Rally Croatia 2022

[PLuto]

Yes, lot of issues were with broken rims which caused the punctures. And it was not about so much cutting than usual or lower tyre pressure like usual... Pirelli wet tyres are working completely different than Michelin ones. Also in mixed conditions Pirelli tyres are different than Michelin.

[seb_sh]

So what is the problem then. Is it really the tyres simply can't handle cuts? Genuine question. Seems a bit too easy to blame the tyres for everything.

[EstWRC]

There were total of 18 punctures in this event for Rally1 cars.

That’s too much IMO.

Breen was the only one who didn’t have, all the others did

[Rallyper]

So what is the problem then. Is it really the tyres simply can't handle cuts? Genuine question. Seems a bit too easy to blame the tyres for everything.

Maybe the tyres can´t handle drivers misusing them. If construction limits says one thing and the user wants it to work out of the construction limits the outcome can only be failure. That´s a common rule for any mechanical gizmos.

[dimviii]

They can explain all they want.....Rally cars have been cutting on Tarmac events for years, I don't recall so many issues.

i am pretty sure you still havent read the article.

The rain tire is always a difficult one because when it gets wet the drivers tend to go more off the road, and when they go more off the road they bring more s*** and then they expose more kerbs and more stones, and they make their own opportunities to get punctures,” he told DirtFish.

“It then drives you to say a wet tire should be stronger, but the way a wet tire picks up its grip is by being softer and if you make it stronger it doesn’t naturally get softer.

“We know that it works quite well as a wet tire when you’re on Tarmac. When you’re on a road that’s so narrow that we have here and you’re driven to go off the road so much… I mean when you see the stages on TV now they look more like gravel stages than Tarmac stages, so it’s difficult to say there’s a big problem when you’re driving a Tarmac car on a gravel stage basically.

more easy to understand...
a wet tyre doesnt have the same carcass as the dry tarmac tyres.
If you try to make a wet tyre with same carcass as a dry tarmac tyre,you will have the same durable tyre,but it will be almost undrivable at wet conditions.You are going to listen from drivers that is unpredictable etc.

wet tyre is not only the cuts and softer rubber.Needs to have a softer carcass so it will be more predictable at wet conditions where the grip changes very easy,and tyre has to ''warn'' the driver when grip is going to break.

[dimviii]

So what is the problem then. Is it really the tyres simply can't handle cuts? Genuine question. Seems a bit too easy to blame the tyres for everything.

yes a wet tyre is not the same structure as a dry tyre, so you can not cut as in other tarmac rallies with dry tyres.
always wet tyres were like that.

[dimviii]

There were total of 18 punctures in this event for Rally1 cars.

That’s too much IMO.

Breen was the only one who didn’t have, all the others did

how many of them were with broken rims? We know from article that first day all 8 punctures were with broken rims.

[dimviii]

Yes, lot of issues were with broken rims which caused the punctures. And it was not about so much cutting than usual or lower tyre pressure like usual... Pirelli wet tyres are working completely different than Michelin ones. Also in mixed conditions Pirelli tyres are different than Michelin.

we have to think also that drivers havent used to drive these wet tyres.

[TypeR]

https://www.upload.ee/image/14091662/received_2968058416817860.jpeg

[seb_sh]

If the tyre carcass is softer can the jumps also be a factor? Croatia has a lot of jumps for a tarmac rally.

[becher]

Remember the big amount of punctures in Monza 2020 with Michelin? No one gave a shit. Yet a month or two later at the 2021 Monte everybody jumped on Pirelli when a similar amount of punctures happened. Sometimes people are looking to hard for a scapegoat and Pirelli is an easy target as the majority of motorsport fans (let alone the common public) still don't understand the Pirelli-F1 situation and think Pirelli is just bad.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

On commentary they kept saying that the tyre had been 'knocked off the rim' as the reason for the punctures.

If true, the rim would get damaged by driving on in this state and then look broken by the end of the stage..

But it had not broken first and caused the puncture.

[AndyRAC]

i am pretty sure you still haven't read the article.



Give your head a wobble; I have read it.

Cutting has gone on for years on Tarmac events (dry & wet) - I can't recall an event with so many punctures/failures. I even recall drivers at stage end with cracked rims, and tyres still intact. There is an issue with lighter, less robust rims, and tyres which are unable to handle hits....

[dimviii]

Give your head a wobble; I have read it.

you have read it,but you keep saying that is pirellis fault that first day we had 8 cracked rims out of 8 punctures .
while we have explain the structure of a wet tyre
and while we know that drivers havent got experience driving with wet tyre at almost gravel rally.
i think that you must give your head a wobble man.

[Devillersvideo]

The road condition this weekend is like a muddy belgian rally in november :laugh:
It was great to see the Rally1 car on tarmac like this!

https://youtu.be/Una9V2j310A

2274

[Florin]

Some Photos:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.409558114505718&type=3

[Kaps]

Can someone confirm this please?

In power stage, even though 1st five drivers get the points 5-4-3-2-1, for manu points, only first 5 registered cars get the points, so thus Greensmith got the final point for Ford, even though he finished Power Stage in 7th, but 5th of the manu-registered cars.
Am I correct here? Cos no other way to explain that extra point for Ford at Rally Croatia!

[wyler]

Can someone confirm this please?

In power stage, even though 1st five drivers get the points 5-4-3-2-1, for manu points, only first 5 registered cars get the points, so thus Greensmith got the final point for Ford, even though he finished Power Stage in 7th, but 5th of the manu-registered cars.
Am I correct here? Cos no other way to explain that extra point for Ford at Rally Croatia!

if i remember correctly yes, manu and drivers ps point are different.

[WRCStan]

Can someone confirm this please?

In power stage, even though 1st five drivers get the points 5-4-3-2-1, for manu points, only first 5 registered cars get the points, so thus Greensmith got the final point for Ford, even though he finished Power Stage in 7th, but 5th of the manu-registered cars.
Am I correct here? Cos no other way to explain that extra point for Ford at Rally Croatia!

Lindholm (5th) and Lefebvre (6th), both in Rally2 cars, are not entered into WRC Manufacturer's championship which is only for Rally1 cars.

[becher]

https://youtu.be/AP9QlIyWN6k

M Sport Roadbook.

Is that Adamo at around 11 minutes?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Amazing speed in the conditions !!
These drivers are incredible. This is a must watch video:

https://youtu.be/FmsPBG3FgNU

[WRCStan]

https://youtu.be/AP9QlIyWN6k

M Sport Roadbook.

Is that Adamo at around 11 minutes?

In the Hyundai clobber? No.

[WRCStan]

Amazing speed in the conditions !!
These drivers are incredible. This is a must watch video:

https://youtu.be/FmsPBG3FgNU

Einstein talks of frames of reference - this explains why Gus called the spectators insane.

[EstWRC]

I wonder if the public also saw the car there https://twitter.com/sportmotorescom/status/1520504513274261504?s=21&t=Drf_gJfdiw-b3BNL5JQrng

[tommeke_B]

Finally found the time to post a few photos here. Amazing event, like last year, but with more spectators. The rain and fog made it difficult on friday, for everyone.

https://scontent.fbru4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/278606173_7808374352507716_4589851154414355124_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=Uj0sd4KvQ6UAX9NnX_s&_nc_ht=scontent.fbru4-1.fna&oh=00_AT9gYU3pYMwwZQ-hFW23ZauzFn-5FPvv9SN1w8vFekfjww&oe=627388A1

https://scontent.fbru4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/278806800_7808374309174387_6385353313353414767_n.j pg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=orVGOZdiLVwAX9i2GbI&_nc_ht=scontent.fbru4-1.fna&oh=00_AT_Ulll6HCpqjcQEpiIAXHs7SrBTKEXnd8pvaVL3bmnC 9w&oe=6273D9CB

https://scontent.fbru4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/278623724_7808374239174394_3179805109437824281_n.j pg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=AfhHfWkd2t8AX9Uirrt&_nc_ht=scontent.fbru4-1.fna&oh=00_AT9G05PILR6J8gL810VO7clZpZRNhK3ZPj5RY5r-c8diGg&oe=6272D972

https://scontent.fbru4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/278779197_7808374842507667_6738620466623933647_n.j pg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=7RbLKaF6LqcAX-DYCu9&_nc_ht=scontent.fbru4-1.fna&oh=00_AT-PHKrkpaD6XTK7DYNvS9xVnoT_hoKjQbVGEScuQ34HnA&oe=62726639

https://scontent.fbru4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/278584432_7808373789174439_5051726144757772490_n.j pg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=-MMzAB7hHBAAX_FRz8l&_nc_ht=scontent.fbru4-1.fna&oh=00_AT_q7DGYcJo8w_1htbHLuiAe72uEbFzUxtwJnPlA--YhIw&oe=6273AAF5

A few more: https://www.facebook.com/media/set?vanity=rallyimage&set=a.7808403492504802

[wyler]

Amazing speed in the conditions !!
These drivers are incredible. This is a must watch video:

https://youtu.be/FmsPBG3FgNU

tbh, a bit annoyed by this hype to speed up videos...

[AnttiL]

Or just super high fps?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

tbh, a bit annoyed by this hype to speed up videos...

What indicates its sped up - listen to the sound, its natural... look at the fans movements and the flags and leaves, all normal.

[the sniper]

tbh, a bit annoyed by this hype to speed up videos...

Comes with 60fps uploads on YT, for me anyway. I don't think it's intentional. Still unfortunate though.

[dimviii]

What indicates its sped up - listen to the sound, its natural... look at the fans movements and the flags and leaves, all normal.

no its not natural,everything is speed up.

[WRCStan]

Maybe the narrow field of view and camera movement creates that illusion? Looks fine to me.

[wyler]

What indicates its sped up - listen to the sound, its natural... look at the fans movements and the flags and leaves, all normal.

to me, looks like the classic 10/15% cranking up to achieve this "incredible" speed feeling.
high fps helps, still to me -as a video editor- something looks odd, but i could be wrong!

on the foliage and flags and people: play it at 0.75% speed of yt (that is like 2x slowing than the speeding up -i guess-) and see if it looks strange...car feels slow, but anything else looks better! (take as reference the guy with camera at 0:07 revolving at sound speed without flinch many times in the video...)

still a good video though, that works amazing with a little magic! : )

[the sniper]

It's mainly noticeable in the movement of people for me, if you look at them, because you can detect what appears unnatural in something so familiar.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The cars speed on Bunnings video looks less extreme, so it seems the other was sped up...


https://youtu.be/SjXb0z2XWuI

[J-Records]

Video was not speed up. Most places which we recorded car drive with maximum speed, the combination of several such shots gives such an impression.

[dimviii]

Video was not speed up. Most places which we recorded car drive with maximum speed, the combination of several such shots gives such an impression.

man what we see from youtube is speed up.Dont know if its purpose from the uploader,or a glitch when you upload at youtube.But its speed up 100% .Even the movement of people/spectators is not normal.
By the way,thanks for your effort and always some of the besgt videos we have watch.

[AnttiL]

man what we see from youtube is speed up.Dont know if its purpose from the uploader,or a glitch when you upload at youtube.But its speed up 100% .Even the movement of people/spectators is not normal.
By the way,thanks for your effort and always some of the besgt videos we have watch.

So you're not even believing the video maker?

To me it doesn't look like sped up, just high fps, it has the same effect since our eyes are not used to that. People moving, broken anti-cut boulder falling down, doesn't look like it's sped up.

[wyler]

So you're not even believing the video maker?

To me it doesn't look like sped up, just high fps, it has the same effect since our eyes are not used to that. People moving, broken anti-cut boulder falling down, doesn't look like it's sped up.

man, if people can speed up a video to have a better result, they can also deny having done it...

bunning's one is hi-fps too, still way different. (50 to 60 doesn't justify that)

to me, if not all, it's still 10% magic on some shots, that is not even needed 'cause the video is already good.

anyway, i think everyone can edit video as they please, as viewers can like it or not, let's talk about other kind of speed! : )

[the sniper]

bunning's one is hi-fps too, still way different. (50 to 60 doesn't justify that)

I don't agree, on You Tube there is a fairly discernible difference even between 50 and 60 fps uploads, 50fps looks more accurate but even still appears a little deceptive. We're talking only You Tube here, not in general. Whatever goes on in YT processing with 60fps videos seems to cause the apparent issue.

[dimviii]

So you're not even believing the video maker?
i believe my eyes Antti.


To me it doesn't look like sped up, just high fps, it has the same effect since our eyes are not used to that. People moving, broken anti-cut boulder falling down, doesn't look like it's sped up.

to me it looks speed up. I dont care if it is from high fps or anything else.What i see is not at normal speed.
The moving of people is not normal,they are abnormally fast when they turn around to watch the car,when they stand up etc. leafs flying abnormally too.Gear changes faster,antilag sound faster etc.
There are videos that they are at normal speed,but last years they tent to be the minority.
Pitty because this speed up ruin all the work.

[J-Records]

Opinions that the movie is speed up are simply ridiculous. I've seen such opinions on other videos in the past.
Out of curiosity, I opened up some raw camera shots today and I did not see difference in speed to what you can see on youtube.

The opinions that the movies on youtube are speed up are as real as the fact that the sun goes around the earth.

Greetings to everyone and I am not taking part in further discussions.

[Kenneth]

Maybe the narrow field of view and camera movement creates that illusion? Looks fine to me.

Yes, this is definitely the correct answer.

[the sniper]

If it were field of view, wouldn't it be noticeable on standard 1080p uploads too? For me at least, it's exclusive to 60fps uploads on You Tube. Could this be a hardware issue on some viewers end? I'm not sure what it'd be though, as I've noticed exactly the same thing watching on a phone, high spec and low spec computers...

[flat_right]

I also don't think it was sped up, it's just that with higher frame rate, we see less of the blur in motion with the fast-moving subjects than we normally expect. Back in the day, when the video was "invented", it was determined that 24fps to be the minimum speed needed to capture video while still maintaining realistic motion. For many decades, it was the standard and our brains have gotten very used with it. But now, when basically any phone can shoot 60+ pfs, when we watch the videos, then we see 60 frames every second and our brain senses this motion as incredibly fluid and smooth, which is why videos in 60fps look so weird and surreal, especially when we see fast moving objects like rally cars. This is actually the same reason why movies are still in 24 fps. Studios probably record movies 4k 120 pfs, but what we see in the cinema is 24 fps as anything higher feels unnatural and bizarre for us. So to sum up... it's the brain.

[WRCStan]

I love how much coverage this is getting.

There's an identical pass on each video, needs a skilled editor to analyse and settle this:
Bunnings https://youtu.be/SjXb0z2XWuI?t=23
J-Records https://youtu.be/FmsPBG3FgNU?t=15

[the sniper]

So to sum up... it's the brain.

A hardware issue then, kind of... ;) :D

[wyler]

I also don't think it was sped up, it's just that with higher frame rate, we see less of the blur in motion with the fast-moving subjects than we normally expect. Back in the day, when the video was "invented", it was determined that 24fps to be the minimum speed needed to capture video while still maintaining realistic motion. For many decades, it was the standard and our brains have gotten very used with it. But now, when basically any phone can shoot 60+ pfs, when we watch the videos, then we see 60 frames every second and our brain senses this motion as incredibly fluid and smooth, which is why videos in 60fps look so weird and surreal, especially when we see fast moving objects like rally cars. This is actually the same reason why movies are still in 24 fps. Studios probably record movies 4k 120 pfs, but what we see in the cinema is 24 fps as anything higher feels unnatural and bizarre for us. So to sum up... it's the brain.

technically the limit of motion is 10/12 fps. classic animation (like disney) is made "on 2" so 2 frames per drawing, so 12 fps. silent cinema (hands cranked), was anywhere between 16 to 24 depending on the operator, super 8 was 16/18, and so on...

on cinema: directors like peter jackson or james cameron shoot at 48/60. american standard cinema is 24, europe is 25 as for tv, because of ...electricity. fps are related to the Hz frequency of ac. then it's true that cinema people prefer motion blur over fluidity so is very rare to have overcranked (more than 24/25 fps) movies.

[Kenneth]

I love how much coverage this is getting.

There's an identical pass on each video, needs a skilled editor to analyse and settle this:
Bunnings https://youtu.be/SjXb0z2XWuI?t=23
J-Records https://youtu.be/FmsPBG3FgNU?t=15

I'm not skilled editor but I study film. Imo the biggest and main difference is the lens. Bunnings video have zoom lens that is unzooming as car is passing, also the camera is moving. J-Records have static lens (cannot tell exactly what type of lens but looks really good to show the speed), also camera is almost static.

Imo the video is not speed up, but J-Record is really good at capturing the speed.

[DoN_cz]

Or one could pick a longish section from the video and measure how long it takes for car to reach from point A to point B. Then do the same with onboard and compare.

[SubaruNorway]

I know you can mess it up if you mix clips with 24fps and 25 fps for example if you added some gopro clips at 25 to a 24fps project but it would be so little you can't tell. 60fps can look faster because you will see shaking easier on a hand held camera also. Just check that you always have the same FPS on all your cameras to avoid any issues like matching up a face cam to onboard even if the editing software will do frame blending it won't always match up. I use 25fps for reference.

[Gams]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M9ATfMZ1Sc