74th PZM Rally Poland

[dimviii]

Does anybody know what technical problems had Latvala?

they didn't said what problem was at Toyota press release.

[onemanband]

Great rally from the sporting perspective with many close battles and excitement all the way through. Poor Tänak to suffer from the polish syndrome 2nd year in a row.

Horrible rally from a safety perspective. Even the south european and south/north american rounds look safe and well managed in comparison. I'd be surprised to see it back on the calendar. With all the rally enthusiasm there is in Poland, you'd expect the marshals wanting to do a good job as to keep the round in the WRC but you get the sense they couldn't care less about the task that was given them.

I think basically 70% of the marshals had good viewing points chosen out beforehand and left their jobs as soon as the stage begun.

[dimviii]

https://www.ewrc.cz/images/2017/photos/orlen_rally_poland_2017/lum_30967.jpg
https://www.ewrc.cz/images/2017/photos/orlen_rally_poland_2017/lum_06366.jpg
https://www.ewrc.cz/images/2017/photos/orlen_rally_poland_2017/lum_08740.jpg

https://www.ewrc.cz/foto/36431-orlen-rally-poland-2017/205/

[stefanvv]

He was, but from the onboard it seemed like trying to avoid a watersplash, he did but the speed was too high already.I just watched Neuville onboard from SS21 when sees this corner 20 m ahead his reaction is "Ou la-la".

[itix]

I think basically 70% of the marshals had good viewing points chosen out beforehand and left their jobs as soon as the stage begun.
The guy with the fire truck was epic... "Oh, here comes a fire truck when the stage is running, I'll just wave my hand a little... He didn't stop... Oh whatever"

[bluuford]

agreed, i think without the watersplash he would have gotten away

better quality https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJT_N37YssE

If you look at the entry into the watersplash, you can see that one part of front left aeradynamics is badly hanging off. I am just wondering how much such thing affects handling into such a fast corner?

[itix]

I still expected Tidemand to win here.
Me too. Either Vieby is quick or Tidemand is slow.

[SubaruNorway]

Does anybody know what technical problems had Latvala?

Seemed like the throttle stuck on braking into the junction and then something in the transmission broke when he released the clutch on the rev limiter to try and stall it

[steve.mandzij]

Me too. Either Vieby is quick or Tidemand is slow.
Is Tidemand actually good? Even though he's won four events he's never faced too stiff of a competition. With Veiby now beating him and Mikkelsen having nearly won in Portugal I slightly doubt how good he really is.

Also, moving on to JWRC, how good is Solans really? Hats off to him for winning all events so far, but could it be that his competition isn't very stiff at all?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[mknight]

I am still puzzled by the starting order for PS (Breen-Hanninen-Mikkelsen-Latvala(rally2)-Evans). Double-checking in Portugal it was (Paddon (rally2) - Meeke (rally 2) - Al Quasimi - Lefebvre ... ).

Just can't find any explanation and nobody seems to care. Latvala jumped Tanak in the standings due to the powerstage win. I'd say he probably wouldn't be able to win it from first place on the road.

If his starting position was correct, then why was it different in Portugal.

[steve.mandzij]

I am still puzzled by the starting order for PS (Breen-Hanninen-Mikkelsen-Latvala(rally2)-Evans). Double-checking in Portugal it was (Paddon (rally2) - Meeke (rally 2) - Al Quasimi - Lefebvre ... ).

Just can't find any explanation and nobody seems to care. Latvala jumped Tanak in the standings due to the powerstage win. I'd say he probably wouldn't be able to win it from first place on the road.

If his starting position was correct, then why was it different in Portugal.
I don't see the mistake?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[PLuto]

I am still puzzled by the starting order for PS (Breen-Hanninen-Mikkelsen-Latvala(rally2)-Evans). Double-checking in Portugal it was (Paddon (rally2) - Meeke (rally 2) - Al Quasimi - Lefebvre ... ).

Just can't find any explanation and nobody seems to care. Latvala jumped Tanak in the standings due to the powerstage win. I'd say he probably wouldn't be able to win it from first place on the road.

If his starting position was correct, then why was it different in Portugal.

There is no rule for power stage starting order. Everything is on promoter.

[itix]

Is Tidemand actually good? Even though he's won four events he's never faced too stiff of a competition. With Veiby now beating him and Mikkelsen having nearly won in Portugal I slightly doubt how good he really is.

Also, moving on to JWRC, how good is Solans really? Hats off to him for winning all events so far, but could it be that his competition isn't very stiff at all?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Well he isn't slow by wrc2 standards. He is beaten on individual events by some drivers like for instance Kopecky and Mikkelsen but he is consistently faster than Camili who competed in the WRC. He is very consistent, Finland last year being an exception.

These things are also hard to tell because Kopecky is a tarmac specialist and a pretty good gravel driver, Mikkelsen is definitely a world class driver and the national round he did in Cz there were many national drivers with experience of the conditions and the event.

In my opinion he has at best the chance to become another Sordo. One who bags points for the team but never really does anything heroic. At worst, another back of the pack finisher at every event.

...But you never know with these kind of things. No one really expected Breen to be quick.

[noel157]

Rallying is firstly about finishing, secondly about speed.

Straight out of the Mathew Wilson School of Rallying handbook. Much prefer Ott Tanak's philosophy - "To win you have to drive hard".
I'm with Ott.

[GravelBen]

I always remember the old saying... to finish first, first you have to finish.

Being Finnish often seems to help too.

[EstWRC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eYJQSKHGVA

this one is with very good places
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W1xleHtU2U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX_0510I48g

[A FONDO]

I just watched Neuville onboard from SS21 when sees this corner 20 m ahead his reaction is "Ou la-la".

Where you watched it?

[Munkvy]

Interesting that Ogier can behave like this and only get a fine:

http://www.rajdpolski.pl/pliki/zawodnicy/2017/tab/stewards_decision_no_2.pdf

Didn't people also mention him speeding between stages at some point?

[Mintexmemory]

...But you never know with these kind of things. No one really expected Breen to be quick.

Wrong, Breen's win in the Academy followed by his S2000 WRC championship showed he had speed. I and many Irish and British fans could see how good he is. The 208 year gave some people the wrong impression. However if you had seen Breen live then it was always clear he was quick.
I remember some people saying the same about Paddon and Tanak 3 years ago.

[Priorat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIBaRYuJTV8

[noel157]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIBaRYuJTV8

Fantastic rally action, seriously poor spectator control, the worst I've ever seen on any rally. And dancing and jumping about on the stage, guess they were excited.......the last Rally Poland I suspect.

[ziggysony]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_K4Uls9IVc
The full video from WRC Poland 2017 Day1,2&3
Watch the drivers pushing the cars to the limit :-)

[itix]

Wrong, Breen's win in the Academy followed by his S2000 WRC championship showed he had speed. I and many Irish and British fans could see how good he is. The 208 year gave some people the wrong impression. However if you had seen Breen live then it was always clear he was quick.
I remember some people saying the same about Paddon and Tanak 3 years ago.
All right, fair points but he did struggle quite a bit in both S-WRC, the IRC and the ERC. He won some events but mostly second places or lower. The years in the troublesome 208 didn't really help either.

He did two appearances in the WRC as well and the one where he managed to compete (Sweden, don't remember year) he didn't do super great.

[Simmi]

Interesting that Ogier can behave like this and only get a fine:

http://www.rajdpolski.pl/pliki/zawodnicy/2017/tab/stewards_decision_no_2.pdf

Didn't people also mention him speeding between stages at some point?

I'd wager anyone who has done a few rallies driving around knows what it is like to be dive-bombed by a rally car. It's happened to me in at least three countries that I can remember. The wrong way around a roundabout is bad though - he's not driving an ambulance.

[dimviii]

wet surface didn't allow new record

http://planetemarcus.com/record-de-vitesse-non-battu-au-wrc-pologne-2017/

[dimviii]

Opens&Tightens‏*@OpensTightens
#MemoryMonday to 1991 #WRC @AcropolisRally feat. #Fiorio #Pirollo
Nowadays rear wings fall down for themselves...
@MSportLtd @OttTanak


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDz6qG4WsAIfrbi.jpg

[dimviii]

watch out guys

Hayden Paddon‏*@HaydenPaddon
So it's official - @berlinairport Tegel is the worse airport in the world. 100% success ratio of lost baggage - 4/4 in 6 months

[Marcco]

Opens&Tightens‏*@OpensTightens
#MemoryMonday to 1991 #WRC @AcropolisRally feat. #Fiorio #Pirollo
Nowadays rear wings fall down for themselves...
@MSportLtd @OttTanak


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDz6qG4WsAIfrbi.jpg

Haha! Good-one :) Although nowadays rear wing probably makes more kg of downforce than this dude :)

[dimviii]

nice video as always from Methka
https://youtu.be/PeNEyeEMWlk

[CoyoteVillagra]

http://i.imgur.com/eLozNlQ.jpg



http://i.imgur.com/3eOM2cj.jpg

[AnttiL]

wet surface didn't allow new record

http://planetemarcus.com/record-de-vitesse-non-battu-au-wrc-pologne-2017/

Or more chicanes.

[bearclaw]

I don’t know if this was already discussed here in the forum. is it allowed to warn crews via radio before their start into the stage or maybe before the start time control about road conditions or tricky places?

tänaks out was at the same place where mikkelsen had problems. sordo also said something about slippery places in the narrow wood section at the stage end interview and team members are also watching tv live stages. mikkelsen was third on the raod, tänaks start time was 24 min later.

maybe a team member informs the crew about a tricky place at road book box nr. xy, were several teams before had problems and not to take maximum risk at this spot to avoid an accident.

[EstWRC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIBaRYuJTV8

holy shit that was amazing! thank you

[AnttiL]

holy shit that was amazing! thank you

Yeah. That and Methka's video remind me much of the classic Group B videos, it hasn't been like this in years...

[dimviii]

holy shit that was amazing! thank you
yes best video till now from Poland! congrats to uploader!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I don’t know if this was already discussed here in the forum. is it allowed to warn crews via radio before their start into the stage or maybe before the start time control about road conditions or tricky places?

tänaks out was at the same place were mikkelsen had problems. sordo also said something about slippery places in the narrow wood section at the stage end interview and team members are also watching tv live stages. mikkelsen was third on the raod, tänaks start time was 24 min later.

maybe a team member informs the crew about a tricky place at road book box nr. xy, were several teams before had problems and not to take maximum risk at this spot to avoid an accident.

The TV guys mentioned this on the live stage when Mikkelsen went straight on. They said the drivers waiting to run did not have team radio to warn them.

[EstWRC]

credit to Jaanus Ree

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19620426_1575916909106941_7420151067986825849_o.jp g?oh=f11ccd270785bcc9f67060a7c46e33a8&oe=59DC0EBE

[drive]

Some pics from Saturday https://www.facebook.com/pg/V-P-Motors-206516736370376/photos/?tab=album&album_id=454576008231113
Friday https://www.facebook.com/pg/V-P-Motors-206516736370376/photos/?tab=album&album_id=454576008231113
Shakedown https://www.facebook.com/pg/V-P-Motors-206516736370376/photos/?tab=album&album_id=453701901651857

[br21]

The TV guys mentioned this on the live stage when Mikkelsen went straight on. They said the drivers waiting to run did not have team radio to warn them.

But all the crews have mobile phones, so comunication is not a problem. Just to know exact localisation of that place is little bit complicated.

[spiderem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIBaRYuJTV8

Lol those guys at 1:00 ;)

[dimviii]

But all the crews have mobile phones, so comunication is not a problem. Just to know exact localisation of that place is little bit complicated.

br any news from Poland?

[bearclaw]

The TV guys mentioned this on the live stage when Mikkelsen went straight on. They said the drivers waiting to run did not have team radio to warn them.

thanks for that. I missed that on the live stage. in other words it’s forbidden to communicate (via team radio or mobile phone) with the crews before the start of a stage to warn them.


But all the crews have mobile phones, so comunication is not a problem. Just to know exact localisation of that place is little bit complicated.

I think with live gps tracking maps and a google earth-stage map for example, it should be doable for a team member (maybe a former co-driver) to locate the spot and communicate the road book box in a few minutes to the crews.

[steve.mandzij]

thanks for that. I missed that on the live stage. in other words it’s forbidden to communicate (via team radio or mobile phone) with the crews before the start of a stage to warn them.



I think with live gps tracking maps and a google earth-stage map for example, it should be doable for a team member (maybe a former co-driver) to locate the spot and communicate the road book box in a few minutes to the crews.
Was it allowed in the past though? Henning told Sordo once to call him while he was at the start to alert him of the stone he'd just hit. There's a video and everything.


Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[SubaruNorway]

They obviously can read the live text on wrc.com though, so some warning they have
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl7suASGXy8

[MartijnS]

So, a report of our rally experience.

We arrived on tuesday already, so had some time to recce the stages we planned on visiting on tuesday afternoon and wednesday.
Our first WRC visit of this year, so we were curious about what to expect!

Thursday shakedown, not a bad stage. A bit more possibilities than last years shakedown. Started at the small jump, left after most of the guys passed once and slowly moved back to halfway the stage during the morning. Already clear than that the Citroën wasn't the best car there..all over the place. A lot of spectators already, nice atmosphere! We planned on visiting the showstart, but cancelled due to the storm. Than went to SS1, not much special there, but still nice to see the battles.

Friday we planned on doing 4 stages, turned out to be only 2 so not such a good day haha.
Not being able to drive the entree roads due to mud/rain, we found to get to the jumps on the first part of the stage, we decided to go to stage 3 and try again in the afternoon. Nice fast righthander where we watched every car. Tanak had the craziest pass as more times that weekend. Decided to skip stage 5 as we had to leave on this stage after about 10 cars due to the 3 minute gaps. So than settled for only 3 stages on friday, but unfortunately we were at the cancelled stage 6 than.
Again 1.5 hours or so driving to the final stage of the day, again not being able to get to the spot we wanted due to muddy access road, but found a really nice fast right/left combination to finish the day, again watched the whole field as we didnt see that much, big save of Lindholm in the Fiesta, almost binned it there! So what we saw was good, but a 14 hour day in the rain for 2 stages is a bit too much haha.

Saturday again 4 stages planned and that worked out fine! Nice weather and some excellent spots. We marked a spot close after the start of the first stage of the day, was not perfect, but made some nice photos. Than off to the 4th stage of the loop. Nice jump with directly a left and right combination after it. Some great passes, especially Tanak, Ostberg and Latvala. Moving the car exactly past the haybale that was in the left corner after landing the jump. Than back again to the same stage as we did in the morning and that was one of the best spots of the weekend. Series of so so fast bends, amazing speeds and sideways action there. Back again to the last stage, fast spot over a crest where Mikkelsen ended up in the field in the first loop. Nice action there again, left after the WRC cars due to rain starting to fall.

Sunday we did the powerstage stage 2 times. First time at the last part with the jumps, was not great. One big spectator area and jump I was on wasn't that spectacular. Than we went to the spot where Tanak crashed, nice corner but also not that great. Than the annual rush to the airport, again one of the closest arrivals we ever had for a flight, same as last year. So much traffic.

Conclusion; such an epic rally to visit. Stages are so so spectacular and easy to reach (when the weather is good). Although it doesn't seem that way when you see all the videos, we find it really quite difficult to do what we want on the stages. On the quite parts we most of the times choose for some reason the marshalls really are strict and you need to be lucky to be be able to stand on a nice spot haha. You see that on the busiers spots there are not enough marshalls and things tend to get out of control but we didnt experience that except for 1 stage.
So we are hoping it will remain on the calender, cheap to visit (6 days for 400 euro per person incl appartment, rentalcar, flight and eating/drinking) Finland at least double the money and than this is an easy pick for us haha.
Think you've seen Joost his video already. Some photos of me:

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19468011_1393445210743444_5222792640226083752_o.jp g?oh=c52bfdda6e35049a306181bf48287a33&oe=59C6075A

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19620327_1396113813809917_3725355842359337227_o.jp g?oh=6ffd1d1116f914754cd302267deaf34d&oe=59C9EAD7

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19488971_1395032590584706_3734002416942515772_o.jp g?oh=95e973e9846a148dfb942645e557be97&oe=5A055457

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19477722_1396113713809927_5880804171727367667_o.jp g?oh=8a130c39a1ce8864d2713d7dfbd28585&oe=59C66496

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19488834_1395032487251383_474403318164059354_o.jpg ?oh=0261ce9da1aba341d9878c00f94e63ea&oe=59CE0DFB

More at our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pg/rallymedia/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1393441414077157

Next WRC for us will be Germany, looking forward to it now!

[noel157]

Fantastic images Martijn, especially:

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19620327_1396113813809917_3725355842359337227_o.jp g?oh=6ffd1d1116f914754cd302267deaf34d&oe=59C9EAD7

[dimviii]

Ogier photo at your post is amazing! thanks mate!!

[KKS]

I am still puzzled by the starting order for PS (Breen-Hanninen-Mikkelsen-Latvala(rally2)-Evans). Double-checking in Portugal it was (Paddon (rally2) - Meeke (rally 2) - Al Quasimi - Lefebvre ... ).

Just can't find any explanation and nobody seems to care. Latvala jumped Tanak in the standings due to the powerstage win. I'd say he probably wouldn't be able to win it from first place on the road.

If his starting position was correct, then why was it different in Portugal.
It's very simple

Start time of 1st car at SS22 was 10:45
Latvala's stage start was 11:21

1st car enter to regroup at 11:32
So Latvala time for regroup in - 12:08

1st car to leave regroup at 12:02 and it was a 4 min interval so
2nd at 12:06
3rd at 12:10 (2 min after Latvala in) - it was very risky give him only 2min to regroup
4th and actually Latvala time for regroup out - 12:14. And 6 min for regroup for Latvala.
Standard time of regroup - 30min

[drive]

fast.. https://youtu.be/6xikS0s_ouM

[mknight]

While that explains exactly this rally it is just technicalities due to the already planned schedule. IF the rules was fixed that Rally2 has to drive first they'd just need to take it into account in the schedule beforehand.

Pluto said there is no fixed rules for that part. Which would explain it all. Sounds a bit hard to believe that teams accept that kind of "randomness" at this level.

[dimviii]

fast.. https://youtu.be/6xikS0s_ouM

Neuville less sideways from these 4 .

[KKS]

IF the rules was fixed that Rally2 has to drive first they'd just need to take it into account in the schedule beforehand.

WRC Sporting reg's didn't have a special note about power stage running order, but they have this

35.2 EXIT FROM A REGROUPExcept after an overnight regroup and before the start of the Power Stage, the cars shall re-start in the orderof arrival at the regroup.

So rules approve that Latvala move but didn't describe who pick a running order

[rallyfiend]

It's very simple

Start time of 1st car at SS22 was 10:45
Latvala's stage start was 11:21

1st car enter to regroup at 11:32
So Latvala time for regroup in - 12:08

1st car to leave regroup at 12:02 and it was a 4 min interval so
2nd at 12:06
3rd at 12:10 (2 min after Latvala in) - it was very risky give him only 2min to regroup
4th and actually Latvala time for regroup out - 12:14. And 6 min for regroup for Latvala.
Standard time of regroup - 30min

Yeah, so basically, they put him in the Power Stage at reasonably the first possible opportunity.

In those conditions, I don't think this would have had a huge impact on the outcome.

[Andre Oliveira]

Ogier: "I have never been a kamikaze behind the wheel. I have always trusted in my feeling above all else and I tend not to force things if I feel I'm not 100% in control. It was the case on those ploughed up and super slippery roads, and at times I didn't dare take those additional risks to have the optimum speed."

http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/july-2017/ogier-no-kamikaze/page/4686--12-12-.html

[dimviii]

Latvala problems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_WcXQF5SFY

[tommeke_B]

A few photos from me. In terms of safety it was worse than last year. It's quite simple, Polish spectators are very difficult to handle. Also the organization is doing very little to keep them safe. For spectating it's the best and most spectacular event, but if we're really honest, an event with this kind of organization doesn't deserve a place in WRC.

https://scontent.fbru1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19620592_1847786951899849_6033442956853852460_o.jp g?oh=dbad9e06d84804e0447a05df32b18468&oe=5A07A8CF

https://scontent.fbru1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19621015_1847782381900306_986601911028540412_o.jpg ?oh=dbda57fa40151840208877a491dbc234&oe=5A051789

https://scontent.fbru1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19620481_1847783321900212_6319710639764719494_o.jp g?oh=66aaf3d43470b249f02024f061332b03&oe=5A056261

https://scontent.fbru1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19667921_1847783611900183_7155213348250991719_o.jp g?oh=5e084ce2362e9d1b5afab9f54281370b&oe=59C3F583

https://scontent.fbru1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19667779_1847784461900098_5979133400403204741_o.jp g?oh=604ea3858e4236fb5677db42c10cc736&oe=59D6430A

More: https://www.facebook.com/pg/rallyimage/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1847782328566978

[KKS]

Yeah, so basically, they put him in the Power Stage at reasonably the first possible opportunity.

In those conditions, I don't think this would have had a huge impact on the outcome.
But it's a bit of problem here. If road position will be very bad for rally2 driver who really WANT that 5pts - he must do late at regroup-in to be as far as he want. But he didn't get a TV coverage, but who care if you want 5pts.

[mknight]

Time differences on PS are always very small. Road position difference between 4th or 6th on the road is probably negligible, but on gravel rallies there will always be huge difference between 1st and 3rd+.

That's why I find it outrageous that such an important point is not clearly defined in the rules... and even more outrageous that teams don't seem to complain loud about it. That said as far as I can see Poland is the first rally of the year where a Rally2 driver didn't go before "normal" drivers.

[sonnybobiche]

A few photos from me. In terms of safety it was worse than last year. It's quite simple, Polish spectators are very difficult to handle. Also the organization is doing very little to keep them safe. For spectating it's the best and most spectacular event, but if we're really honest, an event with this kind of organization doesn't deserve a place in WRC.


I disagree. This is the first rally in a long time where the images made me think, "Yes, it would be really enjoyable to be there." Not even in all areas. There were some parts where the spectators were obviously pushed way back past where they would like to be. But this sport needs to accept the fact that it is a spectator participation sport, and that is a huge part of the appeal.

If they can come onto the stage to help stricken cars, they should be able to stand where they want. You need to trust people to take care of themselves, and accept the consequences.

Or you can just be like the fucking awful F1 of the last few years that shelters everyone from everything and sucks all the joy out of life. Except it will be even worse than that, because we're not the pinnacle of motorsport, so we don't get the big bucks. It will be like WTCC qualifying on gravel. Is that what you all want? Because that's what you get when you keep crowing about safety.

You know why people like Group B? Because it looked dangerous, and it kind of was. A couple of people died in the few years it was running. I think, if we're honest, we'd rather all have the memories of Group B than have those people back. We're all glad that Group B existed. Anyone who isn't, really isn't a rally fan.

[EightGear]

I am not even sure if you are serious or if I'm missing some kind of sarcasm..?

[Mirek]

I fail to see what is exciting about a firebrigade truck going against the competitor on stage (even going in opposite direction alone is a big no no). IMHO the event shall not be part of WRC even when the stages are super exciting until the organiazion is able to handle it.

[noel157]

I disagree. This is the first rally in a long time where the images made me think, "Yes, it would be really enjoyable to be there." Not even in all areas. There were some parts where the spectators were obviously pushed way back past where they would like to be. But this sport needs to accept the fact that it is a spectator participation sport, and that is a huge part of the appeal.

If they can come onto the stage to help stricken cars, they should be able to stand where they want. You need to trust people to take care of themselves, and accept the consequences.

Or you can just be like the fucking awful F1 of the last few years that shelters everyone from everything and sucks all the joy out of life. Except it will be even worse than that, because we're not the pinnacle of motorsport, so we don't get the big bucks. It will be like WTCC qualifying on gravel. Is that what you all want? Because that's what you get when you keep crowing about safety.

You know why people like Group B? Because it looked dangerous, and it kind of was. A couple of people died in the few years it was running. I think, if we're honest, we'd rather all have the memories of Group B than have those people back. We're all glad that Group B existed. Anyone who isn't, really isn't a rally fan.


What have you been smoking?


Trust spectators to accept the consequences? Accidents, injuries and death, yep that would work well, just ask the families left behind and drivers like Paddon and Mikkelsen and many others....
Crowing about safety? You can never, ever be too vocal about safety.
And the most stupid part of your post- "we'd rather all have the memories of Group B than have those people back"- don't know who you think "we" are but I'm pretty sure every member here, except you obviously, would rather Toivonen, Cresto and Bettega were now retired at home with their families after a successful career in rallying. Pretty sick, if you want Death Race 2000, rent a movie.
You lad, are no rally fan with thoughts like that.

[sonnybobiche]

Okay, you would literally prefer to have another rally driver growing old somewhere than have all the memories of Group B. Okay.

Your same kind of person would rather have a bunch of no names around than have explored the New World, or have reached the moon, or have achieved anything in life. Any time that anything requires any kind of sacrifice, fuck that, right? Because we can do it a safer way, and if we can't, it's not worth doing. Right?

That is a pathetic attitude. But worse than that, it's a hypocrite attitude, because we both know that you wouldn't give a shit about rally if you didn't have those memories of Group B, and if the drivers weren't completely insane heroes.

You people all talk real pretty, but look deep inside yourselves for about ten minutes and ask yourselves what you truly love about rally, and then ask yourselves, "Is that actually SAFE?"

And if you answer yes, then shut up, because you're goddamn liars.


Now let's break down some of this bullshit:


"I fail to see what is exciting about a firebrigade truck going against the competitor on stage (even going in opposite direction alone is a big no
no)."

Actually, that was mildly exciting to see on TV. Even though I couldn't see it on TV. I watched it on youtube like 5 times. It was a big fuck up. That's exciting. If you can't see that, I can show you a million people who can see it.

"IMHO the event shall not be part of WRC even when the stages are super exciting until the organiazion is able to handle it."

Hopefully English is not your first language, and you meant "should not" instead of "shall not". Don't worry, it's not my first language either. But I think I'm right in saying: The event should be part of WRC because the stages are super exciting, even if the organization is not able to handle it, because we are not a bunch of fucking little girls who will sue each other if we get a broken nail.


"Trust spectators to accept the consequences? Accidents, injuries and death, yep that would work well, just ask the families left behind and drivers like Paddon and Mikkelsen and many others...."

OK, so you don't trust spectators to take care of themselves? You don't trust people to take care of themselves? They're too stupid to take care of themselves? They need someone smart like you, or Jean Todt, to take care of them because they're too stupid to make wise decisions? OK.

I mean, what? OK Paddon and Mikkelsen killed two people in the last like 10 years of rallying, and one or two more killed their co drivers. What, does that mean we shouldn't have rally any more? I know what you're going to say. Because you're a hypocrite, you're going to say, "Of course we should have rally, but we should try our hardest to avoid this in the future" Guess what. Trying your hardest to avoid it in the future means not having any more rally. That is the hardest you can try, and I guarantee that will avoid this in the future. But you aren't willing to do that, are you, hypocrite?

"Crowing about safety? You can never, ever be too vocal about safety. "

OK, here's me being too vocal about safety: We shouldn't allow any spectators. They shouldn't be allowed to touch the cars. They shouldn't be allowed to step onto the track in any way. They shouldn't be allowed to help out the drivers. It should be like F1. Actually it should be tougher than F1. Everyone should stay at home and the drivers should drive on roads closed to everyone. Even cameramen. In fact the drivers themselves shouldnt be exposed to danger, they should drive remote controlled cars through Richard Burns Rally and everyone should watch from home through WRC+.

Is that not too vocal about safety? Goddamn people don't actually think about what they're saying. Take a fucking philosophy class or something. Learn to think. Do better than our FIA masters. Motorsport is INHERENTLY dangerous. There is no amount or version of motorsport that is as safe as not doing motorsport. Therefore any motorsport fan is a fan of some amount of danger. You people think you're right because you're nice. But nice isn't always right. Sometimes it's wrong, and harmful to what you actually love. Learn that.

[Lundefaret]

Okay, you would literally prefer to have another rally driver growing old somewhere than have all the memories of Group B. Okay.

Your same kind of person would rather have a bunch of no names around than have explored the New World, or have reached the moon, or have achieved anything in life. Any time that anything requires any kind of sacrifice, fuck that, right? Because we can do it a safer way, and if we can't, it's not worth doing. Right?

That is a pathetic attitude. But worse than that, it's a hypocrite attitude, because we both know that you wouldn't give a shit about rally if you didn't have those memories of Group B, and if the drivers weren't completely insane heroes.

You people all talk real pretty, but look deep inside yourselves for about ten minutes and ask yourselves what you truly love about rally, and then ask yourselves, "Is that actually SAFE?"

And if you answer yes, then shut up, because you're goddamn liars.


Now let's break down some of this bullshit:


"I fail to see what is exciting about a firebrigade truck going against the competitor on stage (even going in opposite direction alone is a big no
no)."

Actually, that was mildly exciting to see on TV. Even though I couldn't see it on TV. I watched it on youtube like 5 times. It was a big fuck up. That's exciting. If you can't see that, I can show you a million people who can see it.

"IMHO the event shall not be part of WRC even when the stages are super exciting until the organiazion is able to handle it."

Hopefully English is not your first language, and you meant "should not" instead of "shall not". Don't worry, it's not my first language either. But I think I'm right in saying: The event should be part of WRC because the stages are super exciting, even if the organization is not able to handle it, because we are not a bunch of fucking little girls who will sue each other if we get a broken nail.


"Trust spectators to accept the consequences? Accidents, injuries and death, yep that would work well, just ask the families left behind and drivers like Paddon and Mikkelsen and many others...."

OK, so you don't trust spectators to take care of themselves? You don't trust people to take care of themselves? They're too stupid to take care of themselves? They need someone smart like you, or Jean Todt, to take care of them because they're too stupid to make wise decisions? OK.

I mean, what? OK Paddon and Mikkelsen killed two people in the last like 10 years of rallying, and one or two more killed their co drivers. What, does that mean we shouldn't have rally any more? I know what you're going to say. Because you're a hypocrite, you're going to say, "Of course we should have rally, but we should try our hardest to avoid this in the future" Guess what. Trying your hardest to avoid it in the future means not having any more rally. That is the hardest you can try, and I guarantee that will avoid this in the future. But you aren't willing to do that, are you, hypocrite?

"Crowing about safety? You can never, ever be too vocal about safety. "

OK, here's me being too vocal about safety: We shouldn't allow any spectators. They shouldn't be allowed to touch the cars. They shouldn't be allowed to step onto the track in any way. They shouldn't be allowed to help out the drivers. It should be like F1. Actually it should be tougher than F1. Everyone should stay at home and the drivers should drive on roads closed to everyone. Even cameramen. In fact the drivers themselves shouldnt be exposed to danger, they should drive remote controlled cars through Richard Burns Rally and everyone should watch from home through WRC+.

Is that not too vocal about safety? Goddamn people don't actually think about what they're saying. Take a fucking philosophy class or something. Learn to think. Do better than our FIA masters. Motorsport is INHERENTLY dangerous. There is no amount or version of motorsport that is as safe as not doing motorsport. Therefore any motorsport fan is a fan of some amount of danger. You people think you're right because you're nice. But nice isn't always right. Sometimes it's wrong, and harmful to what you actually love. Learn that.

Group B wrote great stories of legends past, and as you say, a lot of it had to do with the danger and accidents. It wouldnt have been the legend it is today with out them.

But the consequences of the accidents in Group B could have easily been avoided. There was no need for the cars to catch fire after crashing. There was no need for absolutely no crowd control.

Group B was spectacular, but it was not sustainable, and the consequence was that it was banned after only two "real" years.

WRC 2017 is a big step in the right direction for rallying, and the stuff of legends, but lets keep it sustainable by avoiding unnessesary risk. Either for competitor or for spectators.

This year, especially thanks to "Test Pilot" Kris Meeke, we can see that the cars are safe enough for their crew.
But with out taking away to much from the fan experience, we must see to it that the spectators are not put at an unacceptable level of risk.

From my point of view, Rally Poland is above what is acceptable for the spectators. Poor crowd control combined with stages in open fields with no natural barriers (like the trees of Finland or the snow and trees in Sweden) are a big challenge.

On top of that there are too many safety glitches. (If you think sending fire trucks in to a live stage, on top of that in the wron direction, is a good way to get some excitement in to the sport, I can say that we have a great difference of opinion)
If those safety glitches, and the poor crowd controll is kept going, a big accident with bad consequenses is going to happen, and the sport will suffer. Like it did in the Group B days.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Rally Poland may be on the verge of being axed as a round of the WRC amid safety concerns at last week's event.. https://t.co/L3ididto75 https://t.co/GnCD2Ic7o8

[Jarek Z]

Look! Rally Poland makes people happy! :)
https://www.facebook.com/rallyemag/videos/10155548749784973/

[Grundo Farb]

Anyone watch Paddons facebook live Q and A session? He made some interesting comments about how it looks fast from the outside but inside he said it actually feels a little sedate in Poland due to the relatively sticky surface. He said Finland feels faster due to the gravel surface being different. He also said the difference between last years cars and now is the corner speed not absolute speed due to the changes in down-force. I thought his most interesting comment was about being more comfortable on a high speed 6th gear corner than a slow 2nd gear corner due to the braking point.

Well worth a watch as he was making some interesting comments.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Group B wrote great stories of legends past, and as you say, a lot of it had to do with the danger and accidents. It wouldnt have been the legend it is today with out them.

But the consequences of the accidents in Group B could have easily been avoided. There was no need for the cars to catch fire after crashing. There was no need for absolutely no crowd control.

Group B was spectacular, but it was not sustainable, and the consequence was that it was banned after only two "real" years.

WRC 2017 is a big step in the right direction for rallying, and the stuff of legends, but lets keep it sustainable by avoiding unnessesary risk. Either for competitor or for spectators.

This year, especially thanks to "Test Pilot" Kris Meeke, we can see that the cars are safe enough for their crew.
But with out taking away to much from the fan experience, we must see to it that the spectators are not put at an unacceptable level of risk.

From my point of view, Rally Poland is above what is acceptable for the spectators. Poor crowd control combined with stages in open fields with no natural barriers (like the trees of Finland or the snow and trees in Sweden) are a big challenge.

On top of that there are too many safety glitches. (If you think sending fire trucks in to a live stage, on top of that in the wron direction, is a good way to get some excitement in to the sport, I can say that we have a great difference of opinion)
If those safety glitches, and the poor crowd controll is kept going, a big accident with bad consequenses is going to happen, and the sport will suffer. Like it did in the Group B days.

This is spot on.

As someone who was there, the excitement of Group B was all about the amazing CARS and the brilliant DRIVER'S.

It had nothing to do with danger or crazy idiots standing by the roads.

Safe crowds and cars that protected the driver's would have let it continue.

[steve.mandzij]

Okay, you would literally prefer to have another rally driver growing old somewhere than have all the memories of Group B. Okay.

Your same kind of person would rather have a bunch of no names around than have explored the New World, or have reached the moon, or have achieved anything in life. Any time that anything requires any kind of sacrifice, fuck that, right? Because we can do it a safer way, and if we can't, it's not worth doing. Right?

That is a pathetic attitude. But worse than that, it's a hypocrite attitude, because we both know that you wouldn't give a shit about rally if you didn't have those memories of Group B, and if the drivers weren't completely insane heroes.

You people all talk real pretty, but look deep inside yourselves for about ten minutes and ask yourselves what you truly love about rally, and then ask yourselves, "Is that actually SAFE?"

And if you answer yes, then shut up, because you're goddamn liars.


Now let's break down some of this bullshit:


"I fail to see what is exciting about a firebrigade truck going against the competitor on stage (even going in opposite direction alone is a big no
no)."

Actually, that was mildly exciting to see on TV. Even though I couldn't see it on TV. I watched it on youtube like 5 times. It was a big fuck up. That's exciting. If you can't see that, I can show you a million people who can see it.

"IMHO the event shall not be part of WRC even when the stages are super exciting until the organiazion is able to handle it."

Hopefully English is not your first language, and you meant "should not" instead of "shall not". Don't worry, it's not my first language either. But I think I'm right in saying: The event should be part of WRC because the stages are super exciting, even if the organization is not able to handle it, because we are not a bunch of fucking little girls who will sue each other if we get a broken nail.


"Trust spectators to accept the consequences? Accidents, injuries and death, yep that would work well, just ask the families left behind and drivers like Paddon and Mikkelsen and many others...."

OK, so you don't trust spectators to take care of themselves? You don't trust people to take care of themselves? They're too stupid to take care of themselves? They need someone smart like you, or Jean Todt, to take care of them because they're too stupid to make wise decisions? OK.

I mean, what? OK Paddon and Mikkelsen killed two people in the last like 10 years of rallying, and one or two more killed their co drivers. What, does that mean we shouldn't have rally any more? I know what you're going to say. Because you're a hypocrite, you're going to say, "Of course we should have rally, but we should try our hardest to avoid this in the future" Guess what. Trying your hardest to avoid it in the future means not having any more rally. That is the hardest you can try, and I guarantee that will avoid this in the future. But you aren't willing to do that, are you, hypocrite?

"Crowing about safety? You can never, ever be too vocal about safety. "

OK, here's me being too vocal about safety: We shouldn't allow any spectators. They shouldn't be allowed to touch the cars. They shouldn't be allowed to step onto the track in any way. They shouldn't be allowed to help out the drivers. It should be like F1. Actually it should be tougher than F1. Everyone should stay at home and the drivers should drive on roads closed to everyone. Even cameramen. In fact the drivers themselves shouldnt be exposed to danger, they should drive remote controlled cars through Richard Burns Rally and everyone should watch from home through WRC+.

Is that not too vocal about safety? Goddamn people don't actually think about what they're saying. Take a fucking philosophy class or something. Learn to think. Do better than our FIA masters. Motorsport is INHERENTLY dangerous. There is no amount or version of motorsport that is as safe as not doing motorsport. Therefore any motorsport fan is a fan of some amount of danger. You people think you're right because you're nice. But nice isn't always right. Sometimes it's wrong, and harmful to what you actually love. Learn that.
Not even NOT can spew out such shit like this.

If you don't care about spectator safety you are not a rally fan, because thanks to spectators who couldn't take care of themselves your beloved Group B was banned. If people don't take the same precautions now then we won't have rally at all. That's not what you want, unless, that is, you don't really like rally.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Zeakiwi]

Looking at some of the average speeds on some of the Rally Poland stages - the speeds are probably starting to get too high again. 125km/h averages on dirt
Are there any estimates on Rally Finland speeds?
I would expect the cars wrc and r5 to be be power reduced next season.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

What's wrong with safety in Rally Poland? Here's 2 pictures that explain a lot. Clue: This is the 'before' one https://t.co/bGRQlVujdS https://t.co/ANWGBaxiAM

https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/columns/all-thats-wrong-with-rally-poland/

[AnttiL]

Are there any estimates on Rally Finland speeds?.

Fast, but 140 km/h for most of the stage is apparently ok if you add some chicanes

[Eli]

Continuing the subject of safety & more specifically safe spectating:
https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/news/rallying-news/wrc/poland-on-edge-of-wrc-axe/

[sonnybobiche]

Not even NOT can spew out such shit like this.

If you don't care about spectator safety you are not a rally fan, because thanks to spectators who couldn't take care of themselves your beloved Group B was banned. If people don't take the same precautions now then we won't have rally at all. That's not what you want, unless, that is, you don't really like rally.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

No, Group B was banned because of knee-jerk overreaction by some FISA bureaucrats to a couple of deaths. And that's what bureaucrats do after all deaths, because their job as they see it is to cover their own asses, damn the consequences to the rest of us.

I love this sport for what it was, and what little of that remains in it despite every attempt by the FIA to get rid of it. You are the lot who think the sport would be the same if it was sanitized to be perfectly safe. Except you don't think about what that entails, because... well... I don't know why you don't think about that. But you should.

PS. Maybe he doesn't say it in the most tactful way, but a lot of what NOT says on a lot of subjects is the truth. But with most people it's all about saying things in pretty, friendly, non-confrontational ways. I don't care about that at all. I read something and I ask myself, "Is what this person is saying objectively correct or not?" You would all do well to do the same.

[EightGear]

Can N.O.T. please send his brother to his room?

[sonnybobiche]

Can N.O.T. please send his brother to his room?


Cool, cool. So no argument, no logic, just subtle digs. And you will win the debate, because your opinion is extremely popular. Safety is the most important thing, right? "There can be no compromise on safety!" Those are the actual words of Yves Matton. https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/news/rallying-news/wrc/poland-on-edge-of-wrc-axe/

Never mind that if there is no compromise on safety, there is no motorsport, because any motorsport is fundamentally less safe than no motorsport. It's so blatantly illogical that it is hard for me to understand how someone can say something like that, but there it is. And I bet you agree with him. Brilliant.

[noel157]

Okay, you would literally prefer to have another rally driver growing old somewhere than have all the memories of Group B. Okay.

Your same kind of person would rather have a bunch of no names around than have explored the New World, or have reached the moon, or have achieved anything in life. Any time that anything requires any kind of sacrifice, fuck that, right? Because we can do it a safer way, and if we can't, it's not worth doing. Right?

That is a pathetic attitude. But worse than that, it's a hypocrite attitude, because we both know that you wouldn't give a shit about rally if you didn't have those memories of Group B, and if the drivers weren't completely insane heroes.

You people all talk real pretty, but look deep inside yourselves for about ten minutes and ask yourselves what you truly love about rally, and then ask yourselves, "Is that actually SAFE?"

And if you answer yes, then shut up, because you're goddamn liars.


Now let's break down some of this bullshit:


"I fail to see what is exciting about a firebrigade truck going against the competitor on stage (even going in opposite direction alone is a big no
no)."

Actually, that was mildly exciting to see on TV. Even though I couldn't see it on TV. I watched it on youtube like 5 times. It was a big fuck up. That's exciting. If you can't see that, I can show you a million people who can see it.

"IMHO the event shall not be part of WRC even when the stages are super exciting until the organiazion is able to handle it."

Hopefully English is not your first language, and you meant "should not" instead of "shall not". Don't worry, it's not my first language either. But I think I'm right in saying: The event should be part of WRC because the stages are super exciting, even if the organization is not able to handle it, because we are not a bunch of fucking little girls who will sue each other if we get a broken nail.


"Trust spectators to accept the consequences? Accidents, injuries and death, yep that would work well, just ask the families left behind and drivers like Paddon and Mikkelsen and many others...."

OK, so you don't trust spectators to take care of themselves? You don't trust people to take care of themselves? They're too stupid to take care of themselves? They need someone smart like you, or Jean Todt, to take care of them because they're too stupid to make wise decisions? OK.

I mean, what? OK Paddon and Mikkelsen killed two people in the last like 10 years of rallying, and one or two more killed their co drivers. What, does that mean we shouldn't have rally any more? I know what you're going to say. Because you're a hypocrite, you're going to say, "Of course we should have rally, but we should try our hardest to avoid this in the future" Guess what. Trying your hardest to avoid it in the future means not having any more rally. That is the hardest you can try, and I guarantee that will avoid this in the future. But you aren't willing to do that, are you, hypocrite?

"Crowing about safety? You can never, ever be too vocal about safety. "

OK, here's me being too vocal about safety: We shouldn't allow any spectators. They shouldn't be allowed to touch the cars. They shouldn't be allowed to step onto the track in any way. They shouldn't be allowed to help out the drivers. It should be like F1. Actually it should be tougher than F1. Everyone should stay at home and the drivers should drive on roads closed to everyone. Even cameramen. In fact the drivers themselves shouldnt be exposed to danger, they should drive remote controlled cars through Richard Burns Rally and everyone should watch from home through WRC+.

Is that not too vocal about safety? Goddamn people don't actually think about what they're saying. Take a fucking philosophy class or something. Learn to think. Do better than our FIA masters. Motorsport is INHERENTLY dangerous. There is no amount or version of motorsport that is as safe as not doing motorsport. Therefore any motorsport fan is a fan of some amount of danger. You people think you're right because you're nice. But nice isn't always right. Sometimes it's wrong, and harmful to what you actually love. Learn that.

Interesting reply to my post.

Out of interest, what age are you?

[sonnybobiche]

30 in a few days. I do apologize for some of the language in that post, reading it back now. I was pretty riled up about something entirely unrelated. I stand by the main points, though.

[Mirek]

Don't You feel that there is something wrong about argumenting by an era which was already over when You were born? You know things look different when decades pass and only stories are beying told.

[[WRCRR]]

30 in a few days. I do apologize for some of the language in that post, reading it back now. I was pretty riled up about something entirely unrelated. I stand by the main points, though.

What you might not appreciate is that many people here understand some of the points you were trying to make, even if you presented them in pretty awful way. However, some of the things you don't seem to grasp:

1) That rallying doesn't exist in a vacuum.
2) That we can't go "back to how things were" - this is true to everything in life in general, btw.

And believe me, I remember the Group B era well - I was there to see it live. However, I do not see it as a glorified golden era like so many others. There were enormous issues with safety back then - issues that definitely should not have been ignored then, but are totally impossible to ignore nowadays.

Also, If you haven't noticed the motor industry in general is in the middle of it's biggest change probably ever. Motorsport is not the hottest thing right now either. Rallying especially is a vulnerable sport in many ways, as the competition is not held on purpose-build courses where safety and other issues can be monitored on a wholly different level, unlike basically most other types of motor races.

The negative impact of a huge incident involving spectators (or competitors, but especially spectators) in a WRC rally would be enormous. We who truly enjoy this sport understand this, and are willing to sometimes compromise to safeguard the future. Sure, I dislike the modern "walled garden" spectator areas common in most WRC events as much as almost every rally fan. However, I also understand that this is necessary, especially in WRC events which bring in lots of spectators not familiar with rallying or motorsport in general. In a modern top level event there has to be a certain level of safety - otherwise there will be soon no event to follow at all.

And sure, you might not always get to the best spot in these modern events, like you used to in the "good old days". That is the price way pay - deal with it.

If you really want to support rallying, go to your local events, there you can almost always get to the best spot, even with the increased safety standards. Even better, at the same time you are supporting the local motoring club and safeguarding the future of rallying. And if you want to go all out in your support - get into marshalling as well. Not only you get to see the "safety issue" from totally different viewpoint, you are also becoming a vital part in making the event happen year after year.

[Rally Power]

I read something and I ask myself, "Is what this person is saying objectively correct or not?" You would all do well to do the same.

Following that fine principle one has to correct you: it wasn’t neither the public nor the bureaucrats fault, Gr.B cars were simply too dangerous.

I’m not in the mood to look for driver’s quotes, but everybody aged enough remembers they all mentioned (at the time or some years later) that driving those cars was a permanent risk.

The ban occurred after Toivonen and Cresto tragic accident in Corsica, which didn’t involve any spectator, because it became obvious the passive and active Gr.B poor safety standards shouldn’t be allowed anymore.

On current cars safety I’ll say what I’ve said a long time ago: these car are great and much safer than the old Gr.B, but the speed increase shouldn’t be taken lightly: spectators control must be a priority and second level drivers shouldn’t be allowed to use them (superlicense mandatory).

A final note: IMO dissonant views are always welcomed, there’s nothing worse than unanimity in a debate, but it’s wrong to confuse free opinion with systematic insult, like the forum troll you’ve mentioned (hopefully not your role model) does.

[AL14]

Too many lines debating over a simple fact. That's too dangerous -> it has not improved over the years -> get out from WRC and hopefully from rally in general.

[AnttiL]

The ban occurred after Toivonen and Cresto tragic accident in Corsica, which didn’t involve any spectator, because it became obvious the passive and active Gr.B poor safety standards shouldn’t be allowed anymore.

Yes. Canceling Group B wasn't only about spectator issues. Of course it's impossible to say if FISA would have decided the same without the Portugal accident, but the accidents of Bettega and Vatanen were still fresh in the memory. The drivers would have wanted to continue with Group B or Group S cars, if they would have taken the hot turbos away or increased the safety in some other way. And actually there were seven driver deaths in WRC events between 1987-1990 but only three since then. And same goes for spectator deaths. The safety has been improved on both sides, although the cars are again faster, now probably faster than ever, but also safer than ever.

[sonnybobiche]

First off I just want to apologize again for the salty language earlier. That was not on.

As for the actual safety issues and the future of rallying, I think that it's a mistake to sacrifice the sport in any way for what we pretend will be a temporary change to get through a rough patch. I think this is a form of managed decline. It's a vicious cycle. Let's say you make things safer, but it requires some sacrifice to the sport. Pushing crowds back, for example, or requiring all four wheels to be on the car, or getting rid of Safari with its open roads. The result is that the sport is a bit safer, but also has fewer fans and fewer eyeballs. So there's less money, less manufacturer interest. Also, the culture around the sport demands ever-increasing safety, so whatever change you made is now the new normal, and anything less than that is seen as outrageously dangerous. For both of those reasons, there's less money to pay outrageous insurance fees. So you have to go even safer. Eventually someone asks, "hey, why should there be any spectators allowed to line the roads at all? Can't we just close the stages to spectators? That's safer!" Or they might suggest something ridiculous, like, say, an average speed limit.

Anyway, the point is, I don't think this road leads to motorsport being saved. Again, it seems like managed decline. The counterexample to all this is the Isle of Man TT, in which multiple competitors die literally every year, and yet the event is as popular as ever (with the crowds, the riders, and the sponsors) and as far as I know there's no issue with insurance.

[rallyfiend]

Name another sport that kills its fans?

Rallying (as whole) does. That's rare.

[AnttiL]

Name another sport that kills its fans?

Rallying (as whole) does. That's rare.
You could get hit by a baseball or a hockey puck or a spectator stand at an arena could collapse.

[macebig]

Are you guys seriously debating on those issues? I think that a heavy vehicle going the opposite direction in a live stage is a common big No, No right? Plus, spectators playing bullfight with rally cars is a another common No, No, don't you think?Ok, I see that for some it may be exciting or spectacular but it will only take one bad luck moment for rallying to be banned. Is it worth it? A few moments of adrenaline for a serious injury/death and significant consequences for the rest of rally fans. Just use your brain, people...

[steve.mandzij]

First off I just want to apologize again for the salty language earlier. That was not on.

As for the actual safety issues and the future of rallying, I think that it's a mistake to sacrifice the sport in any way for what we pretend will be a temporary change to get through a rough patch. I think this is a form of managed decline. It's a vicious cycle. Let's say you make things safer, but it requires some sacrifice to the sport. Pushing crowds back, for example, or requiring all four wheels to be on the car, or getting rid of Safari with its open roads. The result is that the sport is a bit safer, but also has fewer fans and fewer eyeballs. So there's less money, less manufacturer interest. Also, the culture around the sport demands ever-increasing safety, so whatever change you made is now the new normal, and anything less than that is seen as outrageously dangerous. For both of those reasons, there's less money to pay outrageous insurance fees. So you have to go even safer. Eventually someone asks, "hey, why should there be any spectators allowed to line the roads at all? Can't we just close the stages to spectators? That's safer!" Or they might suggest something ridiculous, like, say, an average speed limit.

Anyway, the point is, I don't think this road leads to motorsport being saved. Again, it seems like managed decline. The counterexample to all this is the Isle of Man TT, in which multiple competitors die literally every year, and yet the event is as popular as ever (with the crowds, the riders, and the sponsors) and as far as I know there's no issue with insurance.
It's nice you realized you'd been "hostile" :)

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[AnttiL]

Pushing crowds back, for example, or requiring all four wheels to be on the car, or getting rid of Safari with its open roads. The result is that the sport is a bit safer, but also has fewer fans and fewer eyeballs. So there's less money, less manufacturer interest.
How do you prove that more safety results in less interest in rallying? The world has changed since the 80's and 90's. Car sales numbers are going down and even brands go bankrupt. Driving is not cool anymore. Furthermore, I don't see anymore those tobacco sponsors who probably brought a lot of money to the sport in the earlier decades.

[ToKu]

Sonnybobiche probably made at least one good point. Rallies are losing fans and media interest (based on my observations)

I do not have statistical data, but is it not rally Poland (along with perhaps very few other rallies) that is not losing fans and media interest? Based on my observations again - crowds of You guys, people from abroad are getting bigger and bigger every year. This year, for the first time in my life, I had a feeling that there are less Poles then foreigners.

As Sonnybobiche wrote earlier, but in other words. Ask yourself guys - What brought You here? Great stages or the opportunity to feel almost like group B emotions?

Safety first and above all attitude won't stop the trend (rallies less popular then before). IMHO there must be some golden medium between safety and lets call it emotions otherwise rallies will be just a niche in 10 to 20 years.

[Mirek]

The fact that rallying keeps loosing interested is related to the global changes in the population and the perception of cars and motorsport as a whole. Young people generally aren't very interested in cars or motorbikes like our fathers were. Today large majority of people don't understand a shit about cars. They buy them as a means of transport not as a part of the lifestyle like it used to be. It will get only worse with more and more automization and electronics inside them, the heavier and more restricted traffic etc.

[sonnybobiche]

But what is driving the trend in the perception of cars and motorsport? Well, one thing is probably super boring car design since the mid 2000s. But as far as the perception of motorsport, maybe kids these days are bored by it because a lot of it is really boring, because it's been sanitized to death. That is certainly true of F1 and virtually anything the FIA touches.

One motorsport that is definitely growing year on year, however, is MotoGP. Heck, I watch it and I don't even like motorcycles. The riders are gladiators. Everyone can see them doing their thing on the bike, not increasingly cocooned like in F1. There are big injuries literally all the time, yet no one complains it's unsafe. No safety car. Bike crashes, race keeps going while marshals take it away. Lots of teams and a big number of bikes in every race. Lots of upcoming young talented kids, with a direct path into the sport. No pay drivers. Talent is what's rewarded. Is it a coincidence that it's not run by FIA?

[racerx1979]

Interesting debate. I can see both sides even though I agree safety should be number one. This becomes even more important if you've ever competed in an event.

I recently spectated rally Australia last year and it was the biggest shit show. The spectating areas were the in worst locations. All straights or extremely slow corners. Was so boring we didn't even go on the last day and we won't be going back unless they sort things out. Finland on the other hand was extremely well organized. The spectators areas had plenty of room and some locations were perfect with jumps, crests etc. You just need to get in early since you're competing with shit loads of people for good spots haha.

Obviously there were serious issues with spectators in Poland. I've seen a ton of videos where people were standing at the edges of the road in a high speed section. You have to remember people get extremely excited and want to be close to the action... it's human nature, but in Finland they had several marshalls to control the crowds. It was obviously a combination of bad organization and crazy fans. In Finland my wife and I were at spectating area and an old gentleman was walking by and said "you know the cars are coming from the other direction? You should move across unless you want to get squished and pierced by carbon fiber and metal" we laughed and walked across because like a dummy I had no idea which way the cars were running. We ended up warning a few other spectators in the same manner and all was good.

In short what I'm saying is just go to Rally Finland (I'm going back because I'm dying to see the 2017 cars) and have all the other rally organizers learn from one the of the best spectator friendly rallies IMO.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

World Rallycross is also growing even though there are no driver's being injured and fans are safe in their stands..

Can we get this straight - increasing danger to anyone is not the way to grow rallying.

[AnttiL]

I wouldn't mind if Rally Poland was dropped and replaced with Rally New Zealand as a second fast gravel rally.

[racerx1979]

I love rallycross, but spectating at rallies is an experience which is so different from the traditional: sit in the stands and watch type of motorsport. I also think this is what hurts rally. Most people do not want to hike even 1km to find a spot and wait for a car to go by once maybe twice. I feel this is why organizers are trying to do fancy super special stages to attract crowds. Similar to what Mexico did even though it resulted in canceled stages etc. Watching live is also great, but I recently tried to get a friend into WRC and he laughed when I told
him to get WRC+ for a fee... just one example

[racerx1979]

I wouldn't mind if Rally Poland was dropped and replaced with Rally New Zealand as a second fast gravel rally.

Well New Zealand was already in the cards and I think Poland just handed it to them

[Jinu13]

I think this sort of thing happens and 10 times worse every day on WRC road sections. That camera card guy looked like he was trying to wave him out onto the road but did a sh*t job.

It would help if they didn't drive like, well rally drivers, between stages. Nearly got front ended by Tanak in Wales last year overtaking on a bend.

[Suusameister]

The fact that rallying keeps loosing interested is related to the global changes in the population and the perception of cars and motorsport as a whole. Young people generally aren't very interested in cars or motorbikes like our fathers were. Today large majority of people don't understand a shit about cars. They buy them as a means of transport not as a part of the lifestyle like it used to be. It will get only worse with more and more automization and electronics inside them, the heavier and more restricted traffic etc.

I don't think this is entirely true. In example the simracing scene is growing quite fast. Dirt 4 just came out and is possibly the best rally sim ever made. Also other sims - Asetto Corsa, rFactor, iRacing and so on. So the interest is there, it's just different. I would like the idea that in the future there be more cheap trackday cars and entry level rally cars for to much broader audience to enjoy themselves. Automated cars in traffic sounds logical, driving a supercar on a street is just silly, ofcourse the custom culture won't go anywhere.

[Simmi]

I guess the effort you need to put in to have an authentic rally experience is waaaay more than most other motorsports, let alone other sports. That gamer or esports fan is going to have to go way out of their comfort zone to visit the Welsh forests for example.

That's also the reason teams often struggle to get sponsors. It's pretty difficult to get any kind of in-event VIP experience compared to hosting clients at a race circuit or even WRX track.

[jparker]

I wouldn't mind if Rally Poland was dropped and replaced with Rally New Zealand as a second fast gravel rally.

Is that the goal of this discussion? Discredit rally Poland in favor of New Zeland?
Yes, rally poland has safety issues, but they are not much different from any rally. How many pictures of "idiots" we have in previous discussions? A lot. Why we had dead person at Monte Carlo? Because of good safety? This plot against Rally Poland is complete b****t.

[Mirek]

How many times in the last twenty years did a truck go on stage against the competitor? Maybe never until this weekend? If that's not a major safety fuck up what is?

[CoyoteVillagra]

Some press photos in high resolution



http://i.imgur.com/A7NPWSu.jpg




http://i.imgur.com/nrEhvIl.jpg




http://i.imgur.com/IW8pJTw.jpg




http://i.imgur.com/N5spQtr.jpg





http://i.imgur.com/PTP9sit.jpg




http://i.imgur.com/lqyEnNJ.jpg

[sonnybobiche]

How many times in the last twenty years did a truck go on stage against the competitor? Maybe never until this weekend? If that's not a major safety fuck up what is?

I mean, that's one lunatic fire truck driver. I'm not sure how the rally organizers could have reasonably predicted and avoided that situation. Seems like it could happen anywhere, given a sufficiently silly person at the wheel. Don't think it counts as evidence of a systematic failure at rally poland. It was a major fuck up, for sure, though.

[jparker]

How many times in the last twenty years did a truck go on stage against the competitor? Maybe never until this weekend? If that's not a major safety fuck up what is?
From the video we can't say.
Maybe fire truck driver wanted to just pass and park. I can't imagine driver being so retarded to drive against racing cars.
In any case, do you see this incident as more significant then the death in MC?
How many people called for scrapping it?
Dual standards, that's what you guys are doing here.

[AnttiL]

Is that the goal of this discussion? Discredit rally Poland in favor of New Zeland?

My point was just that we'd replace a fast gravel rally with a fast gravel rally, and I knew NZ was being planned for a comeback.

[KKS]

Time differences on PS are always very small. Road position difference between 4th or 6th on the road is probably negligible, but on gravel rallies there will always be huge difference between 1st and 3rd+.

That's why I find it outrageous that such an important point is not clearly defined in the rules... and even more outrageous that teams don't seem to complain loud about it. That said as far as I can see Poland is the first rally of the year where a Rally2 driver didn't go before "normal" drivers.
Poland was a first rally with just one rally2 driver and huge "normal" drivers.
So it's very easy to calculate.
If we have a 30 min regroup it can put rally2 driver ahead only if 7 "normal" drivers left
If regroup 45 min - 11 drivers.

[Mirek]

I mean, that's one lunatic fire truck driver. I'm not sure how the rally organizers could have reasonably predicted and avoided that situation. Seems like it could happen anywhere, given a sufficiently silly person at the wheel. Don't think it counts as evidence of a systematic failure at rally poland. It was a major fuck up, for sure, though.

You have obviously no idea how organization of such event works. The fire truck was part of the event emergency system and went there on someone's order. I'm sorry but such situation would mean serious consequences for the organization even on second league national level and is competely unacceptable on WRC level.


In any case, do you see this incident as more significant then the death in MC?

Yes, I do because this situation is a system failure while some spectator standing wrong is not always such case. I don't bash that much the spectator safety because I know how extremely difficult it is with spectators. You know in my country we have maybe the strcictest spectator regulation in Europe and still we had number of deadly accidents which were nearly in all cases caused by the spectators themselves because they simply ignored the organization.

[rallyfun]

those idiots from estonia are behind all this sh*t

[Mintexmemory]

Ok this has got out of hand - I shall just delete offensive posts if this continues -for or against.

Just putting * in a word doesn't make the sentence any less disrespectful!

[mknight]

Poland was a first rally with just one rally2 driver and huge "normal" drivers.
So it's very easy to calculate.
If we have a 30 min regroup it can put rally2 driver ahead only if 7 "normal" drivers left
If regroup 45 min - 11 drivers.


In Portugal Paddon got moved 16 places to start first. Cause the regroup was 1:15 long. Still this is just how things end up as they did for each rally. The important part is what Pluto said: "no rule says that Rally2 cars have to start first on PS"..... so it can end up as a mess if regroup is not long enough. If it was in the rules the organizer would just need to plan long enough regroup.

This whole Rally2 starting order is this year becoming seriously unfair business. Last year championship order was valid for Saturday as well so it did not show up. But this year on quite many rallies you have people that do their best to keep the car in the rally on friday, only to end up cleaning for 2 whole days. I wonder if at some point cars that loose lot of time to puncture/technical issues etc. end up retiring on purpose on last stage of friday, just to avoid it.

Just look at Breen in Poland. He lost tons of time with 2wd, so before last stage on Friday he was 7 mins behind nearest "M" nominated car in front of him. Extra 7 mins for retiring in one stage wouldn't change anything and he would avoid sweeping for 2 days.
I suppose they didn't do it for two reasons:
1. The car just in front of him was his teammate who still had a real chance of moving up (and did in the end)
2. Poland is certainly not the worst rally for roadsweeping, particularly with partly wet conditions.

Another thing is that on some rallies for saturday WRC trophy drivers would start first (Argentina) while on Sardinia, Portugal and in Poland they only turn around 2017 cars.

Why is all this important? Cause for the most part we have quite close championship as well as individual rallies, so the small differences from running order can have quite large impact. Given that it's not very good how randomly they are set-up.

[cali]

those idiots from estonia are behind all this sh*t
Excuse me? You obviously have never been spectating in our region then. Our spectating culture is more closer to finnish, although I cannot deny that we have some our own share of idiots as well. Specially when after the win in Sardinia suddenly everybody's a rallyfan.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[jparker]

Yes, I do because this situation is a system failure while some spectator standing wrong is not always such case. I don't bash that much the spectator safety because I know how extremely difficult it is with spectators. You know in my country we have maybe the strcictest spectator regulation in Europe and still we had number of deadly accidents which were nearly in all cases caused by the spectators themselves because they simply ignored the organization.

Sadly I can't disagree with that, but this alone should not be reason for canceling the event. If other "system failures" have taken place, then let the officials report it. If it's really that bad, then OK, cancel it.

[EstWRC]

Neuville vs Tänak comparison https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TwR1xsnVq4

[NickRally]

Name another sport that kills its fans?

Rallying (as whole) does. That's rare.

Football. Sadly this sport (for all sorts of reasons) is worse than even the Le Mans tragedy of 1955.

[PLuto]

Sadly I can't disagree with that, but this alone should not be reason for canceling the event. If other "system failures" have taken place, then let the officials report it. If it's really that bad, then OK, cancel it.

This "issue" with fire truck was only one stone in the mosaic. But whole safety on Rally Poland was real disaster in the last years, everybody (also from FIA) was talking about it and nothing changed. It is still the same punk and waiting for disaster...

[polomayu]

HI, after reading other members reports of Rallly poland, I will tell you our experience in our first visit tot Poland to see the wrc.

First of all, sorry for my english.

We bought the 4rstandardr allypasses and a parking stickar thaht was the only thinks we needed during the weekend.

Arrive at Varsovia at 2 o clock in the night between thursday and friday, so we didn't have time to do anything apart going to the first stage (chimelewo). We arrived there at the beggining of the stage, parked the car in the specattors parking and go on foot to the jumps, we saw people going to the fields, and some going by the road, 4 guys that were crossing a field and wanted to go to the rally road were intimidated by a local farmer with a stick and shouting, not very nice our first impression. During the way there i was so scared taht the marshalls wouldn't let people cross the road during the race, and this means that we couldn't get out from that stage to go to stare juchy. We were at the final jump before the left hander, while zero cars passing, ther were no people in the left field, but during the first cars passing, lot of people went to that field to see things closer (me too), and after some more cars i saw people crossing the road at the take off of the jump so then I realized taht we could get to stare Juchy and not to be locked in the stage. I arrrived in poland thinking that marshals would be very strict, and that was the first think than make me think a bit teh oposite. Ok we decide to move to the other stage and we went by the road, lots of people ther crossing the road and walking in the road between wrc cars, MARSHALLS COULDN'T DO ANYTHING TO THIS AMOUNT OF SpECTATORS. Lot of people standing next to the jumps, not more than 2 meters from the cars, that was very very crazy!!! Ok we reach the parking at the end and start going to stare juchy zone 29. First stage done, and we could saw it where we had planned, so evrything ok for the moment!

Arrived at stare juchy zone 29 parking, we parked in the field that was a bit of a downhill, maybe problems to get out? we would see that when we return from the stage, That parking was ok and There was a thing that I've seen in all the spectators zones in poland that i found very very useful, and i Haven't seen in other rallyies, the WC, we used them a lot of times so, thanks to the organitzation to put them there.
Ok we walk through the stage 40 minuts before first car and reach the spot we wanted, on the top of the field, we see a downhill, a straigtht jump, two little tricky jumps and another downhill with heavy cuts and a bit of watersplash. Very nice point of view!!! Also we managed to move a (i don't know the name, the thing from the farmers , that organitzators us to make the chicanes) and stand on the top of it for a greater view, it worked. In this stage I didn't see so much people standing problems like in the previous, but still peolpe very close to the cars in teh 200m across the forest section. After some wrc 2 cars we went to our car to start the way to chimelewo another time, so, 2nd stage that we could see the cars in the place we planned! To get out from the parking, we need to push the car but at least we get out!

So way to chimelewo zone 7, we stopped at stare juchy to buy some beer and food, and we take it very calmly, and while we were arriving to the spectator zone we saw that we were out of time, we saw the jam in the access of zone 7 and decided to go to the end of the stage to see the cars, even in road mode, but not got stuck in that access. And that was great, no stuck and the first marshall told us that stage was cancelled, and it was ok because we parked the car 50 meters before and we couls drive to stare juchy immediatly!! That was the first stage we planned to see that we couldn't see, but was not problem from us or access roads, was due to the amount of spectators.

We reach the same parking at the stare juchy zone 29, and went to more or less the same zone, that time my friend stayed to see the downhill after de 2 small jumps and i went to the downhill before the big one jump, in that zones there were no problems with the marshals if you didn't stay next to the road, so you could see in very good spots.

In that stage we saw almost all the cars! so· stagees seen in the places we planned! It was a very nice starting for our rally!!

After leaving stare juchy we made some rece at kruklanki zone 55 and 56, becaue our plan for staurday was to see 4 stages too.

Arrive at mikolajki at 10:30 and eat a pizza in the mainplace, next to the ceremony, 2 pizzas and 2 dishes for 100zpl so it wasn't expensive.

After that more or less at 12:00 we went to baranowo to make some recces to the specattor zone 35, we made it, and we slept in the parking zone next to that access, 2 of use slept ina tent and the other 2 slept in the car, so you can see that we ara not luxury people.






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHj74B3a9mQ&t=18s

[polomayu]

We got up on staurday, and it was sunny!!!!! best ever present!!!

Ok we eat something and went to the stage, we get to where we planned to see the cars, but this was one of the least spectaculars from the rally, but if you put that zone in other rallys i've been it could be one of the most spectaculars, i don't know if i have explained good.

Okei, we saw the wrc and some skodas during the way to the parking, and also when we were arriving to the car we heard and ambulance or something like that, we thought that something had happened and they cancelled the stage, but we were going to the other one (kruklanki), 1 day after we noticed, that it wasn't an ambulance, it was a fire truck, and that the stage wasn't cancelled, it was in running mode! crazy thing to believe.

Ok, firts stage of staurday watched in the palce we planned and now time for a 60 km road to kruklanki. We arrived ther with more or less 1 hour befor the first wrc arrives. We went to spectator zone 56 and walk in the opposite direction of the cars, we arrived where we planned and it was two fast and sideways turns after a little straight jump, but the action was in the left hander, That was so crazy!! There we saw almost all the cars.

Before see that stage we deceided that the afternoon stages won't be baranowo-kruklanki like in the morning, people from galicia the day before told us that from pozedrze to kruklanki ther was less time but also ther was much less distance. So after first pass for kruklanki, we decided to go to pozezdre spectator zone 21, we thought that we would have time to stop and buy something for lunch, but we saw the jam between the two spectators zones and decided not to stop, the access of pozedzre was so much filled of spectators, lots and lots of cars parked in a narrow road, we maged to park the car in front of a house 1 km more or less begore reach the stage.
This was the first stage we went without knowing any places, so we improvized, arrived at the stage and we saw a heavy downhill at our left, we decided to walk ther and then we saw jumps abit more to the left, so we decided to spectate that from very far, but we could saw the main action!! The plan was clear, saw the wrcs and run run run to the car to not got stucked. And was like that, we got some cars before us but a lot of people was behind so, with fortune we didn't got very stucked, and there started our way to kruklanki zone 55.

for being a stage that we didn't know anything we could see lot of actions in the jumps, so we were happy and hoping to see a good spot in kruklanki to complete the day!!!!

We arrived at kruklanki 55 and parked the car in a parking 500 m to the stage, 40 minuts before the first wrc. So it was everything going weel to complete the day, we were at the sopt that mikkelsen give a huge cut 2 or three years ago, we climbed some (i don't know the name, the thing from the farmers , that organitzators us to make the chicanes), 40 people there, estonians, finns and locals, and us, everyone could see the stage with a super view, we saw the cars coming without jumping but taking an insane left hander and hearing them going flat out for some time, it was also a great place!!!! we saw some wrc2 and went to the car because it started to rain.

So in day 2 we managed to see 3 stages were we planned and a stge improvizing the place but it was still very spectacular!!! so very good day!! No marshall problems in any stage!!

We took the car and decided to go to mikolajki to the assistance, there were a very big jam, but this is wrc and we had finished our plan for staurday so there was no problem. we arrived at mikolajki to see the service, first time i see a service working, we saw tanak and neuvilles reapairs and also could talk very familiar to nil solans about how was going his rally, thank you very much to him to gave us some time!!!

After service we went to have dinner at a place next to the day before, 4 dishes, dessert and coffes were 200 zpl this time, more expensive than the day before, but still very good prize.
After that we went to recce the last part of paprotki, but the access was cut, so we parked and camped near the specattor zone access 72.

Good 2nd day!!

Got up and went to the special stage, rain again, we reach to the end of the stage to see the last jumps, but we didn't see so much properly, the jump we saw better was the less spectacular of the three, big disappointing to see tanak going crashed and slowly, after the stage we went to see tanak's car at the end of the stage, and 40 minutes more or less before the power stage we start walking to find another place, we stayed on a dunghill jajaj, but we saw very good place, small jump, pass straight of us and another jump , we watched wrc and run to the car to go to the airport to warsaw to catch the plane.

So day 3 was more or less what we ecpected and we saw the palces we wanted but not so close to the road that we wanted, but is very comprensible in the end of the power stage!

So we were a bit afraid about how rally will go for us before flying to poland, but it was super super good!!

Say thanks to the galicia people that told me about making pozedrze- kruklanki, to the girl who catched my friend lost phone and returned to us at night, to mindaugas who let me use his tripod without knowing me, to the canary ones with ones we had laughs in the first pass of the paprotki stage, and big thanks to the organitzation to put WC in every stages, i use them a lot!!!

So, new rally, and not so difficult to spectate, and also GOOD SHOW FROM THE SPECTATOR ZONE IN SAFETY PLACES!!!!!!

9 stages, that would been 10 if chimelewo wasn't cancelled.

Here I share our 2 minutes youtube video with the best pass of each stage!!

[br21]

it's not easy to judge rally poland. as:
- most spectators like it as it's one of most spectacular events (also because of poor safety standards), also relatively cheap to watch and with relatively easy access (cheap flights, not super long drive, etc)
- most of the drivers like it, they love the roads, they of course complain about safety and this year about road conditions, but that was mostly due the weather
- teams like the market and relative OK costs, don't like the organization
- it's quite poorly organized (at least service park was improved in last few years)
- safety standards are way below the acceptable level. honestly it's not easy to control all the fans (many of them drinking, and not only polish people drunk unfortunately), but things like with fireman truck should never happen
- organizers tend to look to much into money, so spectator control is not their main objective, they focus more on tickets, car parks located far away, VIP zones, etc, etc,

I work every year during many WRC, ERC and national events and it's never fully easy to judge event 100%. There are always pros and cons. If they want to stay in WRC obviously they need to improve safety standards/spectator control.

Truth is that most of the people who complain and speak most loudly about very bad safety know the event only from the videos, most people who visited the event they like this poor safety standards even when they don't speak it loudly... they also most of the time try to stand as close to the action as possible, try to make good pictures or videos... so it's quite complicated subject... Of course I'm not saying it's good, but it's like it looks most of the time...

[EstWRC]

another small comparison https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB7fQ6-_CfQ

[janvanvurpa]

How many times in the last twenty years did a truck go on stage against the competitor? Maybe never until this weekend? If that's not a major safety fuck up what is?


Never? Ha! 1987 Olympus WRC rally FIRST!!!! gravel stage Marku Alen meets a Toyota pickup fortunately at opposite ends of long straight....An old acquaintance of mine driving....
(he was Finish Control Captain..)
.BOTH zero cars driven by TV stars (who replaced the local guys who were close friends and who had spent months pre-running and checking the route, and who had plenty of gravel experience but who literally the morning of Day 1 were told they would be replaced---the one TV guy was Richard Dean Anderson aka "McGyver") which had BOTH stuff and rolled within 20m of each other.They had ZERO gravel and ZERO "competition driving experience...when they flipped and tore off radio antenna no word reached either Finish Control or StartControl..
20 minutes delay and rally organiser John Nagel orders Finish Control Captain to head BACK down stage to find out where missing 0 cars were but then somehow, Marku is started..
Total chaos....there is video of Marku at next service in Shelton, Washington in a rage..
The "Chief of Zero Cars" , a close friend Rod Johnson got a small fracture of the skull...for him no great danger.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Following year if my 30 year old memory poor Marku in NZ WRC meets a car and caravan head on on a stage..

So technically you said 20 and these were 30, but it does happen and the real story is always worse..

In "Oh-limp-wrist" rally the story was hushed up...My Finish Control Captain shut up who he was and pretended to be a lost local becuase he knew it was a SERIOUS fuck up and reflect very badly (even if truthfully) on the Olympus Rally Committee.

[EstWRC]

welcome to Ford repair shop poland :rotflmao: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-nTZyQngYM

[AnttiL]

Following year if my 30 year old memory poor Marku in NZ WRC meets a car and caravan head on on a stage..

Or the year before? I remember that it was on the Delta S4, in 1986.

Great story about Olympus!

[racerx1979]

Football. Sadly this sport (for all sorts of reasons) is worse than even the Le Mans tragedy of 1955.

The NFL is the states is responsible for a ton of brain related injuries. Most die several years after they retire, but live shortened lives due to cranial impact.

[KKS]

In Portugal Paddon got moved 16 places to start first. Cause the regroup was 1:15 long.

Another thing is that on some rallies for saturday WRC trophy drivers would start first (Argentina) while on Sardinia, Portugal and in Poland they only turn around 2017 cars.

Why is all this important? Cause for the most part we have quite close championship as well as individual rallies, so the small differences from running order can have quite large impact. Given that it's not very good how randomly they are set-up.
Yes, a longer re-group will make possible to run rally2 cars ahead on PS.

About better retire and get +10 min at last stage... it's too big time loose. Will much better "be late on TC" at the morning and have nice road position. With 2min intervals theoretically you can gain 30 positions (10min penalty it's a 60min late on to TC), practically - 15 position (if late on TC >30min it's a retirement)
And Breen can play this game on Sunday. But it's a Pandora's box.

In Argentina it's only Gorban who in WRC-T, and he retire on SS4 so Sat and Sun it's only WRC17 cars.
In Sporting regulations WRC-T drivers should run as merged group after P1 WRC17 drivers and they didn't change from 01-01-2017

[dimviii]

https://youtu.be/WyguJ--eT3c

[rhm]

Colin Clark's thoughts on Rally Poland:
https://www.facebook.com/voiceofrally/posts/785065031656162

[[WRCRR]]

Never? Ha! 1987 Olympus WRC rally FIRST!!!! gravel stage Marku Alen meets a Toyota pickup fortunately at opposite ends of long straight....An old acquaintance of mine driving....
(he was Finish Control Captain..)
.BOTH zero cars driven by TV stars (who replaced the local guys who were close friends and who had spent months pre-running and checking the route, and who had plenty of gravel experience but who literally the morning of Day 1 were told they would be replaced---the one TV guy was Richard Dean Anderson aka "McGyver") which had BOTH stuff and rolled within 20m of each other.They had ZERO gravel and ZERO "competition driving experience...when they flipped and tore off radio antenna no word reached either Finish Control or StartControl..
20 minutes delay and rally organiser John Nagel orders Finish Control Captain to head BACK down stage to find out where missing 0 cars were but then somehow, Marku is started..
Total chaos....there is video of Marku at next service in Shelton, Washington in a rage..
The "Chief of Zero Cars" , a close friend Rod Johnson got a small fracture of the skull...for him no great danger.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Following year if my 30 year old memory poor Marku in NZ WRC meets a car and caravan head on on a stage..

So technically you said 20 and these were 30, but it does happen and the real story is always worse..

In "Oh-limp-wrist" rally the story was hushed up...My Finish Control Captain shut up who he was and pretended to be a lost local becuase he knew it was a SERIOUS fuck up and reflect very badly (even if truthfully) on the Olympus Rally Committee.

Thanks for this great story, had never before heard about this incident at Olympus Rally. Luckily nothing worse happened!

[JUF]

As we see here, things like in Poland can also happen in circuit racing in Germany :eek:: https://twitter.com/GirlsLikeRacing/status/883400143994634240 I´m pretty sure she would have died here :(.

[Mirek]

Just... wow. Hard to say anything.

[sonnybobiche]

Colin Clark's thoughts on Rally Poland:
https://www.facebook.com/voiceofrally/posts/785065031656162

This guy is such a bullshitter. He's shocked! Shocked, I say! By spectator behavior that was considered extremely tame just a decade ago. Like honestly, give me a break.

Kicking Poland out of the WRC is obviously a scheme to get another rally in its place that is favored for commercial reasons. I don't know which, but odds are it will be a huge mistake.

Poland has actual rally fans. Every time you treat the fans like crap, you weaken the sport. Every time you make the show worse in exchange for some marginal improvement in safety, you weaken the sport. And make no mistake, this is a sport that is extremely weak right now. It's getting better, but still in critical shape.

There's some unbelievable arrogance among the teams, the promoter, and the FIA rally people. They must be under the impression that they're running F1. But they aren't.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

This guy is such a bullshitter. He's shocked! Shocked, I say! By spectator behavior that was considered extremely tame just a decade ago. Like honestly, give me a break.

Kicking Poland out of the WRC is obviously a scheme to get another rally in its place that is favored for commercial reasons. I don't know which, but odds are it will be a huge mistake.

Poland has actual rally fans. Every time you treat the fans like crap, you weaken the sport. Every time you make the show worse in exchange for some marginal improvement in safety, you weaken the sport. And make no mistake, this is a sport that is extremely weak right now. It's getting better, but still in critical shape.

There's some unbelievable arrogance among the teams, the promoter, and the FIA rally people. They must be under the impression that they're running F1. But they aren't.

How is a huge accident with fans killed and injured going to strengthen this 'weak' sport ? It will do the opposite and end up with another ban.

I attended rallies in the UK in the 1980's with Group B cars and they were awesome. But the fans watched from safe places and there was no problem.

Group B was banned after the idiots in other countries wouldn't behave. Driver's refused to continue on some events because of the danger. Ultimately fans were killed, and drivers.

No-one wants that again !

[AnttiL]

This guy is such a bullshitter. He's shocked! Shocked, I say!

I would say the same of you

[N.O.T]

As we see here, things like in Poland can also happen in circuit racing in Germany :eek:: https://twitter.com/GirlsLikeRacing/status/883400143994634240 I´m pretty sure she would have died here :(.

some years back a group of low life degenerate chavs in a golf entered the brands hatch circuit while a race went on.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp1lF0bmBCw

and in typical british autism fashion the driver just got a slap on the wrist....

[GigiGalliNo1]

NZ has fans... many rally fans and compared to Australians they actually know the sport

[racerx1979]

Kiwis are hardcore. Just look at the NZ rally series. They have a ton of small manufacturers sponsoring AP4 spec rally machines which are similar to R5 but a bit more open. Mazda, Toyota, Mini, Holden and a few others running that series. Entries are usually close to triple digits. Another reason why we will most likely move out of Sydney for New Zealand. They love Motorsport and they have gravel roads for days which are always open to the public for testing. Rally paradise playground! Kiwis are also the nices most respectful people I've come across in all my travels.

[AnttiL]

I watched the highlights clip on a train trip and noticed that there were absolutely no footage or mention of Lefebvre or Hänninen. Also, Evans and Østberg were only covered in an aerial special and Mikkelsen only on two of his four offs on the rally. Is this a message to the teams? Win it or bin it, or be no one? As much as I've disliked Lefebvre, his clean drive was worth a mention. The clipping of the fence pole would have been spectacular but perhaps FIA doesn't want that to be emphasized, as it's basically dangerous?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

WRC TV coverage is generally so poor that they dont convey the true speed and excitement of the sport.

Hence the official event 'highlights' are mainly a collection of clips of accidents & breakdowns in an attempt to be interesting.

[racerx1979]

Hanninen rarely gets a mention. To be honest all the WR drivers are extremely talented and should get decent air time. Leferve should have also received some air time considering he was the fastest Citroen and his car did not inlude any jokers... that's an interesting story by itself.

Wonder how many chances Hanninen has before he's on the cutting block. Does anyone think he can recover this late in that season? Will a few podiums secure his seat for next year?

[AnttiL]

Hence the official event 'highlights' are mainly a collection of clips of accidents & breakdowns in an attempt to be interesting.

Sorry, I meant the whole 45 minute event highlights video. It covered well the incidents in top 5 and gave Suninen plenty of air time, but not much more

[Fast Eddie WRC]

45 mins wont do justice to a WRC rally anyway. Back in the day even a national rally got an hour !

Just another sign of the WRC being dumbed-down... sprint rallies get sprint tv coverage.

[mknight]

To be honest all the WR drivers are extremely talented and should get decent air time. Leferve should have also received some air time considering he was the fastest Citroen and his car did not inlude any jokers... that's an interesting story by itself.


True there were a lot of drivers that could at least get one-sentence mention. Lefevbre certainly could get mentioned for best result of the year and one of best Citroen results one rally after being dropped by the team. (should be interesting angle for brit. jurnos)

But the story about jokers is not especially interesting. The changes they did were supposed to make the car easier to control, not faster (i.e. not like they changed the engine or something). So you had Breen and Lefevbre driving a car they have been driving for half a year and testing for longer and Mikkelsen driving a "new" car where they didn't had chance to do any wet test/setup at all.
Btw. on Sardinia Ogier's car was suppoed to have some dif. upgrade which Tanak couldn't get... and Tanak won.




Wonder how many chances Hanninen has before he's on the cutting block. Does anyone think he can recover this late in that season? Will a few podiums secure his seat for next year?

No, too late, only thing that would save him now is 3x solid finishes (5th and up) in a row, that's something I see as virtually impossible. Lappi has been clearly faster than him in Sardinia and about same speed in Portugal, now in Poland even Suninen was faster. Not the mention 2 Citroens. Yes he had some technical issues but it's not like he was fast inbetween, for whole saturday and sunday best were 2 9th places.

It was quite a risk from Tommi in the first place, but Hanninen was available and had some wrc experience to complement Lappi and Sunninen (at that point). He will certainly let him drive rest of the rallies this year, but I do think somebody else will be signing a contract for that spot. Given what Latvala has shown with the car I totally can see better drivers than Hanninen being interested (Tanak, Mikkelsen, maybe even Ogier, + Suninen will likely be available).

[dimviii]

The changes they did were supposed to make the car easier to control, not faster (i.e. not like they changed the engine or something)

easier to control=faster.

[Zeakiwi]

Kiwis are hardcore. Just look at the NZ rally series. They have a ton of small manufacturers sponsoring AP4 spec rally machines which are similar to R5 but a bit more open. Mazda, Toyota, Mini, Holden and a few others running that series. Entries are usually close to triple digits. Another reason why we will most likely move out of Sydney for New Zealand. They love Motorsport and they have gravel roads for days which are always open to the public for testing. Rally paradise playground! Kiwis are also the nices most respectful people I've come across in all my travels.

A few points. The current Australian wrc round is held at Coffs Harbour which is 600? kilometres north of Sydney.
NZ has lost some of the classic gravel road stages used in past wrc years, the roads have been tar sealed.
I suspect the 2 day 'candidate' event planned for NZ this year is likely to have a moderate amount of touring distance between the special stages. A three day event would likely have a lengthy touring section (by comparison to most current wrc events) at some point in order to get the quality stages and stage distance and possibly require a remote refuel, service, tyre change. The candidate event is Tauranga based which has not been used since 1979 (overnight rest stop) in a wrc (previously mostly Rotorua was used in the area)
I hope the nz motorsport officials do some more spectator education before the (and if the wrc returns) because the wrc is likely to attract new NZ spectators to the stages who have not rally spectated before. (Spectator incidents in NZ for wrc before - McRae hitting the spectator, Auriol near miss with spectator walking across the road in rain storm etc)

[Mk2 RS2000]

A few points. The current Australian wrc round is held at Coffs Harbour which is 600? kilometres north of Sydney.
NZ has lost some of the classic gravel road stages used in past wrc years, the roads have been tar sealed.
I suspect the 2 day 'candidate' event planned for NZ this year is likely to have a moderate amount of touring distance between the special stages. A three day event would likely have a lengthy touring section (by comparison to most current wrc events) at some point in order to get the quality stages and stage distance and possibly require a remote refuel, service, tyre change. The candidate event is Tauranga based which has not been used since 1979 (overnight rest stop) in a wrc (previously mostly Rotorua was used in the area)
I hope the nz motorsport officials do some more spectator education before the (and if the wrc returns) because the wrc is likely to attract new NZ spectators to the stages who have not rally spectated before. (Spectator incidents in NZ for wrc before - McRae hitting the spectator, Auriol near miss with spectator walking across the road in rain storm etc)

Approximate distances from Tauranga to Rotorua 55km, Coromandel 70km, Tokaroa 80km, Raglan 120km, Motu 140km. each of those areas has a number of special stage type roads available. The hub for the Raglan stages could be a lot closer to Hamilton than out on the coast and would reduce quite a bit of traveling. We were spoilt for road choice when we ran three days out of Rotorua. Tauranga is a perfect base for a NZ WRC event.

[racerx1979]

Ive spectated Rally Aus twice in Coffs. Its nowhere near as good as Finland, Germany, Sweden or Mexico. They need to work on better spectator areas

[N.O.T]

another Sintra type event will not be tolerated by the FIA or the suits at other motorsport associations and their insurers.

Insurers...

British autism intensifies....

use bogey times...

LOL

[Allez Andruet]

Poland has actual rally fans.
Fans? You call them fans? Ok, after reading your completely retard posts it's somewhat understandable you call them fans, but listen, true rally fans NEVER risk the reputation of their beloved sport by spectating in places where these so-called fans (i.e. idiots) were standing in Poland. End of story.

[JUF]

Fans? You call them fans? Ok, after reading your completely retard posts it's somewhat understandable you call them fans, but listen, true rally fans NEVER risk the reputation of their beloved sport by spectating in places where these so-called fans (i.e. idiots) were standing in Poland. End of story. It's pretty much the same as in my home city Hamburg over the last few days (sorry for that comparison). 95% people are peaceful and respectful, 5% are just idiots. And these iditios let the other 95% look like they're idiots aswell. You have to be able to differentiate.
So yes, there are real Polish fans who would never risk the reputation of our sport. But yes, you're right, there are also others (these 5% idiots) who aren't real fans at all. And the organisers HAVE TO BE ABLE to stop them (just as the police should be able to stop violent demonstrants). That's absolutely true.

[Kris82]

Fans standing in dangerous places is a problem of each and every rally. If Poland get kicked out of the calendar, make sure you kick out Mexico as well. Plenty of video footage showing people laying on the inside of the corners inches from passing rally cars. And let's not forget Monte and the death of a fan there. At least in Poland nobody has died in the past years. I'd personally love to see all you smart asses out there as stewards trying to contain a large group of people and see how well you do.

I wouldn't mind Poland dropping out of the calendar. I think home countries of drivers / teams should have priority and it would be nice to see a rally in Estonia instead of Poland.

[sonnybobiche]

You people are PRETENDING that there is such a thing as a 'safe' place to stand vs an 'unsafe' place, as if it's a completely binary distinction. That's ludicrous. You know as well as I do that some places are safer than others, but there's no way spectating a rally is as safe as watching it on TV. There is ALWAYS a possibility that a driver may lose control, or something breaks on the car, and the car is sent into an unexpected place. Hell, a rock can be kicked up an hit you in the head. I remember some spectators pushing Tanak out of some ruts a few years ago and Tanak hitting the gas, sending gravel spraying right into someone's head, just inches away. I was kind of amazed the guy didn't lose an eye, to be honest.

You need to admit that motorsport is INHERENTLY dangerous. As in, there is no form of motorsport that is as safe as not having motorsport. Only then can we have a rational debate about what spectator behavior should be like. As of right now, you people are winning a debate by simply repeating a lie agreed upon by all.

[Munkvy]

You people are PRETENDING that there is such a thing as a 'safe' place to stand vs an 'unsafe' place, as if it's a completely binary distinction. That's ludicrous. You know as well as I do that some places are safer than others, but there's no way spectating a rally is as safe as watching it on TV. There is ALWAYS a possibility that a driver may lose control, or something breaks on the car, and the car is sent into an unexpected place. Hell, a rock can be kicked up an hit you in the head. I remember some spectators pushing Tanak out of some ruts a few years ago and Tanak hitting the gas, sending gravel spraying right into someone's head, just inches away. I was kind of amazed the guy didn't lose an eye, to be honest.

You need to admit that motorsport is INHERENTLY dangerous. As in, there is no form of motorsport that is as safe as not having motorsport. Only then can we have a rational debate about what spectator behavior should be like. As of right now, you people are winning a debate by simply repeating a lie agreed upon by all.

Don't be such a condescending idiot. People don't come on this forum to be spoken to like you are, grow up and show some respect. We are all (hopefully) here as we are fans of the greatest sport - Rallying.

Everyone knows there is an element of risk in spectating, that's probably why it appeals to some people. But as a spectator everyone has a degree of responsibility to not stand somewhere stupid, like the outside of a corner, or at the end of a braking zone etc. I think you will find everyone agrees that there is inherent danger of being at a rally, and then there is just plain stupid.

Some of the footage from Poland (plus the feedback from teams) showed people standing in stupid places, and more so than any other recent rallies. When combining that behaviour with the fact that they were already warned by the FIA previously about safety, it seems rational to conclude they stand a good chance of being dropped, due to being more dangerous than other rallies...

[Kris82]

Don't be such a condescending idiot. People don't come on this forum to be spoken to like you are, grow up and show some respect. We are all (hopefully) here as we are fans of the greatest sport - Rallying.


First calls a guy a condescending idiot and then tells him to grow up and show some respect. You, sir have issues and should focus on sorting those out before lecturing others. Best way to teach others is to lead by example.

[sonnybobiche]

Some of the footage from Poland (plus the feedback from teams) showed people standing in stupid places, and more so than any other recent rallies. When combining that behaviour with the fact that they were already warned by the FIA previously about safety, it seems rational to conclude they stand a good chance of being dropped, due to being more dangerous than other rallies...

First of all, you're claiming, again, a binary distinction between a 'stupid' place to stand and a 'not stupid' place to stand. I don't think that is really accurate. Some people are willing to tolerate more risk than others. Many people would not be willing to stand along a fast straight, for example, but others would be comfortable there. Risk assessment is a personal thing. The organization can dictate whether certain risks are permissible or not, but is dishonest to pretend that it is anything other than an arbitrary distinction.

Second of all, one of the big complaints made by the media refers to spectators standing too close to the road, period. I'm thinking of this quote from David Evans' autosport piece "Crews were incensed at safety breaches on the stages, with spectators overpowering the marshals to stand just inches away from cars passing at competitive speeds." Yes, david, if by inches you mean feet, and if you ignore the fact that this was along a straight, then that sounds really dangerous. But it probably wasn't too too dangerous, as evidenced by the fact that no one was hit by a car.

I read this piece, again by evans, and I'm left wondering what was so dangerous about the spectators' behavior. https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/columns/all-thats-wrong-with-rally-poland/

Looking at Evans' own pictures, the crowd was like 10 feet back at first, and after seeing three or four cars pass at competitive speeds, the crowd collectively came to the conclusion that they were stupidly far away and came to within 3 or 4 feet of the cars. And still, no one was hurt. What is the problem with this? Why is 10 feet back and behind the trees considered "safe", but 3-4 feet away from the road considered an unacceptable danger? I suspect it's because there's a group of people that want to replace Rally Poland with something else, presumably NZ.

Now, I wouldn't have a problem with making some arbitrary distinction between acceptable and unacceptable places to stand if I thought the rules would stay the same from now on. But it's clear that there's a push from the ruling class of motorsport and governments to make things safer and safer, and I think there's no limiting principle to that. It used to be that standing a few feet away was acceptable. Now it's behind the trees. Eventually there will be no spectating allowed. And not long after that, I think there won't be any rallying allowed, period. You have to have some principles. Arbitrarily deciding what is considered too dangerous today is not a principle.

[Lundefaret]

You people are PRETENDING that there is such a thing as a 'safe' place to stand vs an 'unsafe' place, as if it's a completely binary distinction. That's ludicrous. You know as well as I do that some places are safer than others, but there's no way spectating a rally is as safe as watching it on TV. There is ALWAYS a possibility that a driver may lose control, or something breaks on the car, and the car is sent into an unexpected place. Hell, a rock can be kicked up an hit you in the head. I remember some spectators pushing Tanak out of some ruts a few years ago and Tanak hitting the gas, sending gravel spraying right into someone's head, just inches away. I was kind of amazed the guy didn't lose an eye, to be honest.

You need to admit that motorsport is INHERENTLY dangerous. As in, there is no form of motorsport that is as safe as not having motorsport. Only then can we have a rational debate about what spectator behavior should be like. As of right now, you people are winning a debate by simply repeating a lie agreed upon by all.

Jumping of a cliff is INHERENTLY dangerous. Thats why the people who spend their past time doing it wears a parachute. This brings the risk down to an acceptable level for them.

Rallying is not conducted in a vacuum, and the acceptable risk level is set by several parties. So even though it's impossible to remove all risk for spectators, whit out removing them from the stages like in Japan, risk management is very possible, but it's also very, very difficult. And it's a difficult balance between keeping the spectators safe, and letting them take part in the action.
And I understand what you are trying to say, because if we remove to much of the risk, we are at risk of removing to much of the experience.

[tommeke_B]

Seems like an endless discussion here. @sonnybobiche, your argument that "it probably wasn't too dangerous, as evidenced by the fact that no one was hit by a car" is rubbish... In the group B era there were many events that didn't involve accidents, that doesn't mean they were always safe... Your point of view (that you should rely on people's own common sense, and if they are wrong, bad for them) is wrong in every way. Remember that in big sports events there are always people attending who are new to the sport and cannot estimate the risks. I think both Sweden and Finland are quite good with their public areas, they are very safe, and have a good point of view. And there's one of the major issues in Poland, on many places, if you are behind the tape the organizers have put, you don't have a good view anymore. So it's more tempting for spectators to ignore those rules. A second big problem in Poland is that they use very inexperienced marshalls. Many young people (around 20 years old) who have never seen a rally in real life. How can they estimate what's dangerous and what's not? And moreover, how can they take charge of all those spectators, being so inexperienced? If I'm right, in Finland, every stage is organized by a smaller organization, for example from a local rally. On every place I've ever been in Finland the marshalls seemed to be more experienced and they knew how to handle situations. I think Poland could be a great event, and thanks to the large open fields I'm sure you could combine both good spectator experience and safety. On some places we were 15 to 20 meters in a field, but we had a great view. With some investment in some better (sometimes more reasonable) public areas/better taping, cutting long grass if needed etc. they could have the best WRC event.

[sonnybobiche]

Seems like an endless discussion here. @sonnybobiche, your argument that "it probably wasn't too dangerous, as evidenced by the fact that no one was hit by a car" is rubbish... In the group B era there were many events that didn't involve accidents, that doesn't mean they were always safe...

I mean, either they were extremely improbably lucky for several years, or the danger was slightly overstated. When you hear Group B talked about these days, they make it sound like someone was dying every two or three events. But as far as I'm aware, between 1982 and 1986 there was only ever one fatal incident involving spectators. Three spectators were killed in Portugal 86. And they would have been killed just the same today had a 2017 car gone off and they'd been standing in the same place. More to the point, I don't think the spectator behavior was markedly different from what you would see 10 or 15 years later. Look at that famous stage from Portugal 1997. Road completely thick with spectators. Yet in all those years there was just one other fatal incident-- Finland 1996, where the spectators were placed well back. Accidents happen, as they did in 1986, or in 1996, or in 2017. Motorsport is inherently dangerous. It can either be dangerous for the drivers only (as is mostly the case in circuit racing, or it can be dangerous for drivers and spectators, as it is with a spectator participation sport like rally.) But if a spectator chooses to attend a rally, he is implicitly accepting that risk.





Your point of view (that you should rely on people's own common sense, and if they are wrong, bad for them) is wrong in every way. Remember that in big sports events there are always people attending who are new to the sport and cannot estimate the risks.

I think, generally speaking, people are pretty good at estimating their own level of risk exposure. They can sometimes get it wrong (in either direction) if they're not informed, but that's why it's the duty of other, more informed spectators to educate them.

However, most people are also generally willing to accept a higher level of risk than would be considered rational by an outside observer. A big part of that is because the outside observer is not getting the benefit of the experience. All they see is the risk, and they think "that's crazy." Much like if people watch a video of someone skydiving, to most people it looks really dangerous and stupid, and they say "I would never do that." Probably a lot of them think "that should be banned." But should those people be able to decide what level of risk others should be permitted to expose themselves to?

I don't see how that ends in anything but misery. As soon as government and quasi-government organizations get to decide what risks are acceptable for us, we've started down a road that ends in no smoking, no trans fats, eventually no tanning beds, no drinking, no skydiving, and really no genuine freedom. And certainly no motorsports.

We are fans of an inherently risky activity. If government bureaucrats are allowed to have their way, they will get rid of us completely (as they have recently come close to doing in the UK, and will probably manage eventually). We have to draw firm lines based on real principles, not just react to cultural and governmental pressure.

[Rallyper]

First of all, you're claiming, again, a binary distinction between a 'stupid' place to stand and a 'not stupid' place to stand. I don't think that is really accurate. Some people are willing to tolerate more risk than others. Many people would not be willing to stand along a fast straight, for example, but others would be comfortable there. Risk assessment is a personal thing. The organization can dictate whether certain risks are permissible or not, but is dishonest to pretend that it is anything other than an arbitrary distinction.

Second of all, one of the big complaints made by the media refers to spectators standing too close to the road, period. I'm thinking of this quote from David Evans' autosport piece "Crews were incensed at safety breaches on the stages, with spectators overpowering the marshals to stand just inches away from cars passing at competitive speeds." Yes, david, if by inches you mean feet, and if you ignore the fact that this was along a straight, then that sounds really dangerous. But it probably wasn't too too dangerous, as evidenced by the fact that no one was hit by a car.

I read this piece, again by evans, and I'm left wondering what was so dangerous about the spectators' behavior. https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/columns/all-thats-wrong-with-rally-poland/

Looking at Evans' own pictures, the crowd was like 10 feet back at first, and after seeing three or four cars pass at competitive speeds, the crowd collectively came to the conclusion that they were stupidly far away and came to within 3 or 4 feet of the cars. And still, no one was hurt. What is the problem with this? Why is 10 feet back and behind the trees considered "safe", but 3-4 feet away from the road considered an unacceptable danger? I suspect it's because there's a group of people that want to replace Rally Poland with something else, presumably NZ.

Now, I wouldn't have a problem with making some arbitrary distinction between acceptable and unacceptable places to stand if I thought the rules would stay the same from now on. But it's clear that there's a push from the ruling class of motorsport and governments to make things safer and safer, and I think there's no limiting principle to that. It used to be that standing a few feet away was acceptable. Now it's behind the trees. Eventually there will be no spectating allowed. And not long after that, I think there won't be any rallying allowed, period. You have to have some principles. Arbitrarily deciding what is considered too dangerous today is not a principle.

There are stupid places, and more stupid places. And safe places. In rallies in Sweden, Finland and everywhere. Spectators watching stages on stupid places seems to be more common in the Polish round. Don´t argue against that if you want to be seriously respected on this forum.

[sonnybobiche]

There are stupid places, and more stupid places. And safe places. In rallies in Sweden, Finland and everywhere. Spectators watching stages on stupid places seems to be more common in the Polish round. Don´t argue against that if you want to be seriously respected on this forum.

The truly "safe" places are hundreds of feet back, farther than what anyone would consider necessary today. Key word being today.

As for "stupid" places, is it "stupid" to be 3-4 feet away from the cars on a fast straight? Because that was called out as stupid by Evans and others in the media.

I don't much care for respect, but I do ask to be logically debated on the merit of the arguments, not how seemingly nice or popular an argument is.

[Munkvy]

First calls a guy a condescending idiot and then tells him to grow up and show some respect. You, sir have issues and should focus on sorting those out before lecturing others. Best way to teach others is to lead by example.

How so? I called him on his lecturing everyone, which is condescending. There are people on here in the rally industry, competitors and people working behind the scenes in rally teams and involved in running international events for many years at levels where they make a real difference and know what they are talking about, and he deems it necessary to lecture everyone about how they are all wrong, and he is the only one who can see what is right. Therefore I believe he needs to show the people he insults some respect. How does that cause me to have issues?

[tommeke_B]

Well, it is stupid to stand just next to the road in the outside of the exit of a corner that involves a sideways jump at 150kph. It is stupid to be sitting down with a camera in your hand in the inside of a fast blind corner where they cut on the edge of the road. It is stupid to stand against the road after a jump. It is stupid to be completely drunk and so close to the road. You don't need to argue about that. Rallying is never completely safe, after having visited more than 200 events I also had a close call with a car once, on a place I first thought was safe, that was 50 meters after a junction where the cars nearly stood still. Rallying always involves some danger, as you say. But in Poland some people seem to ask for it, and it must go wrong sooner or later. There's no point to debate that. What happened in Poland is not acceptable for a sport, and especially on this level. Besides that you shouldn't call people on this forum outside observers, some people you are talking to here have more experience in rallying than you can imagine. Talking for myself, I've been in Poland 3 times now, as a spectator, it was the 4th time I've seen the new WRC cars in action. It's the most spectacular event you can imagine, no need to debate that. But it could be just as exciting without having to risk your life.

[noel157]

The truly "safe" places are hundreds of feet back, farther than what anyone would consider necessary today. Key word being today.

As for "stupid" places, is it "stupid" to be 3-4 feet away from the cars on a fast straight? Because that was called out as stupid by Evans and others in the media.

I don't much care for respect, but I do ask to be logically debated on the merit of the arguments, not how seemingly nice or popular an argument is.

Kinda hard to follow your arguments at times. Inverted commas on various words like safe and stupid? What does that mean? Do you think it's safe to stand a metre from a speeding car?

[Marcco]

The truly "safe" places are hundreds of feet back, farther than what anyone would consider necessary today. Key word being today.

As for "stupid" places, is it "stupid" to be 3-4 feet away from the cars on a fast straight? Because that was called out as stupid by Evans and others in the media.

I don't much care for respect, but I do ask to be logically debated on the merit of the arguments, not how seemingly nice or popular an argument is.

Well, shit can happen even on long straights (hit a stone, loose a wing etc etc etc.) and the first few feet is the most dangerous place to be, because this is where the car can go a little wide or can be thrown while recovering from a slide. Standing 10 feet of the road might not save you as well, but it increases your survival chances significantly.
And, yes, motorsport will never be 100% safe, but it is always possible to minimize risks, without taking too much fun.

[Franky]

It's time to close this thread

[EstWRC]

Amen