New R3 car - Think tank

[Sulland]

The current R3 class is dead when it comes to new cars.

National/ Regional championships need a simple 4wd class that people can afford to buy and run on a smaller budget than the current 4wd classes.

Could we use the 1333 ccm turboengine as is in R3 today, and add 4wd or should one start from another base?

[Mirek]

What is this thread good for? You keep mixing things which don't belong together. R3 is not 4WD and R3 doesn't use 1,33 turbo engines and never has been using them.

R3 uses 1,6 turbo engines and by adding them 4WD You basically get R4 which already exists.

[tommeke_B]

Maybe start a thread about R1 too, we haven't seen new R1 cars for a while either. Maybe those could be 4WD too...

[Sulland]

Well it depends on the eye that looks, and what perspective you choose to see from.

My perspective has always been the drivers/co-drivers, and possibilities for talemts to evolve.
I have never cared much for the car manufacturers. Normally every time they come in, the cost rises dramatically, and a few years later fewer and fewer get budgets to participate. WRC and WRX are splendid examples.

Not sure how many DS3s and Clios that has been buildt in 2018, but in WRC and ERC R3 is not very large anymore.

No mistake, I love the "rodents" (fwd), I still go to youtube to watch "best of Jean Ragnotti", and watching the R2 fights in WRC and nationally is always cool. The best way of learning car control is via Fwd.

But when a class is no longer supported with a drivers title, people look elsewhere.

And most agree with that the cost step btw R2 and 4wd classes is too large. So many talents falls off their career ladder in rally, and moves to other forms of motorsport, or quits all together.

The newest addition to R3 from FIA is the R3C T, up to 1333. I guess FIA have checked the possibilities in the market and found this to be the correct volume for new R3s. Or it was chosen by random in an office!? Who knows with them.

This list from Wikipedia is not 100%, since the Clio R3t is missing, and maybe more.


RC3
R3T
Up to 1620cc
Turbocharged
Petrol
1080 kg
Two-wheel drive
2500 per year
WRC-3 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rally_Championship-3), JWRC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_World_Rally_Championship)
Citroën DS3 R3T (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DS_3)[8] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_R#cite_note-MC_initial_entry_list-8)


R3C
1600cc to 2000cc
Naturally aspirated
Petrol
1080 kg
Two-wheel drive
2500 per year
WRC-3 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rally_Championship-3)
Renault Clio R3C (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Clio)


1067cc to 1333cc
Turbocharged
none


R3D
Up to 2000cc
Supercharged
Diesel
1150 kg
Two-wheel drive
2500 per year
Fiat Grande Punto R3D (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Grande_Punto)


But WRC3 is dead, and ERC this year used N4 as their ERC2. That might be R4 next year.

So maybe it could be a possibility for FiA to make a generic simple 4wd framework for any tuner to add to the R3T, and to use the 1333 ccm option for that. Not to mix with 1,6 R3T, but could of course also be 1,6t engines since they could be bought today.

If you ask drivers, many would like a shot at driving 4wd, but can not find the budget. Not all drivers with large talent have comtacts with large wallets, but they still need a possibility.

that could be a nice national or even regional class for people to start to compete in 4wd, to fill the hole after N4.

[tommeke_B]

The best way of learning car control is via Fwd.
I've never ever heard a driver or co-driver say that... In fact I heard the opposite, that it's not because you're fast in a FWD car, you will be also quick in a 4WD car...

[Mirek]

The newest addition to R3 from FIA is the R3C T, up to 1333. I guess FIA have checked the possibilities in the market and found this to be the correct volume for new R3s. Or it was chosen by random in an office!? Who knows with them.

It makes absolutely no sense. R3C and R3T run in the same class and whatever under 1,62T could have been homologated as R3T for ages and there is near zero reason to do so except if it shall be a one-make cup car.


So maybe it could be a possibility for FiA to make a generic simple 4wd framework for any tuner to add to the R3T, and to use the 1333 ccm option for that.

Just why? Nearly nobody cares about R3T, nearly nobody cares about R4. Why shall anyone care about another hybrid between these two? Where is any logic?

[Franky]

Why not just get rid of R1, R3 and R4? In national championships you can drive whatever basically and for international ones you'd have current R2 for FWD, R5 as the cheap 4WD and WRC as the crazy expensive nearly unreachable pinnacle class.

[Mirek]

I agree with You. It's what came out of the experience anyway. The FIA classes which clearly work are these You mentioned - R2, R5, WRC. So why not to get rid of the rest and let national ASN decide what they want on the national level (most do that already anyway). They know local conditions better than FIA guys somewhere in Paris after all. You brought a good question - why do we need more international classes?

[pantealex]

Answer from Riku Tahko when discussion was used R5 has same price than new R4

"Price is around that but if you count together some of the universal parts in motorsport like transmission, electrics, suspension and engine you can really (most cars use same suppliers) you can't go much cheaper than when building a modern rally car."

Some people here in forum just doesn´t understand that certain components have about same price, no matter which car you built.
When you use standard parts, your car will not last.
It just isn´t possible to do cheap reliable car.

I also kind of think that R5 and R2 are enough for FIA events (+WRC for WRC events) and national series can have national rules.

[Franky]

Had another thought. If there would only be the three classes (R2, R5 and WRC) at international events, then not to lose the lazy development of R4 and the growing number of protos, maybe a class that would be called like 'Amateur' or sth and would have more loose rules for those who would like to build the 4WD car themselves? No separate championship or title for it tho.

[Rallyper]

I've never ever heard a driver or co-driver say that... In fact I heard the opposite, that it's not because you're fast in a FWD car, you will be also quick in a 4WD car...

Two different things.

Learning to handle a rallycar, you need to do a lot of practising. Best way is to do competiton in village events. Learning to handle can (should) be made in 2WD cars in the beginning. RWD and FWD doesn´t matter much. If you have talent and before you step up to 4WD the best way is always doing FWD for a while.

[Mirek]

Had another thought. If there would only be the three classes (R2, R5 and WRC) at international events, then not to lose the lazy development of R4 and the growing number of protos, maybe a class that would be called like 'Amateur' or sth and would have more loose rules for those who would like to build the 4WD car themselves? No separate championship or title for it tho.

It actually already partially works. If I'm not mistaken the regionally homologated Maxi cars from South America, New Zealand or Australia are allowed in WRC events. This rule for the moment applies only for events outside of Europe. If it works there it must work in Europe too.

[dodge33cymru]

It actually already partially works. If I'm not mistaken the regionally homologated Maxi cars from South America, New Zealand or Australia are allowed in WRC events. This rule for the moment applies only for events outside of Europe. If it works there it must work in Europe too.

Pretty sure it's allowed in Europe too, there were several N5 cars running in WRC Spain.


To me, R3 has become redundant whilst R2 is healthy. If there's a need for a more powerful 2WD category, then RGT is it IMO. If there's a need for a less powerful 4WD category, then NR4 and R4 should be it; we'll see what happens there.

[pantealex]

Each WRC event can decide which national cars they take, RallyFinland had list of accepted cars (old N and S2000 for 2018 event)

[Rally Power]

Answer from Riku Tahko when discussion was used R5 has same price than new R4

"Price is around that but if you count together some of the universal parts in motorsport like transmission, electrics, suspension and engine you can really (most cars use same suppliers) you can't go much cheaper than when building a modern rally car."

Some people here in forum just doesn´t understand that certain components have about same price, no matter which car you built.
When you use standard parts, your car will not last.
It just isn´t possible to do cheap reliable car.


R4 main components (transmission, suspension, brakes, steering, etc)* are rally purposed built, just like in R5. The bigger difference is on the engine, which it’s closer to stock specs than in R5 (although it uses the same block from DS3/208 R5’s). Besides a more basic engine, the price difference between a R4 and a R5 is mainly due to the fact that it’s built by affordable private tuners, instead of overpriced manus competition departments; this will also mean less expensive rebuilds over the seasons.

Somehow, R4 is a sort of R5 Light that could become a more reasonable alternative to old Evo’s and Impreza’s than used R5’s. Unfortunately, the FIA and Oreca are failing to give R4 a proper promotion.

*https://www.oreca.com/en/manufacturer/fia-r4-kit/

[Mirek]

How do You define that something is overpriced?

The hardest struggle in R5 development is to follow the price caps defined for number of certain parts and the complete car as a whole. Selling R5 cars alone really isn't any gold mine. The profit comes mostly from after-sale service but the car as it is built is not something overpriced. It's high performance product made of high performance parts and its price is corresponding.

[Rally Power]

Yep, I know you can't admit any critic on R5 (probably, the 8th wonder of the world) but asking over 250k for a not that complex 4wd rally car is overpriced, no matter who builds it.

Anyway, the point here is that R4 (which technically isn't that far from R5) is now a less expensive option for privateers; it's up to the FIA, Oreca and its partners to give R4 a push, as it deserves.

[Mirek]

The full spec. Fabia costs around 230 thousand (base car costs 190 thousand). That's a real price and it's not much more than of the R4 (the top S2000 in their days costed 100 thousand more). Such price is fully corresponding with what they are built from. There is no alternative design available anywhere which would be reasonably cheaper and allowed similar performance, reliability and serviceability.

Of course R5 isn't any 8th wonder of the world but it's something which absolutely does work and which is very successful both in sporting and economical point of view - unlike far majority of other FIA-defined cars. Give Mr. Goldstein & co. some credit for creating the best set of rules we have seen in several decades.

[Rally Power]

I don't need to give any extra credit as I've always praised R5, with just one exception: its price.

Anyway, if that Fabia value is correct, it's still 70 to 80k more than R4 expected prices. That's a lot for a privateer. Once R4 are also cheaper to maintain (no need for factory expensive rebuilds) why can't we have both offers, once they're not even direct competitors? Yours 'R5 or nothing' view is really hard to understand.

[Mirek]

Anyway, if that Fabia value is correct, it's still 70 to 80k more than R4 expected prices.

Good luck building an R4 for 150 thousand Euro.

You also tend to compare price of the cheapest possible package on one side and the most expensive package on the other side which makes no sense whatsoever because even the most expensive R4 package shall be slower than the cheapest R5 package and those two cost +/- the same (even omitting still faster second-hand R5).


That's a lot for a privateer. Once R4 are also cheaper to maintain (no need for factory expensive rebuilds) why can't we have both offers, once they're not even direct competitors?

As I said already before. There is a massive difference between what You can spend for fighting on the overall podium or somewhere in lower class. It doesn't make sense to build a bit cheaper car which can't fight with the a bit more expensive option because it's easier to find money for the more expensive package which brings better results and more media exposure (at least in most countries). You can not operate with a premisse than You can get always the same money from the sponsors regardless Your results in overall standings. You can be a thousand times winner in R3 class but You will most likely never get sponsor money as the ever fifth guy in overall standings.

And that's exactly why in Europe there is very little interest in R4. There is an option which is faster, proven to be working and reliable and doesn't cost much more. It's really not very rational to invest into some experiments which may save some dozens of thousand Euro but will certainly bring worse results. If we take into account that there are literally tons of second-hand R5 everywhere it makes even less sense.


Yours 'R5 or nothing' view is really hard to understand.

I have never said R5 only. I don't care if R4 exists because it is a good option for overseas areas with crazy import fee for factory-built cars (as explained by our overseas members before) but I see no reason why I (as a common customer) shall invest into R4 in Europe. The only reason to do so is if Your sponsor is an importer of a brand which doesn't have R5. But such case is driven neither by cost, nor by performance.

And why I am so active in threads like this? Because some our members keep dreaming about some magical formula which will cost like an R2 car but will basically be an R4.

[Rally Power]

And why I am so active in threads like this? Because some our members keep dreaming about some magical formula which will cost like an R2 car but will basically be an R4.

Anyone is free to dream but R4 it’s not a dream, it’s a reality and the market will decide if it’s viable, not you or me. As a rally fan I’m happy that R4 can provide privateers a larger choice of 4wd cars and private tuners can get more work with it; it’s also an opportunity to attract some brands that left the sport and others that still haven’t try it, which seems great.

Will it work? Time will tell. For now I can only hope the FIA will be reasonable enough to put R4 on a separate class from R5 and Oreca gets a bit more active promoting it; an Oreca sponsored R4 Cup in the ERC, using different models, could be a nice way to do it.

[pantealex]

I have nothing against R4, those are welcomed to rallies.

But I´m worried, it was homologated January 1st and less than 5 have been built. I think every other FIA what ever R car have sold more than that in first year.
Every european country are still building their own non fia 4wd, not FIA R4.

Like I have told before: In Finland R4 is in same class than Impreza/Lancer (N4) , still only 1 R4 is coming and same time 15 Proto 4wd have been sold and those Proto cars are NOT accepted in Finnish championship for point scoring.

[Rally Power]

Every european country are still building their own non fia 4wd, not FIA R4.
Like I have told before: In Finland R4 is in same class than Impreza/Lancer (N4) , still only 1 R4 is coming and same time 15 Proto 4wd have been sold and those Proto cars are NOT accepted in Finnish championship for point scoring.

That proves there’s a demand for less expensive 4wd cars; the FIA took a long time to get it and Oreca hasn't been able to make a proper promotion of the R4.

If R4 faills, the opportuny of a single worldwide 4wd entry class will be lost; it’s hard to believe the FIA will care to match nacional 4wd protos under a common rule.