Electric RallyCar Development

[Sulland]

Fully electric rally cars will come in some shape or form. Lets collect the development prosess, and discussions in this thread.

[AnttiL]

Hayden Paddon's Hyundai Kona EV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFMwLKqYtMU

Raimund Baumschlager's Skoda Fabia

https://vimeo.com/514700231

Opel Corsa E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn3MQ0g6BGo

[hari]

Some more videos and foto galleries of the Kreisel RE-X1 - Raimund Baumschlager:

Galleries:
http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos_eis_schnee_entwicklungs_test_kreisel_re-x1_0221.html
http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos_schotter_entwicklungs_test_kreisel_re-x1_0221.html
http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos_test_kreisel_re-x1_rebenland_21.html
http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos_entwicklungs_test_kreisel_re-x1.html
http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos_entwicklungstest_kreisel_re-x1.html

Videos:
https://vimeo.com/509174103
https://vimeo.com/501023152
https://vimeo.com/514700231
https://vimeo.com/494645589

Note: There is a sound module by Remus in development for the car

http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos/2021/brr180221/1.jpg

[hari]

Gallery Skoda Kreisel RE-X1 full electric - gravel test: http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos_brr_test_150621_skoda_kreisel_rex1_raimund_b aumschlager.html
Video: https://vimeo.com/563430350

http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos/2021/brr150621/1.jpg
http://www.ir7.at/content/fotos/2021/brr150621/2.jpghttp://www.ir7.at/content/fotos/2021/brr150621/3.jpghttp://www.ir7.at/content/fotos/2021/brr150621/5.jpg

[AnttiL]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3dbp0-fJQw&feature=emb_title&ab_channel=PMRallyeVids

First action from the e-Corsa series in Germany. Remember that these are the equivalent of Rally5/R1 cars, they're not meant to be as spectacular as WRC or Rally2/R5.

[EstWRC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3dbp0-fJQw&feature=emb_title&ab_channel=PMRallyeVids

First action from the e-Corsa series in Germany. Remember that these are the equivalent of Rally5/R1 cars, they're not meant to be as spectacular as WRC or Rally2/R5.

hilarious

[MartijnS]

The Fabia is fast. Sounds still sucks, but no complains about the other elements of the car :)

[mknight]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3dbp0-fJQw&feature=emb_title&ab_channel=PMRallyeVids

First action from the e-Corsa series in Germany. Remember that these are the equivalent of Rally5/R1 cars, they're not meant to be as spectacular as WRC or Rally2/R5.

As you say for comparison you'd need Rally5/R2 car, I don't even remember ever seeing one tbh, lowest class I ever saw for more than one corner is R2.

Anyway I think the concept of the car is kinda flawed. Why build an electric car that tries to be the same as petrol one? It could easily have more power/acceleration (say 50%) while keeping similar complexity. (Just like the electric "R5" Fabia has more power than the R5)

The danger of course is a "cheap" car with simple suspension that is too fast for it, leading to dangerous crashes (N4 comes to mind). This could maybe be limited by limiting when the power is delivered.

[mknight]

The Fabia is fast. Sounds still sucks, but no complains about the other elements of the car :)

Two weeks ago I went to a rally with my son after more than a year. He plays rally on computer, sometimes watches rally online with me and has driven in noisy "performance" cars before.

After R5s a 208 Rally2 came... son's reactions:
"Daddy why can't they make electric rally cars so they don't make so much noise?" (holding his ears)

[Rallyper]

No heritage, no knowledge, no history experience, no need to have as a benchmark...

[Francis44]

Two weeks ago I went to a rally with my son after more than a year. He plays rally on computer, sometimes watches rally online with me and has driven in noisy "performance" cars before.

After R5s a 208 Rally2 came... son's reactions:
"Daddy why can't they make electric rally cars so they don't make so much noise?" (holding his ears)

Funnily enough, some weeks ago I took my 12 and 7 year old nephew's to Rally de Portugal, they enjoyed it massively. Their number 1 complaint? The wait times and the lack of noise from the cars �� .

[mknight]

Funnily enough, some weeks ago I took my 12 and 7 year old nephew's to Rally de Portugal, they enjoyed it massively. Their number 1 complaint? The wait times and the lack of noise from the cars �� .

Did you notice that the lesson learned is actually the same as in my case?
Namely:
What is "normal" (rally) car sound, depends entirely on what you are used to.

[er88]

I feel noise is one of the biggest reasons rallying is such a spectacle - to fans who regularly attend. Hearing cars echoing for miles away in the forest/ countryside makes the sport for me and millions of rally fans around the world. The IRC became huge because of those screaming s2000s compared to the group Ns (even though in visual speed, there wasn't much difference at times). The WRC has been amazing to watch stageside since 2017.

Electric can only work if they come up with a proper artificial sound to add to it. Otherwise fans on the stages will diminish. I guarantee you.

I used to "moan" as a young wee boy about how loud air shows were, or listening to old metros and the like screaming through forest rallies. But the noise and thrill is what always stuck with me and pulled me back. That wow factor combined with the speed.

I'm not absolutely against Electric, but we need a sound (even if it is fake). Just make it sort of realistic if that's the direction we have to end up going years down the line.

[mknight]

I agree that there needs to be some (amplified) sound. I don't think it should be "petrol engine imitation" though, but that's not a main point.

Stageside the sound is important also for the reasons you list but for Online/TV viewers the magnitude doesn't matter at all, if it's too loud it gets muted and if its too low it gets amplified, heli pictures have no sound at all
For WRC in the future the majority of viewers will come from online/tv and not from stageside (if it doesn't already atm).

Therefore the sound is much more important for "local" national rallies than it is for WRC. Which is why for example the electric Corsa is imo a bad idea, while the Fabia which already has some sound amplification afaik is better.

But in the end rallying is attractive due to 3 things:

1. Cars look same as normal cars (and "sound" similar, so if most cars are electric hearing petrol cars will be strange and the other way around)
2. Stages are on normal roads that people can relate to
3. Cars compete for time not for "sound points" or "sideways points"

[Francis44]

1. Cars look same as normal cars (and "sound" similar, so if most cars are electric hearing petrol cars will be strange and the other way around)
2. Stages are on normal roads that people can relate to
3. Cars compete for time not for "sound points" or "sideways points"

Again you write this as if your speaking for everyone.

I would be able to give you several examples of friends of mine, casual fans, and they would give the Following reasons why they find the sport somewhat attractive:

1. On the limit driving, sideways, close to walls.
2. Spectacular sounds.
3. Crazy scenery.

You do know that most fans barely look at the standings and check stage times religiously?

[EstWRC]

I agree that there needs to be some (amplified) sound. I don't think it should be "petrol engine imitation" though, but that's not a main point.

Stageside the sound is important also for the reasons you list but for Online/TV viewers the magnitude doesn't matter at all, if it's too loud it gets muted and if its too low it gets amplified, heli pictures have no sound at all
For WRC in the future the majority of viewers will come from online/tv and not from stageside (if it doesn't already atm).

Therefore the sound is much more important for "local" national rallies than it is for WRC. Which is why for example the electric Corsa is imo a bad idea, while the Fabia which already has some sound amplification afaik is better.

But in the end rallying is attractive due to 3 things:

1. Cars look same as normal cars (and "sound" similar, so if most cars are electric hearing petrol cars will be strange and the other way around)
2. Stages are on normal roads that people can relate to
3. Cars compete for time not for "sound points" or "sideways points"

im not sure if you mean this seriously or not?

i dont know anybody from my close relatives and friends who is interested in rally because of those reasons.

its the reasons what Francis44 brought out, especially reason nr.1

[Duvel]

Again you write this as if your speaking for everyone.

I would be able to give you several examples of friends of mine, casual fans, and they would give the Following reasons why they find the sport somewhat attractive:

1. On the limit driving, sideways, close to walls.
2. Spectacular sounds.
3. Crazy scenery.

You do know that most fans barely look at the standings and check stage times religiously?

Agree 100%

[mknight]

Again you write this as if your speaking for everyone.

I would be able to give you several examples of friends of mine, casual fans, and they would give the Following reasons why they find the sport somewhat attractive:

1. On the limit driving, sideways, close to walls.
2. Spectacular sounds.
3. Crazy scenery.

You do know that most fans barely look at the standings and check stage times religiously?

The things that I wrote is what differentiates rally from other motorsports .

The things you wrote can be found in multiple different motorsports, sometimes also together. Rallycross is obviously the closest. But for example hillclimbs offer pretty spectacular driving with sometimes crazy cars at insane speeds. (provided you like tarmac)

But off course in order for my list of 3 things to work it has to be spectacular to watch, but a lot of other motorsports are spectacular to watch. In fact, most are in a way, otherwise nobody would watch them.


With regards to stagetimes I also don't look at them when I am stageside, specially when it's some local rally. Online it's something else, as claimed before majority of WRC fans watch online/tv.




im not sure if you mean this seriously or not?

i dont know anybody from my close relatives and friends who is interested in rally because of those reasons.

its the reasons what Francis44 brought out, especially reason nr.1

Yep you follow every rally Tanak does in detail to cheer how he went sideways through the corner. Makes one wonder why you get upset when he doesn't win though...

[EstWRC]

what this has to do with me following Tänak and how he went through the corner? lol

i was talking about the bigger picture why other people like and follow this sport

[AnttiL]

Rallying is great because it can be loved for several reasons. I would say the opposite ends are following results of an events live through ewrc-results without seeing any visuals or spectating live without knowing the results. I've done both during the last month. Or even during the last week. Then you have car enthusiasts, route enthusiasts, stats enthusiasts, history enthusiasts, people who just want to hear engines roar, people who just want to get adrenaline running, people who like to analyze driving performances and styles through what they see, people who like the spectating experience of going into the nature and meeting people etc or people who go to a rally like a rock festival, enjoying the atmosphere more than the sport itself. Or any combination of these. It's a versatile sport and we shouldn't consider anyone better than the other.

If you take the sound off, it's one aspect. It may be the most important one for someone, and that person might move to following other motorsports, where combustion engines are still used.

[mknight]

what this has to do with me following Tänak and how he went through the corner? lol

i was talking about the bigger picture why other people like and follow this sport

You wrote you don't know anybody who is interested in rally due to stagetimes (among other things). So either you don't know yourself or you are over-simplifying things. I'd say the latter is correct, so I responded on same level.
I was also talking about the bigger picture and mentioned what differentiates rally from other (motor)sports. This you skipped (twice now) for one-line wisdoms.


To go back from trolling:
- I do claim that rallies taking part on normal roads behind people's houses is how most people get to know rally in the first place.

- Go-kart competition or the mentioned hillclimbs can also take place on normal roads, but since the "cars" are relatively alien it's much harder to relate to for fans (and manus) and is less popular. My claim following this is that if cars that people drive daily run on petrol, electric feels and looks alien, but similarly when people drive electric cars, petrol cars will start to look alien (especially to new fans)

- Without stagetimes there would be no "on the limit" driving, could still be spectacular though. When you (as a more interested fan) are not at a rally and there is no live vid you still follow stagetimes.

[EstWRC]

why every answer is always trolling to you?

i see you have said this to me in the past and also to other members like dimviii as well. The fact that we just answer shortly and express our opinions differently doesnt mean its trolling.

i would say in this case you started trolling with your Tänak example addressed to me.

the only thing i agree from your examples is stage times, thats indeed why many people follow the sport.

But from MY experience (going to rallies, talking to peeople etc), im still gonna say that sideways on the limit driving is nr.1 reason why people get attracted to this sport. The rest comes after that.

JUST MY OPINION

[AnttiL]

But from MY experience (going to rallies, talking to peeople etc), im still gonna say that sideways on the limit driving is nr.1 reason why people get attracted to this sport. The rest comes after that.


Probably, but then you can ask why they like rally and not rallycross or speedway or drifting instead?

Rallying is a very complicated sport to explain to someone, I've noticed it now that my four year old kid is starting to ask questions. On circuit racing it's more straightforward, the first car which completes the number of laps is the winner.

[AnttiL]

My claim following this is that if cars that people drive daily run on petrol, electric feels and looks alien, but similarly when people drive electric cars, petrol cars will start to look alien (especially to new fans)


This is an important point. Not yet, since electric cars are still in the minority, but it could be already different in ten years.

[mknight]

This is an important point. Not yet, since electric cars are still in the minority, but it could be already different in ten years.

Which brings us back to what a I posted few pages back.

Here 1/3 to 1/2 of the cars you see on the road are electric, and notably majority of "new and cool" cars on the road are. Which is likely why my son asked why aren't any of those rallycars on the stage electric.

[TypeR]

why every answer is always trolling to you?

i see you have said this to me in the past and also to other members like dimviii as well. The fact that we just answer shortly and express our opinions differently doesnt mean its trolling.

i would say in this case you started trolling with your Tänak example addressed to me.

the only thing i agree from your examples is stage times, thats indeed why many people follow the sport.

But from MY experience (going to rallies, talking to peeople etc), im still gonna say that sideways on the limit driving is nr.1 reason why people get attracted to this sport. The rest comes after that.

JUST MY OPINION
Other than his opinion is trolling or false..

If the noise is too big, then there are noise cancelling headphones or earplugs available..

[denkimi]

It's not the sound in itself that attracts people, it's the sense of speed that is created by the sound.

Its very difficult to judge the speed of a car just visually. A low rev megane r4 always looks slow because it sounds like a tractor, while a high revving s1600 car may be slower but looks a lot faster.

Also, the sound alows you to hear what a driver is doing. Is he keeping his foot down or is he lifting, is he breaking early or late. Is he driving clean or is he pushing.

Therefore if they actually want people to come and watch electric cars race, they will need a way to create sound that indicates how much throttle the drivers applies.

[mknight]

It's not the sound in itself that attracts people, it's the sense of speed that is created by the sound.

Its very difficult to judge the speed of a car just visually. A low rev megane r4 always looks slow because it sounds like a tractor, while a high revving s1600 car may be slower but looks a lot faster.

Yes, but does the sense of speed created by sound come from "knowing/expecting" that more sound=more speed? I would expect so.

"By experience" we "know" that more engine sound=faster. If our experience from early on is different, maybe we won't get that association at all. This is what I thought when my son wondered why the cars are noisy (and slow, as it was an R2) instead of "silent" and fast. For me it was a bit of a revelation moment. Precisely because he does not have that "sound=speed" association from before, maybe he doesn't mind less sound.




Also, the sound alows you to hear what a driver is doing. Is he keeping his foot down or is he lifting, is he breaking early or late. Is he driving clean or is he pushing.

Therefore if they actually want people to come and watch electric cars race, they will need a way to create sound that indicates how much throttle the drivers applies.

Totally agree.

The electric Fabia guys say that they somehow tried it and it seems to show on the last vid.

But for me it's not distinct enough yet. Lifting is ok, but hard to say how much throttle he has and braking is weird.

[denkimi]

Yes, but does the sense of speed created by sound come from "knowing/expecting" that more sound=more speed? I would expect so.
It's not so much "more" sound. Just making it louder dus not much improve the impression of speed. A tractor still sound like a tractor, no matter how loud you make it. Although loud sounds do create stress and thus adrenaline though.

Its more about high revs, about changes in the intensity of the sound. Its about not being monotonous.

Its just like music, you can play mozart as loud as you want but it still doesn't make you jump up and down.

[hari]

Having the opportunity to follow about 15 testdays with the Skoda Kreisel RE-X1 on all surfaces until now I can only report from my side that all the fuss about the missing / unusual sound is just a matter of being used to the common.

It was strange at the beginning, but after a suprisingly short time you get used to it. Now I already like the futuristic sound.
You cannot judge from the videos alone, the live impression is different. But it looks like a rally car, it drives like a car and its absolutely stunning to see how it envolves.

I have absolutely no fear about the future of our sport if it brings something in this direction in some years.

[steve.mandzij]

Having the opportunity to follow about 15 testdays with the Skoda Kreisel RE-X1 on all surfaces until now I can only report from my side that all the fuss about the missing / unusual sound is just a matter of being used to the common.

It was strange at the beginning, but after a suprisingly short time you get used to it. Now I already like the futuristic sound.
You cannot judge from the videos alone, the live impression is different. But it looks like a rally car, it drives like a car and its absolutely stunning to see how it envolves.

I have absolutely no fear about the future of our sport if it brings something in this direction in some years.Exactly, it's not worse, it's different. Perhaps in some years somebody will find a way to make a fully sustainable, no caveat fuel to keep ICE engines alive in some way, shape or form, but should rally go electric it'll just be a matter of getting used to the new sound.

I'm in the minority, surely, that enjoyed Formula E's futuristic wooshing sound both times I saw them in person. I wouldn't dislike an electric rally car to have an amplified electric noise, for instance; and cars like Hayden Paddon's Kona EV already have a lot of electric whine noise, which sounds cool.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[hari]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/austrian-champion-to-debut-electric-skoda-rally-car/

[RS]

Fabia R5 vs Electric Fabia:

https://youtu.be/icx6PWyHOlo

Car looks damn quick in a straight line at least.

If this car and othera can compete on a 'normal' rally in a normal way, I suppose it won't be long until the FIA introduce a 'Rally2e' class or something along those lines.

[mknight]

I think I heard about 50 stage km range and charging times were like 20 mins (not sure how big % range), so probably one charging spot per section.
Good idea to "tune it" to about same speed as R5, obviously it will be hard to make it exactly the same.

For a class to work I'd say you need more manufacturers, Østberg mentioned Citroen working on a similar car at the start of the year.
If you do that there need to be "unexploitable" rules.

Power control shouldn't be so hard, something based on limiting the power going from batteries (similar to restrictor limiting airflow).
"Traction control", might be more difficult. Since there is no mechanical connection between front and rear there is electronic "center diff" already included. How can that be controlled and changes limited? Homologated code?

[SubaruNorway]

How power is controlled and checked, also a safety video on here
https://youtu.be/vc7QzVzNtsg

CC for subtitles

[Mirek]

Baumschlager said in an interview for ewrc that the car had 1368 kg, i.e. 170 kg more than R5. It has 345 Hp in rally mode and 700 Hp in RX mode. If I understood right they count with 5-7 minutes of charging between each stage in Austrian championship.

[mknight]

How power is controlled and checked, also a safety video on here
https://youtu.be/vc7QzVzNtsg

CC for subtitles

Nah, no subtitles needed.
Stohl has great "hardcore" Austrian accent btw.

[scn]

I think yesterday it was the first rally for the electric Skoda of Baumschlager. The car is definitely slower than R5s despite the huge torque. He finished 2':47'' behind the leader, which is not what Baumschlager does when he is competing with an R5.
However, it would be interesting to know how they managed to recharge it in a rally that had as much as eight SS in one day. Is it true that they had one fast recharger after each stage?

[hari]

I think yesterday it was the first rally for the electric Skoda of Baumschlager. The car is definitely slower than R5s despite the huge torque. He finished 2':47'' behind the leader, which is not what Baumschlager does when he is competing with an R5. However, it would be interesting to know how they managed to recharge it in a rally that had as much as eight SS in one day. Is it true that they had one fast recharger after each stage?

The car can be charged in the servicepark and when refueling for other cars is allowed on the liasion (like Mitsubishis with the small tank etc.).
Here is the itinerary of Rally Weiz: http://www.rallye-weiz.at/2021/DOK/zeitplan.pdf

There was absolutely no problem with the distances at Rallye Weiz with a lot of buffer.

The premiere of the Skoda Kreisel RE-X1 was a big success. Remember it was the first rally of such a kind of car and the stages of Rallye Weiz with a lot of downhill sections did not suit the car with the heavier weight. The progress in the next months / years will be very interesting to follow.

[RS]

It must be very hard to find an accurate equivalence with the power vs. the R5 as the advantage of extra power vs. disadvantage of the extra weight will vary from rally to rally.

Is this the first 'real rally' for an electric rally car or does Paddon compete amongst the main field with his too?

[mknight]

Baumschlager said himself they tested with Aigner back to back driving R5 and electric on same stage and electric was 1s/km slower.

One simple way would simply be to turn on more power (that the car is easily capable off), say 50?hp more?
On the other hand the Rally2 is "top spec" developed over many years, the electric car is still a "semi-works" prototype. So maybe they can make it faster by other improvements.

Also the electric car afaik still uses same basic Fabia shell/chassis. Guess it could be more optimized if build from ground up.

[Mirek]

One simple way would simply be to turn on more power (that the car is easily capable off), say 50?hp more?

That would decrease the range. The power is already around 350 Hp in rally mode, i.e. reasonably more than the Rally2. The issue is the weight.


Also the electric car afaik still uses same basic Fabia shell/chassis. Guess it could be more optimized if build from ground up.

It's not totally same. Škoda Motorsport built a special modified chassis for this car however I don't know the exact differences.

[mknight]

That would decrease the range. The power is already around 350 Hp in rally mode, i.e. reasonably more than the Rally2. The issue is the weight.


I think I heard 50? stage km range (or 35?, not sure).
Going for 400 hp would decrease it to say 40?

Baumschlager also mentioned some other possibilities for lowering weight.

Another question is if it should be "exactly" same speed as Rally2, which it likely will never be. Either it will be a bit slower or a bit faster, a lot depending on the stage I guess.

[Mirek]

I think I heard 50? stage km range (or 35?, not sure).
Going for 400 hp would decrease it to say 40?

The ÖRM event schedules are already built so that this car can compete. I don't think you'll raise the popularity of the car by further concessions in favour of it.


Baumschlager also mentioned some other possibilities for lowering weight.

Of course, if you make the bonnet, roof or door from carbon fiber, the windows from polycarbonate you'll save weight but by allowing features which are forbidden for other rally cars.

[hari]

The ÖRM event schedules are already built so that this car can compete. I don't think you'll raise the popularity of the car by further concessions in favour of it.


The Itinerary of Rallye Weiz 2021 is identical to the last edition 2019....

[cali]

The ÖRM event schedules are already built so that this car can compete. I don't think you'll raise the popularity of the car by further concessions in favour of it.



Of course, if you make the bonnet, roof or door from carbon fiber, the windows from polycarbonate you'll save weight but by allowing features which are forbidden for other rally cars.And ofc you raise the cost

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[mknight]

The ÖRM event schedules are already built so that this car can compete. I don't think you'll raise the popularity of the car by further concessions in favour of it.
.

How rally itinary is build up and where fueling/charging zones are is of extremely little interest to anyone but drivers.

(But sure people that want to complain about electric cars will always find something to point fingers at. The most funny one I see about this rally car is that it's not ecological cause it needs to be charged...(from whatever source). Electric rally car is not doing a rally cause it's ecological, it's doing it cause the manufacturer wants to showcase a car that is similar to what they want to sell).

Baumschlager said it pretty clearly. If we want sponsors and manus in rally in the future, the car needs to be similar to what manus/sponsors try to sell.

For an electric rally car the main and only goal needs to be that it's interesting to watch on stages. Driving of this one looks interesting, I am not quite sure about the sound yet.

Would it look better with more power or with less weight?
___________

With regards to (running) cost I have no idea how it might compare with R5. Suspension etc should be similar (a bit more more now with weight, same if same weight).
Battery capacity shouldn't affect speed so they can likely last a bit. No idea how much degradation the electric engines get, probably a lot less than petrol.
Cooling system probably about same.
No gearbox/ALS/ turbo etc.

[Mirek]

An honest question. How is it with the safety requirements for the mechanics? By the safety law which is applied in my current job it is not allowed to work on high voltage systems without having appropriate electrical engineering degree. Are the Kreisel mechanics electricians or how is it done to abide the safety law?

[Humber]

Z - my understanding is the training organisations offer a hybrid car/ electric car repair/ remedy training course which is held over a year. It is 9 days total in a training workshop and a lot of online course material to do. You need to be a level 4 mechanic to apply.
Toyota NZ have their own training course for their hybrid cars. They selected their best mechanics when the prius was first introduced for the initial training.

The NZ fire and emergency/ car crash rescue staff have training for electric/ modern high voltage vehicles. NZ Fire trainers went to USA for Tesla and Fremont Fire Department training on how to deal with Teslas in accidents.
There are a few NZ companies doing electric truck conversions (sea electric, e-trucks etc) and the staff would all have electrical safety training.

Paddon was hoping to recharge the Kona ev rally in 10 minutes. Modern wrc are not highly economical with their liquid fuel use at around 700ml/ km in stage mode (for gravel?) Look at the refuel zones around this year's Sardinia wrc event route.

[dimviii]

Inside the debut of Škoda’s electric rally car

Raimund Baumschlager made the podium of Rallye Weiz in the first ever event for the all-electric Škoda Kreisel RE-X1

https://dirtfish.com/rally/inside-the-debut-of-skodas-electric-rally-car/

[mknight]

He says what I already mentioned. That if it's too slow vs Rally2 they could add 10kW or something like that (supposedly without any extra modification).
And suggests possible weight reduction on battery and electric motor.

[Mirek]

Few points about the Opel E-Rally Cup from Barum rally.

- The spectators were showing outright animosity, booing on the cars, showing asses to them etc. You can think whatever you want about that but the fact is that there was zero positive publicity for Opel from that but a lot of negative one. Rally spectators simply don't want that (at least on Barum). I feel sorry for the crews because there was undaubtebly high quality among them.

- The cars are slow as hell and boring. Even with top drivers like Pellier, Rossel or Vd Marel they were much slower than Clios Rally5, their times were comparable with historic drivers driving Peugeot 309Gti, BMW 318si or Lada VFTS.

- They weren't able to drive the standard rally loops (too long distance) but that's hardly a surprise.

- They use power from the public power grid but they need 2 MW for themselves (info from Jörg Schrott, boss of Opel Motorsport). That is possible on Barum where service area is placed within a huge factory but it's outright impossible in far majority of Czech events where service is usually located on some small local airfield or other suitable free area.

[mknight]

Your point 1 and 2 hang very closely together.
A slow FWD car with no power and no sound is a boring car...

I also remember people laughing at Ford Ka cup cars 20 years ago....cause they were epically boring.

(add to that the nearly constant anti-electric publicity in Czech media and rally-media especially).

We talked about it previously that I see little point in making an electric car that has no single advantage over a petrol one and in addition has no sound. The advantage that's simplest to add is more power.

The reception to Kneissel Fabia in Austria among people who saw it was quite different.

[Mirek]

The reception to Kneissel Fabia in Austria among people who saw it was quite different.

Of course but you can probably buy the complete Opel E-Rally cup garage for the price of one Kneissel Fabia.

Rallying is not only about the top class. The thing is that the slowest and cheapest modern car (Clio Rally5) was 2-5 s/km faster than the Opel E-Rally cup cars (with better drivers). The Opel E-Rally cup was meant to show afforadble electric rallying but the result is an epically slow and boring car.

[mknight]

Take Honda E, put in rollcage and upgrade battery cooling and you have an electric car that's fun to watch and probably same cost as the Opel.

The whole concept of that cup just seems wrong to me. If you sacrifice "everything" for cost you end up with a car that costs the same as petrol one but without any advantage.

-------

As I have said before I find it totally ridiculous when people use this car or even better stock Audi Etrons (in Rally Bohemia 2 years ago) as justification that electric cars are boring.

Nobody would use the the mentioned Ford Ka or stock Audi Q5 as a "representative" rally car.

[Mirek]

Take Honda E, put in rollcage and upgrade battery cooling and you have an electric car that's fun to watch and probably same cost as the Opel.

The whole concept of that cup just seems wrong to me. If you sacrifice "everything" for cost you end up with a car that costs the same as petrol one but without any advantage.

-------

As I have said before I find it totally ridiculous when people use this car or even better stock Audi Etrons (in Rally Bohemia 2 years ago) as justification that electric cars are boring.

Nobody would use the the mentioned Ford Ka or stock Audi Q5 as a "representative" rally car.

It's natural to compare the cheap electric cars with the other cheap cars. Far majority of rally entry field is made of cheap cars and is perfectly ok to compare them. Same goes to stock cars. The electric cars must bring some advantages otherwise the only way to promote them is by giving them artificial advatages or by penalising the others - that's being done today (either by rules or by the law, doesn't matter).

Also let's not forget that while electric rally cars power is restricted by range, the power of petrol cars is restricted purely on safety grounds. There is no issue to run larger restrictors without getting out of fuel mid-loop.

[mknight]

But that's exactly what people are not doing. Not comparing similar cars.

Anyway power of petrol cars is not restricted purely on safety grounds. Especially not for cheap cars like R4. It's also a lot about costs. More power needs more cooling, different gearbox, different driveshaft, maybe completely different engine.

With electric cars similar power upgrade is much easier. Range is not a real problem as long as the car manages the stage. "It didn't make whole loop without charging"....who cares? I am not following how often petrol cars have refueling zones. If they need 15min charge after each stage so what...

[Mirek]

If they need 15min charge after each stage so what...

I guess you don't realize how silly that is when 12 very low-power cars need 2MW power grid for recharging and by the words of Mr. Schrott they need 3 days to build the infrastructure and 1,5 days to pack it. How do you want to recharge them after every stage? How do you think it can be done when there is 230 electric cars (Barum 2021)? Where do you even find a place to put them and all the stuff after every stage?

That is all feasible only when the EVs are just a curiosity present in token numbers.

[mknight]

"Travel chargers" like Kneissel uses, with own batteries.
One truck could surely recharge some 30 cars in total after each stage maybe more and charge 5-8 at same time. Then you roll in next truck. Those 230 cars arrive over the span of 3++ hours.

With charging for example after every stage you would need only a few mins (say 10), so at no point will there be too many cars at same time.

In the end it will be a slightly bigger refueling zone, about the size of an average petrol station parking area.

(Obviously you then drive the trucks to a place where they charge over longer period.)

Funnily in the longer term you could also use the "public" charging infrastructure. Cause unlike (racing) fuel, electricity is the same and you can't "cheat" with it. So if not necessarily charging at normal chargers, you could have a "connecting box" (with converters and cooling), that you set up on a public fast charger (350 kw one).


-------------

The current ecup setup doesn't simply sound like a good (and scalable) idea. Recharging directly off grid with 12 cars at "same" time.

[Mirek]

"Travel chargers" like Kneissel uses, with own batteries.
One truck could surely recharge some 30 cars in total after each stage maybe more and charge 5-8 at same time. Then you roll in next truck. Those 230 cars arrive over the span of 3++ hours.

With charging for example after every stage you would need only a few mins (say 10), so at no point will there be too many cars at same time.

In the end it will be a slightly bigger refueling zone, about the size of an average petrol station parking area.

(Obviously you then drive the trucks to a place where they charge over longer period.)

Funnily in the longer term you could also use the "public" charging infrastructure. Cause unlike (racing) fuel, electricity is the same and you can't "cheat" with it. So if not necessarily charging at normal chargers, you could have a "connecting box" (with converters and cooling), that you set up on a public fast charger (350 kw one).


-------------

The current ecup setup doesn't simply sound like a good (and scalable) idea. Recharging directly off grid with 12 cars at "same" time.

Who will pay those millions of Euros for those trucks?

[mknight]

Who pays for FIA-approved racing fuel and refueling zones?

The biggest difference is that a charging truck has high investment cost and low running cost. While racing-fuel infrastructure is the opposite.

Anyway on second thought a "connecting box/case" (maybe including cooling) that can be used on public chargers might be the best solution even in like 2-3 years
Obviously in a rally the organizers will then close off some chargers to the public and designate them as charging zones.

[Mirek]

Who pays for FIA-approved racing fuel and refueling zones?

Sorry, but it's impolite to answer a question by a question.

Who will pay those millions of Euros for those charger trucks?

[mknight]

The same people that pay for the FIA-approved racing fuel and refueling zones....

which in the end is the participants.(drivers/teams).

Both directly (fuel cost) and indirectly (entry fees to rallies/championship).

Obviously with high investment cost and low running cost+reuse it makes little sense for every rally (or competition) to buy their own. So FIA/national organization has a competion for charging supplier who gets fixed sum+payment per driver on each rally. (Again either entry fee or "pay per kWh").


"But it will be so expensive".
Quick calculation is: 3 MWh Tesla megapack is about 1 mil.
Assuming 50 kWh batteries in each car that's 60 cars. So on normal rallies with 100 cars you need 2 + say 2 recharging themselves ( that ignores any chance of connecting to the grid at the rally car recharging location). So 4 mil.

Now the big question is how you utilize those? For one championship that has a rally once per month? That wouldn't make sense. Let's say you share it with 3 championships that have 6 rallies each.
4 mil/(18*100)=2,2k euros per car and rally.

That's assuming the trucks last one year. If we assume some replacement needs and say they last 3 years on average you get 700 euro per car and rally. That doesn't sound too bad.
Obviously these are very approximate figures but I'd assume they are not orders of magnitude wrong.


Anyway it still makes more sense to try to use existing infrastructure (charging stations) as much as possible. Cause as I mentioned and you ignored. The big difference between petrol and electric cars is that electricity (converted) is same for everyone and those converters (AC/DC, voltage etc) are not oil-rafinery sized.

[Franky]

In your calculations you are forgetting the most important aspect of our economy. Capitalism. A Tesla megapack may cost roughly one million, but it's just a single cog. There are so many others you need to consider as well. From staff and facilities to profit and future investments. Charging up the storage will be the cheapest part - LINK TO EU PRICE STATISTICS (https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Electricity_prices_for_non-household_consumers,_second_half_2020_(EUR_per_kWh )_v1.png)

[Steve Boyd]

Now the big question is how you utilize those? For one championship that has a rally once per month? That wouldn't make sense. Let's say you share it with 3 championships that have 6 rallies each.
4 mil/(18*100)=2,2k euros per car and rally.

That's assuming the trucks last one year. If we assume some replacement needs and say they last 3 years on average you get 700 euro per car and rally. That doesn't sound too bad.Until you look at the fact that a typical 45 mile (70 km) rally in the UK has an entry fee of about €700 so you are proposing a doubling of entry fees to cover the cost of providing charging facilities when most competitors don't need them.

[Mirek]

Until you look at the fact that a typical 45 mile (70 km) rally in the UK has an entry fee of about €700 so you are proposing a doubling of entry fees to cover the cost of providing charging facilities when most competitors don't need them.

Moreover it's about one-time investment which needs to be done pre-season which is a different thing than entry fee or fuel expenses every now and then.

[Jarek Z]

The sound is amazing!
https://vimeo.com/608752676?fbclid=IwAR0jCpo8GHlOBKCihyuHu-DojB8wdarFCHULfChXynVltvmrOxSaopZe9gU

[AnttiL]

https://twitter.com/haydenpaddon/status/1451693383009726464?s=21

Paddon’s Kona EV with sound

Still feels a bit weird, but at least it’s loud.

[TypeR]

Earplugs will be most sold fan items..

[EstWRC]

That was a very loud mosquito flying by

[cali]

To be honest I expected more but this sound is quite awkward to say the least

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[mknight]

Liked the more "spaceship" sound from before, if they could make that louder. That said live it might sound different.

[Steve Boyd]

I'd rather listen to leaf-blower racing . . . .

[AnttiL]

Still a work in progress, confirmed by Paddon himself

[er88]

Still a work in progress, confirmed by Paddon himselfIt can only get better...., surely/hopefully.

[Toyoda]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlRsAjV4vZQ&ab_channel=DirtFish

Try this clip folks, trust me, it doesn't sound like a mozzie.

[mknight]

On this vid it sounds ok.
Maybe only missing a bit more difference between on and off throttle. (now you have ALS for that), not only in intensity.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

World RX going electric in 2022 should at least look good ...

https://www.fiaworldrallycross.com/images/redaktion/World-RX/News-2021/RX1/GCK_Lancia_Delta_Integrale_Visual_c8a5f_f_1400x788 .jpg

https://www.fiaworldrallycross.com/world-rx/news/world-rx/2021/gck-announces-lancia-delta-integrale-for-2022/

[rp]

World RX going electric in 2022 should at least look good ...



Maybe, but not sounds good...

[Humber]

I am not sure reusing historical /30 plus year old car silhouettes in Rallycross, is progress. If the past is the future, then can we please have Audi sport quattro and Subaru 22b etc electric versions in RX-2022?

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-lancia-delta-ev-confirmed-brand-goes-all-electric

[Mirek]

I am not sure reusing historical /30 plus year old car silhouettes in Rallycross, is progress.

It's a blasphemy and a farce.

They want to popularize the electric power but they didn't find a better way than to imitate the legens of the petrolhead past. That's worth of a double facepalm.

[AndyRAC]

Soon as I saw it, I just shook my head. Really? Have they no imagination.........??? D- Try again!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

GCK make a road-car version of the EV Integrale so I presume its to promote this. I dont expect the other entrants to have retro designs.

This one adds some interest though and the publicity may attract more viewers.

[AnttiL]

GCK make a road-car version of the EV Integrale so I presume its to promote this. I dont expect the other entrants to have retro designs.
.

This.

[WRCStan]

Nearly six months has passed, has there been any significant developments?

[Kenneth]

Well there have been picks from restoration already. But it's still too soon. Season starts in 2 months. Don't forget that these cars used unified powertrains, so there probably don't need to be as much development as in WRC, as the 95% of development were already done.

[AnttiL]

I think Stan meant electric rally cars in general, not just some certain series, maybe you were thinking of the German Opel series?

At least the FIA Rally Director has hinted that hybrids will continue in WRC in 2025, so no hurry for full electrics

[Kenneth]

I thought he was talking about that rallycross Delta.

[WRCStan]

General question, not just of tech development but if there had been any lobbying, e.g. itineraries, regional or local.

One think I did see was that Kreisel are majority owned by John Deere since December, so expect a remote kill-switch and no right-to-repair at service. :D:rolleyes: