WRC Vision 2012

[Sulland]

The FIA working group lead by Morrie Chandler called Vision 2012, will meet on Tuesday 15 May 2007 to discuss how the WRC will look like in the future. By the end of this meeting we can expect a statement.

In Autosport 10 May they summed up what has leaked so far.

1. No revolution, WRC cars will still be 4wd and turbocharged. So the S2000 concept will not be top notch as speculated in.

2. All WRC cars will have to be based on a homologated Gr N or S2000 car. This to hopefully increase the number of car types in Gr N, and those two will be the recruitment classes, as is.

3. They are also concidering that kits to upgrade a Gr N or S2000 to a WRC, and back again. This to give drivers and teams more flexibility. This is still being staffed to come up with how this is to happen. But are they able to swing it it sounds like a very good idea.

4. Engine volume; They are looking at reducing todays 2000 ccm to 1800 or even 1600 ccm to reduce torque and the need to have a drag-race strong drive line. They are looking at continuing with restrictors, and maybe pop-off valves to easier control and govern the max output rule (300 bhp)

5. Sound; They are looking to get more racecar like sound in the forrest. This both from a safety and spectator point of view. The group thinks that the lower ccm volume will mean that gear changes have to happen higher in the register, and that this will help.

6. They are concidering to implement standard transmission ala S2000 to keep cost down. Another option is to specify materials, ratios, dimentions and number of gears allowed. But they see transmission as an area to save cost. And a more COTS (commercial of the shelf) would make sense.

7. Business plans; They see a need to improve the business plans. This would apply to Manufacturers, teams, the TV/ promotion part and also the rally arrangers. The aim is to get more long term planning.

8. Fuel; Diesel is out and Bio Fuel is in. Reason: Diesel is typical European thing. To get the Americans on board Rally, E85 or even E100 is a better direction to move in.

9. Service; They are also rethinking the way service is done. Maybe go back to how it used to be, with service locations after each leg, or even service after each SS in remote locations.

10. Timeline: The group is called Vision 2012, and are working towards how WRC should look like from that year on, but some or all elements can be implemented a lot sooner, but in a controlled fashion and with long term stability in mind.
__________________

That was the plan in short - in my opinion most of them will move WRC in the right direction.

What do you think ?

[milly]

S2000 will convert to 1.8 turbo; WRC class will be S2000 cars with an additional performance kit on top. That means any S2000 car can upgrade to WRC spec.

Point 2: For a car to be WRC it has to be homologated via S2000 or GpN route. So WRC will be S2000 based.

[Jarek Z]

Thank you for the information guys, but WRC Vision 2012? Will WRC still be alive in that year?

[GigiGalliNo1]

I hope it will be but i don't want no WRC cars with 1.6 or 1.8 ltrs! Love the sounds don't restrict the volume..

a wrc car has to be homoligated from a S2000 or grp. N car which means what sorry?

[shurik]

Imo this 2012 plan is bull****, pardon my french. This proposal is more like immitation of thinking than real deal :(

[Sulland]

Imo this 2012 plan is bull****, pardon my french. This proposal is more like immitation of thinking than real deal :(

So what is the real deal according to Shurik ?
It is always easy to critisice, but harder to come up with something better....

Your proposals for the future pls ?

[raybak]

If WRC's survive to 2012, it's still quite a few years away with S2000 on the rise in many countries. I wreckon that S2000 will win out just on the amount of manufacturers involved.

Ray

[pino]

I say change almost as much as you want, but make sure we have more manufactures competing, because I am sick and tired of seeing only 3 Teams involved in the WRC :blackeye: :mad:

[shurik]

So what is the real deal according to Shurik ?
It is always easy to critisice, but harder to come up with something better....

Your proposals for the future pls ?

In brief:
1) 2l turbocharged engine or 3.5 na engine
2) No HP restriction
3) No ABS, TC or LC, i.e. no electronic aid
4) 20 cars homologation rule, no base on N or S2000 class
5) Cars or car parts can be homologated by non-manufacturers
6) car may be based on non four wheel drive car
7) engine block may be not original but should be built by the same maufacturer
8) Free engine and transmission placement
9) Free suspension geometry
10) Free wheelbase
11) obligatory crashtest for homologation

[Glee]

4. [...0] They are looking at continuing with restrictors, and maybe pop-off valves to easier control and govern the max output rule (300 bhp)

What is a pop-off valve?

[Josti]

This technical stuff is all nice, but what about WRC's real problems?

[Sulland]

Pop-off valve is a valve that restricts the turbo boost to a pre-set max turbo pressure.

Shuricks rules look like a combo btw old Gr S and formula 1 rules !

Normally aspirated is a clear possibility in my book as well, but a 2.5 ltr engine is enough I think.

And Josti: what are the real problems ?

[Josti]

Read the forum Sulland.

[SubaruNorway]

The wastegate is what restricts the pressure, the pop-off is the valve that releases pressure when lifting the throttle so that the pressure doesen't bounce back and slow the turbo down. Lies pretty much in the names doesen't it

[Sulland]

The wastegate is what restricts the pressure, the pop-off is the valve that releases pressure when lifting the throttle so that the pressure doesen't bounce back and slow the turbo down. Lies pretty much in the names doesen't it

Sorry you are of course correct !

Josti: Sice its a pretty big forum, could you pls give a couple of hints to what you feel is the real problem ? Maybe a link or two ?

[Josti]

This thread sums up the problems pretty good:

http://rallybase.motorsportforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117386

[Sulland]

In the past we had driver's battles. Now, it's all about technology and money. That's wrong

I fully aggree with the statement above. And I hope that FIA will see this both in F1 and WRC before it is too late !

In my opinion all changed when the car manufacurers entered the scene, and Richard started his commercialisation program, to become the Bernie of WRC.

To a certain extent it had to come, but it went overboard !

All motorsport need to be made so cheap that everyone can buy one or more cars and set up a team ala in the USA.
That means that technology used needs to be so simple and mechanical that it is possible to understand and maintain over time.

Today very few if any privateer teams can expect to fight for overall victory in WRC - and that is wrong.

So I am all in for getting back a simple and "Analogue" car as the top class in WRC - so the drivers get back being the most impotant part, and not the car (manufacturer) !!!

[janvanvurpa]

The wastegate is what restricts the pressure, the pop-off is the valve that releases pressure when lifting the throttle so that the pressure doesen't bounce back and slow the turbo down. Lies pretty much in the names doesen't it

Oi Oi Oi Gutte little correction.

Wastegate which is controlled by the wastegate actuator, allows a portion of the exhuat gasses to bypass the turbine wheel, when needed, to control turbine speed.

"Pop-off valve" in the context of a maximum boost limiting device is a a valve located in the "log" or plenum which when whatever pre-set pressure is reached will allow a valve to raise off off seat and dump the contents of the plenum and kill any further boost for a given time.

Pop off valves have been used forever in US "Indy" type nonsense for years, the idea is if you exceed max boost you pay a big penalty.
Here's a artical that talks about the collection of crooks, bandits, and fools that have to deal with this nonsense:
http://www.autoracing1.com/MarkC/2005/0222BlameOwnersToo.asp
There are photos of "pop off valves" there.

The thing that you described to prevent the slowing or stalling of the turbo during the period when the throttle is closed is that beloved toy of children everywhere the "Blow off valve" or BOV, the term which is the single most frequently used word on hundreds of performance forums worldwide.
Woooooosssssh!


Hoppas det förklarar skillnaden för dig.
mvh

[janvanvurpa]

[B]
All motorsport need to be made so cheap that everyone can buy one or more cars and set up a team ala in the USA.
That means that technology used needs to be so simple and mechanical that it is possible to understand and maintain over time.


Sulland, not to sidetrack the thread here too much, but when you say like USA after 'motorsport need to be made so cheap that everyone can buy one or more cars and set up a team' you should be aware that in US over the last 8-9 years has steadily become so expensive that only independently wealthy people can afford to afford do do more than 2 or 3 events.
Costs have soared, event stage distances have reached absurdly short levels (imagine the costs to drive 5500km one way, pay an entry fee of $1100, and have 105km SS).
Only millionaires or their offspring can afford to do that.

The trend is not reversing.

Only bright spot is the debut of an independent initiative called 'Max Attack Series' by a group of people who are most impressed with what they have been pointed to on the Swedish GpH and Finnish GruppF series.
Max Attack series is run concurrently with 3 rounds for 2wheel drive vehicles only, no homologation requirements, and with actual good prize funds of $2000 for 1st and even $800 for 5th.

Other than 'Max Attack' the US series is a very bad joke with guys with zero car competition experience but HUGE budgets buying insanely expensive cars cars and instantly making top 5 results proving only how thin the competition is---or alternately how virtually any man off the street could do the exact same thing----with the same budget.

[J4MIE]

I hope it will be but i don't want no WRC cars with 1.6 or 1.8 ltrs! Love the sounds don't restrict the volume..

Oh please.... :rolleyes:

[jonas_mcrae]

I have a question, would a S2000 or a Gr. P improved to be WRC, would actually be as fast as the real or actual WRC cars? for example in the south american rally championship, i heard of a gr. N Lancer being converted to be WRC, but not being even close to the pace to an older, but however proper WRC Impreza. I know this new rules say that all WRC have to be based on s2000 but what would happen to old WRC? just be banned?

[Sulland]

Sulland, not to sidetrack the thread here too much, but when you say like USA after 'motorsport need to be made so cheap that everyone can buy one or more cars and set up a team' you should be aware that in US over the last 8-9 years has steadily become so expensive that only independently wealthy people can afford to afford do do more than 2 or 3 events.

The trend is not reversing.



When used the US as an example I was more refering to circuit racing, where everyone can set up a team in NASCAR, Champ Car or IRL not having to engineer and build a complete car, but can buy it and the package is pretty "low tech". Keep it that way !!

American rallying I know little of I am afraid, exept the coming star Travis Pastrana is in a Subaru WRX.

WRC is moving in the direction of F1, and it is today only the Factory teams that have the cars to win, and knowledge to keep them running at top notch level over time without problems. And many times even they do not understand these animals, and Subary is probably the best example !!

This way of thinking is behind my standpoint of trying to simplify the WRC so much, that a good mechaninc can understand them and keep them running over time !!

For us spectators, the show would be the same, or even improve with more teams and drivers with a shot at the victory !

[jparker]

Sulland, not to sidetrack the thread here too much, but when you say like USA after 'motorsport need to be made so cheap that everyone can buy one or more cars and set up a team' you should be aware that in US over the last 8-9 years has steadily become so expensive that only independently wealthy people can afford to afford do do more than 2 or 3 events.

Yes janvanvurpa, you are correct and I don't think rallying will ever be accessible to everyone, but still rally cars in North America are good example to support this thread. They are still highly modified and powerful, but just more "down to earth" machines. Yes, they are getting more expensive, but nowhere near the cost of WRCar.

[JAM]

My opinion

1. Agree that WRC cars must be the top. S2000 are good to regional championships and to a second level on WRC.

2. Agree that WRC cars must push sometihing on the manufacturers to bring more interesting cars. The japanese manufacturers are the only who have N4 4WD cars, is amazing as the european don't have it. It seems that there is no market for these cars...

3. THis possibility of upgarde and downgarde cars is something that i don't se the useful od this measure.

4. I don't know why in FIA people still think on the 300hp limitation. This is a good liomitation to S2000 ir Group N but not for WRC cars. WRC cars are near the 400hp and don't see any problem on it. Why to limit? The redution to 1800cc is aceptable, but to 1600 is not aceptable.

5. The sound is somethuing that WRC cars lost many yeras ago. They don'ty seem as a real race cars. Better and bigger sound would be welcome. Why to not have the ALS making that noise that the Group A Escort Cosworth had in the past?

6. Standard transmissions are a good measure to reduce costs. I defende that the cost reduction is an urgent measure to save WRC.

7. They already had a bussiness plan 4 or 5 years ago and we see what happened and is happening. We need a business plan but it must be folowed by good and interesting rallyes and good cars to have a good product to show to the audiences.

8. Diesel out of WRC... ok, acepted. The biofuel is something in wich FIA must had workek in. They should gave the example but are a bit late on it.

9. The only service park created compact rallyes that are very expensive to organizers. As we saw in Argentina with the Buenos Aires SS, is not a big problem to move the structure from one place to another. If manufacturers want they do it, if they don'ty want they put a lot of problems on in.

10. The changes must be studied and must being implemented during the time. Not all at aonce. The stability is very important. Rules to last years are good to the sport.

[Doon]

WRC is moving in the direction of F1, and it is today only the Factory teams that have the cars to win, and knowledge to keep them running at top notch level over time without problems.!

Hasn't this been the case for many years? I mean when did the last privateer win a WRC rally, late 80's? Its just more apparent now as we have less works teams, and only two that can win a rally.

[Livewireshock]

This proposal has great merit & follows a logical stream. One chassis with two levels of engine/drivetrain is a good one.

The control elements within S2000 has shown the speed & relative ease manufacturers have in releasing a competitive vehicle. To have an optional increase of engine/turbo/brakes/suspension/gearbox/aero package to step up to a WRC level makes sense.

It lowers development costs with a common chassis. The emphasis stops being a case of keeping everything in house with in a singular factory race team but allows teams from various places to fabricate & construct a vehicle in the way S2000 cars are being built worldwide.

This is concept is hardly revolutionary. This is exactly the standards that NASCAR runs between their main NEXTEL CUP cars & lower level BUSCH NATIONAL cars. Speedway runs sprintcars with a common chassis with various engine sizes.

It allows many competitors to scale up or down as they see fit or as budgets allow. Off the shelf components, either control items or factory, would allow individual teams to make the changes as required. Regional teams could compete with an S2000 for the local championship but upgrade it for when the WRC has an event locally, then go back to S2000 after they have finished.

Having a N/A S2500 or S3000 car, as has been proposed by other forum members, do not allow for a large enough difference between themselves & current S2000 cars. It is for this reason that turbo power may have a place. Also an uprated control drivetrain would be needed too. Lastly an increased level of aero package would increase performance again for the WRC cars as well as distinguishing themselves from the lower S2000 cars.

My final point that some people also do not realise to, not only should the cars look different & go faster. The uprated WRC car should be a much different car to setup, to drive & handle. That raises the skill needed to compete at that level rather than just being a faster version of an S2000. Aero downforce, tyres & other components would help in this area.

[AndyRAC]

This proposal has great merit & follows a logical stream. One chassis with two levels of engine/drivetrain is a good one.

The control elements within S2000 has shown the speed & relative ease manufacturers have in releasing a competitive vehicle. To have an optional increase of engine/turbo/brakes/suspension/gearbox/aero package to step up to a WRC level makes sense.

It lowers development costs with a common chassis. The emphasis stops being a case of keeping everything in house with in a singular factory race team but allows teams from various places to fabricate & construct a vehicle in the way S2000 cars are being built worldwide.

This is concept is hardly revolutionary. This is exactly the standards that NASCAR runs between their main NEXTEL CUP cars & lower level BUSCH NATIONAL cars. Speedway runs sprintcars with a common chassis with various engine sizes.

It allows many competitors to scale up or down as they see fit or as budgets allow. Off the shelf components, either control items or factory, would allow individual teams to make the changes as required. Regional teams could compete with an S2000 for the local championship but upgrade it for when the WRC has an event locally, then go back to S2000 after they have finished.

Having a N/A S2500 or S3000 car, as has been proposed by other forum members, do not allow for a large enough difference between themselves & current S2000 cars. It is for this reason that turbo power may have a place. Also an uprated control drivetrain would be needed too. Lastly an increased level of aero package would increase performance again for the WRC cars as well as distinguishing themselves from the lower S2000 cars.

My final point that some people also do not realise to, not only should the cars look different & go faster. The uprated WRC car should be a much different car to setup & handle to drive & handle. That raises the skill needed to compete at that level rather than just being a faster version of an S2000. Aero downforce, tyres & other components would help in this area.

I quite agree, sounds sensible, 1 car that can be used for National/Regional events then uprated for WRC events, yeah I'm all for that. Are standard or control spefications part of this to cut costs. But would the manufacturers be in favour of this??

[JAM]

I quite agree, sounds sensible, 1 car that can be used for National/Regional events then uprated for WRC events, yeah I'm all for that. Are standard or control spefications part of this to cut costs. But would the manufacturers be in favour of this??

Do you want to know how should be a WRC car? A S2000 with 2litres turbo engine. It would be simple and more cheaper than the actual WRC. How much would cost? Probably not much more than a S2000.

[Bjorn240]

My opinion

9. The only service park created compact rallyes that are very expensive to organizers. As we saw in Argentina with the Buenos Aires SS, is not a big problem to move the structure from one place to another.

That's what you got from Argentina? I think that I, along with the other 147 people on the "blue" plane, would tend to disagree. Remote servicing would be good, but let's make sure it all happens within 150km of the regular service park.

[Livewireshock]

I quite agree, sounds sensible, 1 car that can be used for National/Regional events then uprated for WRC events, yeah I'm all for that. Are standard or control spefications part of this to cut costs. But would the manufacturers be in favour of this??

Control components are a key part of the negotiations. What, which & how is not decided yet. Depends on the final structure of the car they decide on.

If it is a level playing field, there is no reason why manufacturers would not accept it, just like the range of manufacturers that have developed S2000 cars.

The main thing would be the ease of conversion from S2000 to the "WRC" level car. Thus Fiat, Peugeot, VW, Toyota, Ford et al could just up the level to WRC level at a fraction of the cost of developing a current WRC car. All available to individual teams rather than one works team.

It would see the spread of the category happen alot quicker. Customer cars from a wide range of teams would be available unlike the few WRC cars that are built each year.

[Livewireshock]

Do you want to know how should be a WRC car? A S2000 with 2litres turbo engine. It would be simple and more cheaper than the actual WRC. How much would cost? Probably not much more than a S2000.

That is too simplistic a view. As I posted before, an uprated drivetrain/brakes/aero/tyres etc....

Would allow for a visible difference between the cars.

Would make the WRC car a much different car to drive, handle & setup.

The performance of the car would be much greater.

Makes the challenge greater to step up to the WRC level.

[AndyRAC]

So if I understand, you have one chassis, but 2 kits of parts, 1 for WRC and 2 for National/Regional events. Then you swap depending on what event. I'd go further and standardise these kits, so they can be used on any manufacturers car, i.e a control kit.

[Livewireshock]

So if I understand, you have one chassis, but 2 kits of parts, 1 for WRC and 2 for National/Regional events. Then you swap depending on what event. I'd go further and standardise these kits, so they can be used on any manufacturers car, i.e a control kit.

I agree with you on the need for control components, just as S2000 has the control Sadev gearbox & drivetrain.

However things such as engine, bodywork & aerodynamics would need to remain fairly free to individualise the cars.

Speaking of control parts, there are different options for how this can be done.

(a) The obvious choice is to have the FIA say that X part must be supplied by
Y company, just as Pirelli has now won the contract for tyres from next year onwards.

(b) A control specification is developed for a given part so several companies can make & sell the identical item. Thus not shutting out potential sponsors.

(c) A generic part is produced & is allowed to be re-badged by other companies. May be hard to tender out the contract initially but it has been done before.

The final two are favoured by me because you would not have more situations, like we have had this year of Michelin being shut out of the WRC & leading to legal action. It leads to less corporate sponsorship dollars being floated about by component manufacturers.

Control specifications on how a tyre can be built would mean that Dunlop, Michelin, Continental, MRF or whoever you like could build the same item. Tolerances would be monitored & each item would have to be certified by the FIA, which is not impossible once setup properly.

[RallyCat909]

Not to get off topic, but I have been saying for some years now that 4wd has made its point. It has also effectively made the visual aspect for spectators on stage and televison alike antiseptic particularly on tarmac events. Im sure that we can all agree that its faster in most respect as a rallycar performs.

Why not go back to RWD? The need for horsepower would be no more than 350-400 on gravel events, and tarmac would have the crowd pleasing drifts back in full effect. Most rally drivers agree that RWD cars are more fun for all involved anyway. So a limit on engines would be moot point. Perhaps the old marques like BMW, Porsche, and even Mercedes might return to top level rallying. We might even see the occasional Ferrari on tarmac events again. Not to mention lifting the mandate on manufacturers commiting to a full season.


I dunno, maybe I have been watching to many old rally 70s and 80s rally videos.

[Livewireshock]

Basically with 95% of all cars manufactured today being Front Wheel Drive, it suits manufacturers more to adapt their cars to 4WD. That is simply what the factories want. To re-engineer a car that is FWD to RWD, the time, effort & not to mention the cost, it is more logical to house a 4WD drive system. Plus the performance of the 4WD car would be alot better too.

It is also why the JWRC & S1600 is front wheel drive based too.

[AndyRAC]

Just another thought slightly off topic, shouldn't the cars used resemble the road cars, or vice versa. During the Group A era there were road versions of the WRally cars, nowadays you can't go down to Ford or Citroen and purchase a 2L Turbo 4WD car. I know they were expensive, or supposedly so. Pity none made anymore.

[Livewireshock]

Just another thought slightly off topic, shouldn't the cars used resemble the road cars, or vice versa. During the Group A era there were road versions of the WRally cars, nowadays you can't go down to Ford or Citroen and purchase a 2L Turbo 4WD car. I know they were expensive, or supposedly so. Pity none made anymore.

That is the issue with manufacturers. As we all know, only Subaru & Mitsubishi make a 4WD car that is close to being rally ready. It was the entire basis for S2000 to come into being, allowing for more than a two horse race in Gp. N.

To specify that the rally cars matches a road going version, it would be way too expensive for them to constuct such a car in set volumes. Plus as with most car, it would mean that the car would have to be front wheel drive etc...

The easier method that allows for road going pleasure is through the bodywork. Flare, wings & other modifications would be easier to produce. Allowing for a token cosmetic effort with out the need for retooling a factory assembly line for major engineering changes required for engines & drivetrain.

Lastly, it would be hard for a manufacturer to produce a road going car with control components. Styling cues are the only avenue at a sensible price.

[AndyRAC]

That is the issue with manufacturers. As we all know, only Subaru & Mitsubishi make a 4WD car that is close to being rally ready. It was the entire basis for S2000 to come into being, allowing for more than a two horse race in Gp. N.

To specify that the rally cars matches a road going version, it would be way too expensive for them to constuct such a car in set volumes. Plus as with most car, it would mean that the car would have to be front wheel drive etc...

The easier method that allows for road going pleasure is through the bodywork. Flare, wings & other modifications would be easier to produce. Allowing for a token cosmetic effort with out the need for retooling a factory assembly line for major engineering changes required for engines & drivetrain.

Lastly, it would be hard for a manufacturer to produce a road going car with control components. Styling cues are the only avenue at a sensible price.

Just as I thought. That was the reasoning behind the WRCar formula. enabling manufacturers into the sport who didn't have a 2L Turbo 4WD car. Agree that styling cues are most likely, seems a shame when the FIA want WRC to be Production based (Family Saloons) yet Joe Public can only buy a Subaru or Mitsubishi. I'd like to see a variety of cars in the championship, i.e Nissan 350z, Porsche 911 GT3, Aston Martin Vantage Rally GT, for the Tarmac rounds. I'd even hope BMW and others would enter. I am a realist though, not ging to happen.

[Livewireshock]

Just as I thought. That was the reasoning behind the WRCar formula. enabling manufacturers into the sport who didn't have a 2L Turbo 4WD car. Agree that styling cues are most likely, seems a shame when the FIA want WRC to be Production based (Family Saloons) yet Joe Public can only buy a Subaru or Mitsubishi. I'd like to see a variety of cars in the championship, i.e Nissan 350z, Porsche 911 GT3, Aston Martin Vantage Rally GT, for the Tarmac rounds. I'd even hope BMW and others would enter. I am a realist though, not ging to happen.

For people with exotic cars like the ones you mentioned, you are really talking about another championship all together. Here in Australia & NZ we have two types of tarmac rallying. First off there is the Targa events which are large headline events with classics & modern sportscars alike. But it is not organised into a set championship. Then there is the Dutton series which runs in most states, but is at a lesser level. The standard of racing is mainly amateur (Japanese hot imports, European sportscars, Muscle cars) but the Targa events do have manufacturer backed teams (Lambo, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Mini, Toyota etc.......).

There is a place for such vehicles but not in the WRC. Especially for select rounds only. It would detract from the main overall competition, especially if they are capable of outright honours.

Plus parity would be the biggest nightmare. How can you manage so many varied vehicles & keep them in line with the WRC cars? A scrutineers nightmare!

[Roy]

Marc van Dalen about the future
Q:
Are you worried about the state of the sport at the moment then?

MvD:
Not really now, but in the immediate future, if there is only official and works teams involved there are not enough cars. Last year there was Red Bull Skoda and Bozian Peugeot and those teams are not involved in the WRC anymore. This is not normal. We are the only ones, the last one and believe me it is not easy. That means perhaps this is the last year for us also in the WRC. It is time everyone understood it is time to change some things and it is better to put money to help teams than to go to Buenos Aires for nothing. This is not what we expect.

http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~4~id~148044.htm

[grugsticles]

Hmm, is it just me or does it seem like there is an invisible rule where there can only be 6 teams entered in the WRC?

It just seems that if a team drops out, like Pug and Skoda did at once, it just so happened that Stobart and Muchichcichcichci or whatever they are were there to just step in?

[Sulland]

Has any news from the meeting on the 15th been "leaked" ?

[Xeroid]

At least someone is looking at the future seriously and Morrie is a pretty practical sort of guy. Outcome may not suit everybody, it never does but at least there is a plan so manu's can stick to it. We've had too many changes at the last minute over last few years which screws up everybody's work.
I'd like to see more manu's involved and if it is closer to road vehicles specs then it has more relevance to them and better translated to the 'Win Sunday, sell more Monday" philiosophy.

Which ever way you look at it this is just a big marketing exercise for the manu's so that's where they wil put their money. Real racing happens down at the amateur level where they do it just for the hell of it and the fun.

[Maui J.]

What I would like to see change is the Manufacturers 'permission' rule. Correct me if I'm wrong here but for a company like Prodrive to enter Subaru in the WRC the FIA needs the manufacturers consent.
What I would like to see is some rule that allows anyone to produce WRCars without the permission of the manufactrer. As it stands Prodrive contracts to Subaru and MSport to Ford. Citroen is inhouse of course.
Why can't I buy a road going Mazda 3 or Alfa 147 and convert it to a WRCar as long as I follow the rules (well maybe not me but someone with a bunch of cash).
With S2000 it seems anyone can build a car.

If manufacturers want to jump in later and help out, then fantastic. This happened with Hyundai when an Australian rally team started using 'homemade' Hyundai Scoupe in F2 class in the early/mid 90s which lead to Hyundai's invovlment in the WRC.

Another example of this was in the GroupB era. In the US championship John Buffum dominated in an ex-works Quattro. Ex-pat Kiwi Rod Millen was struggling in his 2WD Mazda RX7 to challenge so built a 4WD version and started taking victories off the Audi and won the championship in 1985. Mazda Japan took a lot of notice and were very impressed, and as I believe where going to commission Millen to build more for the WRC, but of course the GroupB era ended before it was taken any further.

In F1 this is how teams like McLaren started. Bruce Mclaren read the rule book and made a race car. Simple.

[Daniel]

Oh please.... :rolleyes:
My thoughts exactly Jamie :laugh:

[AndyRAC]

What I would like to see change is the Manufacturers 'permission' rule. Correct me if I'm wrong here but for a company like Prodrive to enter Subaru in the WRC the FIA needs the manufacturers consent.
What I would like to see is some rule that allows anyone to produce WRCars without the permission of the manufactrer. As it stands Prodrive contracts to Subaru and MSport to Ford. Citroen is inhouse of course.
Why can't I buy a road going Mazda 3 or Alfa 147 and convert it to a WRCar as long as I follow the rules (well maybe not me but someone with a bunch of cash).
With S2000 it seems anyone can build a car.

If manufacturers want to jump in later and help out, then fantastic. This happened with Hyundai when an Australian rally team started using 'homemade' Hyundai Scoupe in F2 class in the early/mid 90s which lead to Hyundai's invovlment in the WRC.

Another example of this was in the GroupB era. In the US championship John Buffum dominated in an ex-works Quattro. Ex-pat Kiwi Rod Millen was struggling in his 2WD Mazda RX7 to challenge so built a 4WD version and started taking victories off the Audi and won the championship in 1985. Mazda Japan took a lot of notice and were very impressed, and as I believe where going to commission Millen to build more for the WRC, but of course the GroupB era ended before it was taken any further.

In F1 this is how teams like McLaren started. Bruce Mclaren read the rule book and made a race car. Simple.

Sounds a great idea, but can't see it happening, the FIA want the WRC to be Production based with the blessing of the Manufacturers. But in this current era of few manufacturers, few drivers, very little interest, it would make sense for any Preparation company to enter with a make of car.