WTCC Weight Penalty

[SEATFreak]

On Touringcartimes.com on 10 May it was reported that BMW boss Mario Thiessen wants more stable rules, it sems, regarding the weight penalties.

For Zandvoort Alfa, Chevy and SEAT got 1115kg of ballast. A reduction of 25kg from the 1140kg. However whereas the 06' spec 320si's (E90) and 320i's (E46) shed 30kg (two 15kg's) down to 1110kg the 07' spec 320si's only saw a recuction 0f 15kg which still made them much heavier than the Leon's, Lacetti's and 156's. A whole 10kg heavier at 1125kg.

Forgive me for being a bit cynical but though Mario does have point that the WTCC ought to let rules settle before we change them what is Mario Thiessen essentally saying in his statement on touringcartimes.com? I don't think it is that somehow.

ballast change article:
http://www.touringcartimes.com/news.php?id=1092

BMW boss statement article:
http://www.touringcartimes.com/news.php?id=1172

[bt52b]

For Zandvoort Alfa, Chevy and SEAT got 1115kg of ballast.



Would be a miracle to get off the grid with 1115kg of ballast :eek:

[SEATFreak]

This is what upsets me deeply. :( Out of everything that I said why pick up on the one little mistake I may have made? Does nothing else matter? I am with great kindness and respect here requesting you please not to do it anymore. So PLEASE, if you have respect for me, don't throw it back. I simply couldn't take it.

However, I am not angry at all. You are completely wrong. If you looked at the link to the weight penalty article you will see I am spot on. For both SEAT, Alfa and Chevrolet it does say "1140kg - 25kg = 1115kg". So 1115kg must be what they raced with at Zandvoort.

If anyone has made a mistake it must be the site.

What does anyone make of what Mario Thiessen said? It sounds fair but fact is they didn't do well at all there. 24pts in total for BMW compared to the 53pts in Brazil reflects that to a degree.

[Alfa Fan]

SEATFreak, the only person who is "completely wrong" here is you! The FWD cars are not carrying 1115KG of ballast! That is the base weight of the car.

[racer69]

What happened to the days when a set of regulations were written and it was up to manufacturers to build a competitive car.... all this ballast and so on just encourages mediocrity, if you do a bad job you get rewarded by either getting a rule break to speed up, or your competition gets slowed down!

I read elsewhere that the Seat's & Alfa's run at a different base weight to the Chevy's, which in itself is a joke because they are all FWD cars.....

[SEATFreak]

What happened to the days when a set of regulations were written and it was up to manufacturers to build a competitive car.... all this ballast and so on just encourages mediocrity, if you do a bad job you get rewarded by either getting a rule break to speed up, or your competition gets slowed down!

OK, we may have veered a little from the intended point, but as it is not me doing it this time it is apparently OK.

I do see your point though. Why has BMW suffered more it seems than SEAT or Alfa? Regardless of whether it is base weight or ballast we are taling about, fact is the BMW carries much more than the others.

[Dave B]

Would be a miracle to get off the grid with 1115kg of ballast :eek:
That sounds like Nick the Flick's suggestion for the BTCC (http://btccinfo.motorsportforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=264439&postcount=29) ;) :p

[SEATFreak]

I read elsewhere that the Seat's & Alfa's run at a different base weight to the Chevy's, which in itself is a joke because they are all FWD cars.....

Where did you read it and how much weight do the Lacetti's run compared to the Leon's and 156's?

It must be different to the weights mentioned on touringcartimes.com.

Also, what does it matter if a car is FWD or RWD? How does the wheel drive placement thingy affect the base weight? For instance would it make the car harder to drive if the car is driven from the rear?

The BMW's must have a bad wheel drive system for the baseweight it carries for Thiessen to complain about how slow the beemers are now. Answering my own question, that is what I think he was implying in his comment.

[martinbalmer]

This is what upsets me deeply. :(

Don't get upset... you just made a typo.. you meant to write base-weight didn't you ;)


Personally I think they should make ONE set of rules for the season and stick to them. It always seems as if they are fixing the results by keep adjusting the base-weights to bring everyone to the same level of competitiveness.

As for success ballast. In a real competitive championship it shouldn't be necessary.

[racer69]

Also, what does it matter if a car is FWD or RWD? How does the wheel drive placement thingy affect the base weight? For instance would it make the car harder to drive if the car is driven from the rear?

Rear wheel drive cars are generally quicker from a standing start & are kinder to their tyres, as both the front (steering) and rear (driving) wheels are doing the work. One disadvantage though is abit of drag in a straightline

Front wheel drive cars suffer as the front two wheels do all the work (steer & drive), the front tyre life is generally much shorter and the cars are slower away from a standing start. They are generally quicker in a straightline.

RWD cars carrying more weight to even some of it out is alright, but the problem is the constant rule changing throughout the season.

So far this year in the WTCC it seems all you have to do is have a whinge to get the rules changed....remeniscent of the Australian Touring Car scene in 1983/84 with our Group C touring cars, whoever complained loudest got the best performance handouts.....

[SEATFreak]

Facinating stuff. Thanks. :up: Now I know why perhaps the Leon is so apparently slow on the straight but strong in cornering. Maybe the Leon is a RWD. In fact I am sure it is. But the weight distribution on the Leon is 58%-42% front to rear. So it seems heavier on the front.

It is a little ridiculous that only the 07 spec E90's are made the heaviest so soon. Is their not rules in place for the governing body to adhere to that stops to many rule changes from being made? Once a set of rules is made I think after a certain date, a date determined by some board of some kind, that rule cannot be changed.

We have already seen one change in the baseweight before Curitiba, in the competition weight and the prize money for each positon achieved.

[Alfa Fan]

I'm really struggling not to think that SEATFreaks sole purpose here is to deliberatly misunderstand everything just to annoy everyone.

[Iain]

Facinating stuff. Thanks. :up: Now I know why perhaps the Leon is so apparently slow on the straight but strong in cornering. Maybe the Leon is a RWD. In fact I am sure it is. But the weight distribution on the Leon is 58%-42% front to rear. So it seems heavier on the front.

Oh, my, god! Call yourself a SEAT fan?!?!


http://seanmullen.net/images/headbang.gif

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I think it's comedy genius. :laugh:

I bit like that simple guy on Heartbeat called David

[tin-top fan]

Facinating stuff. Thanks. :up: Now I know why perhaps the Leon is so apparently slow on the straight but strong in cornering. Maybe the Leon is a RWD. In fact I am sure it is. But the weight distribution on the Leon is 58%-42% front to rear. So it seems heavier on the front.

It is a little ridiculous that only the 07 spec E90's are made the heaviest so soon. Is their not rules in place for the governing body to adhere to that stops to many rule changes from being made? Once a set of rules is made I think after a certain date, a date determined by some board of some kind, that rule cannot be changed.

We have already seen one change in the baseweight before Curitiba, in the competition weight and the prize money for each positon achieved.

come on SEATFreak. The leon is front-wheel drive. So are all the other cars in the wtcc apart from the BMW- this is why the BMW has a higher base weight! The reason due to the slowness of the Seat in a straight line is it's shape. Saloon cars and coupes are more aerodynamic than hatchbacks.

[SEATFreak]

The leon is front-wheel drive. So are all the other cars in the wtcc apart from the BMW- this is why the BMW has a higher base weight. The reason due to the slowness of the Seat in a straight line is it's shape. Saloon cars and coupes are more aerodynamic than hatchbacks.

So, would you say then by virtue of it's design as well as the ability for Schnitzer and RBM to produce a race winning car, the 320si has earned it's right to be a top car. Because it is more aerodynamic than the 156 or the Leon? Or does the design not come into it?

[tin-top fan]

It's a hard one to say really. I personally don't think that it should just be saloon cars that get to the front of the grid. It's not just about pure speed remember though. When the BTCC went to rockingham for example, the Leons seemed to be winning it through the twister stuff in the infield, but VXR has it covered on the banking. It has to be expected though that some tracks suit some cars more than other. What I don't agree with is adding weight to cars just to make sure they don't run away with the championship- if BMW are the best, then why shouldn't they walk the championship?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

if BMW are the best, then why shouldn't they walk the championship?

I blame the communists

[bt52b]

It's a hard one to say really. I personally don't think that it should just be saloon cars that get to the front of the grid. It's not just about pure speed remember though. When the BTCC went to rockingham for example, the Leons seemed to be winning it through the twister stuff in the infield, but VXR has it covered on the banking. It has to be expected though that some tracks suit some cars more than other. What I don't agree with is adding weight to cars just to make sure they don't run away with the championship- if BMW are the best, then why shouldn't they walk the championship?

Isn't that what the sucess ballast is supposed to deal with?

[BDunnell]

Here's a radical suggestion. How about having a touring car championship in which the best and fastest car is the most successful, without recourse to penalties?

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Yes, Chevy and Alfa have lower base weight than the SEAT, in Chevrolet's case it's because they're narrower than the others. I'm sure Alfa have an equally ridicolous claim :)