoy the action scrapes and bumps! i worked at williams on Plato's laguna so i know the guy well, he has talent and can definately pedal!
Big attitude? yes! big nose? yes! but that has nothing to do with his ability behind the wheel!

but as for your crash gawper comment, i have been in a bad crash on the public highway and also in a near fatal crash on track! 6 weeks unconcious in a hospital and 9 months of recovery have not "made me think differently" about on track clashes! as it says on your ticket " motorsport is dangerous!"

racing door to door is what the btcc is all about and always has been!
i replaced enough parts in the super tourer days to know things haven't changed that much!

long live the door banging, punting, sideways action of the btcc!

[SEATFreak]

I am just enjoying not being the target for the hate for a change!! :up:

More of the same GRAVETT please. Your doing great, keep it up! :up: You are doing me one hell of a favour giving me some rare peace. Your also doing me a great favour giving me the rare chance to treat another how others treat me.

You are ill-informed GRAVETT. I was told twice this past week from two people many many miles apart never to assume. You have assumed that racing incidents and traffic incidents are the same. BTCC, like all touring cars, are fitted with a rollcage, recaro seats and harness, I think a fire extinguisher and nets (all of which I think must comply with regulations as the WTCC cars do to the FiA's regulations). Among probably other things.

A road car does not have such things. Their is safety devices fitted but they give no 100% gurantee to your safety.

So when your involved in an incident, as tdb made clear, terrible things are likely to happen.

As for the racing in the BTCC, imagine a BTCC where nobody made contact. How many overtakings would occour?

[CroftPilgrim]

Thank you Alfa, tdb and Seatfreak. You all at least, understood the point of my post :) .

Gravett - I didn't imply that the Super Touring days were what you referred to. Rather my point was that since we've got rid of those the close action is back, but also that it was there before the supertourers, and was just as good as it is now! I dont like seeing accidents or drivers deliberately punting each other off BUT I do like to see drivers taking half a chance and making it stick!

Mind you, I'm probably talking to myself, since you've given up on this thread.....

Iain - good point. Plato has been less impulsive this year and is showing his class.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

In answer to the original question


Yes. The BTCC is getting better. I reckon its as good as 1999 and better than anything since then apart form 2004. However it's still short of what it was from 94-98.

[SEATFreak]

Iain - good point. Plato has been less impulsive this year and is showing his class.

Some class!! Though in terms of results they are identical I just feel that if Jase' was a little more courageous without being reckless he would begin to have the upper hand over Fab. However I now know because it is FWD the Leon is not as nippy as the Vectra which maybe RWD. :?: Which may explain why the Vectra seems to have that little bit of pace over the Leon.

[tin-top fan]

SEATFreak- only the BMWs and the Lexuses are rear-wheel drive in the BTCC.........

[SEATFreak]

Why does the Vectra seem to have that bit of extra pace over the Leon - other than the fact the Leon isn't as aerodynamic as the Vectra?
It is just as much as I love they guy, at the moment I don't seem to see Jase being as good as everyone is saying. Once agin I feel the team are just not finding that bit extra that gives them the winning formula.

But having said that the Leon is still a good car for the team to have. Point of that is maybe it illustrates another reason why the BTCC of today is maybe better than some past eras. Maybe the cars are better. The new and old cars alike that are running this season seem to be running well.

[Northern Monkey]

Jason is having a very good season for the simple reason that he is driving with the championship in mind - and not simply going all out for victory in each race and sod the consequences. The last two meetings have been a perfect example as he has kept the car out of trouble in the opening races while carrying the extra weight as championship leader and has then made the most of the reverse grid to win the third race.

The key to a successful title bid is to consistently score points and that is what he is doing - it's no coincidence that the top four in the standings have all scored points in every race bar one, when Neal retired in race two at Rockingham.

[wedge]

Partly because of aero and because of the regulations the cars have to run stock components on the cars. Most Euro-hatches use torsion beam set up on the rears, I know the torsion beam on the Civic gave TD a bit of a headache.

Doesn't the Vectra run wishbone/multi-links on the rears?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The Vauxhall is quicker on the faster tracks like Rockingham and Thruxton. But I bet at Knockhill the SEAT will dominate. Donington and Snetterton will be Vauxhalls circuits and at Croft and Oulton they may be even. ;)

[Alfa Fan]

Its getting beyond a joke isn't it :rolleyes:

[reidy_fan]

one of the positives this year has been the amount of drivers from the support races that have came through and started to make their mark

Mr Gow has certainly turned the BTCC round perhaps he should do the support as well as apart from the clios the grids are in decline

[CroftPilgrim]

Jason is having a very good season for the simple reason that he is driving with the championship in mind - and not simply going all out for victory in each race and sod the consequences. The last two meetings have been a perfect example as he has kept the car out of trouble in the opening races while carrying the extra weight as championship leader and has then made the most of the reverse grid to win the third race.

The key to a successful title bid is to consistently score points and that is what he is doing - it's no coincidence that the top four in the standings have all scored points in every race bar one, when Neal retired in race two at Rockingham.

Absolutley correct MG-Fan. I couldn't have put it better myself! :)

[ATF]

In response to the original question: ;)

I think the BTCC is getting better but it has taken some time to get here. It was quite boring seeing 2 Astras as the only title challengers 4 years running and the number of cars in 2005 was a bit of a bad year when the series was on the up.

This season arguably seems to be the best since 2001 in terms of variety, cars, teams and drivers. Yet after 9 races, 2 drivers have all but 1 between them - a bit of a variety would be better for the championship. It may just be the way the season has started and everything might change from now on but on the other hand, look at the WRC...

Back in the 90s, even early 00s and you couldn't pick a winner...now it's Loeb or Gronholm and it's the same kind of scenario with the BTCC - for most of last year it was either Neal or Plato and I can see it being the same with Gio/Plato in 2007. Drivers like Turkington, Chilton and Shedden have the ability on occasion, but I'd like to see a bit more consistency. I'd love to see the BTCC have more than a 2-way title fight and that would make it even better.

[thompp]

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt


he he never a truer word said.

[SEATFreak]

This season arguably seems to be the best since 2001 in terms of variety, cars, teams and drivers. Yet after 9 races, 2 drivers have all but 1 between them - a bit of a variety would be better for the championship. It may just be the way the season has started and everything might change from now on but on the other hand, look at the WRC...

Back in the 90s, even early 00s and you couldn't pick a winner...now it's Loeb or Gronholm and it's the same kind of scenario with the BTCC - for most of last year it was either Neal or Plato and I can see it being the same with Gio/Plato in 2007. Drivers like Turkington, Chilton and Shedden have the ability on occasion, but I'd like to see a bit more consistency. I'd love to see the BTCC have more than a 2-way title fight and that would make it even better.

Totally agree. If it can do well long term in the WTCC I think the BMW 320si can be a great car in the BTCC too. After all in the first 4 races Mat Jackons looked good. It got Jackson, to add to 2nd in Rockingham and 3rd in Brands Hatch, two fastest laps - one of which the second fastest of the day. And at RAC the form of both cars have been good with poles and fast laps this season. The Civic also looks a good car. Even the older cars in the Toledo and Integra has performed well.

But by far the strongest cars have been the Leon and the Vectra. But it has only been Jason's Leon and Giovanardi's Vectra that have been the strongest. The wins have been hugely dominated by them with 4 wins apiece. Other than Neal's one win nobody else has yet achieved a win.

Variety is strong but not those who you can say have really excelled this season.