[WRC] Monza Rally 2020

[mknight]

They cope with what is given by the rules. It's not their mistake and for me there is no point to bring this point to the drivers discussion.

But it is a big point in drivers discussion.

As a team boss in WRC whom would you pick. A driver winning WRC2 when he has limited number of competitors or WRC3 driver that actually is fastest (like Solberg (
"private" driver with factory support) or Huttunen).

As a driver wanting to drive WRC where should you go? Drive WRC2 (and probably get paid) or drive WRC3 and have more comptetition.

Nothing of this is Østbergs fault and it doesn't diminish that he beat what was there. Still doesn't mean it's not a problem.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Great season Elfyn.

[Lead]

Congrats to Kristensson!

[EstWRC]

Evans fans need a miracle now

but youll never know...

[cali]

Evans fans need a miracle now

but youll never know...No miracles

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[Mirek]

But it is a big point in drivers discussion.

As a team boss in WRC whom would you pick. A driver winning WRC2 when he has limited number of competitors or WRC3 driver that actually is fastest (like Solberg (
"private" driver with factory support) or Huttunen).

As a driver wanting to drive WRC where should you go? Drive WRC2 (and probably get paid) or drive WRC3 and have more comptetition.

Nothing of this is Østbergs fault and it doesn't diminish that he beat what was there. Still doesn't mean it's not a problem.

No WRC team boss picks Ostberg or Tidemand anyway. They are too old for that.

[meh]

Katsuta for PS win? :)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Good run Taka !

[EstWRC]

was Kaj scrolling EWRC or did i see wrong?

[cali]

Taka is improving every rally speedwise. Well done!

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[PLuto]

Taka is improving every rally speedwise. Well done!

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But he has still the same problems - stay on the road for whole rally.

[Mirek]

I have to admit that I didn't believe Vlček (team boss of Huttunen) could ever manage something on his own when he left Orsák's team and started the Hyundai project few years back and I know that I was not the only one. Now he won the WRC3 title with Huttunen. Good job!

[PLuto]

No WRC team boss picks Ostberg or Tidemand anyway. They are too old for that.

If they will pay, everything is possible.

[cali]

But he has still the same problems - stay on the road for whole rally.Sure, that's what he need to improve the most. But it's always more problematic to find speed than consistency. I'm pleasantly surprised by his progress.

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[MTA]

was Kaj scrolling EWRC or did i see wrong?


Yes he was :D

[Fast Eddie WRC]

A year to forget for M-Sport.

[EstWRC]

stage seems to get worse after split 1

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Lappi not back in '21 !

[Rallyper]

No Lappi next year?? Means no MSport as well or what?

[TypeR]

Sad to hear from Lappi, that he won't drive next year..

[jonkka]

Lappi not back in '21 !

Who was surprised, honestly?

[er88]

Msport are pissing me off.

Sorry for Lappi

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Who was surprised, honestly?

That he said it here though.

[TypeR]

Will Taka get his first stage win and it will be PS? :)

[Milujeme Rally]

Lappi will it not continue next year in M-sport ???

[denkimi]

will m-sport continue anyway?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Lappi's Citroen contact money now gone.

[PLuto]

Will Taka get his first stage win and it will be PS? :)

He has big chance as nobody needs to push, everybody only needs to finish the stage because of points (drivers, manu).

[jonkka]

Lappi's Citroen contact money now gone.

There you have it.

[mknight]

I wonder if anyone in the world even bet that Katsuta can win PS.

[T16]

will m-sport continue anyway?

I did wonder this too.

[EstWRC]

Congrats Hyundai for manu title.

[jonkka]

Hyundai applause not very spirited?

[er88]

Lappi's Citroen contact money now gone.Whatever. He's still a better driver than anyone else who will b paying 2 drive in a faulty team/car next season.

I thought Mikkelsen should bring budget but maybe it's wise that he won't

[meh]

Katsuta for PS win? :)

Who had it in their predictions? :)

[EstWRC]

wipers nor wroking for oger

[Humber]

Greensmith #1 driver for M-sport in 2021?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ogier 7x Champion and with 3 different teams. :champion:

[mknight]

Whatever. He's still a better driver than anyone else who will b paying 2 drive in a faulty team/car next season.

I thought Mikkelsen should bring budget but maybe it's wise that he won't

No point to pay to be last WRC. Applies both to Lappi and Mikkelsen.

Only reason could be quaranteed seat for 2022.

[er88]

Well said Ogier. Incredible driver

[T16]

Nice words from Ogier there.

[Mirek]

Sixteen titles of both Sebastiens with only one of Ott in between. Incredible.

[PLuto]

No point to pay to be last WRC. Applies both to Lappi and Mikkelsen.

Only reason could be quaranteed seat for 2022.

So better to stay at home and do nothig?

[er88]

No point to pay to be last WRC. Applies both to Lappi and Mikkelsen.

Only reason could be quaranteed seat for 2022.Yep. Both should be in the top class but no point paying Msport atm

[MTA]

Congratulations Ogier!
Well worth winner and to prove it with the 3rd car brand!

[EstWRC]

Tänak "just" 17 points down in the end with big 0 in MOnte and with car issue in Turkey and Sardegna, which actually cost him the most IMO

anyway, more motivation to take it back next year

[meh]

Tänak "just" 17 points down in the end with big 0 in MOnte and with car issue in Turkey and Sardegna, which actually cost him the most IMO

anyway, more motivation to take it back next year

Also, if you want to have titles, you need to have Tänak in team:

2020 - Hyundai, manufacturers title
2019 - Toyota, drivers Title
2018 - Toyota, manufacturers title
2017 - M-Sport, manufacturers title

[TypeR]

is everything okay w Adamo? seems very off.. but still really emotional talk from him!

[mknight]

So better to stay at home and do nothig?
Better drive Rally2 car, where that's the big question.

Btw. this also applies to Solberg. With the addition that there is no point to learn current WRC var.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

is everything okay w Adamo? seems very off.. but still really emotional talk from him!
Hyundai to quit now they've won again ?

[Mirek]

is everything okay w Adamo? seems very off.. but still really emotional talk from him!

He lost some friends due to Covid this year as it seems and all the emotions came together in this very moment. I can understand him.

[MTA]

Better drive Rally2 car, where that's the big question.

Btw. this also applies to Solberg. With the addition that there is no point to learn current WRC var.

Think Lappi, Mikkelsen, Östberg, Solberg, Huttinen, Tideman in WRC2! : D

[mknight]

Also, if you want to have titles, you need to have Tänak in team:

2020 - Hyundai, manufacturers title
2019 - Toyota, drivers Title
2018 - Toyota, manufacturers title
2017 - M-Sport, manufacturers title

No disrespect to Tanak, but even over these 4 years Ogier has same number of driver+manu titles.

[MTA]

Why are the others not on poduim?

Edit: Aha, so they handed out the title first?

[EstWRC]

hahaha Estonian flag for Sordo, lmao


he has a estonian girlfriend but doesnt mean that he is estonian now because of that

[Augury]

What a way to end the broadcast.

[TypeR]

He lost some friends due to Covid this year as it seems and all the emotions came together in this very moment. I can understand him.
Okay, thanks for clearing that.. :/

[dimviii]

did you see Makinen with Tanak?

[PLuto]

Why are the others not on poduim?

Edit: Aha, so they handed out the title first?

Covid rules...

[EstWRC]

did you see Makinen with Tanak?

nope, what was there?

[Rally Power]

Sad for Evans; I was still waiting for a last minute surprise but eventually Ogier won another title (wonder if he'll now consider it as a less valuable one). Congrats to Hyundai and the other categories champs.

At the end this was a strange rally on a strange season and one can only hope, like Tanak said, that things can be back to normal ASAP. Fingers crossed.

[mknight]

Hyundai won the title for a big part due 3rd driver switching, just like last year. It's not that Rovanpera disappointed, but he certainly wasn't fighting for podium on all rallies like Hyundai replacement drivers normally did (except Monte and Sweden).
Off course road cleaning also had an effect.

[TypeR]

nope, what was there?

Tommi only congratulated Sordo and del Barrio and not Tänak/Järveoja?
or smth else..?

[Rallyper]

Oliver Solberg shining in this event.

[Eli]

Sad to hear from Lappi, that he won't drive next year..

Really sad not to see him in MC next year (or for 2021 for that matter). He did the best he could given the few tools he had this year.

[dimviii]

Tommi only congratulated Sordo and del Barrio and not Tänak/Järveoja?
or smth else..?
that,Makinen congratulate Sordo,but not Tanak.

[Lead]

Oliver Solberg shining in this event.

Great result for him! This years ERC junior champ and now 2nd R5 in Monza. Fantastic season finale. I'm sure father will be proud of him.

[dimviii]

Congrats to Ogier-Ingrassia for their 7th title.
Well deserved,and not less valuable from the rest of course.
Congrats to Hyundai for their second manufacture title.

[Eli]

Can't believe it's the last rally for Michelin, it's been a good 10 years with them (yes I know it's from 2011 but it counts to 10 seasons), really hope they won't have too much trouble with Pirelli next year, congrats again to Ogier & Hyundai, again they showed how important it is to stay consistent which is a bit ironic considering Evans 'chose' the worst time to drop the ball. Hopefully next year will be without as many cancelled events. Fingers crossed for the future.

[flykas]

Congrats to the champs Seb and Julien. I was hoping they would win though their chances were not looking so good before this event, but masters did it again. Some people say it is boring to have the same champions for many years, but I just love watching their mastery and they really deserve this. Sad for Evans though, he was very impressive this season and a world title would have been very special for him, but I can bet he will show this incredible pace next year and it will be very interesting.

[EstWRC]

that,Makinen congratulate Sordo,but not Tanak.

im not surprised to be honest, the departure and their relationship wasnt the best last year

[AnttiL]

Those who were angry about stage cancellation yesterday, some reading for you :)

https://www.severe-weather.eu/mcd/extreme-snow-italy-alps-europe-mk/

It is exceptional situation and in exceptional circumstances, models does not work well, because they learn from existing cases.

If you go just a few tens of km-s north from rally route you can see already meters of snow. and if you read this article, you can see that maximum expected snow in the mountains region is over 5 meters, then you must understand that in the region hit severely by COVID and now by flooding and snowstorm, you just cannot direct all your best forces and machines to secure sport event. I know it is frustrating for us, but we have to understand also the general picture. Even if you have access by ambulance or firetruck along the stage (organizers put huge efforts to clean the stage overnight), if you access roads are blocked by snow and imagine the stage is blocked by crashed cars on the narrow steep downhill route, you just cannot take too much risks.

Thanks for this

[AnttiL]

If they will pay, everything is possible.

But in that case the results don't matter

[dimviii]

btw Munster rolled at power stage

[Crazy J]

that,Makinen congratulate Sordo,but not Tanak. im not surprised to be honest, the departure and their relationship wasnt the best last year
or it could be that Makinen congratulated others already outside of TV cameras and therefore Sordo and del Barrio on podium only

[dimviii]

....but how did you see that Toyota lost the manufacture championship?
could be different if Makinen had apply orders at his team about Nr 1 ?
feel free to discuss.
i am going for a nap,and looking forward to read your opinion.

[EstWRC]

i dont know why, but with each day the rally coming to closer and closer....

the more i have a feeling that Ogier will snatch the title, i dont wish or want it but i just have this feeling.

we will see in a week if my feeling was right or wrong.

sadly my feeling was right

although with snatching i was thinking more of a close fight with Ogier JUST beating him with points.

[mknight]

....but how did you see that Toyota lost the manufacture championship?
could be different if Makinen had apply orders at his team about Nr 1 ?
feel free to discuss.
i am going for a nap,and looking forward to read your opinion.

For same reasons we talked about in January when they announced the teams.

Rovanpera had to in his first season outscore Loeb/Sordo (+ someone who turned to be Breen) on their best events and with road advantage.
It's not a surprise he did not do that.

At the same time Evans had to outscore one of Tanak/Neuville which he actually managed, much to the surprise of a lot of people.

So Toyota actually did much better than most people including me expected.

What could they have done different?
Either
a) Rotate 3driver (for example with Latvala in the loop, but he is good on same rallies as Rovanpera atm or other drivers)
b) Hire full time 3rd driver that could outscore the mentioned Hyundai 3rd drivers. Latvala and Meeke did not manage that in 2019. Possible options were Lappi or Mikkelsen. Neither of them seem to be popular at Toyota (maybe also due to Jouhki, and Jouhki backs Rovanpera, so that wouldn't probably work well). It's off course not certain they would do better when Sordo/Loeb/Breen had road position advantages on gravel rallies.

[AnttiL]

Toyota had P1 and P2 in the drivers championship but didn't still win the manufacturers title. That's quite rare...

[EstWRC]

quite interesting that the two champions finished the seasons thoughest rally in 1-2.

vert good rally from Sordo IMO, i have always understood that he doesnt like rallies with conditions like this, said it himself too in an interview before the rally but very good speed from him. on friday i thought maybe the back starters had some advantage but proved on saturday that it wasnt so.

really good driving also from Lappi, such a shame that snowy stage was cancelled (dont get me wrong it was right to cancel), he could have had massive time there.

Rovanpera also with a good steady drive, although maybe i expected a more speed from him. Takamoto was also superb, such a shame about that mistake on first stage.

One day on this circuit is okay for me with this rally (but only Sunday), but definitely two days needs to be on proper stages which were awesome btw. that way this rally could be a regular in the calendar for me.

[Sulland]

Still feel for Evans.
Sliding off in low speed, and knowing what just happenend.
It is always good with a new World Champion, instead of one taking his 7th.

[RS]

Ostberg was the fastest through the season, he deserved the title.

Agree, but what was this talk that he was the 'underdog'?

[focus206]

Good job by Ogier, I think he deserves the title. He didn't make any big mistakes this season and his only retirement was due to technical failure. I'm no fan of him, but I'm glad he won this year, better luck next year for Evans, Neuville and Tanak as well. Hopefully next season is better than this one, with more rounds, less cancellations and less circuit stages.

[Mirek]

Agree, but what was this talk that he was the 'underdog'?

Which talk?

[Rally Power]

Congrats to Ogier-Ingrassia for their 7th title.
Well deserved,and not less valuable from the rest of course.


Agree, but the one considering it less valuable was Ogier, when Evans was still the main favourite https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/ogier-2020-title-worth-less/4919034/

[meh]

Valued or not, it was taken by Ogier without being number 1 in the team and without teamorders. Haven't been always the case.

[BigWorm]

Full credit to Ogier, he finds himself in these situations and always makes the most of it. Can't help but feel Evans missed somewhat of an open goal here, will be interesting to see how he responds next year.

[EstWRC]

Lol https://twitter.com/nocontext_rally/status/1335592662049677315?s=21

[RS]

Which talk?

Sorry, i didn't mean you.. Mad's end of stage comment:

*(21 - Østberg Mads / Eriksen Torstein):*t's unbelievable. I am really happy - such a difficult weekend with so many ups and downs all through the year. We have won the championship as the underdogs and we have developed the car through the year - just an amazing job by the team to get to where we are now.

[mknight]

It says om ewrc-results that Munster managed to roll om PS.

[PLuto]

It says om ewrc-results that Munster managed to roll om PS.

Not only (https://rally-base.com/2020/aci-rally-monza-2020/?ssId=6058&ssGroupId=1) ewrc ;)

[denkimi]

It says om ewrc-results that Munster managed to roll om PS.
https://www.facebook.com/204577686705110/posts/994418244387713/?sfnsn=mo

[PLuto]

In fact it was not bad rally, but mixture of weather helped really a lot. If it will be only dry tarmac, it should be very boring. Saturday stages were really good and it is pity that they were not able to do properly all of them. Especially with the snow it should be interesting. Regarding stages in Monza - they have tried to do maximum and make them interesting as much as possible, but I must say I dont like them. Same like I never liked Monza Rally Show, which was on the other side more show than proper race. So next time, if Monza will be added to the calendar, it should be good to make only super special stage on the circuit and everything else outside, on proper stages.

[EstWRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eojh6MrW4AEFpof?format=jpg&name=large

[EstWRC]

if i understand correctly, this is the first time that a teammate finishes ahead of Thierry in the championship standings, at least from 2013 onwards.

i didnt count 2012 cause it was his debut year or if you want to count it then 2012 was the last time.

[mknight]

if i understand correctly, this is the first time that a teammate finishes ahead of Thierry in the championship standings, at least from 2013 onwards.

i didnt count 2012 cause it was his debut year or if you want to count it then 2012 was the last time.
Out of those years in 2014, 2015, 2017 and 2019 none of his teammates drove full season. So you only get 2013, 2016, 2018 and this year.

Imo this standard of dropping other drivers at Hyundai also shows his position in the team.

[AnttiL]

One day on this circuit is okay for me with this rally (but only Sunday), but definitely two days needs to be on proper stages which were awesome btw. that way this rally could be a regular in the calendar for me.
Yeah, this or then having the opening super special and one stage at the end of Friday and Saturday at the circuit.

[AnttiL]

Out of those years in 2014, 2015, 2017 and 2019 none of his teammates drove full season. So you only get 2013, 2016, 2018 and this year.

Imo this standard of dropping other drivers at Hyundai also shows his position in the team.

In 2017 Paddon and Sordo missed only one event each and it wouldn't have really changed the game

[Franky]

Yeah, this or then having the opening super special and one stage at the end of Friday and Saturday at the circuit.

Considering the location of the circuit, you could do three runs there. Friday evening and twice on Saturday as the last stage of the loop.

[mknight]

Almost at the end of this vid you can see the 0 car (4wd Yaris GR) near the top of SS12 just before it got cancelled:

https://youtu.be/_HLADpTpFhU

[dimviii]

this must be the wire rope that cause the roll of Munster

https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/130185418_3302612609836050_150413730840630355_o.jp g?_nc_cat=104&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=dmYgP7BAl_oAX-yEy0q&_nc_ht=scontent-bru2-1.xx&oh=e9b420b6bdcdfe8edfacfa338eefde8e&oe=5FF307EC

[Essaj]

Almost at the end of this vid you can see the 0 car (4wd Yaris GR) near the top of SS12 just before it got cancelled:

https://youtu.be/_HLADpTpFhU

How great would have that been :(

[dimviii]

Sébastien Ogier
@SebOgier
Flying back in good company!
Trophy
Thanks #excelljets for bringing me home quickly to celebrate @OfficialWRC
title number 7 with my family !!


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EokiSbXXYAMULfg?format=jpg&name=large

[dimviii]

Ruben Perez
@RubnPerez
Sometimes champions also need their moments of solitude, of time for themselves.

This is Sébastien Ogier today after the #ACIRallyMonza awards ceremony.

Surely ordering your mind, assimilating this new title that is going to your showcases. #WRC

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EokZqD6XYAEt3Le?format=jpg&name=large

[mknight]

How great would have that been :(

I am not sure cars on wide rain tires would even get up tbh. Even 4wd ones. That would be seriously embarassing.

[dimviii]

WRC, Thierry Neuville's 2020 report: "We lacked consistency ..."


"It's hard to say if the strongest won this year. It's still Ogier who deserved the title, especially after the race this weekend. We all had problems, techniques or mistakes. on our part, during the season. Evans just made a mistake this Saturday, it upset the final classification. On the team side, Hyundai has achieved a lot of podiums in the last races, often with two cars. We were strong I think . I note that we also encountered the greatest number of problems with losses of points. Personally, it was a particular season. There were ups and downs, clearly. We were prevented from bringing back the victory in Turkey and Sardinia, with electronic problems in particular. These are precious points that we miss. This weekend, I did not ensure, I did not do the work. We also had an engine problem , preventing us from leaving. The main objective, the constructors' title, was fulfilled thanks to the a collaboration with the other crews ", specified the Belgian at our microphone at the end of the round at Monza.

And what does our compatriot respond to those who say he will never be world champion? "Everyone has their own judgment. I have been in the WRC for many years, I know that we give our best every time. We are here because rallying has always been a passion for me. I continue to do what I can to be champion. We know that the constructors' title is becoming more and more important for the teams because it is what allows them to prolong their commitment in the discipline. This year, it is true that we lacked consistency , in particular because of the worries and the deviation of trajectory in Estonia. I assume my responsibility this weekend even if the final abandonment is not related to the touch with the concrete block. These are circumstances of racing. Rallying remains an extreme sport, but despite everything I enjoy myself behind the wheel of my car. The team is happy with our services, that's the main thing, "he explains.

Not really time to think about it or think about this season for very long. In three days, Neuville will already carry out tests for the Monte-Carlo 2021, which will be held in six weeks. Preparations at the factory and upstream to prepare for the new season, a new opportunity for the Belgian to make his dream come true.

https://www.rtbf.be/sport/moteurs/rallye/wrc/detail_le-bilan-2020-de-neuville-on-a-manque-de-constance-j-assume-ma-responsabilite?id=10647525

[mknight]

WRC, Thierry Neuville's 2020 report: "We lacked consistency ..."

We were prevented from bringing back the victory in Turkey and Sardinia, with electronic problems in particular. These are precious points that we miss.

https://www.rtbf.be/sport/moteurs/rallye/wrc/detail_le-bilan-2020-de-neuville-on-a-manque-de-constance-j-assume-ma-responsabilite?id=10647525

What electric problems in Turkey and Sardinia? I can't recall any and did not find any for him. Does he mean for Tanak?

Neuville had an issue in Mexico.

[Mirek]

I am not sure cars on wide rain tires would even get up tbh. Even 4wd ones. That would be seriously embarassing.

4WD on snow tyres would, those on rain tyres would have problems. 2WD especially if without snow tyres would have very serious problems and could block the stage.

[dimviii]

For same reasons we talked about in January when they announced the teams.

Rovanpera had to in his first season outscore Loeb/Sordo (+ someone who turned to be Breen) on their best events and with road advantage.
It's not a surprise he did not do that.

At the same time Evans had to outscore one of Tanak/Neuville which he actually managed, much to the surprise of a lot of people.

So Toyota actually did much better than most people including me expected.

What could they have done different?
Either
a) Rotate 3driver (for example with Latvala in the loop, but he is good on same rallies as Rovanpera atm or other drivers)
b) Hire full time 3rd driver that could outscore the mentioned Hyundai 3rd drivers. Latvala and Meeke did not manage that in 2019. Possible options were Lappi or Mikkelsen. Neither of them seem to be popular at Toyota (maybe also due to Jouhki, and Jouhki backs Rovanpera, so that wouldn't probably work well). It's off course not certain they would do better when Sordo/Loeb/Breen had road position advantages on gravel rallies.

thanks for answering mknight.

so toyota managed to lost the manufacturer championship while at drivers had 1-2.
Is this a wrong approach from Makinen or not?

this question is not particularly to mknight,but for everyone.

Imho it was a wrong approach.

[AnttiL]

https://www.fia.com/news/wrc-s-ogier-season-definitely-has-been-special

[mknight]

thanks for answering mknight.

so toyota managed to lost the manufacturer championship while at drivers had 1-2.
Is this a wrong approach from Makinen or not?

this question is not particularly to mknight,but for everyone.

Imho it was a wrong approach.

It clearly reflects different approach. Hyundai with Adamo will do everything possible to win, everything. (buy Tanak, rotate drivers, kick drivers every 6 months...).
VW also had a "full commitment" approach though not nearly on the Hyundai level.

Toyota (= Makinen) has more "gentlemens" approach of how it is usually done. "All drivers do full season" (when asked 2 years back) and again reflected this year in Sweden when they let Kalle take points off Ogier.

In long term Hyundai should be more successful.

[mknight]

I definitely recommend everyone to watch SS11 onboard, that stage was totally worthy deciding a world champion.

What a timing for the precipitation to turn into snow! And relatively small section with lots of snow, so I don't blame MSport that much for not getting it to Lappi.

Katsuka has obviously no one ahead of him on the stage so there was some snow, but by Tanak it was like medium-bad. Ogier seems to have by far the worst conditions with slush turning white basically everywhere. After Tidemand it clears a lot and starts to melt (hence top times by late RC2s and even RC4s.)

About that crash location:

Tanak has epic reaction to the surface change, seemingly pushing hard right until two corners before and then he slows down a lot. (maybe had surface chance in notes?, note that Evans didn't crash there yet so he didn't get warning from that)

Evans has "new tar" 2 corners before and 2x shiny while he approaches, yet picks the line on the left (in snow) rather than staying on the cleaned inside. Quite clear mistake tbh.

Ogier is warned so he stays inside, hard to say how it would have ended. However, his drive on rest of the stage is truly worthy of champion.

---

Østberg coming to that area is like entering a warzone, first he sees Evans down, then next corner crash-marks on right from Formaux who is parked around the corner. Then further 100m on Tidemands marks into the hill and two corners later prbly Lappis sliding marks.

[dimviii]

It clearly reflects different approach. Hyundai with Adamo will do everything possible to win, everything. (buy Tanak, rotate drivers, kick drivers every 6 months...).
VW also had a "full commitment" approach though not nearly on the Hyundai level.

Toyota (= Makinen) has more "gentlemens" approach of how it is usually done. "All drivers do full season" (when asked 2 years back) and again reflected this year in Sweden when they let Kalle take points off Ogier.

In long term Hyundai should be more successful.

so with ''gentlemans approach'' toyota has lost 2 world championships,while their drivers won the championship.
I wouldnt be satisfied if i was Mr Toyoda.

[AnttiL]

This year they lost by 5 points, that's all down to random luck really. Last year they lost by 18 points. That comes already from the broken rims in Monte and Corsica...

Hyundai's driver rotation is good for securing starting positions on gravel rallies. Drivers get long breaks but everyone got them this year.

Finally, you can't help noticing how good Dani Sordo has been the two last seasons. All Top 5 results (well, 6th in Argentina 2019) when the car doesn't fail him.

[seb_sh]

It clearly reflects different approach. Hyundai with Adamo will do everything possible to win, everything. (buy Tanak, rotate drivers, kick drivers every 6 months...).
VW also had a "full commitment" approach though not nearly on the Hyundai level.

Toyota (= Makinen) has more "gentlemens" approach of how it is usually done. "All drivers do full season" (when asked 2 years back) and again reflected this year in Sweden when they let Kalle take points off Ogier.

In long term Hyundai should be more successful.

I see it slightly differently, in hindsight, Hyundai smartly used their available drivers to get good road order and driver-rally affinity. This was a quite common practice in the WRC and except for the recent period, specialist drivers were normal.

In the long term Toyota is investing in their drivers. And maybe in the long term it will be better to have the complete drivers who will usually beat the specialists. In the Loeb/Ogier era we didn't see many specialists because the regular drivers were so good everywhere. There are very few specialists nowadays that can beat the main drivers even with road position advantage and it doesn't happen always. I think Hyundai pushed to the max and got a bit lucky with their 3rd driver performances, I'm thinking of Sordo especially made max use of his road position in this short year.

Possibly next year it could work as well since there are not so many rallies and there is a long run of gravel rallies in the middle of the year. What if Hyundai brings 3 or 4 drivers in the 3rd car and rotates them for the gravel season so that they always have road order advantage?

[dimviii]

This year they lost by 5 points, that's all down to random luck really. Last year they lost by 18 points. That comes already from the broken rims in Monte and Corsica...

Hyundai's driver rotation is good for securing starting positions on gravel rallies. Drivers get long breaks but everyone got them this year.

Finally, you can't help noticing how good Dani Sordo has been the two last seasons. All Top 5 results (well, 6th in Argentina 2019) when the car doesn't fail him.

i see it with different view.
It wasnt luck.It was just Adamos way of managing clever the tools he had.
He hadnt the best car,he hadnt the best drivers,but he won 2 years.
Hats off to him.
The strange (and unforgivable for me) is that Makinen didnt do the same, when he saw how he lost the previous yearwith the same Adamos tactic.

[AnttiL]

i see it with different view.
It wasnt luck.It was just Adamos way of managing clever the tools he had.
He hadnt the best car,he hadnt the best drivers,but he won 2 years.
Hats off to him.
The strange (and unforgivable for me) is that Makinen didnt do the same, when he saw how he lost the previous yearwith the same Adamos tactic.

Not the best drivers? At the start of 2020 it seemed Hyundai would have no competition because they had two of the three title contenders of the past three years. We didn't know how good Evans would be on the Toyota. And in 2019 they had god damn Loeb in the team (who had just won Catalunya in 2018). Besides, the driver rotation was already used in 2018 before Adamo was leading the team (and the same ever rotating line up with Mikkelsen added at the end of 2017)

You can also think what a lucky strike it was for Toyota that Citroen decided to quit (or that Ogier decided to go to Toyota). It would have been a different year now...Neuville+Tänak vs Evans+Latvala?

[seb_sh]

And indeed to underscore the point, this year Sordo's Sardinia performance along with Evans crash in Monza made the difference for Hyundai, it was only 5 points after all. They played their cards and got a bit lucky I say.

But if you look at the history many times the champion manufacturer had such strategies, for example Peugeot in the early 2000s or Subaru vs Mitsubishi in the late 90s. On the other hand Citroen with Loeb plus Sordo or Hirvonen and then VW with Ogier and Latvala/Mikkelsen didn't care about specialists as their drivers were best anyway.

[dimviii]

Not the best drivers?

according to drivers championship points no.Last 2 years best drivers were with Toyota.

[AnttiL]

according to drivers championship points no.Last 2 years best drivers were with Toyota.

Remember that the points don't come just through driver skill...the car must also perform and make it to the finish.

[seb_sh]

Guys consider that it was a short year, in this case exceptions like Sordo's win in Sardinia weight more.

[dimviii]

Remember that the points don't come just through driver skill...the car must also perform and make it to the finish.

yes thats right,but did toyota had an unreliable car that this caused the lack of championships?
No for me. You cant have an unreliable car,and make 1-2 at drivers.

[mknight]

In the Loeb/Ogier era we didn't see many specialists because the regular drivers were so good everywhere. There are very few specialists nowadays that can beat the main drivers even with road position advantage and it doesn't happen always. I think Hyundai pushed to the max and got a bit lucky with their 3rd driver performances, I'm thinking of Sordo especially made max use of his road position in this short year.

In Loeb era you didn't see specialists mostly because you could only enter 2 cars that could score points, not 2 out of 3, this was also true for first few years with Ogier/VW if you recall.

I don't think there is a shortage of specialists, Østberg in Citroen 2018 was pretty much working as a specialist and it worked on fast gravel, Breen is essentially a specialist at this point too (based on his run at Citroen in 2017-18).

[EstWRC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pErc_uYNvbg

[mknight]

Mikkelsen's video blog:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GmADNrQmhk

- he took 4 wet, 2 snow on Saturday morning, broke the gear on SS7 as reported and then put on crossed tires for SS10 unlike Solberg and Østberg (you can see that from outside vids too)
- doesn't say anything about tires for afternoon or about the whole snow situation, so I guess he didn't have 4 snow, but probably had 2 else he wouldn't post SS11 time like that. I haven't seen anywhere what Solberg had if it was 2 or 4 snow.

Fun bits:
- Marcus Gronholm advising in Swedish before final stage "drive in the middle of the road"
- O. Solbergs WRC3 podium plan: "Spray the Finns (Huttunen/Lukka) with champange!"

[dimviii]

hahahaha

Evans 10/10
Neuville 3/10

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/colin-clarks-monza-rally-driver-ratings/

[EstWRC]

Just finished reading it

What a joke of a ratings

The guy has been smoking some good shit lately.

[dimviii]

really?


Where was long-term team leader Thierry Neuville? Out of the rally after needlessly clipping a chicane and then drowning his engine as a result of the reduced speed he had to go at.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/what-we-learned-from-2020-monza-rally/

[denkimi]

really?


Where was long-term team leader Thierry Neuville? Out of the rally after needlessly clipping a chicane and then drowning his engine as a result of the reduced speed he had to go at.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/what-we-learned-from-2020-monza-rally/
Giving evans 10/10 when all he had to do is not crash.
Neuville had to push to get any chance, evans just had to make it to the finish but couldn't do that.

So its just nonsense, but knowing where it comes from it's no surprise.

[Gregor-y]

hahahaha

Evans 10/10

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/colin-clarks-monza-rally-driver-ratings/

Got to keep Britain together somehow...

[mknight]

Well I found the ratings of all Toyota drivers except Ogier kinda funny.

Rovanpera 8/10 for basically just finishing the rally as last WRC and being faster than Veiby/Greensmith? 5-6 max imo.

Katsuta 8/10 for crashing out on first stage after a double-error? Again around 6 max.

Similarly Veiby gets 4/10 for never being ahead of a Rally2 car trough 7 stages before making two mistakes?

And again there is the issue where he gives ratings to drivers that have the var fail on them after one stage (Suninen in this case, Lappi in Sardinia).

[BigWorm]

hahahaha

Evans 10/10
Neuville 3/10

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/colin-clarks-monza-rally-driver-ratings/

Hard to take it seriously, one driver he's being objective and the next he's rating by heart. This applies to most ratings this season.

[T16]

I've said it for ages.. Colin Clarke just doesn't know what he's talking about.

[focus206]

really?


Where was long-term team leader Thierry Neuville? Out of the rally after needlessly clipping a chicane and then drowning his engine as a result of the reduced speed he had to go at.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/what-we-learned-from-2020-monza-rally/
The two Dirtfish articles you posted is why I still don't really trust them, as they seem to act as WRC hype boys and include the usual Colin Clark's biased articles with super praise of everything British and Ogier, in comparison to Neuville and Tanak.

[seb_sh]

In Loeb era you didn't see specialists mostly because you could only enter 2 cars that could score points, not 2 out of 3, this was also true for first few years with Ogier/VW if you recall.

I don't think there is a shortage of specialists, Østberg in Citroen 2018 was pretty much working as a specialist and it worked on fast gravel, Breen is essentially a specialist at this point too (based on his run at Citroen in 2017-18).

You're right, I forgot about that, indeed the 2 car rule contributed a lot to limiting specialists over time. On the other hand when that rule came in there were very few teams were rotating drivers. So I think it's a mix of that rule and "complete" drivers that were faster than event specialists even with road order advantage. Which specialist could beat Gronholm/Hirvonen/Latvala in their prime and they struggled against Loeb... so hard to find any realistic contenders at that point. And not to mention on tarmac, Citroen at one point had the 2 best tarmac drivers as their full time drivers.

In any case nowadays it seems there is a wider spread of talent and some drivers who benefit from road order can make the difference. Sordo for example has always missed the last few % of speed and consistency but if he gets good road order and a bit of luck it pushes the balance in his favour.

If we look at who does not have a contract next year you could probably make a nice 3rd car mix of 3-4 drivers that would benefit from road order advantage and fit certain rallies. Thinking of Sordo, Breen, Lappi, Mikkelsen, Paddon. Say you put Sordo on Monte, Croatia, Sardinia, Spain and Japan, then Breen in Sweden, Estonia, GB, then Lappi in Portugal and Finland, and Mikkelsen or Paddon in Kenya and Chile you have a good mix and are playing the road order game to the max. Obviously just pulled this out of you know where but it's interesting that it could be done.

[seb_sh]

Well I found the ratings of all Toyota drivers except Ogier kinda funny.

Rovanpera 8/10 for basically just finishing the rally as last WRC and being faster than Veiby/Greensmith? 5-6 max imo.

Katsuta 8/10 for crashing out on first stage after a double-error? Again around 6 max.

Similarly Veiby gets 4/10 for never being ahead of a Rally2 car trough 7 stages before making two mistakes?

And again there is the issue where he gives ratings to drivers that have the var fail on them after one stage (Suninen in this case, Lappi in Sardinia).

yeah, I think Colin is a great reported but a shitty analyst. He gave Evans a 10 essentially because he's a nice guy and he felt sorry for him and thrashed Thierry for making mistakes. Here's what he said about Thierry by i replace Thierry with Elfyn:



Elfyn had a job to do this week and he failed to do it. His mistake early on in the event put massive pressure on his team-mates to bring home the result that ultimately delivered the manufacturers title to Hyundai. There will be no one more disappointed than Elfyn I’m sure but there won’t be room for too many more mistakes like this one in the future. Evans will be a title challenger in 2021 again for sure, but the competition is very much hotting up.
3/10 ... just saying ...

Then he gave Sunninen a 4 because his engine failed after 1 stage...


As a side note about Evans i'm a bit bothered about the british bias of the commentators, often i've switched to no commentary (thank god for that option). If i'm honest they keep putting Evans in the same group as Ogier, Tanak and Neuville but I disagree. All his wins and even this title challenge have come under exceptional circumstances. If he had won he had deserved it, he got the points fair and square but i think he's more of a dark horse that is close enough to pick up the pieces when the others hit trouble. just my 2c

[cali]

Just finished reading it

What a joke of a ratings

The guy has been smoking some good shit lately.Not just lately. I've been talking about this for years. He is an entertainer not an rallying-insider-specialist. Kinda of a joke really with his analyses

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[T16]

Not just lately. I've been talking about this for years. He is an entertainer not an rallying-insider-specialist. Kinda of a joke really with his analyses

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

100% agree. I gave him 'another chance' and watched his Rally Finland testing report (I mean - does he realise hoy lucky he is to get flown over to watch a bloody test?!) and he just talked about a band he could hear all night from his balcony.
He's a complete fraud.

[cali]

Just a follow-up on this Colin Clark topic.

https://twitter.com/DirtFishRally/status/1335999416646463502?s=19

He actually believes giving some biased ratings is really justified. Not gonna read his crap again

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[mknight]

You know after end of 2017 season, C. Clark went public saying that Evans will fight for title in 2018 no matter what car he drives.

What followed was probably Evans worst season, completely outclassed by Ogier in same car with one single good performance in Catalunya. There was wide speculation here and elsewhere that he won't start 2019 season with MSport, but he did (probably due to lack of better alternatives at the time).

As people would remember in 2019 Evans did two very good rallies (Corsica and GB) and got a Toyota seat for this year.

Outtakes
- C. Clark is not objective when it comes to UK drivers (interestingly he was actually quite objective when talking about Meeke, but for some reason Evans, Greensmith and Breen are different (in about that order))
- Tiny margins can mean success or disappearance (what if MSport dropped Evans for 2019?)

[rallyfiend]

Colin Clark has never known what he's talking about.

He doesn't follow the actual rally enough - never analyses anything.

He just talks in cliche's and buzzwords.

And from the looks of his videos some crappy media consultant has told him to wave his hands around in dramatic gestures in order to 'draw the audience in' or some other nonsense.

He's a complete fraud.

[Franky]

Outtakes
- C. Clark is not objective when it comes to UK drivers (interestingly he was actually quite objective when talking about Meeke, but for some reason Evans, Greensmith and Breen are different (in about that order))

I'd go even so far to say that besides Clark painting pictures with words, nearly the entire WRC All Live commentating team is not objective.

[meh]

Like someone already wrote earlier, Colin is entertainer. During radio times I enjoyed his enthusiastic coverage at stage ends, he made radio a live. Now, the radio time is over and he has chosen to be analyst or journalist. And we all know how it is going.

On the other hand, he is sharing own opinions, like those driver ratings. His opinions and feelings. With Evans 10/10 he showed, that his "rating framework" does not match with lot of other rally fans, including me, and those rating are not really pragmatic. But this is how I take it - his ratings are just one person opinions, not THE TRUTH.

In short - take it easy :)

[wyler]

Like someone already wrote earlier, Colin is entertainer. During radio times I enjoyed his enthusiastic coverage at stage ends, he made radio a live. Now, the radio time is over and he has chosen to be analyst or journalist. And we all know how it is going.

On the other hand, he is sharing own opinions, like those driver ratings. His opinions and feelings. With Evans 10/10 he showed, that his "rating framework" does not match with lot of other rally fans, including me, and those rating are not really pragmatic. But this is how I take it - his ratings are just one person opinions, not THE TRUTH.

In short - take it easy :)

agree, but in that case, I really miss a "real" journalist...with dirtfish i was hoping for a raise in quality, compared to wrc.com

[meh]

Dirtfish have nice gap to fill - official channel need to provide neutral facts but they can provide opinions, they can publish rumors, they can make interviews the way like they want and provide content which is not doable by wrc.com.

[Sulland]

Just a question;
Is it allowed during weather like we had at Monza to bring 4 tyres in the car? So they could have more possibilities to make the car survive, and get to the finish of stages.
I guess it is room in the back to do this, and could help when weather suddely change, and temp drops under 0. Just to avoid to have to cancel stages.

[AnttiL]

Just a question;
Is it allowed during weather like we had at Monza to bring 4 tyres in the car? So they could have more possibilities to make the car survive, and get to the finish of stages.
I guess it is room in the back to do this, and could help when weather suddely change, and temp drops under 0. Just to avoid to have to cancel stages.

Only two spares is allowed and I don't think they could fit more

[AnttiL]

Like someone already wrote earlier, Colin is entertainer.

Well said. It's just easy forget when he's in the company of David Evans who can think more than once before writing or opening his mouth.

Colin is also very stubborn, he is very bad at taking any sort of criticism. He's probably too used to radio where you couldn't interact or correct erroneous facts.

[mknight]

In the long interview (in Norwegian https://open.spotify.com/episode/0cSkrh5pjqQJl8wvNbObvs?si=TiquNVLQSjyNznBdzTtK5g ) with Østberg/Eriksen:

- says that the Michelin rain tire is not so good when it's too much water/dirt and the snow tire is only good on snow, while he says Pirelli snow tire is much more universal (Formaux seemed to do ok with wet tires?)
- similarly he claims that the Michelins are better when driving on "clean" tarmac stages

- he says he was sitting behind the wheel before starting stages watching alllive and making icenotes based on what was on the screen (not surprising)

- points out that WRC3 crews usually have a road position advantage (applies to gravel) and also that R5s outside of WRC2/3 have free tire limits (allocations) and hopes that it will be somehow unified for all R5s but doesn't think it will happen soon


- says the C3 R5 now needs specific setup and lots of parts changed for each rally and that there are still some events that they don't have good setup for. The updated (Rally2) one that is coming now should be more allround and easily adaptable to all rallies in addition it should have more power and downforce.
- he is working on an (fully) electric rally car (with Citroen) and might run it on some local event(s) in 2021.

- they talk how K. Rovanpera is using in-ear headphones for better intercom sound and Østberg says he used them too in DS3 WRC which was very noisy inside

[Mirek]

- he is working on an (fully) electric rally car (with Citroen) and might run it on some local event(s) in 2021.

Citroën version of the already known electric Corsa?

[SubaruNorway]

Citroën version of the already known electric Corsa?

The one they used in Höljes wasn't It, which Mads was supposed to drive, based on an R5

[Sulland]

In the same interview in the norwegian podcast "Lyktepodden" (Lightpod) Østberg also said that on the stages where weather was changing to more winterish roads, that he was sitting rewriting notes via all live, and Eriksen changing wheels around in between stages. Smart!

[Hartusvuori]

Dirtfish have nice gap to fill - official channel need to provide neutral facts but they can provide opinions, they can publish rumors, they can make interviews the way like they want and provide content which is not doable by wrc.com.

Do note that DirtFish do make commercial co-operation with several drivers and events, in other words those drivers and events pay DirtFish to produce and publish content about them. It can create a bit of a weird situation when they co-operate with one but not with the other and especially if there is something negative to report about. DirtFish is OK as long as you know how to read them. The worst thing DirtFish did was pretty killing all rallying content from Autosport - and I'm silly enough to believe Autosport works or worked more independently.

The job of wrc.com is just to create content to support the championship. It's fully open commercial operation. It still could be better, way better, but in a way, at least myself, I don't expect anything from them.

[wyler]

The job of wrc.com is just to create content to support the championship. It's fully open commercial operation. It still could be better, way better, but in a way, at least myself, I don't expect anything from them.

I still think the best way to support something is to have good journalism

[Sulland]

In my opinion, a rally like Monza could be on the calendar.

But you need at least two real stages outside the track every day. They have naturally very good roads in the mountains, and I guess they can find a road or three closer to the track as well.
But with more planning they can make a great rally.

[AnttiL]

I agree, just do more of the mountain stages and maybe one circuit stage every day at most.

For this pandemic era it was acceptable to do it like this on a quick notice.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ogier - Monza snow could make me champion:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/ogier-monza-snow-could-make-me-champion/

Looking back, this was an amazing call by Ogier and reported by Dirtfish.

Not only was he spot-on re the impact of the snow on the rally. But also how his words evidently got into Evans' mind.

This made him think he was going too slowly on SS11 compared to Ogier and brough about the Championship-deciding crash.

Great driver, great psychologist.

[AndyRAC]

Great driver, great psychologist.

Good driver - yes. But his so called 'mind games' are frankly amateur when compared to those in other sports. Why anybody would fall for them is beyond belief. It honestly makes me laugh when commentators say he's this genius regarding psyching the other drivers out. They need to get out more - and watch some other sport.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It doesnt take much in rallying as driver's generally have little experience of 'mind-games'. Just planting a little seed of doubt can be enough.

[T16]

Good driver - yes. But his so called 'mind games' are frankly amateur when compared to those in other sports. Why anybody would fall for them is beyond belief. It honestly makes me laugh when commentators say he's this genius regarding psyching the other drivers out. They need to get out more - and watch some other sport.

Absolutely no idea how Eddie thinks it was mind games when Ogier would have gone off, if it wasn't for Evans slowing him down?
If it wasn't for Evans, there would have been two Toyotas in the ditch - some mind games.

[T16]

It doesnt take much in rallying as driver's generally have little experience of 'mind-games'. Just planting a little seed of doubt can be enough.

Literally making shit up as you go along. Have you a single ounce of evidence to back any of this up?

[mknight]

Absolutely no idea how Eddie thinks it was mind games when Ogier would have gone off, if it wasn't for Evans slowing him down?
If it wasn't for Evans, there would have been two Toyotas in the ditch - some mind games.

It was by no means inevitable to go off there...for anyone.

Tanak drove just before Evans and slowed down immediately at the start of new tarmac and took a safe line though the corner (inside, partly without snow).

Evans had change of tarmac and "shiny" in notes , yet didn't slow down much and went left to brake on snow. So at least two judgement errors there.

Ogier was warned already 2 corners before at start of the new tarmac. So what would have happened to him is pure speculation. Yes he did understeer a bit on the snow in the corner, but was never even past the mid-line, so the allive panic that he is "nearly" going off was pretty unnecessary.

[T16]

It was by no means inevitable to go off there...for anyone.

Tanak drove just before Evans and slowed down immediately at the start of new tarmac and took a safe line though the corner (inside, partly without snow).

Evans had change of tarmac and "shiny" in notes , yet didn't slow down much and went left to brake on snow. So at least two judgement errors there.

Ogier was warned already 2 corners before at start of the new tarmac. So what would have happened to him is pure speculation. Yes he did understeer a bit on the snow in the corner, but was never even past the mid-line, so the allive panic that he is "nearly" going off was pretty unnecessary.

Ok - of course I can’t say for sure, but he did reduce his pace a bit, after sliding already. I’m pretty sure he would have done.
Didn’t he even say so himself? Or was that a polite response to being pushed on the matter?
Evans was leading the championship after being team mate to Ogier for 2 years. I’m pretty sure he knows how to deal with anything Ogier chucks at him.

[meh]

Evans made a mistake under pressure. His decision to push where it was not necessary, his fault. Were Ogier's comments tiny part of that pressure, we can endlessly speculate and never will find out.

[Franky]

Literally making shit up as you go along. Have you a single ounce of evidence to back any of this up?

T16, mind games ;)