FIA: 2019 Rally Ladder Revamp

[Sulland]

Is this a good idea?
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130841/fia-planning-major-revamp-of-wrc-ladder

[macebig]

It's not bad. Something cheaper than the R2s will be helpful. I think cost should be capped at 15000€ for the R2 National cars. And then it is of utmost urgency to pump R3s and R4s (or a new category) that could act as an in between the R2 and R5.

[Franky]

For me the headline is misleading. They want to set up a talent promoting system through all the levels. I don't mind it but using lesser cars than R2?

[seb_sh]

The title is sensationalist, it's hardly a revamp, they're just talking about something similar to R2 but cheaper and connecting national championships with regional and then world levels. It's vague, they're just thinking about how to do it but I think the principle is good, we'll see what actually happens.

[Simmi]

Precious little detail in there. Is there some sort of money tree that we don't know about?

If there could be some underlying challenge running across multiple championships that seems decent. But 'R2 light' is setting the bar too low in my opinion. The existing class structure in rallying seems fine to me? There also seems to be a fairly well defined route upwards - but just like in single seaters, you need some money or backing to progress.

The really good drivers aren't falling flat on their faces competition-wise when stepping up. Look at Suninen for example through R2 / S2000-R5 / WRC.

Dmack don't get enough praise for what they do in the sport. One positive step would be to try and mandate that R5 manufacturers have some kind of junior programme/opportunity. But quite a few seem to be doing that anyway.

National/dealer teams (Skoda UK, M-Sport FFSA, Peugeot Belgium etc) are the holy grail for me, especially if they can run an R2 and an R5.

[Mirek]

I personally see no reason to introduce anything new except maybe more support for national ASNs to send young drivers in JERC or/and JWRC (many already do that or recently started). That's a really good starter for me.

Also - do You think that there is not enough young drivers in WRC and that they don't have enough chances? I don't.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Talent will normally get you there without the need for an official 'ladder'.

And I dont like the idea of an 'end of year shoot-out' either.

[GravelBen]

Talent will normally get you there without the need for an official 'ladder'.

Seems much easier for drivers from Europe than for drivers from anywhere else in the world to get the opportunities, so it wouldn't hurt to try and improve that if possible.

Suggesting R2 cars for national championships is is just plain stupid though.

[Daviesalaam]

its Look like Good Plan for the Europeans Drivers...what about the rest ???

[OldF]

Why invent the wheel again when the R1 class already exist. They are not so cheap either but it’s never cheap to drive rallies.

Price of the Ford Fiesta R1 kit is 7 500 £ (about 8 500 €). In addition to the kit a donor car is needed and assembling of the kit, roll-cage etc.
http://www.m-sport.co.uk/images/R1_Sales_Document_update2014.pdf

Price of the Citroen DS3 R1 kit is 10 500 €.
http://boutique.citroenracing.com/cms/web/upload/documentation/621/57d16733d7068.pdf

[Simmi]

Suggesting R2 cars for national championships is is just plain stupid though.

Like I said in the BRC thread, Mahonen should think twice about speaking to journalists with a half-baked plan. Lots of things start to get reported as fact, like the idea the FIA want R2 as the leading class for all national championships.

Is that what Mahonen actually said, or how he meant it? It's not really clear - but that's out there now.

[Rally Power]

Like I said in the BRC thread, Mahonen should think twice about speaking to journalists with a half-baked plan. Lots of things start to get reported as fact, like the idea the FIA want R2 as the leading class for all national championships.

Is that what Mahonen actually said, or how he meant it? It's not really clear - but that's out there now.

Autosport article is confusing; I believe Mahonen was defending the use of a less expensive R2 junior category (a sort of R2 light, like the Fiesta used at the French Junior Championship) in national series, not the promotion of R2 as top national rally category.

Honestly, all ideas to revamp the junior series are welcomed but there’s a bigger picture FIA is missing for a long time: homologated cars (from R1 to R5) are few and expensive, as they're mainly developed by official tuners. We really need a more flexible homologation system to allow private tuners to supply a wider and cheaper range of rally cars, like we used to have in the 80’s and 90’s.

[AnttiL]

Honestly, all ideas to revamp the junior series are welcomed but there’s a bigger picture FIA is missing for a long time: homologated cars (from R1 to R5) are few and expensive, as they're mainly developed by official tuners. We really need a more flexible homologation system to allow private tuners to supply a wider and cheaper range of rally cars, like we used to have in the 80’s and 90’s.

There's two sides to that: if we would have more freedom in developing the cars then the guys with bigger wallet would win the races with faster cars, whereas now it's more even.

I like the current system with WRC cars for the WRC series, R5 cars for WRC2 and national series, but I'm not sure what should be below that...

[steve.mandzij]

The WRC support categories need a revamp. I don't even know why WRC3 still exists. It's useless.

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[Rally Power]

There's two sides to that: if we would have more freedom in developing the cars then the guys with bigger wallet would win the races with faster cars, whereas now it's more even.

You got it wrong mate. I'm talking about freedom of homologation procedures, which nowadays are mainly oriented to manus interests. Gr.N/A rules forced manus to allow private tuners to prepare almost any of their cars; in result we had a vast range of homologated models and we could have them prepared at affordable prices by any local rally tuner.

Nowadays we have only a handful of models at each class of Gr. R, provided (at very expensive prices) by the manus official tuners or rally departments. IMO, that’s not the best way to make the sport more accessible and popular.

Btw, you can get an idea of the large number of homologated cars available for rally in the 80’s and 90’s here http://historicdb.fia.com/cars/list (just choose between Gr.A or N and insert a year).

[Mk2 RS2000]

You got it wrong mate. I'm talking about freedom of homologation procedures, which nowadays are mainly oriented to manus interests. Gr.N/A rules forced manus to allow private tuners to prepare almost any of their cars; in result we had a vast range of homologated models and we could have them prepared at affordable prices by any local rally tuner.

.

Spot on. Up until the demise of Gp N & A anyone could build their own car up to the same homologated specification as the factory team cars.

[janvanvurpa]

You got it wrong mate. I'm talking about freedom of homologation procedures, which nowadays are mainly oriented to manus interests. Gr.N/A rules forced manus to allow private tuners to prepare almost any of their cars; in result we had a vast range of homologated models and we could have them prepared at affordable prices by any local rally tuner.

Nowadays we have only a handful of models at each class of Gr. R, provided (at very expensive prices) by the manus official tuners or rally departments. IMO, that’s not the best way to make the sport more accessible and popular.
.
But it is a great way for Dave Richards/Prodrive, malcom Wilson/M-sport etc to make lots of millions of Pounds Sterling...

Somebody had said something about "but then rich guys can simply buy all the best stuff and" I guess presumably win-win-win...

Well truth is in car competition its always been that way...

But it least on loose surfaces, gravel and snow, that wasn't an assurance of victory

But at least a person COULD put together a damn near top spec car...no rule prevented anybody from having one...
The currrent thing that only Factory drivers get the car with bigger restrictor, and more aero, that's is so stupid that I can't think of an equivalent metaphor...

Maybe if it was 1500m foot race the rule says ""last years winner gets a 400m head start, and ll you guys who entered yourselves must wear 5kg lead weights on you ankles."

Or if it was shooting with rifles "last years top 6 get new rifles with excellent 4x scope and the target is closer, the rest get old muskets with less than any sights, and target 300m further away...let the best man win"

It would be seen as a farce.

[AnttiL]

Spot on. Up until the demise of Gp N & A anyone could build their own car up to the same homologated specification as the factory team cars.

I just remember the national home built group A cars from the 90's that were for the most part competing with factory bought group N cars

[pantealex]

I just remember the national home built group A cars from the 90's that were for the most part competing with factory bought group N cars

Same.

And all those great 2wd F2 cars were factory built...

Home built n-cars were competitive but very boring to watch (corolla gt, kadett/astra, integra)

[OldF]

Homologated parts were used also during the group A era but it was for sure easier for a privateer to have an almost factory level car. The parts that needed homologation was mainly transmission, suspension, brake and steering parts. All the engine related parts were either free or original. Dampers and springs were also free. Also the basic cars were also “half way” made rally cars.

The FIA’s historic database is very nice.

Toyota Celica ST-205
http://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/car_attachment/1486676401/homologation_form_number_5521_group_a.pdf

Ford Escort RS Cosworth
http://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/car_attachment/1486711501/homologation_form_number_5466_group_a.pdf

On pages 124 – 142 are parts homologated for the world rally car.

[tomhlord]

Very interesting debate on the latest Absolute Rally podcast about this FYI.

Of course, nothing is set in stone, far from it. Mahonen needs to lock it down before speaking, perhaps.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

What I dont really get is which WRC team would get the best young driver(s) that reach that next step on the ladder.

They are run by a manufacturer or private company, so they wont like having a new driver imposed on them. And which driver goes where ? Would the best go to the best team or the worst performing team ?

I foresee this all causing too many issues.

[janvanvurpa]

Homologated parts were used also during the group A era but it was for sure easier for a privateer to have an almost factory level car. The parts that needed homologation was mainly transmission, suspension, brake and steering parts. All the engine related parts were either free or original. Dampers and springs were also free. Also the basic cars were also “half way” made rally cars.

The FIA’s historic database is very nice.

Toyota Celica ST-205
http://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/car_attachment/1486676401/homologation_form_number_5521_group_a.pdf

Ford Escort RS Cosworth
http://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/car_attachment/1486711501/homologation_form_number_5466_group_a.pdf

On pages 124 – 142 are parts homologated for the world rally car.

Old F, i will give you a big wet kiss when we meet one day. Thank you for those homologation papers.
They will get printed and added to Saab V4 Group 1, Gp2, Gp4, Group A and Ford Capri Group A, and Opel Kadett E GSI...always great reading...

[Simmi]

What I dont really get is which WRC team would get the best young driver(s) that reach that next step on the ladder.

They are run by a manufacturer or private company, so they wont like having a new driver imposed on them. And which driver goes where ? Would the best go to the best team or the worst performing team ?

I foresee this all causing too many issues.

I didn't read anything about drivers being forced into factory WRC teams at the end of it? I guess all you can do is get the talented drivers to the table. Someone still needs to then offer them a seat. Same as in F1, or the NFL.

If the FIA is serious about young driver progression then they should adopt the idea I and a few others have had, where you reserve that third WRC car for drivers either under a certain age, or (my preference) with a limited amount of WRC car drives. Then the manufacturers simply have to offer opportunities to young drivers and it's in their interest to develop them prior to that.

Then after a couple of seasons that young driver could be moved into one of the other two seats, and it's time for a new guy to get a chance. If manufacturers don't want to risk this young driver for manufacturer points then they can just enter a fourth car for the Sordo's of this world if they really want.

[Rallyper]

Old F, i will give you a big wet kiss when we meet one day. Thank you for those homologation papers.
They will get printed and added to Saab V4 Group 1, Gp2, Gp4, Group A and Ford Capri Group A, and Opel Kadett E GSI...always great reading...

Hörru Janne! It´s about time for you to come to the mysterious nordic. No need for wet kisses.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I didn't read anything about drivers being forced into factory WRC teams at the end of it? I guess all you can do is get the talented drivers to the table. Someone still needs to then offer them a seat. Same as in F1, or the NFL.

If the FIA is serious about young driver progression then they should adopt the idea I and a few others have had, where you reserve that third WRC car for drivers either under a certain age, or (my preference) with a limited amount of WRC car drives. Then the manufacturers simply have to offer opportunities to young drivers and it's in their interest to develop them prior to that.

Then after a couple of seasons that young driver could be moved into one of the other two seats, and it's time for a new guy to get a chance. If manufacturers don't want to risk this young driver for manufacturer points then they can just enter a fourth car for the Sordo's of this world if they really want.

I was just taking the 'ladder' to it's logical conclusion.

But your theory sounds like a good idea and quite similar to what we have seen recently anyway.

[PLuto]

Jarmo Mahonen is absolutely out of reality, like lot of other people at FIA. They are not able to provide regulations and system of homologations for rallysport which should be useful. To build/homologate new car is very expensive, thats why we have not so many new cars. Since Opel Adam there is no new R2 car because FIA is not able to provide what will be future of R2 cars. R3 category was "killed" by promoting R3T, because turbo cars are more expensive than classic atmospheric R3 cars for run. And now that stupidity with R4 kit, which is as base idea not so bad, but it was destroyed from the beginning of the project.

[Mirek]

Sorry Pluto but You are wrong at one thing. The regulations MUST go with turbo cars because there are nearly no naturally aspirated engines left in stock production. For example neither VAG, nor PSA nor Ford has naturally aspirated 1.6 engine anymore!

[PLuto]

I know. But turbo 2WD cars (especially R2T) are boring to watch and also to drive. But main problem is that FIA is still not able to make regulations for future. Thats the main reason why there are no new R2 cars...

[Mirek]

So I'm asking again. Why shall the regulations push for engines which nobody produces anymore?

You can't ignore the reality of today. Naturally aspirated engines are dead, nothing but past. The rules have to follow because FIA is not who changes the general direction of the automotive market.

[PLuto]

Read what I wrote. That "turbo 2WD issue" was only my opinion as spectator. Bigger problem is that FIA didnt showed what regulations will be for close future. Thats why some manufacturers, which were/are ready to start R2 project, are not working on it...

[pantealex]

You are both right.

Current R2T is boring to watch and Non Turbo production cars are dead.
And FIA are very slow.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

ERC U28 champion to win WRC drive:

https://www.fiaerc.com/griebel-to-fly-erc-junior-flag-in-world-championship/

[Simmi]

This is great news if it happens and touches on some of the things we talked about.

A Hyundai young driver scheme - https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/news/rallying-news/wrc/brits-in-frame-for-new-hyundai-wrc-scheme/

[Daviesalaam]

This is great news if it happens and touches on some of the things we talked about.

A Hyundai young driver scheme - https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/news/rallying-news/wrc/brits-in-frame-for-new-hyundai-wrc-scheme/
No criteria was used to select the 1st 16 drivers. The criteria for shortlisting final 8 drivers is unknown. They will end up with another Lefebvre.
Better if they had use Driving Scheme program..

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[Sulland]

I agree that R1 is too weak enginewise, and R2 is too expensive for a youngster.

Time to try to be concrete, on how a new class should look like.
What way will then be the best way to develop the new car;
1. Make a limit of 160 hp on the wheels of a R1+. Up to manufacturer to use 1600 NA or 1000 Turbo engine
2. Make a R2- cheaper by making it simpler.

Basic rules:
Maximum 20 000 € for complete car, ready to race. Max 4000 € for the alternative suspension (gravel or asphalt)
Possible to buy kit from manufacturer to build it youself.
Tuners can build a car, no need for manufacturer homologation, as long as safety is approved by rules set by FIA.
Minimum age: 16 years

Ok guys, kill it - but you need to come with your own suggestion for a new class :D

[Sulland]

RALLY PYRAMID - THE TIERS 2020

Rally 1: The very top of the pyramid. It’s where we’ll find the current generation World Rally Cars which headline the World Rally Championship. Not for sale.
Rally 2: The sport's second tier, catering for R5 machinery past, present and future like the Skoda Fabia, Ford Fiesta and Hyundai i20. Aprox 250 000 Euro.
R4 kit cars: aprox 150 000 Euro.
Rally 3: A new low-cost four-wheel drive solution costing less than €100,000. Basically, this will be a 200bhp R2 car with a rear differential.
Rally 4: Current R2 cars, such as those driven by Junior WRC contenders. Aprox 60 000 Euro.
Rally 5: The wide base is designed for entry-level R1 cars, like M-Sport’s turbocharged one-litre Ford Fiesta R1 delivering around 150bhp. Non-turbo cars can run up to 1400cc. A sequential gearbox and improved suspension are the other highlights. Aprox 30-45 000 Euro. Depends how much work you can do yourself.

Lets see if new Rally 5 and Rally 3 will be hits in national markets! Also if R4 Kit cars will take their role in 2020.