TOYOTA GAZOO Racing WRT

[Tarmop]

I see a GR4 chassis, not only a FL.

[AnttiL]

Yeah, most likely the team has had input on the GR4 model which will then be used as the basis for the WRC car, with some issues already solved or things improved in the base model. Kind of like in the Group A days with homologation specials...

Well, some people think they are not a factory team...

[AnttiL]

https://twitter.com/LPaanala/status/1225740580141117440

[mknight]

So Toyota will introduce a new car just for 1 year... and Hyundai will likely do the same with new I20 road car beeing introduced soon. (Hyundai also did this once before in 2016).

MSport likely lacking a lot of pace next year (same as 2016 again).

[Eli]

So Toyota will introduce a new car just for 1 year... and Hyundai will likely do the same with new I20 road car beeing introduced soon. (Hyundai also did this once before in 2016).

MSport likely lacking a lot of pace next year (same as 2016 again).

I can't stress this enough, I hope we get another manufacturer into the WRC before it's too late.

[deephouse]

I think if all of remaining three will sign at the deadline of april 2020 that the regs will get green light. If one (I believe M-Sport will not be part of it because of huge costs involved) that just for two teams it's not worth it.

Still there is hope that either Skoda or Subaru will come up with a solution. Or both. That would be amazing.

[Karbonyl]

Still there is hope that either Skoda or Subaru will come up with a solution. Or both. That would be amazing.Would be great to see rumoured Subaru to come back to WRC together with Prodrive which has been deeply involved in hybrid/electric development for few years already.

[mknight]

Would be great to see rumoured Subaru to come back to WRC together with Prodrive which has been deeply involved in hybrid/electric development for few years already.

I find your lack of faith (in Skoda entry) distrurbing.

[Oscar Cibie]

Would be great to see rumoured Subaru to come back to WRC together with Prodrive which has been deeply involved in hybrid/electric development for few years already.

It would indeed, Prodrive are putting their expertise into the Dakar rally for next year.

https://www.prodrive.com/prodrive-heads-for-dakar

[deephouse]

And an iconic blue/gold livery with 555 sponsor style... wet dreams

[Rally Power]

So Toyota will introduce a new car just for 1 year... and Hyundai will likely do the same with new I20 road car beeing introduced soon. (Hyundai also did this once before in 2016).


Most likely current or 2021 new cars can be easily adapted to ’22 rules as the hybrid system is due to be compact and work complementary to the exisiting ICE (apparently placed on a box at the rear of driver’s seats). Besides, spaceframe chassis will be optional, not mandatory (probably used by manus with only SUV’s or crossovers on their range).

It worth to take a look on FIA hybrid system tender: https://legal.fia.com/web/appeloffre.nsf/F1AA7144B5082934C12584D500563B6B/$FILE/ITT%20WRC%20Hybrid%20System%202022-2024_Final%2019.12.2019.pdf?openelement

[dimviii]

new video with yaris 2021
https://youtu.be/efSC6ENRDwo

[EstWRC]

Is it only me who thinks it looks like i20 from this angle?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQMSEAhWAAEaRjl?format=jpg&name=large

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQMSEAaWkAAmTqp?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQMSEA7U8AAgtb5?format=jpg&name=large

[Allez Andruet]

Is it only me who thinks it looks like i20 from this angle?

Not only you.

[AnttiL]

https://hencca.galleria.fi/kuvat/Urheilu/Rallitestej%C3%A4+2020/Juho+H%C3%A4nninen+07.02./

Very good pics from Henri Vuorinen

[EstWRC]

E: antti was faster, looks even more like i20 on those pics

https://scontent.fhen1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/84667984_107681777471101_2414112258503213056_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQmUuHLNQu-X_y-iRbTzNbBs0GQM-glAzyzVH4op4CFonD8tO2SMXZ6KkxonzuCU4zg&_nc_ht=scontent.fhen1-1.fna&oh=843f9fb1c5bd4d217bd81fa3d2d4f3c3&oe=5EC800F0

[Mirek]

The important thing is that it finally looks like a rally car and not like a candy in aero dress.

[mknight]

It's interesting how the new car seemingly has less "extra" aero compared to the old one. I guess that's partly cause the base aero of the car is much better so there is less need for "extra" stuff to correct it. That actually seemed to be one of the main motivation for introducing the GR4. To have a more suitable "basecar".

The interesting points aero-wise:

- the extra "sidewings" on the front sides/wheelarches are gone, on the other hand the diveplanes look quite a lot bigger, so basically getting enough downforce at the very front in the first place instead of adding extra sidewings that are probably less effective.

- Rear sidepods with a "cut in" from the sides is something new, alltogether they look much more similar to the current I20 than to the current Yaris

- maybe this is only due to this being a preliminary design which they fit as a start but the diffuser looks like some attempt at a double-deck/blown diffuser combination with all the empty space between it and the exhaust and rest of the bumper

- the lower parts of the sides/doors look now exactly like the I20 and partly Fiesta with a continuous flat part from the front wheel all the way to the back instead of the current Toyota design which seems to get a lot of damage from gravel from the front wheels on rough gravel events

[HKSjbg]

https://hencca.galleria.fi/kuvat/Urheilu/Rallitestej%C3%A4+2020/Juho+H%C3%A4nninen+07.02./

Very good pics from Henri Vuorinen

How is it possible that Toyotas now look this cool? This, the road-going GR and the Corolla look like they’ve come from a completely different company than the Toyota we’ve known for the last 15-20 years...

[er88]

There's been quite a lot of stuff that's popped up on youtube with Toyota having track days/media days with the new road going car, with Meeke, Alonso and Jose Maria Lopes involved.

They are definitely hyping it up. Nice to see a manufacturer making a car like this again.

[HKSjbg]

There's been quite a lot of stuff that's popped up on youtube with Toyota having track days/media days with the new road going car, with Meeke, Alonso and Jose Maria Lopes involved.

They are definitely hyping it up. Nice to see a manufacturer making a car like this again.

Yeah I think that view is widely shared too. The thread on the Yaris GR on Pistonheads is just about the most universally approving, supportive and least polarising discussion the forum has ever had!

[Ricardo Filipe Matos]

This new Yaris is only for one year, right?
And then in 2022 will it be the Corolla?

[Portimao]

What's the point of developing a car just for one season?

[tommeke_B]

What's the point of developing a car just for one season?

To learn from that and use the knowledge for the development of the next generation car for the seasons after, which will be built from the same base car. ;)

[Eli]

This new Yaris is only for one year, right?
And then in 2022 will it be the Corolla?

It depends what the regulations will be for 2022 on-wards but as it stands now it looks like we're going to stay with the B-segment cars for a few more years, next year it will be 10 years! since the first DS3 & Fiesta were introduced to the WRC stages back in... Rally Sweden...

[deephouse]

I'm more likely concerned that the amount of SUV's novadays on the road and many models of each brand (which by the way had maybe only one few years ago if they had any at all), that they will adapt more or less that kind of segment cars and modify to the regulations they will introduce. Also a many brands are introducing ''cross versions'' of hatchbacks and b segmen cars these days. Everything goes on electric/hybrid and SUV's.

[mknight]

Have you two not noticed that the news are already out that the new regulation allow scaled "siluette" cars with a spaceframe chassis? So it doesn't matter what cars manus produce.

[Eli]

Have you two not noticed that the news are already out that the new regulation allow scaled "siluette" cars with a spaceframe chassis? So it doesn't matter what cars manus produce.

Yeah I kinda forget about that for a minute there, my bad.

[Mirek]

What's the point of developing a car just for one season?


To learn from that and use the knowledge for the development of the next generation car for the seasons after, which will be built from the same base car. ;)

The main reason is marketing. Toyota doesn't need to promote the old model but the new one.

[pantealex]

The main reason is marketing. Toyota doesn't need to promote the old model but the new one.

That´s THE reason.

PR.

[dimviii]

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/toyotas-2021-car-test-what-weve-learned-so-far/

[dimviii]

https://www.wrcwings.tech/2020/02/10/toyota-starts-testing-the-yaris-wrc-design-for-2021/

[mknight]

C. Clark has a point that testing and developing the new car can compromise their performance/development with current one. As he writes in 2016 VW tested 2017 on most pre-event tests, often dropping the 2016 car completely. Imo it showed as by mid-season 2016 Polo wasn't the clearly unbeatable car any more.

Lluis at WRCWINGs for some reasons misses the omission of the small front side-planes ahead of the doors and more importantly the completely different car sides/floor extensions.

[lluisva555]

Big thank you for posting it, dimviii!

Mknight you are right, thanks, the side extensions are not reviewed in detail, because they looked provisional to me. I do mention that there is no top fender vent and no winglet yet, while I'm convinced they will come back in future designs. They are a great contribution to the car balance and I don't expect they want to worsen it. We'll have to wait until the next test and see what they do.

[racerx1979]

C. Clark has a point that testing and developing the new car can compromise their performance/development with current one. As he writes in 2016 VW tested 2017 on most pre-event tests, often dropping the 2016 car completely. Imo it showed as by mid-season 2016 Polo wasn't the clearly unbeatable car any more.

Lluis at WRCWINGs for some reasons misses the omission of the small front side-planes ahead of the doors and more importantly the completely different car sides/floor extensions.

Akio just read this and lol'ed, pulled out his wallet and threw a few thousand dollars in the air and said "we got money fo dayz muthafugga" and walked away.

Toyota has a huge budget and a CEO who is unbelievably passionate. So much so that he has talked to heads of Mitsubishi, Mazda and Subaru to try to get them involved in rallying. I even heard he was talking to Monster Tajima a few months back. Toyota today is not the same as VW in 2016-2017.

[mknight]

Money is not a problem, just like it wasn't for VW. Test days limits are (though a bit less for Toyota than others) if you want to test other places than around Jyväskylä. Furthermore driver and especially engineer availability can also be an issue.

[AnttiL]

Money is not a problem, just like it wasn't for VW. Test days limits are (though a bit less for Toyota than others) if you want to test other places than around Jyväskylä. Furthermore driver and especially engineer availability can also be an issue.

Yeah, and in 2016 you had more test days available (BTW did they have extra days for developing the 2017 cars?).

As for driver availability, Toyota has Hänninen who is their designated test driver, other teams don't really have such guys (Matthew Wilson at M-Sport?)

[deephouse]

Hyundai have Loeb, he is 9 time champ. If he isn't the best "test" driver I don't know who it is. They also had Abbring and he did quite good job.

[AnttiL]

https://www.rallit.fi/tommi-makisen-tiimin-uusi-tahti-pisti-tallipaallikonkin-hamilleen-kaikki-ovat-ihan-huuli-pyoreina/

Tommi says that Elfyn was able to change his driving style in the Sweden PET after the team had some recommendations. After that he hasn't touched the setup during the rally. He also considers Elfyn to be a champion contender

[tonis_t]

To be honest, I do not understand why would Mäkinen let Rovanperä finish before Ogier.
Rovanperä is still learning and even though huge talent and future promise he can not be trusted to be sable for the full year and there fore to be the force to lean on to bring home either individual nor manufacturers title.
Mäkinen has openly stated, that one of his goals is to convince Ogier to continue next year. No doubt to help to develop 2022 car.
Pissing off Ogier is not the way to achieve this goal. If at the end of the year he will miss drivers title by few points I'll bet he will remember Sweden.
Last year Mäkinen did not want to give out team orders so Latvala and Meeke tried to fight with Tänak until they went off. In my opinion Mäkinen lost the manufacturers title because he would not force Latvala and Meeke to play ball. Toyota was clearly the fastest car and still the title went to Hyundai.
Then he let Tänak to go to Hyunday. I do understand that it was pretty weird stuff with the negotiations however Tänak was heavily involved with Fords 2017 car development (1x manu title and 2x drivers title) and then further developed the Toyota to winning car (1x manu title and 1x drivers title and Ogier choose Ford after testing Toyota in 2017). Now Tänak will help to develop 2022 Hyundai and I'll bet he will make current car faster also.
Mäkinen now has some one he can lean on to develop the next gen car and he is willing to let him go just because he is not willing to give out team orders? I'm not sure that Adamo's way is the correct way however Mäkinen's way in my opinion, is also short sighted.

[AnttiL]

Lappi was too close behind for them to start playing with team orders.

[tonis_t]

Rovanperä could have waited 2 hours on the side of the road before finish and it would have been the same result for the team points wise.
And when we look how things were done last year, I doubt that this was the case.

[Sulland]

To be honest, I do not understand why would Mäkinen let Rovanperä finish before Ogier.
Rovanperä is still learning and even though huge talent and future promise he can not be trusted to be sable for the full year and there fore to be the force to lean on to bring home either individual nor manufacturers title.
Mäkinen has openly stated, that one of his goals is to convince Ogier to continue next year. No doubt to help to develop 2022 car.
Pissing off Ogier is not the way to achieve this goal. If at the end of the year he will miss drivers title by few points I'll bet he will remember Sweden.
Last year Mäkinen did not want to give out team orders so Latvala and Meeke tried to fight with Tänak until they went off. In my opinion Mäkinen lost the manufacturers title because he would not force Latvala and Meeke to play ball. Toyota was clearly the fastest car and still the title went to Hyundai.
Then he let Tänak to go to Hyunday. I do understand that it was pretty weird stuff with the negotiations however Tänak was heavily involved with Fords 2017 car development (1x manu title and 2x drivers title) and then further developed the Toyota to winning car (1x manu title and 1x drivers title and Ogier choose Ford after testing Toyota in 2017). Now Tänak will help to develop 2022 Hyundai and I'll bet he will make current car faster also.
Mäkinen now has some one he can lean on to develop the next gen car and he is willing to let him go just because he is not willing to give out team orders? I'm not sure that Adamo's way is the correct way however Mäkinen's way in my opinion, is also short sighted.

Maybe Ogier already have pissed off Makinen, no jokes aside, He was too impressed with Rovanpera to ask him to slow on the PS.

[flykas]

To be honest, I do not understand why would Mäkinen let Rovanperä finish before Ogier.
Rovanperä is still learning and even though huge talent and future promise he can not be trusted to be sable for the full year and there fore to be the force to lean on to bring home either individual nor manufacturers title.
Mäkinen has openly stated, that one of his goals is to convince Ogier to continue next year. No doubt to help to develop 2022 car.
Pissing off Ogier is not the way to achieve this goal. If at the end of the year he will miss drivers title by few points I'll bet he will remember Sweden.
Last year Mäkinen did not want to give out team orders so Latvala and Meeke tried to fight with Tänak until they went off. In my opinion Mäkinen lost the manufacturers title because he would not force Latvala and Meeke to play ball. Toyota was clearly the fastest car and still the title went to Hyundai.
Then he let Tänak to go to Hyunday. I do understand that it was pretty weird stuff with the negotiations however Tänak was heavily involved with Fords 2017 car development (1x manu title and 2x drivers title) and then further developed the Toyota to winning car (1x manu title and 1x drivers title and Ogier choose Ford after testing Toyota in 2017). Now Tänak will help to develop 2022 Hyundai and I'll bet he will make current car faster also.
Mäkinen now has some one he can lean on to develop the next gen car and he is willing to let him go just because he is not willing to give out team orders? I'm not sure that Adamo's way is the correct way however Mäkinen's way in my opinion, is also short sighted.

Maybe it would be logical. But that would look very bad wouldn't it? To deny the first podium after such an amazing drive. I am not sure even Ogier would want to do that.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

SuperKallewentballisticOgiwasattrocious ! ;)

[Päss1928]

Ogier ogier ogier... He's quitting this year anyway. Why would you want to start messing with the young guy's mindset right away on his second rally, he could be the next Loeb for you and be with you for the next 10 years. Nobody wants to see these ridiculous team orders. If you want to win - step on it on the stages.

[AnttiL]

Kalle’s early podium probably created a lot of positive media coverage, whereas a team order would have been negative

[dimviii]

Ogier ogier ogier... He's quitting this year anyway. Why would you want to start messing with the young guy's mindset right away on his second rally, he could be the next Loeb for you and be with you for the next 10 years. Nobody wants to see these ridiculous team orders. If you want to win - step on it on the stages.

At the end of the year we will see if this tactic was right or not.

[Norm75]

Glad they didn't give team orders.

It's down to the six time world champion to beat the rookie.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The Transformation of Elfyn Evans: https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-transformation-of-elfyn-evans/

[Rally Power]

Mäkinen has openly stated, that one of his goals is to convince Ogier to continue next year. No doubt to help to develop 2022 car. Pissing off Ogier is not the way to achieve this goal. If at the end of the year he will miss drivers title by few points I'll bet he will remember Sweden.

With Evans and Rovanpera continuing to deliver top results probably there’s no need to keep Ogier in 2021; bringing Lappi back could be enough. Who knows, maybe Makinen’s happy face after the PS was about realizing he can actually save all those millions of Ogier wage…besides, Evans, Latvala and Hanninen are more than competent to help developing the future car.

[er88]

I think Makinen was just ecstatic as he has earmarked Kalle to be his driver since 15/16, said openly he was ahead of Lappi and Suninen when they all tested the Yaris years ago, and obviously was still in a bit of shock at how well he has done so soon.

Tommi also mentioned how good the feeling was within the team, with all 3 drivers. I think a weight has been lifted without Tanak and Martin grumbling away in the background, haggling over R5s and all the other contract shite that soured the relationship last year, and so far it looks like Evans and Ogier can fight for the title. When Tanak was announced at Hyundai, it looked for a few weeks like Toyota were fucked and maybe wouldn't have any driver capable of a full title challenge.

Now they have two (and a future 3rd in Kalle), who actually want to be there at the team and care only about the driving. The scenes in the Toyota camp with Evans and Rovanpera's dads involved was great to see. Happy faces on everyone and although Ogier wasnt delighted with 4th, his comments about Kalle deserving 3rd in the TGR youtube video were nice to see.

[HKSjbg]

The scenes in the Toyota camp with Evans and Rovanpera's dads involved was great to see.

Off topic I know, but were Gwyndaf and Harri ever technically teammates (as their sons are now, to bring it slightly back on topic) at Seat? Or did Gwyndaf only drive for Seat UK or something like that?

[Rando]

Kalle is marvelous, MC was already proof enough. He has clearly set the bar for young drivers incredibly high (Oliver Solberg etc.) Nevertheless for me it was a real surprise that no team orders were given. It is clear that Kalle is not in the position to fight for the title. Why the heck did TGR want to give points away? It seemed to be just a intoxicated moment in a very Finnish team. Clearly not a pleasant moment for Ogier and the team spirit itself. Not a wise decision in my mind.

[Allez Andruet]

It is clear that Kalle is not in the position to fight for the title.

How come that's "clear"? He's got 30 points from the first two rallies and is only 12 points away from leading the whole thing. Yes, he'll probably make a mistake or two sometime during the year, but we'll see. It would have been an idiotic call from Tommi to give any sort of team orders. Also on short-term, but especially thinking about long-term.

[Rally Power]

I think Makinen was just ecstatic as he has earmarked Kalle to be his driver since 15/16, said openly he was ahead of Lappi and Suninen when they all tested the Yaris years ago, and obviously was still in a bit of shock at how well he has done so soon.

I was joking on that (no doubt Makinen was happy for the Rovanperas) and serious on the rest; if Ogier declining is confirmed, why trying to convince him to continue? Many drivers are available and it’s great for the series to be able to get new title contenders and push young drivers over the top.

[jiipee64]

Off topic I know, but were Gwyndaf and Harri ever technically teammates (as their sons are now, to bring it slightly back on topic) at Seat? Or did Gwyndaf only drive for Seat UK or something like that?

At least RAC 1999 they both drove Seat Sports entries Seat Cordoba WRC Evo 2

[Allez Andruet]

At least RAC 1999 they both drove Seat Sports entries Seat Cordoba WRC Evo 2

And the year before as well, with the older version of that lethargic WRC.

[V.Gatev]

Any chance for english translation?
https://areena.yle.fi/1-50454608

[AnttiL]

Any chance for english translation?
https://areena.yle.fi/1-50454608

It's a bit long piece to translate. Mostly the series focuses on nostalgy.

[cali]

I guess Tommi is a bit allergic to team orders due to some nasty team orders he received at the start of his Mitsubishi era

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[V.Gatev]

It's a bit long piece to translate. Mostly the series focuses on nostalgy.

Thanks!

[dimviii]

How come that's "clear"? He's got 30 points from the first two rallies and is only 12 points away from leading the whole thing. Yes, he'll probably make a mistake or two sometime during the year, but we'll see. It would have been an idiotic call from Tommi to give any sort of team orders. Also on short-term, but especially thinking about long-term.

no he wouldnt be idiotic to help collecting points,a multiple champion who paid plenty of millions just some months ago to serve his team.Thats the logic thing.
Rovanpera is still young and must have patience.One or two mistakes doing yearly,is drivers at Neuvilles/Ogiers/Tanak level.
if he is at this level,we will see at year end.

[dimviii]

Why the heck did TGR want to give points away? It seemed to be just a intoxicated moment in a very Finnish team. Clearly not a pleasant moment for Ogier and the team spirit itself. Not a wise decision in my mind.

i could have write exactly the same.

[er88]

I think it would've set the wrong tone to do team orders this early, to deny a youngster a possible podium on his 2nd ever rally. It was quite historic.

You also had Lappi and Neuville just behind, so would be difficult to implement team orders without Kalle dropping from a possible 3rd place and incredible result, to 6th. Would have been a real downer for him personally to be denied that, and gone against even what Ogier had been saying about team orders. And Ogier arguably didn't deserve team orders, he has to look at himself for being beaten by both team mates despite road position being not too dissimilar.

And lastly - and this is a big leap - but who knows now if Kalle for sure won't be involved in a title fight? He has that much potential and natural ability, that it is now not impossible that he could have a Loeb-like 2003 first full season.

However I do think Adamo would've made the call unlike Tommi, if he was in charge at TGR. Despite how unpopular it might have been.

[mknight]

Rovanpera could enter the final time control (in service after PS) 1 min late and get 10s penalty, extremely easy to do.

After Neuville loudly compared at end of 2018, Hyundai was doing various team order on just about every second rally last year, starting with position switch and no PS push allowed in Sweden.

However, I agree that here there were lots of things around that did no make it an easy choice. If I am a bit harsh I would say that already now Tommi secretly values long-term nursing of Rovanpera over Ogier who is likely gone at the end of the year while Rovanpera is part of his (and Jouhkis) long term plan. Doesn't look like he is particularly fond of Ogier anyway, specially with the "offer" at end of 2016 and the whole process around it.

EDIT: Corrected early/late

[AnttiL]

Rovanpera could enter the final time control (in service after PS) 1 min early and get 10s penalty, extremely easy to do.

1 min early would give 1 min penalty? 1 min late would give 10 seconds penalty.

[Tarmop]

Again, Rovanperä should not be put under pressure by these overwhelming comments nor overhyped (tiresome probably to him also:D) . Yes, he has done fine until now, lets wait for it a bit more...there are many examples of doing fine from the start...Suninen and Lappi started of magnificent, but are somehow stuck...mr. Novikov was also great in his second season (but remember, that it was his second season in the series also, without lower classes).

[Old Rally Fan]

Tommi Makinen reportedly said to Andrew Cowan (his boss from Mitsubishi era, he died in October) something like: "For Toyota I want to be, who you were for Mitsubishi" (and Cowan was to answer: "You won't be, you can't employ such a great driver, as I could"). It seems, that Tommi doesn't follow the way of his mentor, at least not completely. Rally of Sweden, 25 years ago, 1995: Cowan told Tommi not to put a pressure on Kenneth Ericsson (before the last day Ericsson was 1st, probably 1 second, or sth like that, ahead of Makinen). Tommi was irritated. He didn't slow down, before the last special stage of last day had circa 40 of 50 seconds of advantage, and stopped almost at the end, only to present his attitude towards "team order". Well, maybe this is a psychological key (as it was suggested in one of previous posts). Anyway, it is really interesting. I am not sure, what is my opinion about Makinen's way vs Adamo's way. I have no opinion.
By the way: was Andrea Adamo also the professional rally driver (I don't know)?

[Rallyper]

Again, Rovanperä should not be put under pressure by these overwhelming comments nor overhyped (tiresome probably to him also:D) . Yes, he has done fine until now, lets wait for it a bit more...there are many examples of doing fine from the start...Suninen and Lappi started of magnificent, but are somehow stuck...mr. Novikov was also great in his second season (but remember, that it was his second season in the series also, without lower classes).

No. I think this is another level than all of them mentioned as examples. Two very difficult rallies with such mature and youngster stylish done, can´t be one offs... Sorry.

[mknight]

No. I think this is another level than all of them mentioned as examples. Two very difficult rallies with such mature and youngster stylish done, can´t be one offs... Sorry.

What two rallies? He did great in Sweden, in Monte he was 4 mins behind. Doing a good job but nothing head scratching given he drove the rally before.

Just like in 2017 when Lappi and Suninen started I am getting a bit tired of some of the hype he gets. Sure he is doing great, but when reporters mention it in every interview it gets tiring. He must be fed up with it most of all. Can't remember Loeb being threated with same hype in 2003.

[pantealex]

If Kalle and Ogier would have been 4-5 or 5-6 (not in podium places) then maybe Team orders could have been used,
but it would have been so bad PR now so it wasn´t option in this situation.

When was last time someone was taken away from Podium with Team order?
(counting out last rallies of season I prefer)

[mknight]

When was last time someone was taken away from Podium with Team order?
(counting out last rallies of season I prefer)

Mikkelsen in Sweden last year.
Check out the results in last 3 stages and most notably the PS. On that one he beat Neuville both the year before and on first run on Friday (by 7s) and was 3rd fastest WRC. Yet when he was just 4s behind on Sunday he instead finished almost 1s/km behind the winner as one of last WRCs and talked how he was crossing his fingers for Thierry.

He was rewarded 2 days later by being told he won't drive on Corsica.

EDIT: Lappi was pretty much denied fight for win by teamorders in Turkey last year as well. Starting Sunday on same time as Ogier he "took it cautious" and finished next stage as 2nd last car 0.8s/km behind Ogier. Doesn't count as "taken away from Podium" though.

[gorganl2000]

i have no issues with the way Tommi handled the Kalle/Ogier situation. I think Kalle deserved the 3rd place he worked hard for all weekend (especially the last stage effort) and it would have been very unfair to deny him that. I also think Kalle did very well in Sweden, but this should not be blown out of proportion as he still has a lot to learn compared to the likes of Ogier/Tanak/Neuville/etc. Ogier is a very professional and seasoned driver and knows how to win a championships, it appears he assessed the stakes and did not want to take the extra risks to secure 3rd place; there are several rallies to come and a new car to learn some more about. i don't think Ogier has lost his mojo or is on any kind of a decline, he's 3rd in the championship at the moment which says a lot. He's a smart and calculated person.

i'm very happy to see Evans stepping up his game, congrats to him and i hope he's able to take the fight to the top 3 consistently over the season. On a side note, i also hope Lappi can somehow get to that level as the season progresses but i'm not sure if it's him and/or the car that needs the little extra push. Finally, it looks like Breen had a rough weekend, but to be thrown in the deep end and make it to the end while following the team orders is nothing to be scuffed at---he did ok given the situation.

bring on the next rally

[Tarmop]

No. I think this is another level than all of them mentioned as examples. Two very difficult rallies with such mature and youngster stylish done, can´t be one offs... Sorry.

Monte was good, but he had done it before...Tänak was out, Ford`s were pretty much out from the start. Great result ofc in Monte, though nothing that special.
Sweden...he started driving at the age of 8....on ice-tracks+ at the beginning of the year, he enjoyed the conditions in Finland (event+ testing) and those are the roads we know Yaris performs the best. You also have to count that the event was ran only 50%, we don`t know what would have been in normal circumstances (like he said it himself, tyre managment is something he doesn`t know very well yet), with first starters having a bit better conditions to make up for the lost time and vice versa.

We have to wait with the hype, especially with handing out titles. Just saying...

[er88]

What two rallies? He did great in Sweden, in Monte he was 4 mins behind. Doing a good job but nothing head scratching given he drove the rally before.

Just like in 2017 when Lappi and Suninen started I am getting a bit tired of some of the hype he gets. Sure he is doing great, but when reporters mention it in every interview it gets tiring. He must be fed up with it most of all. Can't remember Loeb being threated with same hype in 2003.


Loeb definitely got it, im sure you can just watch some highlights or something if you can't remember. When Duval got his first podium in Turkey, I remember future champion comments from reporters and commentators. That was Duval..., in a car breaking Turkey....

Kalle deserves the hype imo. He's a level headed lad and I doubt he pays much attention to it either way, so dunno why it is so tiring. It's exciting and I fail to see why a rally fan can't see that, as it's not normal seeing a 19yr old kid beat his 6time WRC champion team mate, in equal conditions over the course of a rally (and on a powerstage that Ogier is renowned for getting big pts in).

It's not like Kalle did one or two good stage times, he has put two good rallies together (one showing top speed, one showing good maturity/sensible approach). The potential is absolutely massive.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Did I miss something? Kalle was given the podium by Ogier? Team orders?

[Franky]

Did I miss something? Kalle was given the podium by Ogier? Team orders?

You've got it the wrong way round. Kalle not given team orders.

[mknight]

Kalle deserves the hype imo. He's a level headed lad and I doubt he pays much attention to it either way, so dunno why it is so tiring. It's exciting and I fail to see why a rally fan can't see that, as it's not normal seeing a 19yr old kid beat his 6time WRC champion team mate, in equal conditions over the course of a rally (and on a powerstage that Ogier is renowned for getting big pts in).


Well we didn't have allive before. It's not like he doesn't deserve credit, but the most tiring part is that the reporters use it as a "filler line" all the time. Yes he is 19 and all that.. and we hear it 15 times per day including at all stage ends..

I am not so sure he isn't paying attention to it himself. As a driver he has much more experience than his age might suggest, but as a person he just isn't very old. Might lead him to get too confident or too self-doubting (Lappi and Suninen anyone?).

Looking how "normal" it is has to take into account how much experience he has driving rally cars. He doesn't have that much (especially in WRC) but certainly much more than just looking at his age might suggest.

[AnttiL]

I didn't expect Kalle to get any podiums this year. I would have been happy with good stage times and top 5 finishes. This was above my expectations, but I don't expect him to continue getting more podiums. Especially the technical gravel rallies will be difficult for him, and most likely tarmac rallies as well. Based on this result we could expect him do well in Finland and maybe Wales also. But like someone said already, this was a short rally, and it's mentally more demanding to keep a good position for 300 km versus 150 km.

And yeah, let's just let FIA award the titles at the end of the year to the driver with the most points :)

[doubled1978]

I didn't expect Kalle to get any podiums this year. I would have been happy with good stage times and top 5 finishes. This was above my expectations, but I don't expect him to continue getting more podiums. Especially the technical gravel rallies will be difficult for him, and most likely tarmac rallies as well. Based on this result we could expect him do well in Finland and maybe Wales also. But like someone said already, this was a short rally, and it's mentally more demanding to keep a good position for 300 km versus 150 km.

And yeah, let's just let FIA award the titles at the end of the year to the driver with the most points :)

Everything you say is true, but I have a funny feeling we may see a few more surprises from him this season, especially on those rallies you mention. That said I’m sure there will be some character building events as well for him to endure..

[mknight]

I really wonder how he does on the overseas and new rallies. Cause that's where both Lappi and Suninen have struggled the most and mostly still struggle.

[Rallyper]

If not hyping Kalle, who then deserves being hyped?

Some of you guys can´t stand performances well over expected.

Having said that, we can surely expect ups and downs in the future for him. Let´s wait and see.

[Tarmop]

Hyping is always bad...in front.

[Rallyper]

Hyping is always bad...in front.

Hyping in a positive way is never bad.

[steve.mandzij]

I really wonder how he does on the overseas and new rallies. Cause that's where both Lappi and Suninen have struggled the most and mostly still struggle.I think he'll do well in Argentina and might even be a candidate for the win. He pretty much dominated in 2018 until he had his massive accident on El Condor

[mknight]

Hyping in a positive way is never bad.

Definition of "hype" is promotion consisting of exaggerated claims. = saying something is better than it actually is.
In other words "positive" lies. Therefore hyping in "negative" way is technically impossible.

I my view lying is never good, but opinions differ on that.
Praise is not the same as hype. Whether what some commentators do is hype or praise is another discussion.

(end of language corner)

[Rallyper]

Definition of "hype" is promotion consisting of exaggerated claims. = saying something is better than it actually is.
In other words "positive" lies. Therefore hyping in "negative" way is technically impossible.

I my view lying is never good, but opinions differ on that.
Praise is not the same as hype. Whether what some commentators do is hype or praise is another discussion.

(end of language corner)

:) So in this case it´s about words then.

Can we agree Kalle did more than expected both in RMC and RS? And his future looks bright?

[AnttiL]

Can we agree Kalle did more than expected both in RMC and RS? And his future looks bright?

Yes, but we still need to wait longer to see his true potential.

[Rallyper]

Yes, but we still need to wait longer to see his true potential.

Sure. But still the future looks bright. Right? We´ve seen a lot yet. ;)

[mknight]

Can we agree Kalle did more than expected both in RMC and RS? And his future looks bright?
Yes I agree.
For me the overseas and new events are the ones that will be most interesting. On the european ones I expect him to be around 3-4 place at least after what we have seen so far.

[Norm75]

Before getting too carried away, we need to take into account the exceptional circumstances of rally Sweden.
Kalle did very well, and for outright pace seems to be very competitive, but to be 3-4 placed on European events will mean beating one of the 'big three'.
Sweden was halved in the amount of stages, with extra tyre changes. Let's see how he copes under normal circumstances before getting too excited, but for sure he will grow and be one for the future.

[mknight]

Kalle did very well, and for outright pace seems to be very competitive, but to be 3-4 placed on European events will mean beating one of the 'big three'.

One of the three will either be cleaning the road or have some issues (punctures, offs). Looking at last year the only european events where none of the 3 had issues were Portugal and GB. On the other 6 events there was always something. (Sure Rovanpera will also have issues here and there) .

[Norm75]

We can't really draw comparisons to last year.
Ogier isn't in the worst car, he is in what most consider the best car.
The Toyota has had a change of rims so we shouldn't be seeing the rim failures we saw last season. Evans has seemed to gel with the Yaris, and then we have the likes of Sordo and Loeb, as well as Neuville and Tanak at Hyundai.
For that reason I would say placing 5-6 in those rallies would be a more realistic expectation, but the real measure will be stage times not so much final placing in rallies.

[Tarmop]

Toyota changed its setup, not the rims i believe.*

[Norm75]

Toyota changed its setup, not the rims i believe.*

Scroll down the story

https://www.wrcwings.tech/2019/08/26/modifications-in-the-successful-toyota-yaris-wrc-in-rally-deutschland/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Yaris GR prices revealed:

https://www.evo.co.uk/toyota/yaris/201932/new-2020-toyota-gr-yaris-to-start-under-ps30000

If Evans wins the WDC will the roads of Wales be full of these like it used to be full of Subaru Impreza's ? ;)

[deephouse]

Icons can't be replaced with any kind of cool or ''fascinating'' car. It just can't.

[pantealex]

Yaris GR prices revealed:

https://www.evo.co.uk/toyota/yaris/201932/new-2020-toyota-gr-yaris-to-start-under-ps30000

If Evans wins the WDC will the roads of Wales be full of these like it used to be full of Subaru Impreza's ? ;)

I believe that they will make only those 2500 pieces which are needed for homologation, so prices could go up...

That happened with Celica "Carlos Sainz Limited Edition", used cars were more expensive than new ones.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I believe that they will make only those 2500 pieces which are needed for homologation, so prices could go up...

That happened with Celica "Carlos Sainz Limited Edition", used cars were more expensive than new ones.

It's 25,000.

"The GR Yaris will not be limited to just a few hundred units, instead Toyota will need to produce a full 25,000 next year in order to comply with WRC regulations."

[Tarmop]

Nope. it is 2500, like the rule says. Confirmed by D. Evans in Dirtfish and several other.

[pantealex]

GR-Four as it says on cars back tail is new recce car for TGR, 8 pieces are coming to Puuppola/Tallinn.

Cars will be recce ready in summer.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Nope. it is 2500, like the rule says. Confirmed by D. Evans in Dirtfish and several other.

Can you show the proof. I read this...

"Typically with WRC homologation requirements, you have to sell 25,000 examples of a base car, and 2500 of them have to be the model variant being homologated for rally. Wikipedia's helpful example highlights Subaru: to homologate the WRX for rallying, you have to sell 25,000 Imprezas and of those, 2500 have to be WRXes. But, the GR Yaris is so different than the standard Yaris, Toyota will have to sell 25,000 for homologation."

[pantealex]

Can you show the proof. I read this...

"Typically with WRC homologation requirements, you have to sell 25,000 examples of a base car, and 2500 of them have to be the model variant being homologated for rally. Wikipedia's helpful example highlights Subaru: to homologate the WRX for rallying, you have to sell 25,000 Imprezas and of those, 2500 have to be WRXes. But, the GR Yaris is so different than the standard Yaris, Toyota will have to sell 25,000 for homologation."

normal Yaris is only a 5-door model but, like already mentioned, they just need to make 2.500 3dr Yaris in order to match Gr.A basic body dimensions rules (one of the few limitations of the WRC Kit variant).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

normal Yaris is only a 5-door model but, like already mentioned, they just need to make 2.500 3dr Yaris in order to match Gr.A basic body dimensions rules (one of the few limitations of the WRC Kit variant).

That would mean no need to make a GR4 version just some basic 3-door cars so why have they bothered ?

The GR4 is much different to any other Yaris, its not just the number of doors. It has a lower coupe-style roofline and the wider body and arches. Toyota TGR wanted this for the WRC car for better aero, a wider track and better placement of the rear wing.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a30548586/why-toyota-made-gr-yaris-homologation-special/

"This is a stunning machine and a true homologation special, for while it's unique four-wheel-drive system isn't eligible for WRC competition, the specialised, low-roof, lightweight three-door bodyshell most certainly is. To qualify to use the new car in the WRC, however, the company will have to build 25,000 road-going models in a single year."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/news/toyota-gr-yaris-world-rally-championship-racer-road-unveiled/

[Sulland]

That would mean no need to make a GR4 version just some basic 3-door cars so why have they bothered ?

The GR4 is much different to any other Yaris, its not just the number of doors. It has a lower coupe-style roofline and the wider body and arches. Toyota TGR wanted this for the WRC car for better aero, a wider track and better placement of the rear wing.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a30548586/why-toyota-made-gr-yaris-homologation-special/

"This is a stunning machine and a true homologation special, for while it's unique four-wheel-drive system isn't eligible for WRC competition, the specialised, low-roof, lightweight three-door bodyshell most certainly is. To qualify to use the new car in the WRC, however, the company will have to build 25,000 road-going models in a single year."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/news/toyota-gr-yaris-world-rally-championship-racer-road-unveiled/

2500 GR4's will be sold in a week, at the right price they will sell 25 000 without any problem as well.
Get started national rally cups with rabated cars will also help getting the numbers up!

From the early tests it looks like a fun car to drive in road version, a rally version would be even better!

[pantealex]

That would mean no need to make a GR4 version just some basic 3-door cars so why have they bothered ?




Basic 3-door doesn´t excist...
Normal "Made in France" Yaris is always 5-doors, GR-Four is "Made in Japan" and as you said differences are big, I have seen it Live few times (red, white and black color units so far)

Ford Fiesta is only largely sold B-segment car which is still available in 3-doors.
Clio, 208, C3, Corsa, Fabia, Ibiza, Polo, Rio, i20, Micra, Jazz ... only 5-doors

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Basic 3-door doesn´t excist...
Normal "Made in France" Yaris is always 5-doors, GR-Four is "Made in Japan" and as you said differences are big, I have seen it Live few times (red, white and black color units so far)

Ford Fiesta is only largely sold B-segment car which is still available in 3-doors.
Clio, 208, C3, Corsa, Fabia, Ibiza, Polo, Rio, i20, Micra, Jazz ... only 5-doors

You miss my point. If it was just a 3-door version of the Yaris that TGR required then Toyota could just have made a simple 3-door version or a FWD hot-hatch for them.

But Makinen told Toyoda they wanted a special version they could base the 2021 WRC car on, with lots of differences. This meant a very different 'homologation-special' was required - the Toyota GR Yaris doesn’t share a single body panel in common with the stock Yaris.

This means that the GR Yaris is the 'basic car' that the 2021 WRC car will be based on and therefore 25,000 cars are required, not 2500.

Autocar:
"We’re not sure if Toyota will make the hatch a regular member of the band or restrict it to a limited-run homologation special. If it’s the latter, Toyota will build at least 25,000 of them to comply with WRC rules."

CAR:
"With most of the world turning to boring cars, Toyota has found its mojo with the GR brand and released another product hot on the heels of the recently relaunched Toyota Supra. What’s more, the Yaris GR isn’t just a limited run special, but it’s a 25k run of cars that is born out of the need to homologate its WRC car."

[HKSjbg]

You miss my point. If it was just a 3-door version of the Yaris that TGR required then Toyota could just have made a simple 3-door version or a FWD hot-hatch for them.

If they built just a 3 door Yaris it wouldn’t sell. Hence why only one B-segment car is built in 3 door form nowadays... until this arrives!

[pantealex]

Autocar:
"We’re not sure if Toyota will make the hatch a regular member of the band or restrict it to a limited-run homologation special. If it’s the latter, Toyota will build at least 25,000 of them to comply with WRC rules."

CAR:
"With most of the world turning to boring cars, Toyota has found its mojo with the GR brand and released another product hot on the heels of the recently relaunched Toyota Supra. What’s more, the Yaris GR isn’t just a limited run special, but it’s a 25k run of cars that is born out of the need to homologate its WRC car."

You are copying things from Magazines, what is actual FIA WRC rules saying ?

[Tarmop]

Eddie, You already started the same discussion in another thread and you got the same answers, taken from the FIA rules and written by people who know the area. Even one of your favourite journalists has confirmed it, yet again you try to claim otherwise. Exactly the same scenario has happened a few times before.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

You are copying things from Magazines, what is actual FIA WRC rules saying ?

I know the FIA rules but they dont confirm whether the normal 5-door Yaris is ok as the base car, or if it must be the vasty-different GR Yaris.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Eddie, You already started the same discussion in another thread and you got the same answers, taken from the FIA rules and written by people who know the area. Even one of your favourite journalists has confirmed it, yet again you try to claim otherwise. Exactly the same scenario has happened a few times before.

Tarmop, where is this other discussion and where is your proof of only 2500 cars required ?

[tommeke_B]

It's a good question actually. If it works that way, Hyundai could now also make a base car for their next WRC, that has almost nothing to do with the actual i20. Then they could put the label "i20" on it and sell only 2500 pieces of it.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The base car has to sell 25000.

The model-variant, just 2500.

But the GR Yaris is a lot more than a model variant as it has a different, unique shell and chassis.

For example, a Fiesta ST is a model variant.

[Rally Power]

The base car has to sell 25000.
The model-variant, just 2500.
But the GR Yaris is a lot more than a model variant as it has a different, unique shell and chassis.
For example, a Fiesta ST is a model variant.

For gods sake, there’s no mention about 25.000 units in the FIA rules, just 2.500. All current rally cars, from R1 to WRC, are homologated under Gr.A basic rules (therefore the 2.500 units) and later modified according to their category regs (using the evolution variants of the Gr.A model). Check FIA Appendix J Article 255 (Gr.A) and 255A (WRC kit variant).

Once WRC cars rules are quite permissive, manus tend to use a cheap mass-produced model to cope with Gr.A homologation demands but they’re free to make 2.500 homologation special models if they want; actually the Yaris GR4 isn’t the first case in the WRC era: at least the 206 GT (4.000 units) and the Polo R (2.500 units) were purposely made to achieve Gr.A/WRC homologation.
http://www.cwn.org.uk/motoring/peugeot/1999/05/990505-206-gt.htm
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/polo/62626/volkswagen-polo-r-wrc

Btw, even the Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rally_Car has the 2.500 figure right, which makes one wonder from where the 25.000 figure come out.

[HKSjbg]

Wasn’t 2,500 model variants out of 25,000 total the old Group A8 rules? i.e. 2,500 Lancia Delta Integrales out of 25,000 Lancia Deltas etc?

[Rally Power]

Wasn’t 2,500 model variants out of 25,000 total the old Group A8 rules? i.e. 2,500 Lancia Delta Integrales out of 25,000 Lancia Deltas etc?

Again, it’s hard to find a mention to the 25.000 units (or 50.000, as Gr.A started in ’82 with a mandatory 5.000 units homologation, reduced to 2.500 in ’93) in FIA regs.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Again, it’s hard to find a mention to the 25.000 units (or 50.000, as Gr.A started in ’82 with a mandatory 5.000 units homologation, reduced to 2.500 in ’93) in FIA regs.

Try this from Toyota

Toyota Motor Corporation (Toyota) premiered the new GR Yaris―a homologation*1 model born to win the FIA World Rally Championship (WRC)―at the Tokyo Auto Salon today.(Appendix 1): https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/toyota/30976389.html

(*1) The necessary type of certification for participating in an FIA (Federation Internationale de l'Automobile) race. To acquire WRC homologation, the base model of a vehicle to be entered in a race must have a continuous 12-month production volume of 25,000 units or greater.



The Yaris GR is so different from the normal Yaris, it itself must be considered the BASE MODEL, hence it needs 25,000 units.

The Ford Fiesta WRC is based on the Fiesta ST. But the ST is very similar to the base Fiesta. So Ford has to make 25000 basic Fiesta's and only 2500 ST's.


And from another forum on this subject:

Quote: RSgeoff
I don't understand why they need to sell 25,000 to qualify for WRC - why aren't all the other WRC manufacturers having to do the same then?

Jakeh:
It's because they changed the car too much for it to count as a variant of a normal Yaris, so they have to do a special production car to count as the base for the WRC car.

[denkimi]

Try this:

(1) The necessary type of certification for participating in an FIA (Federation Internationale de l'Automobile) race. To acquire WRC homologation, the base model of a vehicle to be entered in a race must have a continuous 12-month production volume of 25,000 units or greater.


This is for the BASE MODEL. But the Yaris GR is so different from the normal Yaris it itself is considered as a BASE MODEL, hence it needs 25,000 units.

The Ford Fiesta WRC is based on the Fiesta ST. But the ST is very similar to the base Fiesta. So Ford has to make 25000 basic Fiesta's and only 2500 ST's.


And from another forum on this subject:

Quote: RSgeoff
I don't understand why they need to sell 25,000 to qualify for WRC - why aren't all the other WRC manufacturers having to do the same then?

Jakeh:
It's because they changed the car too much for it to count as a variant of a normal Yaris, so they have to do a special production car to count as the base for the WRC car.
And where do you draw the line? When is a new version no longer a base model?

[the sniper]

Try this:

(1) The necessary type of certification for participating in an FIA (Federation Internationale de l'Automobile) race. To acquire WRC homologation, the base model of a vehicle to be entered in a race must have a continuous 12-month production volume of 25,000 units or greater.


This is for the BASE MODEL. But the Yaris GR is so different from the normal Yaris it itself is considered as a BASE MODEL, hence it needs 25,000 units.

What is the source for this quote?


And from another forum on this subject:

Quote: RSgeoff
I don't understand why they need to sell 25,000 to qualify for WRC - why aren't all the other WRC manufacturers having to do the same then?

Jakeh:
It's because they changed the car too much for it to count as a variant of a normal Yaris, so they have to do a special production car to count as the base for the WRC car.

Sorry mate but just quoting random people from an unnamed forum really means nothing.

[Rally Power]

Try this:

(1) The necessary type of certification for participating in an FIA (Federation Internationale de l'Automobile) race. To acquire WRC homologation, the base model of a vehicle to be entered in a race must have a continuous 12-month production volume of 25,000 units or greater.



I’ll be pleased to try it if you’re kind enough to mention the source of that quote.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Edited now...

[Tarmop]

To spice things up: there are rumours confirming both arguments that there will be 2500 GR4 models and 23500 groceriegetters with "no engine", FWD and CVT just sharing the same body.
Prices also known: 33k in Germany, 37,4k for a "circuit pack" with LSDs, fancier seats etc.

[Rally Power]

Edited now...

Thanks for the link; it’s hard not to be surprised with that info, especialy once the FIA rules (at least the ones I know) don’t mention it.

From FIA article 255 of 1997 appendix J (the year WRC cars were introduced):

Article 255 – Specific regulations for touring cars (group A)
1) DEFINITION
Large scale production Touring Cars
2) HOMOLOGATION
At least 2.500 identical examples of these cars must have been manufactured in 12 consecutive months.
A “World Rally Car” (WR) is a variant of a fixed model of car, previously homologated in Group A and must therefore be assembled like a Group A vehicule.
(…)
https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulations/1440582459/appendix_j_1997_low.pdf

It makes pretty clear that WRC homologation variant must be based on an existing Gr.A model and a Group A model must be produced in 2.500 units.

Btw, it’s important to note that a variant is not a model by itself but an extension, mostly composed by a set of parts, in the homologation form of a base (Group A, in this case) model.

Finnaly, here’s article 031 of the 2020 FIA appendix J / Article 255 A, the specific regulations for WRC cars (WRC Kit Variant):

ART. 031: Original Car - The series production car homologated in Group A on which the WRC kit variant car is based.
(…)
It can be downlowded by googling this:
ANNEXE J / APPENDIX J - ARTICLE 255A – 2020 ... - FiA

Basically, it says the same: WRC is not a model by itself but a variant of a homologated Group A base model; therefore there’s only the need to produce 2.500 units of a Group A car to achieve WRC variant homologation.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

"Some homologation specials relate very loosely to their racing cousins, but the GR Yaris is a proper job. The three-door shell and bodywork are bespoke. The roof is lowered by 91mm and made of carbon fibre, and the doors are frameless.

Underneath, it’s a merging of the Yaris chassis at the front, and the Corolla at the rear. This allows for clever double-wishbone suspension and that 4WD system. It even has a manual gearbox.

While the regular white-goods Yaris is built in France, the GR will be made at a specialised Gazoo Racing facility in Motomachi, Japan, using ‘a large number of manual processes’. As well as Gazoo Racing, the GR Yaris also had input from the WRC Tommi Makinen Racing team."

You can see from this how unique the GR Yaris is and totally different in every way from a standard (homologated) Yaris.

It is in essence a Yaris in name only - hence the requirement to make 25,000 units to homologate this new 2021 car.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Further clarification from: https://www.crankandpiston.com/new-toyota-gr-yaris-wrc-homologation-special-set-for-january-2020-reveal/

"Why go to all the effort and expense of re-engineering things such as the roofline and axles for a homologation special ?

Gazoo Racing’s 2021 Yaris WRC car differs so much from the standard Yaris that this homologation model will need to be produced. In contrast to old Group N WRC rules, which required a limited number of closely related road-going examples to be produced in order to comply (think early Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution or Subaru WRX), today’s rules allow a wider chasm between the road and rally versions.

Venture outside these limitations, as Toyota Gazoo Racing looks to have done, and a far bigger production run is required to homologate the race car.

As such, the GR Yaris will not be limited to just a few hundred units, instead Toyota will need to produce a full 25,000 next year in order to comply with WRC regulations."

[Rally Power]

Further clarification from: https://www.crankandpiston.com/new-toyota-gr-yaris-wrc-homologation-special-set-for-january-2020-reveal/


Eddie, you can keep posting dozens of quotes from mags and sites but that’s not a clarification once they all got the same media pack from Toyota. What’s needed to clarify this matter is to know the exact FIA rule on which Toyota based the 25.000 units mention on their PR.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Eddie, you can keep posting dozens of quotes from mags and sites but that’s not a clarification once they all got the same media pack from Toyota. What’s needed to clarify this matter is to know the exact FIA rule on which Toyota based the 25.000 units mention on their PR.

I only quote other sources to explain the idea and why I'm not just making this up.

But I get it, you dont want to believe me and be proved wrong.

I give up now - you will see soon.

[Rally Power]

I only quote other sources to explain the idea and why I'm not just making this up.

But I get it, you dont want to believe me and be proved wrong.

I give up now - you will see soon.

Jezus mate, we’re all here to have fun sharing and learning about our Rally passion, not to prove anything.

[T16]

I only quote other sources to explain the idea and why I'm not just making this up.

But I get it, you dont want to believe me and be proved wrong.

I give up now - you will see soon.



Fucking hell Eddie. You should have your own thread. It would be easier.

[Rally Power]

Let’s stop the fuss and enjoy Mexico! Arriba, arriba…

[OHL]

I only quote other sources to explain the idea and why I'm not just making this up.

But I get it, you dont want to believe me and be proved wrong.

I give up now - you will see soon.

Homologation requirements are not the easiest thing to understand and it is very easy to make a mistake. However, minimum build numbers are clearly covered in Appendix J Article 255 Art. 2.
"At least 2500 identical examples of these cars must have been
manufactured in 12 consecutive months.
Unless restriction specified on the homologation form, all
homologations valid for Group N are valid for Group A.
In order for a Group A car to take part in rallies, its characteristics
and the dimensions of its parts must always be less than or equal to
the characteristics and dimensions specified for a World Rally Car
(this does not apply to variable geometry turbochargers of
supercharged diesel engines).
If a Group A car does not originally comply with the above point, it
must, by means of a VO type homologation, conform to the
dimensions and characteristics specified for a World Rally Car, in
order to take part in rallies."

[Fast Eddie WRC]

ToyotaUK @ToyotaUK

Mar 13
Replying to
@FastEddie

Sorry for the late response, Eddie! The GR Yaris will be produced at a minimum of 25,000 units for the WRC homologation. Thanks.

[the sniper]

ToyotaUK @ToyotaUK

Mar 13
Replying to
@FastEddie

Sorry for the late response, Eddie! The GR Yaris will be produced at a minimum of 25,000 units for the WRC homologation. Thanks.

Fella, we're beyond this now... There's no doubt Toyota PR put the 25000 number out there. What is in question is why, when people can only quote the rules as saying they only need to build 2500.

Personally I'm inclined to believe they won't only build 2500. This car has involved a lot of redesign and development work for only 2500 cars at such a relatively low price. (Now saying that, in the pre virus world, I'd have been surprised if they only built 2500, now, who knows...)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I've given up trying to explain why it's 25,000.

All believe what you like.

[Rally Power]

All believe what you like.

Amen. You’re free to be happy with an answer from Toyota while others will be happier with an answer from the FIA; which will hopefully arrive in due time, probably after more important matters, like the current pandemic crisis, are solved.

[Andre Oliveira]

Toyota Yaris GR WRC ‘21 stops

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/toyota-scraps-development-of-new-2021-yaris-wrc/

[the sniper]

Toyota Yaris GR WRC ‘21 stops

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/toyota-scraps-development-of-new-2021-yaris-wrc/

Shame now that they hadn't put the time into an R5 instead... Is it possible their attention could be turned to that in the short term, before focusing on the '22 WRC next year? Otherwise we'll be waiting years for an R5. If the economy completely dives and the Hybrids don't happen, Tommi will have nothing.

[mknight]

Well the whole idea of developing a car for just one season was a bit crazy in the first place. Yet Hyundai did the same in 2016. So question is what Hyundai does now, the i20 was supposed to get model change this year so how will they avoid running the old-looking car next year?

[Tarmop]

They might as well postpone the new i20 also, something quite common in every area this year. The sale of new cars came down 75% at one point and the financial situation getting worse, i wouldn`t be surprised if the lots are already full of new current i20s they need to try and sell first (and a good way to do that is to showcase the current i20 WRC/ R5).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Toyota has 6000 orders for the 4wd GR Yaris 'homologation special' road car. Now it turns out they needn't have bothered making one.

The car could become a valuable collectors item if they dont make any more, as 2021 homologation now isnt required.

[Tarmop]

So Tommi confrims, that the necessary amount of homologation special is 2500, though he is now not sure Toyota will ever build even that many? Interesting, with 6k pre-orders.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

GR Yaris RS ... same body but fwd & 118 bhp !!

Meet 2020’s weirdest hot hatch: the 118bhp Toyota GR Yaris RS:
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/hot-hatch/meet-2020s-weirdest-hot-hatch-118bhp-toyota-gr-yaris-rs

I think this explains the 2500 figure for homologation of the GR Yaris. This lower-powered RS version (but with the same wide body) would be the 'base car' which they would need to sell 25,000 of.

[Tarmop]

The de-tuned hothatch was already known and mentioned when we last had this discussion.

[TypeR]

GR Yaris RS ... same body but fwd & 118 bhp !!

Meet 2020’s weirdest hot hatch: the 118bhp Toyota GR Yaris RS:
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/hot-hatch/meet-2020s-weirdest-hot-hatch-118bhp-toyota-gr-yaris-rs

I think this explains the 2500 figure for homologation of the GR Yaris. This lower-powered RS would be the 'base car' which they would need to sell 25,000 of.

1953

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The de-tuned hothatch was already known and mentioned when we last had this discussion.

It was only announced on 2 June.

[TypeR]

it's like with the Kia Stinger.. Holyyy shi.. 370whp fast family car.. oh, just a random 200whp diesel

[Tarmop]

I wrote it on 11.03, this thread. As a rumour at that point, true.

[pantealex]

1953

It´s only for Japanise market. I think they still have some weird laws there, like maximum speed 160kmh/100mph.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So it turns out I was right that 25000 of the new 3-door, wide-bodied, Yaris GR needed to be built for homologation.

(But it was also true that only 2500 of this base car needed to be the 4WD version).

[tigerlily]

For homologation, it is required to sell 2,500 base cars in a consecutive 12-month and 25,000 cars of the entire car line.

GR Yaris is not considered to be the same vehicle series with normal Yaris because their body silhouettes are different. So Toyota has to sell 25,000 GR Yaris. That's why Toyota makes so many GR Yaris and sell them.

In Japan there are 3 lineups in GR Yaris series, RZ, RS and RC.

RZ 1.6L 3-Cylinder Turbocharged direct Injection engine, 6MT, 4WD
RS 1.5L 3-Cylinder Toyota Dynamic Force engine, 10CVT, FF
RC same engine with RZ, 6MT, 4WD, 30kg lighter than RZ. Base car for the competitions.

Pre-order is only for RZ and Toyota has already gotten 6,000 orders.

In Japan, 98.5% of cars are automatic and a few people can drive a manual transmission car, so no wonder that Toyota sells a CVT model.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

TGR technical director Tom Fowler interview:

https://www.wrc.com/en/archive/podcasts/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Tommi Mäkinen on the 2021 GR Yaris:

"It is clear that the end of the Toyota GR Yaris WRC is due to the coronavirus . Keep in mind that any vehicle that competes in the World Rally Championship needs 25,000 units to comply with the FIA homologation . It is difficult to answer the question of whether Toyota is now in a position to manufacture this vehicle at such volume.

Along these lines, Mäkinen added: "It has been a great disappointment for everyone , especially for all the people who have worked in the early days of the car and who have seen its full potential in the WRC . Everyone wanted to see how far the car could go. Despite this situation, everyone has been able to see that it was a car for a single year and that, therefore, the hybrid regulations of 2022 are very close and it will not be without work . We have to focus on that too because in a situation similar to the one we have now, the development of the 2022 car cannot be stopped. ”

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/podcast-the-lowdown-on-last-weeks-finland-testing/ Makinen part is 20 minutes in...

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/why-toyota-tested-its-2021-gr-yaris-after-canceling-it/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Toyota was testing driver ergonomics of the Yaris GR last week, that’s why it was running as a second car

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/why-toyota-tested-its-2021-gr-yaris-after-canceling-it/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Toyota was testing driver ergonomics of the Yaris GR last week, that’s why it was running as a second car

They also confirmed the GR Yaris will be the shape of their 2022 car, not an SUV like the C-HR.

[mknight]

So Hyundai upped their game. (looking at performance of all 3 cars, not just Tanak).

Now what will Toyota do for next year? Hastily restart the development of Yaris GR? Probably not enough time for that. Hope that small upgrades will be enough?

[Eli]

So Hyundai upped their game. (looking at performance of all 3 cars, not just Tanak).

Now what will Toyota do for next year? Hastily restart the development of Yaris GR? Probably not enough time for that. Hope that small upgrades will be enough?

Sure but they (Hyundai) still need three consistent drivers for all 10-12 rounds, the rotation system using is nice but Neuville will need to be in his game each event alongside Tanak if they want to claim another title...but this is way way way to early to speculate for next year, we haven't even finished the first event of this (renewed) year.

[AnttiL]

https://toyotagazooracing.com/release/2020/other/0922-01.html


TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION ANNOUNCES APPOINTMENT OF TOMMI MÄKINEN AS A MOTORSPORT ADVISOR
September 22, 2020
Tommi Mäkinen* will be appointed as a Motorsport Advisor to Toyota Motor Corporation (Toyota) from January 2021, with the aim of further advancing the manufacturing of ever-better cars.


Behind the appointment is Tommi Mäkinen’s impressive contribution to the supercharged re-ignition of Toyota's World Rally operations from 2017. Tommi Mäkinen and his team of professionals at Tommi Mäkinen Racing Oy helped Toyota to develop a highly competitive rally car and also built the team, TOYOTA GAZOO Racing World Rally Team, to run it at the highest level of world rallying, the FIA World Rally Championship. Already in 2018, the second year after their return, Toyota earned the manufacturers’ world championship title, and in 2019 they won the drivers’ and co-drivers’ world championship titles.

With this expertise, Toyota is sure Tommi Mäkinen is capable of contributing in even wider fields of motorsports, such as the development of motorsports-bred GR vehicles, strategic planning of motorsport activities, and driver talent development. Appointing him as a motorsport advisor of Toyota Motor Corporation, the brand is looking forward to his advice on strategy formulation and organizational operations.

Consequently, the WRC project built by Tommi Mäkinen Racing Oy - TOYOTA GAZOO Racing WRT and the design and development of World Rally Cars - will be managed directly by Toyota. From 2021 on the WRC operations will be run by TOYOTA GAZOO Racing Europe GmbH, the Toyota group company responsible for the core functions of Toyota motorsports in Europe. We plan to benefit from Tommi Mäkinen’s resolution, learning from his world-leading vehicle development know-how, cultivated at TMR, in order to link this to specific business development. We will also further strengthen our systems, including the acceleration of practical training of human resources. Still, TGR WRT continues its activities both in Finland and Estonia as it has been, using the existing human resources and some facilities originating from TMR.

QUOTES
Tommi Mäkinen, managing director and owner of Tommi Mäkinen Racing Oy

The goal of the Toyota WRC-project was to re-start the world rallying operation effectively with the flexible organization which only a small company can achieve.

I am happy to say that this goal has now been reached and it is time for me to move on to new challenges with Toyota. I want to thank Akio Toyoda for trusting me with this project and supporting us all the way to reach the goals we set together. I am looking forward to continue the work with him, designing the future of Toyota in motorsports.

We are happy that as planned Toyota now decided to acquire the WRC-operations we have built together and I am also very happy of the way Toyota provides our experts with a steady home and future as TOYOTA GAZOO Racing World Rally Team. It is also important to me that operations will still stay in Jyväskylä and Tallinn, while the TOYOTA GAZOO Racing Europe takes the team under its wing.

Akio Toyoda, President of Toyota Motor Corporation

It was only after I met Tommi that I was able to decide on Toyota’s return to the WRC.
It is because of his support that we are able to win at the WRC. And by leveraging his expertise, we were able to create the GR Yaris, a 4WD sports car.

Going forward, he will be our motorsports advisor.
In addition to providing expert advice on how to win races, as he has been doing, we expect him to provide a broad range of advice so that Toyota can produce ever-better cars.

Even after the appointment of this role, the fact that he will continue to be my driving instructor will not change.
“Tommi, let’s drive together again!”

[T16]

Not so sure what to read into this. Sounds like a bit of demotion for Tommi?

[AnttiL]

Not so sure what to read into this. Sounds like a bit of demotion for Tommi?

I would say promotion on a personal level but demotion on business level, since Toyota is not anymore buying WRC team operating service from Tommi, but using their own instead.

Interesting to see who will lead the team. Petter Solberg?

[flat_right]

For me it seems that it was because of money. If the profits (before tax) for Tommi Mäkinen Racing Oy from the past previous years have been so high and let's not forget, there is also a salary (in 2017 it was 1.7 m€), then maybe they felt that they are being robbed. And as I understand from the article then even the Finnish and Estonian bases are taken away from Tommi. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the article said that "Both sites (Finnish base and Estonian) have been acquired by Toyota."

So it is more useful for Toyota to give some fancy position with base salary to Tommi than pay enormous money for him through rally.

Tommi Mäkinen Racing Oy
2017 - 67 m€ / 8.6m€ (turnover/profit before tax)
2018 - 60 m€ / 4.5 m€ (turnover/profit before tax)
2019 - 47.3 m€ / 3.8 m€ (turnover/profit before tax)

[drive]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1105752033160314&id=201043293631197&ref=content_filter

Seems like toyota did buy out all Makinen's wrc business

[flat_right]

What I wanted to add was that you just don't replace successful team principals. Horner has run RB in F1 15 years (since 2005), Toto also has had many years, so you don't want to break a winning combination.

[AMSS]

I would say promotion on a personal level but demotion on business level, since Toyota is not anymore buying WRC team operating service from Tommi, but using their own instead.

Interesting to see who will lead the team. Petter Solberg?

Well it says Toyota basically bought TMR so on a business level this could have been a jackpot for Tommi

[AnttiL]

Until this, Toyota has paid TMR for running their WRC cars. Now Toyota is using their own team to run their WRC cars. And a part of this new team facilities and personnel were acquired from TMR.

[AnttiL]

Well it says Toyota basically bought TMR so on a business level this could have been a jackpot for Tommi

Yeah. It's always a question of when to sell your business. It's probably a good deal for Tommi, it could be that in few years the business isn't as big-scaled as it is now.

[TypeR]

interesting finding.. since 30th July 2020 the Tommi Mäkinen Racing Oü (Estonian side company) has third management board member, an Estonian lawyer. So something is clearly happening, why else would they bring a lawyer to the management..

[bluuford]

interesting finding.. since 30th July 2020 the Tommi Mäkinen Racing Oü (Estonian side company) has third management board member, an Estonian lawyer. So something is clearly happening, why else would they bring a lawyer to the management..

This lawyer has formerly worked as company liquidator...

[meh]

This lawyer has formerly worked as company liquidator...

This "liquidator" role can be just because you have closed one of your companies in registry. I have the same role for one of the company which I closed and never been doing any "liquidator" activities.

[doubled1978]

From the article they say that this move was the intention all along, that being the case it is a justification that the job has been done well in the eyes of Toyota.
It actually makes sense that they used TMR to establish the rally team, and now that has been done bring it inside the Toyota factory umbrella.
It may have nothing to do with it, but the timing is suspicious, is that with the move from LMP1 Hybrid to Hypercar for the WEC programme, there should be a decent chunk of budget possible to use elsewhere as the projected budgets to run a programme are massively less for Hypercar compared with LMP1 Hybrid.

[Tarmop]

Where`s the logic with the WEC budget. If anything, running their own operation would have been cheaper than buying it from third parties.
Also i find it hard to believe that a succesful TMGbh, winners of the past WRC events, with big options, couldn`t arrange some engineers like Fowler for instance, in their German base. Could be wrong ofc, but imho there is something more behind it, than the "original plan".

Maybe a polite and respectful way to reduce expenses, as COVID hit everything hard, they have the capability of running the show themselves, hire those people, hence no need to pay a lot extra.

[Rally Power]

This is a surprising 180º turn and no matter the nice words it sounds suspicious. Just like in 2015, when Makinen was appointed Toyota’s WRC chief (getting the program from TMG), no proper motive is mentioned on the PR, making one wondering why is now Mr. Toyoda splitting up with Makinen.

Btw, moving the WRC program back to TMG (now called TGR Europe) will probably make Finland and Estonian bases redundant; it's not hard to imagine all TGR WRC operations gathered in Cologne state-of-the-art facilities on a near future.

[EstWRC]

not a surprise at all....


all i know for sure, N.O.T will be now happier whereever he is at the moment :D

[Rally Power]

not a surprise at all....


Why isn't it a surprise for you?

[dimviii]

somebody doesnt tell the truth.Hard to believe thatMakinen will used to

'' such as the development of motorsports-bred GR vehicles, strategic planning of motorsport activities, and driver talent development''

[AnttiL]

Well it says Toyota basically bought TMR so on a business level this could have been a jackpot for Tommi



TMR will stay with me, TMR will remain and continue contracted directly with TMC. It’s going to work in motorsport and some other areas. There might be quite a lot of decent topics, but more or less I’m working directly with TMC and Akio [Toyoda, TMC president].

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/exclusive-qa-makinen-explains-his-toyota-departure/

This is sort of like if Ford started to run their own WRC program and bought all the WRC development from M-Sport (and hired Wilson as some advisor), but M-Sport would still remain doing all the other business they've been doing.

[AnttiL]

https://www.rallit.fi/onko-tassa-toyotan-wrc-tallin-tuleva-paallikko-tommi-makinen-paljastaa-keta-han-on-suositellut-seuraajakseen/

Mäkinen has recommended Kaj Lindström as his successor as a team boss

[pantealex]

Biggest factor why TGR will stay at Jyväskylä:
Testing opportunies, they can test "freely" near HQ, Cologne (Köln) is not good for that.

Tommi said in Jyväskylä´s local newspaper today that Hybrid rallycars will be manufactured in Jyväskylä.
and they need more space for that.
He said "New unknown place inside Jyväskylä, not in current Puuppola "factory"

[dimviii]

Toyota's WRC stable will move to this building in Jyväskylä.
https://translate.google.fi/translate?hl=fi&sl=fi&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.iltalehti.fi%2Fralli%2Fa%2Fe4e 694ad-f072-4844-ab7d-d824b0723970

[Rallyper]

Toyota's WRC stable will move to this building in Jyväskylä.
https://translate.google.fi/translate?hl=fi&sl=fi&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.iltalehti.fi%2Fralli%2Fa%2Fe4e 694ad-f072-4844-ab7d-d824b0723970

I´m sure Pantealex knows the location already. Right, Paavo?

[TypeR]

I´m sure Pantealex knows the location already. Right, Paavo?

https://toimitilat.kauppalehti.fi/Description/188008698

https://www.upload.ee/image/12334373/tgr.jpg

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Tommi Mäkinen believes that this year’s World Rally Championship could have been “boring” had Ott Tänak stayed with the team...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/makinen-wrc-could-have-been-boring-if-tanak-hadnt-left/

[pantealex]

I´m sure Pantealex knows the location already. Right, Paavo?

Been there few times in past.

It´s 200m from LIDL store (one which is beside Vaajakoski motorway)

Tommi lives about 1-1,5km from new factory.

[spyros]

Tommi pays Tanak loss. Japs arent stupids.

[Allez Andruet]

Tommi pays Tanak loss. Japs arent stupids.

Yep, hard to come up with any other conclusion. Most likely Akio Toyoda has checked the current championship standings in his Tokyo office and realized how bad it looks for them.

[Sulland]

How big are the organizations in Finland and Estonia in number of people employed?
Is the HQ in Estonia just a logistic base, or are more tasks done from there?

[AnttiL]

Is the HQ in Estonia just a logistic base, or are more tasks done from there?

Normal maintenance of the WRC cars between events. Development and testing is done in Finland.

[Rallyper]

Normal maintenance of the WRC cars between events. Development and testing is done in Finland.

And all cars registered in Estonia. Cheeper taxes...

[Rally Power]

Yep, hard to come up with any other conclusion. Most likely Akio Toyoda has checked the current championship standings in his Tokyo office and realized how bad it looks for them.

There’s no doubt that Makinen did a fantastic job leading Toyota’s WRC program but that actually makes his exit even more strange; btw, in TTE precedent Ove Andersson continued to lead the team (for a long time) after selling it to Toyota.

Anyway, what mostly matter is to have Toyota increasing their Rally involvement, as it now seems assured.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.evo.co.uk/toyota/yaris/203175/mysterious-toyota-gr-yaris-spied-testing-at-the-nurburgring

New hardcore road car or rally car mule ?

[Andre Oliveira]

I like the plates.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

https://www.evo.co.uk/toyota/yaris/203175/mysterious-toyota-gr-yaris-spied-testing-at-the-nurburgring

New hardcore road car or rally car mule ?New TMR..

Sent from my Redmi 6 using Tapatalk

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Seems most sites speculate its the 'hardcore road car'...

"This prototype boasts canards on its front bumper and an upsized rear wing, suggesting that it might be the GRMN variant, rather than the "basic" GR Yaris.
GRMN stands for "Gazoo Racing Meisters of the Nürburgring," after all, so it makes all the sense in the world that Toyota's motorsports development specialists would take their prototype to its namesake road course."

[Rally Power]

Seems most sites speculate its the 'hardcore road car'...

Makes sense; there's no roll cage.

[Sulland]

Getting a bit sad thinking that this is the last rally we have Mākinen as top boss in the Toyota team.

He is such a star under interviews. And Him and Adamao is a bit alike, with emotions on the outside.

I will miss him!

Who is taking over from him, was it Kaj Lindstrøm?

[pantealex]

Getting a bit sad thinking that this is the last rally we have Mākinen as top boss in the Toyota team.

He is such a star under interviews. And Him and Adamao is a bit alike, with emotions on the outside.

I will miss him!

Who is taking over from him, was it Kaj Lindstrøm?

New Boss is not announced yet.

Tommi did say that team needs Kaj in his current position...

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Speaking about the car, will they switch to GR Yaris or stay with the old one..??

Sent from my Redmi 6 using Tapatalk

[mknight]

Old in 2021

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Dirtfish
'Although the top two places in the drivers’ championship were occupied by Toyota drivers, Hyundai was able to take the manufacturers’ honors with 11 podiums from five different drivers across this season’s seven rallies.'

So the extra drivers paid off for Hyundai.

Have any other Manu hired so many to win a title ?

[masa90]

Dirtfish
'Although the top two places in the drivers’ championship were occupied by Toyota drivers, Hyundai was able to take the manufacturers’ honors with 11 podiums from five different drivers across this season’s seven rallies.'

So the extra drivers paid off for Hyundai.

Have any other Manu hired so many to win a title ?

Not in modern times. It used to normal back in the days for teams like Lancia.

[Morte66]

Mr Adamo has gamed the rules extremely well, and earned his manufacturer title.

And it's not like Rovanpera did badly or anything. Fifth in the drivers' championship, 7 points behind the Neuville in the big 4, almost two thirds as many points as Ogier who won it. Just... Hyundai played their cards right.

Still, it's not obvious that Toyota should change. You would expect Rovanpera to improve in his second year.

Unless Neuville is on the table...

[seb_sh]

Indeed, if you look at the driver nominations of Hyundai in hindsight they smartly used road position and driver-rally affinity. They could do it because their only real competition was Toyota which had a more traditional lineup; essentially whenever either Ogier or Evans hit trouble Hyundai would benefit. Additionally the road order on some rallies gave Hyundai a boost. Considering it was a very tight championship it was enough to make the difference.

[AnttiL]

Not in modern times. It used to normal back in the days for teams like Lancia.

Audi 1984 had Mikkola, Blomqvist, Rohrl and Mouton

Lancia 1987 with Kankkunen, Alen and Biasion

Actually Peugeot 2002-2003 is quite similar to what Hyundai has now with Burns, Grönholm, Panizzi and Rovanperä. Two all-around experts, and a tarmac guy rotating with a gravel guy.

[denkimi]

Mr Adamo has gamed the rules extremely well, and earned his manufacturer title.

And it's not like Rovanpera did badly or anything. Fifth in the drivers' championship, 7 points behind the Neuville in the big 4, almost two thirds as many points as Ogier who won it. Just... Hyundai played their cards right.

Still, it's not obvious that Toyota should change. You would expect Rovanpera to improve in his second year.

Unless Neuville is on the table...

it difficult to make a judgement based on points, because not many have been awarded this year. ogier has won today with 122 point, tanak had 263 last year. had the year been longer, the differences would have been greater.

[mknight]

Mr Adamo has gamed the rules extremely well, and earned his manufacturer title.

And it's not like Rovanpera did badly or anything. [Fifth in the drivers' championship, 7 points behind the Neuville in the big 4, almost two thirds as many points as Ogier who won it. Just... Hyundai played their cards right.

Still, it's not obvious that Toyota should change. You would expect Rovanpera to improve in his second year.

Unless Neuville is on the table...

I agree Rovanpera wasn't bad, maybe a bit better than expected. Though definitely not as good as predicted by many people after Sweden.
A tiny nitpick is that off course Rovanpera ended 5th... cause he was only competing with Lappi and Suninen for that as Hyundai's part time drivers couldn't get all the points in few starts. (if you sum Sordo, Breen and Loeb you get 91 vs Rovanpera at 80, they got road position advantages though)

Only different option for Toyota next year is to change their mind on rotating drivers and get some drivers for the rallies that Rovanpera is still not so good at (slow gravel, maybe tarmac). But doing that is actually quite big change in mindset so I don't expect it.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Hyundai paid the money for a roster of drivers and maybe 'bought' the Manus title.

Seems odd that Toyota GR had the top two in the Championship but didnt win the Manu's.

[EstWRC]

they didnt win the manu title but they made huge step with the reliability of the car.

night and day compared to previous seasons, especially in Mexico and Turkey where they had a lot of problems previous years.

[meh]

This year the manu's title it is a bit question of luck also. It was so equal. 5 points! A lot of times you will loose more points with having one puncture. No point for black'n'white dramatize here like Hyundai did it well and Toyota did not.

[Morte66]

(if you sum Sordo, Breen and Loeb you get 91 vs Rovanpera at 80, they got road position advantages though)
...
Only different option for Toyota next year is to change their mind on rotating drivers and get some drivers for the rallies that Rovanpera is still not so good at (slow gravel, maybe tarmac).

Fair point, and I think road position counted for a lot so switching worked. It does seem a reasonable thing to consider, but now that I look at it Hyundai have hired a lot of the obvious people already. Are Mikkelsen/Lappi (with road position, but in an unfamiliar car) so different from Rovanpera who will be in his second year?

E.g. if you could get Sordo for tarmac, sure, but Hyundai has him.

[pantealex]

Fair point, and I think road position counted for a lot so switching worked. It does seem a reasonable thing to consider, but now that I look at it Hyundai have hired a lot of the obvious people already. Are Mikkelsen/Lappi (with road position, but in an unfamiliar car) so different from Rovanpera who will be in his second year?

E.g. if you could get Sordo for tarmac, sure, but Hyundai has him.

Loeb, maybe, maybe not.
Breen if Hyundai doesn´t take him. But this also as risky as EP/Andreas

[mknight]

Fair point, and I think road position counted for a lot so switching worked. It does seem a reasonable thing to consider, but now that I look at it Hyundai have hired a lot of the obvious people already. Are Mikkelsen/Lappi (with road position, but in an unfamiliar car) so different from Rovanpera who will be in his second year?

E.g. if you could get Sordo for tarmac, sure, but Hyundai has him.

Yeah that's the exact problem. Rovanpera will likely improve, but how much? (maybe you can see after a few rallies?)
How about the rallies that he hasn't really done yet? (not being nominated might reduce pressure on him? or piss him off?)

Some drivers "might" be faster than him, especially when they have road position advantage and know the rally. But on early gravel rallies the road position advantage might not be much.
Mid-season rallies the starting position advantage alone could make a good result, but the list of those drivers that are somewhat stable is short, in alphabetical order: Breen, Lappi, Loeb, Mikkelsen, Østberg, (Paddon), Suninen. (not listing Latvala and Meeke as those
3-4 of those are probably enganged elsewhere (Breen, Suninen, Østberg and Paddon), Loeb might not be convinced to come back again, Lappi left Toyota on unfriendly terms and Toyota never seemed to be interested in Mikkelsen (ref. end of 2016) ...so you suddenly are without drivers to pick.

In either case it would mean complete change of team strategy. Then again Tommi is officially leaving.

[dimviii]

In either case it would mean complete change of team strategy. Then again Tommi is officially leaving.

thats the key imho.
Lets see if they change/stick at this startegy.

[meh]

At the moment for me it seems - next year the only enemy for Toyota is... Toyota. All three are fast enough to take points out from each other (from drivers championship perspective), so they need to take more risks to get more points. Or... there will be nr 1 in the team, which could be even more complicated task to pick.

Hyundai - Tänak is getting more seat-time and developing car to own style, Neuville is getting more pressure to have "I have always been better than my team-mates" bla bla which may also mean more risky drives... and more crashes. Can not see 3rd driver (as full-time) driver could be more stable than anyone from Toyota. If there will be Sordo, then with new co-driver.

[seb_sh]

It will be interesting to see how the two different philosophies turn out next season. Toyota has the advantage of stability and investing in drivers, let's see if Hyundai again will play the road order game.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ogier:
OK this season we are not manufacturers’ champions but I feel we kind of are manufacturers’ champions because we have a one-two of Toyota drivers [in the standings] so for me it’s still a bit weird we are not manufacturers’ champions but that’s another story.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/ogier-pays-tribute-to-outgoing-boss-makinen

[AnttiL]

Ogier:
OK this season we are not manufacturers’ champions but I feel we kind of are manufacturers’ champions because we have a one-two of Toyota drivers [in the standings] so for me it’s still a bit weird we are not manufacturers’ champions but that’s another story.

Another interesting little fact is that Neuville got 8 manufacturer points from his 16th position under restart rules. Had that become a retirement, or if two other team cars, like Citroens, would have been in front of him, they would have lost the title.

[mknight]

Ogier:
OK this season we are not manufacturers’ champions but I feel we kind of are manufacturers’ champions because we have a one-two of Toyota drivers [in the standings] so for me it’s still a bit weird we are not manufacturers’ champions but that’s another story.


That can be read both ways:
a) "we two did more than enough (better than Tanak/Neuville) but the third guy didn't
b) "we didn't have good strategy for 3rd car
c) "the rules are bad" (well he can mean that but it's not like he can change them)

Teampoints:
Evans 101
Ogier 98
Rovanpera 37

Neuville 79 (-22 to Evans)
Tanak 79 (-19 to Ogier)
Sordo 40, Loeb 25, Breen 18 = 83 (+46 to Rovanpera)

[AnttiL]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EotpvM4XUAEbEYV?format=jpg&name=medium

https://planetemarcus.com/saison-wrc/

Here's who scored manufacturer points and where. Evans surprisingly wins this league. And you can see how even Sordo alone made more points than Rovanperä, who finished often as the third fastest Toyota.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The laugh is that most people only know/remember the Driver's champion and what car he drove.

Toyota can get good publicity with ads showing Ogier winning in their car, plus with the No.1 on the door next year.

[mknight]

The laugh is that most people only know/remember the Driver's champion and what car he drove.

Toyota can get good publicity with ads showing Ogier winning in their car, plus with the No.1 on the door next year.

Fans sure... but for marketing purposes it's about equal value imo ("WRC Champion 2020", is quite typical sign you see getting thrown around, "Winning car" also works and is used both for driver and manu titles).

For company boards manu is probably more valuable ("we are the best manufacturer").

[Fast Eddie WRC]

TBH I never saw Hyundai make anything of their Manu win last year. Maybe in other markets but not here in the UK.

The typical Hyundai buyer wouldnt care less - they just want cheap and reliable.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

ToyotaUK @ToyotaUK were straight on social.media with this...

Congrats @SebOgier and Julien Ingrassia for winning the @OfficialWRCdrivers’ and co-drivers’ championships in their Yaris WRC on @AciRallyMonza today.

[AnttiL]

TBH I never saw Hyundai make anything of their Manu win last year. Maybe in other markets but not here in the UK.

The typical Hyundai buyer wouldnt care less - they just want cheap and reliable.

Piccadilly Circus

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eosz0VwWEAQTStM?format=jpg&name=medium

[mknight]

Note how the biggest letters say "winner of WRC...".. and the next biggest say "FIA World Rally Champion"... and only in the very smallest ones you have "Manufacturers"

Good illustration of how driver and manufacturer title have similar marketing values towards general public.

[AnttiL]

Basically it's the best result for the sport if different brands win driver and manufacturer titles, that makes two manufacturers happy for a year instead of one :)

[Tarmop]

The laugh is that most people only know/remember the Driver's champion and what car he drove.

Toyota can get good publicity with ads showing Ogier winning in their car, plus with the No.1 on the door next year.


Quite the opposite....
Hardcore fans, fans of speed and cars will remember that Ogier won his 7th title in a Yaris, so their internest in GR Yaris and Supra grows...maybe. They also know that Hyundai has a great range of hothatches and they are world champions. Either way this group doesn`t care about dull Corolla`s and i30 (without the N in its name)

Others ofc also know who Ogier is, but don`t care really and certainly won`t go rushing into the shops and buy Corollas, more likely they know that Hyundai`s drivers are the champions with Hyundai and Shell lubricants...so they go and buy a Tucson maintenanced with Shell lubricants instead of RAV4...or maybe the Toyota dealer gives them a discount and free wintertires and they opt for that.

And then there are also normal people, who don`t give a S... about both, they enjoy the sport and buy what they want.:D

[Sulland]

Who takes over Tommis job?'

What is simmering on the large internet?

[dimviii]

Petter Solberg?

[T16]

Petter Solberg?

I was thinking the same thing, but then would he have the skills to take over where Tommi left off, never mind take it to the next level.
Passion and bravado are one thing, running a team will require a lot more.

[EstWRC]

George Donaldson

[abcrally]

It's not Petter as the new boss is having more recent experience from Toyota than driving with Celica's 25 years ago :)

[Jewy46]

Must be Juho Hanninen or Latvala so? :)

[EstWRC]

Kris Meeke

[AnttiL]

It's not Petter as the new boss is having more recent experience from Toyota than driving with Celica's 25 years ago :)

Jarmo Lehtinen worked as the sporting director back in 2017...

[meh]

Latvala could be... real surprise, if to say it nicely :)
Lindström should be logical, but "The New Boss" must be surprise, so he must be out of that
Hänninen should be my next guess also if "The New Boss" must come from "insiders".

Hopefully we will find out soon...

[meh]

Jarmo Lehtinen worked as the sporting director back in 2017...

Good pick. Poor Teemu then. If he will have a seat for next year anyway...

[TypeR]

Mia? 😅

[dimviii]

It's not Petter as the new boss is having more recent experience from Toyota than driving with Celica's 25 years ago :)

so its George Donaldson.
Excellent pick imho

[dimviii]

Jarno Saari
@SaariJarno
·
1h
Someone has seen Didier Auriol in Jyväskylä yesterday
Face with monocle

[abcrally]

Mia? 😅
Good one 😬😬

[EstWRC]

Colin Clark please

that would be fun, him explaining the things with his hand gestures and excitement, even when a driver goes off or car has a mechanical failure

[cali]

Colin Clark please

that would be fun, him explaining the things with his hand gestures and excitement, even when a driver goes off or car has a mechanical failureHaha that would be tragical actually

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[Jewy46]

Wasnt Kaj Lindstrom originally in the frame for the job also?

[AnttiL]

Wasnt Kaj Lindstrom originally in the frame for the job also?

It's been also mentioned he would be better for the team in his current position

[TypeR]

are Ogier and Auriol good friends..?

khm, khm.. team orders :D

[pantealex]

Latvala could be... real surprise, if to say it nicely :)
Lindström should be logical, but "The New Boss" must be surprise, so he must be out of that
Hänninen should be my next guess also if "The New Boss" must come from "insiders".

Hopefully we will find out soon...

Miikka Anttila would be my choice out of those TGR insiders.

[bluuford]

If I think about everyone in Toyota team i know... Kaj has very important job and I do not see replacement for him there, so, he must stay where he is... The best would be Norio, the one and the only Norio :)

[wyler]

can it be...no one?

I read on italian media a quote by Makinen saying "Toyota already has a complete hierarchy without adding people."