Rally 3 class

[Alpine-110]

Who will be first on the market with a new rally 3 car?
A R2 with 4 wheel drive?

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/146456/plan-to-simplify-wrc-career-ladder-stepped-up

[Sulland]

In some countries this class will become a factor between R2 and R5 or R4 if it takes off.

In championships that are mostly run on gravel or snow, this will be a good learning 4wd class for youngsters.

[Tom206wrc]

No thread for the Rally 4 class(class of the Fiesta and 208 R2T) :confused:

[Sulland]

Oh yea
https://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?30221-R2-Cars

[Tom206wrc]

OK thanks Sulland ;)

[Sulland]

Is something said from FIA about regulations for the 4wd in this class?
Will it be a kit, as in R4 or will it be free for tuners to make?

[PLuto]

Is something said from FIA about regulations for the 4wd in this class?
Will it be a kit, as in R4 or will it be free for tuners to make?

No, it will be similar concept like R5 or R2 - cars made and homologated by manufacturers.

[pantealex]

No, it will be similar concept like R5 or R2 - cars made and homologated by manufacturers.

Rally2 and Rally4 :)

[Sulland]

No, it will be similar concept like R5 or R2 - cars made and homologated by manufacturers.

Tragic. Some classes could be left to the rest of motorsport industry to make parts for. This class will most likely be for parts of the world where gravel/snow is predominant, sweden and finland have many smart tuners that could contribute in this class, mostly for young and coming drivers.

[Mirek]

Tragic. Some classes could be left to the rest of motorsport industry to make parts for. This class will most likely be for parts of the world where gravel/snow is predominant, sweden and finland have many smart tuners that could contribute in this class, mostly for young and coming drivers.

I think You don't understand the concept. The idea of R5 was to use as many standard production parts as possible no matter the manufacturer and to keep the cost of the car and its spare parts basically frozen for all the time. There is even higher number of such stock parts in the Rally3 concept (thanks to lower performance). This concept absolutely works in R5 and there is a good reason to expect it will work with Rally3 as well.

[RS]

Rally2 and Rally4 :)

So what are they going to call the restart-after-you've-retired thing now?

[pantealex]

so what are they going to call the restart-after-you've-retired thing now?

r1 - r5 ;)

[Franky]

So what are they going to call the restart-after-you've-retired thing now?

"Game over. Try Again"

[Sulland]

I think You don't understand the concept. The idea of R5 was to use as many standard production parts as possible no matter the manufacturer and to keep the cost of the car and its spare parts basically frozen for all the time. There is even higher number of such stock parts in the Rally3 concept (thanks to lower performance). This concept absolutely works in R5 and there is a good reason to expect it will work with Rally3 as well.

"Stupid is as stupid does"

Well, I understand, but I do not agree.
FIA is more and more giving projects to one company as with R4, or to the OEMs. By doing it this way none of the tunerfirms get anything out of newer rallycars. They just have to concentrate on the older national classes.

Possibility is of course that the OE Manufacturers could hire in a firm to make the 4wd system for their R2 car, but in 99% of the cases they will build it inhouse.

The saf thing is that the engeneering capability inside the independant motorsport companies slowley die, and with them many good ideas never be seen.
Like these firms
http://www.tractive.se/Technology
https://www.sadev-tm.com/en/products/4-wd-products/http://www.sellholm.se/en/produkter/transmissionv%C3%A4xell%C3%A5dor
https://www.xtrac.com/sectors/motorsport/rally-offroad/
Xtrack started up with Martin Schanche in the mis 80s, and look where they are today!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xtrac_Limited

Many says competition is healthy, and with a max price and a strict rulebook, they could compete.

[Mirek]

What you say is not true. Sorry.

[Rally Power]

Sulland is right in one aspect: current rules (basically since Gr.R introduction) are totally directed to manus official tuners. Official tuners will always be the reference in the sport but besides being more competitive the cars they built are also more expensive, making them unaffordable for many drivers/teams. Addicionally, the number of homologated cars (with R5 exception) is decreasing at an alarming rate, with the risk of most entry lists becoming boring monotype events. More balanced tech rules, allowing a further participation of private tuners, would be very welcomed.

[Sulland]

What you say is not true. Sorry.

What is not true?

[Mirek]

What is not true?

It's not true that private tuners have nothing out of modern rally cars. There are plenty of companies making a lot of money out of the new cars. It's also not true that their engineering skills are disappearing. Absolutely not. Plenty of private companies do very hi-tech work with the new cars. When I speak strictly for Czechia and even for the most expnesive R5 cars most of the Fabias and Fiestas R5 here have engine from Vančík company, not from Oreca or M-Sport (even big teams like SRT, BRR or TGS use these privately-built engines). Many teams develop their own suspension (damper internals are free and Czech roads are very specific - for example standard M-Sport asphalt dampers usually don't work here). Pech's team even managed to get their own Mini RRC gearing homologated by Prodrive few years a go.

That you buy homologated stuff doesn't mean the work is done and there is nothing to improve. Quite the opposite, even the homologated car is just a base for further (albeit limited) development but the limits is what keeps the cost from spiralling sky high.

[pantealex]

Rally3 is coming 2021 earliest...

[Rally Power]

It's not true that private tuners have nothing out of modern rally cars. There are plenty of companies making a lot of money out of the new cars. It's also not true that their engineering skills are disappearing. Absolutely not. Plenty of private companies do very hi-tech work with the new cars. When I speak strictly for Czechia and even for the most expnesive R5 cars most of the Fabias and Fiestas R5 here have engine from Vančík company, not from Oreca or M-Sport (even big teams like SRT, BRR or TGS use these privately-built engines). Many teams develop their own suspension (damper internals are free and Czech roads are very specific - for example standard M-Sport asphalt dampers usually don't work here). Pech's team even managed to get their own Mini RRC gearing homologated by Prodrive few years a go.

That you buy homologated stuff doesn't mean the work is done and there is nothing to improve. Quite the opposite, even the homologated car is just a base for further (albeit limited) development but the limits is what keeps the cost from spiralling sky high.

No matter the way you look at it, the truth is that in Gr.N/A days you had a wide diversity of cars and you were able to prepare them in different spec levels, according to your budget; with Gr.R you’re limited to a few cars only available in manus specs and prices*, making harder for those with lower budgets to buy them. That’s crystal clear.

*ok, a few tuners can slightly improve manus specs, making their prices even more expensive…hurrah!

[Mirek]

Gr.A/gr.N is dead and already burried by a thick dust. It's nothing but history. Get used to that finally and look what can be done now in the current world.

[Rally Power]

Gr.A/gr.N is dead and already burried by a thick dust. It's nothing but history. Get used to that finally and look what can be done now in the current world.

You’re free to find me nostalgic, but I’m not; I’m concerned about the sport future and pissed to see that the FIA doesn’t care to get more liberal homologation rules to allow private tuners providing rally cars for a fraction of the price of those made by the manus monopoly.

Are you satisfied with having only 2 R1 cars and 2 R2’s homologated in 3 years? How many new R5 homologations are expected next year? And WRC’s in 2022? Let’s face it: without a larger diversity of cars and brands the sport can’t progress and private tuners are vital to bring that diversity back.

[Franky]

Why do you think "private tuners" will be able to produce parts for less than a manufacturer, who does it on a larger scale?

[pantealex]

Many of you are forgetting safety.
Home-built cars just can´t be builded cheaply without latest safety equipment.

[Mirek]

For me the ball related to the small classes is on the national ASN side. If I say it cynically why shall FIA care about cars which are basically irrelevant for FIA championships? It doesn't make sense to pretend it's not like that. Naturally they don't put much emphasis on something which doesn't compete in FIA championships anyway and which is not interesting for the manufacturers at the same time.

In most of the countries you can build small cars on local private basis according to the ASN rules. The reason why there is so few R1 cars available is IMHO in the fact that they aren't actually needed. Nobody competes with these small cars internationally.

[Rally Power]

Many of you are forgetting safety.
Home-built cars just can´t be builded cheaply without latest safety equipment.

Come on pantealex, we’re not talking about home made cars; we’re talking about proper rally cars made under FIA standards by independent tuners, just like Maxi Rally in Argentina, N5 in Spain or AP4 in Australia and New Zealand.

Instead of promoting R4 as a single supplier kit, there was room to make a global R4 regulation, allowing a proper competition between tuners around the world. The same for a 2wd category. Besides, most ASN’s don’t have tech expertise to regulate rally categories and without a global rule it’ll also be harder for local tuners to get a proper scale for starting their projects.

The rally market should work freely, as any other market; without a wider diversity at the base we can’t have a strong pinnacle; restraining the whole sport to a bunch of manus is hurting Rally.

[Sulland]

According to FIA rally boss, saying to MN that 3 manufacturers ara activly working on the concept, and 3 more are studying the tech draft.
he hopes minimum two cartypes ready for 2021, maybe more.

Matton also agrees that the R4/R2 Kit class is too closely prized vs R5. They are looking to getting an alternativ kit maker in addition to Oreca, to get the price down.

[Rally Power]

According to FIA rally boss, saying to MN that 3 manufacturers ara activly working on the concept, and 3 more are studying the tech draft. he hopes minimum two cartypes ready for 2021, maybe more.

Not hard to guess: Ford, Peugeot and Renault (the last one was rumoured even before the Rally5 Clio launch).


Matton also agrees that the R4/R2 Kit class is too closely prized vs R5. They are looking to getting an alternativ kit maker in addition to Oreca, to get the price down.

Launching R4 trough a single supplier was a terrible idea and having just one more won't probably be enough to fix it. The FIA should make a universal rule, based on R4 kit specs, opening the class to all sort of private tuners.

[Damian Baldi]

The R3 class overlaps with the R4. I don't know what the FIA plans was, but it doesn't look good. The R4 is too expensive, too close to the R5 in performance, and puts the Maxy Rally, N5 and AP4 out of competition. The idea to have an unique provider in Europe to the entire world is plain wrong just because not all the world is the same, and it goes directly against the local teams/tuners.

The R3 should be different than the R4 idea. It should be a set of rules, with maybe some common components and that's all, then the teams and tuners should make the rest. The real need today is to fil the gap between FWD cars and the MR, N5, AP4, R4 car.

I think FIA should hear the teams and drivers on the lower categories, because what they are looking for now is a 4WD car cheaper and slower than the R4, MR, N5 or AP5.

[Sulland]

Important to keep to the maxprize of €100,000.

So if a rally4 car will cost € 60-65 000, then they have 30-35 k to build tunnel and 4wd system.

Should be possible.

[Sulland]

The FIA Rally Department used last week’s World Motor Sport Council meeting to provide further details on Rally3, which is set to go on stream in 2021.

Essentially a Rally4 (formerly R2) car with four-wheel drive, Rally3 is already attracting interest from regions around the world as a replacement for the Group N category, that can appeal to both gentlemen drivers and their career-focused counterparts stepping up from 2WD machinery.

Key facts:


Manufacturers convert bodyshell from 2WD to 4WD configuration
Common front and rear parts (wishbones, dampers, brake calipers, etc) to cut costs
Car width the same as standard production car (not widened as in Rally2)
Standard bodywork (bumpers and fenders can be bought from local car dealerships)
Fuel tank simple in shape to reduce costs, positioned higher in car for simple design
One gearbox ratio set only, two differential ramp angles to lessen engineering input
Homologated from 1 January, 2021


As approved by the World Council on Friday, all cars will have the same level of performance, with the same weight of 1,180kg and same power of 210 hp, balanced by a turbocharger retrictor.
A price cap of €100,000 for the rally has been set in the homologation regulations.

Oman seminar demonstrates enthusiasm for Rally3

Interest in Rally3 at regional level was perfectly demonstrated by a recent seminar in Oman where Jérôme Roussel delivered a presentation on the new-for-2021 category.

The FIA Regional Rally Category Manager welcomed the enthusiastic response to Rally3: “There was very big interest, notably from Saudi Arabia and Qatar,” he said. “They understood the product is cost-effective, the maintenance is easy and you don’t need to call for the engineer every time you run the car. They want to support the new generation of drivers and the product is really good for this.”


This looks like a winner, and is turning out to be what they tried with R4 Kit, but missed on the price.
By having 200 hp, and not more the drivers can learn to master 4wd, and by that be more ready for Rally2 and Rally1!

[Damian Baldi]

That's exactly the same target than Maxi Rally Light class. The price of this new Rally3 seems as high as a R4 but with less performance (maybe it uses part of that development). The MR Light class uses the same components and engine as the MR (to avoid the need of new parts), but it have a 32mm restrictor. The other change on the Maxi Rally Light class is that it allows the use of an H gearbox instead a secuential to reduce costs (because in the case of Argentina, H gearbox is build locally, and the sencuential gearbox have to be imported and pay taxes). This should be mandatory or not to everybody to keep the parity.

Here is a video o Patricia Pita, showing her VW Maxi Rally Light with a H gearbox shifter and the turbo engine with only 215HP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqYLKxeV9YQ

[Damian Baldi]

Maybe taking the N5 cars from RMC could be a fast and cheapest option for Rally3. Why? Because RMC have already (as in the case of the MR) all the bodywork parts, suspension, gearbox etc etc. They are selling N5 cars on Spain, Belgium and even Finland.

FIA should look what drivers and teams are doing, instead to try to impose their ideas.

[Tarmop]

I think that a factory-built rallycar is more reliable and has more buyers in worldwide championships. Also if you read, runnign costs will be quite a lot lower than the suggested/compared classes. For example, bodywork in this class is stock: buy OEM parts from a dealer or b-parts....a big save in running costs (especially when having an accident)

[TheFlyingTuga]

And N5 cars are not cheap either, I heard prices for a competitive car around 150k, and let's be honest, for that price you can get a second hand R5 car

[Sulland]

Who will get a R3 first on the market?
Looking back, My money is on MSport.

They sold a shitload of R5s getting them first on the market in 2013.

[Damian Baldi]

And N5 cars are not cheap either, I heard prices for a competitive car around 150k, and let's be honest, for that price you can get a second hand R5 car

But the idea is to have a car to jump from FWD to 4WD. About the price of the car, it's always the same discussion about starting price versus operational price. What I thought about the N5 as a base, is to reduce the time to get the cars ready, and if the N5 have good sales the price of the bodyparts could become cheaper. Another good thing about it, it's that the car could jump into the next competition level very easy rising the engine power throught the restrictor without the need to change the car. The cars are there available now to start a new season next year.

Look at the R4 examples, it started 3 or 4 years ago and there are very few models, and you can't use a car that Oreca didn't homologate it.

[Mirek]

That's exactly the same target than Maxi Rally Light class. The price of this new Rally3 seems as high as a R4 but with less performance (maybe it uses part of that development). The MR Light class uses the same components and engine as the MR (to avoid the need of new parts), but it have a 32mm restrictor. The other change on the Maxi Rally Light class is that it allows the use of an H gearbox instead a secuential to reduce costs (because in the case of Argentina, H gearbox is build locally, and the sencuential gearbox have to be imported and pay taxes). This should be mandatory or not to everybody to keep the parity.

Here is a video o Patricia Pita, showing her VW Maxi Rally Light with a H gearbox shifter and the turbo engine with only 215HP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqYLKxeV9YQ

No, it's not in a comparable price class. Competitive N5 or Maxi rally cars are more expensive both to buy and to run.

[Mirek]

But the idea is to have a car to jump from FWD to 4WD. About the price of the car, it's always the same discussion about starting price versus operational price. What I thought about the N5 as a base, is to reduce the time to get the cars ready, and if the N5 have good sales the price of the bodyparts could become cheaper. Another good thing about it, it's that the car could jump into the next competition level very easy rising the engine power throught the restrictor without the need to change the car. The cars are there available now to start a new season next year.

The Maxi rally or N5 rules don't contain enough tools to keep their cost once the manufacturers get involved and they are more expensive already now. The Rally 3 rules are based on the same principle which works well in R5 to keep the cost on the same level for a long period of time. It's not a sort of uptuned R2. In performance yes, in the way the rules are written not. Also the rules are written so that they attract manufacturers which is also very important for creating a real ladder.


Look at the R4 examples, it started 3 or 4 years ago and there are very few models, and you can't use a car that Oreca didn't homologate it.

R5 was placed too close to the R5 both in performance and the price. Since the beginning it was predicted that it has to fail (at least in Europe).

[Damian Baldi]

Well, if the idea is to get a rally3 "ready to race" car, to buy the cars from the manufacturers as in the case of the R5 is ok. I thought that all about rally3 was about keep the small teams working and the drivers/owners.

[pantealex]

Look at the R4 examples, it started 3 or 4 years ago and there are very few models, and you can't use a car that Oreca didn't homologate it.

Oreca didn´t homologate any bodywork for Rally2+Kit, only things under the bodywork. So you can use what car brand/model you want.

Biggest problem of Rally2+Kit is price, people are still driving with Impreza/Lancer because of that.

With some brands you could self built Rally4 (R2) car, I expect that similar will happen with Rally3, you don´t have to buy "ready to drive" car.

[Sulland]

To be able to compare apples and apples, it would be useful to know the aproximate 2020 prices in Euro for:

N5: ?
Maxi Rally: ?
AP4: ?

Price of R5: Aprox 240 000 Euro
Price of R4: Aprox 180 000 Euro
Price of R3 4wd: 100 000 Euro

Thinking of new car ready to rally, one setup, asphalt or Gravel.

[Rally Power]

FIA price cap is never the final one. R5 price cap was €180k and they’re sold around €250k; it would'nt be a surprise having Rally3 cars costing over €100k.

[Mirek]

FIA price cap is never the final one. R5 price cap was €180k and they’re sold around €250k; it would'nt be a surprise having Rally3 cars costing over €100k.

If I am not mistaken the price cap for R5 and Rally3 is defined for different level of the car finish. I think that for example the seats and the safety equipment is not part of the cap in R5 but it is part of it in Rally3 etc.

[Andre Oliveira]

Maybe?

https://scontent.flis8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/90130087_3312510455445025_7591363139585703936_o.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_sid=ca434c&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=2M2aueBRFjgAX-JKBRk&_nc_ht=scontent.flis8-1.fna&_nc_tp=14&oh=70bbbd5f4bcddfd2c4ecbf1413591a31&oe=5E95098F

[Sulland]

It was the new Rally4 car, that will be the basis for their Rally3!

[PLuto]

It is too early for presentation of Rally3 car. But currently 3 manufacturers are working on it...

[Sulland]

My guess is Peugeot, Renault and Ford.

[scn]

Back in 1993 I started rallying with a car that I bought with the equivalent of 2600 euros and it was fully according to FIA regulations. This cannot be done with all these extremely expensive R cars that have to be only "manufacturer made".
Also, more important than anything else, drivers like Sebastien Loeb will never get into rallying with the present R regulations. Seb, not being rich at all, started with a cheap Peugeot 106 XSi and immediately got into serious competition with it. If some other Seb wants to start these days, he will never find a way. The "manufacturer made" R cars are extremely expensive for the average young person. For this reason it is necessary that at least one category is left out of this "manufacturer made". But FIA doesn't seem to care.

[HKSjbg]

What are you on about? You don’t have to start rallying in an up to date R class car. Mainly because you wouldn’t want to waste all that money on something you may well crash.

There is nothing about FIA homologated R-class cars that prevents people from starting their rallying competition off (avoiding the the word ‘career’ as that doesn’t really happen until a manufacturer pays you to drive i.e. professionally) in something older and cheaper. The real world isn’t a computer game where your ‘first rally’ is actually a World Rally round in the bottom class of WRC.

[skarderud]

To start rallying you need money, to do some National rallies in a cheap car not that mutch, but if you want to get somewhere after you showed potential in a cheap car, you need a R2, and money. To get sponsors you need a car that companies want theire stickers on, noone want that on a old Corsa or a 240 in the far back, maybe if they know you :)
So, quite fast you need an R2, both R1 and R2, pluss this 4wd R2 class, should be possibly been built home with some mandatory parts and some free parts, ofcours with a FIA rollcage from some profesionell builder.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[scn]

What are you on about? You don’t have to start rallying in an up to date R class car. Mainly because you wouldn’t want to waste all that money on something you may well crash.

There is nothing about FIA homologated R-class cars that prevents people from starting their rallying competition off (avoiding the the word ‘career’ as that doesn’t really happen until a manufacturer pays you to drive i.e. professionally) in something older and cheaper. The real world isn’t a computer game where your ‘first rally’ is actually a World Rally round in the bottom class of WRC.

What I am saying is that there should be a lower cost class, in which cars do not have to be "manufacturer made" as present R1 (which is too slow) or R2. Usually older cars are not in categories with much competition, so young drivers do not have the opportunity to improve and show what they can do, with very few exceptions that have rich daddies. The good old cheap N1 and N2, or cheap cups like 106, 206 and Yaris were the best school for young drivers. Both Sebs started in such cheap categories. This is what I mean.
Perhaps a proposal would be to leave R1 free to all tuners and make this the truly cheap category. Maybe with some cheap alterations on its technical regulations for more speed (e.g. a wilder camshaft is the cheapest way to get power). The rest of Rs are enough for manufacturers. They can leave one R out of their control.

P.S. My rally car was built in 1998, it is wonderful to drive and I do not intend to change it. There is nothing wrong with old cars, except of what I mentioned just before.

[PLuto]

It is nice idea, but problem is with normal cars now. There is almost no car in serial production which should be easily used in rallysport...

[Sulland]

Many countries have made cheap cup-cars up through history. In Norway we started with Opel Corsa A, and ended up with Impreza. Many have started their hobby and some their international carreer in cups.

Still there are several going on in europe, but as with most things, they have become more expensive as anything else.
Maybe a Dacia Sandero cup could be an option? :-)

[skarderud]

Every nation needs a cheap cup as a starter for young talents, and some old farts.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[Sulland]

https://www.m-sport.co.uk/single-post/2020/08/05/M-SPORT-LAUNCH-NEW-CUSTOMER-SUPPORT-ESHOP


Designers at Dovenby Hall are working on a new Ford Fiesta Rally1 scheduled for 2022, and in Krakow the team are engaged with the development of a new Ford Fiesta Rally3 designed to bridge the gap between two- and four-wheel-drive competition in 2021.

So there we have the first news I have seen that work on the new Rally3 class have started.
Any other news on other manu or tuners have started the engineering on a Rally3 car?

[PLuto]

So there we have the first news I have seen that work on the new Rally3 class have started.
Any other news on other manu or tuners have started the engineering on a Rally3 car?

There are three confirmed manufacturers working on rally3 car and one was thinking about it. This is info from the time when this new class was introduced to the regulations.

[Rally Power]

There are three confirmed manufacturers working on rally3 car and one was thinking about it. This is info from the time when this new class was introduced to the regulations.

Who's the 4th? From what I've heard the 3 are those with Rally 4 (or 5) cars: Ford, Peugeot and Renault; apparently Renault may take a while as their main aim is to get the Clio Rally 4 car ready for 2021.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfTQJ-PXkAEQzs1?format=jpg&name=900x900

https://autosprint.corrieredellosport.it/news/rally/mondiale/2020/08/13-3267734/wrc_junior_2021_primi_test_per_la_ford_fiesta_r2/

[Sulland]

Has anything leaked out on the 4wd system chosen for the Fiesta, or has Fia said anything on tech regs for that system?

[Andre Oliveira]

https://www.facebook.com/FrancescoMorittuImagiInAction/photos/a.2673267139551701/2673267949551620/?type=3

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfiGdTOXsAAOa7X?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfiGdTOWsAAtNW_?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfiGdTJXoAAtzQn?format=jpg&name=medium

[Sulland]

Looking forward to som video footage of the testing. To see and hear the car.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Chris Ingram:

"This is a perfect class."

[Andre Oliveira]

Video clip

https://twitter.com/ewrcresults/status/1295821200862609408?s=21

[pantealex]

Engine sound is very bad
but it´s "Rally4 4WD" so it sounds like Rally4

Otherwise I like it a lot

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Not so bad sound considering its on that section of slow gravel.

[Mirek]

there is a thing called gearbox. The engine won't sound different in a fast section.

[Sulland]

Sound a bit like an old Gr N car. Makes sense since it is those cars it it suppose to take over from.
Al least in the clip it runs pretty low revs, lets see when we see a clip where it stretches out a bit more!

But this class is just born, and will develop with jokers as Rally2/R5 has done.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Jon Armstrong vid on the Rally3 car:
https://youtu.be/PbW1M9oZtlk

[pantealex]

I repeat: Both Rally3 and Rally4(R2T) have same 0,999L 3-zylinder engine so sound will be very much same

just like A- and N-group Mitsu or Subaru sounded very much same.

If you don´t see the car, you can´t say is it Rally3 or Rally4 version...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Isn't the extra weight of the 4WD hardware likely to hamper performance compared to the 2WD version on tarmac ? Or will the extra traction and grip be enough to compensate ?

[Rally Power]

Isn't the extra weight of the 4WD hardware likely to hamper performance compared to the 2WD version on tarmac ? Or will the extra traction and grip be enough to compensate ?

That’s a good point. On dry tarmac Rally3 cars won’t get a chance against Rally4 cars unless they’ll be allowed to use a wider restrictor. The extra power from a 33 or 34mm air restrictor would compensate the 4wd weight, besides being in line with FIA’s class pyramid purpose.

Btw, as in the top class, the FIA needs to attract more manus to the lower categories: currently there are only 3 brands involved in Rally5/4/3; that’s ridiculously low.

[br21]

Hard to imagine 1,0l engine which is already making ~215hp to run with much more power and still be reliable...

[Rally Power]

Hard to imagine 1,0l engine which is already making ~215hp to run with much more power and still be reliable...

No idea of how much more power and torque they had but the Fiesta Rally4 (as the ’19 R2) was using a 33mm restrictor until June, when the regs changed it to 30mm. The 208 was also developed having the wider restrictor in mind.

Anyway, without finding a way of making Rally3 cars competitive on tarmac the FIA risks having another ‘4wd entry class’ fiasco, after the R4 Kit failed attempt.

[Sulland]

Renault is using a 4 cyl 1333 ccm engine (R2C) on their Rally5, will they use the same base for their rally4 and rally3 cars?
Or will they go R2B for their Rally3/Rally4?

[pantealex]

Renault is using a 4 cyl 1333 ccm engine (R2C) on their Rally5, will they use the same base for their rally4 and rally3 cars?
Or will they go R2B for their Rally3/Rally4?

I don´t know but I´m expecting 1.2T

Is 1,33T even allowed in Rally3/4 ?

[Rally Power]

Renault is using a 4 cyl 1333 ccm engine (R2C) on their Rally5, will they use the same base for their rally4 and rally3 cars?
Or will they go R2B for their Rally3/Rally4?

No need to change engines as Rally 5/4 (and partially 3) allows the car upgrading, just like in Gr.N/A days; Renault (and hopefully other manus in the future) will sold a Rally4 kit for Rally5 owners. Besides, Rally5/4 turbo engines max capacity is 1333cc (non turbo limited to 1600cc in Rally5 and 2000cc in Rally4).

Btw, Rally4 rules changes approved in last June (including a new 30mm restrictor) will only be effective from January 1. The cars will become a bit slower but, surprisingly, Rally3 cars will also be forced to use the small restrictor, meaning they won’t get any advantage on tarmac events regarding Rally4 cars.

June WMSC resolutions on Rally 5/4/3 can be seen on Regional Rally Championships section: https://www.fia.com/news/fia-announces-world-motor-sport-council-decisions-18

[Sulland]

If tests show that Rally3 need this larger restrictor to be able to get the power needed to utilise the 4wd, FIA could opt to keep a bigger restrictor for the 4wd I guess.

[pantealex]

If tests show that Rally3 need this larger restrictor to be able to get the power needed to utilise the 4wd, FIA could opt to keep a bigger restrictor for the 4wd I guess.

If engines don´t last, car is not so cheap anymore...

[Sulland]

If engines don´t last, car is not so cheap anymore...

Fully agree, but do we know that durability is the reason to reduce restrictor size, or is it that Rally4 is so much quicker compared to existing R2 cars?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

M-Sport to homologate first Rally3 car:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sport-on-course-to-deliver-worlds-first-rally3-car/

[Sulland]

So, MSport will be first again to homologate for a new class!
The Rally3 could turn out to be another money maker for them.

Renault is still standing with a plan on paper, arent they?

[Jarek Z]

New photos from Ford Fiesta Rally3 tests that were held in Poland this month can be found below. It wasn't revealed who was driving the car. It is only known that this time it wasn't Kajto and that the driver wasn't Polish:
https://wokolmotoryzacji.pl/fiesta-rally3-przylapana-przez-nas-w-trakcie-testow-w-gminie-debno/?fbclid=IwAR0X0qaXcV0SgsIBatQo8b1Gi2zf5jV5Pcc3W2wm AbMyxoC6Av03WzD8UAM

[Rally Power]

Renault is still standing with a plan on paper, arent they?

According to the rumours yes, but before the Clio Rally3 they'll launch the Rally4, on which they're now working (in order to homologate it on early 2021).

[Andre Oliveira]

https://twitter.com/ewrcresults/status/1308095521039552512?s=21

https://twitter.com/ewrcresults/status/1307996837115199488?s=21

[Andre Oliveira]

https://youtu.be/2C2A5wvRRPw

[Andre Oliveira]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/m-sport-reveals-1-5-liter-engine-plan-for-rally3/amp/#click=https://t.co/NqAuG3X4ef

M-Sport reveals 1.5-liter engine plan for Rally3
More details of M-Sport's latest rally car have been revealed – and there's a surprise under the hood

David Evans
M-Sport reveals 1.5-liter engine plan for Rally3
M-Sport Poland’s groundbreaking Ford Fiesta Rally3 will run an all-new 1.5-liter turbocharged engine when it arrives in January.

The world’s first four-wheel drive Rally3 car will be powered by the 197bhp EcoBoost unit found in the Fiesta ST road car. The original expectation had been that it would follow the one-litre route from the Fiesta Rally4.

The FIA took the decision to broaden the original Rally3 regulations to allow for cars from one liter to 1.6 – with power outputs equalized and regulated via the turbo’s restrictor.

These changes in rules governing which engines can be used in what’s increasingly seen as a vital class for domestic rallying – as well as the progression through the World Rally Championship – are the reason the Fiesta Rally3 began its testing programme later than planned.

M-Sport on course to deliver world’s first Rally3 car
The Fiesta Rally3 is in the middle of an intensive asphalt and gravel test schedule in Poland. The car is expected to continue with more rough road running next month.

M-Sport Poland managing director Maciek Woda told DirtFish: “When it became clear we could make the change from the one-liter engine, we were keen to work with Ford on that. This three-cylinder, turbocharged engine just gives us that bit more torque – which is great for a four-wheel drive car.”

The standard torque figure from the Fiesta ST road car is 214lb-ft (290Nm).

“The engine has worked really well,” said Woda. “We are very happy with the way the testing’s going. We’re gathering good and useful data and having no major problems.”

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Now imagine if GR Yaris is eligible for Rally 3..

Sent from my Redmi 6 using Tapatalk

[Sulland]

If it is 1620 ccm for Rally3 as well, then it could happen, but what do we know of allowed 4wd systems in this class?

Toyota GR Yaris - Technical Specifications


Type: 3 in line cylinders.
Valve mechanism: DOHC 12-valve with VVTi.
Fuel system: D4S - Direct & indirect injection.
Supercharging: Turbo.
Displacement: 1.618 cm3.
Bore x stroke: 87.5 mm X 89.7 mm.
Compression ratio: 10.5:1.
Max. power: 261hp/192kW.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://youtu.be/2C2A5wvRRPw

That sounds quite different at full chat on asphalt.

[pantealex]

[FONT=arial]If it is 1620 ccm for Rally3 as well, then it could happen, but what do we know of allowed 4wd systems in this class?[B][B]



It doesn´t matter which 4wd or other "transmission" system road car has ...

[Rally Power]

[FONT=arial]If it is 1620 ccm for Rally3 as well, then it could happen

With so many rule changes, it woudn't be a surprise having the new limit raised to 1620cc...

Anyway, Rally3 is increasingly becoming a sort of light R5 rather than a Rally4+; somehow it makes sense as the originally planned up to 1333cc engines (using a 30mm restrictor) would probably limit the cars interest, especially on tarmac.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://www.facebook.com/430031057055049/posts/3451734444884680/?extid=0vxuEsEXodAMOPoM&d=n

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjGx0PZXcAEVnM4?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjGx0PhWsAIWt9Q?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjGx0PjWoAM3Z3p?format=jpg&name=medium

[Sulland]

Would love to see a Rally3 project from Tommi Makinen Racing, based on the GR Yaris.

[scn]

Except of Latvalla, Neuville and Sainz, no other driver in WRC history would ever have the chance to become a WRC driver if there were not cheap cars when they were young. There would not be any Vatanen, Mikkola, Alen, Rohrl, Auriol, Kankkunen, McRae, Loeb, Ogier. None of these rally masters had the financial ability in their youth to drive cars of the cost of R2s and R3s of modern times. R2s and R3s are awfully expensive for 99% of the young drivers. This destructive regulation must stop immediately and there must be regulations that permit cheap rally cars to be made.

I am 51 years old, I have my own business and I cannot buy an R3. I drive an old GrA with 190bhp on 880 kg that cost 25.000 euros and lots of personal hours to build, with a homologated roll cage from Custom Cages. It is immense stupidity or utter hypocrisy to ask a 25-year-old driver to find 100.000 euros for an R3.

[wyler]

Except of Latvalla, Neuville and Sainz, no other driver in WRC history would ever have the chance to become a WRC driver if there were not cheap cars when they were young. There would not be any Vatanen, Mikkola, Alen, Rohrl, Auriol, Kankkunen, McRae, Loeb, Ogier. None of these rally masters had the financial ability in their youth to drive cars of the cost of R2s and R3s of modern times. R2s and R3s are awfully expensive for 99% of the young drivers. This destructive regulation must stop immediately and there must be regulations that permit cheap rally cars to be made.

I am 51 years old, I have my own business and I cannot buy an R3. I drive an old GrA with 190bhp on 880 kg that cost 25.000 euros and lots of personal hours to build, with a homologated roll cage from Custom Cages. It is immense stupidity or utter hypocrisy to ask a 25-year-old driver to find 100.000 euros for an R3.

there's still some way, imo.
Young drivers (<25) will start in rally5/4 in their national championship, whit cup like renault or peugeot or with fiesta ladder (all the way from rally4 to top). then there's junior wrc (or erc). at that time, if talented enough they have won some race/series in entry category and should find sponsor and a drive in r3 or above. no need to buy one themself...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Would love to see a Rally3 project from Tommi Makinen Racing, based on the GR Yaris.

Indeed - we need more manufacturers to make Rally3 cars, otherwise it will just be a Fiesta 'One-make Championship' and this will never replace all the R5 cars.

[Rally Power]

Good news: Toyota confirms the development of Rally2 and Rally3 cars: https://dirtfish.com/rally/toyota-set-expand-rally-car-line-up-into-rally2-and-rally3/

[Sulland]

I actually thought it to be the other way around.
Gazoo new facility for Rally1 team, and R&D.
Tommy Makinen Racing to make and sell the customer cars from old facility and parts of the Estonian one.

But same same, the important thing is that they will come with Rally2 and 3 cars!

[Andre Oliveira]

After the 3 days in Poland last week, now in Sardinia.

Pic of Gianluca Sanna

https://scontent.fopo3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p526x296/121642142_3919478531414878_5306170370662723976_o.j pg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=17lWiNNFyA4AX_Dpm18&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo3-2.fna&tp=6&oh=35f4660c1bae294d66eb196e6bc2afdf&oe=5FAFFB9D

[AnttiL]

I want to post to get me "following" this thread.

Where would you see these cars being used? WRC3? JWRC? Or would there be JWRC and JWRC2 for 4WD and 2WD cars with different prices? I believe in Finland they could use this in the SM2 category (SM1 is Rally2 cars, SM2 is currently mostly old Group N cars)

[Sulland]

Do we know if MSport will testrun the Rally3 in a rally, outside competition, to promote the new class?
Just so potential buyers can see the potential.

[Sulland]

I want to post to get me "following" this thread.

Where would you see these cars being used? WRC3? JWRC? Or would there be JWRC and JWRC2 for 4WD and 2WD cars with different prices? I believe in Finland they could use this in the SM2 category (SM1 is Rally2 cars, SM2 is currently mostly old Group N cars)

I see them go into RC3 in Int rallys, not many new R3 cars made/sold anymore.
In national series I guess it will be a bit different, but the plan with this class is to replace N4.

[AnttiL]

Except of Latvalla, Neuville and Sainz, no other driver in WRC history would ever have the chance to become a WRC driver if there were not cheap cars when they were young. There would not be any Vatanen, Mikkola, Alen, Rohrl, Auriol, Kankkunen, McRae, Loeb, Ogier. None of these rally masters had the financial ability in their youth to drive cars of the cost of R2s and R3s of modern times. R2s and R3s are awfully expensive for 99% of the young drivers. This destructive regulation must stop immediately and there must be regulations that permit cheap rally cars to be made.

I am 51 years old, I have my own business and I cannot buy an R3. I drive an old GrA with 190bhp on 880 kg that cost 25.000 euros and lots of personal hours to build, with a homologated roll cage from Custom Cages. It is immense stupidity or utter hypocrisy to ask a 25-year-old driver to find 100.000 euros for an R3.

Dunno why you mentioned Neuville, since he started with an Opel Corsa and didn't really have a lot of budget. However, you could probably add Oliver Rovanperä and Oliver Solberg to the list.

I don't think Rally3 (not R3! targeted to someone's first rally car or a hobby rally car. It will be an entry-level 4WD car that can compete in national championships and perhaps even WRC3, another step on the ladder which is now missing between Rally4 and Rally2.

I don't think individual people just go and buy a rally car like this (well some rich people probably do), but there's obviously a team with funding behind to get one, and usually with some background in other cars before that.

[pantealex]

I see them go into RC3 in Int rallys, not many new R3 cars made/sold anymore.
In national series I guess it will be a bit different, but the plan with this class is to replace N4.

R3/R3T are in RC4 (same as Rally4/R2) 2021-

so RC3 is only for Rally3 from 2021-

[Sulland]

R3/R3T are in RC4 (same as Rally4/R2) 2021-

so RC3 is only for Rally3 from 2021-

Good, so they get their own class.

And we know Ford is coming and Toyota will make Rally3 after cyl volume changed from 1000 to 1620 ccm.

what about the French brands, any news on them?

will Ford sell kits, so teams can modify a nirmal Fiesta shell to accept the 4wd, and bolt on the rest of the kit?

[Kenneth]

There were rumours about Renault Rally3 and also Dirtfish mentioned today that there will be Hyundai Rally3

[Rally Power]

I want to post to get me "following" this thread.

Where would you see these cars being used? WRC3? JWRC? Or would there be JWRC and JWRC2 for 4WD and 2WD cars with different prices? I believe in Finland they could use this in the SM2 category (SM1 is Rally2 cars, SM2 is currently mostly old Group N cars)

Yep, it’s not hard to imagine Rally3 as a new WRC support series, alongside JWRC and WRC2, or replacing ERC2 (and even ERC1 Junior) in the ERC. In national championships they can, finally, take N4 place.

[Sulland]

There were rumours about Renault Rally3 and also Dirtfish mentioned today that there will be Hyundai Rally3

And when Opel now homologates the Rally4 Corsa soon, well, maybe we could see a Corsa Rally3 car from them. Opel needs it, to continue their strong rally history.

https://translate.google.com/translate?source=gtx&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.opel-motorsport.com%2Fmotorsport%2Fopel-rallye%2Faktuelles%2Fartikel%2Fnews%2Fdetail%2FNew s%2Fder-corsa-rally4-steht-in-den-startloechern%2F

[Fast Eddie WRC]

With many maker's current road cars now often hybrid and then being fully-electric in the near future, are ICE Rally3 cars still a good image to promote them ?

[AnttiL]

With many maker's current road cars now often hybrid and then being fully-electric in the near future, are ICE Rally3 cars still a good image to promote them ?

Well, manufacturers aren’t really spending marketing money on lower class cars. The business of building and selling the cars is usually outsourced to a company like M-Sport and the cars are run by privateer teams. All they have to do is sign the homologation paper.

Think of VW and the Polo R5. They put it out after pulling out of combustion engine motorsports, but only one WRC event had a manufacturer team entry.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.fiaerc.com/new-for-2021-rally3-cars-heading-to-erc/

[Sulland]

Seems like Nil Solans will be first pilot in the Rally3 Fiesta, from https://www.emotorsport.se/nyheter.php?in=2&nyhets_id=19653

Solans satisfied with Fiesta Rally3, is expected to make the WC & EC start for M-Sport 2021.
Soon M-Sport will launch Ford Fiesta Rally3, then performance and price tag will be presented. The car that will be the step between Rally2 and Rally4, simply explained the step between R2 and R5. The car is a four-wheel drive and sharpened R2 rather than a slimmed down R5. The look is tamer, no expensive spoiler kits or expensive components. The class will make its debut on January 1st, then the FIA ​​homologation will also be ready for the car and it can start competing. The car has been developed and built by the M-Sports Polish branch, those who also handle the operation of the Junior WC series and the two-wheel drive cars.
https://www.emotorsport.se/bilder/0.gif

Fiesta Rally3 will be the first four-wheel drive Ford for the team in Poland, the big test and development work has been done by former junior world champion, the Spaniard Nil Solans.

Four-wheel drive and just over 200 horsepower await, the price tag is expected to end up at 200-300´000 kronor more than a fully equipped Fiesta Rally4 which is then used in the WC series - at the same time well below a Fiesta Rally2.

The car and the class will even out the steps for juniors, an intermediate step for driving four-wheel drive with a smaller budget. Solans as a test driver believes that the driving technique is very similar to what awaits when you later take the step up to Rally2 - a good car to learn in, says the Spaniard.

Above all, the car is aimed at a start for national and regional series such as the European Championships. But as more manufacturers join - Hyundai has shown interest, as have Peugeot, Opel and Toyota. This means that in the long run the class can become today's WRC3 as all Rally2 crews are instead referred to WRC2.

There is now much to suggest that Solans will also act as driver in the car when it debuts, for M-Sport it is about marketing the car globally to sell class and car and bring home invested money. Even starts in the World Cup series are waiting with the Spaniard behind the wheel to show off the car's performance and reliability!

[Jarek Z]

Is something going to happen on November 13?
https://www.facebook.com/MSportPoland/videos/387216692714162/

[pantealex]

Is something going to happen on November 13?
https://www.facebook.com/MSportPoland/videos/387216692714162/

Official presentation of Rally3 car ???

[Sulland]

Official presentation of Rally3 car ???

Guess so, and maybe a homologation date and price on their car.

Any news on who will be next out, or will they give the initial market to MSport for free?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Good read:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/why-the-fiesta-rally3-is-vitally-important-to-rallyings-future

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Video via Dirtfish:

https://youtu.be/XVN0QhB81Rs

[RS]

I like this concept.. curious to see how it looks on dry tarmac, but 400nm is quite impressive. What do R5 cars put out these days?

[Mirek]

The first R5 had less.

[br21]

do we know what size restrictor Rally3 will use?

[Sulland]

What regime is in place for this class for upgrades to keep cost down for the future?
Will it be frozen for x years once homologatet, joker system or something else?

[Mirek]

What regime is in place for this class for upgrades to keep cost down for the future?
Will it be frozen for x years once homologatet, joker system or something else?

AFAIK same system as for R5.

[Steve Boyd]

Is something going to happen on November 13?
https://www.facebook.com/MSportPoland/videos/387216692714162/

Friday 13th is supposed to be unlucky . . . . . .

[Andre Oliveira]

https://www.m-sport.co.uk/single-post/all-new-fiesta-rally3

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/89553f_02f54d9fb764466d946420bfb31f21e8~mv2.jpeg/v1/fill/w_740,h_493,al_c,q_90,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/89553f_02f54d9fb764466d946420bfb31f21e8~mv2.webp

INTRODUCING THE ALL-NEW FIESTA RALLY3

The all-new M-Sport Fiesta Rally3 is the first car built for the FIA’s Rally3 category, completing M-Sport’s ‘Ladder of Opportunity’ and the FIA Rally Pyramid.

Rally3 is a new category of rally car created to provide an accessible and affordable first step on the four-wheel drive ladder to be used on national, regional and world-level rallies.

The Fiesta Rally3 marks a new era for M-Sport – the first and so far, only manufacturer to offer a car for every tier of the FIA Rally Pyramid. The cost-effective four-wheel drive Fiesta Rally3 was designed and developed in M-Sport Poland’s state of the art facility in Krakow, Poland.

The M-Sport Fiesta Rally3 is undergoing an intense development programme on a variety of surfaces and conditions across Europe, using a unique cross section of world class drivers. A clear set of targets and standards have now been identified for the Fiesta Rally3 to establish unrivalled reliability. The most notable target is the homologation date; M-Sport Poland will homologate the first ever Rally3 car on 1st March 2021.

The M-Sport Fiesta Rally3 will be available for €99,999 excluding VAT and registration costs. In anticipation of the popularity of the Rally3 category, production is already underway in Krakow and deposits for first orders will be accepted from 16th November.

This offers customers the opportunity to take delivery of their Fiesta Rally3 from the date of homologation and begin their Rally3 championship campaigns just in time for the start of the 2021 season.

For further enquiries please contact: Rally3CarSales@m-sport.co.uk

A 1.5-litre EcoBoost engine will power the Fiesta Rally3, giving it a distinctive sound, combined with aggressive looks thanks to bonnet vents and a rear wing that provide as much function as they do form.

The all-new Fiesta Rally3 weighs in at 1210kg with a power output of 215BHP and 400Nm of torque from the 1.5 litre EcoBoost engine all transmitted through a five-speed sequential gearbox.

Reaching 100km/h in just five seconds and a top speed of 185km/h the M-Sport Fiesta Rally3 provides the perfect transition step for the next generation of rally drivers looking to cut their teeth in four-wheel drive machinery. M-Sport’s Fiesta Rally3 is sprung by three-way adjustable dampers front and rear using 17-inch and 15-inch rims for tarmac and gravel respectively.

It was important to M-Sport to begin work on the Fiesta Rally3 as soon as draft regulations were available, underlining M-Sport’s commitment to supporting drivers around the world from grassroots to greatness on the world stage. With such a broad spectrum of drivers in mind M-Sport Poland has ensured the testing programme reflects this by using a truly diverse selection of drivers from world championship veterans to those new to four-wheel drive machinery.

Maciej Woda, M-Sport Poland Director:

“I am very happy with how things are progressing with the Fiesta Rally3. Every time I see the development car, I feel very proud of the entire team that is working tirelessly and has been throughout 2020 on this truly ground-breaking car. In what has been a very difficult year for everybody, the team at Krakow are excelling themselves with the Fiesta Rally3, not letting anything get in the way of design and development. I want to say a huge congratulations and thank you to everybody contributing to this project so far. The Fiesta Rally3 and the collective effort going into its creation embodies everything that M-Sport exists for: providing every opportunity to the next generation of drivers. The Fiesta Rally3 will by no means be an alternative to any car that is out there currently, it will be a brand-new concept serving what has been a very underserved area of rallying. It will be the perfect steppingstone for those graduating from two-wheel to four-wheel drive, allowing drivers to learn and refine the skills needed to handle four-wheel drive machinery which is a massive step for any driver. Since early talks about the concept of Rally3, we have all been quite excited about the potential of this category. The cost cap was a key sticking point for us, and I feel €99,999 will be a very good price point for an entry level four-wheel drive car, especially for national and regional rally championships around the world.”

[Andre Oliveira]

https://youtu.be/bQ8K3kATSEw

[Sulland]

I think this class has potential to be even more popular than Rally2/R5 has been in number of produced cars.
And being first again, M-Sport will get a head start, and make good money.
The Fiesta Mk1 R5 with jokers is still a competitive car, and hopefully this one will last many years, and be fighting for class wins.

This one will be the success R4 could have been, had FIA not gone for sole source on the kit, and put the max price too high.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Is anything known yet about any potential competitors for the Fiesta Rally3 ?

I heard Renault was rumoured to be developing one and Hyundai said in the past they were planning to enter the Rally3 area...

[Jarek Z]

I read somewhere (but I forgot where) that Ford (or M-Sport) will be the only company in the world to offer a rally car in each class:

Rally1 - Ford Fiesta WRC
Rally2 - Ford Fiesta R5 / Rally2
Rally3 - Ford Fiesta Rally3
Rally4 - Ford Fiesta Rally4
Rally5 - does Ford Fiesta Rally5 exist???

[Tom K]

Yes, it does* https://www.m-sport.co.uk/fiesta-rally5 and can even score for example in ERC3 Junior: https://www.fiaerc.com/rally5-drivers-for-erc3-junior/

* It was presented as R1 and changed the number :)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I read somewhere (but I forgot where) that Ford (or M-Sport) will be the only company in the world to offer a rally car in each class:

Rally1 - Ford Fiesta WRC
Rally2 - Ford Fiesta R5 / Rally2
Rally3 - Ford Fiesta Rally3
Rally4 - Ford Fiesta Rally4
Rally5 - does Ford Fiesta Rally5 exist???

What a fantastic achievement for one team to create the full set of of cars.

None of the full Manufacturer teams have even come close.

M-Sport should be given the highest award from the FIA.

[dimviii]

What a fantastic achievement for one team to create the full set of of cars.

None of the full Manufacturer teams have even come close.


its because they dont have money,and they are going to bankrupt.

[Sulland]

The Rally3 Fiesta can be ordered from today, 16 November.

Hopefully M-Sport can have it homologated from 1/1-21, so someone can use it from the beginning of next season.

https://www.m-sport.co.uk/fiesta-rally3

How many cars will they sell in 2021? Will they pass 50?

[AnttiL]

Fiesta Rally3 is to be homologated in March 2021

[pantealex]

The Rally3 Fiesta can be ordered from today, 16 November.

Hopefully M-Sport can have it homologated from 1/1-21, so someone can use it from the beginning of next season.

https://www.m-sport.co.uk/fiesta-rally3


How many cars will they sell in 2021? Will they pass 50?

From your link: Sport Poland will homologate the first ever Rally3 car on 1st March 2021.
(you didn´t bother to read what you shared :) )

[Sulland]

From your link: Sport Poland will homologate the first ever Rally3 car on 1st March 2021.
(you didn´t bother to read what you shared :) )

Yes i read it all, but many national series starts earlier than that, and if it had been homologated in january, they could plan with one car in 2021. Mainly people that habe to pay the cars themselves.

[pantealex]

Yes i read it all, but many national series starts earlier than that, and if it had been homologated in january, they could plan with one car in 2021. Mainly people that habe to pay the cars themselves.

Which national series have Championship class for Rally3 ?
(I know you can make entry to rally with Rally3 but for points I mean)

[Tom K]

I think there is no Rally3 class in any championship by now. The class is about to make a debut in 2021. The amount of the cars at the beginning could not be enough for Rally3 class only, so maybe FIA should think about what to do with these cars in 2021. In my opinion it could be driven in ERC2 where we have Impreza and Evo.

[Rally Power]

do we know what size restrictor Rally3 will use?

At the beginning it was told that the restrictor size would vary according to engine capacity, but in June it was finally announced a 30mm restrictor for all Rally3 models.
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-announces-world-motor-sport-council-decisions-18 (on regional rally)


Is anything known yet about any potential competitors for the Fiesta Rally3 ?
I heard Renault was rumoured to be developing one and Hyundai said in the past they were planning to enter the Rally3 area...

Dirtfish already reported that Toyota and Hyundai will launch Rally3 cars during 2021. With the rules changes it’s not known when, and if, Peugeot and Renault will announce their models; with the same restrictor for all, it’s not clear how 1.2 or 1.3 cars can now match 1.5 or 1.6 machines.

[RS]

At the beginning it was told that the restrictor size would vary according to engine capacity, but in June it was finally announced a 30mm restrictor for all Rally3 models.
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-announces-world-motor-sport-council-decisions-18 (on regional rally)



Dirtfish already reported that Toyota and Hyundai will launch Rally3 cars during 2021. With the rules changes it’s not known when, and if, Peugeot and Renault will announce their models; with the same restrictor for all, it’s not clear how 1.2 or 1.3 cars can now match 1.5 or 1.6 machines.

Does the engine have to be closely based on a road car engine fitted to that model or can the cylinder capacity be enlarged? If no such changes are allowed then it seems rather short sighted they didn’t do something with the restrictor size. It could be rather limiting if a manufacturer does not have a 1.5/1.6 litre engine fitted to the road going model.

[Rally Power]

Does the engine have to be closely based on a road car engine fitted to that model or can the cylinder capacity be enlarged? If no such changes are allowed then it seems rather short sighted they didn’t do something with the restrictor size. It could be rather limiting if a manufacturer does not have a 1.5/1.6 litre engine fitted to the road going model.

That's a good question. In Rally4/5 they're based on the road car engine and once MSport is apparently using the Fiesta ST 1.5 engine (instead of a 1.6) on its Rally3 car, probably they must still be based in stock engines (it's becoming hard to remember that they were meant to be just a 4wd Rally4 upgrade...).

Btw, another strange reg move is to have all Rally4 cars with the same weight (and restrictor), meaning that 1.0 cars crews will hardly be able to match 1.2 or 1.3 rivals, as they now do. And once Rally5 cars won’t get the 30mm restrictor, probably we’ll end seeing the fastest Rally5 drivers pretty close to Rally4 competitors. Time will tell.

[Sulland]

Which national series have Championship class for Rally3 ?
(I know you can make entry to rally with Rally3 but for points I mean)

Up here i guess they will go in class 4,



Klasse 4
Gr.A, R2C og R3C 1601 - 2000 cm³, Super 1600,
R3T (maks. 1600 cm³) og R3D (maks. 2000 cm³)




In Norway, not many have ever started in this class. We had a few S1600 back in the days, and 1 R3T as far as I remember.

[Mirek]

That's a good question. In Rally4/5 they're based on the road car engine and once MSport is apparently using the Fiesta ST 1.5 engine (instead of a 1.6) on its Rally3 car, probably they must still be based in stock engines (it's becoming hard to remember that they were meant to be just a 4wd Rally4 upgrade...).

Btw, another strange reg move is to have all Rally4 cars with the same weight (and restrictor), meaning that 1.0 cars crews will hardly be able to match 1.2 or 1.3 rivals, as they now do. And once Rally5 cars won’t get the 30mm restrictor, probably we’ll end seeing the fastest Rally5 drivers pretty close to Rally4 competitors. Time will tell.

Why do You think that 1.0 with the same restrictor would have less power than 1.2 or 1.3? With the same restrictor the power difference shall be all about the efficiency and that could be actually better with 1.0 (less innertia and friction). The question is whether there won't be issue with the size of valves in the small engine or something else I didn't think about.

P.S. I'm no motoring engineer so I may be wrong. Maybe someone can correct me.

[Rally Power]

Why do You think that 1.0 with the same restrictor would have less power than 1.2 or 1.3? With the same restrictor the power difference shall be all about the efficiency and that could be actually better with 1.0 (less innertia and friction). The question is whether there won't be issue with the size of valves in the small engine or something else I didn't think about.
P.S. I'm no motoring engineer so I may be wrong. Maybe someone can correct me.

Take a closer look mate; in Rally4 case I’ve mentioned the weight regs change as the main doubt on 1.0 cars future speed. Probably, there’s no need to be an engineer to get that the Fiesta and the 208 paces are pretty leveled today, once the Fiesta can compensate its lower CC by having less 80kgs. Without that weight compensation and once they’ll use the same restrictor, is it hard to believe that the Fiesta can be outpaced?

[Mirek]

Take a closer look mate; in Rally4 case I’ve mentioned the weight regs change as the main doubt on 1.0 cars future speed. Probably, there’s no need to be an engineer to get that the Fiesta and the 208 paces are pretty leveled today, once the Fiesta can compensate its lower CC by having less 80kgs. Without that weight compensation and once they’ll use the same restrictor, is it hard to believe that the Fiesta can be outpaced?

That's if you suppose that the cars will have same power ratio as they have now. I wouldn't be sure about that. I mean that the smaller restrictor may affect the larger engine's efficiency more than the smaller one. Let's wait and see.

[br21]

Fiesta min. weight is now 50kg less than 208. Apparently with 30mm restrictor max power/torque should should be almost identical to current ones. Simply turbos and engine volumes are so small that it wont affect that much. OK, probably driveability, power/torque curve can be affected, and theoretically 1,0l should be less affected than 1,2l as it needs less air, but it depends also on airflow throught intake (intercooler, manifold, etc). Second question is reliability, as increasing turbo speed can increase power, but affect turbo life...

[Mirek]

Fiesta min. weight is now 50kg less than 208. Apparently with 30mm restrictor max power/torque should should be almost identical to current ones. Simply turbos and engine volumes are so small that it wont affect that much. OK, probably driveability, power/torque curve can be affected, and theoretically 1,0l should be less affected than 1,2l as it needs less air, but it depends also on airflow throught intake (intercooler, manifold, etc). Second question is reliability, as increasing turbo speed can increase power, but affect turbo life...

Sorry for probably stupid questions :)

Is the turbo pressure limited by the rules?
If not is the turbo pressure determined purely by reliability (and cost limit) and not by the maximum restrictor flow?

[Rally Power]

Fiesta min. weight is now 50kg less than 208.

Yep, wrong me; still that 50kg advantage will vanish in January and every kg matter in top level rally.

[Alpine-110]

Can this fiesta R3 do testrallies before it is homologation next year ?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Latest Absolute Rally podcast with a good discussion on Rally3 and if its really going to be worthwhile:

https://www.absoluterally.co.uk/

https://www.podbean.com/eu/pb-cyiv2-f2b69a

[Mirek]

Can this fiesta R3 do testrallies before it is homologation next year ?

For sure they can negotiate to drive as VIP or zero cars somewhere.

[RS]

How come minimum weight on these is lower than R5/Rally2? Do R5 carry ballast?

[Steve Boyd]

Can this fiesta R3 do testrallies before it is homologation next year ?
Nothing to stop them doing National Rallies, as long as the car complies with the technical rules of the country concerned. I'm pretty sure they'd be OK on a National event in the UK, if they hadn't been stopped because of Covid.

[pantealex]

Can this fiesta R3 do testrallies before it is homologation next year ?

Yes. Finland (and few other countries) have class for "Future FIA cars"

[pantealex]

How come minimum weight on these is lower than R5/Rally2? Do R5 carry ballast?

R5/Rally2 is 1.6L
Fiesta Rally3 is 1.5L (and Renault/PSA probably 1.2L)

There are probably also some "tecnical parts" which add minimum weigh
(in past paddle shift was +50kg etc)

My question:
Is Rally3 using 18" tarmac wheels or smaller like Rally4 is using?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Anyone who cant/hasnt listened to the AR Podcast, there was a consensus that the Rally3 car doesnt really make sense for the following reasons:

1. The rally 'ladder' isnt really used - no-one really goes up this step by step.
2. A top impressive young driver can go from (old class) R2 2wd to R5 4wd car quite easily, no need to adapt before
3. Such drivers, or rich gentlemen drivers', just want to get in an R5 asap as this is the class to be seen in and with the extra power
4. Money-wise people would also rather have a used R5 than a new Rally3
5. What is the competition in Rally3 without other manufacturer's

[PLuto]

Anyone who cant/hasnt listened to the AR Podcast, there was a consensus that the Rally3 car doesnt really make sense for the following reasons:

1. The rally 'ladder' isnt really used - no-one really goes up this step by step.
2. A top impressive young driver can go from (old class) R2 2wd to R5 4wd car quite easily, no need to adapt before
3. Such drivers, or rich gentlemen drivers', just want to get in an R5 asap as this is the class to be seen in and with the extra power
4. Money-wise people would also rather have a used R5 than a new Rally3
5. What is the competition in Rally3 without other manufacturer's

It has the sense when JWRC will be done with Rally3 cars... And of course there will be other manufacturers too, only Ford is first again.

[Mirek]

Exactly, the car is made for JWRC and it seems that it has a potential to bring the JWRC championship to a whole new level similar to what was known 15 years ago. Except for that it can work in gravel countries but I don't expect it to be very popular in asphalt ones.

[AnttiL]

2. A top impressive young driver can go from (old class) R2 2wd to R5 4wd car quite easily, no need to adapt before

I think this is a weird argument considering they've repeated for years that R5's are too expensive for national leagues and that's why BRC has too low entry numbers.

When you go from Rally4 (R2) to Rally2 (R5) not only the budgets get much higher, but the cars also start going a lot faster, and you also need to learn driving 4WD and setting up the car at the same time (Rally4 cars have very limited setup capabilities, which will be similar in Rally3).

Especially if we start having Rally3 as common cars in the second tier national and ERC leagues, I see them very useful. Nowadays these second tier leagues are still filled with Evo's and Imprezas, which are quite outdated by now. I would also assume Rally3 is closer to Rally2 in feeling, compared to N4/R4 cars with bigger chassises and engines.

[pantealex]

I see (used) Rally3 as replacement for Mitsu/Subaru on national level.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Main issue according to the 4 knowledgable guys on the AR Podcast is that Rally3 will still be too expensive for beginners and too slow for the talented/ambitious/wealthy.

Time will tell.

[Mirek]

I see (used) Rally3 as replacement for Mitsu/Subaru on national level.

In gravel counties yes, in asphalt ones there is nothing left to be replaced. Even here where we once used to have around 50 Evos per event we have a handful maximum now.


Main issue according to the 4 knowledgable guys on the AR Podcast is that Rally3 will still be too expensive for beginners and too slow for the talented/ambitious/wealthy.

There is no point talking about some imaginery miracle supercheap fast cars which don't exist.

[the sniper]

Main issue according to the 4 knowledgable guys on the AR Podcast is that Rally3 will still be too expensive for beginners and too slow for the talented/ambitious/wealthy.

Time will tell.

Why would a beginner be getting into a Rally3?

[AnttiL]

Why would a beginner be getting into a Rally3?

And more specifically, a new one. In a couple of years we could expect to see second-hand Rally3 cars on the market.

[m-ast]

In gravel counties yes, in asphalt ones there is nothing left to be replaced. Even here where we once used to have around 50 Evos per event we have a handful maximum now.


I think quite the same as you, in Spain Evos and Impreza were really common cars, especially Evos, and in last year them disapear in big numbers, becoming quite rare even in regional events that some years ago could have many.

[AnttiL]

I think quite the same as you, in Spain Evos and Impreza were really common cars, especially Evos, and in last year them disapear in big numbers, becoming quite rare even in regional events that some years ago could have many.

Have the N5 cars taken that place?

[Jarek Z]

Main issue according to the 4 knowledgable guys on the AR Podcast is that Rally3 will still be too expensive for beginners

The same was said about Super 1600 cars when they appeared. As far as I remember their price was also about 100 000 €? But at the end of the day this class produced many future champions.

[Mirek]

The same was said about Super 1600 cars when they appeared. As far as I remember their price was also about 100 000 €? But at the end of the day this class produced many future champions.

S1600 were more expensive, also add 15-20 years of inflation. Those were really very expensive cars, also to run.

[TheFlyingTuga]

I think quite the same as you, in Spain Evos and Impreza were really common cars, especially Evos, and in last year them disapear in big numbers, becoming quite rare even in regional events that some years ago could have many.

For someone who raced in an Evo for the past 5 years, it's starting to get very difficult to get material for the cars, especially differentials and racing gearboxes. You can still find them around, but the price is very high. Also, most of the cars already had a big crash in their lifespan and you can only mend 15 years of materials to a certain extent.

[AnttiL]

S1600 were more expensive, also add 15-20 years of inflation. Those were really very expensive cars, also to run.

100 000 euros of 2001 is about 130 000 euros of 2020.

Also remember that S1600 cars were FWD.

As many of you have mentioned, will be interesting to see how the Rally3 cars will perform on tarmac. In last year's Tour de Corse the fastest JWRC driver was around 3-4 s/km behind the fastest RC2 driver.

[Sulland]

Give Rally3 a chance. I think it will fill a gap in the Rally pyramid. Looking at the Fiesta test car, and seeing how strong in torque, and low revs it runs on, it reminded me of a N4 car. Lets hpe it is very durable, so running costs are kept low!

But, I feel the cost of all FIA rally classes have jumped a class in performance and also purchase price. So maybe we need a Rally6 class for people wanting to try rally, and dont have the skills to use an older car, and maintain it themselves.

The old R1 Fiesta was bulletproof, the only thing people changed was tyres. The car just worked and worked.
Maybe Rally6 is needed in countries where the ASN have no will or skill to make a one make cup!!

[Kenneth]

I think something like Rally5-kit could be an answer. Some cheap and easy kit with that everyone would transform any civil car into FWD starter rally car. Ofcourse only if FIA can handle situation better than with R4 kits.

[Mirek]

I think something like Rally5-kit could be an answer. Some cheap and easy kit with that everyone would transform any civil car into FWD starter rally car. Ofcourse only if FIA can handle situation better than with R4 kits.

IMHO the basic level doesn't need to be FIA controlled at all. Nobody goes international with such cars (except for Renaud Bronkart). Therefore for me it makes sense to keep te entry level under national ASN governance.

[m-ast]

Have the N5 cars taken that place?

For some units yes, but not in the numbers of previous Evos, also most times N5 are used as rentals for one event, they are not so much reliable in my opinion and people don’t want to buy except there is a cup for them, last gravel champ round of the year only had one N5 competing

[Kenneth]

I 100 % agree, but Sulland was talking about cases where ASN are not competent and not willing to make entry level cup.

[Mirek]

FIA can not substitude the national ASN job. If the ASN is incompetent than there has to be an organized movement among the ASN members to replace the leadership. Easier said than done, I know, but FIA can not take care of that.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Can someone suggest who the first (type of) likely buyers are going to be for the Fiesta Rally3 ?

[Sulland]

100 000 euros of 2001 is about 130 000 euros of 2020.

Also remember that S1600 cars were FWD.

As many of you have mentioned, will be interesting to see how the Rally3 cars will perform on tarmac. In last year's Tour de Corse the fastest JWRC driver was around 3-4 s/km behind the fastest RC2 driver.

Is not the inflation from year 2000 to 2020 more than 30% in europe? In Norway it has been close to 50%.

[AnttiL]

Can someone suggest who the first (type of) likely buyers are going to be for the Fiesta Rally3 ?

That is a good question, since we don't yet have them eligible for any points in any series. Maybe people will have to wait for confirmation for where to run it in 2021 and how their current situation evolves (for example if they damage badly an old Evo or do well in a cup for Rally4 cars and plan to go further).

[Sulland]

We have to assume that national ASNs find a class for them inside their systems.

I see them as a possibility for young up and coming drivers, as well as people with no international ambition, but that want to drive a modern 4wd in the national series.
For this price today you can get an old and well used DS3, 208 and maybe a Fiesta Mk1, without all upgrades, and that will not fight for podiums.
Then it is better to have a brand new modern rallycar, and fight for wins in a tier 2 class.

I also hope that ERC finds a place for this class as ERC2, and I guess in WRC Rally3 will get its place.

Dirtfish have written a piece on it, and hopefully they are more or less right.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/fia-expects-rally3-to-emerge-as-top-level-in-multiple-series/

But lets wait and see. A lot will be answered when we see the car in a real rally, driven by a good driver in anger. And from what I have seen from the prototype, the 400nm will make it an easy car to drive. I hope we all will be impressed by how quick they are.

[Rally Power]

It won't be hard to have Rally3 in next year rally series, inside current classes or as a new one. The main doubt is on the final rules; when it was decided to extend the engine limit to 1620cm3 it was told that the restrictor would be seized according to the cars engine capacity but in June the FIA imposed a 30mm restrictor for all the cars. That hurts the cars with smaller engines and unless those can get a lower weigth it may be hard for manus like Peugeot or Renault to join Rally 3.

[Andre Oliveira]

Rally3 -> RC3
R3 -> RC4

[Mirek]

It won't be hard to have Rally3 in next year rally series, inside current classes or as a new one. The main doubt is on the final rules; when it was decided to extend the engine limit to 1620cm3 it was told that the restrictor would be seized according to the cars engine capacity but in June the FIA imposed a 30mm restrictor for all the cars. That hurts the cars with smaller engines and unless those can get a lower weigth it may be hard for manus like Peugeot or Renault to join Rally 3.

I have asked you already once. Why do you think that a bigger engine with the same small restrictor would have bigger power? IMHO it's opposite.

[Rally Power]

Come on mate, how can you believe that a 1.2L engine can match a 1.6L engine using the same restrictor? If engine capacity doesn't matter why don't we see manus building R5 cars with 1.2 or 1.3 engines?

[AnttiL]

Rally3 -> RC3
R3 -> RC4

Does the old R3 still exist in 2021?

[AnttiL]

Come on mate, how can you believe that a 1.2L engine can match a 1.6L engine using the same restrictor? If engine capacity doesn't matter why don't we see manus building R5 cars with 1.2 or 1.3 engines?

Difference is more in torque, not top power?

[dimviii]

Come on mate, how can you believe that a 1.2L engine can match a 1.6L engine using the same restrictor? If engine capacity doesn't matter why don't we see manus building R5 cars with 1.2 or 1.3 engines?

a bigger engine needs more air.The small restrictor from a smaller engine will not allow enough air ,to full its bigger cubic displacement.This engine will not rev as it has to rev,so yes depenting to how smaller the restrictor is,maybe has same or lower horsepower.
Horsepower is at upper revs,where the engine could not breath correctly due to smaller restrictor.
Torque will not affected so much,maybe not at all
All these can happen when the restrictor is way to small for the bigger engine at our example.

[Rally Power]

Yep, I can understand that when using a small restrictor the engine capacity difference won't be so damaging, but it'll always be noticed, both in power and torque. That's why weight classes are needed.

[m-ast]

Does the old R3 still exist in 2021?

DS3 has homologation until 2022, and Clio until 2025

[pantealex]

Does the old R3 still exist in 2021?

Yes.

FIA Hologation is still valid.

[Mirek]

Come on mate, how can you believe that a 1.2L engine can match a 1.6L engine using the same restrictor? If engine capacity doesn't matter why don't we see manus building R5 cars with 1.2 or 1.3 engines?

IMHO that's wrong and illogical comparison because R5 cars have larger restrictor for such cylinder capacity (21% larger). If they would run smaller restrictor it's possible the teams would select smaller engines because for every air quantity there is an ideal engine size. Otherwise if bigger engine would be always better it would make sense to run 6 litre V12 with 30 mm restrictor. That is obviously a nonsense. You loose power at high rpm because you can't fill the larger chamber with enough air. With bigger engines everything is heavier you loose power by accelerating the inertia of the heavier parts, in larger friction areas, with more oil inside etc. There is no point to have larger engine than necessary.

Of course we have to take into account other factors which speak for selecting larger engines for R5 such as reliability (since they use stock engines), cooling (since they use stock engines) or large enough valves (since they use stock engine and can't enlarge its cylinder diameter) but all these three factors goes down with smaller restrictor.

Another factor is level of turbo boost. With R5 it's given and same for all. With Rally3 it looks like they don't run on the same given maximum level. Maybe Br21 can add somethign here.

[Jeppe]

I think you added enough ;)

[Rally Power]

IMHO that's wrong and illogical comparison because R5 cars have larger restrictor for such cylinder capacity (21% larger).

How can R5 32mm restrictor be 21% larger than Rally3 30mm restrictor?

[Mirek]

How can R5 32mm restrictor be 21% larger than Rally3 30mm restrictor?

Sorry, my bad. It's 14%. For some reason I counted with 33 mm.

[Rally Power]

Sorry, my bad. It's 14%. For some reason I counted with 33 mm.

I was hoping you'd get it wrong again…;)

Honestly, I wish you and the others are right on this matter, but I’ll only be convinced when Peugeot and Renault present their cars; with so many ups and downs on Rally3 rules and having R4-Kit fiasco in mind, one wonders if the FIA really know what it’s doing.

Btw, it seems that Rally3/4 and 5 can also get a mild hybrid kit, just like Rally2. https://www.rallye-magazin.de/wrc/artikel/elektrifizierung-bis-in-die-kleinen-klassen-45462/

[Sulland]

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/season-2020/wrc-3/fiesta-rally3--view-from-the-inside/

They are saying; The Fiesta Rally3 will be available in January next year.
Was'nt the original plan to homologate 1st march?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Any chance of the GR Yaris becoming a Rally3 car ?

Or Rally2 like the AP4 car that's been developed in Australia. Are the Regs much different ?

It looks great:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/how-the-toyota-gr-yaris-2021-debuts-been-saved-down-under/

[TheFlyingTuga]

Any chance of the GR Yaris becoming a Rally3 car ?

Or Rally2 like the AP4 car that's been developed in Australia. Are the Regs much different ?

It looks great:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/how-the-toyota-gr-yaris-2021-debuts-been-saved-down-under/

Probably a Rally3 for sure. And it would be a great contender. For Rally2 it is still on the pland

[Rally Power]

Any chance of the GR Yaris becoming a Rally3 car ?
Or Rally2 like the AP4 car that's been developed in Australia.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/toyota-set-expand-rally-car-line-up-into-rally2-and-rally3/

[Steve Boyd]

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/season-2020/wrc-3/fiesta-rally3--view-from-the-inside/

They are saying; The Fiesta Rally3 will be available in January next year.
Was'nt the original plan to homologate 1st march?

It doesn't actually have to be homologated before it's sold - or at least orders taken for future delivery. The cars could be sold and used on National or lower status events before homologation by FIA. Once homologated they can be used on international rallies.

[Co-driven]

Are these Rally3 cars cost-capped like the R5 (and I presume Rally2)?

Also specific parts have these cost limits?

[Mirek]

I think they are.

[Andre Oliveira]

Nil Solans in Sardinia

https://twitter.com/gianluca_sanna_/status/1338899924268756996?s=21

[Andre Oliveira]

In the European Rally Championship, the ERC Junior class will be reserved for drivers entered with Rally3 cars, with the objective to reduce season costs and create a more accessible pathway for young drivers coming from two-wheel drive categories. In order to ease this pathway, the FIA ERC promoter will offer attractive prizes for both the ERC3 and ERC Junior Champions.




Let's start :)

[Sulland]

Now that Rally3 have been awarded a kickstart from ERC next season.

How many cars will we see competing in the first rally in May?
Will we see more brands than Ford in 2021 for the new class?

[Andre Oliveira]

I heard the first 20 cars are reserved to ERC crews and ready to delivered in month of March.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ford RS Owners Club:

Imagine a rally car that’s road legal !
If a 4WD Ford Fiesta R3 was in the pipeline, would you be interested in purchasing ?

We would like to take the opportunity to thank M-Sport for talking with us and asking the RSOC to gain insights from its members about a potential future release.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eq-d0vcVoAAc6a5?format=jpg&name=large

[Sulland]

So why could Toyota not use the GR Yaris as the starting point for a Rally3 project?
Ford uses a 3 cyl 1500, and Toypta has a 1600 3 cyl engine.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_G16E_engine#G16E-GTS

[Mirek]

So why could Toyota not use the GR Yaris as the starting point for a Rally3 project?
Ford uses a 3 cyl 1500, and Toypta has a 1600 3 cyl engine.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_G16E_engine#G16E-GTS

They don't have unlimited capacities. You need dozens of people not working on something else and around two years of hard work to get a good a car going.

[Sulland]

Maybe, but they have used many manhours on the GR Yaris, testing it. Not specifically for rally, but instead of starting from scratch.

Think of the PR the car will get. You can actually with a full rally-kit by GR, take it into the forrest!
Of course not as a Rally3, but more a cupcar.

But Toyota is a big organisation, they should be able to make a Rally3 car quite fast, and have it ready for sale in November 2021.

[Mirek]

Sulland, try to think real a little bit. Things don't just appear. There is a hell of work and that work must be done by someone. Maybe Toyota will come with Rally3 car but for sure they can't work on everything in the same time (maybe better to say they can but in that case the product would be rubbish).

[Sulland]

Sulland, try to think real a little bit. Things don't just appear. There is a hell of work and that work must be done by someone. Maybe Toyota will come with Rally3 car but for sure they can't work on everything in the same time (maybe better to say they can but in that case the product would be rubbish).

I am trying to. Toyota has its WRC team moving into a new HQ in Finland
Mäkinen taking back his farm. Not quite clear yet what TMR will have in the future, if any.

But Toyota also have the German team of 300+ people. Toyota pulled out of LMP1 in WEC, that was their pri 1 job. So they could help getting the Rally3 program up to speed, maybe with Tommi in a role.

Others that did not make it in the R5 competition, Mistsubishi and Proton could downgrade them to Rally3, and giving Ford some competition!

[Tarmop]

LMP1 is transitioning into Hypercar class. Toyota is developing that. I see no changes in there.

Proton and Mitsubishi aren`t factory supported projects if i remember correctly. Or if they are, less than M-Sport and Ford. Re-developing a R5 into R3 takes a load of money....which isn`t easy to find.

[pantealex]

I am trying to. Toyota has its WRC team moving into a new HQ in Finland
Mäkinen taking back his farm. Not quite clear yet what TMR will have in the future, if any.

But Toyota also have the German team of 300+ people. Toyota pulled out of LMP1 in WEC, that was their pri 1 job. So they could help getting the Rally3 program up to speed, maybe with Tommi in a role.



Toyota/TGR Germany is now running that Rally project (yes the same one which Tommi was leading)
Factory will stay in Jyväskylä because of testing possibilities, but HQ is in Cologne, Germany.

[Mirek]

But Toyota also have the German team of 300+ people. Toyota pulled out of LMP1 in WEC, that was their pri 1 job. So they could help getting the Rally3 program up to speed, maybe with Tommi in a role.

Even if you have hundreds of people dedicated to rally it means you need to take away number of them from WRC project and relocate them to Rally3. In the end it means you sacrifice something you could add to WRC and that may cost you the title because your opponents don't sleep but work as hard as they can. Especially the number of leading people in the development (technical managers, team leaders) is very limited. Such people are of rare qualities (and also huge price) and you don't have hundreds of them, not even dozens. Nobody does. And without them you develop a crappy car.

[Sulland]

So if the cost of 2 x Rally2 rallies equals cost of 6 x Rally3 rallies in ERC, the Rally3 rental cost is 1/3 of the rent of a Rally2 car.

That is quite a difference, and should make the intro of Rally3 cars much easier.
And if The rally3 class gets big, and gets good talented drivers, it will fill its pupose as a good gapfiller, amd introclass to 4wd!

[wyler]

btw a variety of Yaris GR versions are popping up as private projects. that's for Japan championship, not much info, it appears to be 3 cylinder, 1600cc, 260bhp, AWD
https://www.tuttipazziperilmotorsport.it/wellpine-motorsport-svela-la-sua-nuova-creatura/?fbclid=IwAR2nQigInco4IikZ0ibllFY9sqkac6Ouohboh7XA AaAo5uEUiFxyEJnwBZ0

[dupanton]

So if the cost of 2 x Rally2 rallies equals cost of 6 x Rally3 rallies in ERC, the Rally3 rental cost is 1/3 of the rent of a Rally2 car.

That is quite a difference, and should make the intro of Rally3 cars much easier.
And if The rally3 class gets big, and gets good talented drivers, it will fill its pupose as a good gapfiller, amd introclass to 4wd!

I don't think it will be that cheap. I think 1/3 of Rally2 budget will get you a Rally4 rather than a Rally3

[Sulland]

Ok, so a good guesstimate will be that Rally3 is somewhere btw 40 and 50% of the cost of a Rally2 season in ERC, both with 6 rallies?

We will know after the first couple of rallies, since I am guessing that M-Sport Pol will rent out Rally 3 Fiestas.

[Mirek]

Sulland, it's not one sided game of costs. As you get higher in the overal standings you also get to better sponsorship deals because sponsors simply want to be exposed. Therefore you can't simply take running cost of a Rally2 car and compare it with running costs of Rally3 car because for both of them you are most likely unable to secure the same sponsorship deals.

[Sulland]

Probably true Mirek.
But I am just trying to understand the figures on "ish" running costs for the two 4wd classes. The price you as a driver would have to pay to drive a full ERC series.

[Sulland]

With Rally4 prices from 70k, the 100k for a Rally3 seems like a good deal.

[Sulland]

Has anything leaked out on the 4wd system chosen for the Fiesta, or has Fia said anything on tech regs for that system?

Do anyone know more on the 4wd system on Rally3 compared to the Rally2 cars?
Is it simpler than on the Rally2 ?

[Mirek]

Do anyone know more on the 4wd system on Rally3 compared to the Rally2 cars?
Is it simpler than on the Rally2 ?

It can not be any simpler.

To your question - it's basically the same thing.

[br21]

Yes, just components are smaller.
Next week Msport organizes drive days with their new Rally3 so more details should be known.

[Sulland]

Yes, just components are smaller.
Next week Msport organizes drive days with their new Rally3 so more details should be known.

Is this by invitation only, have any info gotten out on this happening?

[br21]

yes, sure, especially nowdays during pandemic times all is by invitation, etc

[Tom K]

I would not expect many details to be shown, but maybe drivers' comments will be useful.

[Sulland]

I am guessing Ken Torn, and others that har ordered cars for ERC use will be first in line, together with the ones used for testing the car before.
Maybe also som key buyers/teams from around the world that have said they would like to give rally3 a go in national series.

I think MSport will sell more than they thought of this one in 2021.

[br21]

I know someone who will be there, so I will let you know:)

[dimviii]

https://twitter.com/Kajto_pl/status/1354863259514515456

[HKSjbg]

It could be a trick of the camera angles but that looks a lot more exciting than the idea of a 4WD car with the same power and torque but more weight than a Rally4 car suggests. I’m looking forward to seeing some of these compete

[Sulland]

Sounds positiv!

From Rallye-Magazine.de
In german: https://www.rallye-magazin.de/int/artikel/latvala-toyota-gr-yaris-fuer-kundensport-45976/

Text;
Jari-Matti Latvala has passed his baptism of fire as the new Toyota team boss. In Monte Carlo, Sebastien Ogier and Elfyn Evans gave their new boss a double victory at the start. "A great result to start the season," said the Finn happily.
But from now on Latvala is not only responsible for continuing the successful work of his predecessor Tommi Mäkinen in the World Rally Championship, as an enthusiastic rally driver and owner of a historic Toyota Celica, he also wants to ensure that the brand also celebrates successes in other classes in the future . The focus is on the newly created Rally3 category.
"The way I see it, the new Rally3 seems to be the more interesting category than the Rally2 and could build on the success of the near-series Group N," Latvala told Motorsport aktuell.
So far, only M-Sport has presented a corresponding model. (https://www.rallye-magazin.de/schlagzeilen/artikel/m-sport-stellt-fiesta-rally3-vor-grundpreis-99999-euro-45394/)The 99,999 euros (plus VAT) Ford Fiesta Rally3 is powered by a 1.5 liter turbo three-cylinder with 215 hp and 400 Nm torque, which comes from the Fiesta ST road vehicle. The power is portioned by a sequential five-speed gearbox. With these ingredients, the 1,210 kilo all-wheel drive accelerates to 100 km / h in five seconds.
After the WRC of Rally3?
Latvala has also taken a closer look at the Fiesta Rally3 and will be watching carefully how M-Sport's order books fill up. “With the GR Yaris, Toyota has the perfect basis for a high-performance customer sport model,” says Latvala, who can well imagine being active in this category as well. “But right now we have to concentrate on developing the 2022 World Rally Car with hybrid. But we still have an eye on customer racing. Either way, something could happen by 2023. "

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EtKM1wlWMAAE8LO?format=jpg&name=large

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Jon Armstrong was VERY positive about the Fiesta Rally3.

https://twitter.com/msportpoland/status/1356547780995649538?s=20

[Andre Oliveira]

Pics by Łukasz Byśkiniewicz

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EtQNkpxXYAA0W_c?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EtQNkp2XEAEoZg9?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EtQNkp5XEAUTaxg?format=jpg&name=medium

[Sulland]

Will we get some test videos from Poland?

[Tom K]

My colleague is working for M-Sport Poland within these 3 days, so probably the will published something.

[br21]

Yes, there was video crew, but don't expect anything more than what you saw before. Gravel stage was same like on Kajetanowicz video from few day ago, tarmac section was not that special and customers drove, so really nobody was pushing hard.

[Sulland]

Many potential customers present in Poland?
Have they actually sold 20 cars to ERC teams/drivers or just a few?

Are there people from customers to national series as well?

[AnttiL]

https://twitter.com/msportpoland/status/1357036547950981122?s=21

[Andre Oliveira]

Many potential customers present in Poland?
Have they actually sold 20 cars to ERC teams/drivers or just a few?

Are there people from customers to national series as well?

I heard that the first units are reserved to ERC. 2 portuguese reserved to national championship.

[dupanton]

Belgian team My Hub has ordered 1, should be delivered in April they said.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

GR4 YARIS RALLY3
Jari-Matti Latvala, new team principal, confirmed that the GR4 Yaris will be the base model of all Toyota cars starting in 2022:

“The new four-wheel drive Yaris GR4 will become the next generation WRC car. We also have the ability to produce the car in other categories. This is something Toyota is currently considering, but no final decision has been made. It would be quick and easy to transform the GR Yaris into a Rally2 and Rally3 class car ".

Having ascertained that in 2022 the hybrid Rally1 will be a GR4 Yaris, Latvala spoke of the lower class cars, focusing attention on the Rally3 category:

“The way I see it, the new Rally3 appears to be a more interesting category than Rally2 and could build on the success of Group N close to production models. Something could move in 2023”.

[br21]

there are no reservations, you want to buy, you pay and you collect the car, still possible to get it in March.

[Andre Oliveira]

Better.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://youtu.be/wrpa2sve5_A

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EtZpMkUXUAUVpvo?format=jpg&name=large

[Jarek Z]

Many potential customers present in Poland?
Have they actually sold 20 cars to ERC teams/drivers or just a few?

Are there people from customers to national series as well?

Answers to some of your questions as well as some photos and videos can be found at https://pl.motorsport.com/wrc/news/diabelek-rodem-z-krakowa/ (sorry, article in Polish only).

There were as many as 50 drivers participating in the test session. Maciej Woda (M-Sport Poland) says that they have 200 customers already interested in this car.

[Sulland]

From what I saw in the different videos released from the mega-test in Poland. it looks like a good gapfiller btw Rally2 and 4, also budgetwise.

I am guessing many of the testers are chasing budget to ride a Rally3 Fiesta this year.

If Homologated 1 March, they need to start to show off what it can do in different rallies.
I was hoping they could run it as coursecar in Arctic Rally, but maybe too late.

What did the drivers interviewed in the Motossport.com video say (Kaperczyk and Wroblewski)