How good is Sebastien Loeb?

[Joestlaachmkr]

In my opinion Loeb is an amazing Rally driver, But he is also overwhelmingly overrated. If you look at the competition he had during 2004-2012 in the WRC it was rather weak overall with only Gronhom, Solberg, Martin, Sainz, Hirvonen and Latvala as true challengers to his titles. And during this period was there few manufactures in the WRC and Citroen was far ahead of any other manufactures during this period of time. Do you think Loeb would have been a 9 time WRC champ if he had competed from 1992-2003 instead? And if we look at Loeb´s performances in the WTCC and the WRX Loeb has not been overly impressive, And it seems like he struggles to race in traffic. Do you think its fair of me to say that Loeb is overrated as a driver?

[wia5958]

Can of worms

[N.O.T]

In my opinion Loeb is an amazing Rally driver, But he is also overwhelmingly overrated. If you look at the competition he had during 2004-2012 in the WRC it was rather weak overall with only Gronhom, Solberg, Martin, Sainz, Hirvonen and Latvala as true challengers to his titles. And during this period was there few manufactures in the WRC and Citroen was far ahead of any other manufactures during this period of time. Do you think Loeb would have been a 9 time WRC champ if he had competed from 1992-2003 instead? And if we look at Loeb´s performances in the WTCC and the WRX Loeb has not been overly impressive, And it seems like he struggles to race in traffic. Do you think its fair of me to say that Loeb is overrated as a driver?

who is better ?

[AndyRAC]

You can only beat what's in front of you, which he did. Add in his neat driving style, his few mistakes, plus his willingness to go outside his comfort zone and try different series makes him on another level. He finished 2nd in his second attempt at Le Mans in 2006 with very little experience; I doubt many other WRC drivers could do that.
He's been the best 'all round' driver competing over the last 10+ years. Which is why I have huge respect for Alonso trying other races as well.

[L555MAT]

Imho he is one of the best but not the best of all time. He was the best driver in the weakest era. I have no doubt he would have been WC in any era but not as dominant say if he was competing in group b or the 90s

[ESTR]

In my opinion Loeb is an amazing Rally driver, But he is also overwhelmingly overrated. If you look at the competition he had during 2004-2012 in the WRC it was rather weak overall with only Gronhom, Solberg, Martin, Sainz, Hirvonen and Latvala as true challengers to his titles. And during this period was there few manufactures in the WRC and Citroen was far ahead of any other manufactures during this period of time. Do you think Loeb would have been a 9 time WRC champ if he had competed from 1992-2003 instead? And if we look at Loeb´s performances in the WTCC and the WRX Loeb has not been overly impressive, And it seems like he struggles to race in traffic. Do you think its fair of me to say that Loeb is overrated as a driver?

Agree with that. In Dakar he would be nowhere if there wasn't huge money in Peugeot. Same as Ogier. He have only one challenger at the VW. Hyundai was in development state, M-Sport a little back with no money. Citroen doesn't bother to real challenge.

We will see this year how good he is with that crappy bouncy car. Oh right he will drive only those ones who suit C3... And there we go again with those frenchmens.

[smsgrafica]

I really hate that he retired the year Ogier got in the Polo. The 4 rallies they contested together that year have shown us how brilliant of a battle it could've been.

[AL14]

In my opinion Loeb is an amazing Rally driver, But he is also overwhelmingly overrated. If you look at the competition he had during 2004-2012 in the WRC it was rather weak overall with only Gronhom, Solberg, Martin, Sainz, Hirvonen and Latvala as true challengers to his titles. And during this period was there few manufactures in the WRC and Citroen was far ahead of any other manufactures during this period of time. Do you think Loeb would have been a 9 time WRC champ if he had competed from 1992-2003 instead? And if we look at Loeb´s performances in the WTCC and the WRX Loeb has not been overly impressive, And it seems like he struggles to race in traffic. Do you think its fair of me to say that Loeb is overrated as a driver?

Loeb overrated? What should have he done more than he did to be considered the best of all times?

[Watson]

What's the point of this thread? Surely 2017 and 2018 are the best seasons in a very, very long time i.e. the teams are more level and we have the most competitive drivers since the Sainz, McRae, Burns, Grönholm, Solberg, Martin days.

Yet, nothing will take away from 9 titles. The man was as class as it was boring to watch him win constantly.

[BigWorm]

He was pretty damn good.

[dimviii]

who is better ?

Neuville

[Simmi]

You could write a university thesis on this subject.

The whole beauty of different eras is that you simply can't compare. And it's only opinions anyway.

I actually do wonder whether Ogier might be better. Ask me in another couple of years.



One thing that would be quite cool to do is to compare two seasons in terms of driving talent and factory teams/machinery.

[dimviii]

I actually do wonder whether Ogier might be better. Ask me in another couple of years.


i dont remember Loeb winning championships while he was slower from his teamates or from drivers from other teams.
Always faster,at all his championships.

[Simmi]

i dont remember Loeb winning championships while he was slower from his teamates or from drivers from other teams.
Always faster,at all his championships.

This is why it's impossible to answer. Because to me I think last year's title strengthened Ogier's legacy. To you it must surely have weakened it.

[denkimi]

Loeb has set never before seen standards of clean, fast and reliable driving. And no one has managed to do the same yet, not even ogier.

What both sebs have in common, is blinding speed in the beginning of their career, and smart driving later on. They started trying to win every stage, and ended going only for the championship.

[dimviii]

To you it must surely have weakened it.

yes and i told you why.
Loeb never waited for others mistakes to be crowned champion,while hehad the less stage wins at any year.

[dimviii]

What both sebs have in common, is blinding speed in the beginning of their career, and smart driving later on. They started trying to win every stage, and ended going only for the championship.

Loeb at his last championship was winning stages as at his first years.

last years stats here
https://www.ewrc-results.com/season/2012/

[focus206]

In my opinion Loeb is an amazing Rally driver, But he is also overwhelmingly overrated. If you look at the competition he had during 2004-2012 in the WRC it was rather weak overall with only Gronhom, Solberg, Martin, Sainz, Hirvonen and Latvala as true challengers to his titles. And during this period was there few manufactures in the WRC and Citroen was far ahead of any other manufactures during this period of time. Do you think Loeb would have been a 9 time WRC champ if he had competed from 1992-2003 instead? And if we look at Loeb´s performances in the WTCC and the WRX Loeb has not been overly impressive, And it seems like he struggles to race in traffic. Do you think its fair of me to say that Loeb is overrated as a driver?

Given that it doesn't really make sense judging a rally driver over its performances in other motorsports... Loeb in WTCC hasn't been overly impressive? Finishing one point behind Yvan Muller, a legend of touring car racing, in his second season? Plus as it was already said, 2nd place in Le Mans 24h... I'd like to see rally drivers doing better than that.
What I find impressive about Loeb is his speed straight out of the box, when he was a rookie. With a partial program in the newborn Xsara WRC in 2002, already winning Deutschland and almost winning Monte against drivers like Gronholm, Burns, Panizzi, McRae, Sainz, Makinen, Solberg and 6 other works teams... and then fighting for the title already in 2003. And then winning 9 consecutive titles after that.

[Mise]

I got 2 things that lessen his greatness in my eyes.

1. The lack of tarmac drivers during his 9 tittles. he always had those 3 or 4 tarmac rallies, since there was no one near him in tarmac.
And that means drivers who were fighting for the title, not one rally.

2 We never saw the Ogier vs Loeb battle for the tittle in a different team.

On the other hand his neat driving style and the amount driving errors (almost none) makes him one of the best for sure

[N.O.T]

I got 2 things that lessen his greatness in my eyes.

1. The lack of tarmac drivers during his 9 tittles. he always had those 3 or 4 tarmac rallies, since there was no one near him in tarmac.
And that means drivers who were fighting for the title, not one rally.

2 We never saw the Ogier vs Loeb battle for the tittle in a different team.

On the other hand his neat driving style and the amount driving errors (almost none) makes him one of the best for sure

who is better than Loeb then ?

[spiderem]

the first seasons, the citroen was not overly dominant, and that's when the competition was the hardest in terms of manu and drivers, and yet he won on the championship on his 2nd full season? (correct me if i'm wrong) and only missed out to be champion the season before by 1 point.
So overall maybe the seasons after he had an "easy" ride but i would say his career start was the most impressive in terms of speed and raw talent... and the only one to match that in the modern era is Ogier in my opinion

[N.O.T]

and the only one to match that in the modern era is Ogier in my opinion

yes, but if people consider Loebs titles were because of the lesser competition which included 3 world champions (and 6 in 2003 were he was 1 point short and after team orders) then what can we say about Ogier who won all of his against zero world champions ?

[monaaniston]

Sebastian Loeb is still a great driver. He won't be participating throughout the whole season so hopefully it's already 6 titles to Sebastian Ogier! I personally love him.

[AL14]

Here is why Loeb is the best driver of all times:

1) He won a number of stages, rallys and world championship that other didn't even arrive near. Also, in terms of percentage between stages and stage wins/rallys rally-wins.

2) He won 9 titles, and before him the driver who won more title was Makinen who won less then a half and has been a bit lucky for some of them.

3) He won one championship missing nearly half of the events.

4) He destroyed the old school, won against the top drivers of his era and didn't allow young guns to do the same against him.

5) He changed the identity of rally driving. We judge a driver in a different way after him. Young boys learn to drive in a different way comparing to 90s or 80s.

What should have he done more than this not to be overrated?

[Mise]

who is better than Loeb then ?

There's 3 ways to answer this one.

1. Kankkunen, Mäkinen and Ogier.
Just the names, no arguments. Your answer will then be something about my medication.

2. No one.
And you will say nothing

3. The most interesting way: Let's say Loeb had driven for the tenth title with Ogier and lost.
Who would then be the greatest driver in your opinion? And why?

[Mise]

Here is why Loeb is the best driver of all times:

1) He won a number of stages, rallys and world championship that other didn't even arrive near. Also, in terms of percentage between stages and stage wins/rallys rally-wins.

2) He won 9 titles, and before him the driver who won more title was Makinen who won less then a half and has been a bit lucky for some of them.

3) He won one championship missing nearly half of the events.

4) He destroyed the old school, won against the top drivers of his era and didn't allow young guns to do the same against him.

5) He changed the identity of rally driving. We judge a driver in a different way after him. Young boys learn to drive in a different way comparing to 90s or 80s.

What should have he done more than this not to be overrated?

2) and Kankkunen. Doesn't take anything away from your arguments, just to get your facts straight.

[racerx1979]

Joe strikes me as a Ken Block fan...

[Joestlaachmkr]

I dont find Loeb impressive in either WTCC or in Rallycross RX, And you can easily see that he is not at good racing in traffic. Yes Loeb finished in third place one point behind Muller in WTCC 2015 but he also quite a lot of mistakes during his sejour in the WTCC, And you could see that he struggled while racing in traffic. His second place at Le Mans in 2006 was pretty damn impressive, And to be honest i think Loeb would have performed better if he had taken a career at endurance racing instead of touring cars or rallycross. Loeb is without a doubt one of the all time greats in motorsport, But i would say that he had an easy competition in the WRC between 2004-2012, And during this period Citroen was like what Ferrari was in F1 in the early 2000s.

[Joestlaachmkr]

Joe strikes me as a Ken Block fan...

Lol what?

[tommeke_B]

And during this period Citroen was like what Ferrari was in F1 in the early 2000s.
Citroën was were they were thanks to Loeb, I think... In 2003 Citroën attracted both Sainz and McRae, some of the greatest drivers of that era, and both couldn't do what Loeb did, while he was doing his very first full season in a WRCar. So to answer the question in the title, Loeb was the greatest rally driver of all time (for me), and the current top drivers wouldn't be at the level they're at now, if Loeb hadn't been there those years. What he has done in other disciplines is irrelevant, Raikkonen and Kubica tried rallying, failed to achieve what they wanted, but that doesn't make them any worse in F1.

[focus206]

I dont find Loeb impressive in either WTCC or in Rallycross RX, And you can easily see that he is not at good racing in traffic. Yes Loeb finished in third place one point behind Muller in WTCC 2015 but he also quite a lot of mistakes during his sejour in the WTCC, And you could see that he struggled while racing in traffic. His second place at Le Mans in 2006 was pretty damn impressive, And to be honest i think Loeb would have performed better if he had taken a career at endurance racing instead of touring cars or rallycross. Loeb is without a doubt one of the all time greats in motorsport, But i would say that he had an easy competition in the WRC between 2004-2012, And during this period Citroen was like what Ferrari was in F1 in the early 2000s.

He struggles to drive in the traffic because he's a rally driver. And nonetheless, he managed to be on pace with Yvan Muller. But even if he would have been much worse, in both touring car racing and rallycross, how does that influence how good of a RALLY driver he is?
About the easy competition, I do not agree. Gronholm was a great driver, Solberg as well. Hirvonen in his prime was very good also thanks to his consistency, and let's not forget McRae, Sainz and in part Makinen who yes, were in the last years of their careers, but they were still fast as it was proven in the final standings of those years. Much more competition than Ogier had in last years, for example.
Also that Citroen was like Ferrari, I do not agree. In 2004 and 2005 it was the best car but not by a great margin, where was Duval with his speed (when he wasn't crashing)? Then in 2006 he won, still using the old Xsara against the new Focus, even after skipping 4 rounds. In 2007, 2008 and in part 2009, the Focus wasn't inferior to the C4, at least not by a great margin. I'd say only 2009 and 2010 were "easy" titles to win, and even in 2009 Hirvonen fought until the last round thanks to his consistency. And 2012 too, but because of others' faults, Hirvonen not being able to match Loeb's pace, while Latvala and Solberg literally mistook everything they could mistake in the works Fiestas.

[RAS007]

After Gronholm retired, Loeb had no competition and that era was a really terrible time for the WRC. For me, Kankkunen is still the greatest due to 4 titles with 3 different manufacturers.

[N.O.T]

There's 3 ways to answer this one.

1. Kankkunen, Mäkinen and Ogier.
Just the names, no arguments. Your answer will then be something about my medication.

2. No one.
And you will say nothing

3. The most interesting way: Let's say Loeb had driven for the tenth title with Ogier and lost.
Who would then be the greatest driver in your opinion? And why?

1. if you throw names with no arguments then medication is not the solution unfortunately. but then again makinen is nothing.... he did what Loeb did but just 4 times and in one case he was extremely lucky. Kankunen is the main rival due to his achievements with an array of different manufacturers but also different era of car technology but he was nothing on tarmac... Ogiers career is not over to judge yet, but to me he is the closest rival of the aforementioned the fact that he managed to win with not the best car last year is a huge plus but also the fact that he won a championship while being not the fastest in a huge minus.

2. I will say that i agree with you

3. hypothetical questions are stupid and i am a very smart man.

[N.O.T]

I dont find Loeb impressive in either WTCC or in Rallycross RX, And you can easily see that he is not at good racing in traffic. Yes Loeb finished in third place one point behind Muller in WTCC 2015 but he also quite a lot of mistakes during his sejour in the WTCC, And you could see that he struggled while racing in traffic. His second place at Le Mans in 2006 was pretty damn impressive, And to be honest i think Loeb would have performed better if he had taken a career at endurance racing instead of touring cars or rallycross. Loeb is without a doubt one of the all time greats in motorsport, But i would say that he had an easy competition in the WRC between 2004-2012, And during this period Citroen was like what Ferrari was in F1 in the early 2000s.

what has wtcc and other girl motorsports have to do with rallying ? your question was if Loeb was the greatest in rallying ? or the greatest motorsport driver ? (which is also true if you take a look at in how many disciplines he has wins and records)

[seb_sh]

In my opinion Loeb is an amazing Rally driver, But he is also overwhelmingly overrated. If you look at the competition he had during 2004-2012 in the WRC it was rather weak overall with only Gronhom, Solberg, Martin, Sainz, Hirvonen and Latvala as true challengers to his titles. And during this period was there few manufactures in the WRC and Citroen was far ahead of any other manufactures during this period of time. Do you think Loeb would have been a 9 time WRC champ if he had competed from 1992-2003 instead? And if we look at Loeb´s performances in the WTCC and the WRX Loeb has not been overly impressive, And it seems like he struggles to race in traffic. Do you think its fair of me to say that Loeb is overrated as a driver?

You don't say what you mean exactly by "overwhelmingly overrated". In order to tell that you should refer to that "rating", but I assume you mean "the best rally driver of all time" because that's the highest rating he gets from some people. If you say he shouldn't have won 9 titles well he did, fair and square, knowing how many he would have won in another era is just speculation. The cars he was driving were not completely dominant, you can tell by looking at the results of his team-mates. His performance in WTCC was not impressive but you compare him with drivers who have a long touring car career or who were brought up in circuit racing. Also which other rally driver was so good in traffic that you can count that against him.

The only factual negative you can put on his career is that he won with only 1 team/manufacturer. His performances in other categories are positive or neutral at worst.

However his achievements are much more:
- he beat ALL of his team-mates
- he beat the following champions: McRae (same car), Sainz (same car), Makinen, Solberg (except for 2003), Gronholm - it's true some of them were at the end or final part of their careers but in total they had 10 drivers titles between them
- he beat Hirvonen (same car), Latvala, Ogier (same car - too bad we didn't get more battles when Ogier went VW) all of who would have been champions at least once during the time Loeb was competing if he wasn't there
- he is recognized as a good car developer
- he has a very good safety record
- he was able to adjust his speed very well according to conditions
- he won with 3 car generations with different technical regulations in very different conditions in all types of rallies

Going back to the idea of he is the greatest, if he is not then someone must be better, who could it be?
Judging by titles the closest are Ogier, Makinen and Kankkunen.
With Ogier vs Loeb it's hardest to say but Loeb did beat him directly, however Ogier won with two manufacturers now and depending on how his career goes there might be some debate. However if you think about the opposition and car you could argue Ogier had it easier than Loeb except last year.
Makinen vs Loeb in direct battles is in favor of Loeb, also at least one of Makinen's titles was somewhat lucky. Additionaly Makinen was too crash prone, I doubt he'd be able to challenge Loeb to a title plus he won titles in only one car in only one type of technical regulations.
Kankkunen is a good example, he won over a long time period with very different cars but he had one weakness that makes Loeb a more complete driver and that's tarmac.

With all the others the comparison is much more speculative and while it's definitely fun and interesting to wonder what if in reality the results are there for Loeb and not there for others.

As a disclaimer: I'm not a Loeb fanboy by any means, just so happens we share a similar name (hence my nickname on this forum), I was actually rooting for McRae and then switched to Solberg. But I do respect him very much even though it was very annoying that he kept winning all the time :P

[Joestlaachmkr]

He struggles to drive in the traffic because he's a rally driver. And nonetheless, he managed to be on pace with Yvan Muller. But even if he would have been much worse, in both touring car racing and rallycross, how does that influence how good of a RALLY driver he is?
About the easy competition, I do not agree. Gronholm was a great driver, Solberg as well. Hirvonen in his prime was very good also thanks to his consistency, and let's not forget McRae, Sainz and in part Makinen who yes, were in the last years of their careers, but they were still fast as it was proven in the final standings of those years. Much more competition than Ogier had in last years, for example.
Also that Citroen was like Ferrari, I do not agree. In 2004 and 2005 it was the best car but not by a great margin, where was Duval with his speed (when he wasn't crashing)? Then in 2006 he won, still using the old Xsara against the new Focus, even after skipping 4 rounds. In 2007, 2008 and in part 2009, the Focus wasn't inferior to the C4, at least not by a great margin. I'd say only 2009 and 2010 were "easy" titles to win, and even in 2009 Hirvonen fought until the last round thanks to his consistency. And 2012 too, but because of others' faults, Hirvonen not being able to match Loeb's pace, while Latvala and Solberg literally mistook everything they could mistake in the works Fiestas.

Yes, Loeb is terrible at racing in traffic. And in the WTCC was Loeb behind both his team mates Muller and Lopez, While in Rallycross RX he is behind his team mate Timmy Hansen. And i found it funny when he last year said that he would consider quitting Rallycross after 2018 if not the dominance of the VWs of Kristoffersson and Solberg leveled out in 2018, While neither Loeb himself nor any of his competitors said nothing like that during the dominance of Citroen where Loeb had an easy ride to his 9 straight WRC titles. And if you ask me the only years where there was great drivers with good cars who was capable of challenging Loeb & Citroen was in 2004,05,06 and 07. Between 2008-2012 Loeb literally had no serious competition. And like i said Loeb is an amazing driver, But he is also heavily overrated in my opinion.

[Joestlaachmkr]

After Gronholm retired, Loeb had no competition and that era was a really terrible time for the WRC. For me, Kankkunen is still the greatest due to 4 titles with 3 different manufacturers.

Exactly.

[ESTR]

What he achieve is that he almost killed the WRC. And in the end of 2017 of World RX season he complain that VW will make manus quitting of their dominance. What about Citroen and himself... And I would put him behind the wheel in the 70's, 80s where there were worst conditions and no much preparations like these days where there is 100 people behind one driver and 1000 behind the team.

[focus206]

Yes, Loeb is terrible at racing in traffic. And in the WTCC was Loeb behind both his team mates Muller and Lopez, While in Rallycross RX he is behind his team mate Timmy Hansen. And i found it funny when he last year said that he would consider quitting Rallycross after 2018 if not the dominance of the VWs of Kristoffersson and Solberg leveled out in 2018, While neither Loeb himself nor any of his competitors said nothing like that during the dominance of Citroen where Loeb had an easy ride to his 9 straight WRC titles. And if you ask me the only years where there was great drivers with good cars who was capable of challenging Loeb & Citroen was in 2004,05,06 and 07. Between 2008-2012 Loeb literally had no serious competition. And like i said Loeb is an amazing driver, But he is also heavily overrated in my opinion.

Terrible? Not even remotely close to be terrible. No driver terrible at racing in the traffic can achieve 3rd in WTCC and 2nd in Le Mans.
In Rallycross he's behind Timmy Hansen? Loeb finished both 2016 and 2017 ahead of Hansen in the final standings, what are you talking about?
Between 2008 and 2012, he had Hirvonen as a challenger, which many of you seem to understimate quite a lot. And in 2011, he had Ogier as a challenger as well (I'm not counting the previous years in which Ogier was a rookie). Let's not forget that Hirvonen wasn't far behind in many occasions against his team-mate Gronholm, that he fought until the last rally against Loeb in 2009 and once again against Loeb and Ogier in 2011, actually finishing 2nd in the 2011 final standings ahead of Ogier. Saying that he wasn't a competition against 2 of the greatests like Loeb and Ogier, is just wrong in my opinion.

[L555MAT]

Citroën was were they were thanks to Loeb, I think... In 2003 Citroën attracted both Sainz and McRae, some of the greatest drivers of that era, and both couldn't do what Loeb did, while he was doing his very first full season in a WRCar. So to answer the question in the title, Loeb was the greatest rally driver of all time (for me), and the current top drivers wouldn't be at the level they're at now, if Loeb hadn't been there those years. What he has done in other disciplines is irrelevant, Raikkonen and Kubica tried rallying, failed to achieve what they wanted, but that doesn't make them any worse in F1.

Lets be fair Mcrae and Sainz were both well past their primes at this point. Mcrae in his prime was arguable the fastest driver ever in the WRC (not nessecarily the best). Sainz is definately a contender for the GOAT imho.

[seb_sh]

Lets be fair Mcrae and Sainz were both well past their primes at this point. Mcrae in his prime was arguable the fastest driver ever in the WRC (not nessecarily the best). Sainz is definately a contender for the GOAT imho.

they weren't that "vintage" and Loeb was in his first full season, I doubt anyone expected him to beat them at the time.

[N.O.T]

Lets be fair Mcrae and Sainz were both well past their primes at this point. Mcrae in his prime was arguable the fastest driver ever in the WRC (not nessecarily the best). Sainz is definately a contender for the GOAT imho.

Mcrae was 35, so not beyond his prime, at 35 loeb was winning titles with ease...

Sainz is certainly one of the sports greats but far away from even remotely to be considered as the best ever, lets not forget than during his last years
telefonica was the only reason he had a seat and not his skills.

[ESTR]

Well Sainz win dakar two times, Loeb didn't manage to do that one time and probably never will after Peugeot drop. And Sainz is one old dude now and that race is for my opinion hardest than WTCC, Rallycross combined.

[N.O.T]

Well Sainz win dakar two times, Loeb didn't manage to do that one time and probably never will after Peugeot drop. And Sainz is one old dude now and that race is for my opinion hardest than WTCC, Rallycross combined.

yes but what dakar has to do with the greatest of all times in the WRC...

for example Loeb has the absolute record in pikes peak as well which i think its far bigger achievement than winning a marathon rally where navigation and even luck has much bigger influence on the final result than rally speed. Gronholm went there as well as WRX and got his ass kicked by burger boys.

who else has wins and records in so many disiplines other than Loeb in order to discredit him ?

[focus206]

Well Sainz win dakar two times, Loeb didn't manage to do that one time and probably never will after Peugeot drop. And Sainz is one old dude now and that race is for my opinion hardest than WTCC, Rallycross combined.

Sainz has 2 Dakar victories in how many attempts? Like 12? Really cannot compare that.

[AL14]

Lets be fair Mcrae and Sainz were both well past their primes at this point. Mcrae in his prime was arguable the fastest driver ever in the WRC (not nessecarily the best). Sainz is definately a contender for the GOAT imho.

The fact is that while at the end of their career those guys were clearly beaten by Loeb, no one did the same with Loeb himself, not even Ogier who is the only one capable to keep the comparison in my opinion.

[Mirek]

Why is this topic coming back over and over again? Why do people have a need to downplay achievements of the best?

[Sulland]

Loeb was the best of his time. End of story.

One of the things he was best at, was to study the route in advance and choose a few to do max attack on. He often suddenly built a big lead with that tactic.
Ogier does some of the same.

Some other important of the whys are already listed:

- he beat ALL of his team-mates
- he beat the following champions: McRae (same car), Sainz (same car), Makinen, Solberg (except for 2003), Gronholm - it's true some of them were at the end or final part of their careers but in total they had 10 drivers titles between them
- he beat Hirvonen (same car), Latvala, Ogier (same car - too bad we didn't get more battles when Ogier went VW) all of who would have been champions at least once during the time Loeb was competing if he wasn't there
- he is recognized as a good car developer
- he has a very good safety record
- he was able to adjust his speed very well according to conditions
- he won with 3 car generations with different technical regulations in very different conditions in all types of rallies.

lets see this year how he will tacle the C3. But I think he is tough to do this. If he fails, people will use that against him.

[Coach 2]

Loeb has won the most rally of all and that makes him great, but it's another thing he also has the most of, and that's what makes him the greatest in my eyes.

What is that?

[Marcco]

Loeb has won the most rally of all and that makes him great, but it's another thing he also has the most of, and that's what makes him the greatest in my eyes.

What is that?

Consistency?

[MikeD]

In my opinion Loeb is an amazing Rally driver, But he is also overwhelmingly overrated. If you look at the competition he had during 2004-2012 in the WRC it was rather weak overall with only Gronhom, Solberg, Martin, Sainz, Hirvonen and Latvala as true challengers to his titles. And during this period was there few manufactures in the WRC and Citroen was far ahead of any other manufactures during this period of time. Do you think Loeb would have been a 9 time WRC champ if he had competed from 1992-2003 instead? And if we look at Loeb´s performances in the WTCC and the WRX Loeb has not been overly impressive, And it seems like he struggles to race in traffic. Do you think its fair of me to say that Loeb is overrated as a driver?

Oh no, not again. Not another idiot who thinks he can sit in his arm chair and call a 9 time champion over rated. Loeb made everybody else look mediocre on his way to 78 wins and a total of 116 podiums. He was that good. Consistant and fast and with very few DNF's to his name. So learn a bit about the rally sport before you stupid stuff like this.

[Mr C1412]

He also dominated every championship he competed in prior to joining WRC - including the French Citroen Trophy and the Super 1600 (now JWRC) championship which were both very competitive at the time. No driver got near him on pace alone.

[cali]

2) and Kankkunen. Doesn't take anything away from your arguments, just to get your facts straight.

Kankkunen was utterly crap on tarmac, thus far away in any kind of discussions what concerns Loeb The Great. No other comes close of beating everyone else on his way, mastering all surfaces. Just look at his win ratio. And the competition was there, he just demolished them in a way that everybody thinks the opposition was weak. It wasn't. Without him you would praise Grönholm as the best ever. He demolished him. Period.

[ESTR]

He also dominated every championship he competed in prior to joining WRC - including the French Citroen Trophy and the Super 1600 (now JWRC) championship which were both very competitive at the time. No driver got near him on pace alone.

Very competitive you say. He dominated ypu say. Well if no one got near him then there is no competitive championship at all. It's like every rally with WRC2. Usually Skoda fac. drivers are bored of no competitive drivers...

[dimviii]

Very competitive you say. He dominated ypu say. Well if no one got near him then there is no competitive championship at all. It's like every rally with WRC2. Usually Skoda fac. drivers are bored of no competitive drivers...

seems you havent got a clue about what he did at JWRC.
He went first time to Catalunya he won
he went first time to Acropolis he won
he went first time to Finland he won
he went first time to Corsica he won
he went first time to Great Britain he won
only at Sanremo he didnt won because he was entered with xsara wrc where he lost the win from Panizzi for 11 sec,while he beat Auriol,Sainz,Gronholm,McRae,Solberg,Rovanpera,Dele cour,Rovanpera,Loix from 5 different works teams.

Loeb is another level from everybody,even from his first steps was something we havent saw,and i doubt we will see again.
Comparisons with Kankunen Makinen etc are laughable.
Another point with very big meaning for me, at least,is that he wasnt a kid with rich father,nor with backing from Jouhki,Even etc.
A young electrician from Alsace that destroyed everybody,with pure speed and consistency at every surface.

[focus206]

Very competitive you say. He dominated ypu say. Well if no one got near him then there is no competitive championship at all. It's like every rally with WRC2. Usually Skoda fac. drivers are bored of no competitive drivers...

So... Loeb was not actually that good because he was so much faster than his competition... right, that makes sense. When you defeat so many world champions that people go as far as saying "he had no competition"...

[Augury]

seems you havent got a clue about what he did at JWRC.
He went first time to Catalunya he won
he went first time to Acropolis he won
he went first time to Finland he won
he went first time to Corsica he won
he went first time to Great Britain he won
only at Sanremo he didnt won because he was entered with xsara wrc where he lost the win from Panizzi for 11 sec,while he beat Auriol,Sainz,Gronholm,McRae,Solberg,Rovanpera,Dele cour,Rovanpera,Loix from 5 different works teams.

Loeb is another level from everybody,even from his first steps was something we havent saw,and i doubt we will see again.
Comparisons with Kankunen Makinen etc are laughable.
Another point with very big meaning for me, at least,is that he wasnt a kid with rich father,nor with backing from Jouhki,Even etc.
A young electrician from Alsace that destroyed everybody,with pure speed and consistency at every surface.

/thread

[Allez Andruet]

Kankkunen was utterly crap on tarmac
What is it with the wording people tend to use these days? Talking about a four-time World Champ, and some Estonian jerk feels it's correct to use phrase "utterly crap"... o tempora, o mores.

But anyway, going back to the subject... I'm astonished about how silly arguments (for and against Le Maestro) some forum members, who otherwise seem to understand the sport, have used here. Is Loeb the greatest of all time...? Well, could be, and I'd probably vote for him myself as well, but it's not like a no-contest. First of all, when we're comparing Loeb vs. other greats of this great sport, we're comparing guys of different sports. The sport Loeb mastered didn't exist in the 70's and vice versa. And oh how I feel nauseous everytime someone mentions that Loeb has so and so many wins in WRC... That has to be the most irrelevant statistics there is (on this specific topic).

That all being said, the only way to make any kind of comparision between the greats of different eras, is to compare the achievements within that era. I don't have the time now to specify all the elements that need be taken into consideration for each one, but the conclusion is, that when we're discussing about who's the greatest rally driver there's ever been, it all comes down to four gentlemen (in alphabetical order):

Sebastien Loeb
Juha Kankkunen
Hannu Mikkola
Carlos Sainz

You can make case for each one, depending on what you want to emphasize.

[cali]

What is it with the wording people tend to use these days? Talking about a four-time World Champ, and some Estonian jerk feels it's correct to use phrase "utterly crap"... o tempora, o mores.

But anyway, going back to the subject... I'm astonished about how silly arguments (for and against Le Maestro) some forum members, who otherwise seem to understand the sport, have used here. Is Loeb the greatest of all time...? Well, could be, and I'd probably vote for him myself as well, but it's not like a no-contest. First of all, when we're comparing Loeb vs. other greats of this great sport, we're comparing guys of different sports. The sport Loeb mastered didn't exist in the 70's and vice versa. And oh how I feel nauseous everytime someone mentions that Loeb has so and so many wins in WRC... That has to be the most irrelevant statistics there is (on this specific topic).

That all being said, the only way to make any kind of comparision between the greats of different eras, is to compare the achievements within that era. I don't have the time now to specify all the elements that need be taken into consideration for each one, but the conclusion is, that when we're discussing about who's the greatest rally driver there's ever been, it all comes down to four gentlemen (in alphabetical order):

Sebastien Loeb
Juha Kankkunen
Hannu Mikkola
Carlos Sainz

You can make case for each one, depending on what you want to emphasize.Speaking the truth gets the best name-calling out of you? I won't go as low as you went. I rely on statistics. He was crap compared to Loeb in every aspects you can get. Great driver but utterly crap compared to Loeb, specially on tarmac. Can't stand the truth?

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[Allez Andruet]

I rely on statistics. He was crap compared to Loeb in every aspects you can get.

Then feel free to share the statistics you're referring to.

[cali]

Then feel free to share the statistics you're referring to.Juwra helps you, feel free to look some 9 wc titles, 72 rally wins etc. Have a look my friend

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[Allez Andruet]

Juwra helps you, feel free to look some 9 wc titles, 72 rally wins etc. Have a look my friend

Let me just quote myself:


And oh how I feel nauseous everytime someone mentions that Loeb has so and so many wins in WRC

[cali]

Let me just quote myself:I know it hurts

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[Allez Andruet]

I know it hurts
Nah, it doesn't. I just feel genuinely sorry for people who are unable to justify their opinion. But don't worry, it's still nice you're atleast trying to follow the sport.

[cali]

Nah, it doesn't. I just feel genuinely sorry for people who are unable to justify their opinion. But don't worry, it's still nice you're atleast trying to follow the sport.Okay, I'm being an adult here and step aside. You are right ofcourse.

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[Allez Andruet]

You are right ofcourse.

I know I am, but thanks anyway.

[cali]

I know I am, but thanks anyway.Youre welcome! Sleep tight!

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[Mr C1412]

Very competitive you say. He dominated ypu say. Well if no one got near him then there is no competitive championship at all. It's like every rally with WRC2. Usually Skoda fac. drivers are bored of no competitive drivers...

You don’t know much about rallying and are not making much sense at all

He beat drivers in a 1 make series, yet you compare him to Skoda drivers in WRC2.

The JWRC used to have some great drivers and Loeb best them all. He made Nail McShae look pretty average in the same car. I doubt you know who Nial McShae is mind.

[denkimi]

Another point with very big meaning for me, at least,is that he wasnt a kid with rich father,nor with backing from Jouhki,Even etc.
A young electrician from Alsace that destroyed everybody,with pure speed and consistency at every surface.
I think thats why he's so succesfull.
He actually was one of the few who got there on talent. And thats really rare in rallying.

Unlike lots of other sports like football, where you have tens of thousands of young people trying, and ony the best make it. In rallying there's only a few hundered trying, and even then most of them never get a chance to prove themself because they never find the money.
Its a rich people's sport, and connections and money are more important than raw talent.

I believe that there are a lot of talented people out there, some of them even more talented than loeb or any driver whe have a ever seen. But they dont have a daddy who gives them a group n evo when they are 6, or an family business who pays for a few full seasons of wrc.
So they only start when they already work a few years, which is in their mid 20's. And they work their ass off to barely be able to afford an r2 car, but they can't afford to crash it, they can't maintain it properly and the don't have anyone to guide them. In the meantime some rich kid hires the best car from the best team available, pays for a professional co-pilot and gets driving lessons from a professional driver.

A real cheap - think cheaper then R1 - 1 make cup with professional support and guidance could probably reveal some big talent.

[Watson]

I can't believe this dumb thread is still going on. The initial question was: Is Loeb overrated? Which of course he is not. Is he the greatest of all time? Not only is that not the question in hand, it is also impossible to answer if we don't all agree on numbers of titles and wins as the appropriate measurment.

[janvanvurpa]

Speaking the truth gets the best name-calling out of you? I won't go as low as you went. I rely on statistics. He was crap compared to Loeb in every aspects you can get. Great driver but utterly crap compared to Loeb, specially on tarmac. Can't stand the truth?

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Cali you are not relying on statstic, you are relying on emotional words...
Patience and consider what I say...
There is a terrible amount of what I call "fan boi based exaggeration"..
Loeb was good...but when the gap after 3+ hours of SS ti,es is 5-15-30 seconds you go and do the statstics, the % difference and I think you will see that 0.3% difference between Loeb and Grönholm is not "CRUSHING!"

Crushing is what Happened to the American "rally God" Ben Klock when even after 4 years he lose 2-5 minutes to the real guys per SS. That is crushing. When after 4 yeats spending 4-5 million a year he gets his SS times beaten by 2 guys in Golfs and 1 in a 940 Volvo in the Swedish class Grupp H...
THAT is crushing
...3% time difference is beating, 0,3% is enough but!!

And everybody talks this absurd way except...except..
serious drivers.

Now come on do some work with the calculator, stop sh!t-talking

[denkimi]

Cali you are not relying on statstic, you are relying on emotional words...
Patience and consider what I say...
There is a terrible amount of what I call "fan boi based exaggeration"..
Loeb was good...but when the gap after 3+ hours of SS ti,es is 5-15-30 seconds you go and do the statstics, the % difference and I think you will see that 0.3% difference between Loeb and Grönholm is not "CRUSHING!"

Crushing is what Happened to the American "rally God" Ben Klock when even after 4 years he lose 2-5 minutes to the real guys per SS. That is crushing. When after 4 yeats spending 4-5 million a year he gets his SS times beaten by 2 guys in Golfs and 1 in a 940 Volvo in the Swedish class Grupp H...
THAT is crushing
...3% time difference is beating, 0,3% is enough but!!

And everybody talks this absurd way except...except..
serious drivers.

Now come on do some work with the calculator, stop sh!t-talking
If we rely on statistics, loeb has crushed everyone.

Oh, and remember that time loeb crashed in monte, got a 5 minutes penalty and still finished only a minute behind gronholm? That is crushing, even without statistics.

[Allez Andruet]

Is he the greatest of all time? Not only is that not the question in hand, it is also impossible to answer if we don't all agree on numbers of titles and wins as the appropriate measurment.
But how could we agree on that? What is that statistics, which we could use for comparing the greats of different eras (number vs. number)? My point is, and as I wrote earlier, I'd also vote for Loeb, but it's defintely up for discussion, not a no-contest.

[Allez Andruet]

If we rely on statistics, loeb has crushed everyone.
Yeah, and once the WRC calendar has 100 rallies in a season and one guy happens to win 90 of them, he's crushed Loeb. Genius.

[cali]

Yeah, and once the WRC calendar has 100 rallies in a season and one guy happens to win 90 of them, he's crushed Loeb. Genius.

http://www.juwra.com/driver_statistics_win_ratio.html

You really should look at this site, made by a finn. Great work done with this site. Have a look before you post some nonsense again.

[denkimi]

Yeah, and once the WRC calendar has 100 rallies in a season and one guy happens to win 90 of them, he's crushed Loeb. Genius.

As cali said. Look at the victory numbers in comparison with the number of starts. The conclusion stays the same, statistically loeb has crushed every one.

[Allez Andruet]

http://www.juwra.com/driver_statistics_win_ratio.html

You really should look at this site, made by a finn. Great work done with this site. Have a look before you post some nonsense again.
Uuuh... "nonsense" :p

[Allez Andruet]

As cali said. Look at the victory numbers in comparison with the number of starts. The conclusion stays the same, statistically loeb has crushed every one.
I can look at that number, no problem. Now I only need to know what does it tell. How do I use that number if I want to compare Loeb to Hannu Mikkola or Walter Röhrl for example?

In a nutshell: yes, I do agree that Loeb is the best ever, but everyone who's justifying that argument by pointing to some figures which aren't comparable between the participants, has no clue about comparing basically anything.

[denkimi]

I can look at that number, no problem. Now I only need to know what does it tell. How do I use that number if I want to compare Loeb to Hannu Mikkola or Walter Röhrl for example?

In a nutshell: yes, I do agree that Loeb is the best ever, but everyone who's justifying that argument by pointing to some figures which aren't comparable between the participants, has no clue about comparing basically anything.
It only tells that loeb is statistically the best.
I'm not saying that makes him te best of all time, since statistics don't show how much off it is due to the car, lack of opponents or other factors.
But janvanpuura claimed that the statistics don't show that loeb crushed gronholm, but they clearly do.

[Allez Andruet]

It only tells that loeb is statistically the best.
No. Again - in this sport there's no such statistics which is comparable between the drivers of different eras, thus the claim of being "statistically the best" is irrelevant.

[Marcco]

The fact, that these kind of topics emerge 6 years after Loeb retired, makes him the greatest :)

[denkimi]

No. Again - in this sport there's no such statistics which is comparable between the drivers of different eras, thus the claim of being "statistically the best" is irrelevant.
Facts are never wrong. And the hard facts say he is the best of all time in nearly every comparisson. Those statistics are the only objective way to compare drivers, all other things you can come up with are opinions.

You can claim that other drivers where better, and you might be correct.
But that's not what the statistics say.

[AndyRAC]

The fact, that these kind of topics emerge 6 years after Loeb retired, makes him the greatest :)

Retired? He's still active in motorsport....he just changed disciplines.

[Allez Andruet]

Facts are never wrong.
Correct. And the fact is, that we have no comparable statistics.


Those statistics are the only objective way to compare drivers, all other things you can come up with are opinions.
Ofcourse they're not objective. If we talk about rallysport (the format or formats that have been used since early 60's - which includes rallies with special stages and the so-called endurance events which didn't have them) we have to look at much longer period than the one the statistics are showing us. That should be pretty clear for everyone who's done any kind of research within this great sport.

Example: Now if you look at the statistics, they say that Loeb has 169 WRC starts and Hannu Mikkola has 123 WRC starts. But ofcourse everyone with any kind of rallying knowledge understands that this doesn't tell you anything, i.e. comparing those two figures as "statistics" is total nonsense.

[Coach 2]

What is it with the wording people tend to use these days? Talking about a four-time World Champ, and some Estonian jerk feels it's correct to use phrase "utterly crap"... o tempora, o mores.

But anyway, going back to the subject... I'm astonished about how silly arguments (for and against Le Maestro) some forum members, who otherwise seem to understand the sport, have used here. Is Loeb the greatest of all time...? Well, could be, and I'd probably vote for him myself as well, but it's not like a no-contest. First of all, when we're comparing Loeb vs. other greats of this great sport, we're comparing guys of different sports. The sport Loeb mastered didn't exist in the 70's and vice versa. And oh how I feel nauseous everytime someone mentions that Loeb has so and so many wins in WRC... That has to be the most irrelevant statistics there is (on this specific topic).

That all being said, the only way to make any kind of comparision between the greats of different eras, is to compare the achievements within that era. I don't have the time now to specify all the elements that need be taken into consideration for each one, but the conclusion is, that when we're discussing about who's the greatest rally driver there's ever been, it all comes down to four gentlemen (in alphabetical order):

Sebastien Loeb
Juha Kankkunen
Hannu Mikkola
Carlos Sainz

You can make case for each one, depending on what you want to emphasize.

Why Hannu and Carlos and not Mækinen.

[Coach 2]

Okay guys, one more time.
Loeb has won 78 WRC rally. But it is also something else he has most of, and it's really very illogical. Some other drivers should have the most of this.
Ogier showed the same property in the season 2017. Meek showed the total opposite.
What am I aiming for?
This is what makes him the best of all time. But it seems that Ogier has the same property.

[stefanvv]

Okay guys, one more time.
Loeb has won 78 WRC rally. But it is also something else he has most of, and it's really very illogical. Some other drivers should have the most of this.
Ogier showed the same property in the season 2017. Meek showed the total opposite.
What am I aiming for?
This is what makes him the best of all time. But it seems that Ogier has the same property.

Brain?

[ESTR]

I think that Ogier is aiming to shit all your brains out to become best of all. 😂 just wait couple of years, when he will have 13 wrc titles (probably 3 different manus-if skoda get in he will get the seat). Probably wec title and some others I don't know what he is interesting in.

PS: maybe I should post this in Crystal Ball

[Allez Andruet]

Why Hannu and Carlos and not Mækinen.

Briefly: Tommi's career on the absolute top was relatively short compared to those two.

[RAS007]

There has been some fairly amusing hyperventilating on this thread over the last few days. My personal favourites: calling Kankkunen "crap", and stating that to compare Loeb with Makinen or Kankkunen is "laughable". These are patently ridiculous statements. There are more than a few Loeb lovers on these boards, of which I am not one, but lets try and keep the discussion within the bounds of reality. Loeb is certainly one of the greatest rally drivers who ever lived. For me, he's not the best ever, but thats a matter of personal opinion. I think that part of the reason Loeb evokes such extreme reactions in people is that the Loeb era, or at least the second half of it, was probably one of the worst eras in the WRC, with very little competition or manufacturer participation and a declining visibility for the sport. Thankfully, those days seem to be long gone.

[dimviii]

My personal favourites: calling Kankkunen "crap", and stating that to compare Loeb with Makinen or Kankkunen is "laughable". These are patently ridiculous statements..
the only ridiculous statement is that a driver that cant win at asphalt is a better driver than Loeb.

was probably one of the worst eras in the WRC, with very little competition or manufacturer participation and a declining visibility for the sport. Thankfully, those days seem to be long gone.
2017 championship team, was the same rival team for years as the ''worst era with Loeb dominating''

reality check done.

[focus206]

I think that part of the reason Loeb evokes such extreme reactions in people is that the Loeb era, or at least the second half of it, was probably one of the worst eras in the WRC, with very little competition or manufacturer participation and a declining visibility for the sport. Thankfully, those days seem to be long gone.

Not true. I'd take a look at the 2011 season. By comparison, Ogier's championships with VW had much less competition, but that doesn't really take that much away from Ogier because he destroyed everyone anyway.
It's true that in some years there were very little manufacturer participation, but it's not like there were very fast drivers sitting at home because of lack of manufacturer seats...

[cali]

There has been some fairly amusing hyperventilating on this thread over the last few days. My personal favourites: calling Kankkunen "crap", and stating that to compare Loeb with Makinen or Kankkunen is "laughable". These are patently ridiculous statements. There are more than a few Loeb lovers on these boards, of which I am not one, but lets try and keep the discussion within the bounds of reality. Loeb is certainly one of the greatest rally drivers who ever lived. For me, he's not the best ever, but thats a matter of personal opinion. I think that part of the reason Loeb evokes such extreme reactions in people is that the Loeb era, or at least the second half of it, was probably one of the worst eras in the WRC, with very little competition or manufacturer participation and a declining visibility for the sport. Thankfully, those days seem to be long gone.Here we go again selective reading skills at it's finest. Crap in asphalt, didn't call him overall like that. Mentioned he's a great driver but lacking asphalt skills. Really hard to understand? A complete driver has to master all the surfaces and KKK was nowhere near the best pace in asphalt. Thus should not be mentioned in a discussion best ever.

It's quite weird that you lower your standards so low as comparing a driver with almost a 4 times less rally wins, below average in tarmac to the only guy who has 46% win ratio, 12% retirement ratio, a guy who beat his closest rival by not participating in a 4 last decisive rallyes and still clinching a title. The list goes on...

And I'm the least Loeb fan here, I found his dominance quite irritating at the time. But you can't take away his achievements, this guy has done something that noone did before and probably noone will do it after. Putting some random guys in the mix whit no proof, no facts and lowering standards for some of them and to raise the standards for the guy do not like....

This is what I find amusing

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[cali]

Not true. I'd take a look at the 2011 season. By comparison, Ogier's championships with VW had much less competition, but that doesn't really take that much away from Ogier because he destroyed everyone anyway.
It's true that in some years there were very little manufacturer participation, but it's not like there were very fast drivers sitting at home because of lack of manufacturer seats...There has always been only around 3 manus in the chamionship and some odd team trying to cone into play. 80's Audi, Pug and Lancia. 90's Ford, Toyota and Lancia. Mid 90's Subaru, Mitsubishi, Toyota and Ford and so on. Overall the quantity of the competition has stayed roughly the same throughout the years.

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[RAS007]

There has always been only around 3 manus in the chamionship and some odd team trying to cone into play. 80's Audi, Pug and Lancia. 90's Ford, Toyota and Lancia. Mid 90's Subaru, Mitsubishi, Toyota and Ford and so on. Overall the quantity of the competition has stayed roughly the same throughout the years.

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In 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 there were only two manufacturer teams: Citroen and Ford, unless you are counting the stillborn Mini project.

[dimviii]

In 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 there were only two manufacturer teams: Citroen and Ford, unless you are counting the stillborn Mini project.

whats the problem with 2 manufacturers? At the era you mentioned at previous posts ,they were skoda with octavia and hyundai with accent.Did they offer proper competition?
competition doesnt come always with quantity.

reality check Lancia 037 vs audi quattro ,2 players plenty of competition.
Ogier era with vw against citroen/ford/hyundai no competition.
with your theory lancia vs audi was no competition,but there was at polo/Ogier years.
No it was the opposite.

[janvanvurpa]

If we rely on statistics, loeb has crushed everyone.

Oh, and remember that time loeb crashed in monte, got a 5 minutes penalty and still finished only a minute behind gronholm? That is crushing, even without statistics.

Ok sure. On that event on that day he "crushed" Grönholm..
But when Grönholm beat him then he must have "crushed" Loeb...That day..At that event..
I'm just saying the the words used are silly.
It's like when F1 fan-bois pee their pants on those rare occasions that one guy actually passes another they try to find superlatives to "BRILLIANT!!!!" yeah, right every pass is brilliant so the latest pass is what "Hyper-brilliant"?

[RAS007]

whats the problem with 2 manufacturers? At the era you mentioned at previous posts ,they were skoda with octavia and hyundai with accent.Did they offer proper competition?
competition doesnt come always with quantity.

reality check Lancia 037 vs audi quattro ,2 players plenty of competition.
Ogier era with vw against citroen/ford/hyundai no competition.
with your theory lancia vs audi was no competition,but there was at polo/Ogier years.
No it was the opposite.

The problem with 2 manufacturers is that, in general, it means less competition. You cannot seriously claim that from 2009-2012, with only Citroen and Ford, there was the same level of competition as say 2000-2004, when there were at least 4 manufacturers, all fielding ex-world champion drivers. That's just not rational.

If I agree with your assertion that in the "Ogier era with VW against Citroen/Ford/Hyundai no competition", then you'd surely have to admit that there was no competition from 2009-2012 either.

[N.O.T]

The problem with 2 manufacturers is that, in general, it means less competition. You cannot seriously claim that from 2009-2012, with only Citroen and Ford, there was the same level of competition as say 2000-2004, when there were at least 4 manufacturers, all fielding ex-world champion drivers. That's just not rational.

If I agree with your assertion that in the "Ogier era with VW against Citroen/Ford/Hyundai no competition", then you'd surely have to admit that there was no competition from 2009-2012 either.

https://i.imgur.com/Cdh7CCa.jpg

[dimviii]

The problem with 2 manufacturers is that, in general, it means less competition. You cannot seriously claim that from 2009-2012, with only Citroen and Ford, there was the same level of competition as say 2000-2004, when there were at least 4 manufacturers, all fielding ex-world champion drivers. That's just not rational.

If I agree with your assertion that in the "Ogier era with VW against Citroen/Ford/Hyundai no competition", then you'd surely have to admit that there was no competition from 2009-2012 either.

2009 Loeb won with 1 point from Hirvonen.No competition?
2010 Loeb won with big margin against Hirvonen,Latvala,Solberg,Ogier,Sordo. No competition?
2011 Loeb won 222 points against 218 for Hirvonen and 196 for Ogier and 172for Latvala.No competition?

to admit that there is ''no competition'' you have to examinate properly each year.
If a driver wins some championships in a row that doesnt mean that ''there is no competition'' but that he was better from his rivals.
boring that wins the same person? Maybe,but NOT that there is no competition

[RAS007]

So when Loeb wins, there was competition. When anyone else wins, there was no competition. Got it.

[Allez Andruet]

Here we go again selective reading skills at it's finest. Crap in asphalt, didn't call him overall like that. Mentioned he's a great driver but lacking asphalt skills. Really hard to understand? A complete driver has to master all the surfaces and KKK was nowhere near the best pace in asphalt. Thus should not be mentioned in a discussion best ever.
Seriously, how retard are you? I mean... I get that you're an Estonian and all that, but Jesus Christ... have you ever noticed or heard, that the guys competing for the title in the 80's PICKED the rallies they entered? In an era where it would make no sense from the rules perspective to enter all events, you know?


It's quite weird that you lower your standards so low as comparing a driver with almost a 4 times less rally wins, below average in tarmac to the only guy who has 46% win ratio, 12% retirement ratio
And you idiot compare the retirement ratio of 2000's with one of 80's and 90's? And you count rally wins? I bet Timo Mäkinen won more rallies than Loeb did. How's that?

And yes, I also think that Loeb is the best there ever was, but how utterly mentally challenged you have to be, if your case is based on pure numbers in a sport that has been revolutionized a few times during the time period we all should be looking at?

[dimviii]

So when Loeb wins, there was competition. When anyone else wins, there was no competition. Got it.

thats your conclusion,not mine.

[AL14]

Seriously, how retard are you? I mean... I get that you're an Estonian and all that, but Jesus Christ... have you ever noticed or heard, that the guys competing for the title in the 80's PICKED the rallies they entered? In an era where it would make no sense from the rules perspective to enter all events, you know?


And you idiot compare the retirement ratio of 2000's with one of 80's and 90's? And you count rally wins? I bet Timo Mäkinen won more rallies than Loeb did. How's that?

And yes, I also think that Loeb is the best there ever was, but how utterly mentally challenged you have to be, if your case is based on pure numbers in a sport that has been revolutionized a few times during the time period we all should be looking at?

Go insult people somewhere else or start practicing sport to free some endorphins and let us discuss things in a civil way.

[Allez Andruet]

Go insult people somewhere else or start practicing sport to free some endorphins and let us discuss things in a civil way.

Comparing numbers ain't discussing.

[RAS007]

thats your conclusion,not mine.

That's the only conclusion that could be drawn based on the evidence as you've presented it. Your unwillingness or inability to entertain, let alone accept, an alternate opinion to your own makes it very difficult to have a reasonable discussion. I've admitted that I'm no fan of Loeb, and also stated that he's undoubtedly one of the greatest rally drivers who has ever lived, but that doesn't seem to be enough. I get the impression that I could post on this forum stating that the sky was blue and you'd find a way to disagree. Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion, as am I, and that is after all, the point of these forums.

[dimviii]

That's the only conclusion that could be drawn based on the evidence as you've presented it. Your unwillingness or inability to entertain, let alone accept, an alternate opinion to your own makes it very difficult to have a reasonable discussion. I've admitted that I'm no fan of Loeb, and also stated that he's undoubtedly one of the greatest rally drivers who has ever lived, but that doesn't seem to be enough. I get the impression that I could post on this forum stating that the sky was blue and you'd find a way to disagree. Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion, as am I, and that is after all, the point of these forums.

i am not telling my opinion,i give facts.

[RAS007]

Your unwillingness or inability to entertain, let alone accept, an alternate opinion to your own makes it very difficult to have a reasonable discussion.



i am not telling my opinion,i give facts.


I rest my case.

[dimviii]

I rest my case.

good,but you failed to show us where was the ''no competition'' at these years.

[focus206]

That's the only conclusion that could be drawn based on the evidence as you've presented it. Your unwillingness or inability to entertain, let alone accept, an alternate opinion to your own makes it very difficult to have a reasonable discussion. I've admitted that I'm no fan of Loeb, and also stated that he's undoubtedly one of the greatest rally drivers who has ever lived, but that doesn't seem to be enough. I get the impression that I could post on this forum stating that the sky was blue and you'd find a way to disagree. Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion, as am I, and that is after all, the point of these forums.

You're entitled to your opinion. But obviously when you state the reasons behind your opinion, someone of a different opinion will tell you why they think you're wrong. For example, I counter your statement that Loeb had no competition in 2009-2012 by saying that you're completely ignoring and understimating Hirvonen and later Ogier. Nobody says "Loeb faced the fiercest of competitions ever seen in WRC between 2009 and 2012" but saying that he had no competition and that those were easy titles for him is wrong in my opinion.

[RAS007]

You're entitled to your opinion. But obviously when you state the reasons behind your opinion, someone of a different opinion will tell you why they think you're wrong. For example, I counter your statement that Loeb had no competition in 2009-2012 by saying that you're completely ignoring and understimating Hirvonen and later Ogier. Nobody says "Loeb faced the fiercest of competitions ever seen in WRC between 2009 and 2012" but saying that he had no competition and that those were easy titles for him is wrong in my opinion.

I respect your opinion, and respectfully disagree with you, which is fine, but it's hard to be reasonable with someone who appears unable to make the distinction between opinion and fact.

[focus206]

I respect your opinion, and respectfully disagree with you, which is fine, but it's hard to be reasonable with someone who appears unable to make the distinction between opinion and fact.

Okay, but what is that you disagree with? You don't think that Hirvonen was a driver capable of winning the championship and offering tough opposition?

[RAS007]

Okay, but what is that you disagree with? You don't think that Hirvonen was a driver capable of winning the championship and offering tough opposition?

To answer your question directly: I think Hirvonen was a very capable driver and may have won several championships in a different era; my point is that he was really the only competition Loeb had, after Gronholm retired. In previous years, there were many ex-champions fighting for victory, say in the 90s, where you had Biasion, Auriol, Kankkunen, Sainz, then McRae, Makinen, Burns, Gronholm, plus specialists like Panizzi, Liatti, etc. In those years, you were never really sure who was going to win any given rally. The second half of the Loeb era was a far cry from those days..I am well aware that Loeb beat all of them during the first half of his reign, but after Gronholm went, there wasn't very much......depth to the competition.

[dimviii]

I respect your opinion, and respectfully disagree with you, which is fine, but it's hard to be reasonable with someone who appears unable to make the distinction between opinion and fact.

you respect opinion of focus206 ,but you ''rest your case'' with me.

relaity check focus206 and me saying the same.

[RAS007]

you respect opinion of focus206 ,but you ''rest your case'' with me.

relaity check focus206 and me saying the same.

Perhaps that's because focus206 isn't using phrases like "reality check".

[focus206]

To answer your question directly: I think Hirvonen was a very capable driver and may have won several championships in a different era; my point is that he was really the only competition Loeb had, after Gronholm retired. In previous years, there were many ex-champions fighting for victory, say in the 90s, where you had Biasion, Auriol, Kankkunen, Sainz, then McRae, Makinen, Burns, Gronholm, plus specialists like Panizzi, Liatti, etc. In those years, you were never really sure who was going to win any given rally. The second half of the Loeb era was a far cry from those days..I am well aware that Loeb beat all of them during the first half of his reign, but after Gronholm went, there wasn't very much......depth to the competition.

Okay, at least we passed from "no competition" to "one driver". I agree that 2009 and 2010 were years of little competition, other than Hirvonen there were Solberg with private Citroen, Sordo and Latvala who weren't good enough and Ogier who was still a rookie, so that leaves only Hirvonen as a tough opponent (even if at least Sordo and Latvala can only blame themselves for not being fast enough, they had works cars as well).
But 2011 and 2012 I really cannot see why you say there was little competition. Especially 2011, it was a very competitive year! Every round (except the asphalt ones because the two Seb were too fast) we could have had 4 different winners: Loeb, Ogier, Hirvonen and Latvala. 4 isn't THAT much, but their times were always similar and some rallies were really tight, at the penultimate round we had 3 drivers fighting for the title, because Latvala made too many mistakes in the first rounds. So I really don't understand why 2011 would be a season with no competition, I'd say the opposite.
2012 not as much, but still Loeb had to face Hirvonen, Latvala and Solberg with works cars. Now to me, that is a particular season, because in almost every single round. the works Ford of Latvala and Solberg had problems (mostly because of their drivers' faults). But it feels a bit forced to me saying that in 2012 there was no competition when Loeb had those 3 drivers to face. One could also say Solberg's speed was fading and it's true, but both him and Loeb were born in 1974, so it's only Loeb's merit if he was still fast that year.
So what I would personally say is that Loeb had little competition in 2009 and 2010 (but by little I mean few drivers, because I rate Hirvonen as a driver who would have deserved to be world champion in his career, if he hadn't have to face Loeb and then Ogier)

[RAS007]

Okay guys, one more time.
Loeb has won 78 WRC rally. But it is also something else he has most of, and it's really very illogical. Some other drivers should have the most of this.
Ogier showed the same property in the season 2017. Meek showed the total opposite.
What am I aiming for?
This is what makes him the best of all time. But it seems that Ogier has the same property.

The best car.

[cali]

Comparing numbers ain't discussing.You haven't backed your story by a single bit. I've presented hard cold facts. Only thing you have presented is blabbering with foul language and insults. Tells a lot about your personality.

I'm well aware of rallying history.

Guess the hurt and pain is very real and stronger than I anticipated. Nuff said, I won't be goin down on your road. Reported and added new member in ignore list.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[swanny]

He was crap, especially that year he didn't compete in the last 4 or so events and still won the championship! :p

[Allez Andruet]

You haven't backed your story by a single bit. I've presented hard cold facts. Only thing you have presented is blabbering with foul language and insults. Tells a lot about your personality.

I'm well aware of rallying history.

Guess the hurt and pain is very real and stronger than I anticipated. Nuff said, I won't be goin down on your road. Reported and added new member in ignore list.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

Good riddance!

[Mise]

Kankkunen was utterly crap on tarmac, thus far away in any kind of discussions what concerns Loeb The Great. No other comes close of beating everyone else on his way, mastering all surfaces. Just look at his win ratio. And the competition was there, he just demolished them in a way that everybody thinks the opposition was weak. It wasn't. Without him you would praise Grönholm as the best ever. He demolished him. Period.

My post was an aswer to this:

2) He won 9 titles, and before him the driver who won more title was Makinen who won less then a half and has been a bit lucky for some of them.

Just correcting that Mäkinen and Kankkunen both had 4 titles.

[AL14]

My post was an aswer to this:

2) He won 9 titles, and before him the driver who won more title was Makinen who won less then a half and has been a bit lucky for some of them.

Just correcting that Mäkinen and Kankkunen both had 4 titles.

Yes you were right, my mistake I didn't wrote Kankkunen in that sentence. Thanks for having pointed it out. As you said the argument remain the same but of course kankkunen should have been there.

[racerx1979]

To answer your question. Yes, he was good.

[spyros]

To answer your question. Yes, he was good.

I say very good and a nice guy.

[Mintexmemory]

I say very good and a nice guy.

Not so nice that he would allow other Citroen drivers to compete with the same engine output or without contractual restrictions.

[dimviii]

Not so nice that he would allow other Citroen drivers to compete with the same engine output or without contractual restrictions.

like Ogier?

[focus206]

Not so nice that he would allow other Citroen drivers to compete with the same engine output or without contractual restrictions.

It's nice to make up stories out of nowhere to try to make people look at the past in a different way, isn't it? I wonder if you say this to justify the only time your golden boy Ogier was defeated...

[Coach 2]

Since I can not create any interest in discussion, I get to answer myself.
After winning 78 WRC rally over a relatively short period of time, what is it that possibly is very illogical?
That he, in the same period, is the one with the most 2 places too?
This may be what distinguishes Loeb (and possibly Ogier) from all his competitors. He only tried to win whenever he cold. Would the contest for first place with a high probability bring great opportunities for a run-off and thus 0 points, he did not, like his competitors would, tried until it said bang.

This should, for example, Meek learn from. Try to win with a car that most likely belongs at 3-4-5 place is completely unbelievable, and stubid. Your back feeling will tell you when the limit is reached. Or put it another way, it should.
If not, he will not, can not, take up the battle with Ogier. Not him either.
Ogier really impressed me last season. He could even endure in some rally end up behind one in the same team.

[Mintexmemory]

It's nice to make up stories out of nowhere to try to make people look at the past in a different way, isn't it? I wonder if you say this to justify the only time your golden boy Ogier was defeated...

No made-up story. Sordo and Ogier would have won Spain on separate occasions had orders / engine management not been applied. I can't wait for Petter's biography when he can tell his own story about the Citroen mechanics 'interventions' on his hire car when ever Loeb was out of the running. I am not saying Loeb wasn't a briliant driver but he wasn't the Mr Nice Guy that his PR has led many to believe

[N.O.T]

No made-up story. Sordo and Ogier would have won Spain on separate occasions had orders / engine management not been applied. I can't wait for Petter's biography when he can tell his own story about the Citroen mechanics 'interventions' on his hire car when ever Loeb was out of the running. I am not saying Loeb wasn't a briliant driver but he wasn't the Mr Nice Guy that his PR has led many to believe

location: London... LOL

cool story bro...

[N.O.T]

No made-up story. Sordo and Ogier would have won Spain on separate occasions had orders / engine management not been applied. I can't wait for Petter's biography when he can tell his own story about the Citroen mechanics 'interventions' on his hire car when ever Loeb was out of the running. I am not saying Loeb wasn't a briliant driver but he wasn't the Mr Nice Guy that his PR has led many to believe

you know one gigigalli is enough for this forum...

[dimviii]

No made-up story. Sordo and Ogier would have won Spain on separate occasions had orders / engine management not been applied. I can't wait for Petter's biography when he can tell his own story about the Citroen mechanics 'interventions' on his hire car when ever Loeb was out of the running. I am not saying Loeb wasn't a briliant driver but he wasn't the Mr Nice Guy that his PR has led many to believe

till now the facts are that Ogier wanted Nr 1 status at Ford,and he had superior mechanical parts at his car,thats why Tanak prefered Toyota
also its a fact that Ogier at Citroen didnt want Nr 2 status against a 7 times world champion.Team manager gave him the right to push Loeb, and both lost,the one his job and the other the championship.All these happened while Loeb sweeping all gravel rallies.

Thats the only facts.
your stories about engine management are laughable.

[stefanvv]

Ogier at Citroen didnt want Nr 2 status against a 7 times world champion.Team manager gave him the right to push Loeb, and both lost,the one his job and the other the championship.All these happened while Loeb sweeping all gravel rallies.

That's quite some news, wow, thanks.

[focus206]

No made-up story. Sordo and Ogier would have won Spain on separate occasions had orders / engine management not been applied. I can't wait for Petter's biography when he can tell his own story about the Citroen mechanics 'interventions' on his hire car when ever Loeb was out of the running. I am not saying Loeb wasn't a briliant driver but he wasn't the Mr Nice Guy that his PR has led many to believe

You have no way of knowing. I could say that Ogier won his 4 championships at VW not because he's an omniscient God, as you believe, but because he cheated and VW gave him a car with 100hp more and irregular tyres. But why would I create a story like that? I don't feel the need to bring down drivers I don't particularly like.
Let's be honest, Mintex. I respect every driver and every fan of every driver, but it's hard to consider your posts serious, when 90% of them are hyping up Ogier in such a manner that one would think you're trolling big time. You seem so obsessed to try to prove that Ogier is better than Loeb that I'm sure not even Ogier cares as much as you do.

[dimviii]

That's quite some news, wow, thanks.

these are news only for you.All the others knew them for years.

[stefanvv]

Since I can not create any interest in discussion, I get to answer myself.
After winning 78 WRC rally over a relatively short period of time, what is it that possibly is very illogical?
That he, in the same period, is the one with the most 2 places too?
This may be what distinguishes Loeb (and possibly Ogier) from all his competitors. He only tried to win whenever he cold. Would the contest for first place with a high probability bring great opportunities for a run-off and thus 0 points, he did not, like his competitors would, tried until it said bang.

This should, for example, Meek learn from. Try to win with a car that most likely belongs at 3-4-5 place is completely unbelievable, and stubid. Your back feeling will tell you when the limit is reached. Or put it another way, it should.
If not, he will not, can not, take up the battle with Ogier. Not him either.
Ogier really impressed me last season. He could even endure in some rally end up behind one in the same team.

In general I can agree, until 2016. Then we saw Ogier we never saw before, It's like the same fire doesn't seem to burn in him anymore. Yes, he wants to beat everyone still but not on the every single stage not on the every single rally, especially last year when everything was new to him. The world just keeps going and without those intermediate "titles", he is still the best one at the end. Loeb on the other hand never gave up on those ambitions.

BTW it's "Meeke", not "Meek".

[stefanvv]

these are news only for you.All the others knew them for years.

If You don't like my posts You can easily ignore them. I rarely post lately anyway.

[dimviii]

If You don't like my posts You can easily ignore them. I rarely post lately anyway.

cant ignore a post with irony when you quote me.

[stefanvv]

cant ignore a post with irony when you quote me.

Irony? Why do You think so, I only thanked for the information.

[Joestlaachmkr]

Wow.. Is this thread still alive? I am not saying that Loeb is not a great driver, What i say is that he had an easy ride to his 9 titles in the WRC. And between 2008-2012 he did not have any serious competition and Citroen was far above every other manufacturer. And i am pretty certain that if Loeb had competed fulltime in the WRC between 1993-2001 instead of 2003-12 he would still be WRC champ, But definitely not a 9-time champ.

[focus206]

Wow.. Is this thread still alive? I am not saying that Loeb is not a great driver, What i say is that he had an easy ride to his 9 titles in the WRC. And between 2008-2012 he did not have any serious competition and Citroen was far above every other manufacturer. And i am pretty certain that if Loeb had competed fulltime in the WRC between 1993-2001 instead of 2003-12 he would still be WRC champ, But definitely not a 9-time champ.

Instead of just saying "he didn't have any serious competition", look at my post (#116) and write why you think he had no competition between 2008 and 2012. Oh and for sure in 2008, 2011 and 2012 Citroen cars were definitely not far above Fords.

[denkimi]

No made-up story. Sordo and Ogier would have won Spain on separate occasions had orders / engine management not been applied. I can't wait for Petter's biography when he can tell his own story about the Citroen mechanics 'interventions' on his hire car when ever Loeb was out of the running. I am not saying Loeb wasn't a briliant driver but he wasn't the Mr Nice Guy that his PR has led many to believe
i remember duval saying the same thing.
https://www.rtbf.be/sport/moteurs/detail_citroen-a-rendu-ma-voiture-malade?id=5601953


"En Allemagne je suis en tête. On rentre à l'assistance, je repars et ma voiture ne va plus. Ils avaient mis volontairement ma voiture un peu malade pour que Sébastien gagne. Mais autant dire : laisse le passer, car Sébastien était devant moi au Championnat"

hard to tell what's true and what's not, but usually if there are a few smoke plumes there's a fire somewhere.

[dimviii]

i remember duval saying the same thing.
https://www.rtbf.be/sport/moteurs/detail_citroen-a-rendu-ma-voiture-malade?id=5601953


hard to tell what's true and what's not, but usually if there are a few smoke plumes there's a fire somewhere.
its not hard to tell if its true,if you examine properly every stage,and Duval vs every driver.
time stages dont show a slow car after any service.Except that Duval was only at ss3 in front of Loeb for 3,2 sec.
Impossible to have less power car and at second pass of stages to go faster by 10 seconds,and Gronholm to be 10 sec slower from Duval,while he was also 10 sec faster from his first pass.
Loeb just was faster for 15 sec from first pass,while everybody was from 9-10 sec faster.
Stage is ss3 and ss6.After ss 3 must be a service if i understand well watching the itenary.

https://www.ewrc-results.com/results/43-omv-adac-rallye-deutschland-2005/?s=560

[denkimi]

its not hard to tell if its true,if you examine properly every stage,and Duval vs every driver.
time stages dont show a slow car after any service.Except that Duval was only at ss3 in front of Loeb for 3,2 sec.
Impossible to have less power car and at second pass of stages to go faster by 10 seconds,and Gronholm to be 10 sec slower from Duval,while he was also 10 sec faster from his first pass.
Loeb just was faster for 15 sec from first pass,while everybody was from 9-10 sec faster.
Stage is ss3 and ss6.After ss 3 must be a service if i understand well watching the itenary.

https://www.ewrc-results.com/results/43-omv-adac-rallye-deutschland-2005/?s=560
i kinda wonder if they got the years mixed up. what duval said seems to be more like what happened in 2007.
fastest on day 1, losing lots of time on each stage on day 2, and then fastest on day 3 again when loeb was nearly a minute ahead.

[dimviii]

i kinda wonder if they got the years mixed up. what duval said seems to be more like what happened in 2007.
fastest on day 1, losing lots of time on each stage on day 2, and then fastest on day 3 again when loeb was nearly a minute ahead.
no its not like this.

at day 1 he is 1,3sec faster from Loeb
at day 2 at ss 7 was out of road 2 times losing 16,5 sec to Loeb
at ss 8 loosing 10,3 to stage winner Loeb at 19 km stage
at ss 9 loosing 6,2 to Loeb at 16,51 km stage
at ss 10 losing 10,1 sec his comment was ''it wasnt bad'' at 30,55 km stage
at ss 11 faster from Loeb for 0,3 at 16,37 km stage
at ss 12 losing 2,7 to Loeb at 19km stage
at ss 13 loosing 5,9 to Loeb at 16,5 km stage
at ss 14 losing 0,3 to Loeb ay 30 km stage

at last stage his comments were "I've been pushing a lot tonight, I'm happy, it's amazing after 8 months."

i dont see any lost of power at his car.
at long 30km stage he was equal
at one stage was faster
at all the rest he was loosing from less than 0,1 sec per km and at some stages he was loosing more like 0,55 sec /km
he was loosing more at first pass of stages.He was loosing a lot less time at second pass.
he wasnt constant,that was his problem,except the 2 offs at one stage where he lost 16 sec.

[N.O.T]

i think the fact that people who do not credit Loeb for his achievements resort to conspiracy theories and bullshit talk about internal sabotage instead of facts shows how great Loeb was...

the fact that a has been brings so much pain and agony to little pig kids shows his greatness... nobody bothers with the titles of the others because compared to Loeb they are garbage dogs.

[denkimi]

no its not like this.

at day 1 he is 1,3sec faster from Loeb
at day 2 at ss 7 was out of road 2 times losing 16,5 sec to Loeb
at ss 8 loosing 10,3 to stage winner Loeb at 19 km stage
at ss 9 loosing 6,2 to Loeb at 16,51 km stage
at ss 10 losing 10,1 sec his comment was ''it wasnt bad'' at 30,55 km stage
at ss 11 faster from Loeb for 0,3 at 16,37 km stage
at ss 12 losing 2,7 to Loeb at 19km stage
at ss 13 loosing 5,9 to Loeb at 16,5 km stage
at ss 14 losing 0,3 to Loeb ay 30 km stage

at last stage his comments were "I've been pushing a lot tonight, I'm happy, it's amazing after 8 months."

i dont see any lost of power at his car.
at long 30km stage he was equal
at one stage was faster
at all the rest he was loosing from less than 0,1 sec per km and at some stages he was loosing more like 0,55 sec /km
he was loosing more at first pass of stages.He was loosing a lot less time at second pass.
he wasnt constant,that was his problem,except the 2 offs at one stage where he lost 16 sec.
So as i said. Fastest on day 1, pushing on day 2 but still losing massive time, even to hirvonen, and fastest again on day 3 when loeb was far ahead and it was in the interest of citroen that he would catch gronholm.

[Lousada]

So as i said. Fastest on day 1, pushing on day 2 but still losing massive time, even to hirvonen, and fastest again on day 3 when loeb was far ahead and it was in the interest of citroen that he would catch gronholm.

Or maybe the wine-country specials that were contested on day 1 and 3 were better suited to the smaller and nimbler Xsara, while the bulky C4 was better suited to the panzerplatte stages on day 2.

[denkimi]

Or maybe the wine-country specials that were contested on day 1 and 3 were better suited to the smaller and nimbler Xsara, while the bulky C4 was better suited to the panzerplatte stages on day 2.
The thing is that on day 2, he not only lost time to loeb in the c4, but also to gronholm and hirvonen in the ford, and to atkinson in the subaru.

[tbtstt]

My short answer to the original question "How good was Sebastien Loeb?" would be "very" (and I would also correct the original question by saying that he still is good rather than was good!).

I personally think that direct comparisons are very difficult, if not impossible. Drivers who were very successful in one era would not have fared as well in others as the design of the cars - and the optimum driving style for getting the best out of them - evolved: you don't have to look too hard to find plenty of examples of drivers that fall into that category.

I do think that Loeb would be held in higher esteem if there had been more competition (i.e. more manufacturers) in his prime seasons, but for me he was an incredible driver, in the right team in the perfect era for his driving style. Of course a change in team would have allowed him to demonstrate versatility (which I think is the mark of a true great), but the options weren't really there at the time. I also agree with previous comments that it's a real shame we never got see a full season of Loeb/Citroen versus Ogier/VW.

Perhaps slightly off topic, but I feel that the achievements of Ogier with VW are viewed in a similar fashion to Loeb as he (Ogier) looked to be in a different league at times. Not to undermine his previous results, but I think Ogier taking the Championship last year was his finest career moment to date: proof that he could take a Championship when he wasn't in a car that was clearly better!

[GravelBen]

My short answer to the original question "How good was Sebastien Loeb?" would be "very" (and I would also correct the original question by saying that he still is good rather than was good!).

I personally think that direct comparisons are very difficult, if not impossible. Drivers who were very successful in one era would not have fared as well in others as the design of the cars - and the optimum driving style for getting the best out of them - evolved: you don't have to look too hard to find plenty of examples of drivers that fall into that category.

I do think that Loeb would be held in higher esteem if there had been more competition (i.e. more manufacturers) in his prime seasons, but for me he was an incredible driver, in the right team in the perfect era for his driving style. Of course a change in team would have allowed him to demonstrate versatility (which I think is the mark of a true great), but the options weren't really there at the time. I also agree with previous comments that it's a real shame we never got see a full season of Loeb/Citroen versus Ogier/VW.


Yeah I agree, thats a good summary.

To expand on your second point, part of the reason Kankkunen is rated so highly by many is because he was successful across such a wide range of car formats - 2wd Group 4, 2wd Group B, 4wd Group B, Group A, and WRC. Only driver to win championships with 3 different manufacturers, his first WRC rally wins were in 1985 and his last were in 1999 - 14 years later! Coming out of retirement to finish 8th at Rally Finland 2010 at the age of 51 was pretty respectable too.

I guess you're right that Loeb could have changed manufacturer if he really wanted to prove a point, but even if he had done that the WRC car format stayed pretty similar right through his career (changes in engine size/power and active vs passive diffs but they've all been 4wd cars of similar architecture) so he never had the chance to show the same adaptability. And vice versa we will never know what results Kankkunen might have had if he had spent his whole career in the same team like Loeb did, often with the biggest budget and probably best car that was so well suited to him.

So I'll just say I think they're both among the best ever and leave it at that. :)

[Marcco]

What I really like about Loeb, is that he really didn't try to beat any records and as he said in multiple interviews asked about his speed "I don't know, I'm not special, maybe just couple tenths quicker" :)

[dimviii]

So as i said. Fastest on day 1, pushing on day 2 but still losing massive time, even to hirvonen, and fastest again on day 3 when loeb was far ahead and it was in the interest of citroen that he would catch gronholm.

didnt tyou read the analysis stage by stage?
how his car was slow at day 2 when at one stage he had 2 offs,in another stage he was faster from all,and in the bigger one was with same time as Loeb?
No he hadnt a slow car.

[AL14]

I feel you guys. It must be really difficult to find reasons to downrate Loeb dominion. But you still try your best to do that.

[Watson]

I feel you guys. It must be really difficult to find reasons to downrate Loeb dominion. But you still try your best to do that.

Right? It's funny how one gets called a Loeb fanboy for saying 'You know what? I reckon he was actually pretty goddamn good.'

I'm a Ford fan and I remember him very distinctly to be way better than I liked :D

[dimviii]

Right? It's funny how one gets called a Loeb fanboy for saying 'You know what?

its not about fanboism,its about reality and facts.

[denkimi]

didnt tyou read the analysis stage by stage?
how his car was slow at day 2 when at one stage he had 2 offs,in another stage he was faster from all,and in the bigger one was with same time as Loeb?
No he hadnt a slow car.
i don't know what you are trying to say. your stage analysis proves exactly what i'm saying.

on day 1 he was 17 seconds faster than everyone besides loeb, on day 3 he was 37 seconds faster than everyone besides loeb.
and on day 2? 5th fastest, losing 30 seconds to everyone besides loeb. even without his offs, he still lost 14 seconds to gronholm.

his times on day 2 were clearly slower than those on day 1 and 3. coincidentally he was slower when he was a threat to loeb, and faster when loeb was uncatchable and he was a threat to loebs challenger gronholm.

i could very well be coincidence, but as mintexmemory said, similar story's are being told about sordo, ogier and solberg.

[Watson]

For everybody who says Loeb didn't have strong competition consider this: Nadal, Murray and Djokovic are all great, great Tennis players but they are unfortunate enough to be active during the same period that a certain Federer is around.

[dimviii]

i don't know what you are trying to say. your stage analysis proves exactly what i'm saying.

on day 1 he was 17 seconds faster than everyone besides loeb, on day 3 he was 37 seconds faster than everyone besides loeb.
and on day 2? 5th fastest, losing 30 seconds to everyone besides loeb. even without his offs, he still lost 14 seconds to gronholm.

his times on day 2 were clearly slower than those on day 1 and 3. coincidentally he was slower when he was a threat to loeb, and faster when loeb was uncatchable and he was a threat to loebs challenger gronholm.

i could very well be coincidence, but as mintexmemory said, similar story's are being told about sordo, ogier and solberg.
i am not trying to say something,i give you facts that you cant explain about the detuned engine.
You didnt gine me any explanations about fastest times and equal times with Loeb at stages at day 2.
no your analysis isnt right.How a slow car with detuned ecu has same stage time at 30 km stage at 2nd day?
how a detuned car has faster stage time at 2nd day?
plenty of drivers are slower/faster from their team mates at EVERY rally at different days,for years. It happens at EVERY rally.
That doesnt mean that they have a detuned engine.

[GravelBen]

What I really like about Loeb, is that he really didn't try to beat any records and as he said in multiple interviews asked about his speed "I don't know, I'm not special, maybe just couple tenths quicker" :)

He has always seemed like a genuine rally enthusiast too - I remember times when he had retired from rallies (I know not many!) and would be seen out spectating for the rest of the rally, while some other drivers would just pack up and go home.

[AL14]

i don't know what you are trying to say. your stage analysis proves exactly what i'm saying.

on day 1 he was 17 seconds faster than everyone besides loeb, on day 3 he was 37 seconds faster than everyone besides loeb.
and on day 2? 5th fastest, losing 30 seconds to everyone besides loeb. even without his offs, he still lost 14 seconds to gronholm.

his times on day 2 were clearly slower than those on day 1 and 3. coincidentally he was slower when he was a threat to loeb, and faster when loeb was uncatchable and he was a threat to loebs challenger gronholm.

i could very well be coincidence, but as mintexmemory said, similar story's are being told about sordo, ogier and solberg.

Man, you're really thinking that a legend who won 9 championships straight needed help to beat Duval? Are you really serious about this?

[N.O.T]

Are you really serious about this?

I think he is which is funny and sad at the same time....

[focus206]

Man, you're really thinking that a legend who won 9 championships straight needed help to beat Duval? Are you really serious about this?

Not "just" Duval... but Duval who was without a drive for 8 months... while driving an old Xsara vs the C4 of Loeb. I mean, he did a pretty great rally, but let's remember he managed to win only 1 WRC event in his career (Australia, because every fast driver retired) after years in works teams, because of his many mistakes.

[René]

Revisionism is trending right now ! What is this strange disease that grips you, which consists in wanting to constantly rewrite history every time it doesn't suit you?

[A FONDO]

Man, you're really thinking that a legend who won 9 championships straight needed help to beat Duval? Are you really serious about this?

I do.

[Watson]

I do.

Dude, Duval got beaten by Märtin almost every round as well and Ford surely didn't have the luxury to sabotage their second driver at the time.

[AL14]

I do.

I had no doubt.

[spiderem]

pardon me if it has been said here already, but i foresee that the 3 outings Loeb will do this season will provide answers to the question... positive or negative.

[focus206]

pardon me if it has been said here already, but i foresee that the 3 outings Loeb will do this season will provide answers to the question... positive or negative.

I don't think so... maybe it's just me, but I don't have high expectations on Loeb for these 3 rallies. He has retired in 2012, I see him struggle to get a podium in these events, let alone a win. It doesn't make much sense to rate a driver based on few events he'll compete 6 years after he retired.

[dimviii]

pardon me if it has been said here already, but i foresee that the 3 outings Loeb will do this season will provide answers to the question... positive or negative.

what answers will provide?

[denkimi]

Man, you're really thinking that a legend who won 9 championships straight needed help to beat Duval? Are you really serious about this?
can you believe someone who won 7 tours de france needed doping to help him beat basso or klöden?

when duval said he wasn't treaded fair, i didn't believe it because he seemed like a bad loser. when the same story's where told about sordo, i didn't believe them because he seemed just to slow. when petter said kinda the same thing, i also didn't believe it.

but since i've seen how ogier got treated when he was a threat to loeb, i believe it all to be true.
for me, loeb is the best rally driver ever. but as Mintexmemory said, he isn't the nice guy some believe him to be.
he didn't wanted to win fair, he just wanted to win. and he had no problem with sabotaging his team members if they didn't wanted to listen to team orders an let him take the win.

[dimviii]

but since i've seen how ogier got treated when he was a threat to loeb, i believe it all to be true. .

how was treated?

[focus206]

can you believe someone who won 7 tours de france needed doping to help him beat basso or klöden?

when duval said he wasn't treaded fair, i didn't believe it because he seemed like a bad loser. when the same story's where told about sordo, i didn't believe them because he seemed just to slow. when petter said kinda the same thing, i also didn't believe it.

but since i've seen how ogier got treated when he was a threat to loeb, i believe it all to be true.
for me, loeb is the best rally driver ever. but as Mintexmemory said, he isn't the nice guy some believe him to be.
he didn't wanted to win fair, he just wanted to win. and he had no problem with sabotaging his team members if they didn't wanted to listen to team orders an let him take the win.

Yet, I've never heard Loeb complain particularly when he had to retire or was beaten by his rivals, he never sounded like someone who wants to win no matter what. Also, judging that he's not a "nice guy" not by what he says, but by some rumors that Citroen would have handicapped other Citroen drivers to give Loeb single rally wins is laughable.
Do you really believe that Loeb would have asked Citroen to mess around with the cars of Sordo, Duval and Solberg, who where absolutely nowhere near him in the championship classification and in pace in 90% of the rounds, just to win a single event for each case? I'm sorry, but this sounds absolutely ridicolous...

[spiderem]

what answers will provide?

Well let say he gets a podium on his first event (Mexico?), then one could easily say that it is an amizing performance considering it's his first outing in the new generation car and he hasn't been competing in rally for few seasons. Hence yes sebastien Loeb was and is really good.
Let say he finishes 8th or 9th, then one could say, yes Loeb was the best driver of his era for sure, but every era has its own best driver...

[Watson]

pardon me if it has been said here already, but i foresee that the 3 outings Loeb will do this season will provide answers to the question... positive or negative.

I don't think so. I think he will struggle and that will simply be explained by being absent for too long, not having the experience in the car that most of the other drivers have, lack of incentive and a general motivation not to put the car into a ditch.

He's pretty much a tourist driver like Kremer, Serderidis, the Sheikh and Bertelli.

[Zico]

I don't think so. I think he will struggle and that will simply be explained by being absent for too long, not having the experience in the car that most of the other drivers have, lack of incentive and a general motivation not to put the car into a ditch.

He's pretty much a tourist driver like Kremer, Serderidis, the Sheikh and Bertelli.


Yes, I think so too.

If Meeke is to be believed, the Citroen is also lagging behind in development compared to Toyota, Ford and Hyundai. Some might say Kris is just blaming the car for his mediocre Monte performance... but even just looking at the car, Aero development at very least, still looks waaay behind on the C3 compared to the others, especially Toyota.

I don't expect Seb to be very competitive, but that in no way detracts from how good he clearly was/is.

[Marcco]

pardon me if it has been said here already, but i foresee that the 3 outings Loeb will do this season will provide answers to the question... positive or negative.

Pardon me but, if he fails to deliver good result, you can't blame him, he is out of WRC for 6 years now, the cars has changed, he got older etc etc etc. but if he delivers... well he is a legend (but we already know this) :) So all in all couple outings after 6 years of absence in WRC means nothing, just nothing :)

[ESTR]

My crystal ball says that he will get lucky and most of guys will retire or make some minor mistakes. He will be there slowly behid and climbing to the top.

[er88]

My crystal ball says that he will get lucky and most of guys will retire or make some minor mistakes. He will be there slowly behid and climbing to the top.He's certainly chosen the 3 events wisely, where the car generally worked well last year and the team will have good data/setups.

Would be great to see him challenge at the top but the fact he's even back for these events is the main thing. Will be a great extra buzz for the WRC.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[Zeakiwi]

The question might be 'How good is Loeb at 43 years of age in a wrc citroen rally car'?
I'm more concerned for Elena after his dakar problems.

[racerx1979]

If Loeb nails a few good stages and is within the top 3 as far as times are concerned I will say he still has it.

[AnttiL]

The question might be 'How good is Loeb at 43 years of age in a wrc citroen rally car'?

He just turned 44.

[Zico]

After 5 stages he is sitting a solid 3rd overall, I was not expecting that, maybe the upper half of the top ten at best. To even be even competitive after so long out speaks volumes and shows just how good Loeb was... and still is. Incredible!

[KiwiWRCfan]

Can an administrator please change word "was" to "is" in the thread title.
I did not expect to see a stage win, I did not expect to see a top 5 overall result,.
Can anyone give me directions to an edible hat shop. I need to prepare a meal for myself.

[pino]

Topic title changed :)

[AL14]

Can an administrator please change word "was" to "is" in the thread title.
I did not expect to see a stage win, I did not expect to see a top 5 overall result,.
Can anyone give me directions to an edible hat shop. I need to prepare a meal for myself.

I think we should also remove that question mark

[AnttiL]

If Loeb nails a few good stages and is within the top 3 as far as times are concerned I will say he still has it.

Yup.

[dimviii]

any news from this interview ?
https://youtu.be/fwlUDWy5bQY

[A FONDO]

Slower than Sordo on gravel (Sordo on gravel!) despite perfect road position http://yoursmiles.org/ssmile/fun/s0205.gif

[Rallyper]

I don't think so. I think he will struggle and that will simply be explained by being absent for too long, not having the experience in the car that most of the other drivers have, lack of incentive and a general motivation not to put the car into a ditch.

He's pretty much a tourist driver like Kremer, Serderidis, the Sheikh and Bertelli.

Oohh. So you say that. But it was before the magic day... :)

Tourist? No matter how it ends: Naahhh. ;) ;)

[dimviii]

Michel V.
Also 72 rallies in a row he won at least one stage : from Germany '04 until Sardegna '09. (I excluded the 4 rallies in '06 he missed through injury)

[Jarek Z]

I think he will struggle and that will simply be explained by being absent for too long, not having the experience in the car that most of the other drivers have, lack of incentive and a general motivation not to put the car into a ditch.

He's pretty much a tourist driver like Kremer, Serderidis, the Sheikh and Bertelli.

A tourist?! What will you say about the regular WRC drivers, who couldn't keep up Loeb's pace then? ;)

[Jarek Z]

A typical tourist ;)

https://scontent-frx5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28472127_1786563871364540_5529441065837153398_n.jp g?oh=1e7b6ba829fc8c9b83221b2e15f72e8c&oe=5B0446C6

[Coach 2]

A tourist?! What will you say about the regular WRC drivers, who couldn't keep up Loeb's pace then? ;)

I can ask you FIRST, don't you think the discussion will END up with something to do with their NOSE.

[sindroms]

How good is he? Excellent rally driver bad bike rider :D
(Old joke of course related to 2006)

[dimviii]

another record we havent mention

From July 2005 (Argentina) to April 2012 (Argentina) Seb Loeb and Daniel Elena were unbeaten on Latin American soil. They won all 13 WRC rounds held in Central and South America over this 6 years and 9 month period.
https://rallysportmag.com/6-and-13-rally-mexicos-incredible-wrc-stats130318/

[danon]

We just know who is The Maestro. His wife knows how good is he.

https://media.giphy.com/media/fCUTGg5RjkjC1VVdSs/giphy.gif

[Rallyper]

Well, no tourist he is ...

[Mintexmemory]

Well, no tourist he is ...

Still got the natural talent but the reflexes and concentration appear to have faded - one more event to come and I stick to my prediction of no podium from the project. It would have been great to see a full season battle in 2014 but it seems that while SL is capable of better pace over any given stage than most of the current drivers it is no longer within a comfort zone of driving.

[EstWRC]

i think we can close this thread now? no?

[Rallyper]

Yep. Close thread. We now know his status and I disagree with Mintexmemory. If rejecting a guy who is among the three fastest drivers in Corsica, just tells me the evaluation is wrong.

[dimviii]

Yep. Close thread. We now know his status and I disagree with Mintexmemory. If rejecting a guy who is among the three fastest drivers in Corsica, just tells me the evaluation is wrong.

dont bother with Loeb haters.

[BigWorm]

Nailed on to win in Spain and will probably do so, bowing out of the season in great fashion.

[danon]

i think we can close this thread now? no?

Not yet!

[janvanvurpa]

Still got the natural talent but the reflexes and concentration appear to have faded - one more event to come and I stick to my prediction of no podium from the project. It would have been great to see a full season battle in 2014 but it seems that while SL is capable of better pace over any given stage than most of the current drivers it is no longer within a comfort zone of driving.


Well if you sussed that his "reflexes and concentration" have "faded" from you couch...what explains it when younger guys--with those lightning reflexes amateurs love to pontificate about----when they screw up and end up in a ditch?

As always, some review of the competition you did to arrive at your opinions would help us weigh your pronunciamentos

[dimviii]

interesting interview with Elena
here are some parts.They are from google translate.

In the group of Saturday night, Tänak comes to you saying: "It's been 5 years that we train, it's been 5 years since you're gone and you are ahead of us, what the ..." This inspires you a special feeling ? That he was beaten by a small fat (Editor's note: laughs). Things have changed since we left. We talked about it on the road with Seb. In fact, they play it almost all star system. They ride mechanics every time they come out of the car, the perfect hairstyle, the glasses on the nose, and so on. Just before the Power Stage, we watched them, all were watching the first pass video to check what they could have possibly avoided or improved. We do not care. I was the only one who did not have the notebook. Okay, maybe if we play the championship, we will review the special with Seb on the road. But not watch the video. The old man has an excellent visual memory. But what have they become psychopaths ... I also find that the atmosphere is tense between them. It was different before.
Disappointed? No, but I have the impression that they all think of F1 drivers, which does not detract from their talent, but they are their star. Personally, I have never been. I just had the chance to live my passion. I take pleasure when I roll, without confusing my brain. They give the impression of the opposite. Sure, I would not like to see them every day. We have only one life: profi tons!
Are you proud of your "perf" of the weekend? No, we have become too professional: we stopped to change a wheel when we would never have done it before. I'm a wanker, for once I wanted to work, do well and we did a very bad job. So no, I'm not proud to finish 5th because we were shot on a wheel change. We were physically bad because we were totally disorganized and had not been trained to do it.
It will be done for the Tour de Corse ... No, otherwise it will bring us bad luck. By cons, with the team, we will address two or three essential points. Same with Seb in the organization of the car. When we both arrived in the wheel-change box, he took some equipment that I normally have to load and vice versa. It quickly stuck.

http://www.mathieuanneproduction.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/022-025_ITV-Elena_v1.pdf

[mknight]

Just before the Power Stage, we watched them, all were watching the first pass video to check what they could have possibly avoided or improved. We do not care. I was the only one who did not have the notebook.

I pointed this out numerous times, that current drivers watch vids of the stages so much they end up remembering almost every corner.

Loeb said also when he raced full time that he is very good at memorizing stages.

Anyway in Mexico as Elena claims they were the only ones who didn't watch the first pass before second and ended 6th (without Ogier penalty) with quite large gap to 5th. In Corsica the PS was ran just once and Loeb +Elena ended 2nd. Could off course be coincidence/road position/form.

-------------------------------------

On related note I was ridiculed by you multiple times for pointing out just how much memorizing and vid-watching there is. Starting in Monte 2017 when Ogier claimed he knew the corner where he went off had open field on the outside. "Impossible", "Ogier lies", "So many corners on a rally nobody can remember them". Oh well

[Jarek Z]

I pointed this out numerous times, that current drivers watch vids of the stages so much they end up remembering almost every corner.

Loeb said also when he raced full time that he is very good at memorizing stages.

That's true. If you read Loeb's book, there is certain chapter in it, where Loeb describes this phenomenon. It's quite funny, behause Loeb says he thought all the drivers had the same ability. But one day he was talking to his team mate (I think it was Sordo, but I'm not sure) about some dangerous spots on the next stage and suddenly he realized that other drivers had no idea what spot he was talking about, because they couldn't memorize the stage as good as he did :)

Bu the way, it's a great book. I bought it without big expectations and was surprised at how interesting it was. The Polish edition that I read is called "Moj styl jazdy" ("My driving style") and it looks like this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sebastien-Loeb-Moj-styl-jazdy/dp/8379240057/ref=sr_1_8/262-5467894-9010967?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1523907406&sr=1-8&refinements=p_27%3AS%C3%A9bastien+Loeb

[KiwiWRCfan]

listen carefully at the end
"I Loeb you"
"I Loeb you to"
It's a really strong marriage of long time rally fans.
https://youtu.be/4oqfyyEiSHA

[cali]

That's true. If you read Loeb's book, there is certain chapter in it, where Loeb describes this phenomenon. It's quite funny, behause Loeb says he thought all the drivers had the same ability. But one day he was talking to his team mate (I think it was Sordo, but I'm not sure) about some dangerous spots on the next stage and suddenly he realized that other drivers had no idea what spot he was talking about, because they couldn't memorize the stage as good as he did :)

Bu the way, it's a great book. I bought it without big expectations and was surprised at how interesting it was. The Polish edition that I read is called "Moj styl jazdy" ("My driving style") and it looks like this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sebastien-Loeb-Moj-styl-jazdy/dp/8379240057/ref=sr_1_8/262-5467894-9010967?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1523907406&sr=1-8&refinements=p_27%3AS%C3%A9bastien+LoebNeed that book in English

[racerx1979]

listen carefully at the end
"I Loeb you"
"I Loeb you to"
It's a really strong marriage of long time rally fans.
https://youtu.be/4oqfyyEiSHA

I just lost 40 secs of time I will never get back.

[Watson]

A tourist?! What will you say about the regular WRC drivers, who couldn't keep up Loeb's pace then? ;)

Jeez I've been away for too long. What I meant by that was that having high expectations wasn't justified. However, if and indeed he was able to keep up with the big names of today it would show how great he is. I don't think many other drivers would have been able to come back after such a long time with such changed cars and be competitive. I'm not a hater. Eventhough I don't root for him or his team I absolutely conceed that he is one of the alltime greats.

Me calling him a tourist driver wasn't trying to insult him but a means of saying even if he wouldn't perform, it wouldn't take away from his status of a worldclass driver.

[Jarek Z]

Me calling him a tourist driver wasn't trying to insult him but a means of saying even if he wouldn't perform, it wouldn't take away from his status of a worldclass driver.

OK, I get it. I just didn't know that calling a rally driver a tourist can be a positive comment :)

[Jarek Z]

Need that book in English

I have just found out that the original French title is most probably "Ma ligne de conduite":
http://www.sebastienloeb.com/ma-ligne-de-conduite-lautobiographie-actualisee-de-sebastien-loeb/
but I can't find any English edition of this book. Sorry :(

[spiderem]

actually where Loeb has demonstrated he is an amazing driver is in my opinion:
- pikes peak
- xgames
there was a lot of pressure on those 1 day events, and he delivered. as simple as that.

[dupanton]

actually where Loeb has demonstrated he is an amazing driver is in my opinion:
- pikes peak
- xgames
there was a lot of pressure on those 1 day events, and he delivered. as simple as that.

You are trolling right?

[Kaps]

eh, this thread just won't go away...

[N.O.T]

actually where Loeb has demonstrated he is an amazing driver is in my opinion:
- pikes peak
- xgames
there was a lot of pressure on those 1 day events, and he delivered. as simple as that.

canadians...

years of existence, not a single use for them to this day....

[Mirek]

eh, this thread just won't go away...

Sebastien the first is eternal so is this thread :smokin:

[Kaps]

I agree he is, that's exactly the reason this thread is superfluous.

[spiderem]

canadians...

years of existence, not a single use for them to this day....

Always great input NOT. never go past beyond minimum brain use, keep it up!

[Mirek]

Always great input NOT. never go past beyond minimum brain use, keep it up!

Well, putting a performance in X-Games as a proof of anything isn't much better.

[spiderem]

Well, putting a performance in X-Games as a proof of anything isn't much better.

it was an opinion, not a proof.

[spiderem]

Anyway time to go back and be a Canadian (as some forum member assume location = nationality). I will eat pancakes with maple syrup and watch hockey games whilst petting a bear.

[dupanton]

it was an opinion, not a proof.

Pikes Peake is a race with no rules at all. His car was very probably a lot faster then anything else on that mountain. If they would have put Matton in the car they would have won too...
And X-Games... it's a game. Nothing more then a show.

[N.O.T]

Anyway time to go back and be a Canadian (as some forum member assume location = nationality). I will eat pancakes with maple syrup and watch hockey games whilst petting a bear.

Canandians are not men enough to pet bears... Russians do that.

[spiderem]

Pikes Peake is a race with no rules at all. His car was very probably a lot faster then anything else on that mountain. If they would have put Matton in the car they would have won too...
And X-Games... it's a game. Nothing more then a show.

As much as I agree with you that his car was a lot faster than the rest, it still takes a special kind of driver to remember 12.42 miles (19.99 km) over 156 turns (thanks Wikipedia), and deliver the most out of the car without crashing. If you look at previous winners at pikes peak (Millen, Dumas, Tajima), you will see that most people have been trying years after years before finally reaching top spot. Not entirely sure Matton would have won.

[spiderem]

Canandians are not men enough to pet bears... Russians do that.

Canandians from the Canandie Island? New country?

[N.O.T]

Canandians from the Canandie Island? New country?

no, but i do not bother with the spelling of irrelevant countries...

you will not win this kid... many tried... everyone fell.... i am just on a league of my own.

[spiderem]

no, but i do not bother with the spelling of irrelevant countries...

you will not win this kid... many tried... everyone fell.... i am just on a league of my own.

Oh NOT... without you this Forum would be very dull indeed.

[N.O.T]

I know... its hard work though and no proper replacement in the horizon either... i am not going to live forever you know.

[spiderem]

I know... its hard work though and no proper replacement in the horizon either... i am not going to live forever you know.

Good riddance.

[N.O.T]

Good riddance.

lol... i really hurt you didn;t I ? sorry was not intentional...

still funny though.

[spiderem]

lol... i really hurt you didn;t I ? sorry was not intentional...

still funny though.

if it gives you an hard on, be my guest :)

[N.O.T]

if it gives you an hard on, be my guest :)

Thats why nobody likes canadians... you are weird. in a bad way.

[spiderem]

Thats why nobody likes canadians... you are weird. in a bad way.

who said i was canadian?

[N.O.T]

who said i was canadian?

the fun is over with you...

back on topic.

[stefanvv]

who said i was canadian?

Tell him You're an alien.

[spiderem]

Tell him You're an alien.

I wanted to say Greek, so it would explain my attraction for men, but not sure he can take it.

[spiderem]

the fun is over with you...

back on topic.

yeah same here, you provided great entertainment to make my day go quicker. Now back to petting my bear, as my location says Canada, i am automatically a Canadian, and do Canadian stuff.

[Mirek]

Can some moderator please delete all that bullshit from the last page or so?

[EstWRC]

last page? the whole thread please

[Essaj]

Can't we all just agree that Loeb is pretty fking good and forget this thread :)

[dimviii]

Rarely a nine-time world champion will be so much in the shadows. Daniel Elena, co-driver of Sébastien Loeb for twenty years, built alongside the Alsatian pilot an XXL record. The Monegasque has magnified this role unrecognized and yet decisive rally. But the story of "Danos" is first of all that of a total symbiosis with the one of which he is so close, in the car as well as outside.
It's Tuesday, it's Great Stories. Our series invites you to immerse yourself in the crazy history of sport, between pages of legends, buried memories and unknown stories. Always at the height of men. After the improbable heroes, miraculas and curses, new theme in September-October devoted to the best supporting roles of the sport. It's already time for the sixth and final round, which honors the co-driver the most successful of all time ...

Daniel Elena grew up in Sainte-Dévote. Evocative name if any. Sainte-Dévote, it is a district of Monaco (the ravine of Sainte-Dévote, to be precise), but also of the very first corner, on the right, of the Monegasque circuit. Elena's dual duality lives here, in this district of the most famous Principality of the planet, where the millionaires abound and where the most famous pilots of the world tumble, once a year, in the spring. The young Daniel pushed among the first and dreamed of belonging one day to the brotherhood of the latter. But he was not a millionaire and did not become a pilot. Next, always. That will be his story.

His father was not a prince, nor even a banker or real estate mogul. He was a croupier in one of the casinos in the city. Her mother was a housekeeper at home. A modest environment as there are so many, with the peculiarity of the opulent Monegasque context. In his autobiography, My Policy, Sébastien Loeb says of him: "Since I know him, I have understood that misery is no less painful in the sun.People also live in the Principality."

But Monaco is also the Formula 1 Grand Prix in May and the Monte Carlo Rally in January. Two monuments of motorsport that will quickly fascinate the teenager Elena in the 80s. "It helps to have the passion of the sport self," he smiles.

"When I was a kid," he told us, "I see myself listening to the Turini stages with my transistor, and my radio, I'm not 70, either!" Everything started there for him. In the shadow of palaces and cars, he has fed a dream, integrate the world of motorsport, and an ambition: that of a form of success and ease that invaded his daily life without crossing the threshold of his home .

Auto sport at all costs
Daniel Elena quickly leaves school aside. He only thinks of cars. Of his passion, he wants to do his job. Not easy in a closed environment, where the sesame is often, more than the talent, the book of check. But he is ready for anything. "When I was at school one day, at the age of 14, I think, I told my parents that I would live in motorsport, I did not know if it would be a pilot, a co-pilot or even mechanic, I did not care, I just wanted to be part of this world. " Already, at the time, the rally attracts more than F1. "The circuit has a monotonous side," he says, "we go around in circles, we always see them pass at the same place at the same speed, while rally is more spectacular." Then my brother was rallying ... "

Like everyone else, he first considers himself a pilot, before quickly understanding that it would not be for him. "I have not had any training," continues Elena, "I have not had the chance to have parents who love motorsports, I have never done karting, etc." Lucid, he also says, "I made a co-pilot because I was a bad pilot." But he assures that he has never harbored the slightest regret. "I have never mourned my career as a driver because I never really wanted to be, basically, I'm just as happy as a co-driver. financial means and then I had the chance to meet Sebastien. "

Here we are. Sébastien Loeb, the meeting that will change his life and allow him to reach summits that alone he would never have achieved. Their union is a happy combination of circumstances. In the right timing. At the end of 1997, in "promotion formula", Daniel Elena finds himself without a pilot. Hervé Bernard, with whom he has teamed up, has decided not to return. Loeb also lost his half after the abrupt withdrawal of his co-driver, Christophe Schneider. Elena is 25 years old. Loeb 23. "We were opponents in the race but we had sympathized all year during the reconnaissance, recalls the Monegasque.The current was passed right away, that's how we decided to leave together."

[dimviii]

The cat Loeb on the head
It's a love at first sight, human and professional, that will make this couple one of the greatest success story in the history of motorsport. "But before being a nine-time world champion, Elena reminds us, we've had galleys, we've spent stages together." From the Kit Car Trophy to the French Championship, the duo makes its ranges. Their first three common years, far from their future glory, are placed under the sign of the trouble. At the time, every penny counts. To limit the expenses due to round trips between Monaco and Oberhoffen-sur-Moder, Daniel Elena settled for six months in Alsace in 1999. He sleeps on the couch, with the Loeb cat on his head. It is during this period that he makes the other meeting of his life, that of his future wife, Céline. They will get married in 2001. Sebastien, of course, will be Daniel's witness.

On the car and off, Loeb and Elena seem to complement each other to perfection. The southern bon vivant, chatterer, laughter, balances taciturn Alsatian. "I am hot water, it is cold water and to take a good shower, it is necessary to arrive at the right temperature", summarizes Elena with this metaphor that he had to use a few hundred times for twenty years to describe their duo. "My side jovial speed, very Latin, was good with his Alsatian side more reserved.It's cliché but it's true, even if it's a bit of a facet at Seb.When we really know ... he would be almost as crazy as I. But yes, he manages to stop me, I get to the booster. "

In competition, the pair also borders on the perfect puzzle. Very quickly, Daniel is blown away by the pilot Loeb. He understands that he has chosen the right horse. After two decades of cohabitation, he is still admiring:

"He's a gifted pilot who's in control of his brain, he's not looking for the last tenth, he's never going beyond the limit of what he's able to do, he's very knowledgeable and I think his past as a gymnast has helped him at that level, and everything that has an engine, he's stealing instantly, it's crazy, he won everything in the rally, when he did some private testing in F1 he was going fast. a motorcycle, he does what he wants, put a helicopter in his hands and he will use it in five minutes.When it comes to flying, he knows how to do.
"Daniel, he was biting the same bullshit as usual"
If Loeb is the ultimate driver, Elena is the perfect co-driver. The one who agrees not to have his own destiny in his hands in the car. It looks like nothing, but it's not so simple. He will flourish in this role. "Generally speaking," says Loeb of his double in "My line of conduct, nothing scares him, whereas I am not really comfortable in situations that I do not control."

And Loeb to tell this anecdote: together, they performed a few years ago a baptism of parachute jump. The Alsatian was mortified before jumping from the plane to four thousand meters above sea level. Nothing to do with fear of emptiness. No, what worried Loeb was having to depend on someone, in this case his monitor, to whom he was harnessed. He was undergoing the event: "When the door opened, I really freaked out, Daniel, he had the same bullshit as usual, a smile on his lips." He threw himself into the void as if nothing was there. "

It's the same in rally as in parachute. Monitor or pilot, he relies on the other. Without fear. The rally is a sport at risk, and it is still special to exercise it without being able to control 100% of the potential danger. But it is an indispensable prerequisite. "If a minimum of fear settles, slip Daniel Elena, there will be a micro hesitation." Who says hesitation says error, which says error says road exit. Co-driver, Loeb, though naturally drunk by speed, would have been the type to shout "brake! Brakes!" in the left bucket. He admits it, he could never have accommodated this function: "In any circumstance, I want to control the situation." These two were really good.

After three seasons of learning and development, Sébastien Loeb is crowned world junior champion in 2001. That same year, driving a Citroën Xsara, he won the first race in his first race in the WRC during the rally. from Sanremo, behind Gilles Panizzi, then untouchable on asphalt. The herringbone brand knows that it holds a real nugget and, no doubt, a future world champion. The Loeb machine is launched, it will not stop.

The ejection seat
For Daniel Elena, everything is not so simple. For a long time, he will have to convince. For a long time, he will be on a seat more or less ejectable. He will have to wait for the first world championship titles to become almost untouchable. In 1998, at the end of their first joint campaign, Dominique Heintz and Rémi Mammosser, the patrons and chaperones of Loeb, wanted to dismiss Elena. In the spring of 1999, Loeb will also be joined by a new co-driver for a race, but will insist on continuing with Elena.

Later, in 2003, Guy Fréquelin, the big boss of Citröen Sports, who does not really have the right one, will also try to get rid of it after the biggest pellet of the career of Monegasque. In Turkey, Elena's misdirection misplaced Loeb's Xsara in the wild: gasoline failure and abandonment, in the midst of a world title fight. "Frequelin was red with anger and at the time, I was also very angry with Daniel," says Loeb, "but I defended him with the boss, who was determined to release him."

[dimviii]

If every blunder, and he has committed some ("I was the pilot who used the best handbrake in the pins to catch Daniel's bullshit on the road course," according to Loeb), placed him on the hot seat is that Daniel Elena has long paid his image dilettante. Many considered him a wanker and it took him a long time to get rid of this pan very largely unjustified. "Behind his air I do not care, he hides a strength of character quite impressive," notes Loeb. The entertainer Elena was more than the king's madman. He was the king next to the king.

His discreet but strong personality will allow him to cope with the initial defiance of decision makers, and in front of the horde of co-pilot predators ready to steal his place, so good, alongside the French driver. Daniel Elena knows he can thank Loeb, who never let go. If the Alsatian had not shown him an unshakable confidence in their early years, he would have been forced to go elsewhere. But never will the duo be dissociated. The following belongs to History. The first world title, in 2004, and the eight others that followed. Nine world crowns for the greatest rider in history. And for the greatest co-pilot?

Elena, it's Karajan
It was generally felt that Daniel Elena had a gift for copiloting. Of course, in the car, the key element is Loeb. The latter had issued, a few years ago in L'Equipe, this judgment that may seem severe but is fair: "With a serious co-driver, but of average level, I win races.If you put Daniel, nine times world champion, with an average driver, he does not win, it's cruel, but the performance comes from the driver, not his teammate. "

But if Loeb is irreplaceable, Elena is still valuable. Not far from being indispensable. Especially in his way, he revolutionized his profession. First by creating with Loeb his own system of notes: concise but sharp and ultra-precise, more probably than in the system used by Anglo-Saxons and Nordics.

These notes are now crucial with the limitation of recognitions, while they were almost unlimited until the 90s. In the Loeb-Elena system, the value announced corresponds to the angle of the turn. The lower the value, the slower the turn. Conversely, the higher the value, the faster the turn. Many have been inspired since, starting with Sébastien Ogier and his co-driver, Julien Ingrassia.

Then there is the Elena style, which does not read the notes, but declaims them. The sings, almost. His musicality, which is his own, plays a lot in the driving of Sebastien Loeb, which is as much a melody as the text. "I could almost drive with my eyes closed, just at the sound of Daniel's voice," said Loeb one day. "Danos" is defined as a "conductor". In the car, Karajan, it's him. "I'm his eyes, he's my hands," he tells me, "I'm on the baton, the co-pilot is going to give the tempo, the rhythm in relation to the notes." The pilot plays the music and together we try to deliver the most beautiful symphony possible, I am the conductor, Seb is the maestro. "

[dimviii]

If every blunder, and he has committed some ("I was the pilot who used the best handbrake in the pins to catch Daniel's bullshit on the road course," according to Loeb), placed him on the hot seat is that Daniel Elena has long paid his image dilettante. Many considered him a wanker and it took him a long time to get rid of this pan very largely unjustified. "Behind his air I do not care, he hides a strength of character quite impressive," notes Loeb. The entertainer Elena was more than the king's madman. He was the king next to the king.

His discreet but strong personality will allow him to cope with the initial defiance of decision makers, and in front of the horde of co-pilot predators ready to steal his place, so good, alongside the French driver. Daniel Elena knows he can thank Loeb, who never let go. If the Alsatian had not shown him an unshakable confidence in their early years, he would have been forced to go elsewhere. But never will the duo be dissociated. The following belongs to History. The first world title, in 2004, and the eight others that followed. Nine world crowns for the greatest rider in history. And for the greatest co-pilot?

Elena, it's Karajan
It was generally felt that Daniel Elena had a gift for copiloting. Of course, in the car, the key element is Loeb. The latter had issued, a few years ago in L'Equipe, this judgment that may seem severe but is fair: "With a serious co-driver, but of average level, I win races.If you put Daniel, nine times world champion, with an average driver, he does not win, it's cruel, but the performance comes from the driver, not his teammate. "

But if Loeb is irreplaceable, Elena is still valuable. Not far from being indispensable. Especially in his way, he revolutionized his profession. First by creating with Loeb his own system of notes: concise but sharp and ultra-precise, more probably than in the system used by Anglo-Saxons and Nordics.

These notes are now crucial with the limitation of recognitions, while they were almost unlimited until the 90s. In the Loeb-Elena system, the value announced corresponds to the angle of the turn. The lower the value, the slower the turn. Conversely, the higher the value, the faster the turn. Many have been inspired since, starting with Sébastien Ogier and his co-driver, Julien Ingrassia.

Then there is the Elena style, which does not read the notes, but declaims them. The sings, almost. His musicality, which is his own, plays a lot in the driving of Sebastien Loeb, which is as much a melody as the text. "I could almost drive with my eyes closed, just at the sound of Daniel's voice," said Loeb one day. "Danos" is defined as a "conductor". In the car, Karajan, it's him. "I'm his eyes, he's my hands," he tells me, "I'm on the baton, the co-pilot is going to give the tempo, the rhythm in relation to the notes." The pilot plays the music and together we try to deliver the most beautiful symphony possible, I am the conductor, Seb is the maestro. "

250 days together in 3m²
But the greatest strength of the "couple" Loeb-Elena is its extraordinary alchemy, which can not be explained. Loeb is a huge pilot. Elena a great copilot. But if the first has never imagined to ride with another pair, it is mostly for a question of affinities. They eventually became inseparable and their complicity in the race, extended by their friendship outside the car, weighed positively on their performance.

"Our story is that of a professional adventure but also a story of friendship in life, ensures the Southern copilot.We can always succeed in the car without strong personal affinities, with a pilot who jumps from a co-driver to the other, but I think that trust in the car sometimes helps to get the last few seconds and to avoid some mistakes too. "

Daniel Elena would not have imagined to live with a guy with whom he had nothing to share. "At the big time, we spent the equivalent of 250 days together in 3m².It is interesting to get along, he blows, hilarious.It is a special link.There are galleys, happiness , the joys and the best is to share these emotions with someone, someone who is close to you, who knows why we were in the galley, why we came out. is great."

Elena and Loeb shared more than just wins and titles. Teammates, friends, and even neighbors since they settled five minutes from each other in Switzerland, near Lausanne, the "big" and the "dwarf", as they are sometimes called, have not dissociated work and friendship. "In twenty years, there has never been weariness in our couple, swear Monegasque.We speak of everything, of nothing, of our private lives.We have the same friends, we see ourselves outside, our women are friends, our girls are friends, when we're in the car, it's the bonus, because that's our passion. " "Danos" admits "some shouting", widely spaced and always without consequences: "We rarely argue because when we have something to say, we said it before it goes up in pressure."

[dimviii]

"I did not play sports to be famous"
For Sébastien Loeb too, Daniel Elena is more than a co-driver. In his autobiography, the nine-time world champion has strong words to sum up their relationship:

"We shared everything: the victories, the bickering, the doubts, the affliction, the hope, the futile things like the unfathomable sorrows or the great joys of our lives." Daniel was by my side at the funeral of daddy and then of mother He saw my daughter grow up, side by side, we became adults, then fathers. "
Their friendship puts them on an equal footing that the rally has never fully offered them. Neither financially (the pilot wins on average four to five times more than his co-pilot) nor in terms of exposure. At the height of its splendor, Loeb "could not do ten meters without being stopped for an autograph or a photo, whether at the car show, at the airport or at the supermarket," said Elena, who never had this problem.

When asked if he took shade from the shadows, the jovial Southerner almost annoyed. "Frankly, I do not give a damn," he says, "for the simple reason that I'm lucky enough to live off my passion, it's not given to everyone. the crate, I take a huge pleasure, I'm happy Why have frustrations? I did not play sports to be famous and I am someone hyper simple.

The most successful co-driver of all time also does not regret having "suffered" the choices of his double, as when he decided to leave the WRC at the end of 2012. It is his condition that wanted it. "We discussed it together and I respected his decision." Episodically, we saw the two men in WRC for a few luxury races, like this weekend in Catalonia, where they masterfully won their 79th joint victory. He also followed him on the Dakar for three years. "A great adventure, but a lot of galleys and then it hurts the ass," he laughs in reference to his coccyx injury that forced the duo to abandon in 2018.

Pétanque and co-driving school
At 46 (he celebrated them last week on the rally of Catalonia), his future is in dotted line. For the first time in a long time, Sébastien Loeb lacks short-term plans after Peugeot Sport's withdrawal from rallycross. By definition, Elena too, and we feel almost worried: "Our future? It's very difficult to say at the moment. It's the blur. We have to see what Seb wants to do."

But Daniel Elena does not miss occupations. He drives a little, for fun, amateurs. Play a lot of pétanque, his other big passion. He built his own company a few years ago, and is working on a project that is close to his heart, the co-pilot school he has just launched. "I learned on the job and it still learns a lot on the job, but I created this school to prevent young people from committing the mistakes I made," he says.

Today, he wants to transmit, to enhance his profession. His art, almost. Daniel the laughter always took seriously the way his work was considered, and especially as it was not always. When the FIA ​​had the co-driver's name removed from WRC cars in the 2000s, it was he who went to coal. He will eventually convince Jean Todt, then become boss of the FIA, to put it next to that of the driver.

His co-pilot career fades as Sébastien Loeb's projects dwindle. He could turn to someone else. But there is no question. True to what he had promised himself, he refused all offers from another pilot. For the 2019 Dakar, Elena had a proposal to be co-pilot on an official Toyota. "I refused because, as I have always said, I remain faithful to Seb". And if his friend needs him anywhere, for anything, he'll know where to find him: "if one day he wants to leave, on the Dakar, in the WRC or elsewhere, I'll be there. . "

https://www.eurosport.fr/wrc/grands-recits/2018-2019/les-grands-recits-daniel-elena-le-roi-d-a-cote_sto6992574/story.shtml

[gorganl2000]

thanks dimvii

[Rally Power]

https://www.rallye-sport.fr/loeb-en-prive-au-dakar/

More info on Loeb/Elena Dakar entry: private project supported by Red Bull and Bardahl and run by PHSport, using a 2017 3008, as last year Evo isn’t allowed by the regs any more. Rallyesport guys also mentioning that the last Dakar private win is from Schlesser, back in 2000; another record for Loeb to beat?