Engine Deals

[truefan72]

Auto Motor Sport is reporting that Torro Rosso is set to use Honda engines for 2018 and Mclaren are moving to renault engines.
The announcment is set to take place tomorrow before the GP.
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/honda-toro-rosso-12303730.html

This is an interesting decsion for both
1. That honda engine could come good and catapult STR to higher levels
2. but will RBR sabotage any kind of progress STR mihgt be able to make? ( i won';t put it past horner and marko)
3. will the renault now make the mclaren more competitive and allow them to keep Alonso?
4. or will they come to regret this move as it seems that alonso is destined to be always on the other side of these situations. Because from where i see it, that Honda engine is slowly starting to be competitive and could be even more so by season's end.

IMO, mclaren should stick with Honda and allow alonso to move to another team if he decides to. His best bet would be to get a seat at williams.
They have invested all this time and effort with honda and it could develop into a solid partnership. They seem to be compromising their long term future to satisfy a current driver ( who in all fairness is being paid a boat load of money) which is never the approach to take. I would have given honda 1 more year and insisted on a more transparent working relationship with them.

[N4D13]

McLaren have given Honda three years and they haven't got any better - it's embarrassing. Believing that the Honda engine will catapult STR ahead of RBR is like expecting Santa Claus to come to your house and do your laundry. In fact, the latter seems more plausible - you'd only need an early Christmas costume and enough beer.

[AndyL]

It conflicts with what Horner was saying about how Red Bull could exercise a veto over who gets Renault engines. But on the other hand, Flavio was saying he hoped for some progress on behalf of his driver Alonso within hours.

[Bagwan]

A lot of things are up in the air right now , what with talks about simplification on the power plant side .
Horner looked to have his cards held far from his vest , knowing that making it an easier task could bring Honda back into it .
Having Torro Rosso as the testing mule makes a lot of sense for all concerned , as they'll come with a cheap price tag at this point , but save face , moving sideways in the midfield .

[inimitablestoo]

Given Horner's comments about Renault not so very long ago, I'd be surprised if the French took any notice of any attempt to veto who took their engines...

[The Black Knight]

It conflicts with what Horner was saying about how Red Bull could exercise a veto over who gets Renault engines. But on the other hand, Flavio was saying he hoped for some progress on behalf of his driver Alonso within hours.

I still don't understand how Flavio is allowed anywhere near a F1 paddock. He should have received a life ban for Singapore 2008. It really shows how weak the governance is in the FIA,

[zako85]

I still don't understand how Flavio is allowed anywhere near a F1 paddock.

This picture link explains all:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/photo/main-gallery/president-of-azerbaijan-ilham-aliyev-and-first-lady-mehriban-aliyeva-flavio-briatore-13633864/

Flavio is apparently F1's liason to Azerbaijan's dictator (err.. president for life) Ilham Aliev.

[A FONDO]

Honestly I find it hard to imagine Renault being any better than Honda next year.

[AndyL]

Honestly I find it hard to imagine Renault being any better than Honda next year.

It's more reliable, at least.

[steveaki13]

Trouble for Mclaren is that Renault engines unless they suddenly make the best engine doesnt get them into the top 3 teams. Unless they have a better car than Red Bull. Unlikely.

That was originally the one hope with Honda. That being a one team engine supplier, they would produce a cracker and put Mclaren at the front.

With such limited engine options these days its hard to reach the front. The best engine is Mercedes and you will never get a better car than the Mercedes really.

[airshifter]

I think Mclaren should wait it out a year, and see what they can get the Honda to do. They obviously have the handling, and changing the car again around a Renault powerplant is just as risky a roll of the dice as they made going to Honda. I think at this point most likely Alonso is gone regardless. I have to agree with Steveaki13.... even if they integrate the Renault into the car flawlessly, they still only have a top 3-4 car.

[AndyL]

Trouble for Mclaren is that Renault engines unless they suddenly make the best engine doesnt get them into the top 3 teams. Unless they have a better car than Red Bull. Unlikely.

Other drivers have said the McLaren looks as good as the Red Bull in the corners now. Presumably they have to believe they could beat Red Bull on a level playing field, otherwise they might as well go home.
But yeah, best case scenario that puts them 3rd, which is still not where they want to be.

[Big Ben]

Many seem to be putting a lot of hopes into the 2021 engine formula. Something is really wrong in F1 if they almost write off the next 3 seasons. McLaren had the right idea when they bet on Honda. It was common sense that taking the available engines would be settling for mediocrity. Unfortunately Honda brought them to the point where mediocrity would be a vast improvement. Now lets just hope the 2021 formula would be magical. 4 years go by like nothing. Like it wasn't bad enough when you had to write off an entire year from the get go.

[Rollo]

Something is really wrong in F1 if they almost write off the next 3 seasons.

Not if you're Mercedes-Benz.

It's pretty easy to see that the rules were designed to freeze out anyone who had a dud engine. This was about kicking Renault off of the top step and making sure that they remained face down in the gravel.

[Starter]

I'm wondering whether any engine deal in 2021 will make a difference. Looking at the longer term future of racing in general leaves one scratching their head. The advent of self driving cars, which are almost certain to be fairly commonplace in ten years, will change the sport forever. Where will the big money put in by the manufacturers go then? I'll guarantee one thing - all of the big players have already considered this and are formulating plans to deal with it. F1 and other forms of car racing may not be a large part of those plans.

[AndyL]

I'm wondering whether any engine deal in 2021 will make a difference. Looking at the longer term future of racing in general leaves one scratching their head. The advent of self driving cars, which are almost certain to be fairly commonplace in ten years, will change the sport forever. Where will the big money put in by the manufacturers go then? I'll guarantee one thing - all of the big players have already considered this and are formulating plans to deal with it. F1 and other forms of car racing may not be a large part of those plans.

F1 may well come to an end, or at least be very different. But car racing in general, I don't think will change that much. Most car racing goes on with little direct support from the manufacturers. As has been observed in the past, the horse as a form of transport is ancient history, but horse racing is still a big deal.

[Starter]

F1 may well come to an end, or at least be very different. But car racing in general, I don't think will change that much. Most car racing goes on with little direct support from the manufacturers. As has been observed in the past, the horse as a form of transport is ancient history, but horse racing is still a big deal.
Without betting horse racing would have seen the glue factory long, long ago.

[N4D13]

Autosport is running the story that McLaren is finally parting ways with Honda for 2018, and Toro Rosso will be running Honda engines then. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131767/mclaren-agrees-deal-to-leave-honda-for-renault

[Duncan]

New details reported by Motorsport (and elsewhere) saying that Red Bull is going to be using Honda from 2019.

I'm wondering whether we're seeing things unfold in reverse order from the causality... as in, the primary driver for the shuffle is RBR being out of contract with Renault after 2018 (speculation on my part) and needing to get Honda engines after that as their only option. Needing to make that work in 2019 drove them to look to get Honda supplying engines to STR next year, so as to make sure they can keep an eye on Honda's development and get data needed to line up for 2019. That in turn gave McLaren an opening, but Renault demanded more to release STR from their contract next year, hence the Sainz "loan".

This is all based on my speculation that after the big falling out between Renault and RBR, they agreed their weird TAG Heuer branding/supply deal only through the end of 2018, leaving RBR with no options after that. My speculation is based on the fact that all of this looks very much like RBR/STR negotiating from a position of weakness.

[AndyL]

The firm with the worst engines joins up with the team that has the worst record for bad-mouthing their engine supplier. What could possibly go wrong!

[zako85]

New details reported by Motorsport (and elsewhere) saying that Red Bull is going to be using Honda from 2019.

That's a wild speculation, but if it turns true, it's probably because Red Bull thinks it can strong-arm Honda into allowing Red Bull engineers to develop that engine. Didn't Red Bull clash with Renault over this issue?

[truefan72]

As I mentioned in a previous thread about th mclaren-honda-STR-sainz-alonso saga i really think that the Honda Engine is gonna come through and become a more than decent engine probably by next year.
Also slooking at the singapore times, both Alonso and Vandoorne are comfortably in the top 10 of both FP1 and so far in FP2.
So it looks like Alonso will continue his streak of missing out on a better car for whatever reason.
I'm not saying the renault is not capable, and in the right hands (RBR) is a race winner.
But Honda just spent 3 years working out the kinks with McLaren and now STR and RBR will repa the benefits of that development.
Meanwhile McLaren will continue to flounder and probably look for salvation (and another development phase) when and if porsche enter F1

[emporer_k]

Who would have believed 3 years ago that the iconic image of McLaren and Hondas partnership would be Fernando Alonso sat in a deckchair.

[zako85]

Who would have believed 3 years ago that the iconic image of McLaren and Hondas partnership would be Fernando Alonso sat in a deckchair.

This reminds Porsche's disaster re-entry into F1 racing in the early 1990s. Enough has been written about that.

[Duncan]

That's a wild speculation, but if it turns true, it's probably because Red Bull thinks it can strong-arm Honda into allowing Red Bull engineers to develop that engine. Didn't Red Bull clash with Renault over this issue?

I'm not so sure it's that wild... Christian Horner gave a non-denial-denial response when asked about it, and it does seem that the current supply contract with Renault (I mean, Tag Heuer) only runs through the end of next season; I'm not sure if that was already known, but Horner confirmed it.

Renault may be not so happy to extend for another two years (I'm assuming a grand reshuffle of supply contracts for the 2021 season) so... what does that leave?

[Mia 01]

Horner had hinted that RB could run a Aston Martin badged Engine from 2020.

We will see, the game is on between Toro Rosso And MacLaren.

[truefan72]

Mclaren might regret parting with Honda now. The car is going well in Singapore.
Perhaps after 3 years, they finally got their stuff together and now foolishly they will not reap the rewards of 3 years of painful development.
STR and RBR might be laughing at them
wouldn't it be sad if Alonso stipulated his return to mclaren if they got rid of honda and next year the honda comes good. lol

[Tazio]

Mclaren might regret parting with Honda now. The car is going well in Singapore.
Perhaps after 3 years, they finally got their stuff together and now foolishly they will not reap the rewards of 3 years of painful development.

It will take divine intervention for McLaren to get both cars to the checkered flag :dozey:

[truefan72]

It will take divine intervention for McLaren to get both cars to the checkered flag :dozey:

lol...that might be true too. ;)

[AndyL]

Mclaren might regret parting with Honda now. The car is going well in Singapore.
Perhaps after 3 years, they finally got their stuff together and now foolishly they will not reap the rewards of 3 years of painful development.


I don't think so, they are still near the bottom of the speed trap times. It's a chassis circuit not an engine circuit, and the McLaren chassis is pretty good. Remember Alonso taking the fastest lap in Hungary.
Every year since Honda came back we've been wondering if it'll be the year that they get their stuff together, but if anything it seems like they're getting worse.