Which driver can realistically fight for the Championship?

[smsgrafica]

Since the departure of VW and the new driver lineups that this will bring, I was thinking about which driver could realistically fight for the Championship considering his own abilities.

* * *
I'm speaking only about the driver's capabilities here, not the cars they'll be driving!
* * *

Ogier
Well, he's already won it 4 times, so he's a given.
YES

Meeke
He's really fast on every surface, but makes too many mistakes. He'd need to find way more consistency than he's shown so far to be a real contender.
PERHAPS

Neuville
He also is fast on every surface and in the second half of the 2016 season he's been as consistent as anyone. If he doesn't regress, he could deliver a WC.
YES

Latvala
Equally fast everywhere, but lacks mental strength. His form can be exceptional or lackluster during the same event, which doesn't bode well with the consistency needed for a title.
NO

Mikkelsen
He's a bit of an unknown. He's shown great speed on nearly every event, but he still has to prove if it was him or the car. For sure in 2016 he's been really consistent, also taking into account that he started 2nd on the road most of the time.
PERHAPS

Paddon
Very quick on gravel, but he's not so good on tarmac, which means he'd have to compensate for bad results in 3-4 rallies. I don't think he's a contender yet.
NO

Tanak
Great overall speed, but way too inconsistent. Sometimes he's on top, sometimes he's down the order and he doesn't know why.
NO

Sordo
He's consistent, very fast on tarmac, but a hit and miss on gravel. Not enough for a real chance on the WC.
NO

Ostberg, Camilli, Hänninen
Just too slow for being in the mix just for a win anywhere, so no chance here.
NO

[Andre Oliveira]

Simple, Ogier in whatever have 4 wheels. He is the best! Meeke failure in pressure, Latvala too. Neuville too irregular. Paddon too soon to fight like that. Tänak need win rallies first. The others? To weak....

[Franky]

Tanak
Great overall speed, but way too inconsistent. Sometimes he's on top, sometimes he's down the order and he doesn't know why.
NO


Have you heard of the magical black round things called Dmacks?

[BigWorm]

Meeke is too fast for himself to handle sometimes. Given his age, I think this will never change. He will win rallies, but he will also end up in a ditch as many times as winning.

[Mintexmemory]

Simple, Ogier in whatever have 4 wheels. He is the best! Meeke failure in pressure, Latvala too. Neuville too irregular. Paddon too soon to fight like that. Tänak need win rallies first. The others? To weak....

Mr O has said very much what I think, BUT...
How do we know that the Fiesta (if that's where Seb ends up) isn't the pile of unpredictable crap the has plagued poor Mads for the past 2 years? - OK I am being mischievous but that is the big question. Certainly in a Hyundai Ogier would be just as dominant as he was in a Polo.
As Latvala and Mikkelsen couldn't do it after 4 years in the best car they sure as hell won't do it against Ogier anywhere else. Also if Ogier were 'resting' for a year there are at least 6 drivers on about the same level so my money would be on Meeke or Neuville.

[seb_sh]

Meeke is too fast for himself to handle sometimes. Given his age, I think this will never change. He will win rallies, but he will also end up in a ditch as many times as winning.

I think he has the same problem as Solberg and Latvala: when someone is faster they push and eventually they go over the limit. Loeb and Ogier can sustain a high pace with less risk, that's their main advantage. Only Neuville has shown signs of that occasionally. Meeke was fast and controlled only when circumstances favoured him, we will see next year if his form in 2016 was 'true'.

So no, other than Ogier I don't see a potential WDC atm, he is one whole level above the rest.

[smsgrafica]

Have you heard of the magical black round things called Dmacks?

Of course I have, but look at his 2015 season with M-Sport and you'll see the same inconsistency. He just isn't ready to be at the top all the time. Or do you think Wilson has demoted Tanak with no reason?


Meeke was fast and controlled only when circumstances favoured him, we will see next year if his form in 2016 was 'true'.

It's funny how Meeke's 2016 season is perceived. You might think he's had a great year, but if you look at the rallies he has driven, you'll see how his points total is not very good.

He had 2 wins, one 5th place, one 16th place, one 23rd place and 2 retirements. This makes a total of 64 points out of a possible 196.

Let's look at the standings for these rallies:

Ogier 152
Neuville 79
Mikkelsen 63
Latvala 50
Paddon 49

[BicioWrc]

Of course I have, but look at his 2015 season with M-Sport and you'll see the same inconsistency. He just isn't ready to be at the top all the time. Or do you think Wilson has demoted Tanak with no reason?



It's funny how Meeke's 2016 season is perceived. You might think he's had a great year, but if you look at the rallies he has driven, you'll see how his points total is not very good.

He had 2 wins, one 5th place, one 16th place, one 23rd place and 2 retirements. This makes a total of 64 points out of a possible 196.

Let's look at the standings for these rallies:

Ogier 152
Neuville 79
Mikkelsen 63
Latvala 50
Paddon 49

In Montecarlo and Sweden Meeke was just unlucky (Ogier made 2 mistakes in sweden but was smart and also lucky to go out with minimum conseguences) .... so i think if i'm not wrong Overall Meeke made just 2 real mistakes this season..in france and in catalunya (in extreme condition)
vs One mistake of Ogier in finland....
This don't mean i consider Meeke stronger then Ogier, but i believe Chris can fight for the championship next year.

[BigWorm]

Of course I have, but look at his 2015 season with M-Sport and you'll see the same inconsistency. He just isn't ready to be at the top all the time. Or do you think Wilson has demoted Tanak with no reason?



It's funny how Meeke's 2016 season is perceived. You might think he's had a great year, but if you look at the rallies he has driven, you'll see how his points total is not very good.

He had 2 wins, one 5th place, one 16th place, one 23rd place and 2 retirements. This makes a total of 64 points out of a possible 196.

Let's look at the standings for these rallies:

Ogier 152
Neuville 79
Mikkelsen 63
Latvala 50
Paddon 49

And when the pressure is on, he'll be more accident prone. Consistency is like a personality when it comes to rally drivers. Mechanical or driver errors, for some drivers it's inevitable. For Meeke it definitely is and that's why I don't think he will ever be a champion.

[smsgrafica]

Let's look at the standings for these rallies:

Ogier 152
Neuville 79
Mikkelsen 63
Latvala 50
Paddon 49

I forgot to list Sordo with 63 points, Ostberg with 57 and Tanak with 46.

Updated standings:

Ogier 152
Neuville 79
Meeke 64
Mikkelsen 63
Sordo 63
Ostberg 57
Latvala 50
Paddon 49
Tanak 46

[Simmi]

The reason 2017 is so exciting is because it throws up more unknowns and questions than we usually get going into a season. Can Meeke fight for a title when he is expected to? Same with Neuville. Can Paddon step up? Where will the VW guys even drive?

For me there are too many questions right now to say definitively. People are quick to write Meeke off but there's no doubt if he converts his potential he can have Ogier worried. He's never been under championship pressure so I'd prefer to judge him half way through next season.

[itix]

Ogier
YEP - reason not needed.

Meeke
YES - depending on where Ogier end up and how competitive the car will be. Speed everywhere, still too inconsistent.

Neuville
YES - he has the speed everywhere, he got his confidence and consistency back. Depends on the speed of the Hyundai compared to whatever Ogier ends up in and the speed of the Citroen-Meeke combo.

Latvala
NO - too inconsistent and not good enough under pressure. Also seems to have no luck whatsoever even when he is staying on the road.

Mikkelsen
NO - Not enough speed for me. In my opinion he is slower than we think because of the Polo. Both his wins were gifted.

Tänak
NO - no speed on tarmac. Might take some gravel rally wins though and will for sure be entertaining to watch.

Paddon
NO - Same issue as Tänak.

Sordo
NO - Fast on some tarmac events, other than that, not at all.

Camilli, Hänninen
NO - Lacking both speed and consistency. Toyota speed unknown but drivers def. no.

Lappi
MAYBE - Depends on the speed of the Toyota. Has shown incredible pace at times, has stepped up his consistency lately.

Østberg, Abbring, Evans
JUST NO - Won't be in the championship even (maybe for a one off or as private entries/satellite teams, dunno).

[dimviii]

@itix

Tanaks speed at asphalt is disadvantaged from Dmacks

[AL14]

None. :)

Edit: apart from ogier ofc

[EstWRC]

Tänak, Mikkelsen and Paddon no and lappi maybe, please be sensible

[Mariusz]

@itix

Tanaks speed at asphalt is disadvantaged from Dmacks

Additionally disadvantaged this year, but he was never fast like i.e. Sordo or even Evans on tarmac.

[dimviii]

Additionally disadvantaged this year, but he was never fast like i.e. Sordo or even Evans on tarmac.

if I remember correct,when he was running at wet asphalt(= low temps), he was fast with dmacks.

[itix]

@itix

Tanaks speed at asphalt is disadvantaged from Dmacks

Tänaks speed on asphalt was bad also before the Dmack days.

[BigWorm]

Tänaks speed on asphalt was bad also before the Dmack days.
In 2012 he showed pace on the black stuff. It's definitely there.

Sure, he was disappointing on tarmac in 2015 but that was because he did no asphalt events in 2013 and only a few in an S2000 car in 2014, of course he would be a bit rusty.

Running 5th on Dmacks in Germany was impressive this year. He is definitely capable of great things on every surface.

[itix]

Checking Ewrc his pace doesn't seem to be blinding. He was never better than 6th at any point on the asphalt events, and only in spain on the gravel day did he get as high as 1st. Maybe he had problems on all of them but he doesn't seem that fantastic. Not championship winning fantastic anyway.

Maybe my memory is foggy though, it happens.
I remember his black Fiesta being involved in a lot of accidents but no great asphalt pace from Ott.

[N.O.T]

It will all come down to consistency, Ogier is the fastest and most consistent of all but he will be in a car that will not be that much ahead of the others this time, and he will also not be able to push 100% without big risk since testing and setup will be done relatively in a rush.

The new season will definitely be far more exciting at least on paper.

Good riddance to the useless VW management and their tree hugging policies.

[EstWRC]

Checking Ewrc his pace doesn't seem to be blinding. He was never better than 6th at any point on the asphalt events, and only in spain on the gravel day did he get as high as 1st. Maybe he had problems on all of them but he doesn't seem that fantastic. Not championship winning fantastic anyway.

Maybe my memory is foggy though, it happens.
I remember his black Fiesta being involved in a lot of accidents but no great asphalt pace from Ott.

2012 was his first season in a WRC car. what did you expect? podiums or wins right away? He won stages in germany (was 4th before crash) and in spain (was 5th before crash) and finished solid 6th in france (fastest on the power stage).

Last year in Germany and France he had set-up problems with the upgraded Fiesta and this 2 year pause from tarmac hurt a lot too.


Tänak has the same problem like Hayden, we dont have any tarmac rallies in estonia. How much he has developed now we will see next season.


And regardig the topic, Ogier will win it no matter what car. it will be harder but he will still win. no one has this consistency like he does.

[A FONDO]

I don't think the Polo was much ahead in 2016. Anyway Ogier's problem this year was that he edged the competition too early. Now if he loses many points with the new car in the first few rounds, by the dusty rounds he will be on equal road conditions with the other top guys and build an advantage for the tarmac part of the season. So the first half of the season should be interesting. From the guys below Ogi, I expect Meeke to crash 2 times in the first 3 rounds and again be like a "wildcard entry" later through the season. I am very curious about Paddon's development, his approach is quite different to what we are used to, he is missing that edge-cutting bravery but he is still intelligently improving his overall speed and won't end up like Hirvonen or Ostberg. The problem is both Neuville and Tanak made incredible recovery and overshadow him again.

[MM WRC]

Ogier
YEP - reason not needed.

Meeke
YES - depending on where Ogier end up and how competitive the car will be. Speed everywhere, still too inconsistent.

Neuville
YES - he has the speed everywhere, he got his confidence and consistency back. Depends on the speed of the Hyundai compared to whatever Ogier ends up in and the speed of the Citroen-Meeke combo.

Latvala
NO - too inconsistent and not good enough under pressure. Also seems to have no luck whatsoever even when he is staying on the road.

Mikkelsen
NO - Not enough speed for me. In my opinion he is slower than we think because of the Polo. Both his wins were gifted.

Tänak
NO - no speed on tarmac. Might take some gravel rally wins though and will for sure be entertaining to watch.

Paddon
NO - Same issue as Tänak.

Sordo
NO - Fast on some tarmac events, other than that, not at all.

Camilli, Hänninen
NO - Lacking both speed and consistency. Toyota speed unknown but drivers def. no.

Lappi
MAYBE - Depends on the speed of the Toyota. Has shown incredible pace at times, has stepped up his consistency lately.

Østberg, Abbring, Evans
JUST NO - Won't be in the championship even (maybe for a one off or as private entries/satellite teams, dunno).

I agree with you, apart from Lappi. He's not experienced enough, and he doesn't even have a contract yet, at least officially.

[AndyRAC]

Tänak has the same problem like Hayden, we don't have any tarmac rallies in Estonia. How much he has developed now we will see next season.


The 'simple' answer to that is to enter as many Tarmac events as he can - were the budget allows obviously. Similarly for Paddon - surely Hyundai want to challenge for the WRC, so they can surely afford to enter him in as many Tarmac events as is possible; even some circuit racing, Hyundai had a car for the N24 - stick him in that. I know he's had some Tarmac training, but the best way to get better is to do more Tarmac events as is possible?

[EstWRC]

The 'simple' answer to that is to enter as many Tarmac events as he can - were the budget allows obviously



aannddd the conversation stops here...Tänak doesnt have this luxury, dont know about Paddon.

[AndyRAC]

aannddd the conversation stops here...Tänak doesnt have this luxury, dont know about Paddon.

Exactly. Maybe different for Paddon..Hyundai can/could/ should be entering him in Tarmac events.

[Simmi]

Exactly. Maybe different for Paddon..Hyundai can/could/ should be entering him in Tarmac events.

Just not Rally Legend - where he spent the entire weekend sideways. As awesome as that was to witness.

[RallyTyger]

I'm not even sure you'd need good tarmac skills to win the championship, after all there are only 2 pure tarmac events (and 2 mixed surface events) - and with the championship looking tighter than ever, i could easily imagine a world champion with only a few rally wins in his bag next year... A driver winning a handful of gravel events and scoring consistently on the other gravel rallies could easily afford not being near the podium on the tarmac evens and still be in the bet for the WC title - a guy like Tänak could well focus on winning as much as possible on gravel and just lie low on the tarmac, hoping to bag a few points from others' mistakes and problems

[Alpha]

I'm surprised this many people bother to pay attention. A French dude named Sebastian wins everything, and has done it for the past 10 years or something. It's more fun watching paint dry...

Word RX on the other hand is edge of your seat excitement every race weekend.

And Andre Oliviera: Ogier will be fastest in whatever has four wheels? Like Sebastian Loeb has got his ass handed to him every race in World RX except one? You think Ogier is faster than Loeb?

Ogier is more than welcome in World RX, but don't expect him to reach the finals ;)

[Andre Oliveira]

I say Ogier fastest in whatever have four wheels in rally ;) We are talking about rally.

[Alpha]

But in a proper race series he's average at best. Says a lot about WRC..

[Franky]

But in a proper race series he's average at best. Says a lot about WRC..

You seem to be lost in this case

[dimviii]

You seem to be lost in this case
no he is not lost,he believes that rx is proper race series,not like wrc.

[Andre Oliveira]

Loeb pace in WRC are not the same of his golden era.

Ogier are in the top level now. Nothing to compare now between Sebs.

[EightGear]

But in a proper race series he's average at best. Says a lot about WRC..
Let me get your coat.

[Alpha]

Come on, even the most die hard WRC fan (I was one!) must be sick and tired of the lack of real competition, how it's never driver vs driver, but who has the best car. And that's before getting into team tactics, and drivers paying to have the privilege of getting a sub-par car.

It's silly.

[Franky]

Come on, even the most die hard WRC fan (I was one!) must be sick and tired of the lack of real competition, how it's never driver vs driver, but who has the best car. And that's before getting into team tactics, and drivers paying to have the privilege of getting a sub-par car.

It's silly.

Sorry, but you're the one being silly. All the downsides you mentioned are part of motorsport. There's no dream world where the machinery is equal and no one has to pay a cent.

[Alpha]

Except World RX where a privateer that drives a Citroën without a single Citroën logo on the car can be double world champion.

Or where a DTM driver can start his own team and become world champion.

Or where an old rallycross driver can be team boss and hire the likes of Mr Loeb.

[smsgrafica]

Please, what the heck has WRX to do with this topic? It's (perhaps) an interesting debate, but for another place.

[Alpha]

Ogier or Mikkelsen or both will be in WRX come next year so it's pretty relevant. Ogier has already tested Ekstrøms Audi S1 RX car.

[RallyTyger]

This is a WRC forum, not a WRX forum, nor a 'my motorsport is better than your motorsport' debate

[Alpha]

Actually, there is no World RX forum here, someone should do something about that ;)

[GigiGalliNo1]

Come on, even the most die hard WRC fan (I was one!) must be sick and tired of the lack of real competition, how it's never driver vs driver, but who has the best car. And that's before getting into team tactics, and drivers paying to have the privilege of getting a sub-par car.

It's silly.

It's silly to have the same calendar year after year after year after year.

Yes OK, Corsica is moving to earlier in the year and GB swapped with Aus...

But same time of year is Germany, same time of year is Finland.

Swap the calendar around if we're getting the same events and knowing, oh next is this round and after is that one.

Let alone a Seb winning and winning.

I'm happy 2016 has had a variety of winners and it's been great for the fans!

[AL14]

Ban.

[N.O.T]

Actually, there is no World RX forum here, someone should do something about that ;)

There is a topic for the sport of "has beens" and "never beens" so go and bark in there little dog.

[Alpha]

Yes, Loeb and Solberg are true has-beens in a championship that has six different winners in six races...
It's much better when a french dude wins every race 10 years in a row. Haha, that's excitement!

[smsgrafica]

Yes, Loeb and Solberg are true has-beens in a championship that has six different winners in six races...
It's much better when a french dude wins every race 10 years in a row. Haha, that's excitement!

If you don't like it, why are you even here? Get out, no one will miss you.

[leighton323]

Except World RX where a privateer that drives a Citroën without a single Citroën logo on the car can be double world champion.

Or where a DTM driver can start his own team and become world champion.

Or where an old rallycross driver can be team boss and hire the likes of Mr Loeb.

Your argument that anyone can win in WRX actually does more to devaluing WRX than good.
It shows that the sport appears "easy"

[Alpha]

Doh. It shows that the racing is tight.

[dimviii]

Let me get your coat.

...

[the sniper]

Doh. It shows that the racing is tight.

Club racing can be close. It doesn't make it impressive.

[stefanvv]

Doh. It shows that the racing is tight.

No, it means it can't be compared to rally. WRX are very short races and don't show what a driver can do in a rally. 2 very different disciplines which have its own appealing. No room for comparison in direct way. Like whatever You wish.

[SubaruNorway]

Doh. It shows that the racing is tight.

Because it's easy

[Sulland]

We have for some time had a situation in rally that the manufacturer that hire the best drivers and uses the highest amount of money to develop a car wins. As in F1. The exitement of who will win with what car is gone, and fans stop caring.

When you also have the manufacturers controlling FIA, and a promotor that are not able to utilize the internet or linear TV to the maximum, it does not help.

In a motorsport where you have the best drivers in the world. Most of them have to pay to get a good car, instead of earning as the best racing drivers, you loose talented drivers that never gets the chance.

We need to get back free fighting btw tyre manufactures, rules that allow for private tuners to build a car, and compete with the manufacturers with a much simpler book of rules.

I would like to see the likes of Lappi, Suninnen, Tidemand, and many more fight straigt with the big boys, in a car that a tuner or a raceteam buildt from a kit sold freely to everone.

For most of the fans, they would not see the difference, but would see tighter competition, and more possible winners.

Rally have for many years tried to get back to a ruleset that made many more car manufacturers build cars, and failed.
Simplify and go back to the roots, focus on the drivers as the hero, and not the car. It is about man mastering machine, amd make it last till the end of the rally!

[Toyoda]

So 2017 you have to say Neuville is in a great position to win the championship,

Second this year to Ogier, fast on all surfaces and consistency of the same team.

[Alpha]

I wholeheartedly agree Sulland.

As for other comments, World RX attracts stars like:
9 times WRC champion Sebastian Loeb
WRC champion and 2 times world RX champion Petter Solberg
World RX champion and 2 times DTM champion Mattias Ekstrøm
Two times Super 1600 European champion Andreas Bakkerud
2 times Formula Drift champion and X-games gold medalist Tanner Foust
2 times European Rallycross champion Timur Tkmerzyanov
Son of Marcus Gronholm
Ken Block just for the fans
And many other talented drivers. In addition to evenly matched cars the result is spectacularly close racing. Petter once won by 0.005 seconds!

Ask Loeb if World RX is easy... He's done 61 races and won only one event. And for once he was actually visibly happy at the pre event interview!

[stefanvv]

I wholeheartedly agree Sulland.

As for other comments, World RX attracts stars like:
9 times WRC champion Sebastian Loeb
WRC champion and 2 times world RX champion Petter Solberg
World RX champion and 2 times DTM champion Mattias Ekstrøm
Two times Super 1600 European champion Andreas Bakkerud
2 times Formula Drift champion and X-games gold medalist Tanner Foust
2 times European Rallycross champion Timur Tkmerzyanov
Son of Marcus Gronholm
Ken Block just for the fans
And many other talented drivers. In addition to evenly matched cars the result is spectacularly close racing. Petter once won by 0.005 seconds!

Ask Loeb if World RX is easy... He's done 61 races and won only one event. And for once he was actually visibly happy at the pre event interview!

All You say is that WRX is a "child game" for all kind of drivers.

EDIT: If what You try to say is WRX is very competitive, than why the greatest driver of all times has won just 1 race? Don't tell me because of the car, because I wouldn't believe it.

[itix]

I agree with you, apart from Lappi. He's not experienced enough, and he doesn't even have a contract yet, at least officially.
I put him as a maybe mainly because he is such an unknown. The contract will likely not happen now that VW pulled out but if it does happen and the Toyota isn't slower than a slug he could upset the order of things.

Occasionally there have been drivers that have stepped up to the top and completely changed the establishment (Loeb, Mäkkinen, Sainz). He could be one of those and his pace as of late has been exceptional.

[focus206]

As for other comments, World RX attracts stars like:
9 times WRC champion Sebastian Loeb
WRC champion and 2 times world RX champion Petter Solberg
World RX champion and 2 times DTM champion Mattias Ekstrøm
Two times Super 1600 European champion Andreas Bakkerud
2 times Formula Drift champion and X-games gold medalist Tanner Foust
2 times European Rallycross champion Timur Tkmerzyanov
Son of Marcus Gronholm
Ken Block just for the fans
And many other talented drivers. In addition to evenly matched cars the result is spectacularly close racing. Petter once won by 0.005 seconds!


Wow, so impressive... I see that you're trying (too) hard, so I'll help you: add also Manfred Stohl and touring car driver René Munnich, so maybe you can convince people...
So far World RX has been won twice by former WRC driver and once by a DTM driver. It's a nice motorsport, but you can't really compare... come back when it developed a bit and then we might talk.

[itix]

2012 was his first season in a WRC car. what did you expect? podiums or wins right away? He won stages in germany (was 4th before crash) and in spain (was 5th before crash) and finished solid 6th in france (fastest on the power stage).

Last year in Germany and France he had set-up problems with the upgraded Fiesta and this 2 year pause from tarmac hurt a lot too.


Tänak has the same problem like Hayden, we dont have any tarmac rallies in estonia. How much he has developed now we will see next season.


And regardig the topic, Ogier will win it no matter what car. it will be harder but he will still win. no one has this consistency like he does.
We don't have tarmac events sweden either but occasionally we get drivers like Tidemand or Bergkvist that are equally good on tarmac and gravel.

If you look at Tänak without Estonian nationalist glasses you will see a clear pattern where his tarmac pace is lacking. He is no Markko Märtin in that respect unfortunately.

[stefanvv]

Occasionally there have been drivers that have stepped up to the top and completely changed the establishment (Loeb, Mäkkinen, Sainz). He could be one of those and his pace as of late has been exceptional.

He has the speed, but I'm afraid is far from the consistency of these drivers You mention. Not impossible, but I would say highly unlikely.

[Alpha]

All You say is that WRX is a "child game" for all kind of drivers.

EDIT: If what You try to say is WRX is very competitive, than why the greatest driver of all times has won just 1 race? Don't tell me because of the car, because I wouldn't believe it.
Loeb is a great driver, but with the silly structure of WRC (see Sullands post) he hardly had any real competition. In the WRX though he met a real challenge from a bunch of drivers. Even though he's still in a great car, winning isn't easy when the racing is so close. And that's what makes it interesting to watch. Many different teams and cars in very close racing where extraordinary skill is required to win (like Kevin Erikssons outside pass in corner one of the previous World RX round).

[stefanvv]

And that's what makes it interesting to watch. Many different teams and cars in very close racing where extraordinary skill is required to win (like Kevin Erikssons outside pass in corner one of the previous World RX round).

I like some of WRX races, this year Solberg had great performance in one of them (don't remember which, but it was amazing). The difference is in few kms of racing some things can go wrong (close battles, contacts, etc.), while in few hundreds of kms many things can go wrong, but the advantage is that You're on Yourself, nothing can disturb You, except the car's strength, and of course THE MILEAGE. So very different to compare.
In 80's & 90's true, there were some private drivers in wrc which made the difference in some events, but these were only local drivers and hardly made any difference in the overall picture. Solberg tried as a privateer and failed, and that is not because of the rules.

[the sniper]

Many different teams and cars in very close racing where extraordinary skill is required to win (like Kevin Erikssons outside pass in corner one of the previous World RX round).

It was good judgement, 'extraordinary skill' is rather over doing it... Rallycross is good entertainment, I like it, but there's no depth to it. Rallying is Chess, Rallycross is Checkers.

Rally drivers have gone to Rallycross and become/stayed winners. Rallycross drivers go rallying and are normally shown up to be nothing special.

[er88]

Actually, there is no World RX forum here, someone should do something about that ;)
There isn't a WRX forum on here because nobody cares enough about it. Yes it's a nice little motorsport for older men to have a bit of fun, or drivers not good enough to do anything else, but it will never be anything more. Now jog on and stop derailing the thread...

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[stefanvv]

None. :)

Edit: apart from ogier ofc

Agreed. If Ogier is in, no one else can fight with him currently. If he is out, well we have the very interesting championship, don't we? But then I have doubts of its value. Would we enjoy more close fights without Ogier, or just to enjoy his driving throughout the season?

[itix]

Come on, even the most die hard WRC fan (I was one!) must be sick and tired of the lack of real competition, how it's never driver vs driver, but who has the best car. And that's before getting into team tactics, and drivers paying to have the privilege of getting a sub-par car.

It's silly.
I'm sorry but you are completely lost on this one.

RX is fun live, but that's about it. As a TV show it is piss boring. I just can't get into world RX on TV.

Also Peugeot Hansen team is not exactly the best. Seb Loeb is doing great with what he has.

Stage rallying compared to RX is like comparing Belgian Trappist beer to Heineken or Carlsberg (and F1 is like warm champagne... Disgusting and for people who think they're fancy).

[Toyoda]

Stop destroying this thread with a completely pointless argument, no one cares about boyracer beer and hotdog showboating RX, this is a WRC forum for serious tactical racing, there is a token thread on WRX, please stay in your little pen their :)

[N.O.T]

Can a mod please transfer the WRX garbage elsewhere ?

[cali]

We don't have tarmac events sweden either but occasionally we get drivers like Tidemand or Bergkvist that are equally good on tarmac and gravel.

If you look at Tänak without Estonian nationalist glasses you will see a clear pattern where his tarmac pace is lacking. He is no Markko Märtin in that respect unfortunately.

If you took off your nationalistic glasses, you would understand that comparing apples to eggs is two different things. Until Bergkvist or Tidemand hasn't driven single rally on WRC cars I would leave it that way. These guys have not proven a single dip on a higher level. This is ridiculous. Someone else suggested you to be sensible, I'll second that!

[Zeakiwi]

If you took off your nationalistic glasses, you would understand that comparing apples to eggs is two different things. Until Bergkvist or Tidemand hasn't driven single rally on WRC cars I would leave it that way. These guys have not proven a single dip on a higher level. This is ridiculous. Someone else suggested you to be sensible, I'll second that!

Tidemand has done a number of rallies with Fiesta WRC including two Rally Sweden events.(2013 & 2014)
http://www.ewrc-results.com/profile.php?p=8578&t=Pontus-Tidemand

[cali]

Tidemand has done a number of rallies with Fiesta WRC including two Rally Sweden events.(2013 & 2014)
http://www.ewrc-results.com/profile.php?p=8578&t=Pontus-Tidemand

We were talking about tarmac rallies


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Grundo Farb]

I put him as a maybe mainly because he is such an unknown. The contract will likely not happen now that VW pulled out but if it does happen and the Toyota isn't slower than a slug he could upset the order of things.

Occasionally there have been drivers that have stepped up to the top and completely changed the establishment (Loeb, Mäkkinen, Sainz). He could be one of those and his pace as of late has been exceptional.

What is it about Lappi? In the 2013 APRC he came second against Gaurav Gill (who isn't exactly spectacular). Hayden Paddon beat him on rally whangarei by 3 minutes and Paddon was in an EVO 9 against Lappi's Works Skoda.

Challenge for the WRC title. Good grief....

[Grundo Farb]

We don't have tarmac events sweden either but occasionally we get drivers like Tidemand or Bergkvist that are equally good on tarmac and gravel.

If you look at Tänak without Estonian nationalist glasses you will see a clear pattern where his tarmac pace is lacking. He is no Markko Märtin in that respect unfortunately.

Or equally as slow on Tarmac and Gravel. Depends how you look at it.

[Andre Oliveira]

Can a mod please transfer the WRX garbage elsewhere ?


http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?33435-World-Rallycross-Championship-a-k-a-RALLYX

[electroliquid]

What is it about Lappi? In the 2013 APRC he came second against Gaurav Gill (who isn't exactly spectacular). Hayden Paddon beat him on rally whangarei by 3 minutes and Paddon was in an EVO 9 against Lappi's Works Skoda.

Challenge for the WRC title. Good grief....

Lappi for sure is not a contender for title, but.. In APRC he was too unconsistent to be champion, Gill actually never win against Lappi. Now Lappi looks like more consistant. And for Lappi defence in Whangarey, which was fast rally he drove S2000 Fabia, which struggle (as all S2000) in fast rallies, also Lappi has same problem in Estonia 2014. And no one could call Lappi slow driver in terms of pure speed. I don't know NZ1 regulations, but Paddon's EVO wasn't N4. So he was 2nd after world class driver in fast national regulation car, not so bad I think.

[Grundo Farb]

Lappi for sure is not a contender for title, but.. In APRC he was too unconsistent to be champion, Gill actually never win against Lappi. Now Lappi looks like more consistant. And for Lappi defence in Whangarey, which was fast rally he drove S2000 Fabia, which struggle (as all S2000) in fast rallies, also Lappi has same problem in Estonia 2014. And no one could call Lappi slow driver in terms of pure speed. I don't know NZ1 regulations, but Paddon's EVO wasn't N4. So he was 2nd after world class driver in fast national regulation car, not so bad I think.

But definitely not a "Maybe" as the WRC world champion.....

[electroliquid]

For next year yes, someday - who knows? Still he is most promising driver among those who don't drive WRC car yet.

[itix]

If you took off your nationalistic glasses, you would understand that comparing apples to eggs is two different things. Until Bergkvist or Tidemand hasn't driven single rally on WRC cars I would leave it that way. These guys have not proven a single dip on a higher level. This is ridiculous. Someone else suggested you to be sensible, I'll second that!

You misunderstand me... I took them as examples of people that had relative pace on asphalt (none of them are blowing the championship away, I'm aware of that) with almost no asphalt experience.

Tänak, relative to the rest of the field, does not have good tarmac pace.

[itix]

What is it about Lappi? In the 2013 APRC he came second against Gaurav Gill (who isn't exactly spectacular). Hayden Paddon beat him on rally whangarei by 3 minutes and Paddon was in an EVO 9 against Lappi's Works Skoda.

Challenge for the WRC title. Good grief....

Like I said... "pace as of late". I used to laugh at Lappi also and I jokingly celebrated every time he finished a whole stage without a visit to the ditch.

I am not Lappi's biggest fan but he hasn't really shown what he can do on a WRC level, and the pace of the Toyota is unknown (despite all experts viewing videos which could alll have been done on the lowest ALS level intentionally or any number of other limiting factors).

[bluuford]

guys, you are overestimateing the importance of tarmac pace. Remember, most of the championship is on gravel and Ogier won his 4th title without winning a single gravel event. His firts win came after his title :) And remember also that Ogier was not good on tarmac initially. Most of his crashes and mistakes were on tarmac events, look at his record ;)

[WUff1]

For next year yes, someday - who knows? Still he is most promising driver among those who don't drive WRC car yet.

No, that´s Suninen.

[AL14]

guys, you are overestimateing the importance of tarmac pace. Remember, most of the championship is on gravel and Ogier won his 4th title without winning a single gravel event. His firts win came after his title :) And remember also that Ogier was not good on tarmac initially. Most of his crashes and mistakes were on tarmac events, look at his record ;)

The fact is that if you want to beat Ogier you're not allowed to lack in anything.

[bluuford]

The fact is that if you want to beat Ogier you're not allowed to lack in anything.
Well, then my list is here:
...

;)

[Rallyper]

If you took off your nationalistic glasses, you would understand that comparing apples to eggs is two different things. Until Bergkvist or Tidemand hasn't driven single rally on WRC cars I would leave it that way. These guys have not proven a single dip on a higher level. This is ridiculous. Someone else suggested you to be sensible, I'll second that!

You don´t like swedish drivers do you? BAshing off quotes like that makes you small. Don´t just refuse to see what those two done on tarmac.

[EstWRC]

You misunderstand me... I took them as examples of people that had relative pace on asphalt (none of them are blowing the championship away, I'm aware of that) with almost no asphalt experience.

Tänak, relative to the rest of the field, does not have good tarmac pace.

Tänak won tarmac events in SWRC too but that doesnt count now, does it? Like Cali says, we can compare when Tidemand and Bergkvist reach WRC level. im not saying Tänak is the best on tarmac i just dont agree that he has no pace tarmac, same goes for Paddon.


You don´t like swedish drivers do you? BAshing off quotes like that makes you small. Don´t just refuse to see what those two done on tarmac.

what? where do you see bashing there?

[Rallyper]

Tänak won tarmac events in SWRC too but that doesnt count now, does it? Like Cali says, we can compare when Tidemand and Bergkvist reach WRC level. im not saying Tänak is the best on tarmac i just dont agree that he has no pace tarmac, same goes for Paddon.



what? where do you see bashing there?

From Cali I believe. Not you this time. ;)

[BigWorm]

Paddon just needs to get out of his comfort zone(going sideways) and he could be something.

[cali]

You don´t like swedish drivers do you? BAshing off quotes like that makes you small. Don´t just refuse to see what those two done on tarmac.
Nothing against any driver, but when you (swedes) start to praise your guys without any visible or waterproof proof, then it gets twisted, And I do not like that. They have done exactly nothing what comes to tarmac speed in WRC cars. Until they haven't proven themselves or even got the chance to prove themselves, it is just a speculation. Unlike Tänak, who has had the possibility to drive few seasons already, hence we can have something to say about his speed in the top league. But Tänak, Tidemand and Bergkvist does not even belong to the same league, so I just cannot understand how you can compare apples and turtle eggs.

[cali]

From Cali I believe. Not you this time. ;)
Where do you see bashing? Everything I wrote is 100% a fact!

[cali]

You misunderstand me... I took them as examples of people that had relative pace on asphalt (none of them are blowing the championship away, I'm aware of that) with almost no asphalt experience.

Tänak, relative to the rest of the field, does not have good tarmac pace.
No. They have no proof whatsoever on the top league. Case closed.

[Sulland]

I like some of WRX races, this year Solberg had great performance in one of them (don't remember which, but it was amazing). The difference is in few kms of racing some things can go wrong (close battles, contacts, etc.), while in few hundreds of kms many things can go wrong, but the advantage is that You're on Yourself, nothing can disturb You, except the car's strength, and of course THE MILEAGE. So very different to compare.
In 80's & 90's true, there were some private drivers in wrc which made the difference in some events, but these were only local drivers and hardly made any difference in the overall picture. Solberg tried as a privateer and failed, and that is not because of the rules.

Not because of the rules direct, but because the manufacurers are not obliged to sell private teams their latest bits, but only 1 or 2 generations old.

If top two drivers in a brand counts in championship, works or private - then the outcome would not be given before the rally.

It would also be cool if one or two rallies could be more old endurance, and not flat out from start to finish, so drivers had to think and plan more!

[bluuford]

Nothing against any driver, but when you (swedes) start to praise your guys without any visible or waterproof proof, then it gets twisted, And I do not like that. They have done exactly nothing what comes to tarmac speed in WRC cars. Until they haven't proven themselves or even got the chance to prove themselves, it is just a speculation. Unlike Tänak, who has had the possibility to drive few seasons already, hence we can have something to say about his speed in the top league. But Tänak, Tidemand and Bergkvist does not even belong to the same league, so I just cannot understand how you can compare apples and turtle eggs.

yeah and if you compare the experience, Paddon and Tänak have both done less than 10 pure tarmac events. (8 and 9 if I am not mistaken). And total experience.. Paddon has 30 WRC events with WRC, Ott has 42 and for example Ogier has 90 events in WRC with WRC and Jari guess what, he has 144 events with WRC :)

[cali]

yeah and if you compare the experience, Paddon and Tänak have both done less than 10 pure tarmac events. (8 and 9 if I am not mistaken). And total experience.. Paddon has 30 WRC events with WRC, Ott has 42 and for example Ogier has 90 events in WRC with WRC and Jari guess what, he has 144 events with WRC :)
I guess you have problem with finnish drivers :D

[Fast Eddie WRC]

How is there 10 pages on 'Which driver can realistically fight for the Championship?'

Realistically none of the current drivers can until Ogier quits.

[seb_sh]

How is there 10 pages on 'Which driver can realistically fight for the Championship?'

Realistically none of the current drivers can until Ogier quits.

Indeed it's the most comical thread in years...

[smsgrafica]

It's not comical at all. Of course Ogier is the best on equal material, but how I see it, Neuville and perhaps Meeke & Mikkelsen could realistically fight for the crown, based on their speed on every surface.

So, if they end up having a quick car and Ogier doesn't, IMHO they could be contenders, whereas the other guys, even with a much better car, would still be unable to fight for the Championship.

[itix]

No. They have no proof whatsoever on the top league. Case closed.

You seemed to have taken this personally which was not the intention. Tänak is fast but like AL14 says if you want to beat Ogier, you need to be fast everywhere.

Like Sordo who still hasn't mastered gravel after 10 (or whatever it is) years in the championship, I don't believe that Tänak will fully master tarmac. Markko Märtin was a natural on tarmac, Tänak is not in my view.

Just forget I mentioned Tidemand and Bergkvist if you can not accept that analogy. Use Märtin as a very relevant analogy since they are both Estonian.

[cali]

You seemed to have taken this personally which was not the intention. Tänak is fast but like AL14 says if you want to beat Ogier, you need to be fast everywhere.

Like Sordo who still hasn't mastered gravel after 10 (or whatever it is) years in the championship, I don't believe that Tänak will fully master tarmac. Markko Märtin was a natural on tarmac, Tänak is not in my view.

Just forget I mentioned Tidemand and Bergkvist if you can not accept that analogy. Use Märtin as a very relevant analogy since they are both Estonian.

No other problem except:

1. Your analogy is totally twisted and not corresponding the situation at all. Like I said, apples and turtle eggs. Naturally talented guys (on both surface) in recent years have came from France.
2. Suggesting Lappi as "MAYBE" ... no comments

No estonian thing here, I know quite much about WRC to know who is who. I just do not like unreasonable comments.
Before this I actually thought you are a smart guy ;)

[MM WRC]

How is there 10 pages on 'Which driver can realistically fight for the Championship?'

Realistically none of the current drivers can until Ogier quits.

I can think of another driver-car-pair to win four consecutive titles, and then the driver changing team and losing his competitiveness. Unlikely but possible.

[Sulland]

How is there 10 pages on 'Which driver can realistically fight for the Championship?'

Realistically none of the current drivers can until Ogier quits.

Lets use a US concept, and Toyota draft Ogier as a new team, then we would have fun and more exiting 2017 season! :-)

[stefanvv]

I can think of another driver-car-pair to win four consecutive titles, and then the driver changing team and losing his competitiveness.

He hasn't been so dominant.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's not comical at all. Of course Ogier is the best on equal material, but how I see it, Neuville and perhaps Meeke & Mikkelsen could realistically fight for the crown, based on their speed on every surface.

So, if they end up having a quick car and Ogier doesn't, IMHO they could be contenders, whereas the other guys, even with a much better car, would still be unable to fight for the Championship.

So at best it's a pointless thread until we know who will be driving what in 2017...

[itix]

No other problem except:

1. Your analogy is totally twisted and not corresponding the situation at all. Like I said, apples and turtle eggs. Naturally talented guys (on both surface) in recent years have came from France.
2. Suggesting Lappi as "MAYBE" ... no comments

No estonian thing here, I know quite much about WRC to know who is who. I just do not like unreasonable comments.
Before this I actually thought you are a smart guy ;)
Hope that hasn't changed ;)
You never know. Nobody would have thought Breen would have had any pace in the Citroen before he moved into the car (other than the occasional British national rallyist supporter) and he surprised many. Personally I thought he'd reached his peak and that Citroen was stupid to give him seat time.

Sure, he's not up to championship winning pace yet but you never know. The fact that Lappi has managed to stay on the road as of late made me change my mind about him. Also even if some things are a bit odd about the approach of the Toyota team we realistically don't know the pace until compared to the others so yeah... I'll stand by my maybe and maybe I'll get to eat those words, but I don't mind being wrong. I have no image to protect ;)

[Lousada]

I can think of another driver-car-pair to win four consecutive titles, and then the driver changing team and losing his competitiveness. Unlikely but possible.

And then his teammate became worldchampion. So there you have it, unmistakeble proof that Tanak will be the next worldchampion!

[AndyRAC]

Hope that hasn't changed ;)
You never know. Nobody would have thought Breen would have had any pace in the Citroen before he moved into the car (other than the occasional British national rallyist supporter) and he surprised many. Personally I thought he'd reached his peak and that Citroen was stupid to give him seat time.

He's Irish - from the Republic....(though most British rally fans are behind him).

[Alpha]

Mikkelsen did his first interview after the VW exit, today. He's hopeful that he'll land in a good seat on a competitive team. A yearly salary of 6 million usd will probably not happen though.

Not sure if he's done the math. Toyota is the only option?

[AL14]

you still here?

[EightGear]

Mikkelsen did his first interview after the VW exit, today. He's hopeful that he'll land in a good seat on a competitive team. A yearly salary of 6 million usd will probably not happen though.

Not sure if he's done the math. Toyota is the only option?
I think he will go to WRX, it's time for him to move up to proper, hard motorsport where he can join all the other amazing drivers and share wins with them.


But what the hell, did Mikkelsen earn 6 million?

[SubaruNorway]

Where is the interview?

[itix]

I think he will go to WRX, it's time for him to move up to proper, hard motorsport where he can join all the other amazing drivers and share wins with them.


But what the hell, did Mikkelsen earn 6 million?

I doubt it, that woud be what? A tenth of the budget?

[sollitt]

So at best it's a pointless thread until we know who will be driving what in 2017...

Not entirely.

Of course Ogier will remain the firm favourite, regardless of what he's driving, until someone steps up and produces some competitive results. Talk is cheap.

However it's a different ballgame today than it was just a few weeks ago. The goal posts have moved, not only for those involved with the VW closure, but for everyone who's within chipping distance of title contention.

Next season might be a bit more open than many think.

[Alpha]

SubaruNorway - TV2.
Itix - It's media speculation/guesstimate/insider info. And would include private sponsors in addition to payment from VW.

[RAS007]

He hasn't been so dominant.

DO you mean Ogier hasn't been as dominant as Makinen was, or the other way round?

[Danny0405]

DO you mean Ogier hasn't been as dominant as Makinen was, or the other way round?

Makinen was not as dominant as Ogier, it is quite obvious.
The 1997 and 1998 titles were very hard to obtain, especially the 98 title when Sainz lost the title for 0.3 km in the last stage of the last rallye

[Allez Andruet]

especially the 98 title when Sainz lost the title for 0.3 km in the last stage of the last rallye
Plus the 30+ km road section he still would have had to driven.

[MM WRC]

He hasn't been so dominant.

No, he hasn't. But he ended up somewhere outside top five. Ogier will definitely be in top three, no question about that. But this example just shows that changing car can seriously affect the performance.

[Rally Power]

Mikkelsen did his first interview after the VW exit, today. He's hopeful that he'll land in a good seat on a competitive team. A yearly salary of 6 million usd will probably not happen though.

6 million for Mikkelsen??? If he gets 6, then Latavala must get 10 and Ogier probably 20. All together that should be half of VW’s budget…hard to believe.

[Simmi]

More like 6 million krone?

[EstWRC]

i remeber from somewhere that Ogier's salary was 10 mil

[dimviii]

i remeber from somewhere that Ogier's salary was 10 mil

7 millions euro

[MM WRC]

6 million for Mikkelsen??? If he gets 6, then Latavala must get 10 and Ogier probably 20. All together that should be half of VW’s budget…hard to believe.

I read last year that the best salary Latvala has ever got is about three million.

[EightGear]

Those numbers seem more believable, IIRC Neuville was lured by Hyundai using 3 million too.

[Alpha]

Norwegian media says Mikkelsen earns about 50 mill NOK per year. Unconfirmed of course. Equates to about 6 mill usd or 5,5 eur.

As I said earlier that probably includes private sponsorship in addition to whatever VW pays him.

[sollitt]

With all this talk of money, one of the remarkable speculations is that these 'released' VW drivers will somehow come cheaply because they're already being paid by VW.
It may be Christmas but that's a fairly far fetched fairy tale.

[danon]

Which driver can realistically fight for the Championship?

Anyone can fight - only one can win it.

[olemann]

Excuse my bad English.

Some fun reading that may not reflect the individual country entusiatiske members on this forums. I checked Ewrc-results.com and there I see that there are only Norwegians the last 10 years can compete with France and Finnish in terms of results in the WRC.

Could not bear to go further back to 2006 now and see that British who best ranged between 5 and 21 place in this period and usually with two Norwegians ahead of the best British.
*
Funny to see that Latvala beat Mikkelsen with just 12 points in 2015 and this year is behind Mikkelsen, despite Mikkelsen had to bring in a completely new and fresh codriver to run this season.

Based on what I see today is only 3 drivers who may approach to fight with Ogier next year if those participating and it is Mikkelsen, Neuville and Tanak (if he is not running D-Mack).

[sollitt]

Based on what I see today is only 3 drivers who may approach to fight with Ogier next year if those participating and it is Mikkelsen, Neuville and Tanak (if he is not running DMACK).Reality is that, currently, there is Ogier ... and then a block of half a dozen, all equally as talented as each other and all with an equal chance of challenging for the title. These would include the 3 you mention and also Meeke, Latvala & Paddon.
With Ogier deprived of his silver spoon next season, I'd suggest there may be 7 viable contenders next year.

[RS]

With all this talk of money, one of the remarkable speculations is that these 'released' VW drivers will somehow come cheaply because they're already being paid by VW.
It may be Christmas but that's a fairly far fetched fairy tale.

They'll come cheaper if they want a seat. Supply and demand...

[sollitt]

They'll come cheaper if they want a seat. Supply and demand...

In any market there's always money for the best product. And these products will be in demand. At market price ... not cheaply because they're getting a golden handshake from VW.