Sébastien Ogier:Clever move Vs Unfair

[Antreas]

Sebastien Ogier started with delay in power stage of Rally Sweden(after WRC2 Cars)his grip it was better than others drivers,so he score 4 points,what is your opinion about that??

[ESTR]

He is a little sissy.

[Antreas]

Vote here
https://strawpoll.com/sckp34a3

[N.O.T]

if its allowed by the rules its fair... end of story.

Its not the first time someone plays tricks to get a benefit.

[Myrvold]

It's a clever move, it is also a clear lack of sportsmanship. Unfair, depending on the definition of unfair.

[stefanvv]

Are we sure he had the best starting position? He started after some RC2 cars which have different lines than wrcars.

[satukata]

Why Kris Meeke didn´t do the same? We have to change rules and stop playing with starting position.

[denkimi]

I would have done the same. In the end the goal is to become champion, no matter what it takes.

History only remembers winners and dead people.

[TMorel]

I’m not a big fan of Ogier but this was a great call by the team.
It’s just a shame that it’s resulted in almost as much sulking in the forums as it has from Seb throughout the rest of the event.

[RICARDO75]

He did what no one else thought to do before. He had 1 point to lose, he risked and colected 4 points.
Unfair? The road conditions on the first day in the afternoon after the classics that have no place in WRC. Every year the same story. Not only for Ogier, but also for Tänak and Latvala.

[NoName]

In Sweden you never know when it is bad or good to start first.. This year bad.. Last year it would be good.. So he should stop crying about it..

What he did today.. was a smart move to collect point..

[wrc2017]

He will be yapping about road position in Mexico

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Matt Wilson:
No rules were broken and those extra points could be crucial at the end of the year. I can remember the days when cars were stopping on the stages to drop time and not start first the next day. It’s a part of the sport.

[Mintexmemory]

Matt Wilson:
No rules were broken and those extra points could be crucial at the end of the year. I can remember the days when cars were stopping on the stages to drop time and not start first the next day. It’s a part of the sport.
NewZealand in 2011 when Loeb was so concerned about Ogier he forgot about Latvala :)

[CWJ]

Clever move congrats MSPORT !

They just used the rules to start in front of Neuville, but then head of course set them even behind 2 more R5 cars without TV coverage, I cant't read that that is fair and according to the rules ... ?

[mknight]

Don't think any rules were broken and it was clever move, but it's imo quite likely FIA will do some change to make this illegal, mostly for TV purposes.

Now on the powestage live TV they showed the podium and called results and completely missed that Ogier could come and take points. This is something they will for sure try to avoid. (it's also the reason why they move rally 2 cars in front in the regroup.

So I expect they add some rule that to take PS points in WRC car you need to start the stage before the rally leader.

[andyone]

im not an Ogier Fan at all i actually pray for him to have issues. and im always happy when he retires. (well coz he is too good) but this for me is a clever Move. he is a Championship defender. i think its a clever move.

[PLuto]

Clever move congrats MSPORT !

They just used the rules to start in front of Neuville, but then promoter was calling head of course to set them even behind 2 more R5 cars, I cant't read that that is fair and according to the rules ... ?

They just used the rules to start after Paddon, so before Mikkelsen. I think it was mainly because he cannot do it so much later as maximum allowed penalty is 30 minutes. Regarding the starting order, there was specific rule in WRC regulations that promoter can choose order for power stage, but I cannot find it there now.

[RICARDO75]

Q.s. was banned because it was a supremacy by some drivers/cars and I agree with that. However, the balance came back in 2017 with the new cars and more drivers that are now on same level. In my opinion, FIA could have recognized this situation and regain the Q.S. this year, but didn't happen.
Ogier opened a precedent, like as happened in the past with purposeful delays to not be first on the road on the next day. It is very likely that from now, more drivers could do the same in more rallies.

[er88]

Clever and fair because it's within the rules, but yeah the FIA will maybe have to somehow change the rules slightly.

Otherwise Meeke could've/should've done the same today, and Evans also. For example in Mexico whoever are the three/four drivers in 10th/11th/12th etc (or drivers returning under super rally), could apply the same tactics to run last on the road instead of first.

Although one thing I would say is that Sweden is maybe exceptional circumstances, as the power stage wasn't run as a stage this morning (instead on Friday), whereas on most gravel rounds the power stage will be cleaned in the morning. Also won't be the effect of fresh snow falling etc.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[dodge33cymru]

No rules were broken, clever play. No doubt the rules will be changed to prevent it but IMO the power stage concept isn't rallying anyway, so well done for ****ing with it. The promoters did this to themselves by creating such an artificial situation for the final stage and I hope they don't change it because it could have a negative impact on others lower down the order just trying to make a finish. But no doubt they will, because I don't think they care about anything beyond their top 12 cars being on TV.

Rant over. In summary, well done Ogier, played the rulebook well. I can't believe no-one has thought to try it before.

[ESTR]

No rules were broken, clever play. No doubt the rules will be changed to prevent it but IMO the power stage concept isn't rallying anyway, so well done for ****ing with it. The promoters did this to themselves by creating such an artificial situation for the final stage and I hope they don't change it because it could have a negative impact on others lower down the order just trying to make a finish. But no doubt they will, because I don't think they care about anything beyond their top 12 cars being on TV.

Rant over. In summary, well done Ogier, played the rulebook well. I can't believe no-one has thought to try it before.


If Meeke or some other would do that I'm sure FIA would disqualify him.

Antik would probably report him already and this thread would have 35 pages of nonsense already.

[A FONDO]

Not the fairest act but this week was indeed too hard. First the fresh snow, then unploughed stage, then RWD historics... Sweeping the snow for three consecutive days is too big punishment for a single person.

It won't be the same any soon though, so the only rule change I find necessary is for Rally2 to start first on the road.

[Sulland]

Rules are rules.

But the concept of the superstage and point awarding for that one stage is for me somewhat strange.

that you after going off, can be awarded one more point as a team that comes in 8th in the whole rally is way to much.

1-3 to top 3 for the show, maybe, but I would have preferred 0,5- 1 - 2 points for top 3.
5 points is way to much for a driver that really should not be part of the rally anymore.

Are you out, you are out.

[danon]

Where is AnttiK7?

[seb_sh]

I think this clearly shows the rules are broken: too many points for too many drivers in the powerstage so it makes it worth it to try something like this.

Not the nicest strategy but within the rules. I don't think this is worse than slowing down to get a better position back when the order wasn't reversed.

[Watson]

As an M-Sport fan I am clearly biased and therefore my opinion should be taken with a pinch of salt, so here goes.

Plenty of drivers who have poor events cruise on Sunday to save their tyres for the PS. You swallow a disadvantage in one place in hope to gain something somewhere else. It's tactics, it's not against any paragraph in the rulebook and it doesn't put anyone in danger so I suppose its fine.

I'm trying to imagine what my reaction would be if Hyundai or Toyota had done it and I guess I'd be fine with it. Hard to tell if that guess is accurate before it happens though.

[wrc2017]

to take things to extremes to exaggerate a point.

If everyone done what Ogier done.. they couldn't hold the Power Stages, because no-one wants to go first.

I'm sure there is a reg in the rulebook for unsportsmanlike conduct.

That would cover it.

[Watson]

to take things to extremes to exaggerate a point.

If everyone done what Ogier done.. they couldn't hold the Power Stages, because no-one wants to go first.

I'm sure there is a reg in the rulebook for unsportsmanlike conduct.

That would cover it.

Not many people would do that because you'd lose the points for your result. Imagine you have the chance to gather 3 or 4 points for your overall position. Would be crazy to throw that away cause if you have one mistake in the PS you wind up with nothing. It also usually never happens because Rally2 starters go last and normally drivers at the bottom of the Top10 are Rally2 starters. There were unusually few retirements in this event.

[stefanvv]

Plenty of drivers who have poor events cruise on Sunday to save their tyres for the PS. You swallow a disadvantage in one place in hope to gain something somewhere else. It's tactics, it's not against any paragraph in the rulebook and it doesn't put anyone in danger so I suppose its fine.

Exactly, it is all strategy, if the rules allow it, we should also accept it. Mikkelsen too sabotaged his PS points in Portugal 2016 if I'm not mistaken for a better road position for Poland, Tanak slowed down last year on PS to give Ogier more points. It is the strategy game all teams can play, and they do. In chess there is often similar situation - You sacrifice a bishop or horse to take the queen or check-mate.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Colin Clark:
Gaining competitive advantage in motorsport has very often through the years been about taking an interpretation on rules that are grey. That’s exactly what Seb Ogier did, and I have no issues with that whatsoever. Don’t shout at Ogier, shout at the rule makers.

[Tarmop]

Not many people would do that because you'd lose the points for your result. Imagine you have the chance to gather 3 or 4 points for your overall position. Would be crazy to throw that away cause if you have one mistake in the PS you wind up with nothing. It also usually never happens because Rally2 starters go last and normally drivers at the bottom of the Top10 are Rally2 starters. There were unusually few retirements in this event.

Rally2 starts ahead of the rest in the powerstage.

[stefanvv]

Q.s. was banned because it was a supremacy by some drivers/cars and I agree with that. However, the balance came back in 2017 with the new cars and more drivers that are now on same level. In my opinion, FIA could have recognized this situation and regain the Q.S. this year, but didn't happen.
Ogier opened a precedent, like as happened in the past with purposeful delays to not be first on the road on the next day. It is very likely that from now, more drivers could do the same in more rallies.

I agree with that. We can all agree 2017 cars give drivers more equal performance, so now the situation is quite different from when the QS was banned. It's not like all of a sudden most drivers became as good as Ogier and can win rallies. The road conditions though are all the same. The sport rules must evolve together with the car rules.

[Andre Oliveira]

Hello and goodbye

https://scontent.flis1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/28061315_2033438743352209_2917044980064889244_o.jp g?oh=dcd808c5113cfda1fa1a011dc15cd6e1&oe=5B14D230&dl=1

[AndyRAC]

Very smart & clever move - and entirely within the rules. It happens in all sports, you push the rules to the absolute limit, without going over them. I sometimes wonder whether some rally fans follow any other sports, such is their naivety.

If the FiA want to close this loophole, then it has to be for next year; changing rules in the season is a definite 'no no'. Though they might also want to look at the Rally2 regs as well.

[stefanvv]

Weren't also Hyundai also using some tactics in some rallye(s) last year in Neuville's favor, hiding behind excuses with technical issues, or how about illegal car for the road without side mirrors? M-Sport are at least honest with us.

[Myrvold]

Colin Clark:
Gaining competitive advantage in motorsport has very often through the years been about taking an interpretation on rules that are grey. That’s exactly what Seb Ogier did, and I have no issues with that whatsoever. Don’t shout at Ogier, shout at the rule makers.

In a way, I do agree. But Clark, along with other media don't ask any critical questions at all, so no wonder that it wouldn't be any negative words coming from them now either.

[Myrvold]

As an M-Sport fan I am clearly biased and therefore my opinion should be taken with a pinch of salt, so here goes.

Plenty of drivers who have poor events cruise on Sunday to save their tyres for the PS. You swallow a disadvantage in one place in hope to gain something somewhere else. It's tactics, it's not against any paragraph in the rulebook and it doesn't put anyone in danger so I suppose its fine.

I'm trying to imagine what my reaction would be if Hyundai or Toyota had done it and I guess I'd be fine with it. Hard to tell if that guess is accurate before it happens though.

It is tactics, but it's unsporting. Also, at least have the balls to do it as a man. From the GPS-trackers it seems like Ogier went on a small sideroad and hid behind a little farmhouse to not be seen. That would be extremely wimpy of him. To actually hide... (if this is indeed the actual thing)


to take things to extremes to exaggerate a point.

If everyone done what Ogier done.. they couldn't hold the Power Stages, because no-one wants to go first.

I'm sure there is a reg in the rulebook for unsportsmanlike conduct.

That would cover it.

Not many people would do that because you'd lose the points for your result. Imagine you have the chance to gather 3 or 4 points for your overall position. Would be crazy to throw that away cause if you have one mistake in the PS you wind up with nothing. It also usually never happens because Rally2 starters go last and normally drivers at the bottom of the Top10 are Rally2 starters. There were unusually few retirements in this event.

However, they could agree to do just this. To make a point. It would cause havoc with TV-times, spectators etc. though.


Hello and goodbye


Team orders in the second to last round of the championship is a different thing than to first hide, take a 4min10sec penalty to start late, then have the other guy in the team get a 4min20 sec penalty to gain back the spot in the second round of the championship.
There is a reason why very few bats an eye on team-orders at the end of the season... Same reason why many reacts to it at the start of the year!

[danon]

... M-Sport are at least honest with us.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/98jU7NxuNSSZ2/giphy.gif

[Tarmop]

Maybe he had a call of nature and was polite not to do it in front of everyone?:D
Anyway, Evans didn`t "lose enough time".


1 FRA S. OGIER FRA J. INGRASSIA M-SPORT FORD WORLD RALLY TEAM FIESTA WRC M RC1 TC19 LATE 4:10.0

2:00.0
GBR E. EVANS GBR D. BARRITT M-SPORT FORD WORLD RALLY TEAM FIESTA WRC M RC1 TC19A LATE 4:20.0

OA:
10. 2 GBR E. EVANS GBR D. BARRITT M-SPORT FORD WORLD RALLY TEAM M RC1 2:57:40.5 +1:43.0 +5:27.4
11. 1 FRA S. OGIER FRA J. INGRASSIA M-SPORT FORD WORLD RALLY TEAM M RC1 3:00:58.5 +3:18.0 +8:45.4

[stefanvv]

It is tactics, but it's unsporting. Also, at least have the balls to do it as a man. From the GPS-trackers it seems like Ogier went on a small sideroad and hid behind a little farmhouse to not be seen. That would be extremely wimpy of him. To actually hide... (if this is indeed the actual thing)

If You aren't sure and hadn't been there, why bother us with this?

[moto99]

Team orders in the second to last round of the championship is a different thing than to [...] take a 4min10sec penalty to start late, then have the other guy in the team get a 4min20 sec penalty to gain back the spot in the second round of the championship.
There is a reason why very few bats an eye on team-orders at the end of the season... Same reason why many reacts to it at the start of the year!

So you can make such things only from 3rd round, not 2nd?

In Jordan 2010 Loeb was to sweep the road on the last day as the rally leader, but Citroen made Ogier (3rd at the time, behind Latvala) check early to sweep road for Loeb. And it was just 3rd round of the championship.

[Micke_VOC]

Maybe he had a call of nature and was polite not to do it in front of everyone?:D
Anyway, Evans didn`t "lose enough time".


1 FRA S. OGIER FRA J. INGRASSIA M-SPORT FORD WORLD RALLY TEAM FIESTA WRC M RC1 TC19 LATE 4:10.0

2:00.0
GBR E. EVANS GBR D. BARRITT M-SPORT FORD WORLD RALLY TEAM FIESTA WRC M RC1 TC19A LATE 4:20.0

OA:
10. 2 GBR E. EVANS GBR D. BARRITT M-SPORT FORD WORLD RALLY TEAM M RC1 2:57:40.5 +1:43.0 +5:27.4
11. 1 FRA S. OGIER FRA J. INGRASSIA M-SPORT FORD WORLD RALLY TEAM M RC1 3:00:58.5 +3:18.0 +8:45.4

Not correct, look here:
http://rallysweden.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/official-final-classification.pdf

[Myrvold]

Maybe he had a call of nature and was polite not to do it in front of everyone?:D
Anyway, Evans didn`t "lose enough time".


1 FRA S. OGIER FRA J. INGRASSIA M-SPORT FORD WORLD RALLY TEAM FIESTA WRC M RC1 TC19 LATE 4:10.0

2:00.0
GBR E. EVANS GBR D. BARRITT M-SPORT FORD WORLD RALLY TEAM FIESTA WRC M RC1 TC19A LATE 4:20.0

OA:
10. 2 GBR E. EVANS GBR D. BARRITT M-SPORT FORD WORLD RALLY TEAM M RC1 2:57:40.5 +1:43.0 +5:27.4
11. 1 FRA S. OGIER FRA J. INGRASSIA M-SPORT FORD WORLD RALLY TEAM M RC1 3:00:58.5 +3:18.0 +8:45.4

That overall is wrong. If Evans had 4min20sec penalty, how can he only be 5.27 behind Neuville? ;)


If You aren't sure and hadn't been there, why bother us with this?

I am sure of what I saw on the GPS map on WRC+, it showed Ogier hiding behind a farmhouse on a small sideroad.


So you can make such things only from 3rd round, not 2nd?

In Jordan 2010 Loeb was to sweep the road on the last day as the rally leader, but Citroen made Ogier (3rd at the time, behind Latvala) check early to sweep road for Loeb. And it was just 3rd round of the championship.

Do I (or others) really have to go through every single possible example and say what we deem ok or not ok? Or what do you really mean with that post?
No, I did not find that to be ok either. Both happened in a point in the championship were both drivers still have a shot at the title.

But then I again, I wrote "end of the season" and "start of the year". I am sure you understood that the 3rd rally of the year are not a part of the "end of the season".

[Tarmop]

Yes, saw it now. Still strange, as Evans had only 10 seconds longer punishment and lost ~16 to him on PS. The gap before was ~55 seconds.
Probably need to look more, as i`m definitely wrong.:D

[stefanvv]

I am sure of what I saw on the GPS map on WRC+, it showed Ogier hiding behind a farmhouse on a small sideroad.

"I saw a car driving normally on the road in front of me, suddenly it jumped into a ditch and continued in the farm field, and I thought - ahh there is another one with GPS navigation"

[steve.mandzij]

I thought it was bizzare to hear that Ogier hadn't shown up for the stage to have a better shot at the PS, but as much as I wanted to find something to criticize about it I realized it was silly to do so. He did what he needed to do to maximise his points haul for the horrendous rally he had, and it's not like he didn't get a penalty for it. Sure enough Evans cancelled out the penalty but that's exactly what he was expected to do as second fiddle to the world champion.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[dimviii]

some info we didnt know
https://rallysportmag.com/desperate-tactics-give-ogier-another-four-valuable-wrc-points/

[Myrvold]

"I saw a car driving normally on the road in front of me, suddenly it jumped into a ditch and continued in the farm field, and I thought - ahh there is another one with GPS navigation"

Haha! Love it :)

[stefanvv]

Haha! Love it :)

Sure, but I'm little curious anyway how did You saw a farm house on the wrc+ map?

[GravelBen]

Very smart & clever move - and entirely within the rules.

It obviously isn't 'entirely within the rules' if he is penalised 4 minutes for it.

It shows that the penalty isn't enough relative to powerstage points to prevent people breaking the rules though.

[Myrvold]

Sure, but I'm little curious anyway how did You saw a farm house on the wrc+ map?

Google maps is a good help when you wonder what the **** is that road? Where does it lead? What's on it? I was hoping it was some sort of village party-place! :)

[stefanvv]

Google maps is a good help when you wonder what the **** is that road? Where does it lead? What's on it? I was hoping it was some sort of village party-place! :)

Thanks, useful info. I'm like an aborigine in computers and technology and so. Don't ask me about Mathematics and Physics.

[dimviii]

at second paragraph,Neuvilles opinion about Ogiers case.

"It's nice to follow Loeb and Ogier on the list of non-Scandinavian winners here, it's a win like any other because they're all important, the start of the season is way better than last season. what follows is a little more complicated, we already know that we are going to suffer from the sweeping in Mexico, to go looking for a podium or even the top 5 will be difficult.On the regular, we can do 7th or 8th I think. There is some asphalt during some special stages, I hope to be competitive there, we will make sure to leave Mexico with a small lead in the championship to open the road to the Tour de Corse, "Neuville detailed at the microphone. our colleague Olivier Gaspard, special correspondent of RTBF in Sweden.

Sébastien Ogier, one of Neuville's competitors for the league title, took advantage of a loophole in the rules to claim 'more points than expected'. "The rules exist to be exploited to the maximum, it proves that all the points will be important in the final count.There were three to play the title last year.We are 5 or 6 drivers this season, each point will count. the same if it's necessary, "concluded our countryman on the subject.
https://www.rtbf.be/sport/moteurs/rallye/wrc/detail_neuville-on-est-5-ou-6-a-jouer-le-titre-cette-saison-chacun-point-comptera?id=9843583

[dimviii]

Gilsoul has a bit different view

Although he was a bit mocked Sebastien Ogier tweeting that he was very happy, he took the broom in Mexico, Nicolas Gilsoul began by defending him on his bad mood of the weekend.
"His frustration is legitimate," says teammate Thierry Neuville. "The weather conditions did not work in his favor. But above all it is not normal that we pass a historic rally between the two passages of the WRC. They use other trajectories and this increases the difficulty for those who open. I understand they are doing this for a cost issue, but at this level of the world, with points and a title at stake, this should not be allowed. "
The Liege also explained exactly what happened with Seb Ogier during the last stage. "As in life or business, there are rules and everyone uses them in his own way, although in some cases it can convey a more or less interesting image. That Sebastien has chosen to point 25 minutes late, being at the limit of the out of race, to benefit from a better starting position is one thing. It is acceptable. But what disturbs me a bit is that the organizers did not send him to the place where he should have. Since everything was already organized for TV, they made him wait and leave after us when he should have started three or four cars in front of logically. The promoters have all the rights today and so they have clearly increased their advantage. This is not normal and it must be reviewed in the future because otherwise it is royal casino. There is no rule for that. It is left to their free appreciation. In Mexico if they want, they can let two or three local first if they wish because there is not much WRC. But that's not normal. We are in the World Championship and we need a strict and equivalent rule for everyone everywhere. "
Nicolas is absolutely right. This is a point to modify and settle as soon as possible by Yves Matton, the new FIA rally manager.

http://www.dhnet.be/sports/moteurs/nicolas-gilsoul-le-promoteur-a-avantage-ogier-dans-la-power-stage-5a89afa2cd70f0681dc5d24d?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[Myrvold]

Thanks, useful info. I'm like an aborigine in computers and technology and so. Don't ask me about Mathematics and Physics.

That's a deal, but only if you don't ask me about it either! When we started to have letters in Maths I fell off! ^^,


at second paragraph,Neuvilles opinion about Ogiers case.

"It's nice to follow Loeb and Ogier on the list of non-Scandinavian winners here, it's a win like any other because they're all important, the start of the season is way better than last season. what follows is a little more complicated, we already know that we are going to suffer from the sweeping in Mexico, to go looking for a podium or even the top 5 will be difficult.On the regular, we can do 7th or 8th I think. There is some asphalt during some special stages, I hope to be competitive there, we will make sure to leave Mexico with a small lead in the championship to open the road to the Tour de Corse, "Neuville detailed at the microphone. our colleague Olivier Gaspard, special correspondent of RTBF in Sweden.

Sébastien Ogier, one of Neuville's competitors for the league title, took advantage of a loophole in the rules to claim 'more points than expected'. "The rules exist to be exploited to the maximum, it proves that all the points will be important in the final count.There were three to play the title last year.We are 5 or 6 drivers this season, each point will count. the same if it's necessary, "concluded our countryman on the subject.
https://www.rtbf.be/sport/moteurs/rallye/wrc/detail_neuville-on-est-5-ou-6-a-jouer-le-titre-cette-saison-chacun-point-comptera?id=9843583

Yup, Ogier have opened a can of worms now.

Interesting to see Mikkelsen mentioning that they talked about it while they were at VW as well, but that VW (Capito) told them a strict no about such things.

[stefanvv]

When we started to have letters in Maths I fell off! ^^,

Yeah I know, it's hard life.

[electroliquid]

Some thoughts about starting order. Why we need reverse start order anyway? If I understand correctly it was made, that nobody lose some seconds on purpose, to get better starting position next day? Now, we have witnessed some situation with clever (or unfair) choosing position for starting stage. If fastest driver always being first on road, after regroup for last days results, we would never had this Sweden situation, everyone has to in front for some stages. Of course this work better if it be 3 full days of stages (well, it depends on itinerary, stage lengths and etc.)
Sweden situation was because history cars, but on other rallies, where starting order is crucial, it, kind of, is unfair. Let say we have 4 teams, with 3 drivers, and 8 of them all is on +/- same level, and we have 2 specialists, so 1 in order will be 10th after 1st day, 10 in order will be 1st, next day we have reverse order, and 10th will start 1st, and leader will start 10th, so his lead will grow again.
So why there isn't anymore, that fastest driver of rally is always 1st on read?

[AnttiL]

So why there isn't anymore, that fastest driver of rally is always 1st on read?

Remember the late 90's when drivers were stopping at the ends of last stages to drop back some positions for better road position? That's why.

There would be no point to push for win on Friday when all of that would be destroyed on Saturday by opening the road.

[electroliquid]

Remember the late 90's when drivers were stopping at the ends of last stages to drop back some positions for better road position? That's why.

There would be no point to push for win on Friday when all of that would be destroyed on Saturday by opening the road.

Net really remember that, but I know what you mean. Maybe points after each day like ERC would be solution?

[moto99]

When Loeb ran like a coward from Ogier in 2013, he left a bunch of butthurt fans who now try to discredit Ogier whenever they can.

[A FONDO]

When Loeb ran like a coward from Ogier in 2013, he left a bunch of butthurt fans who now try to discredit Ogier whenever they can.

Memories from Monte 2015 are still alive.

[dimviii]

When Loeb ran like a coward from Ogier in 2013, he left a bunch of butthurt fans who now try to discredit Ogier whenever they can.

coward and world champion lol

[ESTR]

coward and world champion lol

Haha real cowards are VW.

[tbtstt]

Smart move I'd say. And even if people do think this is underhand, it's daft to point the finger directly at Ogier. Do you really think he'd pull a trick like this without the approval of the team?

Four more points that he probably wouldn't have picked up without the late check in and a bit of damage limitation to what was otherwise a miserable weekend thanks to the running order. Some people don't seem to like it, but it's the mark of a smart driver backed by a smart team. And smart drivers win Championships...

[mknight]

It obviously isn't 'entirely within the rules' if he is penalised 4 minutes for it.

It shows that the penalty isn't enough relative to powerstage points to prevent people breaking the rules though.

That's actually a perfectly correct view.

Yes it's against the rules, just that the penalty doesn't outweight the benefits. This comes from the penalty being designed for "normal" points per position, while the powerstage points turn this around.

Therefore FIA will quite likely change the penalties specifically to hurt on powerstage. Ex. later/early timecontrols on Sunday will give you powestage time penalties.




Gilsoul has a bit different view
But above all it is not normal that we pass a historic rally between the two passages of the WRC. They use other trajectories and this increases the difficulty for those who open. I understand they are doing this for a cost issue, but at this level of the world, with points and a title at stake, this should not be allowed. "


Just about all WRC rallies have either historic or "local" rally doing the stages before, or 80+ cars in the field that change the roads between the passes. It makes a difference on quite many events.

The specific situation here is the wider/narrower tracks and narrower tires allowed for historic in Sweden. Gilsouls solution of "banning" organizers from having longer entry list (= more money from drivers and more spectators) is way over the top crazy. And if they do this for Sweden only Swedesh organizers will complain that others can do this.

[René]

When Loeb ran like a coward from Ogier in 2013, he left a bunch of butthurt fans who now try to discredit Ogier whenever they can.

Ogier doesn't need anyone to be discredited, he's self-sufficient.

[spiderem]

well, lets talk again at the end of the season. maybe those 4 points will keep the championship undecided until the final round, which in my opinion will be great as it hasn't happen for many years now... i know ogier is a very arrogant and annoying person to watch, but you can't blame him for being honest and showing his frustration as a true competitor he is.

and to add, mikkelsen smiling and saying "we are fighting like tom and jerry", i'm sorry sunshine but it's not with this kind of fighting spirit that you will become world champion. No offense.

[René]

Beyond the indisputable fact that Ogier is a great driver. From the beginning, He has destroyed his image with a despicable attitude of incessantly pushing cynicism with sarcastic remarks. Stunning!
As for the rules, they have been respected but unfortunately used for purposes other than sports in spirit.

[Co-driven]

As far as I understand, Ogier din't break any rules.

But the fact that he hide behind a house, leaving the main road, doesn't mean that he left the itinerary of the rally?

(I am just asking a question here, I am not trying to imply that he should have been penalised for that).

[L555MAT]

Hate the game not the player. Ogier hasn't broken anyrules. Everyone needs to untwist their knickers and move on. It makes the season more interesting.

[AnttiK7]

I fully understand Ford's tactics. When I was watching the final stage and realised that the games were about to happen when Ogier didn't appear, it brought a smile to my face. Not because I am a great fan of team orders/road order games as such, but because it is something a bit harsh and clever you kind of want to see these teams doing when trying to gain the tiniest advantage over each other. And like pointed out already, it was very mild compared to some of the games that have happened in the past in WRC. I was reminded of Rautenbach waiting 13 minutes on the side of the road in 2009 Poland for Loeb to gain one extra Championship point. But unlike with Loeb, these team games also go well with the image of Ogier which some like and some don't, I like it. It would be more boring if he always behaved himself. Grönholm said in some interview a couple of years ago Loeb was actually a really nice guy, but he didn't have anything good at all to say about Ogier as a person. But for me as a viewer it just creates that extra something buzz if a World Champion behaves a bit cocky or is a bit rough on the edges. I don't mind it, like I don't mind well-behaving Champions either for that matter. They might have won all the Championships for the past 14 years between them (!) but in this regard Loeb and Ogier are completely different characters and I think it's just great.

Second rally of the season is a bit early for these games, but I think Ford, like I do, sees Ogier as their only realistic chance for the World Championship already at this point of the year. At least I would be very surprised to see Evans mounting a serious Championship challenge this year. There is simply nothing yet that would suggest Elfyn being able to perform on a consistently high level over a whole season. So essentially, he is number 2 to Ogier at the moment. If such an event occured early this season already where Evans leads on the final day and Ogier is second, I wouldn't be surprised if Ford tells Evans to let Ogier by. I would actually be more surprised if they wouldn't do that. If we look in the past, M-Sport has potentially thrown drivers titles away by not starting to play these games early enough in the season. Ford let Latvala win ahead of Hirvonen in Sardinia 2009, Hirvonen lost the title to Loeb by one point at the end of the year. And by Sardinia 2009 Latvala was well out of Championship contention, having had a disastrous start for that season. Citroen's own games to favour Loeb and Latvala himself further helped Loeb's Championship cause in Poland. Also in 2007 Ford let Hirvonen win ahead of Grönholm in Norway, although Hirvonen was quite a clear number 2 driver for that season and Grönholm ended up having a tight Championship battle with Loeb. Maybe Malcolm doesn't want a repeat of these years.

Anyway, the main problem here is the regulations which make these games possible and the power stage concept itself. I have never been a fan of the power stage, although I understand the added excitement it can bring to some events to see drivers pushing maximum attack on the final stage, which wouldn't happen in some situations. But on some other events it's completely unnecessary. Also in modern WRC you probably get more final stages in a calendar year with tight fights for a position than not. All in all it just feels artificial to me to award five points for winning a one stage time attack. It goes against the concept of rallying to drive fast but consistently over a long distance. Anyone can do one short stage fast and just see if they are lucky enough to make it to the end without making any mistakes. But to do 20-30 stages consistently fast without any mistakes is a much more interesting challenge and what the sport is about. Even Formula 1 has never done anything as "plastic" yet in terms of handing out World Championship points. We are yet to see points being awarded for the fastest final lap of the race, but maybe Liberty Media is already working on it if they have been following WRC in the past few years.

[A FONDO]

I say, reduce Power Stage points back to 3-2-1 now VW is gone.

[Kaps]

Well, AnttiK7, that's a nice change!

I agree with what you said here 100%!

A FONDO, I also agree with what you said! Or, even better, I say let's scrap the Power stage points altogether!

[COD]

It was both. Of course he gained an advantage, but not good for the sport.
Anyone remember, when Sainz stopped just before finish in Australia to get a better startposition (199?).he penalised for unsportmanship behaviour or similar. This could be applied now.
But he got away with it. I think it was stupid, because him being so much fasterthan anyone else in VW days was the reason the rule was changed

[seb_sh]

It was both. Of course he gained an advantage, but not good for the sport.
Anyone remember, when Sainz stopped just before finish in Australia to get a better startposition (199?).he penalised for unsportmanship behaviour or similar. This could be applied now.
But he got away with it. I think it was stupid, because him being so much fasterthan anyone else in VW days was the reason the rule was changed

Sainz was excluded because he stopped between the yellow and red markers at the time control at the end of the stage. Other drivers slowed but not stopped and didn't get penalized. But slowing down to get a better road position was common in those days and imo just as wrong from what Ogier did if not worse. New rules fixed that behavior, and I think they need to have a better think about PS rules too. Less points or penalties for starting out of order to actual PS time would work. As it stands it's fair game.

[TMorel]

Am now thinking back to one very dusty event, final stage and we had a handful of seconds over the car in front.
We shuffle forwards, the codriver ahead gets out to talk to the marshal handling time cards - unusual as you normally stay strapped in the car, and ooooph she stumbles and falls to the ground holding a twisted ankle.
Complaining of feeling faint she unzips her overalls to “get some fresh air”.
After a couple of minutes she thanks all the marshals who have been VERY attentive to this half nekkid very attractive codriver, she zips herself back up, winks back at us, hops back in the car and gets their start time - and of course, all that dust has now settled. Off they set making the most of a now clear stage.
Now, I’m not saying Nicolas Gilsoul needs to flaunt his manliness in Mexico, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do to get an advantage.

[greencroft]

Second rally of the season is a bit early for these games, but I think Ford, like I do, sees Ogier as their only realistic chance for the World Championship already at this point of the year.



I agree with much you say but in terms of being early for such games, in championships it is always in my mind that every point scored, whether in Round 1 or the final one is worth the same at the end of the year. Those 4 points could easily be the difference between winning the championship or not. I have much admiration for M-Sport for working out that this was possible in order to give their no 1 driver the best chance of points. Fast driving can win rallies but also smart thinking can win titles.

[greencroft]

Am now thinking back to one very dusty event, final stage and we had a handful of seconds over the car in front.
We shuffle forwards, the codriver ahead gets out to talk to the marshal handling time cards - unusual as you normally stay strapped in the car, and ooooph she stumbles and falls to the ground holding a twisted ankle.
Complaining of feeling faint she unzips her overalls to “get some fresh air”.
After a couple of minutes she thanks all the marshals who have been VERY attentive to this half nekkid very attractive codriver, she zips herself back up, winks back at us, hops back in the car and gets their start time - and of course, all that dust has now settled. Off they set making the most of a now clear stage.
Now, I’m not saying Nicolas Gilsoul needs to flaunt his manliness in Mexico, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do to get an advantage.

The male version of that move that I have witnessed in the UK is a nav who kept a plastic box in the car which he filled with mashed up bread and baked beans. As he pulled up to the control he would stuff a load in his mouth ready to feign a bout of nausea out the car door, get out for some fresh air, then back in ready for the stage with a nice dust free gap!

[steve.mandzij]

Regarding the advantage Ogier gained, it's nothing anybody anywhere over 10th place could do to gain points effectively, because you'd lose the points from any other position with smaller gaps ahead and behind. However, it does raise another issue: the tenth placed driver now has a nearly sure way to score more points than 9th or 8th every single time on the PS. Maybe there can't be a rule preventing this that wouldn't exclude the bottom half of point scorers from PS points but it does raise an issue.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[janvanvurpa]

these team games also go well with the image of Ogier which some like and some don't, I like it. It would be more boring if he always behaved himself. Grönholm said in some interview a couple of years ago Loeb was actually a really nice guy, but he didn't have anything good at all to say about Ogier as a person. But for me as a viewer it just creates that extra something buzz if a World Champion behaves a bit cocky or is a bit rough on the edges.

Anyway, the main problem here is the regulations which make these games possible and the power stage concept itself. I have never been a fan of the power stage, although I understand the added excitement it can bring to some events to see drivers pushing maximum attack on the final stage, which wouldn't happen in some situations. But on some other events it's completely unnecessary. Also in modern WRC you probably get more final stages in a calendar year with tight fights for a position than not. All in all it just feels artificial to me to award five points for winning a one stage time attack. It goes against the concept of rallying to drive fast but consistently over a long distance. Anyone can do one short stage fast and just see if they are lucky enough to make it to the end without making any mistakes. But to do 20-30 stages consistently fast without any mistakes is a much more interesting challenge and what the sport is about. Even Formula 1 :snore:has never done anything as "plastic" yet in terms of handing out World Championship points. We are yet to see points being awarded for the fastest final lap of the race, but maybe Liberty Media is already working on it if they have been following WRC in the past few years.

Very good, but if we want to see made up personality conflict and drama we could simply watch the best racing film ever made which is of course (there can be no doubt) Talladega Nights..Sacha Cohen is the perfect Ogier.

[uranium]

Even if he didn't break any rules, it is unsporty. Rules must be changed not to allow such a BS.
I understand that everything is for championship. And it always be like that.
But it ruins the sport. It is commercial contest then.
Next time somebody will throw a bomb to opponent car. Do rules say something that bombs are not allowed?

[bandit12]

Next time somebody will throw a bomb to opponent car. Do rules say something that bombs are not allowed?
1535

[N.O.T]

Next time somebody will throw a bomb to opponent car. Do rules say something that bombs are not allowed?

yes, it falls in the sport defamation category and you get excluded

[macebig]

Arsony is a crime and there are serious consequences for those that break the law.

[danon]

Power Stage tricks & tactics - Ogier in a stealth mode

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oa93JTTxWp7xwvyhG/giphy.gif

[racerx1979]

I guess it all depends on how thing go in Mexico. A lot of us believe in karma right? For Ogier's sake I sure hope he does not believe in karma.

He did not do anything wrong as far as rules are concerned, but some would say it was not good sportsmanship etc. We shall see in two weeks time...

[GravelBen]

He did not do anything wrong as far as rules are concerned...

Yes he did, and he was penalised for that - but the penalty was less than the advantage from breaking the rules.

I'm not sure why people keep saying he wasn't breaking any rules, if he was following the rules there would have been no penalty.

Its a similar situation if a rugby player makes an offside tackle (or other foul) to prevent their opposition from scoring and is penalised for it, they have broken the rules and accepted the punishment but it may be worth it to them if they concede less points from the penalty than they would have from the try. If they do it too many times or its too obvious that its a deliberate cynical foul they can be sent off though, which is a much stronger punishment... I guess we'll see what the stewards do it it happens again.

[Mintexmemory]

This odour of sanctity is getting a bit overpowering! The sport hasn’t been a ‘sport’ any more than F1 for years. Ogier just played the rules and found an advantage that would only probably have worked in his very particular situation. So can we now stop the hypocrisy and talk of karma.

[racerx1979]

Well he paid the price for breaking the rules then.. fair is fair. He gained something out of it while taking a penalty too. That's what the rules allowed him to do.

What I was trying to say in my previous post (poorly) is that we will see if what he did will be of any benefit. It all depends on his performance in Mexico.

[stefanvv]

Yes he did, and he was penalised for that - but the penalty was less than the advantage from breaking the rules.

I'm not sure why people keep saying he wasn't breaking any rules, if he was following the rules there would have been no penalty.

And he consciously accept the rules to turn them in his favor. Its a matter of perception is he braking rule and what rules he is braking. Yes, the rules allow crew to start later with the given time penalty, yes the rules imply the crew will receive penalty for it. It is all accepted by all, the penalty and the result. That's it, and that's all. Is it sportsmanship, why not? For who is it unfair? Aren't all of them under the same rules? Is it fair to face unfair competition rules as it is with the road condition? How's that sportsmanship? Please.....EDI

EDIT: Should we open another thread for organizers breaking the "sportsmanship" rules, or it is all about about we all hate Ogier thing?

[GravelBen]

Well he paid the price for breaking the rules then.. fair is fair. He gained something out of it while taking a penalty too. That's what the rules allowed him to do.

What I was trying to say in my previous post (poorly) is that we will see if what he did will be of any benefit. It all depends on his performance in Mexico.

Yes, I agree with that. The question to ask is probably whether the rules should allow that to happen.

I don't think we wil know until the end of the season though really - if he wins the championship by 4 points or less he will certainly think it was worthwhile.

[cosmin_sb]

Is it fair for Neuville to let Ogier to be the first cars in Mexic for the first day? Neuville can obtain 30s penalty for late check in CO and let Ogier to be first

[AnttiL]

Is it fair for Neuville to let Ogier to be the first cars in Mexic for the first day? Neuville can obtain 30s penalty for late check in CO and let Ogier to be first

It's Neuville's choice. If he thinks he'll lose more than 30 seconds driving first, let him do it.

[A FONDO]

It's Neuville's choice. If he thinks he'll lose more than 30 seconds driving first, let him do it.

But when Ogier sees this he can also decide to wait and not start before him. He will always have 20 seconds less penalty :D

[danon]

^ ^
^ ^

https://media.giphy.com/media/TaNiLOpQhqhA4/giphy.gif

[nealst10]

Yeah, it's not like all of a sudden most drivers became as good as Ogier and can win rallies. The road conditions though are all the same.