Stupid rules in WRC cirkus or how to change for the better [Archive]

Rallyper

24th January 2021, 13:38

Think this thread is needed. Here we can develop our thoughts about crazy rules, as in a particular way was shown in RMC 2021.

Should we change things to the better finding out rallies are decided on liasions?

Are there other things to be changed gaining the sport better ways of reaching new fans? (WRC2/3 rules, pointsscoring systems etz, etz)

PLuto

24th January 2021, 14:33

I think we all will agree that system WRC2 / WRC2 Teams / WRC3 for R5 cars is crazy and should be changed. It is "updated" every year, but situation is less and less clear...

dimviii

24th January 2021, 15:14

So Pluto if it was up to you,what did you have to do?

Mirek

24th January 2021, 15:28

Should we change things to the better finding out rallies are decided on liasions?

Rallies have been desided on liaisons since forever. Liaison is part of the rally route just like the stage is.

There have been accidents on liaisons, time penalties for being late/too early in time controls. Cars have run out of fuel, out of electricity after alternator failure, overheated due to pierced radiators. Police stopped the competitors for speeding, police stopped them for violating other rules (driving on three wheels is a good example of an act which is in clear violation of traffic law). Crews have been excluded for not following the route given by the itinerary, for coming into time controls in wrong direction...

Simply said, nobody won a rally on the liaison but many lost it there. It's part of the game.

AnttiL

24th January 2021, 16:15

When rallying started, most of the rallies were just liaisons. Rallies like Safari were basically nothing but liaisons. I don't see a problem with having liaisons. This is what separates rallying from other motorsports.

AnttiL

24th January 2021, 16:18

I think we all will agree that system WRC2 / WRC2 Teams / WRC3 for R5 cars is crazy and should be changed. It is "updated" every year, but situation is less and less clear...

- One single WRC2 series
- WRC2 manufacturer/team championship
- Privateer cup for drivers who are not within manufacturer/teams. But privateers score also WRC2 points.

Not sure if it's that much simpler though...

Rallyper

24th January 2021, 20:44

Rallies have been desided on liaisons since forever. Liaison is part of the rally route just like the stage is.

There have been accidents on liaisons, time penalties for being late/too early in time controls. Cars have run out of fuel, out of electricity after alternator failure, overheated due to pierced radiators. Police stopped the competitors for speeding, police stopped them for violating other rules (driving on three wheels is a good example of an act which is in clear violation of traffic law). Crews have been excluded for not following the route given by the itinerary, for coming into time controls in wrong direction...

Simply said, nobody won a rally on the liaison but many lost it there. It's part of the game.

All those situations mentioned had a disfunctional car or violating common traffic rules. Fans want to see their topdrivers. Don´t let them out becaause of lack of wheel to get to SP. That´s at least my opinion. And I stand for it.

Talking about liasions and back in the days. Monte started in cities all over Europe. Want to go back to those times, with 2500 - 3000K liasions??

Rally Power

24th January 2021, 20:58

It's impossible to avoid liaisons problems to happen but bringing road legal issues into the sporting rules is a way to open a Pandora's box.

We're now talking about the 3 wheels but what will happen when someone reminds to exclude cars without lights or body panels, once they also don't respect traffic rules? To the limit we'll be excluding all crews with a damaged car, making any touch or off eliminatory.

Other brainless penalties seen on this RMC were related to corner cuts on SS4/7; 'extreme' corner cuts are part of the sport and unless there's a clear spectator risk they shouldn't be penalized.

On the WRC2/3 split, a privateer's Cup was always the obvious solution to avoid Rally2 competitors dispersion. Sadly, Matton seems to be the only living soul thinking differently...

cali

24th January 2021, 21:01

Rallyper

24th January 2021, 21:10

A top driver or top team should know better. If not it's their own loss. They took a gamble and lost. Rules are for a reason otherwise we all would drive around on 3 wheels. Get over it now, the series acts within these rule frames which is known to all participants. If you risk it or don't know the rules it's nobody elses fault.

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It´s in the interest of everybody, organizers, promoters, sponsors, fans, to watch the drivers do what they are good at: driving fast on stages. Rules could be changed if just take a look from above. And adjust rules so that a driver missing a spare wouldn´t be excluded. (ACM rules differs, if they didn´t, this maybe wasn´t as big problem)

I´ll be silent in that matter now. :) :)

cali

24th January 2021, 21:13

It´s in the interest of everybody, organizers, promoters, sponsors, fans, to watch the drivers do what they are good at: driving fast on stages. Rules could be changed if just take a look from above. And adjust rules so that a driver missing a spare wouldn´t be excluded. (ACM rules differs, if they didn´t, this maybe wasn´t as big problem)

I´ll be silent in that matter now. :) :)Well that's easy - why wouldnt you (in our case Tänak) take 2 spares with you and problem solved :)

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Steve Boyd

25th January 2021, 00:34

It´s in the interest of everybody, organizers, promoters, sponsors, fans, to watch the drivers do what they are good at: driving fast on stages. Rules could be changed if just take a look from above. And adjust rules so that a driver missing a spare wouldn´t be excluded. (ACM rules differs, if they didn´t, this maybe wasn´t as big problem)

I´ll be silent in that matter now. :) :)
So how many spare wheels are you going to need after every stage and what happens to the guy who turns up with a puncture when they've all been used up?
Maybe we should just go back to mousse filled tyres.

cali

25th January 2021, 04:12

So how many spare wheels are you going to need after every stage and what happens to the guy who turns up with a puncture when they've all been used up?
Maybe we should just go back to mousse filled tyres.At every stage end drivers can go to spare wheel flea market

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AnttiL

25th January 2021, 07:08

Other brainless penalties seen on this RMC were related to corner cuts on SS4/7; 'extreme' corner cuts are part of the sport and unless there's a clear spectator risk they shouldn't be penalized.

Far from brainless. It's just a way to remind the competitors that this kind of cutting should not be done, the route should be equal for all drivers.

AnttiL

25th January 2021, 09:06

AnttiL

25th January 2021, 09:29

Good article about the three-wheel rule

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/whats-the-rule-that-tanak-broke/

Franky

25th January 2021, 09:29

Think most modern cars come with a repair kit instead of a spare wheel. Just not sure if they'd work for sidewall damage.

Rallyper

25th January 2021, 12:11

Mirek

25th January 2021, 12:14

Perhaps a solution to the tyre issue would be a some sort of can of tyre filling mousse that would handle ~100 km of liaison, but would be unusable on a special stage? That way no one would have to retire because they don't have enough wheels on liaison. I don't know if this kind of products exist though.

I still fail to see why this needs any sort of "solution". I mean it has worked for years and decades. Why do we need to suddenly start inventing weird and crazy stuff just because Tänak once retired?

This is all bullshit. Retirement because of punctures is retirement just like from any other reason - broken suspension, damaged radiator, whatever. The obsession about keeping the cars in the game at any cost is ridiculous, like if super rally itself was not alien enough to the concept of rallying.

Rallyper

25th January 2021, 12:20

I still fail to see why this needs any sort of "solution". I mean it has worked for years and decades. Why do we need to suddenly start inventing weird and crazy stuff just because Tänak once retired?

Worked for years. Yes we have a lot of things in our everyday life working since decades.

This a sport. Every sport wants to attract their fans. Having fever and fever drivers on top level I think we should care about them as much as possible. What happened was obviously something that could have been fixed in order to give fans what they want.

(Don´t come with one/two spares theory again...) ;)

cali

25th January 2021, 12:21

AnttiL

25th January 2021, 12:35

I still fail to see why this needs any sort of "solution". I mean it has worked for years and decades. Why do we need to suddenly start inventing weird and crazy stuff just because Tänak once retired?

This is all bullshit. Retirement because of punctures is retirement just like from any other reason - broken suspension, damaged radiator, whatever. The obsession about keeping the cars in the game at any cost is ridiculous, like if super rally itself was not alien enough to the concept of rallying.

Yes, I'm not the one saying it needs a solution, but just trying to suggest something more realistic than having tyre vans at the last TC before service.

AnttiL

25th January 2021, 12:36

This a sport. Every sport wants to attract their fans. Having fever and fever drivers on top level I think we should care about them as much as possible. What happened was obviously something that could have been fixed in order to give fans what they want.

Oh yeah, we totally missed the experience of watching Tänak saving his tyres throughout Sunday morning!

TypeR

25th January 2021, 13:01

Weren't there service vans at the end of stages back in the days? Or tyre changes in the middle of stages?

Was it also ruining the true rallying back then?

denkimi

25th January 2021, 13:09

I still fail to see why this needs any sort of "solution". I mean it has worked for years and decades. Why do we need to suddenly start inventing weird and crazy stuff just because Tänak once retired?

But this hasn't worked for decades.

We used to have flying service, then came tyre mousse, and then rally2. Untill 2006 they were allowed to drive on 3 wheels as long as they weren't stopped by the police.

You talk of superrally being alien to the sport, but you seem to forget that before that they just had service after every stage. A broken suspension or damaged radiator would not have caused a retirement in the old days.

We should bring back mobile service. Allow every team a small van and 2 mechanics.

Rallyper

25th January 2021, 13:20

Okay, punctures come randomly. So how organizer should choose where to put tire/wheel flea market?

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Read again. Only after last stage before service, or even maybe only after last stage per day.

Rallyper

25th January 2021, 13:21

Oh yeah, we totally missed the experience of watching Tänak saving his tyres throughout Sunday morning!

Skip the Tanak talk. It´s not about him. Spare us a lot of fuzztalk.

I just want to bring up an issue not good for the sport.

mknight

25th January 2021, 13:29

This whole topic is insane (appart from the WRC2/3 rules which already fit in their own topic).

Poor Tanak retires and suddenly we should talk for ages about "stupid" rules. Driving on 3 turning wheels in any way shape or form is not good for the sport in terms of any public image as well as competition fairness (drivers stopped in UK and not in Mexico etc.), that's why there are rules about that. Nothing stupid about it.

AnttiL

25th January 2021, 13:45

You talk of superrally being alien to the sport, but you seem to forget that before that they just had service after every stage. A broken suspension or damaged radiator would not have caused a retirement in the old days.

From 1995 to 2006 there was no fly-in service nor superrally. Well, from 1995 to 2001 there was still multiple service parks, but 2001-2006 was mostly single service park with no superrally.

AnttiL

25th January 2021, 13:51

We should bring back mobile service. Allow every team a small van and 2 mechanics.

Think about this: how can the service van get to the end of the stage faster than the rally car? Yes, they can't. That's why in the past they had two service groups (or god knows if Lancia had more) who skipped every second stage in order to make it work. So you can already double the vans. Then what if all the team has 1-2-3 in the rally and all the three cars come to the service at the same time? Yes, they need to have 2 mechanics for every driver. So it's suddenly two vans and 12 mechanics. Not so simple anymore.

I think it's only positive that we don't have flying service anymore. In that way the sport has now more endurance aspect than before. You could even service during the stage in the crazy old days.

I could speak for having a remote service area which could be set somewhere during the leg, on a designated area, with a limited amount of mechanics and parts, but I know that teams are already complaining of remote tyre zones (where the drivers change the tyres by themselves and the team only has to bring the tyres to the zone).

AnttiL

25th January 2021, 13:52

Skip the Tanak talk. It´s not about him. Spare us a lot of fuzztalk.

I just want to bring up an issue not good for the sport.

Well, you said that fans are missing something if there's less cars on Sunday, but frequently we hear complaints from restarted drivers saving their tyres throughout Sundays.

Mirek

25th January 2021, 13:55

Skip the Tanak talk. It´s not about him. Spare us a lot of fuzztalk.

Yet for 15 years nobody said a word. Nobody complained until Tänak retired. So how isn't it about Tänak? What have you done for those 15 years?

cali

25th January 2021, 13:57

Read again. Only after last stage before service, or even maybe only after last stage per day.So if you have punctures between stages then still you have to retire? Not very useful isn't it?

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petttu

25th January 2021, 18:43

And if there is "free" tires, should there also be some other parts available. I had Latvala in mind, since he had retired 2 times (-18, -19) in rally Mexico with broken alternator. And at least 2019 he had a second spare battery, but those went flat just before the final super special. That case he had one super special stage (twice) to go, but in rally Sardinia 2018 he had to retire on the last liaison of the day for the same reason, alternator failed and the battery went flat. Should there be a spare charger or a battery for Latvala then?
And what parts should be provided, and why just for the last liaison, shouldn't those liaisons be equal to each other?

Rallyper

25th January 2021, 18:46

@Pertuu Please don´t exaggerate if you didn´t follow. Read again.

This discussion didn´t end well... a lot of concious misunderstanding...and whataboutism.

Oh. I forgot. Should kept my mouth shut long time ago. ;)

patwalsh13

25th January 2021, 23:30

Who said after every stage? Not me.

Punctures comes randomly. We all know that. Having one spare would make it easier to retire during a leg. Two spares - still you can be out within the leg.

Having done all day to finish of last stage with only having liasion is what I´m talking about. With such rule we would have seen Ott on Sunday as well. Not for the podium but a chance to get PS points. And for the joy for spectators. Not more not less.

Read again my dear fellows.

Make all cars have to carry 2 spares.

Also allow wheels/tyres to be swapped between competitors (any crews, not just teammates). 4 tyres on car scanned at/just after stage stopline and if using a tyre not allocated to you when leaving service then you get a time penalty (30 seconds). All tyres scanned on entrance to service area with additional penalties for not having your tyre allocation, i.e. if you borrow a tyre you will need to return it as both crews will be penalised.

seb_sh

26th January 2021, 08:35

Interesting that this debate started after a set of very specific circumstances (no super rally at monte and puncture for a driver that took only 1 spare vs most who took 2). To me any sort of solution to this very specific circumstance is ridiculous.
- flying service? impractical and expensive
- tyre sharing? probably each team will have a "tyre carrier" car and if you are poor you are disadvantaged
- skip liaisons -> you are looking for rallycross or hillclimb
- and my favourite: a generic tyre replacement service specifically after the last stage of the day in case some drivers specifically has a puncture more than spares and specifically isn't allowed to drive the liaison and specifically it's monte penultimate day and you aren't allowed to super rally

the rules are fine, not allowing to drive on 3 wheels at all rallies is fine, sometimes somone will get burnt, it happens way to rarely to justify any kind of expense to "solve" a problem that in my opinion doesn't exist

on the WRC2/3/Teams topic: WRC2 should be all Rally2 cars. Then you can make some subcategory like junior wrc or privateer or whatever within that, but all rally2 score in the main category.

wia5958

26th January 2021, 12:45

memory serves me right the biggest downfall of flying service was the safety aspect example on a national rally u had 100crews starting that meant 100 vehicles chasing the rally trying to get to stage ends before their car arrived having been part of it for many years. It was also dangerous for the mechanics several instances on narrow back roads mechanics were clipped by other passing competitors. As for the tanak exclusion i dont see a problem with it. it was about safety of other road users that is y he has been penalised if u were driving home from work and a guy passed u driving on a bare rim what would u think i see that as a worse reflection on our sport than him not being able to continue He got a puncture used his single spare. Game over. Complain its not good for the sport to lose a top driver over something so simple all u want fact is other top drivers have lost out for less. Loeb for example running out of fuel. Wasnt even his fault. Meeke kicking his windscreen out cause it was in a time control. Latvalas alternator issues. Its part and parcel of the sport. If u cant accept it go follow a different sport

Mirek

26th January 2021, 14:43

Flying service is no option in 2021. It's not 80' anymore, there is muuuuch more traffic on the roads and the rallysport can't do anymore whatever it wants on public roads without shooting itself in the foot.

Fast Eddie WRC

26th January 2021, 16:01

AnttiL

26th January 2021, 16:38

Modern rally drivers are already lucky in having the Rally 2 option to continue.

Year's ago if you broke down or crashed you were out of the rally, period.

Until 1995 you had flying service between every stage, or even during the stage. Helicopter service was banned in 1986, and mid-stage tyre changes were banned in 1988. In 1995 that service parks came, but there were many of them, typically between 30-50 km of stages. From 2001 or so it's been mostly single service park location. Super rally was introduced in 2005. There were still usually two visits to the service park during a day. Around 2010 this started changing towards only one midday service during the rally day (in addition to morning and evening).

The first superrally was arranged in 1999 along the first power stages (aka TV stage). Crews who had retired were allowed to take part in the TV stage and score additional points.

Sulland

26th January 2021, 16:48

Modern rally drivers are already lucky in having the Rally 2 option to continue.
Year's ago if you broke down or crashed you were out of the rally, period.
Re Tanak on Monte - he chose to have one spare and so took the risk of two punctures.

And I am quite happy to cut the option of cars returning the day after, when repaired.
If you have to stop on a stage, whatever the reason might be, you are out of the rally.

AndyRAC

26th January 2021, 17:27

And I am quite happy to cut the option of cars returning the day after, when repaired.
If you have to stop on a stage, whatever the reason might be, you are out of the rally.

The purist in me agrees. The realist knows we have it, and it's staying as it ensures more cars on the stages. However, as I've often complained, if you SupeRally/ Rally2, you CAN'T finish ahead of someone who has done the full event.

Fast Eddie WRC

26th January 2021, 17:40

If you return under Rally 2 on the last day (to try for PS points), your times on the preceding stages should have to be within a certain percentage of a set figure to stop you tyre saving.

The PS should be made equal for everyone especially now that there are Manu points on it too.

Rallyper

26th January 2021, 18:08

Mirek

26th January 2021, 20:29

So why not put up a new set of tires for all PS drivers? So we get rid of the theatre on Sundays...

They cut the overall number of available tyres year by year because of cost reductions. Tell them you want extra tyres just for PS and you'll see the answer ;)

Fast Eddie WRC

27th January 2021, 09:49

How about all cars have to carry an emergency super-lightweight space-saver spare wheel for road use only ?

Then no more problems getting back to service and it will be the same for everyone.

AnttiL

27th January 2021, 10:31

If you return under Rally 2 on the last day (to try for PS points), your times on the preceding stages should have to be within a certain percentage of a set figure to stop you tyre saving.

But then Greensmith couldn't enter the power stage :D

EDIT: Joking aside, this kind of rule would obviously be very hard to put into practice.

Rallyper

27th January 2021, 12:58

They cut the overall number of available tyres year by year because of cost reductions. Tell them you want extra tyres just for PS and you'll see the answer ;)

I knew your answer beforehand... :) :)

denkimi

27th January 2021, 14:46

They cut the overall number of available tyres year by year because of cost reductions. Tell them you want extra tyres just for PS and you'll see the answer ;)
As if those 4 tyres mean anything when it comes to cost saving.

Mirek

27th January 2021, 15:07

As if those 4 tyres mean anything when it comes to cost saving.

Don't tell that to me.

I only stated how it is.

scn

27th January 2021, 15:22

Regarding flying service, in 1990 I accidentally passed from the yard Toyota had its service cars one day before Acropolis. I counted 27 small and big trucks.
And in 1985 I have seen with my own eyes Blomqvist's Audi (finished 2nd that year) and Wittman's Golf (1st in GrA) about 500 m. out of the official liaison section, in the city of Athens, spending more than one hour in the building of the official VW-Audi dealer in Greece, while they traveled in the night to the park-ferme before the last day. Both of the cars arrived there in racing speeds, got into the building and all doors closed as soon as they got in. They were also driven in racing speeds when they left for the Time Control, which was about 50 kms away.
Flying service must not return in any form, for any reason. Although I loved it when we had it in Greek championship, it is extremely expensive and can lead to situations of dishonesty.

Fast Eddie WRC

27th January 2021, 18:01

EDIT: Joking aside, this kind of rule would obviously be very hard to put into practice.

It's hardly rocket science.

I think something should be done, esp with the PS now scoring Manu points.

There could be all kinds of tactics, not just tyre-saving, at the end of the season when the title is decided. Some cars could be cruising all rally to stay in good condition in case they're 'needed' to go all-out for the PS Manu points.

AnttiL

27th January 2021, 18:15

It's hardly rocket science.

I think something should be done, esp with the PS now scoring Manu points.

There could be all kinds of tactics, not just tyre-saving, at the end of the season when the title is decided. Some cars could be cruising all rally to stay in good condition in case they're 'needed' to go all-out for the PS Manu points.

I don’t see this happening. You can only nominate three cars to score points. Being positioned high gives more points than power stage, so it makes no sense to cruise during the beginning of the event just for those few power stage points.

Having ”maximum times” would disqualify drivers who get a puncture or a spin or some other issue...and you guys would complain again!

Meanwhile, I don’t like the new power stage point additions.

Fast Eddie WRC

28th January 2021, 11:14

pantealex

28th January 2021, 15:47

If all 3 nominated cars finish and the 2 highest placed get the overall Manu points, cant their 3rd highest car be used to go flat-out to try to bag maximum Manu points on the PS ?

This might not happen early in the season but near the end, if the standings are tight, it could.

Possibly another recipe for tactics and confusion.

I see that as right way to do it.

Power Stage flat out !

Biggest problem is if that 3rd car gets DNF it could give more personal points to opponents.
If 3rd car is doing Rally2(superrally) then it´s different story...

Kradovech

29th January 2021, 17:28

Since we have this thread I would like to bring up something I found unnecessarily unfair ever since I started following all stages of a rally - Starting order on Friday. Most of the time championship leader is put into a tough position but is able suffer through the day and start fighting back over the rest of the weekend. Under certain circumstances however the starting position can eliminate him completely from the competition with no chance of fighting back. (See Sweden 2018 discussion in the arctic rally thread)
What could be changed? How about making the thursday evening's mickey mouse stage decide the order? First finisher could choose the starting position first, second finisher can choose after that etc. This way starting order positive or negative effects would be more consistent throughout the year (gravel vs tarmac rallys) It would also bring more excitement to thursdays stage. Assuming we can get back to the pre COVID rally setups in the future.

You might argue that thursdays stage is most of the time not charachteristic of the rest of the rally and therefor not suitable but in my opinion it would still be better than current system.

What are your thoughts on the starting order and would you change it in any way?

Mirek

29th January 2021, 17:41

That is a neverending discussion. I don't know how long you follow rallying but basically everything was already tried (including qualification stage which is still in use in ERC).

By the way it's not true that the friday starting order is always disadvantage for the first runners. Sometimes it is even big advantage, typically in Germany, often on other asphalts, sometimes in Monte carlo, sometimes even on gravel - for example in night dusty stages or in strong rain, even on snow it can be sometimes an advantage. For sure on most of the gravel events it's big disadvantage but in the end the consensus is that it doesn't limit the best drivers that much - Ogier and especially Loeb opened the road countless times and it didn't stop them from crushing their opponents. Also from the audience perspective it adds some spice to the show.

By the way to start first will be likely a decisive advantage in Ypres, if that event takes place.

AnttiL

31st July 2021, 11:33

https://dirtfish.com/rally/is-the-powerstage-still-fair/

AnttiL

31st July 2021, 12:13

https://dirtfish.com/rally/is-the-powerstage-still-fair/

I don't find this a problem myself, but apparently many people do.

Like Matton says, adding fresh tyres is an easy solution, but against cost/environmental idealism. At the same time, it wouldn't mean super rally restarters would push for stage wins in the morning stages, they would still just have to get through without breaking the car.

One solution would be to remove all Sunday stages except power stage (and it's first run). Less rallying in total, but also less cruising, if that's really a problem.

tommeke_B

31st July 2021, 12:24

What if they return the qualifying stage to determine the starting order of day 1, and mark the tyres used there and make those the ones to be used for the powerstage. One solution for two problems, except if the weather conditions on PS are very different from QS, then new tyres only for PS could be an (expensive) option.

scn

31st July 2021, 13:48

Power stage poses certain unfair situations and tyres is not the only one. If someone is first or second with big gap from the next one, it is not wise to risk in the last stage so he has a disadvantage. We have seen this many times because it is simply common sense. This is actually a punishment to the most successful driver of the rally. What is fair about punishing the most successful or making him take risks that are stupid to take?
Also, tyre issue cannot be solved without fresh tyres for everyone, which means an annual 15000 cost for each car. I don't know if this is a problem for teams with multi-million budgets, but I don't see any other solution.
Reducing the whole duration of actual rallying just for the Sunday TV is something that I would not like to see. Rallies are already too small, to the point that they have lost every element of adventure for the spectators. Spectating used to be an adventure and this was an element that spectators loved about rallying. Now it is like going to a hillclimb or even a football match.

denkimi

31st July 2021, 14:13

We could make it like the golden stage in cyprus. End the rally, stop the timing, award the points, give everyone new tyres and service, and let them drive as fast as they can without other worries.

AnttiL

31st July 2021, 14:23

We could make it like the golden stage in cyprus. End the rally, stop the timing, award the points, give everyone new tyres and service, and let them drive as fast as they can without other worries.

To me this seems odd, like having an external rallycross contest on the side of the actual rally

Think from the perspective of someone who is restarting on Sunday just to score on this Golden Stage, why would they push at all on the Sunday stages? It doesn't solve the actual issue.

AndyRAC

31st July 2021, 15:17

Well they're not going to get rid of it; it's become a 'selling point' of the sport/ event. To be honest, I've never had a problem with drivers cruising on the final day, that to is a skill; but maybe that's because I watch plenty of GT racing and is quite common.

I don't like the fact people on SupeRally/ Rally 2 have an advantage for the Power Stage; that doesn't make sense; that needs changing.

However, not that I think could work in the WRC, but I like what they do in the Enduro MTB series; on two rounds, they've run a Friday night 'super stage' which counts towards the event, but award extra points - before the 4 stages the following day, including a re-run of the super stage.

Fast Eddie WRC

31st July 2021, 18:09

I don't find this a problem myself, but apparently many people do.

Toyota driver Elfyn Evans says enough’s enough. The time has come for change.

“If you’ve had a tough weekend and you’re running, say, sixth or something like that, then you have somebody who has retired on Thursday, saved their tires and comes back to win the powerstage and take the five points. You’ve driven the whole route for eight points and they’ve done a stage and taken five or something like that. It feels disproportionate.”

You think this is fair Antti ?

AnttiL

31st July 2021, 20:49

Toyota driver Elfyn Evans says enough’s enough. The time has come for change.

“If you’ve had a tough weekend and you’re running, say, sixth or something like that, then you have somebody who has retired on Thursday, saved their tires and comes back to win the powerstage and take the five points. You’ve driven the whole route for eight points and they’ve done a stage and taken five or something like that. It feels disproportionate.”

You think this is fair Antti ?

Yes. First of all, it's not so easy to get 5 power stage points. Even with your preserved tyres, you had to drive the stage without mistakes. And remember that super rally restarters are first WRC cars on the road.

Meanwhile, if you're sixth, why not take a gamble at saving your tyres throughout Sunday? You might drop a place, but you could get five more points from the power stage?

At the same time, this is a whole different topic. Elfyn is questioning whether power stage should have this much value or not.

AnttiL

31st July 2021, 20:51

However, not that I think could work in the WRC, but I like what they do in the Enduro MTB series; on two rounds, they've run a Friday night 'super stage' which counts towards the event, but award extra points - before the 4 stages the following day, including a re-run of the super stage.

So essentially it's just a power stage, but they have it already at the end of first day? Does the super stage award extra points on Saturday as well?

denkimi

31st July 2021, 21:08

To me this seems odd, like having an external rallycross contest on the side of the actual rally

Think from the perspective of someone who is restarting on Sunday just to score on this Golden Stage, why would they push at all on the Sunday stages? It doesn't solve the actual issue.
The whole idea of a powerstage is strange. It doesn't belong to the concept of rally. The fastest drivers should get the points in my eyes, and nothing more.

But i understand it was implemented so drivers would push on at least one stage on sunday, which they could then show on tv.

So a golden stage would be the best of both worlds. Drivers have a reason to push on a stage, but the fight is more equal for everybody. And they can driver faster all of sunday, since they don't need to save their tyres.

Nothing can make drivers push on all stages except giving points for every stage.

focus206

31st July 2021, 21:08

I remember when they used to say that Power stage was also a way for super-rally drivers to have something to fight for and not end the weekend with 0 points. It's normal they'll have an advantage compared to the drivers who are in point scoring positions.
But I think 3-2-1 point system is more proportionate than 5-4-3-2-1.

scn

1st August 2021, 03:39

AnttiL

1st August 2021, 05:37

So a golden stage would be the best of both worlds. Drivers have a reason to push on a stage, but the fight is more equal for everybody. And they can driver faster all of sunday, since they don't need to save their tyres.

I repeat: if drivers are in "no-mands-land" with minutes back and front or super rally, they have no reason to push anyway. Of course they won't drive road mode, but not pushing for stage wins either. This is a part of rallying.

The golden stage would split the excitement of rally win and power stage win into two different stages. And both would have to be televised.

For me one part of power stage excitement is that the extra point risk is included in the whole rally result. It's really extraordinary when someone wins the rally and the power stage, they are willing to risk the rally win for the extra points.

denkimi

1st August 2021, 11:49

I repeat: if drivers are in "no-mands-land" with minutes back and front or super rally, they have no reason to push anyway. Of course they won't drive road mode, but not pushing for stage wins either. This is a part of rallying.

The golden stage would split the excitement of rally win and power stage win into two different stages. And both would have to be televised.

For me one part of power stage excitement is that the extra point risk is included in the whole rally result. It's really extraordinary when someone wins the rally and the power stage, they are willing to risk the rally win for the extra points.
as i said, nothing can make drivers push on all stages except giving points for every stage. that's nothing new.

but you're missing the point here. the problem is that drivers cruise through at the speed of their grandmother to save their tyres for the powerstage, where they would otherwise just drive fast but safe as they did before. the fact that they can get more points by driving very slow has actually ruined a big part of sunday.

the powerstage splits the excitement anyway.

AnttiL

1st August 2021, 13:40

Yeah, I know there is no easy solution.

I tried to find earlier examples of this tyre saving thing. Ogier has seemed to attempt it in Portugal 2018 (having crashed on Friday). He finished 10th, 16th and 9th on the "normal" Sunday stages, won the Fafe first run but finished only 8th on the power stage. His tyre saving tactics wasn't enough because of the compromised starting position?

lmmjvss

2nd August 2021, 21:09

Keep 5-4-3-2-1 for the power stage but pay higher points in the rally (35-28-25-22-20-18-16-14-12-10?)

tommeke_B

3rd August 2021, 18:04

Why should tenth be awarded with nearly 1/3 of the points of the winner?

focus206

3rd August 2021, 18:32

I don't see why we would need this "let's assign one billion points to everybody for whatever accomplishment they get in a rally". So we end up like NASCAR and their classifications with 5278 points per driver.
Already assigning points to the top 10 is generous, considering usually we have less than 10 WRC cars. To me, being faster than Rally2 cars is not good enough to score points, but I understand we cannot change the point scoring system every time, according to the number of WRC cars.

WRCStan

26th November 2021, 20:36

Cruising also happens because there just aren't enough kilometres on a Sunday AM. Usually this day is wasted and drivers go to bed on Saturday knowing where they will finish. More KM could encourage more racing but it could cement positions with growing gaps. It's also costly and with the trend being shorter rallies I would shorten Friday and lengthen Sunday thus moving the racing KMs and attack strategy.

Typical itinerary could be:
Friday AM: Shakedown/Quali
Friday PM, the initial charge: (20%) Perhaps a Power Stage as SS1 as a statement of intent, or one for the early evening TV in summer
Saturday, the battles appear: (40%) 2 loops
Sunday, settle or gamble: (40%) 2 loops

Either shift the existing PS to a later time or make the final TC and Media Zone a Sunday afternoon/evening 'live TV show' if it's required with the interviews and podium then and using the best highlights as action. I absolutely detest this notion that the championship revolves around a TV hour at Sunday lunchtime. Real fans can watch any stage live if they wish. Casual viewers wouldn't know if it was actually live or a repeat of 3 days ago. The idea that people are all sat at home on a Sunday watching the one TV in the house as a happy family and there's no internet, and once we've seen them on the podium IMMEDIATELY and stood to the anthem - we don't need to hear from, talk about, think about, read the news about WRC until the next event's power stage. Get ******* real. We've all got 3 screens, working all sorts of shifts and we're spread across timezones.

I'll also say points per stage will just create silly 50 stage itineraries to suit the local driver. Points per leg is much better.

There's nothing wrong with restarting but the penalty should be minutes/KM lost not 10m per stage. Nominal times are worked on /km basis so shouldn't be an issue.

AnttiL

26th November 2021, 23:37

I have understood the Power stage live broadcast is set to Sunday noon not to overlap with other popular sports (F1 later in the afternoon, football on Saturday evening). I could be wrong though.

It’s also good to remember the people who travel to the events, they want to get home before Monday. Some even would prefer rallies ending on Saturday (like a few rallies did in early 2010’s).

I wrote about this (just before COVID changed many rallies to be three days long) with interviews and collected quotes from drivers.

https://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/06/15/wrc-event-in-three-days/

WRCStan

27th November 2021, 12:03

I remember the conversation happening when Estonia was brought in and that was a good re-read thank you.

I very nearly wrote Thursday to Saturday would work for me. I've been in the Service Park on Sundays and it gets dismantled and packed up around you, which emphasises the point that Sundays don't exist. A Saturday finish could make a more lively service park - not that Finland or Salou struggle. Do all the podium, pr and autograph stuff then, unless the drivers just don't want to appear after the last stage. But you can get the only flight on a Sunday at 5am!