Return of Rough Rallies - Are the Cars Ready?

[MentalParadox]

The return of Turkey to the calendar marks the return of rough endurance-style rallies like Cyprus and Acropolis in the old days. In 2020, we're likely going to get the Safari back. We've seen in this edition of Turkey that many cars just break down, even without having really hit anything. They just seem to fall apart.

Have the modern WRC cars become too fragile from years of running a championship without rough rallies? Will manufacturers have to update their cars to survive in future seasons, when we might have two or maybe even three of these rougher rallies?

[deephouse]

Have they not talked about decreasing lenght of stages or even decreasing lenght of rally itself? Here they break most on the marathon ones, right.

[MentalParadox]

Not sure I like the sound of that. But I suppose it's better than their plans for the Safari. I heard they want to replace all the awesome savanna 'roads' with clean, manicured roads on private property. Rough gravel sections, gone. Natural watersplashes, gone. That's not the Safari I wanted. I guess I prefer shorter rallies if it means preserving the spirit of the rallies.

[Mirek]

The return of Turkey to the calendar marks the return of rough endurance-style rallies like Cyprus and Acropolis in the old days. In 2020, we're likely going to get the Safari back. We've seen in this edition of Turkey that many cars just break down, even without having really hit anything. They just seem to fall apart.

Have the modern WRC cars become too fragile from years of running a championship without rough rallies? Will manufacturers have to update their cars to survive in future seasons, when we might have two or maybe even three of these rougher rallies?

Why everyone speaks only about WRC cars when there is only a small minority of them in the entry lists (roughly between 1/10 and 1/3 of all cars)? It's the WRC cars and the works teams which can cope with such stages the best. For others it's much harder.

[the sniper]

Why everyone speaks only about WRC cars when there is only a small minority of them in the entry lists (roughly between 1/10 and 1/3 of all cars)? It's the WRC cars and the works teams which can cope with such stages the best. For others it's much harder.

I would imagine the vast majority of non WRC car entries on a reborn Safari rally would come from local guys who are used to those conditions in the Kenyan championship. Given that WRC2 doesn't require competitors to do anywhere near every round, and I doubt the Safari will be in the JWRC, nobody will be forced to take part if they don't want to.

As MentalParadox says though, if the candidate event is representative of the final event, I don't think the roads will be as rough as we saw in Turkey. The problem will be the much higher speeds involved.

Having two rougher rallies kind of works nicely with the twinning of events for chassis. Might make a more 'endurance' spec car make sense.

[steve.mandzij]

I would imagine the vast majority of non WRC car entries on a reborn Safari rally would come from local guys who are used to those conditions in the Kenyan championship. Given that WRC2 doesn't require competitors to do anywhere near every round, and I doubt the Safari will be in the JWRC, nobody will be forced to take part if they don't want to.

As MentalParadox says though, if the candidate event is representative of the final event, I don't think the roads will be as rough as we saw in Turkey. The problem will be the much higher speeds involved.

Having two rougher rallies kind of works nicely with the twinning of events for chassis. Might make a more 'endurance' spec car make sense.If endurance type cars make a return I'll be fully supportive of the rougher events

[Zeakiwi]

How many SUVs have an FIA homologation? Could T2 production suvs be allowed to enter wrc 'rough' events?

[Jarek Z]

Why everyone speaks only about WRC cars when there is only a small minority of them in the entry lists (roughly between 1/10 and 1/3 of all cars)? It's the WRC cars and the works teams which can cope with such stages the best. For others it's much harder.

Yeah, exactly! Why does everyone speak about WRC cars only? For whom is this new rough rally going to be? For those 12 WRC cars from works teams?!

[Tarmop]

How many SUVs have an FIA homologation? Could T2 production suvs be allowed to enter wrc 'rough' events?

A completely new car for 2 events? SUVs are anyway more urban than some roadcars, so no big difference there.

[Sub_Skoda]

This is WRC! It's good to see an event like Turkey. I remember my childhood with Safari, Cyprus, Greece...
Who won Turkey'18? The most fragile cars! Like Latvala said you have to be clever and patient in a rally like this one. And Tänak said "I knew that it won't be the fastest driver who win this rally".
Ogier, Neuville, to maximum attack.
Pontus Tidemand, also.
Check Henning's race, with an R5. Or Begkvist's one. No trouble. A clean race. No maximum push.

The question is :"Are drivers ready?" not "Are the cars ready?" ;)

[denkimi]

Why everyone speaks only about WRC cars when there is only a small minority of them in the entry lists (roughly between 1/10 and 1/3 of all cars)? It's the WRC cars and the works teams which can cope with such stages the best. For others it's much harder.
This.

Rally's like these most of all show the difference between the drivers with a small budget who have to take care for their car, and drivers who can afford to mash and rebuild them every service and rally.

[AnttiL]

Not sure I like the sound of that. But I suppose it's better than their plans for the Safari. I heard they want to replace all the awesome savanna 'roads' with clean, manicured roads on private property. Rough gravel sections, gone. Natural watersplashes, gone. That's not the Safari I wanted.

Go see yourself from the 2018 event https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbWa0dhVqhw

It's still rough all right

[Oliverk]

Go see yourself from the 2018 event https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbWa0dhVqhw

It's still rough all right

Looks like average speed 160+ if dryish

[AnttiL]

Looks like average speed 160+ if dryish

True, I was also concerned over the fast-looking roads on https://itgetsfasternow.wordpress.com/2018/06/23/the-return-of-the-safari/t earlier this year. There's straights over a kilometre long and they were doing some stages already 120 km/h on the private Mitsubishi Evo's.

[AndyRAC]

Go and watch The Greatest Years of Rallying......

Too many people think 2 and a bit days of 'flat out' action is rallying. It's not. The WRC is meant to be the supreme test of man & machine over a variety of surfaces throughout the year from dawn to dusk. Somewhere in the last 15+ years it's been lost, and what we have, whilst still exciting, is WRC-Lite.
I'd actually like to see Turkey run an extra day. At the moment, they're running an Endurance-style event over a sprint distance. Some events need to be more than the normal 2 and a bit day WRC event. However, I wouldn't make the rough events count for JWRC,
I want the Safari back - but not if it's going to be just another event. It has to be a full 3-4 day event. It would be like running Le Mans over 6 Hours on the Bugatti circuit. If the Promoters can't allow some events 'freedom' to suit their event, then they're not doing their job properly.

I know most people will disagree, but I couldn't care less; I've watched enough sport/ motorsport over the years to know what's going on - and the WRC still isn't anywhere near hitting it's potential.

[Tarmop]

But what is the point, when there`s no car left in the end? And all the time talking about reducing costs, then make teams spend more money for one or two events.
Then we have R5-s. Same story, except they are built for profit and mostly sold to privateers in national championships also, where there is no need for such a tough car. It is too expensive and many can`t afford it now, so developing it to these kind of events would probably mean that a customer needing it for smooth gravel and tarmac events would pay for that development, resulting in another dead circle.

[N.O.T]

I know most people will disagree, but I couldn't care less; I've watched enough sport/ motorsport over the years to know what's going on

that is the main problem with you and your kind... you have watched enough but never developed the brain to understand what you are watching... you are stuck in the 70s and 80s and the only reason you want these ridiculous events and formats back is to satisfy your autism...

The calendar has enough rough rallies in sardignia and portugal... turkey was not a rough event, turkey was an event where you traveled through stones and hoped that your car would hit the stones at a proper angle so it would not puncture or break...

the event was won by a person who after the first 3 stages was saying this in not our rally...

those events do not belong in the WRC... they belong in the museums and the history books along with their autistic supporters...

The only event that has a place in the WRC is the safari only in its pure format which is different and cars can have special regulations to tackle it...

[Jarek Z]

In my opinion this is not normal:

https://www.wrc.com/images//News/2018/September2018/14670_527_896x504.jpg?

[Rallyper]

In my opinion this is not normal:

https://www.wrc.com/images//News/2018/September2018/14670_527_896x504.jpg?

+10

[the sniper]

The question is :"Are drivers ready?" not "Are the cars ready?" ;)

Exactly!


But what is the point, when there`s no car left in the end?

Why are you speaking hypothetically when we've just seen that wasn't the case? To me the results in Turkey showed that there was a pace at which that rally could be driven to ensure a good chance of finishing and securing a good result. Of course there is still a risk of bad luck, but that is the case on any rally and those who seemed to mitigate against taking risks made it to the end. People are talking like Turkey was a lottery, but look at the result... Three of the top four competitors for the JWRC were the top three going into the final day, Ken Torn seemingly went off due to a mistake, with the championship leader and most experienced participant winning the class and the Championship. Was that luck? RC2, won by Henning, the most experienced R5 competitor, focused on driving to the conditions and won the category by a country mile with few dramas. Was that luck? The overall classification, won by the guy who many of us believe is a Champion in waiting, followed by JML, the most experienced guy in RC1, followed by Paddon, who said he was driving to get to the finish from the start. Okay, the Toyota wouldn't have seemingly had the pace to go flat out at the pace of Ogier and Neuville, but they were pushing hard and look where it got them...


And all the time talking about reducing costs, then make teams spend more money for one or two events.
Then we have R5-s. Same story, except they are built for profit and mostly sold to privateers in national championships also, where there is no need for such a tough car. It is too expensive and many can`t afford it now, so developing it to these kind of events would probably mean that a customer needing it for smooth gravel and tarmac events would pay for that development, resulting in another dead circle.

The vast majority of the non-works/semi-works R5s entrants in RC2 in Turkey were made up of entrants from Turkey, Cyprus and Greece (with the addition of Henning who beat the works cars with virtually no problems in a private Skoda). I would imagine these kind of rough conditions are the norm for those guys, they know what they're getting into. If we're talking Safari, it'd be the same, most non-works entrants would be from local guys used to those conditions doing the Kenyan and African Championships. Nobody is forcing anyone with an R5 to enter Rally Turkey or a future Safari, so why are you concerned? It's not like it's necessary for WRC2.



In my opinion this is not normal:

https://www.wrc.com/images//News/2018/September2018/14670_527_896x504.jpg?

Yet, he won his classification and the Championship with few issues!!!

Come on guys, next you'll be setting up a 'save the rally car' foundation and a sanctuary for retired cars! :D

[Tarmop]

Um, i think four cars without issues is quite representative of the conditions. Yes there were a few driving errors also, but still. If you are grown on those roads, you ofc like them, maybe you don`t even have experience from better roads, but not very enjoyable to other drivers. Also lottery is not the right way, although this time made the championship much more interetsing.

[dimviii]

+1000 at sniper.Very well said. Agree from 1st to last word.

[Mirek]

Saying that nobody forces WRC2 (JWRC etc.) competitors to come is completely stupid argument. Why to organize a championship event in which championship competitors don't take part? What sort of flawed logic is that?

Why to organize such an event at all? It's World championship, not Kenyan, Turkish or whatever. Isn't saying something along "nobody came but twenty locals with 4 R5 will save the day" completely ridiculous?

[dimviii]

Nicky Grist
‏
great to see all the drama of @rallyturkey over the weekend. A WRC round that is a real challenge to driver, team and car. A balanced approach from a driver keeps the car in good shape to deliver a good result for the team. Well done to Toyota who mastered the conditions.

[N.O.T]

Nicky Grist
‏
great to see all the drama of @rallyturkey over the weekend. A WRC round that is a real challenge to driver, team and car. A balanced approach from a driver keeps the car in good shape to deliver a good result for the team. Well done to Toyota who mastered the conditions.

nobody cares what that grist thinks... we are talking about someone how says that 40% of the speed comes from the co-drivers... he is laughable

he has an opinion because of his famous driver, by himself he is nothing...

[dimviii]

Turkey was ok.Retirements at lower categories were ok (jwrc,wrc2) wrc2 cars finished without mechanical problems(Tidemand.Kopecky,Solberg)
jwrc winner had a faultless rally.Yes the fiesta at the photo with the big rock.
at wrc retirements were at level with other rallies.
it was rough at some sections at very few stages.
There is a place for such a rally at wrc.

[the sniper]

Saying that nobody forces WRC2 (JWRC etc.) competitors to come is completely stupid argument. Why to organize a championship event in which championship competitors don't take part? What sort of flawed logic is that?

Why to organize such an event at all? It's World championship, not Kenyan, Turkish or whatever. Isn't saying something along "nobody came but twenty locals with 4 R5 will save the day" completely ridiculous?

I respect your opinion on many things, but I'm surprised by your reaction here. It's the World Championship, not the ERC. It's inevitable that you will have rounds where European privateers in R5s will not choose to go in large numbers. This is precisely why WRC2 only counts seven rounds, with a result on one of those being dropped. Going by the question you pose in bold, the WRC couldn't exist. You exclude Mexico, Australia and Argentina from the WRC because the European privateers don't enter RC2 there. Without those rounds you don't qualify for World Championship status from the FIA.

Most importantly though, I just don't understand why we are having a hypothetical argument on this subject now. You say Turkey was too rough for privateers. We've just seen the very definition of a privateer trounce the works R5s on Rally Turkey. What other round of the WRC would have given a true privateer such an opportunity to win RC2/WRC2 (if entered), the latter of which particularly is dominated by Works/Semi-Works and 'Managed', well funded Drivers?

[AnttiL]

wrc2 cars finished without mechanical problems(Tidemand.Kopecky,Solberg)

Tidemand retired with mechanical problems, Kopecky had a double puncture and a broken driveshaft. Solberg was probably the only competitive R5 who finished without any issues.

[dimviii]

Tidemand didnt retired from punctures?
driveshafts failures we have even at asphalt rallies,even at wrc cars.
another point is if you do plenty kms with punctures you give a big stress to driveshafts(not only)

[Rally Power]

The question is :"Are drivers ready?" not "Are the cars ready?" ;)

More than the drivers or the cars the tyres have been the weakest link on rougher events; maybe it's time to bring back the mousse.

[AnttiL]

Tidemand didnt retired from punctures?


First stopped with third puncture, but couldn’t Rally2 because car was damaged

[Zeakiwi]

More than the drivers or the cars the tyres have been the weakest link on rougher events; maybe it's time to bring back the mousse.

Mousse did not work 100 percent of the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_mousse Maybe a set or two (10) beadlock rims for the roughest stages rather than mousse? https://youtu.be/eSg4uA4552A?t=43s taking beadlocks apart

How do some drivers have no punctures and others lots?

[Jarek Z]

How do some drivers have no punctures and others lots?

I think that Solberg and Ingram were the only R5 drivers that didn't have problems with tyres? All others did or am I wrong?

[Tarmop]

Could it be, that because running outside of WRC2 category, he coud use WRC tyres?

[Mirek]

I respect your opinion on many things, but I'm surprised by your reaction here. It's the World Championship, not the ERC. It's inevitable that you will have rounds where European privateers in R5s will not choose to go in large numbers. This is precisely why WRC2 only counts seven rounds, with a result on one of those being dropped. Going by the question you pose in bold, the WRC couldn't exist. You exclude Mexico, Australia and Argentina from the WRC because the European privateers don't enter RC2 there. Without those rounds you don't qualify for World Championship status from the FIA.

Again the same question. Why to add a championship event about which we know that it will not attract championship competitors? It doesn't matter where on the Globe the event is located. It shall be always organized so that it will attract highest possible number of regular entrants, i.e. the organizers shall not say to themselves something like: "nobody from privateers will come anyway so let's make it brutal". This is a road to nowhere and a wrong mindset. The organization shall always instead think this way: "we are having a distant event, let's try to offer something what makes them still come".

[Mirek]

I think that Solberg and Ingram were the only R5 drivers that didn't have problems with tyres? All others did or am I wrong?

Ingram had a puncture too.

[AnttiL]

Could it be, that because running outside of WRC2 category, he coud use WRC tyres?

I also wondered about this

[sonnybobiche]

"nobody from privateers will come anyway so let's make it brutal". This is a road to nowhere and a wrong mindset. The organization shall always instead think this way: "we are having a distant event, let's try to offer something what makes them still come".

It should be that way, but the FIA and the championship is way too politicized and corrupt for that. The people in charge of motorsport now are not in charge because they're good at leading, but because they're good at scheming.

That said, even a broken clock is right twice a day, and after all my complaining about how disgusting it was that they were taking out Poland on the pretense of 'safety' to get Turkey in, it turned out to be a really, really great addition to the calendar. Variety is the key. We needed an event that would stand out for its roughness. Rally Poland (at least the last few years, I don't know about before) felt very generic, IMO.

[pantealex]

Could it be, that because running outside of WRC2 category, he coud use WRC tyres?

http://www.rallyturkey.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/1.1-Bulletin-1-.pdf

3. 2018 FIA WRC Sporting Regulations / Art. 60.3 Tyres specified for use during the rally.
As per WRC Art. 60.3, the following competitor is required to use tyres from FIA-nominated tyre company:
81
Henning SOLBERG

What does that mean?
Only tyre company or tyre type also?

[the sniper]

Again the same question. Why to add a championship event about which we know that it will not attract championship competitors? It doesn't matter where on the Globe the event is located. It shall be always organized so that it will attract highest possible number of regular entrants, i.e. the organizers shall not say to themselves something like: "nobody from privateers will come anyway so let's make it brutal". This is a road to nowhere and a wrong mindset. The organization shall always instead think this way: "we are having a distant event, let's try to offer something what makes them still come".

How would that work in reality? European privateers will never be able to attend all 14 rounds of the world championship. Whether the stages are rough or not, most European privateers will not go to Australia, Argentina, Mexico or Kenya, ect... So you'd force all events to provide nice smooth roads, not in keeping with the character of those areas, just so that theoretically a European privateer can show up with his R5 and cruise around like a tourist, going no quicker than if it were a rougher rally, with less chance of getting a good result...

Again lets look at reality rather than making theoretical arguments. Privateers DID go to Rally Turkey. A privateer WON Rally Turkey. Are Solberg, Ingram, Tempestini, Kajto, Heller and Salvi moaning about the nature of the rally as much as some people here? Seems to me they embraced the event for what is was. The same would be the case for a returning Safari, privateers would go there for the famous conditions and challenge it has always presented. A Safari Rally with unauthentic, nice smooth roads wouldn't present a unique challenge while keeping the inconvenience and expense of being a long way from Europe, why would a privateer bother with that? The most successful non-European rallies attended by European privateers I can think of are all endurance events. People go and pay the price precisely for the challenge of taking part, not because it's easy...

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I don't think there should be more than one or two rougher events like this and I'd only go up to two if the Safari comes back. Also, if we were talking about the ERC here rather than the WRC, I'd be agreeing with you.

[SubaruNorway]

Henning was on the same tyres as the rest of WRC2, he was talking about the thinner side wall in an interview i saw

[Jarek Z]

Are Solberg, Ingram, Tempestini, Kajto, Heller and Salvi moaning about the nature of the rally as much as some people here? Seems to me they embraced the event for what is was.

This is what Kajto said about Rally of Turkey in his press release:

"We have completed seven special stages, totalling almost 150 kilometres. The second loop looked like a huge pile of stones, with route charted through it – and we have to drive on it. Even with extreme caution, it was quite easy to get a puncture and we also suffered. I think it would be really difficult to find someone who did not have any problems. You have to take a really unusual line on these roads, sometimes we have to weave on the straights. The road is unbelievably destroyed."

One remark - what we hear from drivers are usually official statments and press releases. Who knows what they say behind the scenes?

[Tarmop]

They also shook hands with the President...

[the sniper]

Who knows what they say behind the scenes?

I guess we'll have to wait for next year's entry list to see what everyone made of it. ;)

[giu canbera]

Maybe they should use BAJA Trophy Trucks or the Dakar cars for Rally Safari 2020 hahah =P

[Sulland]

Regarding tyres in Turkey, the remark Henning made, was on the tyredifference between RC1 and RC2 cars. He said that in this rally he could have been even closer to the RC1 cars if he had bolted on same type of tyre as they are using.

Aprox 10 kg of reinforements btw the two types of tyres.

But if you add strength on tyre, then something else on the car will brake first, often something else in the wheel/suspension area. The weakest link will simply move!

The natural thing to do, is then to drive slower to make sure the car holds together in one piece. That is also an important part of rally.