Pirelli tyres

[Sulland]

How are the Pirelli rally tyres proving themselves so far?

Do we need 3 gravel hadnesses for the drivers to choose from?

[Sulland]

Why not have 4 hardmesses in both asphalt and graveltyres.
Extra soft, Soft, Medium and Hard.

This will make choices harder for drivers, some will be better at choosing the right one for them at different sufaces, length of ss, temps, and so on.
We will see more differences from teams and drivers during a rally, so more changes in top 10 every day.

[Mirek]

Why not having twenty like fifteen years ago?

It's clearly meant to reduce cost. Four different tyre compounds are twice more than two. You need to produce, carry and pay twice more.

[mknight]

Why not have 4 hardmesses in both asphalt and graveltyres.
Extra soft, Soft, Medium and Hard.

This will make choices harder for drivers, some will be better at choosing the right one for them at different sufaces, length of ss, temps, and so on.
We will see more differences from teams and drivers during a rally, so more changes in top 10 every day.

To make the choice matter there needs to be a large step between the tires. I am not sure that's easily done for a rally stage that is always a mixed surface. Last 2,5 years with Michelin the 3 gravel compounds seemed to make the choice much easier cause even if people picked wrong the difference wasn't so big.

[ictus]

there is no need for so many compounds for gravel. Sometimes you can use the same compound on dry and wet.

[JRodrigues]

https://press.pirelli.com/pirelli-scorpion-tyres-pass-the-tough-test-of-rally-portugal/

A somewhat delusional report after this rally


PIRELLI’S LATEST SCORPION GRAVEL TYRES ENSURE RELIABILITY AND PERFORMANCE EVEN IN EXTREME CONDITIONS
FRIDAY’S ROUGH STAGES CHALLENGE THE TYRE STRUCTURE, LOW GRIP OVER THE WEEKEND TESTS THE HARD AND SOFT COMPOUNDS
ANOTHER NEW CHALLENGE AWAITS THE SCORPION ON THE NEXT ROUND IN SARDINIA, IN HIGHER TEMPERATURES ON DRY GRAVEL.


Pirelli’s new Scorpion KX WRC tyres for the latest hybrid Rally1 cars, an evolution of the previous gravel product, had a positive debut on Rally Portugal. Both the hard and soft versions proved reliable in all conditions, on a rally where the first day in particular proved to be tougher than expected. On Friday afternoon, the rocky stages were practically destroyed after the first passage of around 100 cars: making what was already a tricky event almost impassable. Sandy and slippery surfaces with variable weather conditions, including rain, characterised the remaining two days.

On Saturday the challenge lay in the contrast between slippery stages, which needed the soft tyre, and long stages such as Amarante (repeated in the afternoon) that required the hard. This gave rise to a wide variety of strategies in which it sometimes paid to take a calculated risk: particularly for drivers who had chosen the hard Scorpion HA compound. On a rainy Sunday, the soft version of the Scorpion was the tyre to have, ensuring performance and reliability throughout all the stages.

Tyre strategy and management was decisive to the outcome, with Toyota driver Kalle Rovanpera winning from team mate Elfyn Evans following a tight battle.

Terenzio Testoni, Pirelli Rally Activity Manager, said: “We learn something new from every event and set of circumstances. What we take home from Portugal is confirmation that our new tyres can face the most extreme and unexpected conditions, such as those on Friday: the longest and most challenging day of the rally, where we saw numerous incidents – just as could be expected with these road conditions. This comes as no surprise, as it is all part of the sport. Now our new Scorpions face their next big test on abrasive gravel in Sardinia in just two weeks, where we can expect higher temperatures and more stable weather. ”

Citroen’s Yohan Rossel won RC2. In the WRC Junior category, victory went to Finland’s Sami Pajari. Two one-make series from Toyota and Peugeot also competed on Rally Portugal this weekend, equipped with Pirelli tyres.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So the two fastest guys, Rovanpera and Evans, had no punctures in Portugal. Were they lucky or just drove better to avoid them ?

With the Pirelli tyres, do they actually puncture more, as in getting holed by stones... or are they more 'coming off the rim' (and often due to wheel damage) ?

[EstWRC]

what i have noticed that Ogier and Tänak have more punctures since Pirelli came

at least i dont remember them having so often with Michelin, especially Ogier

[mknight]

What I have noticed is that everytime there is a puncture with Pirelli it's "Pirellis fault" and nobody ever hits anything. (FX even made fun of how rallydrivers never hit anything, even when they have a wheel missing).

When there were punctures with Michelin (say Turkey 2020, Toyotas in 2019), the roads, FIA, or rims were to blame, with Pirelli it's always the producer.

[EstWRC]

Toyota admitted themselves that it was the rims fault back in the day

and funny how everybody brings up Turkey 2020 but nothing else from the past

[mknight]

Yep when Tanak and Latvala cut as the only two top drivers in Corsica and get a puncture it's the fault of the rim.
(Meeke and others had "don't cut" and Latvala even said it at the end that he shouldn't have cut).

EDIT: Btw. Evans in Fiesta lost the win due to puncture on PS there. But yeah Toyota did some rim redesign.

Anyway besides trolling...

Turkey 2020 is the best comparison cause the Michelin tire was used for ages, yet "all" drivers got a puncture in the stage.

I think last year Antti showed some stats comparing punctures on Michelin and Pirelli with 2017+ cars and it was the same.

Sure, maybe with Rally1 there are more punctures, but it's also a different car with much more hp and more weight. So following the previous logic we should blame FIA right?

[doubled1978]

Maybe someone can tell me, but with a control tyre why do they not go back to using the mousse?
Surely it would make more sense than competing against themselves and getting bad press.

That said some of the guys taking only 5 tyres on Friday afternoon was a plain stupid.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/wrc-drivers-call-for-improved-pirelli-rubber-after-portugal-punctures/10310630/

[flat_right]

Let's do a quick + and -

Mousse tyres
+ Basically no punctures! Sometimes crews even don't know if they had one.
+ Drives can battle to the end (Ogier in Monte 2022, Ott tens of times throughout his career etc)
+ Because of intense battles, better publicity for the whole WRC
+ Because of few punctures, better publicity for tyre manufacturer
+ Improved safety for crews and also for spectators (going out because of tyre failure)
+ Softer tyre compounds = better grip, improved speed through the corners = more spectacular
+ Can carry only one spare = less fuel consumption = better for the environment
+ No bodywork damages because of tyres teared to rags destroying cars

- Increased cost

How to save costs?
> Maybe use them only for rough rallies like Greece, Turkey, Sardegna, Portugal... for smoother tarmac and gravel events let's use regular tyres
> Why do we need to use two compounds? Just use one compound and I think already this saves a lot of money (making tyres + transportation). No one ever knows what you have under the car.

[TypeR]

Weird to talk about increased costs.. when teams spend tens of millions (incl 1mil eur cars) to compete and win rallies..

multiple ,,out of nowhere'' punctures cost teams more(parts and point wise) than some mousse.
If not damaged, could be used again?

[doubled1978]

Well yeah, I sort of understood when it was a competition between tyre brands to control the cost etc. but the technology already exists and would reduce the negative press, and stop the punctures having a big influence on the result.
Makes no sense to me that it isn’t back in use.

[pantealex]

Tyre strategy is part of rallying, so 2 different compounds is needed.

with mousse tyres we would see much more anticutting poles...

[AnttiL]

Tyre strategy is part of rallying, so 2 different compounds is needed.

with mousse tyres we would see much more anticutting poles...

with mousse tyres we would see much more cut up roads in the rough rallies, seeing more punctures in WRC2 and WRC3/JWRC (assuming they would not be able to use mousse)

[Sulland]

What was the cost of a mousse tyre back when it was in use?

What would you guess the price would be today?

[focus206]

Pirelli is not the only tyre manufacturer being criticized in motorsport in these days: the two WTCR (the World Touring Car Cup) races on the Nurburgring Nordschleife were cancelled today after numerous punctures of Goodyear tyres in practice and qualifying.
I wouldn't expect such poor performances by well estabilished tyre manufacturers such as Pirelli or Goodyear, I don't get it...

[dimviii]

I don't get it...

why? ''it can happen also at the best families'' we use to say in Greece.
You could duy a brand new porsche gt3 rs and have total engine failure,or a new bmw m5.
a new gtr and have a transmission failure . It had happened at 100-200k euro new machinery.
Why not at a tyre of 300 euro?

[focus206]

why? ''it can happen also at the best families'' we use to say in Greece.
You could duy a brand new porsche gt3 rs and have total engine failure,or a new bmw m5.
a new gtr and have a transmission failure . It had happened at 100-200k euro new machinery.
Why not at a tyre of 300 euro?

No doubt, there's no perfect brand/manufacturer. But when it becomes a regular thing I start to worry. I'm positive that in WRC many times drivers are using Pirelli as a scapegoat excuse for their faults, but it seems to be increasing. Are drivers just becoming more and more reckless?
As for Goodyear, their failure was so catastrophic that they had to cancel 2 world championship races with multiple champion Yvan Muller saying "I don't want to die". Is it really that easy to mess up tyres? Last year, they had no problems with Goodyear in Nordschleife...

[WRCStan]

You remind me of the 2005 USA GP where Michelin couldn't guarantee their tyres would last and all their customer teams withdrew leaving just 6 cars to start. So even Michelin have been there back in the day.

[AndyRAC]

Pirelli is not the only tyre manufacturer being criticized in motorsport in these days: the two WTCR (the World Touring Car Cup) races on the Nurburgring Nordschleife were cancelled today after numerous punctures of Goodyear tyres in practice and qualifying.
I wouldn't expect such poor performances by well estabilished tyre manufacturers such as Pirelli or Goodyear, I don't get it...

Here's the strange thing; the Hyundai TCR cars racing in the N24, are using those same tyres - and will do 8/9 lap stints on them. It seems it's more a set up issue with the car than a tyre issue.

[focus206]

Here's the strange thing; the Hyundai TCR cars racing in the N24, are using those same tyres - and will do 8/9 lap stints on them. It seems it's more a set up issue with the car than a tyre issue.

I was thinking that it's strange as well. Are we sure it's the same spec Goodyear tyre?
Honda and Lynk & Co were the ones who protested the unsafe Goodyear tyres, while Hyundai didn't seem to have problems. But Goodyear itself seemed to admit that it "couldn't guarantee safety" in the press release.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

How come that in all the testing Pirelli didnt have lots of punctures or tyres being knocked off the rim ? Was their gravel testing in Sardinia not rough enough ? Or were the C3 WRC wheels different in some way ?

[dimviii]

But when it becomes a regular thing I start to worry. I'm positive that in WRC many times drivers are using Pirelli as a scapegoat excuse for their faults, but it seems to be increasing.

its not a regular thing,and its not increasing,Punctures at Portugal,were most at very hard/destroyed(according to drivers) stages at Friday second pass. See how many punctures were at Saturday Sunday.

[wyler]

How come that in all the testing Pirelli didnt have lots of punctures or tyres being knocked off the rim ? Was their gravel testing in Sardinia not rough enough ? Or were the C3 WRC wheels different in some way ?

i definitely think the car was different. i recall we discussed here a bit, the discussion was: a "dismissed" car is really a good choice to test for the future?

[AnttiL]

I can't see how the test car made a difference that much. Hopefully they ran the C3 with more weight.

And I repeat, we had lots of punctures on that mega rough stage in Turkey 2020 on Michelins, and we've had punctures in the past. I remember three WRC drivers having a puncture on the same stage in Sardinia 2017.

[wyler]

I can't see how the test car made a difference that much. Hopefully they ran the C3 with more weight.

And I repeat, we had lots of punctures on that mega rough stage in Turkey 2020 on Michelins, and we've had punctures in the past. I remember three WRC drivers having a puncture on the same stage in Sardinia 2017.

just saying different car stresses tires differently, i would just use the top-spec to test, not a dismisses one.
then it's definitely true that there are other races and other brands with lots of punctures, but the amount of pirelli tires knocked out of the rim is something odd, at least to my memory...nothing to say about broken rim or cut tires.

[AnttiL]

just saying different car stresses tires differently, i would just use the top-spec to test, not a dismisses one.

I would understand your concern if they had tested with a Rally2 car or with a 2016 WRC, but C3 WRC is not that different to the others. At least when it comes to tyre damage. The car type would likely mostly affect tyre wear, I'd say.

[mknight]

I can't see how the test car made a difference that much. Hopefully they ran the C3 with more weight.



Afaik Pirelli only tested with C3 WRC in 2020 for the "2017 WRC" spec cars. Those tires were then run in 2021. No C3 WRC tests after 2020 (car sold to Hungary (Butor) with all parts).
There were two additional tests in 2021 with Fiesta WRC (both gravel (between Portugal and Sardinia) and tarmac (before Greece - for Catalunya)), but they also weren't aimed at Rally1 but on improvement for that year.


"Rally1 tests" were only done with Rally1 machines and drivers from the teams and only at end of 2021.

[wyler]

Afaik Pirelli only tested with C3 WRC in 2020 for the "2017 WRC" spec cars. Those tires were then run in 2021. No C3 WRC tests after 2020 (car sold to Hungary (Butor) with all parts).
There were two additional tests in 2021 with Fiesta WRC (both gravel (between Portugal and Sardinia) and tarmac (before Greece - for Catalunya)), but they also weren't aimed at Rally1 but on improvement for that year.


"Rally1 tests" were only done with Rally1 machines and drivers from the teams and only at end of 2021.

so this must be wrong...
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/pirelli-to-start-wrc-tyre-testing-next-month/

10 jun '20
"Pirelli will begin testing Rally1-specification tires to be used on its 2021 full-time World Rally Championship return next month."

or, we back to the point that rally1 tires were developed and tested on '17 car spec, then "adapted" pre-2022 when rally1 car appeared.

[mknight]

Terminology confusion.
The article itself says that Pirelli will supply "Rally1" tires starting 2021. Rally1 in this case means top category running "WRC2017" spec cars.
Clearly they couldn't start testing "Rally1" spec tires in mid of 2020 when the regs were nowhere near finished.

There was an article from September-October 2021 about how they hope to start testing with Rally1 car soon.
All the testing up to that point that I listed was with 2017 spec cars and for use on 2017 spec cars.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Pirelli to evaluate WRC tyres after Safari...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/pirelli-to-evaluate-wrc-tyres-after-safari-rally/10317942/

[AnttiL]

Terminology confusion.
The article itself says that Pirelli will supply "Rally1" tires starting 2021. Rally1 in this case means top category running "WRC2017" spec cars.
Clearly they couldn't start testing "Rally1" spec tires in mid of 2020 when the regs were nowhere near finished.

There was an article from September-October 2021 about how they hope to start testing with Rally1 car soon.
All the testing up to that point that I listed was with 2017 spec cars and for use on 2017 spec cars.

Good point, many medias called the top class Rally1 before 2022, although it was incorrect. Back then I even messaged the Dirtfish guys about this confusion and David Evans promised to be more clear after that.

[Sergiow]

Italian interview with Terenzio Testoni ,who is a local Sardinian guy ;)
Interesting comparision with F1:

As in Formula 1, do you recommend tire pressures to the teams?
"In Formula 1 what you propose must be respected, here instead we suggest the pressure on, then in the end a lot depends on the choice of drivers. In rallies everything is more difficult than on the track where you can easily control things: and then the driver may have a problem, he has to get out of the car and solve things. In short, the system is completely different, so imposing the controls here would mean entrusting an extra task to the driver, who already has enough. Just see yesterday (on Saturday, ed), with eight tests without being able to assist: so much of the weight goes to the driver. It's tough, so I also understand that sometimes it's pointless to tell the teams to use a certain amount of pressure when they, in their haste, can't do it. However, when hot, depending on the technology and the bottom, our suggestion is to work between 2.3 and 2.5 bar. On all tires."

https://www.quattroruote.it/news/sport/2022/06/06/pirelli_testoni_per_le_rally1_ibride_abbiamo_svilu ppato_gomme_modificate_in_tanti_particolari_.html

[mknight]

And then when they use different pressure and get a tire off the rim they will still say "I didn't hit anything" at the stopline...

Kinda like Sordo on Friday in Portugal last year. He was supposedly told that soft tires would last some 40 stage kms in those conditions. So he drove 80 and then was totally surprised when some deflated on a road section.