Rally1 hybrid cars (2022-)

[AnttiL]

I suggest we add a a new topic for these cars.

A summary of the rules

- Same engine as in the 2017-2021 WRC cars
- 5-speed gearbox, no paddle shift
- No active centre diff
- Aero and suspension is reduced from the 2017-2021 WRC cars
- Hybrid unit can provide up to 100BHP boost on stages (rumoredly only at stage starts and slow corner exits)
- Electric motor is used on service parks and city liaisons
- Electric battery can be charged during liaisons through motor braking
- Tubular frame and scaling of the car body is allowed

M-Sport has already started testing

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sport-completes-first-test-with-2022-rally1-car/

Toyota told rallit.fi they start the hybrid unit test with the old Yaris and it won't be until summer that they get their Yaris GR Rally1 car tested.

Hyundai still says no green light from the company but reportedly work is being done inside the team hq.

[Mirek]

What size of restrictor will be used? I mean if they had the same as now and add the 100 Hp electric motor they would be at 500 Hp peak...

The growth in torque will be even bigger which will require a lot stronger transmission.

[Portimao]

It all seems like a downgrade...

[er88]

It all seems like a downgrade...Will these cars potentially be even more spectacular to watch though? No active centre diff, reduced aero and suspension etc, could/should mean they'll be harder to drive (even if the pure performance drops a little)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Matthew Wilson has been testing the M-Sport mule this week.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sport-completes-first-test-with-2022-rally1-car

https://twitter.com/mattyjim1/status/1371709592107880448?s=20

[SubaruNorway]

Will these cars potentially be even more spectacular to watch though? No active centre diff, reduced aero and suspension etc, could/should mean they'll be harder to drive (even if the pure performance drops a little)

Doubt it, you can't get it much more spectacular than what it already is in my opinion. Not sure how much less suspension travel there will be but going back to something like Gr.A days now would be horrible, jumps would be so boring

[pantealex]

Toyota told rallit.fi they start the hybrid unit test with the old Yaris and it won't be until summer that they get their Yaris GR Rally1 car tested.



That would be weird, because they have that Yaris GR "WRC21" test mule, why should they convert old one to hybrid ?

[cali]

No active centre diff is a really good. I remember 2011 - 2017 and the sideways action was very nice. Todays cars are bit sterile in this matter.

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[Mirek]

No active centre diff is a really good. I remember 2011 - 2017 and the sideways action was very nice. Todays cars are bit sterile in this matter.

There are more reasons for that, one of them is also the current extensive aero package. When you drive sideways the aero package produces less downforce.

[Sulland]

But that sword also has two sides.
If cornering speeds, due to aero, go up and up, then suddenly we will have ugly accidents again, from drivers not mastering this, or just doing a mistake.

There is a safety side to this as well.

[Tauri_J]

So paddle shift will be gone for sure?

[AnttiL]

So paddle shift will be gone for sure?

According to Malcolm Wilson

[denkimi]

But that sword also has two sides.
If cornering speeds, due to aero, go up and up, then suddenly we will have ugly accidents again, from drivers not mastering this, or just doing a mistake.

There is a safety side to this as well.
They used the same argument against the current cars.

The only real ugly accident i can seem to remember is meeke in portugal 18.

[AnttiL]

https://www.fia.com/news/wrc-manufacturers-confirm-3-year-new-deal-commitment-2022-hybrid-era

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/styles/content_details/public/news/main_image/wrc-v6.1-scene_0.jpg?itok=ooHrjtIj

[bomber21]

WOW! Great news! At least we will not have any more manufacturers departures until 2024!

[jonkka]

WOW! Great news! At least we will not have any more manufacturers departures until 2024!

Hopefully it doesn't mean that reverse also applies. In theory, numerus clausus could mean that there are four and only four licenses so no new manufacturer can join. And in case one does, how do they divvy up the development costs between varying number of beneficiaries. Hopefully this has been taken into consideration.

[Mirek]

https://www.fia.com/news/wrc-manufacturers-confirm-3-year-new-deal-commitment-2022-hybrid-era

3,9 kWh is a tiny battery. It gives a clear answer to everyone who thought they could carry hundreds of kilos of dead weight just to do the road sections on electricity.

And it means the cars will stay light.

[denkimi]

3,9 kWh is a tiny battery. It gives a clear answer to everyone who thought they could carry hundreds of kilos of dead weight just to do the road sections on electricity.

And it means the cars will stay light.
It was never meant to be anything but PR.

They can now claim that it are hybrid cars which, technically, they are.

[Mirek]

It was never meant to be anything but PR.

They can now claim that it are hybrid cars which, technically, they are.

And that is good for the fans of the sport.

[mknight]

"Tiny" it certainly isn't. More than twice the battery size of the Toyota hybrids for example. Much bigger than F1 battery also afaik and certainly enough to give a boost on a lot of corners or replace ALS in giving trottle response.

Sadly from what I got so far it won't be used for anything like that. Would have been interesting addition imo if the drivers had a charge indicator and a button to use it.

[AnttiL]

Hopefully it doesn't mean that reverse also applies. In theory, numerus clausus could mean that there are four and only four licenses so no new manufacturer can join. And in case one does, how do they divvy up the development costs between varying number of beneficiaries. Hopefully this has been taken into consideration.

Four?

[Mirek]

"Tiny" it certainly isn't. More than twice the battery size of the Toyota hybrids for example. Much bigger than F1 battery also afaik and certainly enough to give a boost on a lot of corners or replace ALS in giving trottle response.

Sadly from what I got so far it won't be used for anything like that. Would have been interesting addition imo if the drivers had a charge indicator and a button to use it.

F1 is irrelevant, their system is designed only as an additional boost and it is limited by energy per round. Stock Toyota hybrids are also close to being irrelevant becuse they are combined with Atkinson-cycle engines and CVT which means the engine can run in near-constant RPM where it has very high effciency.

3,9 kWh is tiny because in reality it is enough for some 20 km of liaison cruising or for 2,5 minutes of full power (4 km @ 100 km/h average speed).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

M-Sport Ford officially committted:

https://www.m-sport.co.uk/single-post/m-sport-ford-commit-to-wrc-hybrid-era

[Fast Eddie WRC]

M.Wilson:
“As the toughest championship for production-based cars, the FIA World Rally Championship provides the perfect platform to test, develop and promote the latest road car technology – making this development integral to the relevance and continuation of our sport."

Production-based ?

[jonkka]

Four?

Yes, there are four licenses.

EDIT: Link to FIA statement: https://www.fia.com/news/wrc-manufacturers-confirm-3-year-new-deal-commitment-2022-hybrid-era
and excerpt from it:

Through this model, the participation in the FIA World Rally Championship will shift in 2022 to a numerus clausus system of four slots, with each of the three current manufacturers and the FIA owning one slot.

[Mirek]

M.Wilson:
“As the toughest championship for production-based cars, the FIA World Rally Championship provides the perfect platform to test, develop and promote the latest road car technology – making this development integral to the relevance and continuation of our sport."

Production-based ?

PR talk :)

[Tom K]

M.Wilson:
“As the toughest championship for production-based cars, the FIA World Rally Championship provides the perfect platform to test, develop and promote the latest road car technology – making this development integral to the relevance and continuation of our sport."

Production-based ?

I think we can say that. You have Yaris, i20 and Fiesta. All are shape-wise, bodyshell-wise and originating a bit from "production/road" cars. It's quite different to F1 or Formula E, when you basically have only names: Audi, Porsche, Mercedes, Alpine etc.

[AndyRAC]

The 3 current manufacturers re-signing for 2022 onwards is obviously good news - but I find some of it a bit too much. The FiA/ Promoter patting themselves on the back for keeping the current ones - but failing to attract anymore. Classic PR spin.

Manufacturers are out there - they're just not interested in WRC.

[er88]

The 3 current manufacturers re-signing for 2022 onwards is obviously good news - but I find some of it a bit too much. The FiA/ Promoter patting themselves on the back for keeping the current ones - but failing to attract anymore. Classic PR spin.

Manufacturers are out there - they're just not interested in WRC.Can say that, but F1 basically only has Merc, Ferrari and Alpine/Renualt.

Having 3 WRC teams is ok. 4 is probably optimal - at max 5, because when you have more, the weaker teams who don't get results will just leave (Seat/Suzuki/ old Skoda etc etc).

You'll only ever see 6/7/8 semi permanent manufactures if we ever go full electric, imo

[mknight]

F1 is irrelevant, their system is designed only as an additional boost and it is limited by energy per round. Stock Toyota hybrids are also close to being irrelevant becuse they are combined with Atkinson-cycle engines and CVT which means the engine can run in near-constant RPM where it has very high effciency.

3,9 kWh is tiny because in reality it is enough for some 20 km of liaison cruising or for 2,5 minutes of full power (4 km @ 100 km/h average speed).

Here you just totally contradicted yourself in your own post.

2,5 mins of 100 kW full power is tiny and irrelevant on stages that are usually 10-15 mins? (out of which surely less than 50% are on full throttle).

So if the car does not use that power it will not be slower?
(whether a car without the whole system onboard is faster or slower is another question that is much harder to answer and surely depends a lot on stage character and surface)

For the first part. Point is that at minimum you only need a battery that is big enough to store the energy you get from braking (or from petrol engine, but that is less relevant on a race car) until you use it. Which is why a "tiny" 1,6 kWh battery in Toyota is enough to make a difference. Why are you even writing about how the Toyota hybrid drive is set up? It has completely zero relevance to the topic here, it only answers why it reduces fuel consumption a lot, but that's not what we are discussing, we are discussing whether the hybrid for Rallly1 does anything. Ref:


It was never meant to be anything but PR.

They can now claim that it are hybrid cars which, technically, they are.

The above quote that you agree with is simply not true. This is (or does not need to) be just a "PR sticker" that does nothing to how the car drives except for adding weight and it certainly does not need a bigger battery to make a difference.

If we go back to simple explanations again. The "tiny" battery is more than enough to store braking energy and with some 60-70% efficiency (braking->battery->power) it means that for each 10s of full braking you get 6-7 seconds of full power (100 kW). Without having any energy in the battery before stage start.


Off course all this depends on how and when you can use that electric power. I read somewhere that it will only be allowed on "some allowed corners". If true that indeed does destroy a lot of the potential sports-wise, but in that case it's due to the rules and not due to how the system is designed.

[Mirek]

Here you just totally contradicted yourself in your own post.

There were claims that it will be used to travel on the road sections. For that use it is tiny. But I agree that fully electric powered road sections were nonsense from the very beginning.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I think we can say that. You have Yaris, i20 and Fiesta. All are shape-wise, bodyshell-wise and originating a bit from "production/road" cars.

The WRC cars have been production-based since Group A but the 2022 Rally1's are a spaceframe, with panels looking like a certain road car re-sized to to fit.

[AnttiL]

Group B cars were also "production based". There were 200 of each model built and you could buy a street version, complete with turbo and 4WD and spoilers etc.

[Mirek]

The WRC cars have been production-based since Group A but the 2022 Rally1's are a spaceframe, with panels looking like a certain road car re-sized to to fit.


Group B cars were also "production based". There were 200 of each model built and you could buy a street version, complete with turbo and 4WD and spoilers etc.

The irony is that Group B were more production-based than WRC :)

WRC basically only looked like production based. Making them space-frame prototypes hurts nothing and noone.

[scn]

When Malcolm talks about "production based cars", I assume that he refers not only to the panels that make the car look like a production model, but to a very important change for 2022: Regulations for Rally1 will follow the same route as R5, making mandatory the use of a specific number of production components. Maybe not 5000 components, as in a R5 car, but a rather big number also. Such a rule does not exist in any other form of top motorsport, not only F1, but also rallycross, Le Mans prototypes, Dakar etc. From this aspect, the 2022 cars will indeed be "production based".

[TypeR]

Better not to say anything against the new superb revolutionary system... or you get a long novel about this&that..

Same three manus secured for next 3 years with 10 y.o system is a big win!.. or not :D

If no other manu has signed for the next gen era.. some (FIA) people should walk away and give their place to someone sharper..

[Mirek]

Better not to say anything against the new superb revolutionary system... or you get a long novel about this&that..

Same three manus secured for next 3 years with 10 y.o system is a big win!.. or not :D

If no other manu has signed for the next gen era.. some (FIA) people should walk away and give their place to someone sharper..

Talking is cheap.

[Francis44]

Talking is cheap.

Exactly, Rallycross is a good example of that.

WEC rules arent "revolutionary" as well but look how much interest they gathered.

[AndyRAC]

Exactly, Rallycross is a good example of that.

WEC rules arent "revolutionary" as well but look how much interest they gathered.

Exactly! The first hybrid rules were expensive, and unsustainable, so manufacturers left. They've had a rethink, and come up with a solution - and manufacturers have decided it's a good idea to join. Offer the manufacturers something, and they will consider it, and if they think it's a good fit, then they'll sign up.

As I've already said, the manufacturers are out there; sadly, the WRC isn't offering anything to new prospective manufacturers - so we have the same 3 we already have.

[wyler]

3 is still better than the 2 we had last season...

[AnttiL]

3 is still better than the 2 we had last season...

Wait, what?

[Francis44]

Exactly! The first hybrid rules were expensive, and unsustainable, so manufacturers left. They've had a rethink, and come up with a solution - and manufacturers have decided it's a good idea to join. Offer the manufacturers something, and they will consider it, and if they think it's a good fit, then they'll sign up.

As I've already said, the manufacturers are out there; sadly, the WRC isn't offering anything to new prospective manufacturers - so we have the same 3 we already have.

Agreed.

I think Latvala said it best, some years ago we had only 2 manufactures (Citroen and Ford), and a bunch of privateers.

Today it is way too expensive for privateers to rent one of those cars.

There lies the problem if you want a more extensive entrylist.

[wyler]

Wait, what?

Well, we had a huge debate here on how m-sport is not a "real" manufacturer.
Now Ford seems to be more involved with M-Sport compared to last year(s), so they should have a real 2024 commitment and not the classic winter "we don't know if we can enter next year" nor a "transitional" season with no top driver as this one.
To me, it counts as having a "real" manu again. so 3 and not 2 (2 and a privateer if u rather)

and by the way, I think ford is back also because is interested in the hybrid thing (they had a huge marketing on sport website -like eurosport- in Italy about sport hybrids and evs)

[wyler]

this is from october 2020, sponsored by ford:
https://www.eurosport.it/motorsports/ford-bringontomorrow/2020/una-tecnologia-rivoluzionaria-si-affaccia-allorizzonte-degli-sport-motoristici_sto7963739/story.shtml (italian, sorry)

tranlation on the wrc related bit:
CHANGE IS IMMINENT
The FIA World Rally Championship (WRC) has its roots in fierce, muddy and terribly noisy cars. However, the series will have to be reformed in 2022, when hybrid technology will enter the scene, representing the most significant change in technical regulations since the arrival of Group A in 1987.
Among the groups promoting the development of hybrid technology is M-Sport, the most successful Ford-powered rally team based in the UK. This Ford-backed team has many accolades and a solid track record in rallying, winning numerous titles including the Constructors' and Drivers' championships in 2017 and the Drivers' Championship in 2018.
"This is a completely new set of regulations that affect not only the hybrid engine but the entire rally car," Richard Milleners, Team Principal of M-Sport, tells Eurosport. The team is currently working hard to develop its Ford hybrid car for 2022, which will be used for racing around the world.
WE ARE FACING A VERY CHALLENGING HURDLE BECAUSE WE ARE CHANGING EVERYTHING FOR 2022 AND INTRODUCING ANOTHER POWERTRAIN THAT WE HAVE NOT USED BEFORE.
The M-Sport team is excited to talk about the role Ford is playing in the introduction of the technology, with which the manufacturer has determined the implementation of the hybrid together with the FIA.
"We only have a staff of 200 in the UK and we are calling on all of Ford's expertise, which is exceptional," he continues. "Hopefully this will help us build another successful car. The last time the regulations underwent such a change, our car won the championship two years in a row."

FORD DRIVES WRC HYBRID TECHNOLOGY
The WRC season was suspended for four months this year, and during this interruption the teams were allowed to continue their development. According to Richard, this was a good thing, as he continued to work with Ford on the hybrid technology and began to refine the details.
"It was an ideal time for us to focus our efforts on the new car for 2022," he said. "We have had a lot of time to devote to this goal and have further strengthened the collaboration between us.
"Without Ford and its support, none of this would have been possible. They have abundant resources that we rely on to work together. Most of our technology, work and design improvements on our hybrid come from our colleagues in Ford's engineering department."

there's also other ford sponsored articles about innovation in technology and audience engagement that speaks about WRC, with lots of fiesta's pictures. Not so usual in generalist media in Italy. Also not so common lately to Ford to ride their wrc link I think.

[AnttiL]

Sorry, but I believe Ford is not back as a full factory team. Most likely they just give resources to developing the new car, like always, but M-Sport has to deal with the running costs by themselves.

Another good example how Ford can take marketing benefit from M-Sport's efforts without putting down the millions like Toyota and Hyundai.

[wyler]

Sorry, but I believe Ford is not back as a full factory team. Most likely they just give resources to developing the new car, like always, but M-Sport has to deal with the running costs by themselves.

Another good example how Ford can take marketing benefit from M-Sport's efforts without putting down the millions like Toyota and Hyundai.

Maybe, or maybe not.
I think m-sport was the first to test the new car not by his own means, and all this ford pr on the hybrid era in wrc from late 2020 is not random. then for sure ford will not become suddenly toyota in terms of commitment, but will help m-sport to be a decent contender. marketing doesn't work if your product falls way behind the others. useless to put so much effort in pr like "wrc as benchmark of the ford's electric future" with no result to show.

EDIT: also Wilson Pr is way sweeter towards Ford lately...
(testing in America is new or they refer to ford wind tunnel?)
https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/wrc-hybrid-move-safeguards-m-sports-immediate-future/6005846/

[denkimi]

Agreed.

I think Latvala said it best, some years ago we had only 2 manufactures (Citroen and Ford), and a bunch of privateers.

Today it is way too expensive for privateers to rent one of those cars.

There lies the problem if you want a more extensive entrylist.
You have to ask yourself why other sports like f1 or dakar manage to fill the grid, but wrc can't.

If they would get rid of the stupid homologation rules and allow everyone to build a car, we could see far more teams.


Sorry, but I believe Ford is not back as a full factory team. Most likely they just give resources to developing the new car, like always, but M-Sport has to deal with the running costs by themselves.

Another good example how Ford can take marketing benefit from M-Sport's efforts without putting down the millions like Toyota and Hyundai.
After so many years being a private team they still have not considered changing marque.

So it must be that ford is giving them more than any other manufacturer is willing to give.

[Myrvold]

Yes, there are four licenses.

EDIT: Link to FIA statement: https://www.fia.com/news/wrc-manufacturers-confirm-3-year-new-deal-commitment-2022-hybrid-era
and excerpt from it:

Through this model, the participation in the FIA World Rally Championship will shift in 2022 to a numerus clausus system of four slots, with each of the three current manufacturers and the FIA owning one slot.

FIA and their usual BS-stuff -.-

[Andre Oliveira]

Why need “slots”?

[AnttiL]

I think they are collaborating on some costs. But I would also like to know how new manufacturers could join in.

[Steve Boyd]

I think they are collaborating on some costs. But I would also like to know how new manufacturers could join in.
The FIA "ticket" is for new entries. The system used in the British Touring Car Championship is for the organisers to keep a small number of entry licences which can be leased on a short-term basis. These are used for new teams to enter the champonship. Once they have a couple of seasons experience they are expected to bid for a normal entry against the other teams. Teams leaving the championship are also able to sell their entry to other teams. I haven't studied the FIA WRC proposals, but I expect they are similar to what is in use in the BTCC.

[Myrvold]

The FIA "ticket" is for new entries. The system used in the British Touring Car Championship is for the organisers to keep a small number of entry licences which can be leased on a short-term basis. These are used for new teams to enter the champonship. Once they have a couple of seasons experience they are expected to bid for a normal entry against the other teams. Teams leaving the championship are also able to sell their entry to other teams. I haven't studied the FIA WRC proposals, but I expect they are similar to what is in use in the BTCC.

Makes sense when a championship as more entries than it can handle (track-size for BTCC), and don't want to go down pre-qual, which is why F1 is capped at 13 teams in the rules (though, in practice it is 10 teams). But to have 4 in WRC seems... idiotic.

[Steve Boyd]

I see your point but if the development costs of the hybrid system had been down to just the three teams there wouldn't have been any opportunity for a fourth team to join. FIA having a share at least leaves the door open for somebody to join.

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/toyotas-2022-testing-program-underway/

Toyota supposedly testing already

[dimviii]

WRC hybrid testing suspended as parts recalled

Compact Dynamics has requested the return of its hybrid kits, bringing 2022 testing to a sudden pause

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-hybrid-testing-suspended-as-parts-recalled/

[er88]

WRC hybrid testing suspended as parts recalled

Compact Dynamics has requested the return of its hybrid kits, bringing 2022 testing to a sudden pause

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-hybrid-testing-suspended-as-parts-recalled/I worry about this lot....

[Steve Boyd]

I'd like to know more details of the problem before getting too concerned. There's no substitute for actual testing in a car under similar conditions to competition. Temperature and vibration testing in a laboratory cannot fully replicate the stresses that occur on an event so it's no surprise to me that there are issues with the hybrid kit at this stage of development.

[AnttiL]

Sounds quite bad, not very good PR for Compact Dynamics...

[EstWRC]

Embarrassing to say the least...

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/archive/the-wrc-omerta-thats-increasingly-hard-not-to-break/

[Rallyper]

Could it be so simple, they found out hybrid parts doesn´t have enough strength for rallying? More suitable to cruising on highway roads, like most of average Joe´s cars do?

Also worrying about safety, as been the discussion here a lot...

[Mirek]

Could it be so simple, they found out hybrid parts doesn´t have enough strength for rallying? More suitable to cruising on highway roads, like most of average Joe´s cars do?

Also worrying about safety, as been the discussion here a lot...

IMHO Issues were to be expected simply because there is too little prior experience to base the design work on. It's most likely solvable but it will take some time. Hoping for smooth development of something new where everything works perfect on the first attempt is nothing more than a wishful thinking. Always some problems rise and often it's problems which weren't anticipated. For sure it will be very tough to fulfil the schedule but that's hardly breaking news.

[lmmjvss]

I saw on Facebook lots of fans "HAPPY" with this. I AM on the "team non-hybrids please" too but IDK man. If the Hybrids are delayed or cancelled im not sure the manufacturers would continue. I mean, arent the manufacturers the ones demanding Hybrids? Hyundai would quit for sure... And IDK, Toyota was already testing that new car and it got cancelled. Now if they delay the hybrids more couldnt Toyota just say "AGAIN? Well, this is BS. You have no control of your own championship. We are out. Bye" ?
Not to mention MSport without any money..

[mknight]

Yep, if Hybrids were to be cancelled or delayed, at "best" we will continue like this year with 2 competitive teams. At worst one or both will leave and not come back and you get WEC situation when Porsche left and further down the road you get WRC changed to Rally2 only.


That there might be problems is to be expected.... and anticipated in schedule. "Schedule" during 2020/2021 is a problematic word though.

[TypeR]

Don't worry, everything is okay.

“We started the development of this in May last year, we still have a very strong crisis all over the world and 10 months later the first system is delivered – from my side this is a great success.” - Oliver Blamberger, CEO

I'm sure that Toyota(as the ,,father,, of hybrid tech) wouldn't accept that the system used in WRC is worse than their own. Not the best PR to attract new manus to the series.

Matton should think of stepping aside..

[dimviii]

some more info

Despite this, anonymous sources from the teams have confided to the aforementioned medium that some parts of the hybrid unit were not working correctly. In addition, an informant admitted that there is even a lack of software to control the device and that they have not even received an external charger, which is a fundamental piece.

In dialogue with DirtFish, Compact Dynamics CEO Oliver Blamberger acknowledged last month that the global pandemic had caused a five-week delay from the scheduled date for delivering hybrid units to WRC teams.

Likewise, the manager stated that the biggest cause of the delays was linked to suppliers from China and from various countries around the world. These companies contribute various elements of the device and have been chosen for their competitive prices, so that the total cost of the hybrid unit does not exceed 100,000 euros.

In addition, the CEO of Compact Dynamics also revealed that there were other additional delays at the German - Austrian border, where the battery sub-supplier, Kreisel Electric, also had difficulty in shipping its components.

As detailed by Blamberger, the hybrid unit can be tested, both in vehicles and on a test bench, since it has a generator function with the internal combustion of the heat engine, which in theory means that the using the external charger.

However, the CEO of Compact Dynamics also acknowledged in March that the company still owed the delivery of two additional test systems. The first of them included the external charger so requested by the teams, which was agreed to be distributed at the end of March. On the other hand, Blamberger reported that the second system should finish being delivered to the teams this week.

So far, only M-Sport and Toyota have been able to start the tests with their respective Rally1. The British team already got its engine running for the first time last month, before facing a car installation shakedown and initial functional test, which spanned two days and over 400 kilometers in the forests of Greystoke. The most recent reports indicated that the new transmission, suspension and electronics would have been tested on a Ford Fiesta ‘mule’ body.

http://motorboxradio.com.ar/2021/04/16/compact-dynamics-ordeno-detener-los-test-de-los-rally1-y-solicito-un-recall-masivo/

[scn]

the biggest cause of the delays was linked to suppliers from China and from various countries around the world. These companies contribute various elements of the device and have been chosen for their competitive prices, so that the total cost of the hybrid unit does not exceed 100,000 euros.


This means that three manufacturers will depend on some low-cost Chinese suppliers for the success of their whole rallying projects and their ability to finish an Acropolis or Monte, in order to save a few thousand euros??? Is this a joke?

[Mirek]

This means that three manufacturers will depend on some low-cost Chinese suppliers for the success of their whole rallying projects and their ability to finish an Acropolis or Monte, in order to save a few thousand euros??? Is this a joke?

Basically every car on this planet does depend on Chinese low cost suppliers. That's how it is.

[tommeke_B]

Don't forget the special time we live in right now. Strange things are happening... A few months ago the Audi plant in Brussels had to shut down for a while, because they couldn't get hold of some parts (microchips). Sony launched some new Playstation last year, they can't meet the demand because lack of supply for the right parts. Price of many resources have skyrocketed (for example steel price roughly x4 compared to last summer), prices of container transport from China x5 to x10 depending on the type.

Seeing how huge companies struggle to get hold of parts for their production, I think it's short-sighted to blame Compact Dynamics themselves for the delay.

[EstWRC]

M-Sport Ford would exit WRC if new hybrid rules are delayed

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/m-sport-ford-would-exit-wrc-if-new-hybrid-rules-are-delayed/6399591/

[lmmjvss]

M-Sport Ford would exit WRC if new hybrid rules are delayed

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/m-sport-ford-would-exit-wrc-if-new-hybrid-rules-are-delayed/6399591/

I bet Hyundai will say the same =/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If true this is potentially catastrophic news for the WRC.

[Franky]

If true this is potentially catastrophic news for the WRC.

But sometimes you need a catastrophic event for a change.

[lmmjvss]

Kinda OFF TOPIC but FIA released its plans for a new FIA GT series with only electric supercars.
It seems teams will have more freedom in building 2wd or 4wd and they can sorta "change somethings" in the batteries to fit their cars AND they will have this fast charge for longer races (no further infos on how long its going to take to charge them tho. 2min? 5min? 10min?).
So now we have Formula-e, Moto-e, extreme-e, eTCR, eGT, eRX.... covering basically all areas (f1, motogp, 'rally'/rallycross, touring, gts...) and I expect Motocrss to have eBikes in just a few years.
They are really pushing evs into world championships, eh?

[Humber]

If the hybrid cars for WRC go ahead in 2022, should the manufacturers/ FIA allow Rally 2/ R5 cars to be able to score WRC manufacturers points if all the hybrids breakdown? Certainly it might encourage Toyota to push through with the homologation of a Rally 2 GR Yaris.

-----------------
Beyond petrol hybrid could be hydrogen. Though Formula E developments are looking to 30 second recharges.
Group H Rally?(Hyundai and Toyota have production hydrogen vehicles)
https://www.dekra.com/en/hyraze-league/
30 second recharge mid-race
https://www.powerelectronictips.com/formula-e-gen3-smaller-batteries-regen-and-fast-charging-faq/

[Francis44]

I think this is interesting aswell:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motorsport-news-wrc/toyota-previews-new-hydrogen-racing-engine-enduro-series

[Mirek]

If the hybrid cars for WRC go ahead in 2022, should the manufacturers/ FIA allow Rally 2/ R5 cars to be able to score WRC manufacturers points if all the hybrids breakdown? Certainly it might encourage Toyota to push through with the homologation of a Rally 2 GR Yaris.

That makes no sense. You can't replace one car which is late with another non existing one (for Toyota) especially when the first proper update for Rally2 is allowed only after three years of service. Rushed homologation of a Rally2 car is a complete suicide because it can not be fixed.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Toyota is still on schedule...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/latvala-new-toyota-rally1-car-on-schedule-despite-hybrid-recall/6434213/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

M-Sport @MSportLtd

Having completed testing on all surfaces and weather conditions here in the UK, we're about to start the next phase of our 2022 research and development. Watch this space as the next step of hybrid-era testing gets underway !

https://twitter.com/MSportLtd/status/1386975931588386817?s=20

[Simmi]

So what are we looking at here. Fiesta WRC mule? Was expecting a Puma.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So what are we looking at here. Fiesta WRC mule? Was expecting a Puma.

Looks like the new 2022 standard roll-cage in the photos, so it could more than just a 'mule'.

The fitting of Puma panels, lights and badges may be fitted last.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/wrc-hybrid-project-on-course-for-2022/

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sport-releases-images-of-its-2022-rally1-car-testing

[Fast Eddie WRC]

2022 test car in action:

https://twitter.com/lluis6/status/1387012991053336584?s=20

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ez-jkQRWQAItjFt?format=jpg&name=small

[Francis44]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ez-jkQRWQAItjFt?format=jpg&name=small

How the hell do they get in the cars? Will all rollcages look as stupid as this?!

[TypeR]

Can it be somehow attached to the door only? Otherwise I can't see how it is possible to get out..

[Mirek]

It looks very weird indeed. For sure this is not the final rollacage spec., I guess it's only a way to add overall body stiffness which the new space frame will bring.

[henzo]

im sure this isnt the final roll cage design...
That doesnt seem very safe, imagine if the car catches fire, or submerges, how would you get out?

[Andre Oliveira]

https://scontent.flis9-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/179204385_4476283279067731_8608695533932648840_n.j pg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=yvy2Eoq6kC8AX-7alqH&_nc_ht=scontent.flis9-1.fna&oh=c25d021d1d02be002727d46629c2370f&oe=60AE5280

[Fast Eddie WRC]

This new safety cell (roll-cage) could be right and only looks wrong in the Fiesta mule...

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/inside-m-sports-first-full-hybrid-rally1-car-test/

worth posting here as well, lots of small details in the article. Like the aero is supposedly in 2022 trim now.

[mknight]

The way I understand it it means the aero is "reduced" to 2022 allowed levels. Not that it's "tuned" into the final 2022 design.

[AnttiL]

yeah, that's what I meant. Like WRCWings said: Fiesta WRC 2017-spec, with no dive planes, no fender vents and no rear diffuser... that is, simplified aero version 2022

[RS]

Are these new cars self charging or plug-in-hybrid? 3.9KWh battery seems pretty small.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Are these new cars self charging or plug-in-hybrid? 3.9KWh battery seems pretty small.

Plug-in hybrid but the power coming from a renewable source.

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0DkUaUXIAEo6cV?format=jpg&name=large

[Fast Eddie WRC]

EVO Magazine:

"The battery will power an electric motor that will deliver around 100 kW power (approximately 130bhp).

An extra 130bhp over the IC engine's 380bhp means total power output will reach 500bhp, that means an even stronger acceleration, and higher speeds due to the availability of instant torque. Lessons have been learned from the infamous Group B cars, and despite the jump in power, the FIA will regulate how this power can be used. The teams will have control over battery boost deployment and benefit from it on particular parts of a stage, that will likely be predefined by the organisers. This is to make sure the competition remains equal and more importantly, safe."

[Portimao]

EVO Magazine:

"The battery will power an electric motor that will deliver around 100 kW power (approximately 130bhp).

An extra 130bhp over the IC engine's 380bhp means total power output will reach 500bhp, that means an even stronger acceleration, and higher speeds due to the availability of instant torque. Lessons have been learned from the infamous Group B cars, and despite the jump in power, the FIA will regulate how this power can be used. The teams will have control over battery boost deployment and benefit from it on particular parts of a stage, that will likely be predefined by the organisers. This is to make sure the competition remains equal and more importantly, safe."

So basically they are gonna create zones like DRS in F1.

[Mirek]

Plug-in hybrid but the power coming from a renewable source.

They were presented as mild-hybrids, not plugin. IMHO plugin hybrid with such small battery makes little sense.

[Mirek]

EVO Magazine:

"The battery will power an electric motor that will deliver around 100 kW power (approximately 130bhp).

An extra 130bhp over the IC engine's 380bhp means total power output will reach 500bhp, that means an even stronger acceleration, and higher speeds due to the availability of instant torque. Lessons have been learned from the infamous Group B cars, and despite the jump in power, the FIA will regulate how this power can be used. The teams will have control over battery boost deployment and benefit from it on particular parts of a stage, that will likely be predefined by the organisers. This is to make sure the competition remains equal and more importantly, safe."

Is there (anywhere) confirmed that they will run the current restrictor? I doubt that. If no this math is wrong.

[AnttiL]

I read a rumor that the boost could only be used at stage starts and very slow corner exits. Possibbly they are scared it will be too much power to use elsewherr. Sad to see the competitive aspect of where to use the boost not utilized.

I don’t see them changing the restrictor. It would mean a lot of development work to get the engines working with a smaller restrictor. So far they’ve kept saying engines will remain the same.

[steve.mandzij]

I read a rumor that the boost could only be used at stage starts and very slow corner exits. Possibbly they are scared it will be too much power to use elsewherr. Sad to see the competitive aspect of where to use the boost not utilized.

I don’t see them changing the restrictor. It would mean a lot of development work to get the engines working with a smaller restrictor. So far they’ve kept saying engines will remain the same.However all that power and torque is of no use if they can't get the power down to the ground. If they use the electric power for slow corners and stage starts I'd love to see how the tyres hold up with the instant torque from the electric motors.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[SubaruNorway]

They were presented as mild-hybrids, not plugin. IMHO plugin hybrid with such small battery makes little sense.

How can it have enough battery to run electric only through cities when it's only a mild hybrid?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

They were presented as mild-hybrids, not plugin. IMHO plugin hybrid with such small battery makes little sense.

In a statement (re Rally 2 Cars) the FIA said its objective is "to demonstrate how existing road-car technology can be transferred into the motorsport arena, rather than the 'plug-in' hybrid performance-orientated system that is being developed for Rally1".

[Fast Eddie WRC]

At least the new Fiesta doesnt sound like this... ;)

https://youtu.be/UUvKESK_8cA

[Mirek]

How can it have enough battery to run electric only through cities when it's only a mild hybrid?


In a statement (re Rally 2 Cars) the FIA said its objective is "to demonstrate how existing road-car technology can be transferred into the motorsport arena, rather than the 'plug-in' hybrid performance-orientated system that is being developed for Rally1".

True. My bad.

[er88]

I do find it a shame the drivers won't be allowed to decide for themselves where they want to use the boost, during a stage. Would make it more interesting and give the drivers something else to think about it.

[lmmjvss]

meeeeh... Im still not buying into hybrid racing cars tbh. I mean, if they were pushing for electric cars for the WRC (not Rally2, ffs) I'd hate the lack of sound but I'd understand the reasons - But only if they had more freedom to explore and develop the technology. That would be interesting. But Lets be honest: Spec parts are NOT pushing development in anyway. And even so, Manufacturers are in Formula-e mostly because of "Marketing" and not necessarly to "develop road car tech". So.... I dont know. Top Motorsport championships are getting weird. Hope they dont mess up with Rally2.
I just saw wec saying it may need to reduce LMP2 performance even more(!) cuz they are still faster than the new Hypercars. This is pure nightmare.

[Sulland]

How is this package going to work?

- is it plugin hybrid or is it charged up only from driving?
- How can the driver impact how it is used? Is anything said on how the battery management system works with the ICE?
- Is it only meant to be used on transport or also for instance on powerstage?

As it looks now this is only R&D, with a mini 3,9 KWh battery. That is not many km on fully electric.

[mknight]

As it looks now this is only R&D, with a mini 3,9 KWh battery. That is not many km on fully electric.

As I mentioned some time ago this is similar size to batteries in Toyota non-plugin hybrids and more than enough to given electric boost during acceleration in most corners on a typical 10-15 min rally stage. Though for sure not enough for electric-only driving.

As mentioned by others the really bad idea seems to be restricting the usage to only specific parts of stage. But we dunno how restrictive that will be. Best case is that they only block it in a few "dangerous areas", worst case is the opposite - only allowed in very few corners.

[Got Mail]

Apologies if I've missed the news but - what will happen to the current RC1 cars next year?

Will they still be allowed to compete in WRC?

[Mirek]

For sure not. There are basically no private ones anyway.

[lmmjvss]

Rally fans: Want privateers to be able to compete in the top class. Rally2 cars finishing in P8 is not enough. In fact it shows how the top class actually need more entries!
FIA/WRC: Nope... But Please continue watching.

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundai-to-begin-testing-2022-challenger-in-june/

Hyundai car should be tested in June

[lmmjvss]

This is NOT about the hybrid rally1 cars but its is something interesting anyway.
"VW" just entered an electric SUV in a 1000km race in the Mexican Desert (NORRA Championship) and the car finished the event without any major problems! Im NOT a big fan of how FIA demands spec things like the batteries(!!) in Extreme-e and Formula-e because this is NOT how you develop new tech in motorsport.
Im WAY more into these things were manufacturers and racing teams enter in "open rules" classes to try something out. Im also curious about Audi's project for Dakar in '22.
Its nothing increeeedible considering they finished in last, basically... and they had to use a (still not entirely well described) portable biofuel generator for recharging.. But its always interesting to hear those stories.
Tanner Foust was the driver behind the wheel (rally winner in America / 3x US rallycross champion)

https://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-id-4-survives-mexican-1000-off-road-race-wit-1846807213

[scn]

Is there any explanation of the fact that new generation will be only for three years? Is the Euro7, scheduled for 2025 for road vehicles, a factor for this small duration?

[Francis44]

Is there any explanation of the fact that new generation will be only for three years? Is the Euro7, scheduled for 2025 for road vehicles, a factor for this small duration?

I think the FIA wants to decide it alongside F1 new engine regulations, which will also be new from 2025. I would be surprised if significant changes take place, it will probably be some fine tuning or something not related to the powerunit

[er88]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundai-to-begin-testing-2022-challenger-in-june/

Hyundai car should be tested in JuneContrary to this, been a lot of rumours I've heard that Hyundai were in fact the first manufacturer to run tests on an early spec 2022/rally1 car. Maybe other people on here have heard similar?

Take what Mr Adamo tells us with a pinch of salt....

[Myrvold]

This is NOT about the hybrid rally1 cars but its is something interesting anyway.
"VW" just entered an electric SUV in a 1000km race in the Mexican Desert (NORRA Championship) and the car finished the event without any major problems! Im NOT a big fan of how FIA demands spec things like the batteries(!!) in Extreme-e and Formula-e because this is NOT how you develop new tech in motorsport.
Im WAY more into these things were manufacturers and racing teams enter in "open rules" classes to try something out. Im also curious about Audi's project for Dakar in '22.
Its nothing increeeedible considering they finished in last, basically... and they had to use a (still not entirely well described) portable biofuel generator for recharging.. But its always interesting to hear those stories.
Tanner Foust was the driver behind the wheel (rally winner in America / 3x US rallycross champion)

https://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-id-4-survives-mexican-1000-off-road-race-wit-1846807213

It's all due to keeping the costs down.

[lmmjvss]

100% sustainable fuels for 2022.

Its interesting

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/fia-wrc-switches-to-100--sustainable-fuel-from-2022-p1-racing-fuels-as-exclusive-provider/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

100% sustainable fuels for 2022.

Its interesting

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/fia-wrc-switches-to-100--sustainable-fuel-from-2022-p1-racing-fuels-as-exclusive-provider/

More "green-washing" ...

[AnttiL]

More "green-washing" ...

Obviously the fuel that the rally cars consume are only a small part of the carbon footprint of the WRC, but also the most visible one. It's more of a symbolic decision, and also possibly something that is in the interest of the manufacturers?

[lmmjvss]

More "green-washing" ...

Yes. My original post was complaining about that but I deleted cuz I dont want to be like that anymore... I mean. Im all pro all-electric (and autonomous) public transportation (cars, bikes, bus, trucks....) using only renewables to generate the power and etc.... But we KNOW that "We cant save the environment because we are the ones destroying it". You cant save the planet by PRODUCING MORe and more. "Lets save the planet! How? Well...by producing 10 electric SUVs to have a new racing championship".
This is BS. We produce 50bi tons of shit into our atmosphere every year when we should be producing zero... So, Im not buying into nothing FIA is doing. But Im trying to be more neutral.
Will it keep WRC alive? Yes! So fine, bring it.

[Rallyper]

100% sustainable fuels for 2022.

Its interesting

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/fia-wrc-switches-to-100--sustainable-fuel-from-2022-p1-racing-fuels-as-exclusive-provider/

I´d say it doesn´t excist.

[Tom K]

The key is "net" emission. Basically when production consumes less CO2, even with same emission, you can say that net is lower. Marketing guys are happy, everybody are happy :)

[lmmjvss]

The key is "net" emission. Basically when production consumes less CO2, even with same emission, you can say that net is lower. Marketing guys are happy, everybody are happy :)

And even then, you cant be "zero emission" because you travel to the events. And the event itself has fans traveling to the circuits. And the new parts of the cars have to be produced... etc.

Again.. Im 100% into these things and I appreciate the effort... I just dont like the FACT that its all a lie and they keep pushing that lie.

There was an electric dirt bike manufacturer called Alta Motors (I think Harley bought them?) and I loved the fact that they were so honest: "Im not doing this for the environment. We are doing eDirt bikes because 1) the performance. 2) we are a startup so I want some big brand to buy our know-how for me to get richier."

Perfect! haha

[EstWRC]

With hybrid Rally1 cars now up and running, what can we expect from the next generation? How will they stack up against the outgoing #WRC cars?

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-quick-will-rally1-be-compared-to-world-rally-cars/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

M-Sport happy with progress in Spanish test:

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/m-sport-has-made-good-progress-with-2022-wrc-car-development/6506113/

[AnttiL]

https://twitter.com/HMSGOfficial/status/1392419679063453702

Hyundai Rally1 introduced soon?

[Ivan Rally]

I went to se M-Sport test in Catalunya.
Here is the video,seems nice that Hybrid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_SohWUgZoo&list=PLQwHewPqqALjNxL1XvYZ18hdJy8_XwGXt

[Rallyper]

Well, I don´t change my mind about the car looking heavy and slow. Maybe they just drove in cruising mode, I don´t know...

[EstWRC]

https://twitter.com/HMSGOfficial/status/1392419679063453702

Hyundai Rally1 introduced soon?

yep.

more https://twitter.com/HMSGOfficial/status/1392449722330329089?s=20
https://twitter.com/HMSGOfficial/status/1392480290904363008?s=20

[HKSjbg]

yep.

more https://twitter.com/HMSGOfficial/status/1392449722330329089?s=20
https://twitter.com/HMSGOfficial/status/1392480290904363008?s=20

In that second video you can see just the one door handle. So will they use the ‘scaling’ rule to make a 5-door road car fit onto a 3-door shape? Or is this a mule of the current WRC with body panels and lights from the new car?

[spyros]

Its the new i20.

[lmmjvss]

so many drivers out there (evans, rovampera, neuville, tanak, suninen, meeke, sordo, breen, febvre, lappi, paddon, mikkelsen, ostberg, formaux, kajetan, ingram, solberg, kopecky, lukyanuk...) capable of being racing in the top class... but we have so few cars =[
Any indications that teams will all have at least 3 cars for every round? Will MSport produce some extra cars for "privateers"?

[Jarek Z]

so many drivers out there (evans, rovampera, neuville, tanak, suninen, meeke, sordo, breen, febvre, lappi, paddon, mikkelsen, ostberg, formaux, kajetan, ingram, solberg, kopecky, lukyanuk...) capable of being racing in the top class... but we have so few cars

Yes, that's true. It always makes me sad :(

[lmmjvss]

Random thought...
If we could put Formula-e's engines and batteries on a "roll cage" with some panels to make it looks like a Skoda or a Fiesta... How many stages would that car be able to run? I mean, Formula-e races have 45min on medium to high performance power. If this "eRally car" could run in some of the WRC stages. Like 4 stages per day - Two in the morning, charge/change batteries, two in the afternoon - Couldnt WRC already try an electric class just for the sake of it? Like MotoGP have its own electric class.
I mean... it could even be as powerfull as the R5s or the top class, but running less stages. Maybe just the first loop of the day.

[wyler]

Random thought...
If we could put Formula-e's engines and batteries on a "roll cage" with some panels to make it looks like a Skoda or a Fiesta... How many stages would that car be able to run? I mean, Formula-e races have 45min on medium to high performance power. If this "eRally car" could run in some of the WRC stages. Like 4 stages per day - Two in the morning, charge/change batteries, two in the afternoon - Couldnt WRC already try an electric class just for the sake of it? Like MotoGP have its own electric class.
I mean... it could even be as powerfull as the R5s or the top class, but running less stages. Maybe just the first loop of the day.

in Germany there's the opel corsa ev cup along national rally

[Mirek]

Random thought...
If we could put Formula-e's engines and batteries on a "roll cage" with some panels to make it looks like a Skoda or a Fiesta... How many stages would that car be able to run? I mean, Formula-e races have 45min on medium to high performance power. If this "eRally car" could run in some of the WRC stages. Like 4 stages per day - Two in the morning, charge/change batteries, two in the afternoon - Couldnt WRC already try an electric class just for the sake of it? Like MotoGP have its own electric class.
I mean... it could even be as powerfull as the R5s or the top class, but running less stages. Maybe just the first loop of the day.

That's difficult to estimate. We don't know what is the average power delivered in WRC stage, neither we know what is the average braking power in a WRC stage (and for sure the values from stage to stage will float way more than on circuits). Recuperation data are not available even for Formula E, therefore we can not use even that for some simple math.

54 kWh battery (385 kg weight), with 200 kW maximum output that makes 16 minutes of full output without recuperation.

The easiest we can do is to estimate liaisons. The real power consumption of EVs in traffic per ADAC testing is between 15 to 24 kWh/100 km (from Ionic to Tesla X). Let's take 20 kW/h. In that case the battery is large enough for 270 km of liaison cruising without reserve.

If we consider that the Formula E drives for 45 minutes it means their average power output (minus recuperation) is lower than 72 kW, let's say 70 kW because on circuit they can finish with nearly dry battery. Now let's estimate the same conditions for the rally car, i.e. average delivered power 70 kW (95 Hp) with peak power 200 kW (272 Hp). If we take an average speed of a WRC stage to 100 km/h it means they can do 75 km of stages - without reserve and without liaisons.

But the Formula E weights only 900 kg which is completely unreal for a rally car. With nearly 400 kg of batteries the rally car would be probably around 1400-1500 kg heavy.

What we can take from that is that a rally car with Formula E battery which would be able to do let's say 50 km of stages + 100 km liasion on one battery would be for sure slower than Rally2.

[lmmjvss]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13R9hF0z8Ss&t=1s

Juho in the new Toyota 2022. The car is the 2020 with some new air intakes

[AnttiL]

so many drivers out there (evans, rovampera, neuville, tanak, suninen, meeke, sordo, breen, febvre, lappi, paddon, mikkelsen, ostberg, formaux, kajetan, ingram, solberg, kopecky, lukyanuk...) capable of being racing in the top class... but we have so few cars =[
Any indications that teams will all have at least 3 cars for every round? Will MSport produce some extra cars for "privateers"?

Not all of them are capable of the top class.

[scn]

Do you also see them slower or is it my fault?

[dimviii]

Do you also see them slower or is it my fault?

yes they seem much slower.Early days but the difference is big.

[Mirek]

yes they seem much slower.Early days but the difference is big.

What we have seen can be just first functional tests.

[AnttiL]

It's clear that Rally1 will be slower than current WRC cars. They will have simpler suspension, transmission and aero.

[SubaruNorway]

Will be interesting to see how they jump now since it seems it's mostly front aero that's removed and with those wents as well, Yaris was almost a little boring on the jumps.

Looks like they made a sort of diffuser in the bumper on the Yaris.

[EstWRC]

https://motorsport.hyundai.com/hybrid-preparations-accelerate/?fbclid=IwAR3ujTYn1G0q338hE9A-aAWBdrj5r14NTvZcZnjSqhh7j1lihRmqXznO5GQ



https://scontent.ftll2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/186472610_4305310359534814_6976779012703891202_n.j pg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=uNLfklWwiasAX_RnQo-&_nc_ht=scontent.ftll2-1.fna&oh=3100842efa0fa7f91fc355a5c8576a46&oe=60C7E02F
https://scontent.ftll2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/186522335_4305310672868116_8323592522260870029_n.j pg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=9yD2b_R4LjAAX-cG3hE&_nc_ht=scontent.ftll2-1.fna&oh=800ef4fc671a28eceaafcaea44faab02&oe=60C68C2B
https://scontent.ftll2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/187653609_4305310866201430_3027743626265764572_n.j pg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=KIkXqcdBVBUAX95UbxM&_nc_ht=scontent.ftll2-1.fna&oh=56d2befca627b7eefc9b6b94ee139d5a&oe=60C7580F

[mknight]

At first I also thought that it's mostly front aero, but on second look it's not. The massive rear diffusers get much smaller and also the "hidden ducts" should get removed, which I assume will lead to removal of the "mini diffusers" ahead of rear wheels.

[mknight]

[QUOTE=EstWRC;1270504]https://motorsport.hyundai.com/hybrid-preparations-accelerate/?fbclid=IwAR3ujTYn1G0q338hE9A-aAWBdrj5r14NTvZcZnjSqhh7j1lihRmqXznO5GQ

This looks like very early mule. There is basically no aero at all and very old wing. Something like the mid 2016 testing Yaris.

[dimviii]

This looks like very early mule. There is basically no aero at all and very old wing. Something like the mid 2016 testing Yaris.

if you watch at first photo this mule use new front lights from new generation i20.Something that we havent seen till now if i am not mistaken

[mknight]

if you watch at first photo this mule use new front lights from new generation i20.Something that we havent seen till now if i am not mistaken

It's entirely likely that the "base" is already new. Was reacting to how the outside looks, with basically nothing aerodynamic anywhere (not even rear brake cooling ducts) and what seems like exactly the same wing they used from 2017 to start of 2020. Heck it doesn't even have mirrors!

Kinda reminds me of the very early Yaris test days:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5faWTw9mac

[dimviii]

some closer look at photos posted by Estwrc

http://forum-rallye.com/uploads/monthly_05_2021/post-4717-0-56093100-1621158262.jpg
http://forum-rallye.com/uploads/monthly_05_2021/post-4717-0-84400700-1621158253.jpg
http://forum-rallye.com/uploads/monthly_05_2021/post-4717-0-31603800-1621158244.jpg

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://twitter.com/MiniRallyGT/status/1393908324358295553 reckons the images have been photoshopped...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1goOJEXMAIZuql?format=jpg&name=medium

[TypeR]

Quite a nice and embarrassing fail..

[AnttiL]

Hyundai didn't want their competitors to see those parts?

[pantealex]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13R9hF0z8Ss&t=1s

Juho in the new Toyota 2022. The car is the 2020 with some new air intakes

What do you mean with 2020 ?

That hybrid mule is based on current Yaris GR not old YarisWRC17-21 (different body type)

[Kenneth]

Maybe he meant canceled yaris that were tested for 2021 season

[TypeR]

Lol..
Why all that PShopping :D

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2558724787755061

[AnttiL]

So it's not a photoshopping, it's actually in the livery?

[TypeR]

they were there on IG teaser vid, somehow gone on official photos and now back on real video.. should be quite clear, but okay :D

left ones are official photos, right ones from fans vid
https://i.imgur.com/etd7sPJ.jpg

[mknight]

This is why in multiple fields it's sometimes better not try to hide things.

Anyway Toyota has similar ones, even bigger. So the question is what they are for? Battery cooling since the battery is in the rear? More importantly...where does the air go afterwards?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Maybe Hyundai were trying to confuse matters and dont want to show how far behind the other teams they are with their development ?

The i20N looks very basic and could still be at the stage M-Sport were in March, with no hybrid power and just ballast instead of batteries and e-motor.

[scn]

I am glad you verify that I see correctly. It seems they are significantly slower. But if the gap is small between Rally1 and Rally2, what is the point in having two categories?

[wyler]

I am glad you verify that I see correctly. It seems they are significantly slower. But if the gap is small between Rally1 and Rally2, what is the point in having two categories?

isn'it a bit early to tell this?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Toyota car was full-hybrid:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/toyota-completes-first-full-hybrid-test-with-rally1-yaris/

[scn]

isn'it a bit early to tell this?

Yes it is. This is why the words "It seems" and "if" are in what I wrote.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Toyota's Tom Fowler on the 2022 cars:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/rally1-cars-could-deliver-the-wrcs-ultimate-driver/

[mknight]

I don't get why he means with:
"The 2022 regs take away many of the things that help the driver, with things like the centre differential, the aerodynamics and the fancy front and rear differentials."

What is so fancy with current front and rear difs? They are not active like they used to be in 2006 or so.

Anyway what I do hope and what likely was the goal is that the reduction of "setting possibilities" reduces the benefit of using tons of money on testing (simply because there is less settings to test)
As this likely is the area that caused large part of the gap between MSport and Hyundai/Toyota lately.

[TypeR]

I don't get why he means with:
"The 2022 regs take away many of the things that help the driver, with things like the centre differential, the aerodynamics and the fancy front and rear differentials."

What is so fancy with current front and rear difs? They are not active like they used to be in 2006 or so.

Anyway what I do hope and what likely was the goal is that the reduction of "setting possibilities" reduces the benefit of using tons of money on testing (simply because there is less settings to test)
As this likely is the area that caused large part of the gap between MSport and Hyundai/Toyota lately.

fancy front and rear diffusers would make more sense.. maybe a typo?

[dimviii]

fancy front and rear diffusers would make more sense.. maybe a typo?

not a typo,he was talking about differentials,and not many choices about different ramps.
He talked about just 2 different diff setups for ALL drivers.
so all the drivers of one team,they will not have the ''optimum'' setup at differentials as they like.
They have to drive with the given setup,which maybe is a compromise.
So imho will be a big factor which drivers prefered setup,will be prefered from a team to homologate.

[Mirek]

not a typo,he was talking about differentials,and not many choices about different ramps.
He talked about just 2 different diff setups for ALL drivers.
so all the drivers of one team,they will not have the ''optimum'' setup at differentials as they like.
They have to drive with the given setup,which maybe is a compromise.
So imho will be a big factor which drivers prefered setup,will be prefered from a team to homologate.

That will be a lot of fun in Hyundai...

[mknight]

Hyundai are already saying how they have a lot of new engineers and want to design the new car differently.

The question then is if Neuville can adapt to a different car or if they try to make it for Neuville and Tanak might struggle.

Mostly relevant on tarmac where Neuville still uses more open diffs and handbrake to turn on most corners (see Targa Florio vids).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's weird why the Hyundai has always the one with the set-up issues (for different drivers).

The current-spec Fiesta WRC and Yaris WRC have both been driven by a lot of different top drivers and without any such major problems.

Surely Hyundai can now also make their (new) car suitable for all driving styles.

[lmmjvss]

Dammit I often read something online and then I cant stop thinking about how these Hybrids will hurt WRC...
Back in 2017 they had new cars that were more expensive, faster, louder, with huge aero and we went crazy about it... And look at it now: 8ish cars in the top class, VW left, Citroen left, Ford is not really there... not to mention the talent out there in Rally2 that should be in WRC, like Lappi, Breen or even Mads, Mikkelsen, Paddon and Sordo for example... but theres no cars and theres no chances of a privateer having the $ to compete at the top level. Idk, now we are getting into hybrids and like... for what?
Not sure this is going to work. I know theres nothing we can do and Im going to love to watch them in the next years but aaaahhhhh.. its just ... aaaaaah
haha

[Mirek]

Dammit I often read something online and then I cant stop thinking about how these Hybrids will hurt WRC...
Back in 2017 they had new cars that were more expensive, faster, louder, with huge aero and we went crazy about it... And look at it now: 8ish cars in the top class, VW left, Citroen left, Ford is not really there... not to mention the talent out there in Rally2 that should be in WRC, like Lappi, Breen or even Mads, Mikkelsen, Paddon and Sordo for example... but theres no cars and theres no chances of a privateer having the $ to compete at the top level. Idk, now we are getting into hybrids and like... for what?
Not sure this is going to work. I know theres nothing we can do and Im going to love to watch them in the next years but aaaahhhhh.. its just ... aaaaaah
haha

For the current manufacturers to not leave. They made themselves clear about it.

[lmmjvss]

For the current manufacturers to not leave. They made themselves clear about it.

I know... I know... but Lets see for 'how long' they will continue in WRC (and how many less cars we are going to have in the top class for 2022 and 2023)

[EstWRC]

Toyota continues their test in Portugal https://twitter.com/pauloar23028946/status/1397258425457905665?s=21

[mknight]

I still wonder where the air from the rear cooling vents goes. Especially since aerodynamic effects from "hidden ducts" are not allowed.
On the Toyota it might look like it goes to the "diffuser" in the bumper which is not really a diffuser but just an exit of this air. I guess they then judge that it is not "hidden" duct and that means it's allowed?

EDIT: Nvm Lluis pointed that out already a month ago:
https://www.wrcwings.tech/2021/05/04/on-the-aero-of-the-2022-wrc-cars/

[lmmjvss]

I still wonder where the air from the rear cooling vents goes.[/url]

Maybe its for the batteries?

[drive]

That is yes, but what comes in has to go out somewhere - that is the question Where?

[bomber21]

I know... I know... but Lets see for 'how long' they will continue in WRC (and how many less cars we are going to have in the top class for 2022 and 2023)
We do not know how long they will stay. But we do know they would leave WRC right now if hybrids wouldn’t come.

[pedro16]

That is yes, but what comes in has to go out somewhere - that is the question Where?

2106
2107

[lmmjvss]

We do not know how long they will stay. But we do know they would leave WRC right now if hybrids wouldn’t come.

I know its not comparable but World Rallycross lost audi, ford, vw and peugeot in 2018. Both 2019 and 2020 seasons without manufactures were WAY better. Rally2 cars would become the fastest cars out there. But it could also go very badly like "Oh, now theres a few toyotas racing alone on the front" (wec)

[Mirek]

I know its not comparable but World Rallycross lost audi, ford, vw and peugeot in 2018. Both 2019 and 2020 seasons without manufactures were WAY better. Rally2 cars would become the fastest cars out there. But it could also go very badly like "Oh, now theres a few toyotas racing alone on the front" (wec)

The whole WRC circus is paid by manufacturers and their rich sponsors. Without them WRC will quickly become another ERC with few overseas evens where nobody goes. ERC in turn will suffer as well because the same pool of privateers can't keep two major series alive in the same time.

[lmmjvss]

The whole WRC circus is paid by manufacturers and their rich sponsors. Without them WRC will quickly become another ERC with few overseas evens where nobody goes. ERC in turn will suffer as well because the same pool of privateers can't keep two major series alive in the same time.

Hmmm I guess this is true. But imagine a Monte Carlo rally where "any rally2 car" could have a shot to win, for example. That'd be interesting. Same for big rallies like Acropolis, Sweden, Finland... maybe Safari too? haha Idk, just chatting here. Inside our head we have the solutions for all the problems but in real life its not like that.. saddly

[denkimi]

The whole WRC circus is paid by manufacturers and their rich sponsors. Without them WRC will quickly become another ERC with few overseas evens where nobody goes. ERC in turn will suffer as well because the same pool of privateers can't keep two major series alive in the same time.
Yet, perhaps the greatest championships we have seen in the last 20 years were the IRC years. When we had so many different cars and so many privateers.

[cali]

Hmmm I guess this is true. But imagine a Monte Carlo rally where "any rally2 car" could have a shot to win, for example. That'd be interesting. Same for big rallies like Acropolis, Sweden, Finland... maybe Safari too? haha Idk, just chatting here. Inside our head we have the solutions for all the problems but in real life its not like that.. saddlyYou are describing an IRC series, but then again we had Skoda etc taking part in the series

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[mknight]

I know its not comparable but World Rallycross lost audi, ford, vw and peugeot in 2018. Both 2019 and 2020 seasons without manufactures were WAY better. Rally2 cars would become the fastest cars out there. But it could also go very badly like "Oh, now theres a few toyotas racing alone on the front" (wec)

I followed WRX when it was Solberg, Loeb, Kristoffer son. Ekstrom, Block..
When manus and almost all these stopped I stopped. Got a bit too much second rate drivers feeling.

[mknight]

Yet, perhaps the greatest championships we have seen in the last 20 years were the IRC years. When we had so many different cars and so many privateers.

IRC was good first two years...then Skoda completely dominated it and fun was over. Whether it was due to money or just good work I am not so sure. Prbly both.

[lluisva555]

2106
2107

Also the Hyundai seems to use the space of the old rear diffuser for the air vent. In this location, it can help to remove air from under the car, same principle as with the exhaust gases on top of the diffuser (exhaust blown diffuser)... it will depend on how fast hot air can be removed from the inside of the car, with the help of fans after the rear radiator

[denkimi]

IRC was good first two years...then Skoda completely dominated it and fun was over. Whether it was due to money or just good work I am not so sure. Prbly both.
Although the skoda was indeed the best car overall, others cars still had a good chance.

But what made IRC so good is that we had many privateers and one off's. You didn't have to be in a factory car to be able to fight for the win. Yes, driving a proton wouldn't give you much chance, but there were many private skoda's, fiesta's and peugeot's available.

Even in the last year we had 6 different winners. Even 8 if you count the two rallies that nobody went to.

[Mirek]

Yet, perhaps the greatest championships we have seen in the last 20 years were the IRC years. When we had so many different cars and so many privateers.

It was not. I liked it but it was very far from being the greatest championship. There were strong events mixed with events where nearly nobody went (Russia, Brazil for example) and even events where literaly nobody went (China 2008, Safari 2009). Everything good was held in Europe (with likely only exception being Argentina but that is still debatable). You can't replace World Championship with a series where everything worth talking about happens only in Europe.

[denkimi]

It was not. I liked it but it was very far from being the greatest championship. There were strong events mixed with events where nearly nobody went (Russia, Brazil for example) and even events where literaly nobody went (China 2008, Safari 2009). Everything good was held in Europe (with likely only exception being Argentina but that is still debatable). You can't replace World Championship with a series where everything worth talking about happens only in Europe.
and what's the difference with the wrc?

out of 14 rallies this year, there are 2 outside of europe. And its doubtfull kenya and japan will even go through.

face it, rallying is a european sport.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/testing-of-m-sports-2022-wrc-car-continues-with-spain-test/6515895/

Wilson believes the impending new rules cycle – which runs from 2022 until December 2024 – is going to put the World Rally Championship in an even stronger position because of the speed of Rally1 cars.

The 2022 regulations introduce an extra 134bhp from the e-motor developed by Compact Dynamics.

“We are in for another very, very exciting era,” said Wilson. “I have to say: seeing the car in Greystoke [in the UK], I was quite shocked at the pace and, to be honest, that was well before we were running full hybrid. I believe now it’s even more impressive with the hybrid running up to almost full capacity.

[lmmjvss]

I followed WRX when it was Solberg, Loeb, Kristoffer son. Ekstrom, Block..
When manus and almost all these stopped I stopped. Got a bit too much second rate drivers feeling.

2019 season without manufacturers and big stars was the best one. And then In 2020 Johan and Mattias returned... and then it was the best one ever! =P

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Heard a suggestion that the 2022 M-Sport car could use the Mustang Mach-e as it's base car as way to get more support from Ford Performance USA.

I'm not convinced as that's all-electric - my money is still on the Puma as its sold as a hybrid.

[Lancia Stratos]

and what's the difference with the wrc?

out of 14 rallies this year, there are 2 outside of europe. And its doubtfull kenya and japan will even go through.

face it, rallying is a european sport.

I don't think there are any doubts about Kenya.

[lmmjvss]

random thoughts again but I still find this hybrid thing weird and cannot wrap my head around that.
Today I woke up with the news that BMW will also build a LMDh car (Cuz LMDh can race in Daytona too). What is so atractive in Hybrid cars that Im missing out? I mean, cuz that class is totally spec for the Hybrid parts. I believe even the chassis are required to be "spec" (only 2 oem will build chassis?) for LMDh.
Porsche, Audi, Acura. Plus the LMPH for Toyota, Peugeot, Ferrari, ByKolles, Glickenhaus (you build the whole car but they have BoP to compete with LMDh) Plus the rumors with Cadillac and Lamborghini...
LeMans is huge but wec is not a big championship... is Hybrid "spec" tech really that interesting for all these brands? Was wrc being serious when saying "Hybrid wrc is the most atractive model ever"?

[doubled1978]

random thoughts again but I still find this hybrid thing weird and cannot wrap my head around that.
Today I woke up with the news that BMW will also build a LMDh car (Cuz LMDh can race in Daytona too). What is so atractive in Hybrid cars that Im missing out? I mean, cuz that class is totally spec for the Hybrid parts. I believe even the chassis are required to be "spec" (only 2 oem will build chassis?) for LMDh.
Porsche, Audi, Acura. Plus the LMPH for Toyota, Peugeot, Ferrari, ByKolles, Glickenhaus (you build the whole car but they have BoP to compete with LMDh) Plus the rumors with Cadillac and Lamborghini...
LeMans is huge but wec is not a big championship... is Hybrid "spec" tech really that interesting for all these brands? Was wrc being serious when saying "Hybrid wrc is the most atractive model ever"?

It’s not the tech that’s interesting to them, it’s the ability to go and win some of the big races for a fraction of the cost required previously, while still being on message with hybrid etc.
The LMDh cars will likely be sold as customer cars as well, making the whole thing potentially cost neutral.
Le Mans/WEC/IMSA have finally come up with something that sports cars have needed for ever basically, a low cost (relatively), development capped (BOP) , global formula.
The grid of Le Mans 2023 will be pretty impressive, and they ‘should’ all be competitive through BOP.

[traxx]

Yves Matton ( https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/wrc-teams-to-be-offered-strategies-for-hybrid-use-in-2022/6557994/ ) :

"We have the main principles. Mainly it will be used on some road sections in full electric mode

"It will be used at the start of the stage, also where you will have both hybrid and the internal combustion engine giving you full power, and then under conditions it will be used in the stage to bring in some performance to the car following different programmes that you will be able to fine-tune.

"You will not have a button to use the power, it will be more a software and under conditions you will have the power.

"You will have a number of different strategies that you will be able to choose but the driver will not be able to set up the strategies by themselves. The system we are working on is for all the stages."

[AndyRAC]

It’s not the tech that’s interesting to them, it’s the ability to go and win some of the big races for a fraction of the cost required previously, while still being on message with hybrid etc.
The LMDh cars will likely be sold as customer cars as well, making the whole thing potentially cost neutral.
Le Mans/WEC/IMSA have finally come up with something that sports cars have needed for ever basically, a low cost (relatively), development capped (BOP) , global formula.
The grid of Le Mans 2023 will be pretty impressive, and they ‘should’ all be competitive through BOP.

It should be epic - the only fly in the ointment could be the BoP - but we'll wait and see about that, as it can/could get a bit political. However, they're doing something right - and rumours that GM are showing interest.
Yet the WRC has just 3 manufacturers......something isn't working for the WRC.

[bomber21]

McLaren is also joining ExtremeE. Their CEO posted a video and he said “sustainability” numerous times. This is what manufacturers want to “sell”. Sustainability and diversity. We have no other option in WRC if we want manufacturers to join. WRC needs to “sell” sustainability and diversity.

[lmmjvss]

Alejandro Agag is also releasing a new electric championship with e-boats haha Its called e1 series, with electric powerboats or something like that. Theres also a new "eSkootr" (scooters) championship about to be released and the "electric touring car championship" (pure etcr - soon to be renamed as e-tc world cup) starts next weekend. I guess you guys are right... its all about the "Message".... even knowing that no one will save the planet by creating more and more expensive racing championships... It pisses me off cuz racing has this huuuge potential of being the plattform for battery development... but nope. Its all spec.
Things are weird

[doubled1978]

WRC needs to get realistic about the cost to compete, the series was 1 Hyundai board decision away from having just Toyota and MSport competing, with cars too expensive for privateers to run to make the numbers up as we had with Citroen/Ford.
WRC gets away with a lot, because it’s not circuit racing and offers something different, but things like Exteme-E will put pressure on that.

[the sniper]

It should be epic - the only fly in the ointment could be the BoP - but we'll wait and see about that, as it can/could get a bit political. However, they're doing something right - and rumours that GM are showing interest.
Yet the WRC has just 3 manufacturers......something isn't working for the WRC.

I'm dreading the BoP battles of that era. I fear it'll completely undermine the racing. Sportscar fans were always the biggest purists, I don't know how any of them can stomach the prospect of this.

[lmmjvss]

A clip from the Toyota LMPH going from electric to the petrol engine. Nice sound
https://9gag.com/gag/aV729wv

[Mirek]

McLaren is also joining ExtremeE. Their CEO posted a video and he said “sustainability” numerous times. This is what manufacturers want to “sell”. Sustainability and diversity. We have no other option in WRC if we want manufacturers to join. WRC needs to “sell” sustainability and diversity.

The problem of WRC is that at our current technological level it can not be run with what the manufacturers want to promote. It's not much about will but more about technological limitations.

[AndyRAC]

WRC needs to get realistic about the cost to compete, the series was 1 Hyundai board decision away from having just Toyota and M-Sport competing, with cars too expensive for privateers to run to make the numbers up as we had with Citroen/Ford.
WRC gets away with a lot, because it’s not circuit racing and offers something different, but things like Extreme-E will put pressure on that.

You could argue, that possibly, currently, it's not offering anything different enough....And the returns just aren't worth it. But Matton seems to think it will be all okay....

[AnttiL]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/wrc-teams-to-be-offered-strategies-for-hybrid-use-in-2022/6557994/

Hybrid boost not used through button but software

[SubaruNorway]

Will there be set points using GPS where they run it on the road sections to make sure everyone uses the same?

[adr17]

I don't get why he means with:
"The 2022 regs take away many of the things that help the driver, with things like the centre differential, the aerodynamics and the fancy front and rear differentials."

What is so fancy with current front and rear difs? They are not active like they used to be in 2006 or so.

Anyway what I do hope and what likely was the goal is that the reduction of "setting possibilities" reduces the benefit of using tons of money on testing (simply because there is less settings to test)
As this likely is the area that caused large part of the gap between MSport and Hyundai/Toyota lately.

The current front and rear differentials , have the ability to change positive preload and negative preload , normal by nitrogen gas inserted it a piston chamber , during service you can open a bung insert a needle connected to a gas bottle and adjust the pressure to change the setting

When it used to be mechanically adjusted by a thread system with temperature change it change preload , and in some cases if a low setting was chosen it would wind off in time , the gas system is more consistent , also adding adjustment of negative preload added another dimension of adjustment esp on the front diff to aid turn in

This was first used in the polo in 2014 and Citroen ds3 , msport first used in 2015 car

[mknight]

Thanks for the info. What will the change be then? No possibility to change preload without changing whole diff?

[Eli]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/matton-wrc-not-expecting-new-marque-until-2024-at-the-earliest/6568200/

In short, don't expect any miracles before 2024.

[Red bull]

https://www.wrcwings.tech/2021/06/14/2022-wrc-car-tech-specs-regulations-what-we-know-so-far/

[the sniper]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/matton-wrc-not-expecting-new-marque-until-2024-at-the-earliest/6568200/

In short, don't expect any miracles before 2024.

Pretty critical that M-Sport be given a helping hand to bring them up to (or at least closer to) the support level of the Manufacturer teams. Here's hoping the Promoter/Red Bull step up to the plate...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Wishful thinking from Matton IMO.

Even if another Manufacturer was interested enough to want to join the WRC (in 2024), I cant see them doing so as it'll be so hard to then be competitive against the established teams.

[AndyRAC]

The Manufacturers are out there, they're interested in a motorsport programme; however, the WRC isn't the series they wish to enter. And, as I keep asking, why?? The answer isn't what we want to hear.

[HKSjbg]

Wishful thinking from Matton IMO.

Even if another Manufacturer was interested enough to want to join the WRC (in 2024), I cant see them doing so as it'll be so hard to then be competitive against the established teams.

Could’ve easily said that about Toyota coming fresh into WRC in 2017 no?

[mknight]

Could’ve easily said that about Toyota coming fresh into WRC in 2017 no?

No. Toyota entered at the same time as a major rule change occurred, leveling the playing field a bit.

At the moment I don't see any major rule change planned for 2024, earliest 2025 afaik.

[fiscorpun]

3 manfacturers is fine. It is a great number. I see people wanting more brands and more cars but 3 brands and 8 or 9 cars is already a great number. I mean, its never good to have too many brands cuz they eventually leave because they cant win. Only one brand can win per year. And when one leaves, others may follow them for that same reason. The car count is low right now but its also fine. We probably dont have the 8 best rally drivers in the championship's top class right now but we can also follow them in wrc2, erc and national championships.
About the hybrid. I think its just great cuz we can have petrol cars in the stages and "electric" on the streets in between stages, following the european rules. Its great. I dont think we are ready for all electric cars on stages yet.. And I dont think R5s are the best we should have. So we have the best from both worlds!
WRC is doing fine. Its difficult to promote, but it has always been difficult to promote. This is where it could improve a little, maybe? It'd be cool to add a "green propaganda" thing too. (sorry!)
With the bio fuels and with the electric engine for the streets.
I remember being on Indycar foruns back in 2012-2014 where the fan base kept complaining about wantinig more and more manufacturers (they just had 3 in 2012, which was awesome) making it always looks that "Oh, so the championship is in a bad situation right now cuz theres no more manfacturers?" - but they had been the greatest seasons ever.
WRC 2022 will be great. Dont worry!

[TypeR]

3 manfacturers is fine. It is a great number. I see people wanting more brands and more cars but 3 brands and 8 or 9 cars is already a great number. I mean, its never good to have too many brands cuz they eventually leave because they cant win. Only one brand can win per year. And when one leaves, others may follow them for that same reason. The car count is low right now but its also fine. We probably dont have the 8 best rally drivers in the championship's top class right now but we can also follow them in wrc2, erc and national championships.
About the hybrid. I think its just great cuz we can have petrol cars in the stages and "electric" on the streets in between stages, following the european rules. Its great. I dont think we are ready for all electric cars on stages yet.. And I dont think R5s are the best we should have. So we have the best from both worlds!
WRC is doing fine. Its difficult to promote, but it has always been difficult to promote. This is where it could improve a little, maybe? It'd be cool to add a "green propaganda" thing too. (sorry!)
With the bio fuels and with the electric engine for the streets.
WRC 2022 will be great. Dont worry!
Yves Matton, is that you?!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Could’ve easily said that about Toyota coming fresh into WRC in 2017 no?

You could say that about VW coming in 2013. But they were an automotive monster and put everything in to he the very best, not just 'competitive'. Plus they also bought a certain (now 7x Champion) Mr Ogier.

[EstWRC]

clips of Hyundai with Tänak in Finland

https://twitter.com/JPekanpalo/status/1404841009826222084?s=20
https://twitter.com/JPekanpalo/status/1404841235458711558?s=20

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3_3uHYUcAIBJNM?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3_3vtRUcAMVFNe?format=jpg&name=large

credit https://twitter.com/JPekanpalo/status/1404841009826222084

[fiscorpun]

Yves Matton, is that you?!

hahahahhahaha mmmmmaybe?
just kidding. No Im not, sorry mate =P

[denkimi]

F1 has managed for many years to get at least 10 teams on the grid. In the past they had often way more candidates than available places.
Meanwhile wrc struggles to keep 2 teams.

The difference? F1 does not require an official car maker to build a car. F1 does not require expensive homologation procedures that can only be done by some big marque.

Anyone who can find the money should be able to build a wrc car. I'm sure a lot of compagnies could build very capable cars if they would be allowed to.

[SubaruNorway]

F1 has managed for many years to get at least 10 teams on the grid. In the past they had often way more candidates than available places.
Meanwhile wrc struggles to keep 2 teams.

The difference? F1 does not require an official car maker to build a car. F1 does not require expensive homologation procedures that can only be done by some big marque.

Anyone who can find the money should be able to build a wrc car. I'm sure a lot of compagnies could build very capable cars if they would be allowed to.

Yet it did cost Mercedes $5,490,812 just to enter in 2020...

[mknight]

F1 directly pays money to teams, in these old numbers from 2016 it was 42 million USD to every team. With point bonuses even the weakest team got 56 mil:

https://sillyseason.com/money/formula-1-prize-money-118349/

Afaik WRC teams get nothing.

[denkimi]

Yet it did cost Mercedes $5,490,812 just to enter in 2020...
They pay their enty fee based on the amount of points they had the year before. Williams payd 562.000 euro entry fee.

And at the end of the year mercedes got 177 million back as price money, while williams received 60 million.


Meanwhile every wrc factory team must pay 326.000 euro's and gets nothing back for winning.

[the sniper]

F1 has managed for many years to get at least 10 teams on the grid. In the past they had often way more candidates than available places.
Meanwhile wrc struggles to keep 2 teams.

The difference? F1 does not require an official car maker to build a car. F1 does not require expensive homologation procedures that can only be done by some big marque.

Anyone who can find the money should be able to build a wrc car. I'm sure a lot of compagnies could build very capable cars if they would be allowed to.

If F1 could get away with having three Constructors, with all the teams using those three cars, they arguably would. Even with it being against the spirit of the rules, you have aspects of it with Ferrari & Haas, Mercedes & Force India/Aston Martin, Red Bull & Toro Rosso/AlphaTauri.

If anything, having to build your own car has been a major limiting factor for F1 entries.

F1 has managed to avoid going down to 16 cars at various points because the Promoter/Bernie got involved, because if the number of cars dropped bellow that it had various contractual implications for the promoter. That's why Jordan and Minardi in their various forms survived the superpower years.

If the WRC were in the same position as F1, it'd be ideally suited to the likes of Qatar/Abu Dhabi, Lukoil or Lotos or even Red Bull running their own private Yaris, I20 or Fiestas teams with equipment from the manufacturers.

[AndyRAC]

To be honest, I don't think any series can/ should try to compare themselves to F1. It's just a huge juggernaut that pulls in massive numbers worldwide and generates money most other series can only dream of.

MotoGP has factory, and satellite teams, which ensures a healthy grid. So you'll have Honda, Yamaha, Ducati, Suzuki, KTM & Aprilia all with factory teams, plus the satellites. And it works - producing the most competitive racing around.

[AnttiL]

https://twitter.com/MiikaWuorela/status/1405488151620206600

Comparison of the same jump from Neuville's test in 2018 and today with Rally1 car.

[wyler]

https://twitter.com/MiikaWuorela/status/1405488151620206600

Comparison of the same jump from Neuville's test in 2018 and today with Rally1 car.

also worth mentioning (especially for the tw and comments) that 2018 was already after 1 year of competition and devs, not the first run.

[AnttiL]

also worth mentioning (especially for the tw and comments) that 2018 was already after 1 year of competition and devs, not the first run.

Yes, we would need same footage from the 2016 tests of the 2017 cars.

Here's Tänak on the 2016 Fiesta https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjfzRkeDxw

[Sulland]

3 manfacturers is fine. It is a great number. I see people wanting more brands and more cars but 3 brands and 8 or 9 cars is already a great number.

I am sorry, but I disagree with you.

Following your indycar thought.
They have 1 or two chassis, and two or three engine manus. All need to sell to whatever team that want to buy. So a bit different. I like the US thinking on this, but in rally the car manus need to do PR.

When i come to manus I would like to have 5, or that each of the 3 get a comercial satelite team. The atrition on cars is so high, that we more and more often see 3 or more Rally2 cars on top 10.

[fiscorpun]

I am sorry, but I disagree with you.

Following your indycar thought.
They have 1 or two chassis, and two or three engine manus. All need to sell to whatever team that want to buy. So a bit different. I like the US thinking on this, but in rally the car manus need to do PR.

When i come to manus I would like to have 5, or that each of the 3 get a comercial satelite team. The atrition on cars is so high, that we more and more often see 3 or more Rally2 cars on top 10.

- Right, but what would be the point in having +15 rally1 cars if the real fight is between only 2 or 3 drivers in almost every round?

- On the Indycar exemple what I meant was that the fan base spent years complaining that they needed more and more brands to the point where the "online community" became so toxic that we werent enjoying the actual racing, we were stuck in this loop of "oh we need more manufacturers". It made the whole experience a little bit worst, u'know? ...while we were having amazing championships going on ON-track. I think that was my point and I have been noticing the same thing starting in WRC groups/forums. I never posted here before. Just wanted to chat about this. We should not forget how amazing WRC is right now just cuz "9 cars are not enough". It is! Imagine next year without Ogier and new cars! Anyone could win!

[denkimi]

- Right, but what would be the point in having +15 rally1 cars if the real fight is between only 2 or 3 drivers in almost every round?

F1 has been like that for most years and still attracts huge crowds.

By that logic we would only need 5 cars per rally.

[AndyRAC]

Right, but what would be the point in having +15 rally1 cars if the real fight is between only 2 or 3 drivers in almost every round?



You obviously don't remember the late 90s/ early 00s; when we had plenty of manufacturers, and lots of competition, and plenty of different drivers winning rounds. If you think the same 2-3 drivers fighting for wins is acceptable, then you're easily pleased. And won't be a great selling point for the sport.....

[fiscorpun]

You obviously don't remember the late 90s/ early 00s; when we had plenty of manufacturers, and lots of competition, and plenty of different drivers winning rounds. If you think the same 2-3 drivers fighting for wins is acceptable, then you're easily pleased. And won't be a great selling point for the sport.....

What I meant was that in every round theres only 2 or 3 drivers "between all nine rally1 drivers" (like - round1: ogier vs neuville, round2: tanak vs ogier, round3: sordo vs evans... and no other driver being capable of catching them for that round) so we dont actually need to have 15 or 20 cars in the top class because it would be just 2 or 3 fighting anyway.
Of course I WANT to see a top class with 65 entries, dont get me wrong. I think my point is that we dont "need" more than '9' cars right now.
We 'WANT', but we dont "need".
Sorry for my bad english if Im not expressing myself in the proper way, mate.

[seb_sh]

What I meant was that in every round theres only 2 or 3 drivers "between all nine rally1 drivers" (like - round1: ogier vs neuville, round2: tanak vs ogier, round3: sordo vs evans... and no other driver being capable of catching them for that round) so we dont actually need to have 15 or 20 cars in the top class because it would be just 2 or 3 fighting anyway.
Of course I WANT to see a top class with 65 entries, dont get me wrong. I think my point is that we dont "need" more than '9' cars right now.
We 'WANT', but we dont "need".
Sorry for my bad english if Im not expressing myself in the proper way, mate.

True if you look at a rally in isolation but for me 9 cars is a bit low for a championship. You start the rally and not even all points giving places are covered. Then you need 4-5 cars for the "top" guys out of which hopefully 2-3 can fight for the win. You also need some cars for new guys for a couple of years to evolve and learn the cars. And finally in my opinion which some may disagree but I think you need 2-3 cars with slow or pay drivers for a healthy series, somebody has to finish last and show us just how good the top guys are and if they bring money even better. So I think 12 cars would be the lower limit and idealy it would be somewhere around 15-16.

[1988senna]

is there any video （better for 3d animation）that could explain how the hybrid rally car work?
I just wish to know 1.the function of hybrid car
2 the difference between the hybrid and the current car

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-ford-puma-rally1-story-so-far/

https://www.m-sport.co.uk/single-post/ford-and-m-sport-reveal-new-puma-rally1-wrc-prototype-electrifying-hybrid-performance-breaks-cover

[Fast Eddie WRC]

More interesting info on the Fiesta Rally1 from CAR Magazine & their journo given a passenger ride:

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/amp/car-news/first-official-pictures/ford/wrc-rally1-puma

[AnttiL]

More interesting info on the Fiesta Rally1 from CAR Magazine & their journo given a passenger ride:

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/amp/car-news/first-official-pictures/ford/wrc-rally1-puma

Or Puma, whichever you prefer ;)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Or Puma, whichever you prefer ;)

Ha ha - Puma is going to take some getting used to !

[AnttiL]

I thought you joked how the car is actually a Fiesta in a Puma disguise :P

[pantealex]

Ha ha - Puma is going to take some getting used to !

Was it as hard for you when Focus turned to Fiesta ?

Do you even remember when Escort become Focus ?

[mknight]

Do you even remember when Escort become Focus ?

You'd have to be blind not to see THAT difference.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Matt Wilson on the Puma test in Finland...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-2022-rally1-cars-handle-in-high-speed-finland/

[mknight]

Matt Wilson on the Puma test in Finland...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-2022-rally1-cars-handle-in-high-speed-finland/

The whole article kind of contradicts itself...

saying how awesome the new car is in Finland based on Matt Wilson who said he hasn't driven in Finland in 10 years (so not current gen cars) and Fourmaux who only drove R2 (not Rally2) car there in 2019 (dunno about tests).

Sure it might feel great to drive, but hard to say how it compares to current car in Finland based on feedback from these two.

[MentalParadox]

The whole article kind of contradicts itself...

saying how awesome the new car is in Finland based on Matt Wilson who said he hasn't driven in Finland in 10 years (so not current gen cars) and Fourmaux who only drove R2 (not Rally2) car there in 2019 (dunno about tests).

Sure it might feel great to drive, but hard to say how it compares to current car in Finland based on feedback from these two.

These media outlets have a self-imposed obligation to be positive about the sport, no matter what happens. Sometimes this leads to hilarious cases of doublethink, like when Dirtfish claimed that the Safari was only a fraction of its former length, yet the challenge had not been diminished - all in the same sentence. Now that we're on this topic, have you ever know any WRC pundit to be openly critical of something the sport is doing? Of course not, the sport is a business and they are its employees.