Silly Season 2022

[EstWRC]

Hyundai confirming Sordo and Solberg http://motorsport.hyundai.com/crews-confirmed/

[wwbroe]

Nice way to announce it with this video:)
I mean the start of Breen with M-sport

[Allez Andruet]

Hyundai confirming Sordo and Solberg http://motorsport.hyundai.com/crews-confirmed/

After his amazing 2021 season, there really was no other option than Solberg.

[wwbroe]

So Adamo is engaging Oliver after all, i still think it is too early in his career but time will tell.

[mknight]

Good news for MSport since they udoubtedly get one of the 3? best drivers still available.

A big risk for Breen since he is in a "make or break" position and it all rests on MSports ability to have a competetive car. But if Adamo was dead set on just a few rounds it was the only option.

Small nitpick is that Breen actually contested almost full 2017 season only missing one round in Mexico and doing Monte in 2016 car.

As to Wilson claiming Breen can fight for title, I'd say it depends on the calendar as well. Some rallies like Monte, Portugal or Sardinia he has close to no experience and we have seen it matters a lot. He could fight for wins om some rallies if the car is up to it.

Also a small note about Wilsons comment about fast rallies showing a driver can win anywhere... look at Østberg or Gryazin (as wellas Lappi so far).

-----

Hyundai announcing lineup in a tweet immediatelly seems like typical knee-jerk Adamo reaction. Especially since they now have Suninen to test in next rallies.
So I doubt that lineup is 100% confirmed.

[meh]

A big risk for Breen since he is in a "make or break" position and it all rests on MSports ability to have a competetive car. But if Adamo was dead set on just a few rounds it was the only option.

We don't know how new cars will perform. It's the same risk for every team and driver at the moment.


awesome news and cool first day at work video :D
Finally some team changes and a bit excitement to WRC!

As this one (additionally for Suninen) is probably the only team change for this silly season, most of the excitement relays on new cars.

[mknight]

We don't know how new cars will perform. It's the same risk for every team and driver at the moment.


It's never the same risk:

- Team budget (Toyota>Hyundai>MSport ?)
- Engineering skills (?)/ Recent car record (Toyota>Hyundai>MSport)
- Driver testing and feedback skills (Evans, Rovanpera, Hanninen, Ogier vs Tanak, Neuville, Sordo, Solberg vs Breen, Fourmaux, Greensmith, Matt Wilson)
- Timeline (seemingly MSport>Toyota>Hyundai)

[AnttiL]

Small nitpick is that Breen actually contested almost full 2017 season only missing one round in Mexico and doing Monte in 2016 car.

Skipped Spain as well. In 2018 he skipped also two rallies (Mexico, Corsica) because of Loeb.

[Allez Andruet]

No offence, but who's the last factory driver (excl. so-called pay drivers) with as weak CV as Oliver? Simon Jean-Joseph in 1999?

[ouvreur]

It's never the same risk:

- Team budget (Toyota>Hyundai>MSport ?)
- Engineering skills (?)/ Recent car record (Toyota>Hyundai>MSport)
- Driver testing and feedback skills (Evans, Rovanpera, Hanninen, Ogier vs Tanak, Neuville, Sordo, Solberg vs Breen, Fourmaux, Greensmith, Matt Wilson)
- Timeline (seemingly MSport>Toyota>Hyundai)

The biggest variable in this, is a team's ability to adapt to a major regulation change. It doesn't matter how much money you've got, or how much you've won before, or how clever your people are, if they're working in the wrong direction. C3 WRC, anyone?

In this regard, M-Sport were able to steal a march on everyone in 2017, despite enduring a 2016 season very nearly as bad (Ott Tanak's pace in the Dmack car aside) as it has been for them in 2021. That said, their lead development driver for the '17 car was Tanak - it seems unlikely that they have had a driver of equivalent pedigree involved in the Puma, unless it's the best-kept secret in motorsport history...

It can only be this possibility that Craig Breen is banking on.

[AnttiL]

No offence, but who's the last factory driver (excl. so-called pay drivers) with as weak CV as Oliver? Simon Jean-Joseph in 1999?

Good call, but it’s always difficult to know who’s a pay driver and who is not.

[mknight]

The biggest variable in this, is a team's ability to adapt to a major regulation change. It doesn't matter how much money you've got, or how much you've won before, or how clever your people are, if they're working in the wrong direction. C3 WRC, anyone?

In this regard, M-Sport were able to steal a march on everyone in 2017, despite enduring a 2016 season very nearly as bad (Ott Tanak's pace in the Dmack car aside) as it has been for them in 2021. That said, their lead development driver for the '17 car was Tanak - it seems unlikely that they have had a driver of equivalent pedigree involved in the Puma, unless it's the best-kept secret in motorsport history...

It can only be this possibility that Craig Breen is banking on.

The thing is that MSport lineup with Breen, Fourmaux and Greensmith totally reminds me of Citroen 2017 lineup of Meeke, Breen, Lefevbre. Except it's even weaker. Meeke had 3 wins and Breen had 1 podium before 2017.

In other words, one good driver (but not one of the very best at the moment) and two weak ones. If the one driver doesn't deliver for whatever reason there is nobody to pickup. (and this further increases the pressure on the one driver)
Compare that with Toyota this year with all 3 drivers winning a rally often when one or both of the others have a bad day.

[denkimi]

Hyundai confirming Sordo and Solberg http://motorsport.hyundai.com/crews-confirmed/
Congratulations to toyota for winning the 2022 constructors world championship.

I always considered adamo kinda brutal and impulsive, but not stupid. I wonder if this was done above his head, i can't see this as being a decision by him.

[TypeR]

The thing is that MSport lineup with Breen, Fourmaux and Greensmith totally reminds me of Citroen 2017 lineup of Meeke, Breen, Lefevbre. Except it's even weaker. Meeke had 3 wins and Breen had 1 podium before 2017.

In other words, one good driver (but not one of the very best at the moment) and two weak ones. If the one driver doesn't deliver for whatever reason there is nobody to pickup. (and this further increases the pressure on the one driver)
Compare that with Toyota this year with all 3 drivers winning a rally often when one or both of the others have a bad day.
What should M-Sport do then?
Quit the series after not getting top3 driver..?
Championship wise M-Sport is more successful than Hyundai..
If Hyundai had been more reliable, then Tänak and Neuville would have gained a lot more points and manus and WDC title would have been easier to achieve.

Let's see what happens next season.. Nobody knows, maybe Wilson manages to get someone top driver for 2023 season.

[ouvreur]

The thing is that MSport lineup with Breen, Fourmaux and Greensmith totally reminds me of Citroen 2017 lineup of Meeke, Breen, Lefevbre. Except it's even weaker. Meeke had 3 wins and Breen had 1 podium before 2017.

In other words, one good driver (but not one of the very best at the moment) and two weak ones. If the one driver doesn't deliver for whatever reason there is nobody to pickup. (and this further increases the pressure on the one driver)
Compare that with Toyota this year with all 3 drivers winning a rally often when one or both of the others have a bad day.

As has already been asked, what can they do? Convince Ogier, Evans and Tanak to break their contracts and come back to them, or buy them out? Short of that, they won't be able to satisfy the 'one of the very best at the moment' criteria, and even if they did, I doubt Breen would be happy to see someone come in 'above' him in the pecking order. A driver lineup like Toyota's or Hyundai's costs significantly more than M-Sport have to offer.

Without Greensmith, there's no team. Fourmaux is being billed as a superstar in the making (although we saw that with Eric Camilli) and has some serious backers. Without an endless stream of cash being pumped in by a manufacturer, this is as good as it's going to get. Criticising M-Sport for spending less money on drivers than Toyota or Hyundai is like criticising a man with no legs for not being able to run as fast as Usain Bolt. Just be gratefully they're still willing to try.

[mknight]

As has already been asked, what can they do? Convince Ogier, Evans and Tanak to break their contracts and come back to them, or buy them out? Short of that, they won't be able to satisfy the 'one of the very best at the moment' criteria, and even if they did, I doubt Breen would be happy to see someone come in 'above' him in the pecking order. A driver lineup like Toyota's or Hyundai's costs significantly more than M-Sport have to offer.

Without Greensmith, there's no team. Fourmaux is being billed as a superstar in the making (although we saw that with Eric Camilli) and has some serious backers. Without an endless stream of cash being pumped in by a manufacturer, this is as good as it's going to get. Criticising M-Sport for spending less money on drivers than Toyota or Hyundai is like criticising a man with no legs for not being able to run as fast as Usain Bolt. Just be gratefully they're still willing to try.

Use the money they claimed to have for the top driver to get a well balanced team where they have multiple chances of success. Not just a one man team. Something like 2003-4 with Martin and Duval.
That off course, only works if they really have the money.

Fourmaux might be a superstar in the making, but even judging by Rovanpera it will take him at least a year to be able to fight for podiums, most likely longer, cause he simply lacks the experience. Rovanpera did most of the rallies in R5 twice before even driving them in WRC and it still took him an extra year in WRC to be competetive almost everywhere.
Fourmaux hasn't done many rallies at all and some in 2WD car only, like Finland where it showed massively on the times.

[mknight]

Congratulations to toyota for winning the 2022 constructors world championship.

I always considered adamo kinda brutal and impulsive, but not stupid. I wonder if this was done above his head, i can't see this as being a decision by him.

I don't agree about Adamo

Sometimes his impulsive decisions didn't seem to be well thought about.
Ex. Loeb to Portugal 2019 on a whim, to stages he has not done before and with differentials that were tested and set-up for Mikkelsen and he couldn't change (because of event pairing) => bad times followed by a crash and no points for Hyundai
Breen to Australia 2019 also seemed like clearly worse pick (and he just crashed as last Hyundai in GB), but since the rally didn't take place we never got to see the result.

He said himself that he either trusts a driver or doesn't and it seems that when he trusts a driver he will push them no matter what (and kick those he doesn't).
Right now he seems to trust Solberg no matter what and not trust Huttunen no matter what. The decision to put Solberg in WRC for Arctic was entirely his as he claims.

So I think this was his decision as well.

[AnttiL]

Use the money they claimed to have for the top driver to get a well balanced team where they have multiple chances of success. Not just a one man team. Something like 2003-4 with Martin and Duval.
That off course, only works if they really have the money.

You guys still refuse to understand the difference between investing in a world champion and investing in a "mediocre" driver.

When M-Sport invested in Ogier, they could expect lots of press attention, rally wins and even world titles (which they eventually got). And now they would have been ready to do the same with Tänak, Neuville or Evans. But it's not the same to invest Ogier's salary in three "mediocre" drivers, because they don't bring the press attention, secure rally wins or make titles possible.

If you're shopping for a new top line car but the car shop doesn't have the model you're looking for, you don't replace that with three cheaper cars, just because you can afford them with the new car price?

You can also use other examples if it makes it easier to understand. I'm ready to pay 15 euros for a glass of excellent imperial stout, but if the bar doesn't have any, I'm not satisfied by replacing that with three 5 euro pints of basic lager, even though it costs the same.

I'm almost thinking there's some marketing side involved in today's announcements. Breen brings positive image for M-Sport in the British Isles, where most of their market is (especially now with Brexit). And having Solberg in the car guarantees press attention, no matter the results.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Autosport:

"Breen is the first driver confirmed by M-Sport for 2022 although it is expected Adrien Fourmaux, who has been developing the new Puma, will be retained for next season.
It is anticipated M-Sport will field three cars next season with current driver Gus Greensmith and nine-time world champion Sebastien Loeb among those linked to a possible drive next year."

[mknight]

You guy still refuse to understand the difference between investing in a world champion and investing in a "mediocre" driver.

When M-Sport invested in Ogier, they could expect lots of press attention, rally wins and even world titles (which they eventually got). And now they would have been ready to do the same with Tänak, Neuville or Evans. But it's not the same to invest Ogier's salary in three "mediocre" drivers, because they don't bring the press attention, secure rally wins or make titles possible.

If you're shopping for a new car but the car shop doesn't have the model you're looking for, you don't replace that with three cheaper cars, just because you can afford them with the new car price?

I'm almost thinking there's some marketing side involved in today's announcements. Breen brings positive image for M-Sport in the British Isles, where most of their market is (especially now with Brexit). And having Solberg in the car guarantees press attention, no matter the results.

It's about spreading the risk. MSport need to sell cars (or drives), that's the business model.
Right now it got to the point where people with money rather go drive Rally2 than competing in WRC with MSport (Suninen), that can't work in the long run. For example even for Fourmaux or Greensmith. If they feel they can never match the other teams they leave with their money.

So MSport needs to show some results early (during 2022) to get sales up. Wilson claims there are already people interested in the cars.
With just one driver capable of podiums, the risk is much bigger than with 2 or more.

With PR it depends a lot on whether it's MSport or Ford PR that matters. For MSport Breen is good, for Ford ok-ish.
But totally agree about Hyundai, that's pretty much all about PR-hype.

[macebig]

It's Breen/Fourmaux/Greensmith for RMC. The only alternative for Sweden onwards could be Mikkelsen. Loeb won't be really available for more than 2-3 rallies at best.

[Lancia Stratos]

Hyundai announcing lineup in a tweet immediatelly seems like typical knee-jerk Adamo reaction. Especially since they now have Suninen to test in next rallies.
So I doubt that lineup is 100% confirmed.

Today's announcements have been planned for a while. Nothing impulsive about Hyundai's announcement at all.

[er88]

Things looking bleak for Mikkelsen, unless he has the money to buy his way into Msport.

Malcolm Wilson explicitly said at the start of the year he would keep an eye on his performances this year in wrc2/erc, so it seems he wasn't sufficiently impressed (maybe Mikkelsen's own domination comments hurt him too).

With Suninem gone though, surely there is some sort of deal they can come to with a bit of budget brought from Mikkelsen's side (maybe just for some rallies), which would help take the weight off Breen. Unless Fourmaux has a big step up, it's Breen and Breen alone who can get good results for the team, or it's nothing at all.

[flat_right]

Really happy for Craig! This man has delivered under pressure for quite some time now and compared to how much seat time he has had, then the deal is well earnt and long overdue! Hopefully his new car will be competitive and we can see a lot of positive stage end interviews in the next two years!

[abcrally]

Good call, but it’s always difficult to know who’s a pay driver and who is not.

We are actually talking about pay driver on this matter too. There is lot of Monster Energy money involved.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So the big Manu teams are both having part-time drivers in their 3rd car next season.

Toyota - Ogier & Lappi
Hyundai - Sordo & Solberg

I think Toyota is clearly the stronger pair. So did Hyundai make a big mistake letting Breen go rather than give him a full-time deal ? I think so.

[mknight]

Millener says they started talking in Sardinia with the deal basically done in first week of july
so before Estonia/Ypres/Finland and after a rather bad Croatia.

I'd say that's rather unexpected timing.

[Danny0405]

Strange choice from Hyundai not to wait at least Spain.
Wait and see but not really optimistic for them.

Good thing for Breen to have a full-season contract, let’s see what he can do, no excuse now.

And Dani Sordo still survives ... 17th season with a full or half-time official program

[Allez Andruet]

We are actually talking about pay driver on this matter too. There is lot of Monster Energy money involved.

Most likely there is. And ofcourse the definition of a "paydriver" is somewhat hazy too. For example Sainz was definitely a paydriver back in 1987 just like Delecour got his Ford seat in 2001 with a backing of Ford France. So it really is a thin line...

[mknight]

Strange choice from Hyundai not to wait at least Spain.
Wait and see but not really optimistic for them.



Exactly why I wondered if it's a knee-jerk reaction from Hyundai. Surely they have known Breen is leaving for some time, so they created press release to put out immediatelly when it comes out.

But why? Solberg had a two year contract anyway, Sordo is not going anywhere. Waiting after Spain or Monza would make much more sense and make better PR. Especially if they time the release after a rally where Solberg has done something good. Right now it just kind of drowned behind the Breen announcement.

Is it a desperate attempt by Adamo to save his job? (by showing he had "planned" for this)

[Sulland]

The challengees for M-Sport are a few.
We do not know the quality on their two drivers this year, since the WRCar is not that quick.
Their money maker the Rally2 car is not selling much. The car struggles to get results, espesially on loose surface. So little demand.
Theor Rally4 will loose JWRC,msince that will go to the rally3 class. They are per now the only provider, but the class will be open to all manus.

They do not sell as many Rally5 cars as Renault, and profit will be less on these.

So,
they need a number 2 driver, in addition to the two pay drivers they have now.
they need to joker their Rally2 car to fix its challenges, and get competitive, amd sell more cars. Here they also get a lot of service, due to high output on engine and suspension tha creates income.
Hopefully the rest will not get a Rall3 car on the market in 22, so they sell a good bunch of those.
Rally4 and 5 do not represent that much bread and milk, that it can support Rally1. So Ford will have to give more to balance the books in the top class.

[Lancia Stratos]

Is it a desperate attempt by Adamo to save his job? (by showing he had "planned" for this)

A desperate attempt to save his job? Not sure where these rumours are coming from but Adamo is going nowhere.

[TypeR]

oh no, such a weird time to announce the line-up..
Toyota
Ingrassia will retire after this season, B. Veillas on his seat.
No word about Taka tho..
https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/toyota-gazoo-racing-confirms-2022-line-up/

[Andre Oliveira]

About Takamoto

https://twitter.com/tgr_wrc/status/1446028220197969922?s=21

[mknight]

A desperate attempt to save his job? Not sure where these rumours are coming from but Adamo is going nowhere.

I only relay what I heard.
Anyway if he keeps his job he surely is a perfect match with Solberg this season.

Cause basically the only thing that didn't go wrong way for Hyundai this year is signing of Neuville and Tanak ( though it remains to be seen how that works out).

- no driver title (1-2 for Toyota)
- no manu title
- Rally2 car delayed, reliability issues and questionable performance
- disaster results in WRC2 for anyone but Huttunen (who drives in private team)

[MotoReklama]

https://toyotagazooracing.com/wrc/release/2021/1007-01/

[macebig]

If I was a gambling man, I would bet on Toyota still hoping/trying for a full/extended schedule from Ogier. And that's why they are keeping options open for Katsuta. If they persuade Ogier to extend his program, Lappi will get moved to the 4th Rally1 Yaris, currently slated for Katsuta.

[Lancia Stratos]

If I was a gambling man, I would bet on Toyota still hoping/trying for a full/extended schedule from Ogier. And that's why they are keeping options open for Katsuta. If they persuade Ogier to extend his program, Lappi will get moved to the 4th Rally1 Yaris, currently slated for Katsuta.

Katsuta will be there next year.

[djip]

A desperate attempt to save his job? Not sure where these rumours are coming from but Adamo is going nowhere.

Throwing a pinch of salt here... If the rumor of Adamo being on the hot seat are true, anyone thinking that maybe Solberg Sr. is waiting in the wings ? He had been pretty vocal in the past about his willingness to run a factory WRC team, has a very positive image in Asia from his Subaru days ... and this may explain the signing of Oliver which every pundit agrees is too early if not in a 4th, zero-responsability, car ... Just speculating of course.

[AnttiL]

Any news from 2022 WRC2 teams/drivers? Toksport, M-Sport, Hyundai, Citroen, Movisport, …?

[er88]

Sure Msport would've liked Gryazin in their team for WRC2 (+ some testing and 1 or 2 events in rally 1 car), but I guess that looks bleak due to how bad Gryazin feels the Fiesta rally2 is?

[skarderud]

Sure Msport would've liked Gryazin in their team for WRC2 (+ some testing and 1 or 2 events in rally 1 car), but I guess that looks bleak due to how bad Gryazin feels the Fiesta rally2 is?They should get Mikkelsen, most Rally1, but also testing, development, and some rallies in the Rally2.
An investment in the future for M-sport.
Half-ass drivers can't develop a car to it's best.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[Mirek]

They should get Mikkelsen, most Rally1, but also testing, development, and some rallies in the Rally2.
An investment in the future for M-sport.
Half-ass drivers can't develop a car to it's best.

There is no correlation between driver's speed and their ability to develop a car. Some of the best test drivers never achieved anything on world level (Philippe Bugalski, Mark Higgins, Bryan Bouffier, Roman Kresta) while some top WRC drivers haven't understood their cars at all.

[AndyRAC]

There is no correlation between driver's speed and their ability to develop a car. Some of the best test drivers never achieved anything on world level (Philippe Bugalski, Mark Higgins, Bryan Bouffier, Roman Kresta) while some top WRC drivers haven't understood their cars at all.

Reminds me of plenty of Japanese motorcycle testers, who were fabulous with testing, and feedback; but when getting wild card entries to race, they weren't fast. It can be a special skill, which not all can do.

[Steve Boyd]

There is no correlation between driver's speed and their ability to develop a car. Some of the best test drivers never achieved anything on world level (Philippe Bugalski, Mark Higgins, Bryan Bouffier, Roman Kresta) while some top WRC drivers haven't understood their cars at all.


Reminds me of plenty of Japanese motorcycle testers, who were fabulous with testing, and feedback; but when getting wild card entries to race, they weren't fast. It can be a special skill, which not all can do.
And how many F1 teams over the years have had a midfield driver who could get the set-up right for the star driver to be a winner but when the midfielder left the star was nowhere.

[cali]

And how many F1 teams over the years have had a midfield driver who could get the set-up right for the star driver to be a winner but when the midfielder left the star was nowhere.Luca Badoer comes to my mind first who was the main test driver for many years.

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[TWRC]

Luca Badoer comes to my mind first who was the main test driver for many years.

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk
Also de la Rosa for McLaren from the mid to end-2000s.

On the rallying side, Lasse Lampi for Ralliart or Pasi Hagström for Subaru are also good examples I think.

[AnttiL]

Jorge Recalde used to do testing for Lancia. Lampi also worked for Audi in group B days. Sebastian Lindholm did lots of testing for Peugeot in the 00's.

[seb_sh]

We should mention Pentti Airikkala on that list for rally as well. He was active on this forum before he passed and was known for setting cars up well and coaching drivers. He only won 1 WRC event but was often in the background testing, doing setups or coaching.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/december-2009/26/obituaries

https://www.fairfieldmotorsport.com/PenttiAirikkala1945-2009.htm

[cali]

As we can see Mirek's claim holds water very tightly :)

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[mknight]

The missing thing is interaction between driver and engineers.
With simple cars it might be the drivers that tell engineers exactly what to change or even do it themselves.

In WRC today it likely is much more about telling the engineer what that car does and should do and it's engineers job to translate it to diff maps or suspension settings.


And then there is the decisions and priority aspect. If leadership says the engineer decides and driver just drives it's hard to change much (Meeke in C3, Nandan's phylosophy). Or if they use 50 different dampers and do every test run with a different pair (Hyundai 2018).
For priority it's a problem if one driver wants to make changes that need a joker and don't suit the other driver. (Lappi seemed to have this issues both at Toyota and Citroen, Paddon at Hyundai etc.)

[Danny0405]

There is no correlation between driver's speed and their ability to develop a car. Some of the best test drivers never achieved anything on world level (Philippe Bugalski, Mark Higgins, Bryan Bouffier, Roman Kresta) while some top WRC drivers haven't understood their cars at all.

Agree (we can also evoked Matthew Wilson) but in the case of M-Sport for its Rally2 car, they need to dramatically improve the car but also to have a consistent driver to deliver results against good drivers such as Ostberg, Suninen, ...

So I think that with his experience even in RC2, it would be a very good pick to hire Mikkelsen with an offer 4/5 Rally1 rallyes (even if it means Greensmith and Fourmaux does 11 rallyes out of 13 each) + a 7-round program in Rally2.
And for Mikkelsen, it is not a bad offer as a third year without any Rally1 drives would almost have meant the end of his hopes of returning in the main category.
It costs a little money maybe but I don’t really howM-Sport can come back in the game in Rally2 without a move like this (or an equivalent driver but they cannot attract Suninen so it lets only Ostberg which is that simple) and this category is important for them.

[mknight]

I am getting the impression that MSport is now sacrificing "everything" for Rally1. I'd guess with the aim of both "pleasing" Ford and selling the Rally1 cars (or drives in them).

In many ways the situation is very similar to 2005-2006. In 2005 they used Gardemeister and Kresta (who was paying) + some other pay starts (Sola).
Then in 2006 they hired Gronholm who was 2x World Champion and Hirvonen who had some very good results/speed the year before. Most notably they also basically completely ignored Fiesta S1600 development at that time.

So now it is entirely possible they ignore Rally2 development for a while and try to get more income from Rally1 where they have less competition.
(depends on how Hyundai acts though, lately they started offering paydrives to the likes of Loubet, Veiby and now Solans, basically stealing MSport businness case)

For me the biggest differences is in the lineup: Gronholm+Hirvonen vs Breen+ Fourmaux and Greensmith (likely).
- Breen has more merits and experience than Hirvonen had in 2005 but nowehere near Gronholm.
- Fourmaux is about comparable with Hirvonen at end of 2003 (two years less experience).
Both are one step down basically.

- Greemsmith now is a perfect copy of Matthew Wilson at that time, in more ways that one.

[Mirek]

The missing thing is interaction between driver and engineers.
With simple cars it might be the drivers that tell engineers exactly what to change or even do it themselves.

In WRC today it likely is much more about telling the engineer what that car does and should do and it's engineers job to translate it to diff maps or suspension settings.

Sorry but that is a misconception. The cars of today are NOT more complicated than those of the past. Today all cars are generally same and relatively simple (even 2017-2021 WRC ones). The WRC of 2000' were definitely more complicated than those of today. Add to that stuff like twenty different tyre compounds for every rally and you'll end up with a head-exploding stuff. The cars of gr.B were complicated in a different way - each one was very different to another and there was little universal knowledge applicable on all. Today all cars are generally same and bound by very strict rules, nobody can bring something completely ground breaking which requires discovering completely different settings. In the gr.B era that was the case of nearly every car.

[mknight]

Was thinking about the Group A era (1987-1998/9) since people like Pentti got mentioned.
The 2000-2005 WRC were quite complicated with 3 active diffs and various styles of semi-active suspension tricks (nice summary on WRCWINGS lately).

[Mirek]

Was thinking about the Group A era (1987-1998/9) since people like Pentti got mentioned.
The 2000-2005 WRC were quite complicated with 3 active diffs and various styles of semi-active suspension tricks (nice summary on WRCWINGS lately).

Gr.A era brough plenty of new features which weren't used before in rallying while the currently ending era brought basically nothing never used before. Rear-axle handbrake release, hydraulic differentials, sequential gearboxes, anti-lag systems, non-linear springs, helper springs, air-pressure reservoirs, air-cooled brakes, turbo restrictors were all big news of the gr.A era (to name some).

[Danny0405]

I am getting the impression that MSport is now sacrificing "everything" for Rally1. I'd guess with the aim of both "pleasing" Ford and selling the Rally1 cars (or drives in them).

Would sound really strange to me because, except maybe the McRae-Sainz era, even in its best period of involvement, Ford didn’t put as much money as other manufacturers.
In addition to that, even if they have succeeded in containing the increase in cost with the new generation, the 2022 car will still cost a lot more than the prior-2016 car so there will not be really much customers than in the 2017-2021 period for them (maybe they can have one or two customers per rallye maximum which would already be an improvement but not sufficient to cover all costs of the team).

+ if they wanted to put all in Rally1, I understand they couldn’t attract a big driver in their situation but, at least, they should have retain a second good driver such as Lappi.

[MentalParadox]

Throwing a pinch of salt here... If the rumor of Adamo being on the hot seat are true, anyone thinking that maybe Solberg Sr. is waiting in the wings ? He had been pretty vocal in the past about his willingness to run a factory WRC team, has a very positive image in Asia from his Subaru days ... and this may explain the signing of Oliver which every pundit agrees is too early if not in a 4th, zero-responsability, car ... Just speculating of course.

I think any talk of Adamo being given the boot is just ridiculous. In three years, he delivered Hyundai two manufacturer titles, while Nandan before him managed exactly zero in 4 years. Getting rid of Andrea would be a horrible move, imo... I think some people here just don't like him because he has a strong personality and tends to speaks his mind, a trait often despised in this corporate era where everyone has their personality media trained out of them.

[mknight]

Before I heard the rumor 1,5 months ago I never even thought about it. Nobody really had any rumors about Penasse before he got kicked either.

Anyway the results this year are a disaster in multiple ways as was listed before, no reason to repeat it.

Another thing is his personality.
2 years ago I though he was ruthless, but clever. Since then my opinion of him changed to a "panic manager" that changes his "beliefs" on the spot. One rally he talks about some principles that he always has, 4 rallies later he does the opposite and says that was always his opinion.
Lately "kicking" Solberg upwards after every crash on a whim is starting to border craziness.

Note how the Hyundai results seem to go down while the number of his strange decisions increases.

[djip]

I think any talk of Adamo being given the boot is just ridiculous. In three years, he delivered Hyundai two manufacturer titles, while Nandan before him managed exactly zero in 4 years. Getting rid of Andrea would be a horrible move, imo... I think some people here just don't like him because he has a strong personality and tends to speaks his mind, a trait often despised in this corporate era where everyone has their personality media trained out of them.

Don't put me wrong : I love the man, the character. but as mknight said, his latest decisions are strange at best. If you shoot for a championship, your 3rd car must be a "fast but safe driver", Sordo-like. There are aplenty out there, ostberg probably the best example . If you want to gamble a bit, why not trying Paddon. And then if you look into the future, you can play the long game with a fast-but-crash-prone youngster such as Solberg, but that's about it (BTW, looking at how the seaons unfolded, fame and glorious name apart, would'nt you place your bets for the promising youngster on yohann rossel ? He has been real dominant in WRC3 and lately was even chasiing the top WR2 guys ....

[Got Mail]

Before I heard the rumor 1,5 months ago I never even thought about it. Nobody really had any rumors about Penasse before he got kicked either.

Anyway the results this year are a disaster in multiple ways as was listed before, no reason to repeat it.

Another thing is his personality.
2 years ago I though he was ruthless, but clever. Since then my opinion of him changed to a "panic manager" that changes his "beliefs" on the spot. One rally he talks about some principles that he always has, 4 rallies later he does the opposite and says that was always his opinion.
Lately "kicking" Solberg upwards after every crash on a whim is starting to border craziness.

Note how the Hyundai results seem to go down while the number of his strange decisions increases.

I think he's a dick.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It seems that Breen signed to M-Sport a while ago as he couldnt turn down the offer of a full-time drive.

This then left Adamo with a problem of who to sign to help their 2022 Manu's challenge, while also keeping the Solberg's on-board for the future.

[seb_sh]

Besides the aparent chaos i don't think the Hyundai driver choice was and is bad. They already have 2 potential champion drivers and Sordo/Breen for the third car was not bad at all. Toyota accepted a risk and put Kalle in the third nominated car and it paid off. They could do that as they had Ogier and Evans, also two potential champions. Now Hyundai is taking the risk with Solberg but since he's not proven they are mixing their chances and keeping the "known quantity" in Sordo, putting this in context of still having the two potential champions Tanak and Neuville, then the risk is only for one car for half a season. I don't think that's the problem. I think the problem at Hyundai is pressure and rushing things which leads to mistakes, unpreparedness and reliability issues. At least that's the vibe i'm getting.

[mknight]

Millener says Breen came to them himself in Sardinia asking for a drive which was signed after Safari and before Estonia.

There seem to be some good reasons for the timing of the first meeting:
- Solberg just announced for Safari and didn't start crashing (that much) yet (= the reason)
- Suninen crashed on first stage again (= the opportunity)
- Fiesta just did some good stagetimes in Portugal and Croatia (= also a reason)

But on the other side Breen had pretty meh results before Estonia ( 4th and last Hyundai in Arctic that should suit him and crash out of 5th as last Hyundai in Croatia), so maybe the most surprising part is that Malcolm wanted to sign him at that point.

Anyway it is then possible that Adamo maybe got more interested in giving him a full time drive after Ypres, but by then it was too late.

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/greensmith-and-co-driver-patterson-to-part-after-spain/

[skarderud]

Solberg had a bad season, all drivers have this kind of season sometimes, remember Rovenpära also had a season like this in Skoda (2019?).
Its a risk to promote him to top class, but it was also a risk to put Rovenpära in top class in 2020. Worked quite well.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[steve.mandzij]

Solberg had a bad season, all drivers have this kind of season sometimes, remember Rovenpära also had a season like this in Skoda (2019?).
Its a risk to promote him to top class, but it was also a risk to put Rovenpära in top class in 2020. Worked quite well.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via TapatalkRovanpera did an entire season of WRC2 only, frequently showed strong pace, and won the championship at the end of the year.

Solberg has finished two (2) WRC rallies all year and retired from six (6), four of those retirements owing to damage he caused on the stages.

It's not a risk to promote Solberg to the top class right now, it's just delusional.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[Co-FIN]

..

[denkimi]

Toyota accepted a risk and put Kalle in the third nominated car and it paid off.
No it didn't, they lost the 2020 title due to it.

[AnttiL]

No it didn't, they lost the 2020 title due to it.

or because of Evans crashing in Monza, or Ogier's engine blowing in Turkey, or Ogier losing to Neuville by fractions in Sardegna...it's not so simple.

[TypeR]

No it didn't, they lost the 2020 title due to it.

First season in WRC and finishing in Top5.. not really bad, to be honest.

If anyone(but no real reason) ro blame, then Evans lost both(maybe) titles in the ditch in Monza..
What did you expect from Kalle last year? Ending the season ahead Ogier, Tänak, Neuville..? funny

[mknight]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/greensmith-and-co-driver-patterson-to-part-after-spain/

“We know how important having a good co-driver alongside me is,” said Greensmith.

Well this could have come out wrong, but I doubt Greensmiths issues with Elliot were cause Elliot was "bad" co-driver, given the recent record with Mikkelsen.
It was more that he (Greensmith) needed some co-driver to steer him.
Undoubtedly there has been some improvement, but as said before I disagree that it "has shown that Greesmith deservers to drive WRC" on speed/performance alone.

--------

or because of Evans crashing in Monza, or Ogier's engine blowing in Turkey, or Ogier losing to Neuville by fractions in Sardegna...it's not so simple.

I disagree, what you mention are details that might have made Toyota win anyway, yet they did not even though the were 1-2 in drivers. In way it was Tanaks and Neuvilles issues that almost lost title for Hyundai. (also remember mexico with issues for all 3 cars 2x technical,1 crash). Also remember that Evans had much better results than basically anyone expected before the season.

In direct comparison Rovanpera was supposed to outscore Sordo+Breen+Loeb on their chosen rallies with road position advantage, in his first WRC season. That was entirely impossible.

In the end Rovanpera got just 27 manu points!
Sordo+Breen+Loeb got 81 !!!

Rovanpera did great for first season, but he didn't have a chance beforehand.
----

But I find it amusing that people (even WRC journalists) compare Solberg and Rovanpera a year ago. It's like a completely different sport.
As AnttiL wrote on twitter Rovanpera had some 3500? more stage kms in R5 before going to WRC... and a WRC2 title.... and lots of wins.

Rovanpera has had the fastest driver development curve in (recent?) history... and then Hyundai tries to develop Solberg twice as fast.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Given the decision of Breen to jump ship early to M-Sport, was there a better single 3rd driver or combination Adamo could have signed than Sordo/Solberg ?

If Sordo and Solberg just do their strongest/favourite events they should be good points scorers if required.

[SubaruNorway]

Oliver of course wanted to be in a 4th car but there's not enough cars yet, I think from what I understand he will do the other rounds in the old car if FIA gets the rules for it set.

[Mirek]

Oliver of course wanted to be in a 4th car but there's not enough cars yet, I think from what I understand he will do the other rounds in the old car if FIA gets the rules for it set.

The old cars are faster than the new ones. Trying to ballance them to similar speed makes no sense whatsoever, therefore the only option is to make them much slower than they are now (by using small restrictor for example). Either way I don't see any reason why someone with any ambitions would opt to drive a singular car running basically outside of the championship system. It makes thousand times more sense to drive Rally2 instead.

[SubaruNorway]

The old cars are faster than the new ones. Trying to ballance them to similar speed makes no sense whatsoever, therefore the only option is to make them much slower than they are now (by using small restrictor for example). Either way I don't see any reason why someone with any ambitions would opt to drive a singular car running basically outside of the championship system. It makes thousand times more sense to drive Rally2 instead.

If the rally2 was a good car that is

[mknight]

Given the decision of Breen to jump ship early to M-Sport, was there a better single 3rd driver or combination Adamo could have signed than Sordo/Solberg ?


This is a good point. Maybe there weren't, especially if you disregard Lappi (as "already" heading to Toyota) and Mikkelsen (because Adamo doesn't trust him (own words)).

But there was no haste, Sordo is not going anywhere else and Solberg was already signed for 2 years so he would have to break contract.
They could have waited with any announcement until after Monza and wait if something shows up..... like Suninen which could be a good match with Sordo for the fast rallies. At this very point Suninen does seem like a better option than Solberg for that.

-------------------


Oliver of course wanted to be in a 4th car but there's not enough cars yet, I think from what I understand he will do the other rounds in the old car if FIA gets the rules for it set.

As Mirek says running a detuned 2017 cars seems crazy.

Essentially he would be driving a car setup that nobody ever used (less power/diferent power curve might need different diff settings) that is sensitive to setup and has different diffs (active + adjustable front/rear), which are different than the new car. Against likely no competition (so nobody to compare stagetimes with).

Running Rally2 instead would mean "easier" car to set-up, more competition to compare with, less running costs.

[Mirek]

If the rally2 was a good car that is

Still much better option than to drive a car nobody else drives and outside of any competition.

Plus it's not like Oliver has nothing to prove in WRC2. Quite the opposite.

[denkimi]

or because of Evans crashing in Monza, or Ogier's engine blowing in Turkey, or Ogier losing to Neuville by fractions in Sardegna...it's not so simple.
It is so simple. They ended up one and two in the championship, yet didn't win the title. So that was only due to the 3th driver failing to beat Hyundai's 3 driver(s).

It is of course impossible to know, but i believe that with someone like mikkelsen or lappi they would have most likely won the title.

So as i said, putting rovanpera in that car has cost them the title. They should have put him in a junior team with katsuta.
So that's not rovanpera's fault, that makinen's fault.


First season in WRC and finishing in Top5.. not really bad, to be honest.

If anyone(but no real reason) ro blame, then Evans lost both(maybe) titles in the ditch in Monza..
What did you expect from Kalle last year? Ending the season ahead Ogier, Tänak, Neuville..? funny
Kalle did well, better than i expected. But just like now with solberg, putting an unknown first timer in a factory that's supposed to win the title is just plain stupid.

But again, that was makinens fault. And, i suppose, one of the reasons he is not the manager anymore.

[OHL]

It is so simple. They ended up one and two in the championship, yet didn't win the title. So that was only due to the 3th driver failing to beat Hyundai's 3 driver(s).

It is of course impossible to know, but i believe that with someone like mikkelsen or lappi they would have most likely won the title.

So as i said, putting rovanpera in that car has cost them the title. They should have put him in a junior team with katsuta.
So that's not rovanpera's fault, that makinen's fault.


Kalle did well, better than i expected. But just like now with solberg, putting an unknown first timer in a factory that's supposed to win the title is just plain stupid.

But again, that was makinens fault. And, i suppose, one of the reasons he is not the manager anymore.

Yeah, I can kind of see it but you have to think about these things from all angles. Everyone was expecting Seb to leave already at the end of last year. The fact that he stayed on for one more season was only a bonus.
With a talent like Kalle, if he is on the bubble you push him forward, you don't hold him back for one more season. He proved himself in R5 and needed 1 solid season in the WRC car to get up to speed. What better year to do that than when you have 2 really strong drivers to cover his lower performance? 2020 was a learning year for him but he arrived to 2021 ready to fight at the top. Overall, it has worked out as a good strategy for Toyota to manage Seb leaving and have 2 strong drivers again to underpin the team while Lappi settles in. 2021 is a gangbuster year for Toyota and Kalle has played a not insignificant role in that.

That said, I don't see Oliver in the same place Kalle was when he moved forward to WRC. Oliver could do with another year of development. Hyundai might get lucky with him and Oliver could have some great performances in 2022 but we'll have to wait and see.

[AnttiL]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/m-sport-no-shock-signings-for-remaining-2022-wrc-seats/6686466/amp/

No surprises coming from M-Sport

[er88]

So Mikkelsen, Ostberg, (Paddon), Suninen, Gryazin etc all wrc2 or will have to pay to drive a rally1 (or nothing at all). However with Msport pushing for privateers in the rally1, I can see Mikkelsen and maybe Gryazin paying for a few events. Suninen probably wrc2 for Hyundai, maybe a few events in a 2c hyundai later in the year, and Ostberg wrc2 again with citroen if he still has the appetite for another season in that category?

Paddon probably nothing, or a one off event with Msport somewhere. Loubet is a bit of an unknown too, especially if Hyundai might not have (m)any spare i20 rally1s for most of the year.

[AnttiL]

In direct comparison Rovanpera was supposed to outscore Sordo+Breen+Loeb on their chosen rallies with road position advantage, in his first WRC season. That was entirely impossible.

In the end Rovanpera got just 27 manu points!
Sordo+Breen+Loeb got 81 !!!

The thing with manu points is that the third best driver never gets them. With Hyundai's third drivers getting so much points, it's more of an indication that their first and second drivers got into trouble more often. Rovanperä finished many rallies as the third best Toyota, and in those situations his position was irrelevant to manu points. But it's also true there were rallies where he should have been ahead of some Hyundais, like Turkey, Sardinia and Monza.

[jonkka]

In the end Rovanpera got just 27 manu points!
Sordo+Breen+Loeb got 81 !!!


In 2020 Manufacturers'?
Rovanpera scored 37 points.
Sordo 40, Breen 18 and Loeb 25 which is total of 83 points.

[pantealex]

So Mikkelsen, Ostberg, (Paddon), Suninen, Gryazin etc all wrc2 or will have to pay to drive a rally1 (or nothing at all). However with Msport pushing for privateers in the rally1, I can see Mikkelsen and maybe Gryazin paying for a few events.

Msport was pushing for privateers 2017 also ...

Result is that both Hyundai and Toyota have builded more WRC17-21 cars than Msport.

[Danny0405]

Given the decision of Breen to jump ship early to M-Sport, was there a better single 3rd driver or combination Adamo could have signed than Sordo/Solberg ?

If Sordo and Solberg just do their strongest/favourite events they should be good points scorers if required.

No remaining drivers deserved a full-time season so a split car was the best decision. Sordo is a no brainer considering his level on asphalt; the only question was about the fast-gravel/snow driver; I think Solberg is not the best choice but at least, they succeed in taking Suninen in their «*sphere of influence*» so that if Solberg still get trouble, they could test him.

About the debate on last year manufacturer title, do not forget that Toyota lost the 2019 title so saying it is Rovanpera’s fault (or the fact of signing him) is harsh. He was consistent as a third driver by ensuring a 4th or 5th position each time.
Personally, for me, the main responsible of Toyota’s loss last year is the regulation which allows such a dominant manufacturer to lose the championship and also, don’t forget Evans craziness in Monza (understandable but he could have won the championship being more conservative).
And also the fact that Toyota have never applied a split car strategy (they will do it next year but more because you cannot refuse a seat to Ogier than because they are willing to, and even let’s see if Lappi will not do full year thanks to the 4th car) which has some advantages and some drawbacks
At least, it allowed Hyundai not to be humiliated but, from a performance point of view, there is no debate of which was the best manufacturer in 2020.

About M-Sport, I absolutely do not understand their strategy if they let Mikkelsen out, considering their situation in Rally2; as he has other ressources (Red Bull), I think he would even accept to drive for free as far as M-Sport gives him 4-5 Rally1 outings.

[mknight]

You can also turn MSports thinking around...let's say they don't have enough cars in the start of the season and taking Mikkelsen in would mean Greensmith can't run 1-2 rallies in the new car ( but could in the detuned old car as MSport now claims).
Do they think he would leave and take the money elsewhere? Where? Toyota rarely sells ride and will have enough work securing car for Katsuta. Hyundai will have similar issues with Solberg and already have Loubet, Veiby and likely Suninen interested in rides.

[Danny0405]

You can also turn MSports thinking around...let's say they don't have enough cars in the start of the season and taking Mikkelsen in would mean Greensmith can't run 1-2 rallies in the new car ( but could in the detuned old car as MSport now claims).
Do they think he would leave and take the money elsewhere? Where? Toyota rarely sells ride and will have enough work securing car for Katsuta. Hyundai will have similar issues with Solberg and already have Loubet, Veiby and likely Suninen interested in rides.

Personnally, my idea would be
Full season for Breen
11 Rally1 rounds for Greensmith
11 for Fourmaux
4 for Mikkelsen where Greensmith and/or Fourmaux are not competitive (Sweden instead of one of the two, one tarmac instead of Greensmith + 2 others) + a full 7-round Rally2 season.
And another young M-Sport driver in Rally 2 (Cais?)

Would sound a good compromise for all: Greensmith and Fourmaux with almost full season and being out only for rallies where they are not efficient.
M-Sport would benefit from Mikkelsen’s experience to try a come-back at a better level in Rally2 (as Citroen did with Ostberg).
And Mikkelsen would benefit from some Rally1 outings to maintain a hope of coming-back (3 years outside the main category would be too much like Ostberg now).

[AnttiL]

Le Mans 24h is arranged 11-12th June so it doesn’t prevent Ogier from doing any rally.

Only two WEC races collide with WRC: Fuji with Acropolis and Bahrain with Rally Japan.

Only one Extreme E race collides with WRC, again it’s Acropolis.

Ogier can pretty much pick and choose his rallies.

[seb_sh]

No it didn't, they lost the 2020 title due to it.

Who was available that could score more? Lappi maybe if he didn't go to Ford? Whoever it was needed to beat Loeb in Turkey and Sordo in Monza, otherwise you need someone who can beat "the big 4" in other rallies. Maybe if Toyota went with multiple drivers to profit from road position, but again who was available? Paddon? Hyundai simply had the better cards this time.

When Rovanpera was decided to be 3rd driver it was supposed to be Ogier's last season. What I meant was that they put a young driver in a full factory seat and now they have another rally winner and a clear driver for the future.

[pantealex]

Many here accept that Greensmith takes 1 seat with money. What if KIMI (or someone else with big pockets) wants to buy a ride in 3rd car ?

Are you OK with that too ?

I mean situation where 4th or 5th car isn´t available and therefore some fast driver must sit out.

Also with other teams than just MSport

[AnttiL]

Other teams’ budgets are not based on paying customers so they would just say ”sorry, please come later when we have more cars”

As for M-Sport, why would they sack Greensmith to let Kimi drive assuming the price is the same?

[mknight]

Who was available that could score more? Lappi maybe if he didn't go to Ford? Whoever it was needed to beat Loeb in Turkey and Sordo in Monza, otherwise you need someone who can beat "the big 4" in other rallies. Maybe if Toyota went with multiple drivers to profit from road position, but again who was available? Paddon? Hyundai simply had the better cards this time.

When Rovanpera was decided to be 3rd driver it was supposed to be Ogier's last season. What I meant was that they put a young driver in a full factory seat and now they have another rally winner and a clear driver for the future.

Mikkelsen was available.

You know the guy that just ended 4th in WRC (narrowly) beating Evans with same number of starts. That Evans that went to Toyota from that 5th place and almost won title. (and both of them beat Latvala, Meeke and Lappi who did 2 more rounds).

This big improvement of Evans was actually what gave Toyota some title chance in the first place. If Evans performed more in line with his previous years Toyota wouldn't stand any chance.

[Danny0405]

You know the guy that just ended 4th in WRC (narrowly) beating Evans with same number of starts.

Not really comparable as Evans was in M-Sport and Mikkelsen in Hyundai and Mikkelsen’s 10-round program was more favourable than Evans’.

But yeah Toyota may have chosen another driver than Rovanpera but taking Rovis is an investment for them. Maybe it costs them a manufacturer title (and it is too easy to summarize it like this I think) but the return on investment could be great.
And another team may have hired him without this offer.

[seb_sh]

Fair enough, you could put Mikkelsen in and you have a better chance at the title if you consider he would be at Evans' level or above. But you also need to look long term and for that I would argue there is more future potential in Rovanpera.

[mknight]

The initial argument was that putting Rovanpera full time in 3rd car lost them manu title in 2020. That stands.
Using Mikkelsen in that seat or using him only for some rallies while Rovanpera drove in an extra car would have given them much better chance.

IMO it's quite hard to argue that Rovanpera's development would go slower if he wasn't nominated on some rallies as long as he would start them. Car availability doesn't seem to be a problem at Toyota (ref Lappi in Finland, Latvala last year). So it was only a question of money and management choice.

[BigWorm]

The initial argument was that putting Rovanpera full time in 3rd car lost them manu title in 2020. That stands.

Or Ogier's engine giving up in Turkey, or Evans going off from 3rd in Monza.

[meh]

The initial argument was that putting Rovanpera full time in 3rd car lost them manu title in 2020. That stands.

Is this argument still for real? 5 points difference and this was ONLY because it was Rovanperä as 3rd driver? It can be f*cking whatever. Tiny mistake by whoever which cost position. Some puncture. For Ogier or Evans as well. Over season 5 point win is a bit question of luck already.

[seb_sh]

The initial argument was that putting Rovanpera full time in 3rd car lost them manu title in 2020. That stands.
Using Mikkelsen in that seat or using him only for some rallies while Rovanpera drove in an extra car would have given them much better chance.

IMO it's quite hard to argue that Rovanpera's development would go slower if he wasn't nominated on some rallies as long as he would start them. Car availability doesn't seem to be a problem at Toyota (ref Lappi in Finland, Latvala last year). So it was only a question of money and management choice.

I don't know the car/budget situation at Toyota. Lappi seems to have paid for the drive in an older spec car. And Katsuta you can put an asterisk on why there is budget for a 4th car. Ok on paper you can say 'Mikkelsen would have scored more manufacturer points for Toyota than Rovanpera' assuming Mikkelsen has a very similar performance trajectory to Evans in that car. What if there was no pandemic and Rovanpera got more km in the car, maybe he would be on more podiums already at the end of last year.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

2020 Driver Points:
Rovanpera 80
Hyundai's Third 91

Kalle did pretty well vs the Hyundai Third considering they were on their favourite events and with better road positions.

[AnttiL]

The initial argument was that putting Rovanpera full time in 3rd car lost them manu title in 2020. That stands.
Using Mikkelsen in that seat or using him only for some rallies while Rovanpera drove in an extra car would have given them much better chance.

IMO it's quite hard to argue that Rovanpera's development would go slower if he wasn't nominated on some rallies as long as he would start them. Car availability doesn't seem to be a problem at Toyota (ref Lappi in Finland, Latvala last year). So it was only a question of money and management choice.

It’s different resource-wise to rent a car in one-off event than to have an extra car in all rounds. Personnel, spare parts, chassis service capacity in garage, test days…not just money.

But if Katsuta wasn’t in fourth car, maybe they would have slotted Kalle there. But maybe the third seat would have gone to Latvala or Meeke?

[er88]

Moot point in a way as Toyota were never hiring Mikkelsen anyway, because the team simply don't rate him (they overlooked him at the end of 2016 for JML, kept Hanninen who had a shocking 1st half of 2017 while Mikkelsen was a free agent, and now again they've not shown any interest for next year and opted for Lappi instead). Kalle was a must sign, and he needed pushed into a fulltime seat to learn and adapt to the pressures and levels required. (And in a covid year, with less events and seat time, plus Evans Monza mistake and Ogier dropped pts..., running Kalle a full season wasn't solely why they lost the title as has been mentioned).

[denkimi]

Is this argument still for real? 5 points difference and this was ONLY because it was Rovanperä as 3rd driver? It can be f*cking whatever. Tiny mistake by whoever which cost position. Some puncture. For Ogier or Evans as well. Over season 5 point win is a bit question of luck already.
Punctures are not a choice, just like crashes or mechanical failures. But drivers are.

Ogier and Evans were one and two in the championship. So without the 3th driver being able to score points, they would have easily taken the title.

However you put it, had they chosen to take a different more proven 3th driver, they would most likely have won the title.

It was not some unforseeable issue, it was a deliberate choice. A choice that was predictably bad considering what the competition did.
And it cost them the title.
Not because Rovanperä did bad, but because he was up to way too good drivers.

[mknight]

2020 Driver Points:
Rovanpera 80
Hyundai's Third 91

Kalle did pretty well vs the Hyundai Third considering they were on their favourite events and with better road positions.

Driver points are not the same as manu points.
In manu points Rovanpera had 37 vs 85 (I think), posted just a few pages back.

All the people posting how it was so close...yes it was, cause Ogier and Evans were 1-2 in champs and Evans had massive performance increase.

Anyway this shouldn't be a history thread. Even though it's interesting to see how people can't remember one year back.

[mknight]

But if Katsuta wasn’t in fourth car, maybe they would have slotted Kalle there. But maybe the third seat would have gone to Latvala or Meeke?
Latvala and Meeke lost them the title the year before, by finishing behind both Evans and Mikkelsen even with 2 more rounds.

[AnttiL]

Latvala and Meeke lost them the title the year before, by finishing behind both Evans and Mikkelsen even with 2 more rounds.

Yes but Adamo was not their team leader. No impulsive decisions.

[AnttiL]

Driver points are not the same as manu points.

And like I've said, there's a more complex scoring system.

As an extreme example, if a team gets 1-2-3's in every rally, first driver wins every event, second driver finishes second and third driver third, the third driver scores 0 manufacturer points during the whole season. Has he performed bad?

And then in another scenario the first and second driver retire every second event so the third driver finishes second in every rally while first and second driver alternate winning the events. Now the third driver scores manufacturer points in every rally although the team score is equal to the first scenario. Did he do any better than in the first scenario?

[seb_sh]

Just for fun, lowest position that Toyota 3rd driver needed to do in each rally so that the team scores more than it did:
1. Monte: Win and beat Neuville, Ogier, Evans, Lappi (Rovanpera 5th)
2. Sweden: 2nd and beat Tanak (Rovanpera 3rd)
3. Mexico: 3rd beat Suninen, Evans (Rovanpera 5th)
4. Estonia: 2nd and beat Breen, Ogier, Evans (Rovanpera 5th)
5. Turkey: 3rd and beat Loeb (Rovanpera 4th)
6. Sardinia: 2nd and beat Neuville, Ogier, Evans (Rovanpera DNF)
7. Monza: 4th and beat Lappi, further was Sordo 3rd (Rovanpera 5th)

not exactly light names

[denkimi]

And like I've said, there's a more complex scoring system.

As an extreme example, if a team gets 1-2-3's in every rally, first driver wins every event, second driver finishes second and third driver third, the third driver scores 0 manufacturer points during the whole season. Has he performed bad?

And then in another scenario the first and second driver retire every second event so the third driver finishes second in every rally while first and second driver alternate winning the events. Now the third driver scores manufacturer points in every rally although the team score is equal to the first scenario. Did he do any better than in the first scenario?
It is indeed a confusing system. The more points the number one and two drivers score, the less points the nr3 can score. But also the less he has to score to secure the title.

[skarderud]

Would it be any point at all for Mikkelsen to rent a WRC from M-sport for Monza?
Can he gain anything?
Lets say he win at Monza, it's still no seats available.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[Mackie]

Can he? I mean, if Monza is in place of Japan, and is required on the same level. Is he not required to compete in WRC2 at Monza?

[TypeR]

too late for Mikkelsen I think. he spent all the effort and time(+ a lot of budget) driving R5 in WRC2 and ERC..


Can he? I mean, if Monza is in place of Japan, and is required on the same level. Is he not required to compete in WRC2 at Monza?

got the title already sitting in service in Spain :D

[Mackie]

If he did not compete in Japan (or Kenya), the Championship would not be valid the way it was first set up. So I believe he has to compete in Monza, in WRC2, to keep the Championship. Anybody who knows?

[abcrally]

I thought I was reading Silly Season 2022 but all here recently was that bulls*it why Toyota lost manufacturer title in 2020.

That title was lost because of clever tactics by Hyundai.

[abcrally]

Would it be any point at all for Mikkelsen to rent a WRC from M-sport for Monza?
Can he gain anything?
Lets say he win at Monza, it's still no seats available.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

No. He can't gain anything in Monza with Fiesta.
There will be no seat for Mikkelsen in Toyota or Hyundai. Not now or in the future IMO. Only option is Puma Rally1 but that needs his own budget.

[rallyfiend]

Can he? I mean, if Monza is in place of Japan, and is required on the same level. Is he not required to compete in WRC2 at Monza?

The need to do a non-europe event was for the team championship only, I believe.

not the drivers

[fredfush]

If he did not compete in Japan (or Kenya), the Championship would not be valid the way it was first set up. So I believe he has to compete in Monza, in WRC2, to keep the Championship. Anybody who knows?

WRC Art 6.4.3 shows '6 of the 7 rallies in which they were entered' so this should mean that he has to 'enter' Monza.

Note that under JWRC App VIII Art 3.2.2 it specifically says 'entered & started' rather than just 'entered' so maybe for WRC2 it only requires an entry.

[Andre Oliveira]

Loeb at Ford?

https://www.marca.com/motor/rallies/2021/10/19/616ea11522601d71668b45c0.html?fbclid=IwAR115tTZ6It qNVGqfqMTiD-4Sdllc0neIDYLG5ErhIarVtO8vznWAl3_DSM

[mknight]

too late for Mikkelsen I think. he spent all the effort and time(+ a lot of budget) driving R5 in WRC2 and ERC..


He didn't spend any budget.

Anyway something is wrong when he in Rally2 this year beats:
Breen (3x), Sordo (2x), Fourmaux (3x) and Solberg (2x) and wins two titles, yet they all get a seat and he doesn't.

[dimviii]

He didn't spend any budget.

Anyway something is wrong when he in Rally2 this year beats:
Breen (3x), Sordo (2x), Fourmaux (3x) and Solberg (2x) and wins two titles, yet they all get a seat and he doesn't.

some reason must be.Do you think any?

[mknight]

some reason must be.Do you think any?

Must be because whatever result he does you are disappointed. No drive without pleasing Greeks.

[dimviii]

Must be because whatever result he does you are disappointed. No drive without pleasing Greeks.

seems that except Greeks,he doesnt please Italians English,and Fin managers too.

[Eli]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loeb-tests-m-sports-2022-puma-in-spain/
Silly season continues.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Great to help develop the car and as a mentor for Fourmaux. But a comeback as a driver, I doubt it.

[AnttiL]

Wuorela suggesting Huttunen would be testing the Puma on Thursday

https://mobile.twitter.com/miikawuorela/status/1450522810980388871?s=21

[seb_sh]

Great to help develop the car and as a mentor for Fourmaux. But a comeback as a driver, I doubt it.

That's already a good + for MSport. Maybe he does a rally or two for fun.

About Mikkelsen it's weird that after VW he can't keep a proper factory seat. Even now he is still in the VW family. Is it a money thing?

[denkimi]

Great to help develop the car and as a mentor for Fourmaux. But a comeback as a driver, I doubt it.
Indeed. The man retired in 2012, that's 9 years ago.

He might still be a good driver, but he is no longer the one to challenge for the win.

[Andre Oliveira]

Huttunen?

https://scontent.fopo5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/fr/cp0/e15/q65/247275855_5009408645755189_907957192511797402_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ca434c&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=f1EkviIGnTYAX8tYmfs&_nc_oc=AQnt2SuGCCefY_MdIk3cN1IR0l-vigwW9nxnwSqyuPgw_yS_NIXh9tUuUI864OKC5zlyoJmQzqsnq 7JkNQaQ5wC1&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo5-1.fna&oh=f394554ff63caa83adc05bbb88f11edf&oe=6173DD67

[macebig]

So, Huttunen traded the i20 Rally for the Fiesta Rally 2 and the promise of a Puma Rally 1 opportunity... ?Kinda far fetched...

[er88]

Must be because whatever result he does you are disappointed. No drive without pleasing Greeks.Don't be silly. Mikkelsen has had *almost* 5yrs at championship winning teams, with great salary, and hasn't gotten anywhere near Ogier or Neuville in championship standings. He has proven emphatically that he is a level below. That cannot be denied.

He has also shown since 2018 he has either stagnated or is on the downturn. Unfortunately this season in wrc2/erc turned off team bosses even more (maybe for good).

Ideally Msport would've signed him alongside Breen and Fourmaux ( and that wouldve been much better than Greensmith), but clearly they dont think he is worth a little extra investment compared to Gus. I would have much rather seen Mikkelsen involved with Msport in whatever role, but you have to wonder/ or either accept Malcolm's viewpoint that he doesn't have a big enough upside - compared to Greensmiths money.

The likes of Breen etc also deserve the same chances Mikkelsen got throughout his career, and Breen is clearly on an upward trajectory. Fourmaux also has huge potential and has backing ....

[Mackie]

The thing is he was on an upward, in 2016. Then he used 2017 to get back into a new team. Problem was he did not gel with the Hyundai, especially on tarmac (ring a bell?). So he got screwed again.

What is often overlooked is that Mikkelsen is a man working for the team. I have followed his vlog on Youtube, and he has a very emphatic behaviour towards his team. He traveled by car to Catalunia to celebrate with the team, and when it was clear that he was going to win he went to some shops and bought plastic glasses and some champagne. Which he assembled and poured himself. Small things.

When he was ousted from Hyundai he had a contract. He could have tried to force his right to participate in Catalunia, but he said to gain the team (and probably his chances) he wouldn't do that. Adamo is ruthless, which some people like. I like team principals who stand by their drivers.

His approach to this year has been steady pace in a safe manner, probably something his team wants. A bit Ogier-like, not faster then what is needed. This isn't what he said at the start of the season, but it is what is wise. I believe a team would by happy to have him on their side, but it is not looking bright.

[mknight]

Look how Tanak stagnated in Hyundai, especially on tarmac where he is now regularly the slowest Hyundai. Right now he can at best get 4th in the championship. Brings some perspective.
Does that prove Tanak is a level below or that he is on the way down?

Before that in VW Mikkelsen was clearly on the way up, slowly compared to say Rovanpera, but he was. In Rally2 this year there was a clear change of approach after Sardinia and then a step up from Estonia onwards. Note the Dirtfish article saying he needs to step up and win rallies before Greece, since then he won all 3. So downward trajectory not so much , more like up and down. Note that he is same age as Breen and their number of starts in rallies is starting to become similar ad well.

Thing with Mikkelsen is that he never was a driver that wins many stages by large margins. It's always "steady pace", once he gets some gap he starts controlling it rather than pushing on. ( see Estonia this year, Greece, Fafe). For some this shows that he "barely" has the pace to win. "Mcrae/Meeke" style of winning one stage big then crashing on next is more popular, even by team bosses, just look at Solberg, Lukyanuk or even Fourmaux.

[EstWRC]

Look how Tanak stagnated in Hyundai, especially on tarmac where he is now regularly the slowest Hyundai. Right now he can at best get 4th in the championship. Brings some perspective.

you know very well why he is 4th in the championship but somehow you always forget these reasons. Put the 50 points to his score that he lost with certain wins in Portugal and Sardegna and he would be third the championship just behind Evans and not so far from Ogier.

Yes, stagnated on tarmac, with that i agree.

BTW Tänak got the same amount podiums + win with last years short season than Mikkelsen got with two full seasons in Hyundai. Brings some perspective.

[Tom K]

Wuorela suggesting Huttunen would be testing the Puma on Thursday

https://mobile.twitter.com/miikawuorela/status/1450522810980388871?s=21

Huttunen wrote in social media that he won't be in Hungary, so...

[AnttiL]

Huttunen wrote in social media that we won't be in Hungary, so...

https://twitter.com/huttunenracing/status/1450707588019113987?s=21

[Andre Oliveira]

https://scontent.fopo5-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/fr/cp0/e15/q65/247181007_5010531685642885_4948759184982792470_n.j pg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ca434c&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=8uy9qz8-PyIAX9jybc-&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo5-2.fna&oh=032a3f3212ed01fc70f398b5d9ce30e0&oe=6174186D

[Mackie]

you know very well why he is 4th in the championship but somehow you always forget these reasons. Put the 50 points to his score that he lost with certain wins in Portugal and Sardegna and he would be third the championship just behind Evans and not so far from Ogier.

Yes, stagnated on tarmac, with that i agree.

BTW Tänak got the same amount podiums + win with last years short season than Mikkelsen got with two full seasons in Hyundai. Brings some perspective.

When Mikkelsen doesn't feel the car does what it should, he backs off. Tänak tries to push trough. Sometimes he crashes because of it, some times he gets better results. Tänak did this after Mikkelsen was denied changes he wanted. Tänak is very vocal when things are bad, I wonder what he would have said if he had gotten the car Mikkelsen was driving in 2018. The perspective is not that clear, but it looks clear on paper. I think the Rally1 concept will suit Tänak better the WRC i20, and i think Neuville knows this.

[AnttiL]

Thing with Mikkelsen is that he never was a driver that wins many stages by large margins. It's always "steady pace", once he gets some gap he starts controlling it rather than pushing on. ( see Estonia this year, Greece, Fafe). For some this shows that he "barely" has the pace to win. "Mcrae/Meeke" style of winning one stage big then crashing on next is more popular, even by team bosses, just look at Solberg, Lukyanuk or even Fourmaux.

When Mikkelsen doesn't feel the car does what it should, he backs off. Tänak tries to push trough. Sometimes he crashes because of it, some times he gets better results. Tänak did this after Mikkelsen was denied changes he wanted. Tänak is very vocal when things are bad, I wonder what he would have said if he had gotten the car Mikkelsen was driving in 2018. The perspective is not that clear, but it looks clear on paper. I think the Rally1 concept will suit Tänak better the WRC i20, and i think Neuville knows this.

Mikkelsen also crashed. For example Australia 2017, Finland 2018 or Monte 2019.


Problem was he did not gel with the Hyundai, especially on tarmac (ring a bell?). So he got screwed again.

Mikkelsen was actually doing quite well in the Hyundai, especially on technical gravel. Instantly in his first three events he was leading Spain and Australia after first days. It was quite often technical problems or punctures ruining the rallies (like Argentina and Sardinia 2018, retired from lead). But in some rallies he was just lost and off the pace. All tarmac rallies, as well as Chile, Wales and Spain 2019.

Difficult to say why he's not getting a seat instead of others. Maybe team bosses don't see him as a future prospect or maybe he demands a higher salary than "future prospects".

Also it's wrong to bring someone like Fourmaux into the comparison, we haven't seen yet what he can do. And AFAIK Lukyanuk doesn't have a deal from any team boss, he's constantly gathering budget.

[Mackie]

Mikkelsen also crashed. For example Australia 2017, Finland 2018 or Monte 2019.

Mikkelsen was actually doing quite well in the Hyundai, especially on technical gravel. Instantly in his first three events he was leading Spain and Australia after first days. It was quite often technical problems or punctures ruining the rallies (like Argentina and Sardinia 2018, retired from lead). But in some rallies he was just lost and off the pace. All tarmac rallies, as well as Chile, Wales and Spain 2019.

Difficult to say why he's not getting a seat instead of others. Maybe team bosses don't see him as a future prospect or maybe he demands a higher salary than "future prospects".

Also it's wrong to bring someone like Fourmaux into the comparison, we haven't seen yet what he can do. And AFAIK Lukyanuk doesn't have a deal from any team boss, he's constantly gathering budget.

Mikkelsen crashes, and they are weird. He had an off in the Skôda this year coming out of a corner when the car suddenly twitches both ways. He ends up on his side, and can continue. But the roll cage has some how gotten to much damage. Other offs are are small in itself, but enough to rip off a tyre/suspension og puncture both tyres on one side... He is like a slower Ogier with sudden Meeke-moments, but the bad ones on a smaller scale.

[mknight]

you know very well why he is 4th in the championship but somehow you always forget these reasons. Put the 50 points to his score that he lost with certain wins in Portugal and Sardegna and he would be third the championship just behind Evans and not so far from Ogier.

Yes, stagnated on tarmac, with that i agree.

BTW Tänak got the same amount podiums + win with last years short season than Mikkelsen got with two full seasons in Hyundai. Brings some perspective.

Number of competetive teams (and drivers) in championship. After 2019 it went from 4 teams and 8-ish drivers to 2 teams and 4-5 drivers.



Mikkelsen was actually doing quite well in the Hyundai, especially on technical gravel. Instantly in his first three events he was leading Spain and Australia after first days. It was quite often technical problems or punctures ruining the rallies (like Argentina and Sardinia 2018, retired from lead). But in some rallies he was just lost and off the pace. All tarmac rallies, as well as Chile, Wales and Spain 2019.

You forgot retiring from 40s lead over Tanak in Turkey 2018 due to mechanics not doing their job in service (Neuville retired from lead on same rally due to that as well and mechanics got fired (from Nandan)).

On tarmac that point about not pushing (and crashing) stands well, only Monte 2019 doesn't fit. He had basically two bad non-tarmac rallies as you say. In that period Neuville had quite a few bad rallies in same car as well though, like Sardinia 2019. In fact as was mentioned, Mikkelsen got as many points as Neuville from the rallies he entered after getting kicked for Portugal (Sardinia, Finland, Germany, Turkey, GB), even though this run included 2 "bad" rallies and he explicitly wasn't allowed to push on any PS.

[mknight]

https://twitter.com/huttunenracing/status/1450707588019113987?s=21

Actually I am kind of happy about this.

Huttunen doing a "Suninen" on Hyundai after getting constantly ignored no matter results? But where to, it doesn't seem he has money.

"For free" in Fiesta Rally2? Doesn't sound like very good deal either.

[mknight]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/experience-like-loebs-can-only-benefit-m-sport-breen/

Breen basically repeats what we said here. That "one driver" team at MSport, just like Citroen was in 2017 might be quite risky.

Interestingly though Loeb only ever drove for Citroen, even though with 4 different cars.

[AnttiL]

Actually I am kind of happy about this.

Huttunen doing a "Suninen" on Hyundai after getting constantly ignored no matter results? But where to, it doesn't seem he has money.

"For free" in Fiesta Rally2? Doesn't sound like very good deal either.

Huttunen has had own sponsor decals in his car all the time

[rp]

Actually I am kind of happy about this.

Huttunen doing a "Suninen" on Hyundai after getting constantly ignored no matter results? But where to, it doesn't seem he has money.

"For free" in Fiesta Rally2? Doesn't sound like very good deal either.

Weird things, when Huttunen was aiming to drive in Hungary. Is it something that Adamo was so happy, when Solans drove to the finish and on the good level that wanted to see him in Hungary instead of Huttunen, who was so slow in Spain (Of course not willing to accept that there was a broken engine in Hyundai)...

The plan was that Huttunen will drive in Greece, but suddenly the entry was cancelled without the reason (a lack of i20 N Rally2 might be one). During these years we have seen that Adamo is not trusting Huttunen despite the fact that he has been almost the only driver to get good results behind the wheel of the i20 R5.

Maybe Grönholm and Huttunen are now completely fed up playing with Adamo anymore and the only way was a contact with M-Sport. Of course they have to pay, but is was not free at Hyundai also, so not very different situation.

Also M-Sport will definitely need top WRC2 driver to achieve at least some results with the Rally2 car next year. On tarmac it´s also possible and maybe Huttunen is able to develop car on gravel. With this situation it would be also possible that Jari could finally drive World Rally Car / Rally1 car in WRC event...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Mikkelsen has been around so long now and without really showing WRC rally-winning speed since the end of his VW days.

He's a nice guy but I'm not sure he still has the hunger to get to the top. He seems to be more of a social media star and you could say even with a bit of a playboy image.

[ictus]

Current generation World Rally Cars will be permitted to compete in next year’s World Rally Championship with a reduced power output
https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/modified-current-wrc-cars-set-to-be-eligible-for-2022-/6688263/

[seb_sh]

Mikkelsen has been around so long now and without really showing WRC rally-winning speed since the end of his VW days.

He's a nice guy but I'm not sure he still has the hunger to get to the top. He seems to be more of a social media star and you could say even with a bit of a playboy image.

He really missed the boat in 2017, for whatever reason. Right now he's in a weird spot where he's neither an up and coming young driver nor a proven top driver. Also remember that he has had quite a bit of experience at the top level so you could also consider him a "known quantity" by now. The real problem is probably not so much that others are chosen before Mikkelsen but that there are not enough WRC seats available.

[Mirek]

Current generation World Rally Cars will be permitted to compete in next year’s World Rally Championship with a reduced power output
https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/modified-current-wrc-cars-set-to-be-eligible-for-2022-/6688263/

36 mm restrictor means 1017 mm2 area. 33,7 mm restrictor means 892 mm2. That means the area is reduced to 88%. I can't see how they calculated the power loss to only 30 Hp with 12% less air. IMHO it must be more. That would also make sense because with only 30 Hp reduction the cars would definitely get in the fight with the new cars when driven by proper drivers and when having favourable conditions (road position, tyre selection, weather etc.). I don't think FIA wants that. In my opinion 30 Hp reduction would be too little to remove them from mixing with the new ones even if the new cars were supposed to be as fast as the current ones.

[ictus]

36 mm restrictor means 1017 mm2 area. 33,7 mm restrictor means 892 mm2. That means the area is reduced to 88%. I can't see how they calculated the power loss to only 30 Hp with 12% less air. IMHO it must be more. That would also make sense because with only 30 Hp reduction the cars would definitely get in the fight with the new cars when driven by proper drivers and when having favourable conditions (road position, tyre selection, weather etc.). I don't think FIA wants that. In my opinion 30 Hp reduction would be too little to remove them from mixing with the new ones even if the new cars were supposed to be as fast as the current ones.

Drivers who drove a factory car in the last 5 years are banned from using thease cars

[Mackie]

He really missed the boat in 2017, for whatever reason. Right now he's in a weird spot where he's neither an up and coming young driver nor a proven top driver. Also remember that he has had quite a bit of experience at the top level so you could also consider him a "known quantity" by now. The real problem is probably not so much that others are chosen before Mikkelsen but that there are not enough WRC seats available.

If we see Ford as the most viable chance Mikkelsen has for a seat, even Breen said it would be funny if he alone was supposed to be the experienced driver in the team besides Greensmith and Fourmaux. Mikkelsen has at least a bunch of experience from Skôda, Ford, VW, Citroën and Hyundai, and could function as a mentor together with Breen for Fourmaux (and Greensmith if shared cars). The other option would be Loeb.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The M-Sport Puma Rally1 car has been running for a while now and there has been no sign of Mikkelsen testing it...

[mknight]

The M-Sport Puma Rally1 car has been running for a while now and there has been no sign of Mikkelsen testing it...

If you want to go the speculative road he had 2 day test of new Pirelli tarmac tires using current Fiesta (Tuohinos) on Sardinia during the same days as MSport was testing Puma there before Greece. 2 days seemed kind of long for just new compound that will likely only do 2 rallies...

Anyway, I personally don't think he tested Puma then. But to keep your line of thinking there was no sign of Tanak testing a Hyundai before he signed for them either (to use the biggest driver move in latest years).

Still Mikkelsen just said one (him?) has to pay to drive at MSport and he doesn't want that. What is going on behind the scenes we won't know for a while. Often details on these kind of negotigations come out first 3-4 years later.

[macebig]

Huttunen has withdrawn from Hungary and replaced by Nil Solans. Seems like a move to Ford is pretty much confirmed. Him and Pajari for the M Sport run Fiesta Rally 2s next year.

[cali]

If you want to go the speculative road he had 2 day test of new Pirelli tarmac tires using current Fiesta (Tuohinos) on Sardinia during the same days as MSport was testing Puma there before Greece. 2 days seemed kind of long for just new compound that will likely only do 2 rallies...

Anyway, I personally don't think he tested Puma then. But to keep your line of thinking there was no sign of Tanak testing a Hyundai before he signed for them either (to use the biggest driver move in latest years).

Still Mikkelsen just said one (him?) has to pay to drive at MSport and he doesn't want that. What is going on behind the scenes we won't know for a while. Often details on these kind of negotigations come out first 3-4 years later.Märtin tested the i20 on behalf of Ott. Ott couldn't because he was contracted to TGR

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[KertR]

Märtin tested the i20 on behalf of Ott. Ott couldn't because he was contracted to TGR

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

Yeah, Märtin always does the contract like job for Tänak.

Still strange and annoying Tänak not getting used to Hyundai, first there were excuses that not enough time in the car, but now, still rubish driving and rookie mistakes. When there were good rallies where he could show his speed, technical issues took him down. Must be a karma because he left Toyota, what bring him the Title.

[AnttiL]

https://toyotagazooracing.com/challengeprogram_rally/release/2021/1029-01/

Katsuta to have a full 2022 Rally1 season. Aaron Johnston will be the permanent co-driver.

[TypeR]

seems like Barrit has pretty bad injury..
Don't think Taka dropped him just for co-driver change.. Dan is so much more experienced

[AnttiL]

To me it seems like he's would have been risking something continuing "temporarily" with Johnston for a while, because it would have resulted in another change, and another disruption. Now they can start building together from this point onwards.

[WRCStan]

https://toyotagazooracing.com/challengeprogram_rally/release/2021/1029-01/

Katsuta to have a full 2022 Rally1 season. Aaron Johnston will be the permanent co-driver.

Great to see Taka back. I'm interested by the new team... a second driver perhaps? This is silly season!

[AnttiL]

Great to see Taka back. I'm interested by the new team... a second driver perhaps? This is silly season!

Good call, I almost didn't notice it. It seems they are finally entering Katsuta in his own team so he can take points off their competitors.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://scontent.flis8-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/fr/cp0/e15/q65/251844337_5057287787633941_8477338170098535819_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ca434c&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=oTLjyGByHbkAX-LzdF1&_nc_ht=scontent.flis8-2.fna&oh=9cab19045c42c2b18a9327b38d20c178&oe=6187737B

Someone discover why Ott did’t come to Monza?
- He signed with Malcolm.

[Eli]

https://scontent.flis8-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/fr/cp0/e15/q65/251844337_5057287787633941_8477338170098535819_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ca434c&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=oTLjyGByHbkAX-LzdF1&_nc_ht=scontent.flis8-2.fna&oh=9cab19045c42c2b18a9327b38d20c178&oe=6187737B

Someone discover why Ott did’t come to Monza?
- He signed with Malcolm.

That would make it crazy season not silly season.

[seb_sh]

That would make it crazy season not silly season.

Mikkelsen back at Hyundai confirmed, you read it here first!

[skarderud]

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[skarderud]

Mikkelsen back at Hyundai confirmed, you read it here first!Now we're talking!;)

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[bandit12]

Mikkelsen back at Hyundai confirmed, you read it here first!

Wanna bet?

[seb_sh]

Wanna bet?

Wanna get the joke? :P

[Danny0405]

Updating a (quite) old topic but I’m not a huge fan of Toyota’s decision with Katsuta.
I do not say he should have be fired but giving him a full program with such a second half seems quite strange to me: at least, I would have given the Monte Carlo start to Lappi to adapt to the car and also because, even if I don’t think Lappi can be a title contender, he has proven to be quite consistent in the past.
And then, I would have decided in function of Lappi and Katsuta’s results.

[TypeR]

Taka = Japan
Toyoda = rally fan = Toyota= Japan
Toyota = Japan


They are still hoping to get the WRC event done in Japan..

[mknight]

All drivers aren't equal at Toyota, that's just how it is.
Japanese (Katsuta)
Finnish (remember 2017 team, now it goes to 2/3 again)
rest

[seb_sh]

Toyota pushes to have a Japanese driver in all their official teams. Each WEC car has a Japanese driver. Now Katsuta is clearly not good enough for the main team, but there will always be budget for a full season Japanese driver. They recently started a new junior program as well. I suspect there are big marketing opportunities in Japan by having a Japanese driver.

[mknight]

Well I am not saying it's bad. Specially since Katsuta is 4th car and not taking a drive from anyone and he clearly has some talent. Though I doubt he can be a champion he might win some rallies.

[seb_sh]

Well I am not saying it's bad. Specially since Katsuta is 4th car and not taking a drive from anyone and he clearly has some talent. Though I doubt he can be a champion he might win some rallies.

Indeed he has some good performances so he's not a wasted space. I think the strategy to make a junior team might help in the manufacturer title. Katsuta is capable of podiums on some rallies so should take some points away from Hyundai.

[pantealex]

Everyone knows that Lappi is faster than Katsuta.
but for B-team it´s Japanise driver or nothing, I prefer Japanise driver, better than nothing.


Also many others are faster than Greensmith/Loubet but who pays drives ...

[mknight]

How do you explain Makinen preferring Latvala over Ogier at end of 2016?

[denkimi]

How do you explain Makinen preferring Latvala over Ogier at end of 2016?
Because makinen is retarded.

[rp]

How do you explain Makinen preferring Latvala over Ogier at end of 2016?

What do you mean? Ogier was testing Yaris before any decision was made. He thought that the car is not ready and selected M-Sport.

[ouvreur]

What do you mean? Ogier was testing Yaris before any decision was made. He thought that the car is not ready and selected M-Sport.

Exactly. It wasn't Makinen's decision to make... and if both had been available, both would have ended up at Toyota.

[mknight]

It's common knowledge, also confirmed by Makinen that he didn't want Ogier and Japan insisted on making him an offer and letting him test.

So Makinen made sure Ogier wouldn't want to join. Letting him drive on the second ever test of the car on tarmac (and first ever on wet tarmac), rather than in Finland where the car was at its best.
Compare that with MSport that put Ogier on their private test track where they knew how to set the car up.

[AnttiL]

It's common knowledge, also confirmed by Makinen that he didn't want Ogier and Japan insisted on making him an offer and letting him test.

So Makinen made sure Ogier wouldn't want to join. Letting him drive on the second ever test of the car on tarmac (and first ever on wet tarmac), rather than in Finland where the car was at its best.
Compare that with MSport that put Ogier on their private test track where they knew how to set the car up.

You have to remember the talks at the time, everyone thought Toyota was just a village team and the car would hardly match R5's. Meanwhile M-Sport was known already for making the best cars when new regulations arrive. And Latvala has also said he made big changes to the car when he joined the team, to make it a winning car like it was in 2017.

It's also worth remembering that Toyota didn't aim for wins or titles in 2017 and they didn't expect to be so competitive. It would have been embarrassing for them to have Ogier struggle in their car, (kind of like Citroen in 2019). Meanwhile they were just looking for someone to develop the car and build up the action towards following years, and maybe they felt Latvala is better for communicating in the Finnish team.

But like always, we might never know.

[Rallyper]

Good points Antti.
One has to remember the times as the were then.
It´s always easier looking in the mirror.

[ouvreur]

It's also always easy to say "ah, I never wanted him anyway" when he's already signed for another team :laugh:

Incidentally, Ogier's first Fiesta test wasn't at Greystoke. Probably just as well, the story goes that after a couple of months running the mule around there, the roads were like driving on the moon...

[mknight]

....and maybe they felt Latvala is better for communicating in the Finnish team.



Back to the start.
Driver picks at Toyota:
1. Japanese
2. Finnish
3. rest

Definitely like this in 2016/17 and seems the same in 2021/2022. (Latvala didn't appear to be interested in for example Breen at all. Already in Portugal it was all about Lappi).

[AnttiL]

(Latvala didn't appear to be interested in for example Breen at all. Already in Portugal it was all about Lappi).

One of them has won a WRC event and one has not

[skarderud]

Edmonson as codriver for Oliver Solberg at monza.

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[AnttiL]

Edmonson as codriver for Oliver Solberg at monza.

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Question remains...who co-drives for Mikkelsen and Greensmith?

[Mirek]

You have to remember the talks at the time, everyone thought Toyota was just a village team and the car would hardly match R5's. Meanwhile M-Sport was known already for making the best cars when new regulations arrive. And Latvala has also said he made big changes to the car when he joined the team, to make it a winning car like it was in 2017.

It's also worth remembering that Toyota didn't aim for wins or titles in 2017 and they didn't expect to be so competitive. It would have been embarrassing for them to have Ogier struggle in their car, (kind of like Citroen in 2019). Meanwhile they were just looking for someone to develop the car and build up the action towards following years, and maybe they felt Latvala is better for communicating in the Finnish team.

But like always, we might never know.

Good points. Here is the video of Ogier testing the Yaris in 2017. At that time we discussed here how disappointing the car appearance was and even in the hindsight of today it still looks very raw and unconvincing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-WyZkZNmKs

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc2/huttunen-joins-m-sport-ford-for-season-finale/

Adding fuel to the fire of Huttunen possibly driving an M-Sport car next year.

[Danny0405]

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc2/huttunen-joins-m-sport-ford-for-season-finale/

Adding fuel to the fire of Huttunen possibly driving an M-Sport car next year.

Probably the best option as long as they don’t reach an agreement with Mikkelsen.
The «*swap*» Huttunen-Suninen may sound strange at the first place but in the end, probably the best for all: Huttunen was not really trusted at Hyundai and has some speed, he has the profil for M-Sport; Suninen was in a really difficult situation this season at M-Sport and Hyundai needs a top RC2 driver.
Sometimes, it is enough to give the push to launch again a career.


Good for Edmondson if he obtains a job in WRC with Solberg; his stint with Mikkelsen has proven he was not the issue about Greensmith. A little more surprised by the Greensmith-Andersson association but let’s see.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Yes it seems like a good 'swap' for both Suninen and Huttunen.

I thought Huttunen was a future champion since his days in ERC Junior with the Opel Team and maybe M.Wilson will still see this as a possibility. Jari wont find a better option for fulfilling his potential.

[Tauri_J]

In the latest betsafe podcast(published yesterday) Ott said he's fully focused on 2022 season, and confirms again that he'll miss Monza because of family.

[AnttiL]

In the latest betsafe podcast(published yesterday) Ott said he's fully focused on 2022 season, and confirms again that he'll miss Monza because of family.

I don't believe Tänak is going anywhere, but it's good to remind that they never tell in advance if they are leaving. In 2017 Tänak said directly to David Evans in the M-Sport event that he's not going anywhere and wrote in his blog that the rumors about him going to Toyota are stupid. And only weeks later the contract was revealed.

[Andre Oliveira]

What type or family affair can let you miss an event of your contract as top sportsman? I only can see death or birth of child. With that advance only birth…

Ok it is his personal life but the reason is very very strange.

[AnttiL]

What type or family affair can let you miss an event of your contract as top sportsman? I only can see death or birth of child. With that advance only birth…

Ok it is his personal life but the reason is very very strange.

Not even birth because babies can arrive earlier than due date.

[Tauri_J]

What type or family affair can let you miss an event of your contract as top sportsman? I only can see death or birth of child. With that advance only birth…

Ok it is his personal life but the reason is very very strange.

Everything is negotiable.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

M-Sport & Loeb still in talks...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/m-sport-loeb-wrc-2022-return-talks-ongoing/6792271/

[AndyRAC]

What type or family affair can let you miss an event of your contract as top sportsman? I only can see death or birth of child. With that advance only birth…

Ok it is his personal life but the reason is very very strange.

If he's said it's a 'family issue' then we must believe him....It really is none of our business to speculate on why/who/what....

[Andre Oliveira]

Greensmith confirmed full season in Puma Rally1.

[Andre Oliveira]

Rumours about Loubet in Puma Rally1 from Croatia.

[Mackie]

Rumours about Loubet in Puma Rally1 from Croatia.

If so, how do you see Fourmaux and Loeb working out? A bit cramped in one car, are they trying to run 4 cars?

[bandit12]

If so, how do you see Fourmaux and Loeb working out? A bit cramped in one car, are they trying to run 4 cars?
One Puma will be with three seats.

[Mackie]

One Puma will be with three seats.

Hm.

Fourmaux was hailed as a great, upcoming driver. Than Greensmith get a full year, and Fourmaux, Loeb and Loubet are supposed to share?

[becher]

Loubet as a customer?

[Andre Oliveira]

Breen
Greensmith
Fourmaux
Loeb/Huttunen

Loubet (custumer)

[Mackie]

So 5 cars?

[Andre Oliveira]

Loubet only from Croatia.

[mknight]

Hm.

Fourmaux was hailed as a great, upcoming driver. Than Greensmith get a full year, and Fourmaux, Loeb and Loubet are supposed to share?

It should be pretty clear to anyone that (extrernal) funding is the prime decider at MSport. They were trying to make an impression that they were aiming for results after Puma was announced, but almost everything they did after that shows that running a business is the prime goal.
Loeb might be getting a drive for free or even get some money (from Redbull) but that's because he brings a lot of ("free") PR.

[denkimi]

If so, how do you see Fourmaux and Loeb working out? A bit cramped in one car, are they trying to run 4 cars?
They will run 10 cars if they find enough people who want to pay for them.

[AndyRAC]

It should be pretty clear to anyone that (external) funding is the prime decider at M-Sport. They were trying to make an impression that they were aiming for results after Puma was announced, but almost everything they did after that shows that running a business is the prime goal.
Loeb might be getting a drive for free or even get some money (from Redbull) but that's because he brings a lot of ("free") PR.

Exactly! And also confirms that Ford aren't as committed as we hoped they would be; otherwise you don't need funding from your No 2 driver. It's rinse & repeat; so people need to stop the sympathy for M-Sport.....it's how they run their business. As for Gus, as yet, he's nowhere near a No 2 level; but now he is, he has to deliver those type of performances. And I hope he does.....

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Exactly! And also confirms that Ford aren't as committed as we hoped they would be; otherwise you don't need funding from your No 2 driver. It's rinse & repeat; so people need to stop the sympathy for M-Sport.....it's how they run their business. As for Gus, as yet, he's nowhere near a No 2 level; but now he is, he has to deliver those type of performances. And I hope he does.....

M-Sport is private team, not a full Ford factory-backed team, so they need to run with financial stability in mind.

They have also suffered in the pandemic with lower car sales, parts sales and servicing earnings.

They have signed the best available driver, Breen, who has impressed in WRC this year, and who they are able to afford.

The 2022 Puma isnt going to be cheap to make and buy and even more to run than the WRC cars. Someone has to pay if its not Ford and that's the driver and their family or sponsors.

[WRCStan]

so people need to stop the sympathy for M-Sport.....it's how they run their business.

What do you mean by this?

[TypeR]

What do you mean by this?
They are btthurt that mr Mikkelsen, who spent the season driving with R5 everywhere, didn't get the seat and huge salary from Malcolm and Ford :)

Can there be something that teams don't like about him/his team..?
Otherwise I don't see why isn't signed..
Maybe should have shown speed in a WRC car this season..

[Franky]

It's not about Mikkelsen. M-Sport usually gets the underdog treatment and the love with it. If M-Sport doesn't perform, it's because of their own choices. Money first, success somewhere further down the list.

[skarderud]

On a other hand, it is not good for a world championship if the runner up champion cannot get a seat in the topclass for free, whatever his name and size of wallet is.
Here FIA has not done theire job to attract more interest.

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[AndyRAC]

M-Sport is private team, not a full Ford factory-backed team, so they need to run with financial stability in mind.

They have also suffered in the pandemic with lower car sales, parts sales and servicing earnings.

They have signed the best available driver, Breen, who has impressed in WRC this year, and who they are able to afford.

The 2022 Puma isnt going to be cheap to make and buy and even more to run than the WRC cars. Someone has to pay if its not Ford and that's the driver and their family or sponsors.

Eddie, yes we know all this. It's their choice how they operate, that is their business model. They've proven they can run successful circuit racing cars/teams - why not go down that avenue with a manufacturer? They want to stay in rallying, even without full factory backing........
They do a great job, but I just find the 'plucky underdog' a bit tiresome.

[WRCStan]

On a other hand, it is not good for a world championship if the runner up champion cannot get a seat in the topclass for free, whatever his name and size of wallet is.

If it was free we'd all be doing it.


Here FIA has not done theire job to attract more interest.

Much better conversation to have than having a pop at those who invest into the sport. But there's not much to say that hasn't been said. Manufacturers and sponsors just don't want to play.

[WRCStan]

They are btthurt that mr Mikkelsen, who spent the season driving with R5 everywhere, didn't get the seat and huge salary from Malcolm and Ford :)

Can there be something that teams don't like about him/his team..?
Otherwise I don't see why isn't signed..
Maybe should have shown speed in a WRC car this season..

So in your opinion if Mikkelsen had paid for a World car and all being well he may have been able to prove to M-Sport that he was worth what he was paying for? I suppose then people could attack him for using 'daddy's money' and 'taking up a seat'.

You don't have to wave a flag for anybody but it's absurd and unjust to attack people who make things happen. This sport isn't profitable, there's no financial reward. Anybody who continues to attack the teams and drivers who choose to do this sport for either not taking on debt or spending more wealth to go maximum attack and win rallies or championships must be out there having a go themselves.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Eddie, yes we know all this. It's their choice how they operate, that is their business model. They've proven they can run successful circuit racing cars/teams - why not go down that avenue with a manufacturer? They want to stay in rallying, even without full factory backing........
They do a great job, but I just find the 'plucky underdog' a bit tiresome.

M-Sport splashed their own cash on paying Ogier when he became available, so they dont always stick with that 'business model'.

Since then the pandemic hit them, Ford hasnt returned and the other top drivers have contracts with the manu teams of Hyundai & Toyota. Breen is the best available and they have paid out to get him.

If you can do better then start a team.

[seb_sh]

Again this discussion about MSport's money. Would you rather they go bankrupt? It's the FIA/organizer/promoter who are to blame for that lack of teams.

[AnttiL]

It's the FIA/organizer/promoter who are to blame for that lack of teams.

Or maybe the car manufacturers because they decide not invest in this kind of marketing? Or maybe we can blame the world that has changed from the 80's when rallying was still cool?

[Mirek]

Or maybe the car manufacturers because they decide not invest in this kind of marketing? Or maybe we can blame the world that has changed from the 80's when rallying was still cool?

It's no longer politically correct to promote motorsport using combustion engines. It's not only about talking heads and noisy activists but also about money. Emission allowances, the invisible but existing issues to get money from banks for politically incorrect projects etc.

[mknight]

Or maybe the car manufacturers because they decide not invest in this kind of marketing? Or maybe we can blame the world that has changed from the 80's when rallying was still cool?

Manus are more likely to invest in the cars they want to promote/sell. (without going into the reasons why a particular type is promoted).

For most manus that is now electric, with hybrids beeing a "temporary" solution.

Citroen wanted hybrids 2 years ago, VW basically even earlier.

So you can blame FIA for staying too long with current manu wishes instead of aiming for new ones.
On the other hand the move to hybrids and electric accelerated in last 2 years. So while it looked ok to keep current cars after 2020 when it was decided in 2018 (I think). It looked like a bad decision basically already at start of 2020.

Rallying should actually work quite well for promoting reliability/range/charging of EVs towards the typical anti-EV crowd (" it will catch fire all the time", "charging takes ages", " no range to do a stage" ...blah blah...).

As to the typical comments about EV marketing not promoting "sporty" driving... even VW now started own sports brand with only hybrid and EVs (Cupra), not to mention GTX versions of the ID family, and RS for Skoda Enyaq. Ford even named the car for Mustang and Tesla is fighting with Porsche for Nurbugring laptimes.

[Mirek]

Manus are more likely to invest in the cars they want to promote/sell. (without going into the reasons why a particular type is promoted).

For most manus that is now electric, with hybrids beeing a "temporary" solution.

Citroen wanted hybrids 2 years ago, VW basically even earlier.

So you can blame FIA for staying too long with current manu wishes instead of aiming for new ones.
On the other hand the move to hybrids and electric accelerated in last 2 years. So while it looked ok to keep current cars after 2020 when it wad decided in 2018 (I think). It looked like a bad decision basically already at start of 2020.

You have to take into account that electric/hybrid philosophy is to be green and to save energy - not to waste it in racing. That means that there is rather small chance that manufacturers of electric/hybrid cars would be attracted by a motorsport running through forests and wild nature because that goes against the whole thing promotion. Even if the sport went all electric (which is atm technically hardly possible) we would probably have the same teams involved minus M-Sport.

[mknight]

You have to take into account that electric/hybrid philosophy is to be green and to save energy - not to waste it in racing. That means that there is rather small chance that manufacturers of electric/hybrid cars would be attracted by a motorsport running through forests and wild nature because that goes against the whole thing promotion.

That's your usuall comment, and it's wrong. See the long list of sporty cars getting promoted by EV manus in my post.

Also see Extreme-E, they do a whole series that promotes sustainability by running EVs in wild nature.
I guess the message is "you can have fun without running on dead dinosaurus".

[AnttiL]

I think you are both partly correct. It's increasingly difficult to get any kind of sponsorship for motorsports, but if the car manufacturers are using something to promote their products in motorsports, it's EV's.

[Mirek]

That's your usuall comment, and it's wrong.

The thing is that we were discussing what if scenario which by simple logic means that we were giving our opinions. Nothing more and nothing less. Neither one was correct or wrong because the subject we discussed was purely hypothetical. So keep your opinion, I will keep mine. For me it's perfectly ok.

[AndyRAC]

Attracting car manufacturers doesn't seem to be a problem for other series........

There is obviously an issue with the sport of rallying, as to why they're not joining. Nobody wants to ask why....

[RS]

This thread has gone somewhat off-topic, but anyone know if there is somewhere in the world where the powerstage is shown on free-to-air TV?

That would be a good ambition for the WRC promoter in my opinion. It’s a good and exciting format for TV and could be a good way to hook more people in to paying for All-Live.

[becher]

In Austria you can watch it on Servus TV (Uncle Red Bulls influencer TV station)

[WRCStan]

Attracting car manufacturers doesn't seem to be a problem for other series........

I've just looked at WEC, WTCR, F1, the picture isn't pretty. Scrap the idea of having only the manufacturer homologate and run the car is a good start.

Do manufacturers in Extreme E and Formula E anything but sponsorship? It maybe ironic but I don't think Extreme E is sustainable.

[AndyRAC]

You need to look again; WEC has new regs in 2022, and 2023 sees the 100 year anniversary of Le Mans; currently only Toyota, however Peugeot, Glickenhaus, Alpine, then Porsche, Audi, Ferrari will join. How long they stay is another matter - but they've all taken the plunge.

For the WRC, 4-5 manufacturers is the ideal number, with 3-4 cars per team, plus affordable cars for privateers; so you get 15-20 top class R1 cars. Is that really too much to ask? If it is, then there's a problem with the new rules/regs.

Put it this way, I was far more optimistic at the start of 1997, than I will be next year.

[seb_sh]

Like Andy said WEC is having a big turnaround after the previous regulations became unattractive (but even those had some glory years). The full list of manufacturers joining is as follows:
2022: Toyota, Glickenhaus, Peugeot, Alpine (using old car)
2023: all from 2022 except Alpine plus: Ferrari, ByKolles, Porsche, Audi, Cadillac, BMW, Acura/Honda (BMW and Acura probably only in North America)
2024: Lamborghini, Alpine (new car)

WTCR: Hyundai, Lynk & Co, Honda, Cupra, Audi (also TCR cars racing competitively in other championships or previously in WTCR are available from: Renault, VW, Lada, Opel, Alfa Romeo, Peugeot)

F1: Recently introduced budget cap regulations and change of commercial approach means that teams are not pruely a money black hole, in fact the Mercedes team was already profitable since last year. Also new engine regulations in 2026 made so it's easier for new manufacturers to join.

I would like to add GT3, created when GT1 racing was dying, over the years has had about 50 models from about 20 manufacturers and today hase some of the most interesting endurance races with multiple teams/cars as potential winners and a healthy private team entry.


In my opinion rallying organisers and promoters have been making mistakes since the early 2000's, are always on the back foot, reacting and being late to the party. The current WRC2 regulations are a perfect example of a missed opportunity due to idiotic rules. The manufacturers can be fickle yes but the blame is mostly on WRC not the teams.

[RS]

Mikkelsen with Toksport in Monte and likely all of next year:

https://dirtfish.com/archive/mikkelsen-expects-to-defend-wrc2-title-next-season/

[AndyRAC]

Like Andy said WEC is having a big turnaround after the previous regulations became unattractive (but even those had some glory years). The full list of manufacturers joining is as follows:
2022: Toyota, Glickenhaus, Peugeot, Alpine (using old car)
2023: all from 2022 except Alpine plus: Ferrari, ByKolles, Porsche, Audi, Cadillac, BMW, Acura/Honda (BMW and Acura probably only in North America)
2024: Lamborghini, Alpine (new car)

WTCR: Hyundai, Lynk & Co, Honda, Cupra, Audi (also TCR cars racing competitively in other championships or previously in WTCR are available from: Renault, VW, Lada, Opel, Alfa Romeo, Peugeot)

F1: Recently introduced budget cap regulations and change of commercial approach means that teams are not pruely a money black hole, in fact the Mercedes team was already profitable since last year. Also new engine regulations in 2026 made so it's easier for new manufacturers to join.

I would like to add GT3, created when GT1 racing was dying, over the years has had about 50 models from about 20 manufacturers and today hase some of the most interesting endurance races with multiple teams/cars as potential winners and a healthy private team entry.


In my opinion rallying organisers and promoters have been making mistakes since the early 2000's, are always on the back foot, reacting and being late to the party. The current WRC2 regulations are a perfect example of a missed opportunity due to idiotic rules. The manufacturers can be fickle yes but the blame is mostly on WRC not the teams.

Nail on head!! GT3 is probably the best motorsport around; great races, cars, drivers, series, etc Consistently delivers entertainment.

As for rallying, I've consistently said that they (the WRC) continually make the wrong choices - and never learn.

[Franky]

But the luxury other championships have is that majority of the brands are premium or luxury. If you think of the cars in rallying, they are representing the lower price end of road cars.

In public image perspective, it reminds me of this meme that surfaced after Gumball3000 went through Estonia.

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aNe60q0_700bwp_v1.webp

[mknight]

Mikkelsen with Toksport in Monte and likely all of next year:

https://dirtfish.com/archive/mikkelsen-expects-to-defend-wrc2-title-next-season/

He said he doesn't want to pay to drive at MSport previously.

Maybe it's also that he doesn't want to use a lot of money "blind" without seeing the car performance. (See how paying for drive worked for Suninen this year).

If Puma is good he will then maybe pay for 2-3 drives on the rounds he doesn't do WRC2.

[WRCStan]

I don't follow those championships, forgive me I'm just trying to learn not argue with anyone - is mentioning GT3 the same as saying there is Peugeot, Proton, Renault, Skoda, VW, Abarth in non-Rally1 rally?

How many are actually building their own cars too? I see manufacturers in Extreme-E and Formula-E who are just sponsoring teams who fabricate a few chassis. Mercedes will make a buck out of the other non-manufacturers on the grid they don't own. If you'd like more teams like 2C Competition, fair enough.

It's that muddy conversation again: manufacturers, manufacturer teams, constructors, independent teams, privateers and the interests and incentives of each.

[seb_sh]

I don't follow those championships, forgive me I'm just trying to learn not argue with anyone - is mentioning GT3 the same as saying there is Peugeot, Proton, Renault, Skoda, VW, Abarth in non-Rally1 rally?

How many are actually building their own cars too? I see manufacturers in Extreme-E and Formula-E who are just sponsoring teams who fabricate a few chassis. Mercedes will make a buck out of the other non-manufacturers on the grid they don't own. If you'd like more teams like 2C Competition, fair enough.

It's that muddy conversation again: manufacturers, manufacturer teams, constructors, independent teams, privateers and the interests and incentives of each.

No worries. GT3 is designed as a customer category. The manufacturer or an approved preparation company designs and buillds the car. The cars are balanced by the various championships so in theory you can be competitive with any car (not perfect but there are usually many different makes fighting for wins). No full works teams allowed altough most manufacturers have some semi-works teams. So I guess it would be similar to Rally2.

[focus206]

As mentioned, GT3 *could* be considered equivalent to Rally2 in rallying (with GTE category being equivalent to Rally1), but it's worth mentioning that GT3 has its own championships and prestigious races in which GTE doesn't race (like Spa 24h or Nurburgring 24h) and it's in a much healthier state than GTE, while being few seconds per lap slower.
I personally like GT3 much more, huge fields of cars, great racing and sensible BoP (as opposed to GTE or WTCR, in which a certain car model could be far ahead everyone else in one race and the slowest car in the next).

[AnttiL]

https://twitter.com/MSportLtd/status/1462832746276003842

Greensmith, Andersson, Fourmaux and Coria visiting Sparco for measurements for 2022 seats...

[Eli]

https://twitter.com/MSportLtd/status/1462832746276003842

Greensmith, Andersson, Fourmaux and Coria visiting Sparco for measurements for 2022 seats...

Well considering it was just announced on the eve of the rally Greensmith will continue with M-Sport for 2022, and comments earlier in the season that they want Fourmaux with them for the future; does this really come as a surprise?

[WRCStan]

Still doesn't underline Fourmaux for Rally1, if it's the case then why not publish it.

[mknight]

Still doesn't underline Fourmaux for Rally1, if it's the case then why not publish it.

Probably haggling about money (from FFSA/Redbull) vs number of starts.

[abcrally]

Still doesn't underline Fourmaux for Rally1, if it's the case then why not publish it.

Interesting way to publish one driver at a time. Sure they get more attention to do it one by one.

[AnttiL]

Well considering it was just announced on the eve of the rally Greensmith will continue with M-Sport for 2022, and comments earlier in the season that they want Fourmaux with them for the future; does this really come as a surprise?

The tweet was deleted after my retweet and a new version was posted. Now it doesn’t say anymore ”measurements for 2022”.

Also Jonas Andersson’s future with Gus has not been published yet.

[dimviii]

Sébastien Ogier
@SebOgier
Sunday was the end of an important chapter in our careers and our lives. It's hard to find the words after such a strong emotion, but above all I owe a big thank you to Julien

http://media.sebastien-ogier.com/en/a-climactic-finale-for-sebastien-ogier-and-julien-ingrassia.html

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Fourmaux hopes Loeb signs...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fourmaux-hopes-loeb-signs-for-m-sport-in-2022/

[seb_sh]

On a positive note it looks like we will have 9-11 rally1 cars in the first part of the year and correct me if I'm wrong but all 3 team principals have said extra cars are possible in the second half of 2022. 12-15 rally 1 cars on a rally would be quite decent

[the sniper]

At least 12 cars should be the target, that'd be decent. 3 + 2 cars for each manufacturer, with main and 'junior' teams, would be the ideal situation.

[steve.mandzij]

It's a good number for 3 manufacturers but it remains to be seen how this continues into the new era. 2017 cars started off strong and finished a manufacturer less. I wouldn't doubt the fact that it's a new era skewing the numbers.

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