WRC Driver Conduct On Road Sections - Case Tänak at Monte Carlo

[JJFrentzen]

I said I didn't approve of Ogier's driving, especially if the slide was self induced but that's so slow speed that I wouldn't make headlines about it.

I think Tanak was sliding next to spectators even slower (main topic case).

[Mr C1412]

I work for the FIA. Jean Todt just told me that he’s gong to block your IP address for constantly wasting their time

[danon]

... the ball is firmly rolling...

https://media.giphy.com/media/zBK9W4SAmBXMY/giphy.gif

[onemanband]

Thanks for the video! This actually only makes it look worse for Tänak unfortunately. Pay attention when Ogier gives some sideways action from 0:20 onwards on a road section. Tänak drives the same bit of road section from 1:20 onwards as if he is on a stage and not on a public road. Yeah I'm not approving of Ogier's driving either, but this just makes it look worse for Tänak. I guess a lot of that is that they want to desperately keep some temperature in the tires and brakes, but it doesn't make it ok. It's good to have more footage though, thanks!

https://media.giphy.com/media/Zb4Cwdpub5g0U/giphy.gif

[GravelBen]

https://youtu.be/5O-INzThaZ0?t=11 you should report some other drives too, seems like sideways is quite popular on road sections.


Thanks for the video! This actually only makes it look worse for Tänak unfortunately. Pay attention when Ogier gives some sideways action from 0:20 onwards on a road section. Tänak drives the same bit of road section from 1:20 onwards as if he is on a stage and not on a public road

Sorry but I really have to disagree with that, it seems like you're only seeing what you want to see to justify yourself against the people who disagree with you. To me Ogier looks clearly faster, more sideways and more committed at 0:20 than Tanak on the same road at 1:20.

[AnttiK7]

What are you actually getting out of this thread? I find your 'contribution' to this forum so far utterly bizarre. Of all the things in rallying you could talk about, all the subjects you could have contributed to or joined to discuss, I can't get why any fan would be so solely focused on this subject.

It'd makes more sense if this was some next level trolling exercise by NOT in disguise...

I only joined this forum again to talk about this thing, nothing else. My goal was to raise discussion about an issue that has potential to become serious for WRC in the future. But the reason I haven't contributed on this forum for years is all too clear to see in this topic. The level of name calling that the conversation descends into very rapidly is quite depressing. For some reason it's ok on this forum to personally attack other members rather than actually only talk about the subject. I mean I know it's not politically correct for me to post a topic like this on here and I know what to expect. But still...come on. Silly, often sexist and childish remarks, coming by people hiding cowardly behind anonymity, to someone whose name has been essentially published here for everyone. And I know this is the way of this forum for years now and why I don't spend my time here on a regular basis. Now don't get me wrong, there are people here who actually put thought into their posts and not all of them agree with my views in this topic either. But that intelligent discussion is drowned in the nonsense in between. Another problem I have is that I post something and then a few pages later it has been twisted into something completely else that I did not say at all and then I (stupidly) spend my time correcting myself and the cycle goes on like that. But that's lesser of an issue.

I see I also have to still clarify my comments on the second video. So to recap, Ogier slides in an excessive manner with other cars nearby which I don't approve of, if the slide was deliberately induced. He slows down/stops immediately after the slide, maybe when he sees the camera. Tänak slides a bit less but drives the same section with a more committed attitude and speed, as if he is on a stage and not a road section. Ogier's driving is wrong for me in that video, Tänak's driving is wrong as well, full stop. Mikkelsen looks like he is trying to do some kind of low key warming up exercise which is not even worth mentioning really compared to the other things. For a detailed analysis and driver comparison, I would need to see everyone's full liaison onboards. Who knows, maybe some of these guys go all crazy when they know no one is watching, but for example Tänak doesn't mind showing off for the people/cameras.

[maailmameister]

You're like a broken gramophone. Repeat for the same thing all the time. I do not know if you're stupid or you play a fool. Get your life and do not sit just behind your computer. The real life is not so black and white.

[MartinMK]

Please, go see some rally in reality, they do this warm up on every stage before going to the start of stage, everyone. So go complain about it. I have to check, may have some footage from rally Sweden where Ogier and others doing it on really narrow road.
And now there is footage of other drivers sliding around i want to see you going to report it to FIA too, as you said you would do.

[kolin]

Dear AnttiK7 please go home and sut up

[AnttiK7]

Please, go see some rally in reality, they do this warm up on every stage before going to the start of stage, everyone.

I have seen it first hand live as well and still doesn't make me approve of it. Unless it is literally a quick warm-up immediately before start line and not a big warm up session through the whole liaison.

[GravelBen]

So to recap, Ogier slides in an excessive manner with other cars nearby which I don't approve of, if the slide was deliberately induced. He slows down/stops immediately after the slide, maybe when he sees the camera. Tänak slides a bit less but drives the same section with a more committed attitude and speed, as if he is on a stage and not a road section.

This still sounds like you're watching a different video to the rest of us? Ogier has a much more committed attitude and speed through that left-hander, and you can hear that they have both lifted off by the time they pass the camera.

[JUF]

Dear AnttiK7 please go home and sut up

Oh dear, why people can´t just accept other opinions? You don´t have to agree with AnttiK7 and others who say that Tänak should be punished, but to say someone should go home and shut up, is really embarrassing... :(

[sindroms]

One thing springs to my mind reading all this endless... There are people in the world who are always right because they think they are right. They always know what is right and what is wrong. They know it so well that they are ready "to take out sword and start crusade". You can't dare to object them in anyway because the goal is so noble. If you do so you automatically become person who don't understand anything in this world.

[maailmameister]

Oh dear, why people can´t just accept other opinions? You don´t have to agree with AnttiK7 and others who say that Tänak should be punished, but to say someone should go home and shut up, is really embarrassing... :(
This is not just a different opinion we are talking about here. This man sent complaints to the FIA. It went beyond any limit, and that's why people are angry.

[AnttiK7]

This is not just a different opinion we are talking about here. This man sent complaints to the FIA. It went beyond any limit, and that's why people are angry.

Which I have every right to do if I want to.


This still sounds like you're watching a different video to the rest of us? Ogier has a much more committed attitude and speed through that left-hander, and you can hear that they have both lifted off by the time they pass the camera.

First of all it seems to me you are confusing Tänak and Mikkelsen because Tänak most certainly hasn't lifted off by the time he reaches the camera. Note that Tänak's driving on the road section begins at 1:20 in the video, Ogier is followed by Mikkelsen in the Hyundai. But here's some data. I timed the moment from which Ogier appears into view in the left hander to the time he reaches the camera at about 6 seconds. Tänak does the same distance in about 4 seconds so in that stretch of road his average speed is almost twice the speed of Ogier. Still, I don't approve of the kind of slides either on road section that Ogier shows, I definitely agree with that. But like I said, the speed he does on the video is barely over half of what Tänak is doing.

[drive]

so both sliding - you agree, both below speed limit - you agree. To punish both - you dont agree as if one slide is 'safer'??? or you wanted to punish Ott and finally other video came out and now you would do anything to 'save' others and still punish Ott? or dear or dear...

[Tarmop]

You weren`t present and can`t tell anything about the speed. Measuring something from a youtube video isn`t correct. You can measure one body organ like that. And yes, you are correct, it`s everyones right to be a ****, but that doesn`t mean others have to agree and accept.

[swanny]

27 pages...:rolleyes:

[Allez Andruet]

This man sent complaints to the FIA. It went beyond any limit, and that's why people are angry.
But if there's nothing wrong with Tänak's antics, then why to even care about someone sending a complaint (if you want to call it that) to the FIA?

[AnttiK7]

You weren`t present and can`t tell anything about the speed. Measuring something from a youtube video isn`t correct.

I can't measure their speed in km/h, but I can measure their relative speed to each other with quite good accuracy and that is what I was talking about.

[tbtstt]

This thread surely isn't serious, is it? As a rally spectator I think its brilliant to see the cars/drivers putting on a little show for the rally fans on the road sections. Yeah, absolutely reckless behavior isn't appropriate, but a little slide for some guys at the side of the road? That's awesome!

This sort of thing has been happening since stage rallying began: the only difference now is that everyone has a camera phone to record the antics and the internet has enabled it be shared with the world.

[danon]

https://media.giphy.com/media/xUOwFVmLQ7uzJ5fK5q/giphy.gif

[GravelBen]

First of all it seems to me you are confusing Tänak and Mikkelsen because Tänak most certainly hasn't lifted off by the time he reaches the camera. Note that Tänak's driving on the road section begins at 1:20 in the video, Ogier is followed by Mikkelsen in the Hyundai. But here's some data. I timed the moment from which Ogier appears into view in the left hander to the time he reaches the camera at about 6 seconds. Tänak does the same distance in about 4 seconds so in that stretch of road his average speed is almost twice the speed of Ogier. Still, I don't approve of the kind of slides either on road section that Ogier shows, I definitely agree with that. But like I said, the speed he does on the video is barely over half of what Tänak is doing.

Watch it again and listen carefully to the engine - Ogier slows down much earlier for sure (maybe because he had a big slide and decided to back off), Tanak accelerates out of the corner initially but you can hear the engine on the overrun as he passes the camera, it wouldn't sound like that if he was still accelerating.

I wasn't talking about faster average speed, just the speed and commitment while sliding through the corner - Tanak does accelerate exiting the corner and is going faster past the camera at the end.

Of course if you're trying to say one is more dangerous than the other, Ogier is drifting past a van full of people and Tanak has a clear road as far as we can tell ;)

In general though I think its what we call 'a storm in a teacup' on this side of the world... why am I even still replying?

[AnttiK7]

This thread surely isn't serious, is it? As a rally spectator I think its brilliant to see the cars/drivers putting on a little show for the rally fans on the road sections. Yeah, absolutely reckless behavior isn't appropriate, but a little slide for some guys at the side of the road? That's awesome!

This sort of thing has been happening since stage rallying began: the only difference now is that everyone has a camera phone to record the antics and the internet has enabled it be shared with the world.

I respect and understand your point of view but my view on that is that just because something has 'always' been the case, doesn't mean it should continue to be so. And that applies to many things in life. The internet and camera phones you mention make this kind of behaviour all the more problematic. I see it as unnecessary baggage for the sport in 2018.

[AL14]

Can a moderator close this thread and end the agony please?

[EstWRC]

Can a moderator close this thread and end the agony please?

Amen

[JJFrentzen]

But here's some data. I timed the moment from which Ogier appears into view in the left hander to the time he reaches the camera at about 6 seconds. Tänak does the same distance in about 4 seconds so in that stretch of road his average speed is almost twice the speed of Ogier.

Ogier is twice slower cuz he is sliding and Tanak is going straight. Physics.

[Franky]

Can a moderator close this thread and end the agony please?

I want to see where it ends up. Khalid Al-Qassimi will become the WDC?

[STI69]

amen

just bloody stop posting to this topic and it will die!

[Jakem]

I want to see where it ends up. Khalid Al-Qassimi will become the WDC?
No in Antti eyes everybody can be WDC but not Tanak because he has some personal anger to him. For him Tanak slides are much more worser and dangerous, he already measures the time on the videos. Doesnt matter that Ogier slides while other car is driving opposite direction. Only tanak is bad...
I think he allready cut out only Tanak form video and sent it to FIA.
I think you also must speed up this video before you send it out, looks even more dangerous.

[janvanvurpa]

I only joined this forum again to talk about this thing, nothing else. My goal was to raise discussion about an issue that has potential to become serious for WRC in the future. But the reason I haven't contributed on this forum for years is all too clear to see in this topic. The level of name calling that the conversation descends into very rapidly is quite depressing. For some reason it's ok on this forum to personally attack other members rather than actually only talk about the subject. I mean I know it's not politically correct for me to post a topic like this on here and I know what to expect. But still...come on. Silly, often sexist and childish remarks, coming by people hiding cowardly behind anonymity, to someone whose name has been essentially published here for everyone. And I know this is the way of this forum for years now and why I don't spend my time here on a regular basis. Now don't get me wrong, there are people here who actually put thought into their posts and not all of them agree with my views in this topic either. But that intelligent discussion is drowned in the nonsense in between. Another problem I have is that I post something and then a few pages later it has been twisted into something completely else that I did not say at all and then I (stupidly) spend my time correcting myself and the cycle goes on like that. But that's lesser of an issue.

I see I also have to still clarify my comments on the second video. So to recap, Ogier slides in an excessive manner with other cars nearby which I don't approve of, if the slide was deliberately induced. He slows down/stops immediately after the slide, maybe when he sees the camera. Tänak slides a bit less but drives the same section with a more committed attitude and speed, as if he is on a stage and not a road section. Ogier's driving is wrong for me in that video, Tänak's driving is wrong as well, full stop. Mikkelsen looks like he is trying to do some kind of low key warming up exercise which is not even worth mentioning really compared to the other things. For a detailed analysis and driver comparison, I would need to see everyone's full liaison onboards. Who knows, maybe some of these guys go all crazy when they know no one is watching, but for example Tänak doesn't mind showing off for the people/cameras.

You claim to talk of "an intelligent discussion"...Nothing in the entire subject and way you have gone on in this discussion is or has been intelligent...logically since the subject and manner of discourse in nonsensical, there can be no logical discussion...
Your nuancing and basically blabbering about why ALL the other things we have seen are naughty but not as naughty as the poor soon to be fired, arrested and thrown in prison Tanak, we cannot take you seriously..

You talk of discssion yet throughout this discussion you answer questions not asked and ignore genuine questions posed clearly to you---in a futile attempt at establishing what is called "affiliation"....Nope, no answers, just continue your 1 man outrage and parsing...

Your comments about others "hiding behind" fake names is either trolling or more signs of a mind in trouble..
Some how your fake name is OK and all the others are bad fake names because somehow I don't think your real name is AnttiK7.....Antti OK, but you expect us to believe K7? FAKE!


More logic fail.

I believe my real and full name and even address should be just below, down V there.

Give it up....you are embarrassing us all.. You "discuss" like a Trump supporter, and that is a giant insult to everybody's intelligence

[Hartusvuori]

This is much better than the wornout WRC vs. Gr B discussion. Imagine if this becomes a cyclic conversation :-)

I agree with Antti, it's childish and ill-mannered to stop discussing and start calling names. As a Finn I feel like I'm not entitled to any critical opinion anymore on Tänak, just because I'm a Finn - or at least others get a right to misinterpret. I hope there's be forum members and other members of rallying community that could see that some of us enjoy and appreaciate the sport beyond nationalities. And John, if you haven't figured out AnttiK7's real name by now, well, that's your mistake.

[Jakem]

As a Finn I feel like I'm not entitled to any critical opinion anymore on Tänak, just because I'm a Finn

You still do not understand, problem is that for Antti only Tanak is bad and he need to send it to FIA. While there is also other video with Ogier, but still Tanak is much more dangerous because Antti counted seconds...he sais its not national, but what it is then, please say?
They bouth are sliding Ogier even more and cars coming opposite side.

[AnttiK7]

This is much better than the wornout WRC vs. Gr B discussion. Imagine if this becomes a cyclic conversation :-)

I agree with Antti, it's childish and ill-mannered to stop discussing and start calling names. As a Finn I feel like I'm not entitled to any critical opinion anymore on Tänak, just because I'm a Finn - or at least others get a right to misinterpret. I hope there's be forum members and other members of rallying community that could see that some of us enjoy and appreaciate the sport beyond nationalities. And John, if you haven't figured out AnttiK7's real name by now, well, that's your mistake.

Thank you for that, I feel the same way about the whole nationality thing. I feel my opinion is disqualified only because of my nationality, even when anyone who really knows me would probably have a good laugh at the suggestion of me as a nationalistic person. Also I find it really boring when people generalise other people based on their nationalities. I have said elsewhere in this thread already, Ott Tänak beat his team mates Latvala and Lappi fair and square on the stages. Latvala was clearly slower and Lappi very inconsistent. Tänak's drive on the stages was very impressive especially given that it was his first drive in the team. But this topic is not about that. I am talking about his behaviour outside the stages which I personally consider damaging for the sport of rallying, full stop.

[Myrvold]

What's up with all the direct comments on persons here?

[Hartusvuori]

You still do not understand, problem is that for Antti only Tanak is bad and he need to send it to FIA. While there is also other video with Ogier, but still Tanak is much more dangerous because Antti counted seconds...he sais its not national, but what it is then, please say?
They bouth are sliding Ogier even more and cars coming opposite side.

The way I read Antti's writing "Still, I don't approve of the kind of slides either on road section that Ogier shows, I definitely agree with that", is that he doesn't approve Ogier's antics either.

[Tarmop]

But he doesn`t want to hang Ogier as an example, but only Tänak and measures speed and angle and threat to bystanders through videos.:D

[Jakem]

The way I read Antti's writing "Still, I don't approve of the kind of slides either on road section that Ogier shows, I definitely agree with that", is that he doesn't approve Ogier's antics either.

Yes but for Ogier he only sais he do not approve. But he wants that guy who needs to be punished by FIA is only Tanak like example for others. If he really care about road safety and wrc in big picture, he would collect all this material form all driver and send it to FIA, not start to count second whose slide was faster. Somebody allready asked did he also sent Ogier using mobile on road sectoin, but he didnt send.
Lets say we have 10 killers and we but only one in prison as an exaple for others. We all now every of ten are killers but we punish only one poor guy.. I do not have nothing more to say, dont want to waste my time on this shit any more.

[cali]

The way I read Antti's writing "Still, I don't approve of the kind of slides either on road section that Ogier shows, I definitely agree with that", is that he doesn't approve Ogier's antics either.But only reported about Tänak... He doesn't approve Ogier's behaviour but apparantely it's better because... and did not report about it. Double standards I call it. What bugs me is very hypocritical attitude by the OP.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[argomees]

This forum is going to implode if Tänak wins in Jyväskyla.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

[AnttiK7]

But he doesn`t want to hang Ogier as an example, but only Tänak and measures speed and angle and threat to bystanders through videos.:D

Yesterday I was only aware of the original Tänak video. And right now today I still believe it's by far the worst example of road driving of the lot that we have here so far from 2018 Monte Carlo Rally. Change Ogier with Tänak in the original video and I wouldn't change my opinion one iota. The second video makes Tänak look worse to me simply because it's two out of two road driving videos I have seen of him from this rally now where he seems to pay no regard to road traffic rules. By the way you also have the same freedom as me to contact FIA or anyone else yourself if you want.

[Tarmop]

But didn`t you see Ogier dangerously overtaking a bus? It was in the same video, but still, 2 different situations. And using his phone in wrc live? Thats 3 different situations. 2<3...put it in your report with all others and atleast you are being honest/fair.

[spiderem]

30 pages and counting...

[AnttiK7]

But didn`t you see Ogier making a dangerous overtake from a bus? It was in the same video, but still, 2 different situations. And using his phone in wrc live? Thats 3 different situations. 2<3...

I honestly feel making headlines about the incidents you mentioned would be over reaction. The only one even worth considering is the excessive, but very slow speed sliding, if it was intentional that is, because we can't even tell that from the video. Like I said, maybe Ogier is smart enough to stop playing around when he sees someone filming, who knows.

What we can tell though clearly from the videos is that Tänak is carrying considerable speed, throwing his car into the corners and doing powerslides on public roads, there is no dispute about that. And like I said earlier, the only way to give an honest comparison between everyone's road driving would be to have access and analyse everyone's onboards from liaisons. From the very little we have seen so far, Tänak's driving has been the worst and most damaging for rallying in my eyes. With this message I want to conclude myself from going in circles about the severity and comparison between Ogier's and Tänak's driving, we agree to disagree.

[drive]

Yesterday I was only aware of the original Tänak video. And right now today I still believe it's by far the worst example of road driving of the lot that we have here so far from 2018 Monte Carlo Rally. Change Ogier with Tänak in the original video and I wouldn't change my opinion one iota. The second video makes Tänak look worse to me simply because it's two out of two road driving videos I have seen of him from this rally now where he seems to pay no regard to road traffic rules. By the way you also have the same freedom as me to contact FIA or anyone else yourself if you want.

maybe one bitcoin would make you report Ogier and others also? :)

[RaunoK]

Yesterday I was only aware of the original Tänak video. And right now today I still believe it's by far the worst example of road driving of the lot that we have here so far from 2018 Monte Carlo Rally. Change Ogier with Tänak in the original video and I wouldn't change my opinion one iota. The second video makes Tänak look worse to me simply because it's two out of two road driving videos I have seen of him from this rally now where he seems to pay no regard to road traffic rules. By the way you also have the same freedom as me to contact FIA or anyone else yourself if you want.

Just admit it, you're a f*ing hypocrite.

1997 (!!!) Redelmeier and Tibshirani study showed that the risk of collision while using mobile phone was 4 TIMES higher than when mobile phone was not in use. And the phones back in 1997 demanded lot less attention than the ones we have today, so that number might be even higher today. Using mobile phones while driving is clearly illegal under French jurisdiction. Ogier was using phone on the road section, and as you can read from the above, it's neither safe or legal, yet you choose to completely ignore it because you're "a bit of a fan". Ogier and Mikkelsen were caught on tape drifting on the road section just like Tänak, but you choose to ignore it, because their drifts seem "more safe" to you. Can't you see any logical flaws in here?

PS. If you really want to promote safety, start with complaining to FIA about champagne on the podium. What message does it give if drivers drink champagne after the powerstage, but have to drive back to service after that? Even if it's one sip or non-alcoholic champagne, that's what I'd call giving a bad example.

Edit: the post below is even better one to quote for this reply. Please, explain us, how is doing something that is clearly illegal and also dangerous, less damaging than Tänak's driving style? And do you really think that random granny will think that "oh, Ogier's drift is nothing bad, he's driving slowly, so it's all good"? For general public, they both give EXACTLY the same damaging view.


I honestly feel making headlines about the incidents you mentioned would be over reaction. The only one even worth considering is the excessive, but very slow speed sliding, if it was intentional that is, because we can't even tell that from the video. Like I said, maybe Ogier is smart enough to stop playing around when he sees someone filming, who knows.

What we can tell though clearly from the videos is that Tänak is carrying considerable speed, throwing his car into the corners and doing powerslides on public roads, there is no dispute about that. And like I said earlier, the only way to give an honest comparison between everyone's road driving would be to have access and analyse everyone's onboards from liaisons. From the very little we have seen so far, Tänak's driving has been the worst and most damaging for rallying in my eyes. With this message I want to conclude myself from going in circles about the severity and comparison between Ogier's and Tänak's driving, we agree to disagree.

[AnttiK7]

Just admit it, you're a f*ing hypocrite.
PS. If you really want to promote safety, start with complaining to FIA about champagne on the podium. What message does it give if drivers drink champagne after the powerstage, but have to drive back to service after that? Even if it's one sip or non-alcoholic champagne, that's what I'd call giving a bad example.

I actually completely agree with the champagne part, but that's for another topic and discussion altogether. Regarding comparisons between Ogier's and Tänak's incidents I have already said enough in the past 30 pages until something new surfaces.

[Hartusvuori]

Welcome aboard to all new Estonian forum members!

[rs7]

Welcome aboard to all new Estonian forum members!

I think you would get a lot of new finnish members too if the name on thread would be Latvala. Or belgians if it would be Neuville.

[swanny]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAomAwIwxm8

[RaunoK]

I actually completely agree with the champagne part, but that's for another topic and discussion altogether. Regarding comparisons between Ogier's and Tänak's incidents I have already said enough in the past 30 pages until something new surfaces.

You're saying you don't approve using phones, but your actions and explanations are pretty much passive approval. You consider showing off clearly more damaging than something that's (also) clearly both dangerous and illegal. You consider one guy's showing off more damaging than others. How is that not hypocritical?

As I already said, for general public, both of those drifting incidents are identical. You might argue one is safer/slower/whatever than the other, but to some random pal who holds a grudge against rally, they're both reckless. So I don't really see a difference here.


PS. Thanks Hartusvuori, been reading this forum for quite some time, it was about time to register too :)

[AnttiL]

As I already said, for general public, both of those drifting incidents are identical. You might argue one is safer/slower/whatever than the other, but some random pal who holds a grudge against rally, they're both reckless. So I don't really see a difference here.

This is true. But I don't think it's AnttiK7's intention to put the blame on Tänak in particular, but to give awareness to FIA that the drivers are doing this? As a matter of fact, they must be aware of it already, but have just realized that they don't have any power or resources to do anything about it, other than letting the police make their decisions.

I want to also clarify that as a Finn I'm super happy about Tänak doing well in the Toyota. I also posted (http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?37315-WRC-86th-Rallye-Monte-Carlo-2018-(Jan-22-28)&p=1168269&highlight=T%E4nak#post1168269) it during the rally

[Watson]

As one of the people who is anti hooning on public roads maybe let me state that I don't think that any of the drivers should get sanctioned for anything that happened in Monte Carlo since it seems a common behaviour.

What I'd like the FIA to do is to have a briefing with all the drivers and to tell them that it is a no-go and introduce to everyone at the same time what sort of penalties will be given out if a driver is caught breaking the law. They could enforce it on the basis of onboard camera evidence coupled with looking at the telemetry, so you can see who breaks the speed limit and who commits to inapropriate driving behaviour.

A solution to the tire warming issue could be that they would block a piece of road before the stage, however long it needs to be, so they can zick-zack and do heavy breaking to get heat into the tires and breaks safely.

Does that sound appeasing to everybody?

[AnttiK7]

As one of the people who is anti hooning on public roads maybe let me state that I don't think that any of the drivers should get sanctioned for anything that happened in Monte Carlo since it seems a common behaviour.

What I'd like the FIA to do is to have a briefing with all the drivers and to tell them that it is a no-go and introduce to everyone at the same time what sort of penalties will be given out if a driver is caught breaking the law. They could enforce it on the basis of onboard camera evidence coupled with looking at the telemetry, so you can see who breaks the speed limit and who commits to inapropriate driving behaviour.

A solution to the tire warming issue could be that they would block a piece of road before the stage, however long it needs to be, so they can zick-zack and do heavy breaking to get heat into the tires and breaks safely.

Does that sound appeasing to everybody?

Very good ideas!

[T16]

Does that sound appeasing to everybody?[/QUOTE]

It may mean closing a section of public road for this to happen 'legally' and I am not sure if this is possible for all stages at all events, as I believe some countries do not allow road closures for motor sport.

[Hartusvuori]

Does that sound appeasing to everybody?

It may mean closing a section of public road for this to happen 'legally' and I am not sure if this is possible for all stages at all events, as I believe some countries do not allow road closures for motor sport.[/QUOTE]

Also, in many cases liason road on a tarmac with a junction to the stage road is often used for normal traffic. Doing the warm up area at the beginning of the stage road could be somewhat difficult as well and at least shorten the stage distance by a kilometre or so.

But nevertheless constructive idea!

[Rallyper]

Just a simple question:

Why would it be needed to have liason especially for sliding for spectators? Have I missed something here?

To me sliding and reving is on the stages. Proposal denied.

(Having said that, above has nothing to do with main topic about OT. I already cleared my view on it.)

[Carbon]

https://youtu.be/_5fQZhv0poU

Footage of Antti. I understand him now.

[Watson]

Just a simple question:

Why would it be needed to have liason especially for sliding for spectators? Have I missed something here?

To me sliding and reving is on the stages. Proposal denied.

(Having said that, above has nothing to do with main topic about OT. I already cleared my view on it.)

I wasn't suggesting an area for sliding, but for warming up tires and breaks.

Edit: I also talked about the Tanak's, Ogier's, Mikkelsen's and anyone who hasn't been caught on camera-'s incident and a way to get a handle on it. Very much so. Please read again.

I just came up with it before I posted it so I know it is likely to be flawed in some ways but maybe we can work that out collectively. Or someone comes up with better ideas.

[Mr C1412]

So in summary the thread went something like this:
- Ogier uses his phone while driving on a main road.
Antti: “I’m OK with that”.
- Ogier is filmed going sideways past a van on a public road.
Antti: “I’m OK with that”.
- Mikkleson is filmed going sideways on a public road.
Antti: I’m OK with that”.
- Evans is filmed going sideways on a public road.
Antti: “I’m OK with that”.
- Tänak is filmed entertaining a few of his fans at the side of a quiet road by wheel spinning at a snails pace.
Antti: “Ban that f*cker! I’m making a formal complaint to the FIA!”

You are everything that is wrong with patriotic idiots. Now put your panties back on and move away from the PC before you embarrass yourself even more.

[Watson]

So in summary the thread went something like this:
- Ogier uses his phone while driving on a main road.
Antti: “I’m OK with that”.
- Ogier is filmed going sideways past a van on a public road.
Antti: “I’m OK with that”.
- Mikkleson is filmed going sideways on a public road.
Antti: I’m OK with that”.
- Evans is filmed going sideways on a public road.
Antti: “I’m OK with that”.
- Tänak is filmed entertaining a few of his fans at the side of a quiet road by wheel spinning at a snails pace.
Antti: “Ban that f*cker! I’m making a formal complaint to the FIA!”

You are everything that is wrong with patriotic idiots. Now put your panties back on and move away from the PC before you embarrass yourself even more.

1) You messed up the timeline.
2) Abundance of redundance.
3) Can we stop the name-calling?
4) Can we stop the polemic?
5) Can we stop with the stereotypical twitter shitstorm rhetoric?

Enough already. It didn't get us anywhere 30 pages ago. It almost certainly won't help now.

[Mr C1412]

Who said it was in chronological order?

[Indreq]

A solution to the tire warming issue could be that they would block a piece of road before the stage, however long it needs to be, so they can zick-zack and do heavy breaking to get heat into the tires and breaks safely.

Does that sound appeasing to everybody?

This may not be common everywhere, but on this one rally which organization i used to help for 10 years, it was common practice. We closed road to traffic from nearest junction to the SS start - it was anywhere between 200m to 2km. There drivers could do warming up if they wanted.

[Watson]

Who said it was in chronological order?
Your argument stands and falls with chronology. I was hoping you said it was.

Please also refer to points to points 2) through to 5) since you're answering me.

[Vahula]

I honestly feel making headlines about the incidents you mentioned would be over reaction. The only one even worth considering is the excessive, but very slow speed sliding, if it was intentional that is, because we can't even tell that from the video. Like I said, maybe Ogier is smart enough to stop playing around when he sees someone filming, who knows.

Duude! Have you ever driven rear biased 4 wheel car? On snow? With slicks?
As soon as you touch the pedal the rear steps out. Tänak was not braking the car with the slide (as you would to with a drift) he was just trying to get along. His wheels were pointing straight. He was going uphill on a ice coverd road, i would give it a little gas also. Maybe a little fast but was not over speed limit.

If you don't like how they drive in France alps then you should wright FIA to ban Monte

[Watson]

Duude! Have you ever driven rear biased 4 wheel car? On snow? With slicks?
As soon as you touch the pedal the rear steps out. Tänak was not braking the car with the slide (as you would to with a drift) he was just trying to get along. His wheels were pointing straight. He was going uphill on a ice coverd road, i would give it a little gas also. Maybe a little fast but was not over speed limit.

If you don't like how they drive in France alps then you should wright FIA to ban Monte

You're later than Chinese new year. This point was discussed between pages 15 - 20 and you're bringing nothing to the table except more wild ill informed speculation with a dash of pseudo anecdote.

I don't mean to be a dick but you're adding to the mess.

[AnttiK7]

Ok, let's not start going in the same circles again. Everyone who has insulted me, it's all good, I forgive you for the name calling and other nonsense. I mean I don't even know you guys, you don't know me, so what the hell is this. All I see is a nickname and a lot of angry looking insults directed towards me, but I don't even feel anything inside when I read them, as the insults don't feel in any way descriptive about me. Life is way too short for this kind of nonsense honestly, let's just move on from that. I know very well that nothing in life is black and white. But I have also learnt to become more opinionated about things that mean something to me and perhaps that gets translated to messages that are sometimes more black and white than they should. I am very nostalgic about WRC's past, I follow the present intensely and I am also progressive and want the sport to change for the better when thinking about the future, all at the same time. And that can be quite conflicting actually sometimes. From that point I can understand why some people have brought up my videos and different elements of my passion that don't support these views. But this kind of thinking is equally part of my passion for rallying. I don't want something to stay the same because it has 'always' been like that. That's the way it is. And that's why this topic was created in the first place. That is why I have contacted FIA personally and why I would like to see things changed.

Anyway Watson actually has extremely constructive and good ideas, best ones in this topic so far, and we should concentrate the discussion along those lines if you want to keep discussing in this topic, rather than go back to going in silly circles. I guess discussing about anything is a process, the discussion starts from somewhere and continues somewhere and eventually ends somewhere but you can't see the journey from the beginning. C´est la vie. Good night.

[Mr C1412]

I don't mean to be a dick.

I would hate to see you try.

[drive]

to keep it short - did you send other video to FIA? or just one video of Ott and asking to ban him?

That would clear loads of emotions.... or create a new ones... if you dare to answer. because now loads of emotions but not clear whatyou have done and what not

[N.O.T]

8 pages of arguing over some fun...

real life must be really hard for you guys....

[AnttiK7]

to keep it short - did you send other video to FIA? or just one video of Ott and asking to ban him?

That would clear loads of emotions.... or create a new ones... if you dare to answer. because now loads of emotions but not clear whatyou have done and what not

Only the original video of Tänak and I haven't explicitly asked them to ban anyone. However I have told FIA to strongly consider taking some kind of clear action for the best of the sport, whatever that is. I have left no room for doubt that as a big fan of rallying I feel Tänak disrespects the sport in the video, unintentionally or not. It is up to the them what they want to do or not do. But I have absolutely no interest of sending them any other videos or incidents that I have seen so far, zero interest. That's enough from my part for now. I would rather concentrate on more constructive lines like Watson has been talking about. If you don't like it, you don't like it.

[drive]

enough said...
if I would be you, and I wanted to make the point about unsafe driving, rally drivers as an icons for youth and others to follow, etc etc as you were writing - I would make a proper file of wrong doings... not ONE driver, but as we can see now - almost all drivers done some BAD things... and I would be complaining till the end to try make a difference....

You have chosen other path:
to blame one driver.....
drifting other drivers - thats fine...
using mobile (!!!!!!!!!!) while driving - so what....

do you still dont get why so many people are calling you names? cmon....

[AnttiK7]

enough said...
if I would be you, and I wanted to make the point about unsafe driving, rally drivers as an icons for youth and others to follow, etc etc as you were writing - I would make a proper file of wrong doings... not ONE driver, but as we can see now - almost all drivers done some BAD things... and I would be ng till the end to try make a difference....

You have chosen other path:
to blame one driver.....
drifting other drivers - thats fine...
using mobile (!!!!!!!!!!) while driving - so what....

do you still dont get why so many people are calling you names? cmon....

I can forgive the people writing mindless babble targeted towards me like I said. They don't know any better and it's all done hiding behind nicknames. It's so very easy to do without any thought whatsoever. But I most certainly don't have a responsibility to justify myself or my actions outside this forum to anyone here. Are you kidding? If you don't like it, tough luck. I won't go down that road anymore. To be honest I have explained myself too much for you already.

[MartinMK]

And now we all see, its not about safety, not about how rallying is seen from outside, its about Tännak. You have made your point.

[AnttiK7]

If I had some kind of vendetta against Tänak particularly, I would have already sent them the second video where he misbehaves. But really I'm not interested. One short video where the problem is presented very well is enough. You are talking now about something again that I have addressed pages ago.

[tbtstt]

While we're on the subject of Tanak, how awesome was he on the stages in Monte Carlo? Still think its a damn shame that he left M-Sport, but if he carries on driving like that I can't see it behind long before he becomes the number one driver at Toyota.

[Hartusvuori]

While we're on the subject of Tanak, how awesome was he on the stages in Monte Carlo? Still think its a damn shame that he left M-Sport, but if he carries on driving like that I can't see it behind long before he becomes the number one driver at Toyota.

He adjusted to Yaris WRC very well, which clearly is there in the results too. He kind of is M-Sport driver, but same were Latvala and Hirvonen in the past too. And if there were any hesitations for Tänak about how good Yaris is, I'm sure he's quite confident now (and hopefully even more confident when he goes to bed after this weekend). Toyota is looking very strong for Sweden. Let's just not jinx it. Who comes out on top could be just a matter of details what happens in the rally. On paper both Jari-Matti and Ott could win it and to a lesser degree Esapekka too. Surely Ogier, Neuville, Mikkelsen will have a say on this too. In the end us the fans are the winners, at least.

[tbtstt]

He adjusted to Yaris WRC very well, which clearly is there in the results too. He kind of is M-Sport driver, but same were Latvala and Hirvonen in the past too. And if there were any hesitations for Tänak about how good Yaris is, I'm sure he's quite confident now (and hopefully even more confident when he goes to bed after this weekend). Toyota is looking very strong for Sweden. Let's just not jinx it. Who comes out on top could be just a matter of details what happens in the rally. On paper both Jari-Matti and Ott could win it and to a lesser degree Esapekka too. Surely Ogier, Neuville, Mikkelsen will have a say on this too. In the end us the fans are the winners, at least.
Absolutely! Given the rather rocky development path for the Yaris, the fact it ran at all was a bit of a surprise, but it's brilliant that the car is competitive: and that the rest of the field (apart from the Citroen!) are so close.

I actually thought Tanak in the Fiesta was the most entertaining driver to watch of the 2017 season, which is why I was disappointed that he left M-Sport. He seems to have landed on his feet at Toyota though and, if he had stayed at M-Sport, it surely would have been difficult to have moved out of the shadow of Ogier. I think Toyota will give him a much better chance to really shine: I just hope he is as sideways as last year!

[Watson]

I would hate to see you try.

You come here, call people idiots, tell them to fck off and what not, yet as soon as you're met with a little resistance (without any name calling) you get upset? You're the one constantly telling everybody to man up. Funny, eh?

[AnttiK7]

You come here, call people idiots, tell them to fck off and what not, yet as soon as you're met with a little resistance (without any name calling) you get upset? You're the one constantly telling everybody to man up. Funny, eh?

I think it's just better to stop wasting time with this kind of people. If they can't discuss in a respectful manner towards other members, it's not really worth to pay much attention to them.

[AnttiK7]

Ok now actually on topic. What I would suggest to solve this problem is a lot in line with what Watson has suggested earlier. Close the road a few hundred metres before the start wherever this is possible and feasible where drivers can warm up a bit. If it's not possible on some stages for whatever reason, then drivers have to do without it, no ifs or buts, it's the same for everyone. Also don't allow spectators to be walking around in that bit of warm up road. Nowadays it's normal for drivers to do warming up immediately before the stage start with public freely hanging around, with little kids running in between cars asking for autographs and it's not a pretty thing to see.

I don't know what is the regulation regarding liaison onboards right now, but those would have to be fully recorded. I am not suggesting someone should go through everyone's liaison onboards every rally, but if any problems or complaints arise, you can access the incident from onboard view as well. Obviously everyone's speed would be monitored as well. Drastic speedings would be taken immediate action against, always, without any ifs or buts. If someone misbehaves, no fines, 10 second time penalties or any nonsense like that, but you are immediately talking about a disqualification and rally bans the first time around. The second time it happens, you are banned for a year at least.

Things change and so does WRC, it simply has to in order to keep existing. Back in the golden 80s in most WRC rallies it was still common practice for drivers to have completely free reign to practice the stages as much as they liked. So you had professional rally drivers in rally cars doing rally speeds, practicing optimal lines for corners, on open public roads! There were no regulations regarding that whatsoever, before the rally or during the rally, everything was ok. For example Henri Toivonen went to practice stages in a long rest halt of Rally Monte Carlo in 1986 to be better prepared for the last leg. And of course as a result of this there were many injuries and even deaths involving innocent members of the public who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just imagine if that was still allowed today! Nowadays that seems often forgotten, now we only mostly remember the Group B cars and crowd behaviour from the 80s. But If that practice wasn't outlawed by the early 90s and the modern recce laws implemented, WRC would have been long dead when writing this message.

[AnttiL]

Back in the golden 80s in most WRC rallies it was still common practice for drivers to have completely free reign to practice the stages as much as they liked. So you had professional rally drivers in rally cars doing rally speeds, practicing optimal lines for corners, on open public roads! There were no regulations regarding that whatsoever, before the rally or during the rally, everything was ok. For example Henri Toivonen went to practice stages in a long rest halt of Rally Monte Carlo in 1986 to be better prepared for the last leg.

Hmm, I think they used rally cars for recce/practice but not on rally speeds, there was still police around giving fines. Although many drivers preferred to practice by night to have less traffic and to see other cars coming the opposite direction by their lights.

Also, there's various stories about the Toivonen Monte 1986 thing, he was indeed taken by helicopter into the mountains but one story is that he went to a closed road test, other is that he went for another recce round with Harri Toivonen checking the pace notes. Also, Harri has told about Henri doing four wheel slides with the car going backwards into a hairpin on icy roads and Harri being really scared of that, but another version is that it happened already before the rally in tests.

[Watson]

Maybe there would be a possibility to create a system where you could insert the speed limit of any given point of each road stage and synchronize it with the telemtry data. If the programme shows apparent breaking of the speed limit the officials can take a closer look. This way you wouldn't have to monitor evey mile of every stage with a bunch of blokesditting in front of TVs all day.

I suppose this way you would also be able to monitor drivers sliding around most of the time since wheelspin is recorded in the telemetry as a very sudden increase in speed which could be detected by a logarythm.

Now concerning the penalties handed out I think disqualification and bans should only apply for really bad infrictions. If a driver goes on a motorway and is allowed 120 kph and goes 160 he poses far less of a risk than when he goes 90 where he is only allowed 50. That should definitly be taken into account and first offenders should get away lighter imo.

The teams could make the drivers' life easier by allowing the drivers to dial in speed limiters (similar to pit limiters) in their road engine managment settings. (Most commonly 40, 50, 60, 80 and 120 kph in Europe)

This would put an end to the drivers being rewarded for speeding if they had to spend time repairing.

As for the warm up zones I'm pretty much with you Antti. I actually don't think that closing stretches of road would be that much of a problem since it they don't need to be very long and it reduces the risk of casualties for the organizers. Maybe allowing drivers to carry heated blankets would also be a possibility if there is time for it before the stage. The drivers would turn up before the stage, put on the blankets and take them off right before they roll up to the start.

[Allez Andruet]

Hmm, I think they used rally cars for recce/practice but not on rally speeds, there was still police around giving fines. Although many drivers preferred to practice by night to have less traffic and to see other cars coming the opposite direction by their lights.

Also, there's various stories about the Toivonen Monte 1986 thing, he was indeed taken by helicopter into the mountains but one story is that he went to a closed road test, other is that he went for another recce round with Harri Toivonen checking the pace notes. Also, Harri has told about Henri doing four wheel slides with the car going backwards into a hairpin on icy roads and Harri being really scared of that, but another version is that it happened already before the rally in tests.

Recces were not done on rally speeds, but I think it's fair to say they didn't always obey the speed limit either. For example that story that Timo Salonen tells at the end of the great great film "Superautojen aika" from recce of Acropolis '85 (?) doesn't necessarily sound like they've used normal road speed :D

Regarding the Toivonen story... seems like way too much time has passed to anyone remember it correctly. It's the same thing with his fatal accident in Corsica. Even the ones who were there mess things up.

[AnttiK7]

I always understood the Toivonen story that Lancia had a practice rally car ready and waiting in the mountains and they flew Toivonen by helicopter to practice the stages. They definitely flew him there, but from there on the stories differ. Admittedly there's a lot of mythology and mixed up stories regarding Toivonen and 1986, let's not get started with Estoril. I remember Markku Alén telling how back in the 80s he would practice for 1000 Lakes as if the whole route was one long circuit. Practicing the ideal line for every metre of the route. The notes were very simple and just there as a back up for the memory in essence. It definitely wasn't driving from the notes. Back then drivers memorised the roads by driving them again and again and again. Nowadays the memorisation process happens much more safely through videos.

Apart from the aforementioned Salonen incident at Acropolis, of the top of my head I can remember a few other incidents involving famous drivers. Didier Auriol was in a recce accident for Rally Portugal some year which involved serious injuries for the other party, but I can't pinpoint the year now unfortunately. Practicing for 1989 Corsica Juha Kankkunen had an accident with a recreational vehicle (?) in which only apparently miraculous luck prevented serious injuries. Very promising French driver from the same generation than Mr. Loeb, Marc Champeau lost his life in 1999 while practicing a stage for the Mont Blanc Rally, the road was open for public and he hit a lorry head on with his WRC Impreza. Marcus Grönholm's father Ulf Grönholm actually also lost his life driving a rally car on a public road, but as far as I have understood it wasn't practicing but just a kind of a shakedown test for the car. I am pretty sure there were fatalities during the recce in 1985 Monte Carlo and the accident either involved Ari Vatanen or someone close to him, but I couldn't find more info on that with a quick search.

Ironically one time it actually happened the other way around for a famous driver. In 1994 Francois Delecour was slowly cruising in his friend's Ferrari F40 in France when a driver practicing for a local rally crashed into him head on. Quite serious leg injuries and the end of what probably would have been a serious Championship challenge to become the first French World Champion instead of Auriol that year. He actually never won another WRC rally after that accident.

Completely off topic, I have always been fascinated by the driving style of Francois Delecour in 1993 and early 1994 when he was at his very best. I don't think I have ever seen another World class rally driver drive so smooth and trying to avoid any kind of sliding as much as he did back then. Like night and day when you compare him to Auriol's style at the time.

[AnttiL]

You can get hurt seriously in a car accident driving 80 km/h, plenty for recce on a small gravel road. Meanwhile, the rally speed could be double that.

Ulf Grönholm (Marcus's dad) was indeed practicing/testing in the night time in winter, and crashed into the rear of a parked snowplow truck. The rally car also burned.

[AnttiK7]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGuS4cX4x00

Here's a good onboard video on this subject. Kankkunen practicing for San Remo 1988 and it looks like the Perinaldo stage to me. Note that the road is open for public and the amount of speed carried into the corners, a bit after 20 seconds a road car comes the other way. Jeans, T-shirt and no helmets of course either. :D

[Allez Andruet]

Ulf Grönholm (Marcus's dad) was indeed practicing/testing in the night time in winter, and crashed into the rear of a parked snowplow truck. The rally car also burned.

And Uffe's accident, if any, was result of totally illegal (by today's standards) "testing" - carried out on the eve of Hankiralli (classic winter rally in Southern Finland) on a public road. There was nothing scandalous tough (in the press etc.), as it was more or less common practice back then.

[steve.mandzij]

Being a younger rally fan the one that sticks out to me was very recent, Alexey Lukyanuk's shakedown accident a few months (years?) ago, where he crashed head on into another car.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Zico]

Not sure what all the fuss is about here. Yes, a bit naughty and Tomi should have a word but... meh... asking for harsh penalties?
I hope you never become a cop or judge... you would shoot or hang people for farting. :$

[AnttiK7]

asking for harsh penalties?
I hope you never become a cop or judge... you would shoot or hang people for farting. :$

I am definitely for harsh penalties for this type of things, but in the sporting context. I have never talked about hanging people here. And rally organisers in WRC have taken action against these kinds of incidents all the way from the 1970s to 2000s, for much lesser infringements as well. Those instances have just usually necessitated a police involvement at first so there hasn't been any kind of consistency whatsoever, when it comes to giving penalties for this type of antics. Stig Blomqvist was disqualified from the 1975 1000 Lakes for speeding on a road section. Hannu Mikkola was given a five minute penalty in 1979 Monte Carlo for doing an illegal overtake, which he denies having done to this day. Retrospectively looking, that penalty ended up costing Mikkola the 1979 World Championship, the first Drivers' World Championship in history. Also Tommi Mäkinen was given a five minute penalty in 2003 New Zealand for speeding 50kph over the speed limit in an urban area. Colin McRae did have to go to the FIA court in Paris in 1996 for driving recklessly in service area in Argentina.

Let's take an F1 example. Please note this example refers to consequences caused by lack of action, in no way I am comparing this incident or the severity of it to Tänak's case. I am a great fan of Ayrton Senna, but that doesn't change my opinion that after what he did in 1990 Suzuka (deliberately ram into Alain Prost in high speed, in order to win the World Championship), the correct action would have been to strip Senna of his 1990 World Championship and he should have been banned for the whole of the 1991 seson as well. But no action was taken, none. Amazingly, some of the motorsport press actually heralded Senna and blamed Prost for disrespecting the sport for daring to whine about Senna. And what happened a few years later, a certain fella named Michael Schumacher brandished similar driving code in World Championship deciders (even if the Schumacher incidents weren't nearly as serious as Senna's in 1990). But if Senna had been strongly punished for 1990, I don't think Schumacher would have tried to pull his tricks later.

In Tänak's case I would just disqualify him for Monte and ban him for a couple of rallies. It would be a very harsh penalty given the history of extremely inconsistent dealings with this type of incidents and sure it would send shockwaves. But it could be the beginning of more consistent and clearer penalties for road section silliness that would keep drivers better in line in the future and when looking back, it could be seen as a very important decision for the sport.

[MartinMK]

Again, you see only Tänak's mistakes but Ogier and others you just leave out. Lets ban them all from Monte and ban them from couple of rallies. You cant select just one to be punished if others did same things.
Every post you prove, its about you not liking Tänak and not about what he or others have done.

[Tarmop]

This thing has been laughed out in most places, probably also by the FIA or we`d have already read their answer. Stop feeding it...

[bandit12]

The only ones who complain are the Finns. Coincidence? What happened to you? where did the people of Simo Häyhä disappear? Now there is only complains and whining. O tempora o mores.

edit. And yes, i registered myself just to say that.

[Allez Andruet]

where did the people of Simo Häyhä disappear?

Ooh, now I feel so offended as there's nothing cooler than to be a sniper in the Winter War.

[bandit12]

You're right. There is not nothing cooler.

[danon]

In Tänak's case I would just disqualify him for Monte and ban him for a couple of rallies. It would be a very harsh penalty given the history of extremely inconsistent dealings with this type of incidents and sure it would send shockwaves...

https://media.giphy.com/media/l1l3Wn73VuOrK/giphy.gif

[Watson]

The only ones who complain are the Finns. Coincidence? What happened to you? where did the people of Simo Häyhä disappear? Now there is only complains and whining. O tempora o mores.

edit. And yes, i registered myself just to say that.

I'm not Finnish and I'm with AnttiK7 eventhough I probably stand for milder penatlies. I don't think he is targetting Tanak specifically either, in his eyes his slide was a bigger infriction than say Ogier's looking at the phone while driving, which is debatable. Debatable as in a viewpoint you can disagree with yet not forcing anyone to take out the big guns for disagreeig.

Besides, Tanak after all still drives for a Finnish team, so I doubt he'd want to him see fail. It would make more sense for him to go after Ogier or Mikkelsen if he wanted to disadvantage non-Finnish championship prospects.

[Tarmop]

It`s quite obvious that it is more personal, but you believe that...

[GravelBen]

In Tänak's case I would just disqualify him for Monte and ban him for a couple of rallies. It would be a very harsh penalty given the history of extremely inconsistent dealings with this type of incidents and sure it would send shockwaves. But it could be the beginning of more consistent and clearer penalties for road section silliness that would keep drivers better in line in the future and when looking back, it could be seen as a very important decision for the sport.

You still haven't given us any sensible reason why Tanak should be singled out for such punishment instead of another driver.

You talk about the beginning of more consistent and clearer penalties and yet you want to pick one driver seemingly at random to make an example of with extreme punishment?

[steve.mandzij]

You still haven't given us any sensible reason why Tanak should be singled out for such punishment instead of another driver.

You talk about the beginning of more consistent and clearer penalties and yet you want to pick one driver seemingly at random to make an example of with extreme punishment?I think we've had enough of this thread already.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[AnttiK7]

Update regarding FIA's involvement in the case. Jean Todt's chief of staff Mr. Malenfer has informed me that the Tänak incident has been now reported to the Stewards. So the FIA is having a look into the issue at least and haven't turned the blind eye, which is good. We'll see where the case goes from here.

[MartinMK]

So we should start filing complaints about Ogier using phone and sliding, Mikkelsen sliding. And search for videos about other drivers too and after every rally, so we find out who won after half a year, when all complaints are looked over?

https://youtu.be/UT8pg0xEQ4I?t=44 Ogier shoul be banned from 2017 championship.
https://youtu.be/UT8pg0xEQ4I?t=122 Thierry to

https://youtu.be/5O-INzThaZ0?t=23 Ogier again in MC2018
https://youtu.be/5O-INzThaZ0?t=28 Mikkelsen in MC2018

As long as you don't report other drivers doing same thing your'e a butt-hurt finn trying to get Tänak out from this years championship because Latvala is getting his ass whipped by Tänak.
If you want fair game, then all those known misdoings should be reported by you, bus as long as you haven't done that, everyone sees that you are only trying to get Tänak.
You have said, that its not about Tännak and you being finn and you would report others to, but after you get proof that others do the same things you don't report them.

[Adler]

Update regarding FIA's involvement in the case. Jean Todt's chief of staff Mr. Malenfer has informed me that the Tänak incident has been now reported to the Stewards. So the FIA is having a look into the issue at least and haven't turned the blind eye, which is good. We'll see where the case goes from here.

Does that mean you have reported this incident to FIA? ? If so you should be banned from this forum imho, this forum is made for rally fans i believe.

Btw, have you ever driven a 4wd +300 HP car with studded tires on fresh snow? Quite impossible to not go sideways...

[bandit12]

Does that mean you have reported this incident to FIA? ? If so you should be banned from this forum imho, this forum is made for rally fans i believe.

Btw, have you ever driven a 4wd +300 HP car with studded tires on fresh snow? Quite impossible to not go sideways...

Indeed!

[bandit12]

So we should start filing complaints about Ogier using phone and sliding, Mikkelsen sliding. And search for videos about other drivers too and after every rally, so we find out who won after half a year, when all complaints are looked over?

https://youtu.be/UT8pg0xEQ4I?t=44 Ogier shoul be banned from 2017 championship.
https://youtu.be/UT8pg0xEQ4I?t=122 Thierry to

https://youtu.be/5O-INzThaZ0?t=23 Ogier again in MC2018
https://youtu.be/5O-INzThaZ0?t=28 Mikkelsen in MC2018

As long as you don't report other drivers doing same thing your'e a butt-hurt finn trying to get Tänak out from this years championship because Latvala is getting his ass whipped by Tänak.
If you want fair game, then all those known misdoings should be reported by you, bus as long as you haven't done that, everyone sees that you are only trying to get Tänak.
You have said, that its not about Tännak and you being finn and you would report others to, but after you get proof that others do the same things you don't report them.

Yes, you must act like a real rallye fan and twitter hero.

[AnttiK7]

Does that mean you have reported this incident to FIA?

Yes.

Regarding the other comments, I won't go anymore into the issue of comparing different incidents with the Tänak case and whatnot. That one I have explained in depth already and you will find everything I have to say about that within the confines of this thread.

But regarding the nationality thing, if I cared so much about that, then why on earth would I make such a song and dance about an Estonian driver, driving for an essentially Finnish WRC team. Toyota's WRC team is quite a big thing in Finland after all and if I cared about being nationalistic, I would be very quiet about anything negative involving them. FIA now looking into Tänak does much more harm for Toyota's rally team than it does good for the Finnish drivers, who drive for it. I highly doubt there is anything good about this thing for anyone in the Toyota team.

If you notice, I earlier said that in my opinion Ayrton Senna should have been banned from Formula 1 for a year at the very minimum, while I also stated that I am his great fan. I think it's healthy to apply critical thinking with everything in life. Just because you are a fan of someone, it doesn't mean you have to approve of everything they do or say either, no one or nothing is perfect. Or just because someone does something you think is wrong, it doesn't mean they are an all around horrible person with nothing to admire about them.

When it comes to driving on the stages, I admire Ott's commitment and speed. Comparing him directly to Latvala, I believe Tänak is actually an all around faster driver than Latvala at the moment. Who is more consistent nowadays is more up in the air though, as Latvala has become much more consistent since he joined Toyota. I would probably give a very slight advantage to Latvala on that criteria, as last year we saw the most mature Latvala we have ever seen, but he was very unlucky with mechanical failures. So at the moment I would probably rate Tänak and Latvala fairly even, with Lappi far behind them, simply because he is still way too inconsistent. I have no problem in saying that in my opinion so far Lappi has driven a lot more bad rallies for Toyota, than good ones. The slightly fortuitous win in Finland probably flatters his rating a bit to be honest. Apart from that rally he has mostly been either slow or binning it.

But like I have said already before, this topic is about driving off the stages, not on them.

[danon]

^
^
https://media.giphy.com/media/W0rn83tb8a1yM/giphy.gif

[ESTR]

Yes.

Regarding the other comments, I won't go anymore into the issue of comparing different incidents with the Tänak case and whatnot. That one I have explained in depth already and you will find everything I have to say about that within the confines of this thread.

But regarding the nationality thing, if I cared so much about that, then why on earth would I make such a song and dance about an Estonian driver, driving for an essentially Finnish WRC team. Toyota's WRC team is quite a big thing in Finland after all and if I cared about being nationalistic, I would be very quiet about anything negative involving them. FIA now looking into Tänak does much more harm for Toyota's rally team than it does good for the Finnish drivers, who drive for it. I highly doubt there is anything good about this thing for anyone in the Toyota team.

If you notice, I earlier said that in my opinion Ayrton Senna should have been banned from Formula 1 for a year at the very minimum, while I also stated that I am his great fan. I think it's healthy to apply critical thinking with everything in life. Just because you are a fan of someone, it doesn't mean you have to approve of everything they do or say either, no one or nothing is perfect. Or just because someone does something you think is wrong, it doesn't mean they are an all around horrible person with nothing to admire about them.

When it comes to driving on the stages, I admire Ott's commitment and speed. Comparing him directly to Latvala, I believe Tänak is actually an all around faster driver than Latvala at the moment. Who is more consistent nowadays is more up in the air though, as Latvala has become much more consistent since he joined Toyota. I would probably give a very slight advantage to Latvala on that criteria, as last year we saw the most mature Latvala we have ever seen, but he was very unlucky with mechanical failures. So at the moment I would probably rate Tänak and Latvala fairly even, with Lappi far behind them, simply because he is still way too inconsistent. I have no problem in saying that in my opinion so far Lappi has driven a lot more bad rallies for Toyota, than good ones. The slightly fortuitous win in Finland probably flatters his rating a bit to be honest. Apart from that rally he has mostly been either slow or binning it.

But like I have said already before, this topic is about driving off the stages, not on them.

Douchebag. Tanak and Toyota will be proud of you.

Let's hope that FIA have better things to do than work on your "case" and will forget about all. And then you can go crying in the corner.

Stupid people everywhere..

[WRC1]

Does that mean you have reported this incident to FIA? ? If so you should be banned from this forum imho, this forum is made for rally fans i believe.

Btw, have you ever driven a 4wd +300 HP car with studded tires on fresh snow? Quite impossible to not go sideways...

Agree 100% this person should be banned...what an I....?

[liposh]

Till now I thought N.O.T. is the worst member of this forum. Lazy, mean, grumpy but underneath that Rocket Raccoon from Guardians of Galaxy skin is kind person with great heart and huge rally enhusiast. But AnttiK7 is something totally different. You know, sometimes you do something wrong like starting this thread with topic nobody is worried about except AnttiK7, but reporting Tanak to FIA is a brand new level of being a douche.bag. BAN is not enough for somebody like AnttiK7.

[Franky]

Guys, easy now. Let him be and just wait and see how all of this plays out. If they do start messing with the results, then I imagine FIA will get a nice quantity of more complaints regarding Monte Carlo Rally.

Antti, you really don't seem to understand why quite a few dislike you.

Not planning to post anymore in this thread, so no point in responding to me.

[Kaps]

I can't believe we got 37 pages now of this crap!

Reporting Tanak to FIA!? That is just beyond possible!

That AnttiK7 character must surely feel very proud of himself...

[Rally Power]

Update regarding FIA's involvement in the case. Jean Todt's chief of staff Mr. Malenfer has informed me that the Tänak incident has been now reported to the Stewards. So the FIA is having a look into the issue at least and haven't turned the blind eye, which is good. We'll see where the case goes from here.

While you’re satisfied about FIA taking notice of your alleged complaint, I’m worried with a possible negative precedent being open in our sport.

No matter how good your intentions may be and how valuable some of your points can look, if the FIA reacts supporting a complaint made by a fan, what will happen when anti-rally people or movements start lobbying against rally? Will the FIA also attend their protests and let the sport die?

We live in a free world and everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but letting institutions being driven by those eager to reveal a moral superiority on the social media doesn’t seem to be a sensible way to run them.

[bandit12]

... We live in a free world and everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but letting institutions being driven by those eager to reveal a moral superiority on the social media doesn’t seem to be a sensible way to run them.

Amen to that.

[Watson]

Chill out guys, they're just gonna have a word with him or at worst he'll get fined. They're not gonna disqualify him. Remember when Neuville had no mirrors on his cars? That's pretty damn dangerous and they did nothing about it after all. It would create too much of a stir. In the best case they will present a plan how they will penalise drivers for that sort of stuff in the future.

[SubaruNorway]

Does that mean you have reported this incident to FIA? ? If so you should be banned from this forum imho, this forum is made for rally fans i believe.

Btw, have you ever driven a 4wd +300 HP car with studded tires on fresh snow? Quite impossible to not go sideways...

Not really an argument since they are nothing special in road mode, I've driven an Impreza S10 WRC and it's pretty easy to drive and i drive a 340hp Impreza every day in the snow, and for sure it's hard to stay away from sliding but i try to keep it to the ice lakes and not in traffic ;)

[liposh]

In the best case they will present a plan how they will penalise drivers for that sort of stuff in the future.
That is where you are wrong. Being a spectator there I would like to see Tanak doing that stuff. Not dangerous and something to remember. Those small things would kill our beloved rally very slowly and at the end we will be happy to spectate rally at the circuit. I am not exaggerating. I know what I am talking about. Such suggestions were here in CZ in 2012 after rallycar killed spectators.

[Watson]

That is where you are wrong. Being a spectator there I would like to see Tanak doing that stuff. Not dangerous and something to remember. Those small things would kill our beloved rally very slowly and at the end we will be happy to spectate rally at the circuit. I am not exaggerating. I know what I am talking about. Such suggestions were here in CZ in 2012 after rallycar killed spectators.

Again, if someone gets hurt by a rally car in a stage that is very bad press for our sport already, but you can argue that it is part of the risk you take when you go spectating and that it almost never happens when you stay in the marked zones.

However, if someone gets badly injured because a driver puts on a show (or for that matter looks at his phone or is speeding... any type of negligent behaviour by whomever it might be committed) on a public road that is instant death for rally at least in that region. Imagine the news reports and the outrage by the people living in that area. It's just not worth the risk in my opinion. The show takes place in the competitive stages. If that is not enough for certain spectators, I consider them greedy. Don't give the naysayers good reasons to have us banned.

And if people are gonna say I'm repeating myself - well dumb luck. I am making this point as an answer to the same old argument from the other side.

Professional motorsport takes place away from public roads and until someone makes a valuable (or any at all) argument that this is for some reason untrue, I rest my case.

[cali]

Being a younger rally fan the one that sticks out to me was very recent, Alexey Lukyanuk's shakedown accident a few months (years?) ago, where he crashed head on into another car.

Sent from my Pixel using TapatalkNot sure where are you getting with this but just to remind you some facts

Not a shakedown but his team organized pre-event test

Closed road from public

Should be enough to keep Lukyanuk accident away from this thread :)

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[Antony Warmbold]

Saw the footage of Tanak. Been there, done that. All rally drivers do that sort of stuff on road sections. I have seen much much worse behavior from some world champions.. that's life.

[Watson]

Saw the footage of Tanak. Been there, done that. All rally drivers do that sort of stuff on road sections. I have seen much much worse behavior from some world champions.. that's life.

That is not a non-argument in my opinion. Burning witches used to be common practice, as was slavery and arranged marriage. That never made it right though.

Please allow me the hyperbole for demonstrative purposes.

[ESTR]

Saw the footage of Tanak. Been there, done that. All rally drivers do that sort of stuff on road sections. I have seen much much worse behavior from some world champions.. that's life.

Keep that to yourself. Some people here are obsessed with report drivers to FIA.

[N.O.T]

Till now I thought N.O.T. is the worst member of this forum. Lazy, mean, grumpy but underneath that Rocket Raccoon from Guardians of Galaxy skin is kind person with great heart and huge rally enhusiast. But AnttiK7 is something totally different. You know, sometimes you do something wrong like starting this thread with topic nobody is worried about except AnttiK7, but reporting Tanak to FIA is a brand new level of being a douche.bag. BAN is not enough for somebody like AnttiK7.

nobody is worst than me..... kid...

AntiK is probably some finnish politically correct kid that got bullied at school and never had the guts to stand up for anything in his life... even for himself... so now he tells his mommy/FIA/Daddy that he has to ban people and take action for anything that is against his politically correct agenda.

pfffft.... why bother with people who hate fun ? let them cry in their corners because the world is too real for them.....

10 pages of garbage...

Unfortunately Loeb and Ogier damaged the finnish rally arrogance so much that turned finnish rally fans into garbage feeding scared dogs... It is sad... but i find it really funny.

[A FONDO]

I presume Attik7 used to wear some of his sister's clothes when growing up.

[GravelBen]

AnttiK might be wrong about Tanak's driving and suggested punishments, but he is right about some members lowering the tone of the forum by contributing childish insults instead of sensible comments. A bit more maturity wouldn't hurt...