Power Stage system [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

Sulland

19th February 2018, 20:35

The power stage is a concept constructed for the ether media once upon a time.

Today you can see all stages live, you can follow in-car, out-car, helicam, timing, splittime, live commentators, end stage intervues, comments in depot and so on.

Over time the scorecard for PS has gone from 3-2-1 to 5-4-3-2-1, from 2017.
So in one stage you get 1 point less than the person getting 7th place overall, fighting for 3 days, keeping the car working.

If you could score max points for PS on all rallies you will end up with 65 points. That would give you a 10th place overall in 2017.

Are the current rules of the Power Stage the best they can be, or do they need an adjustment for 2019, or being skipped al together?

EstWRC

19th February 2018, 20:38

Back to 3-2-1 IMO.

AnttiL

19th February 2018, 20:43

Without the power stage, would the last stage on TV be as exciting? Is there enough of second battles going on?

My rallying taste was acquired decades ago and that's why things like Rally2 still feel wrong to me, but I gotta admit I love the excitement of power stages, watching the battles for fractions of seconds, with the drivers having to balance between survival and speed.

I think 5 points or 5 drivers awarded power stage points is not too much. I still remember the days when only 6 best would gain points and the winner got 10, so gaining two points more by moving from 5th to 4th was 20% of the winner's points, the same amount than winning the power stage is.

PLuto

19th February 2018, 20:44

If it will be on me, I will cancel whole power stage... Or make it as special stage at the end, out of classification of the rally (like it was golden stage in IRC Cyprus).

mknight

19th February 2018, 20:56

3-2-1 or... 3 2 1.5 1 0.5

Without powerstage there often won't be anything to watch on Sunday. Doesn't help that all stages are live when there are no fights.

Kaps

19th February 2018, 21:01

I'd prefer it scraped altogether, but I see your point. Maybe, for the sake of keeping the interest alive a 3-2-1 could be kept as well...

rallyfiend

19th February 2018, 21:05

The Power Stage is designed for mass-market TV consumption (like all the Live TV stages) and to try to attract new fans.

All the other things (All Live, splits, radio etc) are for the existing hardcore fans

Sulland

19th February 2018, 21:24

But is it fair that the Rally 2 guys are allowed to fight for those extra points?

The teams fighting for overall points in both championships are trying to secure their place, a few dare to fight to get higher. Most are on status que modus on Sundays. More ss km on Sundays is welcome.

Powerstage points for those doing rally 2 could be championship deciders, and that is wrong in my book.
Maybe PS points only for those still in the real rally points scoring.

Kaps

19th February 2018, 21:27

Maybe PS points only for those still in the real rally points scoring.

I agree, that would make sense as well.

PLuto

19th February 2018, 22:29

I agree, that would make sense as well.

But thats one of the reasons why they started with power stage - allow score points (give motivation) also for drivers who retired before...

A FONDO

19th February 2018, 23:00

But thats one of the reasons why they started with power stage - allow score points (give motivation) also for drivers who retired before...

No. They started it because at that time there were only Citroen and Ford, and in Sundays the blue ovals were usually 3-4 minutes behind already, so at least one of the stages in this day was useful to drive/watch.

N.O.T

19th February 2018, 23:33

Its a nice concept...

would be a pity to scrap it and return to cruising sundays with no interest just because someone took advantage of it and went around the rules once in all those years.... you can argue of course that this exploitation could be a championship decider at the end, but still i prefer it than a boring sunday.

GravelBen

20th February 2018, 01:29

I think proportionally the powerstage championship points are probably too high relative to placings in the rally - no problem with giving points for the the top 5 rather than top 3 in powerstage but it needs to be kept in balance to reflect that the powerstage is the icing on the cake, not another whole cake.

AnttiL

20th February 2018, 06:18

But thats one of the reasons why they started with power stage - allow score points (give motivation) also for drivers who retired before...

Yeh, the original Rally2 was just for power stage. I remember the first experiments from 1999. I think the first one was in Tour de Corse and then the next one in Finland. Ruuhimäki was the power stage.

Tommi Mäkinen had retired on Ouninpohja with technical failures and started the power stage first, gave it absolutely everything, going on the limit. Didier Auriol had retired earlier in the day because technical problems had dropped him far behind. He did the same as Tommi, going actually a big quicker. Thomas Rådström attempted, but wasn't fast enough. Toni Gardemaister was the only one still in the rally who could score a point.

In the end it started raining so the Rally2 starters were in a superior position to those starting behind, kind of same as Monte 2017. It's actually crazy considering the events that led to this discussion altogether...

We also saw Colin McRae's Ford Focus's engine expire just before the end of the stage in front of live TV cameras. There was also live onboard footage from Tommi Mäkinen and I thought that was unbeliveable, totally futuristic.

Back then there was no official WRC TV, but the productions were local and were to be syndicated globally. Thus the Finnish reporter at the stage end congratulated Kankkunen, who had won the rally, in English. Kankkunen recognized the reporter and replied initially in Finnish. This is also where he gave his infamous "Black round Pirelli" reply and continued by criticizing the whole power stage format.

Duvel

20th February 2018, 06:27

No rally 2 for cars on sunday, than no points go to those ho havn't done most of the rally?

AnttiL

20th February 2018, 06:44

No rally 2 for cars on sunday, than no points go to those ho havn't done most of the rally?

???

There's three main points for Rally 2

1. The drivers are still able to collect power stage points
2. If at least one of the other cars of the same team have retired, finishing through Rally2 ensures the manufacturer gets at least some manufacturer points. It doesn't matter how low you are in the overall order, it's enough if you're the second best in your team at the finish.
3. The manufacturer gets TV presence

It's not like the manufacturers will pay for the drivers to just drive for fun at Rally2.

dupanton

20th February 2018, 07:02

AnttiL

20th February 2018, 07:24

And what if we completly change the point scoring format in WRC?

1) points for overall classification stay like they are, but Rally2 drivers can't score any points here anymore (not for manufacturers neither)
2) points are awarded for day classifications (fe 5-4-3-2-1 for fastest 5 drivers). These points also count for manufacturers.
3) championship leader opens the road on Friday
4) rally leader opens on the other days. If they want to play games for road position, they will loose points.

That way, fights will be there all weekend long. They can't play games for roadposition neither. I think this would be a fair system.

Sounds good, but it sure will make it confusing for spectators, especially if the overall points are also kept in the game. Also, wouldn't this give more space for team tactics? Second or third drivers would retire into rally2 or take penalties to give more points to the team's main driver at the day end?

Allez Andruet

20th February 2018, 07:34

Toni Gardemaister was the only one still in the rally who could score a point.
And what a performance that was, Gardemeister setting the third fastest time after it had rained for a while already. All in all, that production of Ruuhimäki PS was absolutely brilliant although I had to tape it and watch it "live" afterwards as I was on my way back from Jyväskylä when the stage was run.

But anyway, regarding the actual topic... although I hated it first (and for a long time), I have to admit I've learned to like the PS as a concept, kind of. Regarding the need of changing the rules due to case Ogier, why not? If there is a way to do that, then it should be done as these kind of games will be played as long as they're not forbidden and it never looks good. No-one wants the sport to get that kind of publicity.

steve.mandzij

20th February 2018, 14:21

I posted this in the Ogier thread but it was more apt for this one:

Regarding the advantage Ogier gained, it's nothing anybody anywhere over 10th place could do to gain points effectively, because you'd lose the points from any other position with smaller gaps ahead and behind. However, it does raise another issue: the tenth placed driver now has a nearly sure way to score more points than 9th or 8th every single time on the PS. Maybe there can't be a rule preventing this that wouldn't exclude the bottom half of point scorers from PS points but it does raise an issue.

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janvanvurpa

20th February 2018, 15:41

But thats one of the reasons why they started with power stage - allow score points (give motivation) also for drivers who retired before...

Seems that may be the critical thing that creates some problems..

Traditionally, you crash and can't continue and go over MPL, you're out. No hit the Reset button.

Now, since you can https://thumbs.gfycat.com/RemarkableShadyAuk-max-1mb.gif that means you can be in PS and score some points over some guys who drove the entire route who didn't stuff it so hard they could not continue..

It seems to me to be a violation of logic that somebody who scored zero on one or several SSs should be allowed to beat (score points) more than somebody who scored anything on ALL the SSs..
But I look at it from perspective of long term competitor not somebody who came to the sport playing video games--which is probably the decisive difference..

Sub_Skoda

20th February 2018, 15:56

Back to 3-2-1 IMO.

Yes!
Or delete it or launch a "Power Stage Championship" with some manufacturers bonus points.

AL14

20th February 2018, 16:02

3-2-1 was the best option. You had the same results (some driver pushing to get points in an otherwise cruising stage) but with less impact on rankings.
IMO 5 points are too many. Not nice that the 3rd driver can get more point than the guy one step ahead in the podium. Not to mention rally2 crews getting more points than the car in 8th position

steve.mandzij

20th February 2018, 16:02

Seems that may be the critical thing that creates some problems..

Traditionally, you crash and can't continue and go over MPL, you're out. No hit the Reset button.

Now, since you can https://thumbs.gfycat.com/RemarkableShadyAuk-max-1mb.gif that means you can be in PS and score some points over some guys who drove the entire route who didn't stuff it so hard they could not continue..

It seems to me to be a violation of logic that somebody who scored zero on one or several SSs should be allowed to beat 9score points) more than somebody who scored anything on ALL the SSs..
But I look at it from perspective of long term competitor not somebody who came to the sport playing video games--which is probably the decisive difference..Maybe retirees from crashes cannot score PS points but those affected by mechanical issues can.

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janvanvurpa

20th February 2018, 16:23

Yes!
Or delete it or launch a "Power Stage Championship" with some manufacturers bonus points.

Smart!
Thinking about that it is the factory teams mainly who can do a complete rebuild of a serious crashed car..

So a driver who crashes the car completely to hell, he lose any point possibility.

But the manufacturer team which can put it back together, well OK, they win some Manufacturer points.

why not?

mknight

20th February 2018, 17:10

Maybe there can't be a rule preventing this that wouldn't exclude the bottom half of point scorers from PS points but it does raise an issue.

As was mentioned before.

All timepenalties for late or early TCs on Sunday will count both towards total time but also towards Power Stage time.

denkimi

20th February 2018, 17:13

Rally2 was invented to make sure spectators saw at least a few rally cars on sunday. But without power stage, rally2 loses most of its purpose. If there are no points to be won, nobody will restart, and spectators might not come back on sunday.

if we want to ban rally2, then we need to allow flying service after each stage again.

ESTR

20th February 2018, 20:35

This 5 point system is no other that complaining crying baby's idea who is always on worst conditions everywhere.

Tarmop

20th February 2018, 20:47

stefanvv

20th February 2018, 21:04

It is quite stupid to award 5 points for one relatively short stage, whereas other gets less for a 8. place finish driving throughout the weekend. Same for a podium finish, after 2. place the next can score more points than the previous finisher. Not really logical. 3-2-1 would be a more fair bonus.

The same applies to the day point scoring system, and quite few people believe it is genuinely good idea. Why not bring back the old rally, with marathon rallies and stages, 2-3 stages at night for a day, without rally2, the fastest driver always open the roads? - Because we can't, rally is not the same like it was 30-40 years before, when almost everything depended on drivers' capabilities, and not so much about the cars, until Group B days anyway. Oh, and there were no historic cars running between WRC runs, what historic cars?!? Wishful thinking is one thing, reality - another. Current PS point scoring system is fair as the cars are now more equal package altogether with the crew. The sport has changed.... Like it or not.

GravelBen

20th February 2018, 21:44

Maybe retirees from crashes cannot score PS points but those affected by mechanical issues can.

Who decides what is a mechanical problem and what is caused by crashing? We already see drivers retiring or losing time due to "mechanical issues" which were clearly caused by going off the road and hitting things. Or the other way around, what if a crash is caused by a mechanical issue like Latvala's big one in Argentina?

Too complicated and too many grey areas, I don't think it would be possible to make that work.

steve.mandzij

21st February 2018, 01:50

Who decides what is a mechanical problem and what is caused by crashing? We already see drivers retiring or losing time due to "mechanical issues" which were clearly caused by going off the road and hitting things. Or the other way around, what if a crash is caused by a mechanical issue like Latvala's big one in Argentina?

Too complicated and too many grey areas, I don't think it would be possible to make that work.Yeah, after I thought it through it didn't make sense (and oh why did you remind me of Latvala's crash D:)

What was said earlier, about adding penalties incurred right before the PS to the stage time, sounds better, although I'd say all Sunday penalties should count towards the PS time, to prevent drivers checking in late to the end of the penultimate stage.

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AnttiL

21st February 2018, 05:49

What was said earlier, about adding penalties incurred right before the PS to the stage time, sounds better, although I'd say all Sunday penalties should count towards the PS time, to prevent drivers checking in late to the end of the penultimate stage.

Shouldn't matter as there is a regroup before the power stage. All the cars gather to a one place and then the starting order can be decided by the organizer. For example sometimes we see WRC2 cars at the start.

ESTR

21st February 2018, 06:00

Why can't Ogier gets automatic 5 point bonus because of his greatness. That would be fair enough. And I think he complain that he gets too many

Tarmop

21st February 2018, 07:48

Stop being ridiculous.

AnttiL

21st February 2018, 09:08

Here's the 2017 WRC points score with 3-2-1 power stage points

1. Ogier 232 - 21 = 211
2. Neuville 208 - 18 = 190
3. Tänak 191 - 12 = 179
4. Latvala 136 - 16 = 120
5. Evans 128 - 8 = 120
6. Sordo 95 - 10 = 85
7. Paddon 74 - 1 = 73
8. Meeke 77 - 7 = 70
9. Hänninen 71 - 5 = 66
10. Breen 64 - 3 = 61
11. Lappi 62 - 8 = 54
12. Mikkelsen 54 - 5 = 49
13. Suninen 29
14. Østberg 29
15. Lefebvre 30 - 4 = 26

The only differences we see is that Evans becomes equal with Latvala, Meeke drops behind Paddon and Lefebvre drops behind Suninen and Østberg. The title would have still been decided already in Wales.

jparker

21st February 2018, 09:50

How about all stages are PSs, and overall winners get bonus points?
This way drivers need to compete from start to finish non-stop at max.

AnttiL

21st February 2018, 10:03

How about all stages are PSs, and overall winners get bonus points?
This way drivers need to compete from start to finish non-stop at max.

The JWRC has additional points for stage wins.

dupanton

21st February 2018, 10:39

How about all stages are PSs, and overall winners get bonus points?
This way drivers need to compete from start to finish non-stop at max.

Maybe giving the 5-4-3-2-1 bonus points to the "best performers"

Franky

21st February 2018, 11:01

I think we should start giving style points also. Then it would be like ski jumping.

jparker

21st February 2018, 11:10

Maybe giving the 5-4-3-2-1 bonus points to the "best performers"

Exactly.
Anyway, I don't mind any system that will keep the excitement till the end of the rally.

AnttiL

21st February 2018, 13:03

I think we should start giving style points also. Then it would be like ski jumping.

Mads could become World Champion as well :)

Franky

21st February 2018, 14:40

Mads could become World Champion as well :)

Or Gigi Galli comeback? :D

janvanvurpa

22nd February 2018, 04:25

I think we should start giving style points also. Then it would be like ski jumping.

It is the next logic step based on the long term plan of Dave Richards---a fucking co-driver----to make the WEC into a "TV spectacle"..
Now we can discuss this, not saying only one way but judging from the popularity of the threads here, the paint and stickers and logos is very important to many fan-bois--much discussion.....so logically it should be scored..Don't dismiss... Think of the excitement each event, everybody waiting to the moment when TA-DAAAAAHHH! the new livery is reveal and the panel of judges can rate the paint, stickers , promo music and light show, and of course, the back story---all individually scored...Each car could be on camera for 7-9 minutes mini-vignette..

Then of course style points for driving, that foes without saying..there should be known places where judging takes place...the armys of spectaots could be herded into appropriate pens and provide color background..And I think there should be on each stage "tie-breakers" points where drivers are secretly judged on style but only shown to the Pay-for-view home audience>

And as stomping around in snow or slipping in wet chest high summer wheat carrying a camera is no fun, and the clear desire of most people is to go with the times, logically it should next go to score SERVICE, the action behind the scenes which is indispensable, and therefore ripe for exploitation. Imagine a row of judges, watching a 9 minute gearbox change --with dramatic sound track piped into the service area----judging style and execution, and poise...(wait? should it be points added, or points subtracted for really GOOD swearing??? I say points added..It has always vastly helped me when working service to calm down by swearing non-stop..) you could have the build up then 9,9, 9,2, 8.0 9.9, 9.9..and they could do that each service!

The possibilities are endless..Max promo..We're all going to be rich!

Sulland

17th June 2019, 22:22

So, would you like:
- Ditch powerstage concept
- Give 3-2-1 points
- Keep todays system?

wrc2017

17th June 2019, 23:01

Power stage as is... but the rally ends stage before.. so its FLAT OUT for everyone, with new tyres.

Katvala

17th June 2019, 23:07

What if power stage points also gave maunufactorer points?

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rhm

18th June 2019, 18:53

Power stage as is... but the rally ends stage before.. so its FLAT OUT for everyone, with new tyres.

This could be pretty wicked - as an add-on, regroup after the first pass, then send them back along the stage in the opposite direction, points for fastest aggregate time

e.g. two stage mini rally on the Sunday

wrc2017

18th June 2019, 19:15

This could be pretty wicked - as an add-on, regroup after the first pass, then send them back along the stage in the opposite direction, points for fastest aggregate time

e.g. two stage mini rally on the Sunday

To much logistic to run in reverse...
But finishing order of power stage determines running order for next rally... now there is a good idea!!

Mirek

18th June 2019, 19:31

I think that there shall be at least a tyre fitting zone before the Power Stage. Yes, it would cost a bit more but it would prevent ridiculous snail driving through Sunday like on Sardinia (Mikkelsen really made my day winning the PS while on a push through the whole day over Ogier driving like a safety car on reverse gear not wear tyres).

Otherwise I do understand the reason for it's existence and I can live with it despite I don't like the idea very much. Maybe going back to 3-2-1 is better to downplay the importance of PS a bit.

Mirek

18th June 2019, 19:33

This could be pretty wicked - as an add-on, regroup after the first pass, then send them back along the stage in the opposite direction, points for fastest aggregate time

e.g. two stage mini rally on the Sunday

This was applied in the past and it actually worked very well in IRC. It was called a Golden Stage. It was held only once per year and it was also avarded with quite a lot of money.

Here's Neuville's epic drive through it in 2011 (crazy moment @ 1:50): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3dj13W7dSk

the sniper

18th June 2019, 19:51

I don't know if it's currently possible within the rules, but I think that there should always be a Tyre Fitting Zone just for Priority 1 entrants prior to the Power Stage.

stefanvv

18th June 2019, 20:49

PS is the only thing that makes Sundays not boring, most of the time. On other hand it makes the other stages even more boring when drivers save tyres for it. The whole Sunday stages have to be rethink into something else. Now I sound like Capito.

stefanvv

18th June 2019, 20:55

How about after Saturday drivers get 2/3 of the points, on Sunday 1/3 of them? Or 3/4 vs 1/4? Pros and Cons?

Morte66

18th June 2019, 21:01

I don't know if it's currently possible within the rules, but I think that there should always be a Tyre Fitting Zone just for Priority 1 entrants prior to the Power Stage.

I think the guiding principle of rally organisation should be: people come to see the drivers drive, and drive fast.

So, there should be a tyre zone before the PS. There should be a short service at the end of every loop, and a chance for retired drivers to enter restart rules in the afternoon. There should be a rally 2 on the last day of the Monte, and if their park isn't big enough for more than 60 cars then find another one. And so on.

stefanvv

18th June 2019, 21:11

I think the guiding principle of rally organisation should be: people come to see the drivers drive, and drive fast.

So, there should be a tyre zone before the PS. There should be a short service at the end of every loop, and a chance for retired drivers to enter restart rules in the afternoon. There should be a rally 2 on the last day of the Monte, and if their park isn't big enough for more than 60 cars then find another one. And so on.

With or without tyre fitting zone before PS, some drivers still won't go flat out (rally 2) at the previous stages. Besides there should be still tyres left to fit?!?

spiderem

18th June 2019, 21:30

This was applied in the past and it actually worked very well in IRC. It was called a Golden Stage. It was held only once per year and it was also avarded with quite a lot of money.

Here's Neuville's epic drive through it in 2011 (crazy moment @ 1:50): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3dj13W7dSk

:) I remember watching it live. Neuville was on an absolute push...

Sulland

27th October 2019, 01:39

When will we know if FIA will do adjustments or ditch the powerstage for 2020?

There are so few WRCars now, so even if you habe issues on day 1, as Ogier did in spain, you will get 1 point in 10th, and could get 5 for PS. 6 points is too much for that.

flykas

27th October 2019, 07:06

Well I don't see the problem with Power Stage, I haven't complained about it once and it is almost allways exciting. Do feel like it made the rally worse in some way? Because it seems to be really great rally with really close fights this year and previous year.

able1

28th October 2019, 04:21

its pseudo issue , powerstages from last two rallies have been brilliant. Why change something that is working just fine?

Sulland

27th February 2022, 11:57

WRCStan

27th February 2022, 12:24

If crews have nothing to gain or lose over Sundays the tyre chat is irrelevant, they won't be involving needless risk. Sounds like you want more entertaining action yet want to stifle the risk by banning Restarting, this doesn't make sense.

I think what you would like is more kilometres on Sundays, or a higher % of the rally. This shifts where the racing is. Then this is nothing to do with the Power Stage system. Maybe?

AndyRAC

27th February 2022, 13:01

Todays system destroys the sunday on too many rallies. Something need to be done.

1. New tyres for all for power stage. So that saving tyres is not pri 1.
2. 1 point for all stage wins on sunday. So that you can earn points not only on the PS.
3. PS points 3-2-1, to have people fight also on sundays. 5 points is too much.

I also would like to see Superally/Rally2 to be banned. If you are out, you are out.

The purist thinks yes, the realist has accepted that it's needed to keep cars in the event.

I think the Sunday is a problem, most of the time it's around 40-50km, which is nothing. Couldn't they make it longer, or finish the event on a Saturday evening? That is worth experimenting.

However, we've discussed many times that the Promoters sell a lot of their coverage due to the Power Stage on a Sunday lunchtime every event. They're not going to change this - unless something changes.

AnttiL

27th February 2022, 14:02

Both rallies this year had big drama on Sunday, Ogier’s puncture in Monte and Evans’s off in Sweden. We can go back in history and see something has happened in almost every rally’s Sunday, even though some drivers are just cruising to save tyres.

My suggestion is to have only the power stage driven twice on Sunday (and the kilometres moved elsewhere on the rally, like Thursday evening). Even tyre savers usually go faster on first take of power stage.