WRC 2017 Mechanical Issues and Failures

[GigiGalliNo1]

Hello all!

I'd like to keep a thread on Mechanical Issues and Failures from Round 1 to Round 13 this year to see what comes up with each manufacture that have produced the new 2017 cars. As we see, so far in four rounds we've got four different makes of car winning rallies.

And... go!

(Starting with Monte)

Toyota:
Citroen:
M-Sport Ford:
Hyundai:

[Sulland]

Do the Fiesta have 1 and only one hydraulic system, or are the gear, centre diff and brakes and other things that uses hyd oil in separate systems?

Basically, have they put all eggs in one basket?

[stefanvv]

Do the Fiesta have 1 and only one hydraulic system, or are the gear, centre diff and brakes and other things that uses hyd oil in separate systems?

Basically, have they put all eggs in one basket?

I don't think their problems affected brakes, they should be on separate circuit solely.

[br21]

It was always like that - hydraulic circuit was one - responsible for diff, paddle shift, sometimes power steering, etc.
Brakes always separate system.

[nafpaktos]

and handbrake i suppose

[dimviii]

handbrake is not at the same system as center diff/paddle shift.
its hydraulic but separate system

[Simmi]

Did we ever find out what Meeke's issue was on Saturday on the Monte? The one that meant he was running way down the order. Tanak's engine went sick and dropped a cylinder. I think that was it for round 1?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Its tricky to list such failures accurately as teams dont reveal everything, and also some issues were event specific.. ie. cooling in Mexico.

Plus I dont think its fair to treat MSport like the factory teams as they dont have the same support/ budget.

[Coach 2]

handbrake is not at the same system as center diff/paddle shift.
its hydraulic but separate system

Ogier says, quote: "But then when I took the narrow roads and found some hairpins I realised that this electronic problem we had was not only the boost, but also the central diff was locked and that means we had no handbrake for the hairpins so we struggled quite a lot".

[dimviii]

Ogier says, quote: "But then when I took the narrow roads and found some hairpins I realised that this electronic problem we had was not only the boost, but also the central diff was locked and that means we had no handbrake for the hairpins so we struggled quite a lot".

yes he is right. When there are some kind of problems with center diff,its locking,and when locking you cant use the handbrake.
Normally when you apply the handbrake,there is a device that make instantly free the center diff, to don't stress the mechanical components of center diff,and make the car turn easier at a U turn ie. When the diff is locked that device cant work,so you don't have effective handbrake.
That's the ''connection'' between handbrake and center diff is refering Ogier.
The hydraulic part of handbrake is totally different from the high pressure hydraulic circuit for center diff ,gear change.

[swanny]

Toyota's biggest mechanical failures seem to come from trees and bridges...

[bluuford]

Toyota: Overheating in Mexico
Hyndai: Powersteering for Sordo in Monte, and it seems hydraulic problems for Paddon in Corsica, They also had kind of problems in Mexico
Ford: Hydraulics in Corsica and engine for Evans in Mexico and electric related problems in Corsica

[AMSS]

Toyota: Overheating in Mexico
Hyndai: Powersteering for Sordo in Monte, and it seems hydraulic problems for Paddon in Corsica, They also had kind of problems in Mexico
Ford: Hydraulics in Corsica and engine for Evans in Mexico and electric related problems in Corsica

Ford also electrical problem in Monte (spark coil Tanak) and Evans had some issues in Sweden as well can`t remember what though..

[GravelBen]

Hyndai: Powersteering for Sordo in Monte, and it seems hydraulic problems for Paddon in Corsica, They also had kind of problems in Mexico


Power steering failed for Paddon in Sweden too didn't it?

[BigWorm]

Power steering failed for Paddon in Sweden too didn't it?

Yes, day 2

[Fast Eddie WRC]

What about Meeke's engine... see, we dont have the info why it happened...

Pointless thread.

[SubaruNorway]

Ford also electrical problem in Monte (spark coil Tanak) and Evans had some issues in Sweden as well can`t remember what though..

Injector issue for both Tanak in MC and Evans in Sweden on first run of Likenäs

[mknight]

Meeke in Monte on day 2 was supposedly ignition-related. Fixed by changing ECU I think, cost him 4-5 mins.

Also forgot about all the powersteering issues for Hyundai. In Mexico they first had problems with overheating engine (like everyone except Citroen), then on the superspecial all cars stopped because of fuel-injection related issues.

The thread starter should just edit his first post adding the stuff up.

[OldF]

Does anyone know the mechanical construction of the centre diff? By the comments from Ogier the Ford is rear wheel drive without hydraulic pressure.

https://www.ewrc-results.com/driver_info.php?e=36015&s=133167&d=1414333&t=Che-Guevara-Energy-Drink-Tour-de-Corse-2017


SS8 Novella 2: "At the end of SS7 we lost hydraulic pressure. The target was to finish the day and be back at the service. We don't have any diff, no gear shifting and we're a proper rear-wheel-drive car. It behaved quite strangely!"

On SS9 Antisanti – Poggio di Nazza he had electrical problem and the centre diff was locked which mean he had hydraulic pressure. Looks like the electric control system was an on/off system on SS8 and SS9.

[Rallyper]

There was talking about spare cars in another topic (Mikkelsen).

How many cars, bodyshells, engines etz are teams allowed to use during one season in WRC? Without being punished that is.

[bluuford]

Does anyone know the mechanical construction of the centre diff? By the comments from Ogier the Ford is rear wheel drive without hydraulic pressure.

https://www.ewrc-results.com/driver_info.php?e=36015&s=133167&d=1414333&t=Che-Guevara-Energy-Drink-Tour-de-Corse-2017




On SS9 Antisanti – Poggio di Nazza he had electrical problem and the centre diff was locked which mean he had hydraulic pressure. Looks like the electric control system was an on/off system on SS8 and SS9.
Ss8, It was still 4WD but felt like RWD with manual shifting and no central diff
SS8 was the loss of hydraulic pressure, which is related to some kind of leak. SS9 was related to electrics on/off and most probably related to some damaged/faulty wire

[OldF]

The loss of hydraulic pressure could also be caused by an electrical problem. Hydraulic pump not working, the control output from ECU not working, wiring etc. etc. I remember read somewhere that they replaced the ECU which solved the problem.

[sonnybobiche]

There was talking about spare cars in another topic (Mikkelsen).

How many cars, bodyshells, engines etz are teams allowed to use during one season in WRC? Without being punished that is.

Three chassis per driver for the year. Not sure about engines.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Portugal 2017 -

Citroen with some poor dampers, Hyundai with electrical & PAS issues (Paddon) & Toyota with fuel pressure issue (Hanninen) ...

but nothing on the M-Sport cars. :cool:

[wrc2017]

It appears citroen have transmission issues in loose surfaces.. with problem with tyre wear. Something about the torque split they have homolgated? Maybe someone with more knowledge understands this. Meeke led and Breen close on Day1.. Day2 they both dropped over 1min to Ogier. It doesnt look good for PSA group for Sardinia if thats the case.

[steve.mandzij]

Portugal 2017 -

Citroen with some poor dampers, Hyundai with electrical & PAS issues (Paddon) & Toyota with fuel pressure issue (Hanninen) ...

but nothing on the M-Sport cars. :cool:
I enjoy the fact that you're enjoying M-Sport's problem free weekend :)

The event has been relatively problem free for everyone though. As for Toyota, the only problem was Hanninen's fuel injector issue. No overheating engine, no loss of brake power, nothing. Good progress by the sick dogs of the village team! :p

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[Fast Eddie WRC]

I enjoy the fact that you're enjoying M-Sport's problem free weekend :)

The event has been relatively problem free for everyone though. As for Toyota, the only problem was Hanninen's fuel injector issue. No overheating engine, no loss of brake power, nothing. Good progress by the sick dogs of the village team! :p

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Oh well done the €millions spending factory team... still having more issues than the poor little private one. ;)

[electroliquid]

Maybe M-Sport is little team, and maybe poor, but they build cars for customers also, and by doing that, they get much more data from tests and rallies than factory teams, so it's easier to indicate weak points, and fix issues..

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Maybe M-Sport is little team, and maybe poor, but they build cars for customers also, and by doing that, they get much more data from tests and rallies than factory teams, so it's easier to indicate weak points, and fix issues..

They sold only two 2017 cars and only run one of them (Bertelli's) and he hasnt competed much anyway.

[electroliquid]

So M-Sport doesn't get data from Ostberg's car's test and rallies? Or they jut sold car and that's all - do whatever you want?
OK, it's not main factor, but could effect reliability a bit...

[jparker]

Portugal 2017 -

Citroen with some poor dampers, Hyundai with electrical & PAS issues (Paddon) & Toyota with fuel pressure issue (Hanninen) ...

but nothing on the M-Sport cars. :cool:

Just lucky exception this time I guess. You have to wait for few more events before getting too excited. I guess soon the Fords will be back to "normal".

[adr17]

They sold only two 2017 cars and only run one of them (Bertelli's) and he hasnt competed much anyway.

only 1 bertelli was hiring the 2017 car from msport

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Just lucky exception this time I guess. You have to wait for few more events before getting too excited. I guess soon the Fords will be back to "normal".

Get back under your bridge.

[sonnybobiche]

How hard is it to buy a reliable power steering rack?

[Mirek]

There are usually very high forces in the steering of WRC (S2000, R5) cars. Way higher than of stock cars. The main reason is that the cars have usually much bigger castor mostly due to the angled dampers (those are angled to allow large travel). With big castor steering means not only rotating the wheels but also lifting the car, i.e. the forces grow hugely with every degree of castor angle. I believe the issues with power steering were among the main reason why Škoda came with that strange strut design which is used on Fabia R5 and which was later copied in asphalt spec. C3 WRC and i20 R5 (not the case of WRC though).

[AnttiL]

Latvala tells in a Finnish interview http://www.sportti.com/uutinen.asp?CAT=1-2&ID=343465 about the Poland retirement:


Kaasupolkimen alle oli joutunut väärä esine. Yritin sitä kytkimellä korjata, mutta se sitten suli, koska ei kestänyt moottorin korkeita kierroksia.

Which translates to "a wrong object had gotten its way below the throttle pedal. I tried to fix it with the clutch but it burnt because it couldn't handle the high engine revs"

So after all it was a human error rather than a pure technical failure. Possibly the tool kit under the pedals like Lefebvre on the last day?

[steve.mandzij]

Latvala tells in a Finnish interview http://www.sportti.com/uutinen.asp?CAT=1-2&ID=343465 about the Poland retirement:



Which translates to "a wrong object had gotten its way below the throttle pedal. I tried to fix it with the clutch but it burnt because it couldn't handle the high engine revs"

So after all it was a human error rather than a pure technical failure. Possibly the tool kit under the pedals like Lefebvre on the last day?Huh. I'm not very informed, so how does the clutch get burned in that situation? In fact, how does a clutch work?

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[AnttiL]

Huh. I'm not very informed, so how does the clutch get burned in that situation?

By "slipping the clutch", pressing it halfway

[sonnybobiche]

The idea is basically that an engine can't work at 0 RPM. It doesn't provide any torque--it stalls. But most of the time the engine revs is directly related to the rotation of the wheels (via the gear ratio: higher gears = more wheel rotation per engine rotation. Usually in a road car, 4th gear is 1:1 and 5th gear is what used to be called 'overdrive', so you got more than one rotation of the wheels per turn of the crankshaft). Anyway, the fact that an engine can't provide any torque from 0 RPM (unlike an electric motor) means that you need a way of partially connecting the engine to the wheels when the wheels are just starting to turn (at the start of the stage). Hence the clutch. It is made out of the same material as brakes (but thinner, because it doesn't need to do a whole lot after the start of the stage), and it allows 'slip' in the drivetrain so that the engine can rev at high rpm and provide torque to wheels that are not moving. When the clutch pedal is pressed, the clutch slips along the surface of the flywheel (which is connected directly to the engine). When the clutch pedal is released, the clutch itself is pressed hard against the flywheel and does not slip.

Of course the heavier the clutch is, the harder it is to rotate it, so you'd want to make it just heavy enough to last through all the day's stage starts, maybe even just enough to last till the next service. But that generally means it's not strong enough to survive slipping against high revs for a long time. It just gets burned out, like if you were holding down the brakes while driving forward. The friction from the slippage generates too much heat for the material and it breaks down.

[AnttiL]

Updates for this thread? Latvala's ECU broke in Finland, Latvala had a Misfire in Germany, Latvala had no handbrake on the TV Stage in Germany, Meeke's water pump failed in Germany