Mexico 2016

[Bagwan]

Here we go again .
Lewis is looking strong and Nico is looking comfortable in second , but , will it last .
Both of them could be under threat here , with a couple of efficient aero Bulls behind them .
Neither can afford a DNF here , or it's either over , or a new game .

The track should be much grippier than last year , with the tarmac having had a year to settle in and gas off .

This could be fun to watch .

[Bagwan]

I agree , bagwan .
It looks like it might be an interesting one .

Those red cars looked fast today .
It'd be nice to have them really in the mix , too .

That thin air , with such high elevation , is going to make those Mercs nervous , as they already have issues in the low pressure zone behind other cars .

[Bagwan]

Mind you , bagwan , I think you heard Vettel say he thought Hamilton's lap looked a little scrappy , so there should be more to come .

And , didn't you read somewhere that Seb was on a softer compound ?

[Nitrodaze]

:-) u r losing it buddy

But l agree, this could be a cracking race. The Ferraris seem strong. But l think the Merc would turn up the wick on sunday and leave them for dust. Rosberg needs good reliability and to keep out of trouble; to keep the title fire burning. Hamilton just needs to win and hope for some miracle. Kind of reminds me of the plight Massa in Interlagos 2008, you might say Hamilton is getting a taste of that.

[Tazio]

Kind of reminds me of the plight Massa in Interlagos 2008, you might say Hamilton is getting a taste of that.
:stareup:Lewis needs Nico to pull a Lewis a la 2007 ;)

[N4D13]

Surprising that Kyvat was out on Q1 while Sainz made it to Q3. I'm surprised that Toro Rosso are sticking with him for next year.

[AndyL]

Now will Seb get a penalty for blocking Hamilton? I think he'll probably get away with it since it didn't really cost Hamilton anything.

[AndyL]

Surprising that Kyvat was out on Q1 while Sainz made it to Q3. I'm surprised that Toro Rosso are sticking with him for next year.

Kvyat had some sort of car problem didn't he? He was unable to make a second run. But it's true he has been outperformed by Sainz since dropping back to the junior team.
Gasly is at the front of Red Bull's queue to replace Kvyat, and reportedly Red Bull don't think he's ready for F1 yet, even after two and a half years in GP2. So I guess it's lucky for Kvyat that the pressure from below isn't so strong at the moment.

[N4D13]

Kvyat had some sort of car problem didn't he? He was unable to make a second run. But it's true he has been outperformed by Sainz since dropping back to the junior team.
I didn't know that, as I missed part of Q1. Thanks for the clarification. :)

[jens]

Rosberg saved his a$$ with his final qualifying lap. Driving for P2's works for him in terms of title for now, but competition is uncomfortably close to Merc this time from Nico's point of view.

Oh, and I have to spare a comment about Vettel too, the driver I am most cheering for. But apparently it looks like he has forgotten, how to even qualify. Which throughout years was always his strength and even in 2014 he was pretty formidable in qualis (but lost out to Ricciardo in races).

Vettel is a somewhat unique case among drivers as it seems like he is a pretty emotional/sensitive character, and this influences his performances. Which means he needs a "positive vibe" in the team to deliver results. Last year he was brilliant, and we remember 2015 was a positive year for Ferrari. Even 2016 started out on a pretty promising note, but some crashes, reliability problems and car performance problems have broken Vettel. It looks like the British Grand Prix was the turning point of the season, where Seb lost his heart. Since then he has been merely matching Räikkönen.

I know from personal experience that "things going for you" or "things working against you" can influence the emotional state and also influence "performance" to put it this way. So I can relate to Vettel. He is not like Alonso in this sense, who can swallow all the cr@p, dig deep, and still wring the speed out of the car to achieve a ... P10.

On the flipside Kimi has had a really solid season. I have been calling for his retirement for years already TBH, but I give credit, where credit is due. This year he is performing like a very solid #2 at the very least.

[Stan Reid]

Well like last time, it's Nico hooking his wagon to Lewis' tractor-that has to be really frustrating.

[Garry Walker]

Oh, and I have to spare a comment about Vettel too, the driver I am most cheering for. But apparently it looks like he has forgotten, how to even qualify. Which throughout years was always his strength and even in 2014 he was pretty formidable in qualis (but lost out to Ricciardo in races).

Vettel is a somewhat unique case among drivers as it seems like he is a pretty emotional/sensitive character, and this influences his performances. Which means he needs a "positive vibe" in the team to deliver results. Last year he was brilliant, and we remember 2015 was a positive year for Ferrari. Even 2016 started out on a pretty promising note, but some crashes, reliability problems and car performance problems have broken Vettel. It looks like the British Grand Prix was the turning point of the season, where Seb lost his heart. Since then he has been merely matching Räikkönen.

I know from personal experience that "things going for you" or "things working against you" can influence the emotional state and also influence "performance" to put it this way. So I can relate to Vettel. He is not like Alonso in this sense, who can swallow all the cr@p, dig deep, and still wring the speed out of the car to achieve a ... P10.

On the flipside Kimi has had a really solid season. I have been calling for his retirement for years already TBH, but I give credit, where credit is due. This year he is performing like a very solid #2 at the very least.
It is not that in 2015 bieber was brilliant, he wasn't. It was a case of Kimi just sucking.. Now finally this year Kimi, who is extremely sensitive to car behaviour, has a car he likes more (mid-season there were finally some suspension changes he had been asking for), he has been exposing bieber and bigtime. So this isn't about bieber performing badly, he is just performing on his usual level, but finally so too is Kimi. The problem is that this level is low compared to guys like Hamilton, Ricciardo, Alonso (and a few more).
Kimi has really exposed bieber and it is truly enjoyable to see his fanboys looking for excuses and more excuses. Time to face the truth, he is the most overrated driver of all times who just has happened to luck into some great cars.

[jens]

It is not that in 2015 bieber was brilliant, he wasn't. It was a case of Kimi just sucking..

If you look at qualifying and race gaps, in 2015 Vettel beat Räikkönen as thoroughly as Alonso had done the year before (2014). So yeah, in my book it was every bit of a brilliant season.

As I am yet to see a person, who says Alonso's 2014 wasn't brilliant...

[steveaki13]

Hi guys. Back from the wilderness for race time. Once I can get over the laptop/forum problems i hope to be around more.

Anyway. Looks like it has ingrediants to be a decent race.

[steveaki13]

I think this season has seen the Ferrari be slightly worse than expected after the first couple of rounds, but IMO Kimi has improved some and thats great to see. Him and Seb are pretty even. I would love Ferrari to produce a challenging car next year and see Kimi win a race and maybe a lot more.

[steveaki13]

Hey guys. Who is around? Anyone? :p

[Tazio]

Hi Steve an d and other bros :wave:
Hope we have a great race. BTW you may or may not know this, but I just read about it. Resourceful that Nico is: ;)
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... s-Hamilton (http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/9776303/nico-rosberg-says-he-needs-a-perfect-weekend-to-beat-lewis-hamilton)
Now I know why they call him Britney :idea: :D

[steveaki13]

Seb saying Massa should let him past.... brother what great racing that would be.... jeez

Hi Taz

[Stan Reid]

Slapsy Maxie almost did it!

[N4D13]

Well, this was one a boring race but for the last three or four laps. We might complain about "fake" tyre degradation and whatnot, but this wasn't particularly enjoyable - at least for me, anyway.

[steveaki13]

Vettel being a petulant kid. Why shouldnt Max take the penalty and try and help Ricciardo. Makes sense to me.

He was going to have to let Seb and then Daniel past and finish 5th so he might as well try and help his team mate and get 5th via penalty

[Garry Walker]

If you look at qualifying and race gaps, in 2015 Vettel beat Räikkönen as thoroughly as Alonso had done the year before (2014). So yeah, in my book it was every bit of a brilliant season.


No he didnt. You go and check the facts. Alonso was more impressive in qualifying, more impressive in races.

As for today, Cryttel really outdoing himself, if he doesnt get a penalty today for the move on Ric, then rules are dead. What a crybaby, what a little swine bitchboy. Most sickening character in F1.

Oh and well done to Ferrari for the team order on Kimi, nicely played.

[N4D13]

Vettel being a petulant kid. Why shouldnt Max take the penalty and try and help Ricciardo. Makes sense to me.

He was going to have to let Seb and then Daniel past and finish 5th so he might as well try and help his team mate and get 5th via penalty
Well, there's no argument that Vettel has been petulant for the whole race - I'd say the last few races, and his moaning has been insufferable. But that stuff from Max was plain dirty - he had no business being in front of Vettel to begin with, so of course he shouldn't have been trying to push him back. That's simply underhanded.

[COD]

Ladyboy got away with clearly cutting on first corner. Just gutted. Rules not same for everybody

[steveaki13]

Well, there's no argument that Vettel has been petulant for the whole race - I'd say the last few races, and his moaning has been insufferable. But that stuff from Max was plain dirty - he had no business being in front of Vettel to begin with, so of course he shouldn't have been trying to push him back. That's simply underhanded.

There again Seb moved on Ricciardo under braking like Max did in Japan, so deserves a penalty. Not that I agree with that. Its all to soft these days.

I still think it was smart from Max. Like when Schumacher with a puncture in Spain moved into his brother to allow Barrichello past. He had a damaged car and problem should not have risked collision with Ralf but it made a great spectacle.

[Stan Reid]

All Nico needs now is a second and a third in these last two races.

[N4D13]

Ladyboy got away with clearly cutting on first corner. Just gutted. Rules not same for everybody
I'm not in a position to judge anyone's kinks, but I find it surprising that two blond Germans have already got feminine (well, sort of) nicknames in this forum.

[steveaki13]

All Nico needs now is a second and a third in these last two races.

Which should be easy as you can get.


Why does everyone drivers & fans want penalties for everyone.... I want as few penalties as possible.

[steveaki13]

Weird how for over 55 years we never had rules about what drivers can do under braking and now its suddenly dangerous and needs new rules? Max was screwed by everyone ganging up on him and changing the rules so surely Vettel did the same.

[The Black Knight]

Vettel being a petulant kid. Why shouldnt Max take the penalty and try and help Ricciardo. Makes sense to me.

He was going to have to let Seb and then Daniel past and finish 5th so he might as well try and help his team mate and get 5th via penalty

It's a shame that Vettel lets himself down time after time again. The language he used was absolutely disgraceful and, in my opinion, completely out of order. As far as i am concerned he deserves a ban until next March and he can use that time to think about his behaviour.

He has had this a while now, he was spoon fed as a RBR driver and now that he isn't having it all his own way he loses the plot over the radio. This type of behaviour is not befitting a 4 time WDC.

Not alone that but he'a a hypocrite, he moved under braking and complains about Max doing it. It's a do as I say not as I do situation.

Personally, I don't want my kids watching F1 if this is going to be the standard of broadcasting.

One thing this shows is that Vettel is a boy under pressure. Being beaten by a slow Finn is pretty embarrassing.

Two race ban for his behaviour please.

[COD]

I'm not in a position to judge anyone's kinks, but I find it surprising that two blond Germans have already got feminine (well, sort of) nicknames in this forum.

The one I refeered to won the race. Got away 150m after turn 3 just by cutting and was never even investigated. Being Ham just forgives everything it seems

[jens]

Awesome ending to the race, hilarious. :D Wheel-to-wheel battling with emotions going high and a funny podium "waiting"!

Vettel is one crazy guy, when he is angry, but it adds spice to F1. Well, at least people can't complain drivers are boring and we don't have characters in F1. :D

And Kimi was "moved behind" Vettel, because Seb had better race pace, and had opportunity to compete against Red Bulls. Simples. Just like RBR asked Ricciardo to move over for Verstappen earlier in the race, when Max looked like could threaten Rosberg.

On reflection and looking at replays Verstappen's cutting and Hamilton's cutting at the start of the race seemed very similar, so perhaps they should have both got penalties...

Max-Boy himself of course... Always tries out the limits of rules. This time he didn't get away with it, but it doesn't prevent him from trying!

By the way, in case anyone noticed - great race by Ericsson! This despite getting crashed out at the start of the race!

People complain here on the forums, but - rather enjoy or if you don't enjoy, let's fight! :D Just like racers on race-track!

[jas123f1]

Why shouldnt Max take the penalty and try and help Ricciardo. Makes sense to me.

There are rules - that's why - rules are for everyone ..

[jens]

Cheer up, people! Why can't people enjoy historic moments of racing and always complain? Some of you are no better than Vettel himself - always sulky. Pot kettle black, lol. :D

[jens]

https://streamable.com/ciz8

And well, I can't see a penalty for Vettel here like some are complaining. Pretty straightforward lines. If there is a jinx, it is absolutely miniscule.

Which means some people (here) are pretty much acting like Vettel then - get carried away in the heat of action and start shouting. :D

As for Max' penalty. In fact I wouldn't have minded if he DIDN'T get a penalty and stood on the podium. At least the rules should be clarified or the track layout changed. Or both he AND Lewis should have got a penalty.

Ok, good night then. Wish you some nice nightmares of racing. :D

[N. Jones]

This is why I am happy Mexico is back. two races, both interesting. Better than a lot of other new "tracks"!

Max made a dumb move and paid the price. There were a few dumb moves that could have cost people time.

[N4D13]

The one I refeered to won the race. Got away 150m after turn 3 just by cutting and was never even investigated. Being Ham just forgives everything it seems
All right, I assumed you meant Rosberg after the turn 1 clash with Max. Still I see little point in calling drivers names.

And as for the "Hamilton isn't investigated, but Verstappen got a penalty" argument, I think that's actually really consistent with what we've seen from stewards for the last races or even seasons. Most of the time, if you overtake outside of track limits, you are given a penalty or ordered to give the place back, but apparently stewards aren't giving any penalties to cases where it's the defending driver who gets an advantage, such as Rosberg also cutting turns 1 & 2. It's not necessarily fair or clean, but it certainly is consistent.

[AndyL]

Well I thought that was a very enjoyable race. P1 and P2 were never in doubt but there were plenty of good battles throughout the field. Some of the interviews after the race were also entertaining :)

Hulkenberg almost drove a really great race, he was never going to be able to hold off the Ferraris, but just blotted his copybook a little with the spin.

Kimi gets a curious strategy again... a lot of the field did around 50 laps on the mediums, Palmer did effectively the entire race on one set, yet Kimi needed to get rid of his after about 23 laps or something. Hmmm.

If anything deserved a penalty today, it was Vettel's "message to Charlie."

[AndyL]

And as for the "Hamilton isn't investigated, but Verstappen got a penalty" argument, I think that's actually really consistent with what we've seen from stewards for the last races or even seasons. Most of the time, if you overtake outside of track limits, you are given a penalty or ordered to give the place back, but apparently stewards aren't giving any penalties to cases where it's the defending driver who gets an advantage, such as Rosberg also cutting turns 1 & 2. It's not necessarily fair or clean, but it certainly is consistent.

There does tend to be a certain amount of extra leeway allowed on lap 1 as well.

[Nitrodaze]

On reflection and looking at replays Verstappen's cutting and Hamilton's cutting at the start of the race seemed very similar, so perhaps they should have both got penalties...

Max-Boy himself of course... Always tries out the limits of rules. This time he didn't get away with it, but it doesn't prevent him from trying!

Clearly the stewards make allowances for the first lap dash to the first corner. Any other time Hamilton would have got a penalty. Hence why Verstapenn was unlucky with his trip to the green track. It was hilarious though to hear Vettel's frustration with the situation. Just goes to show how much the podium meant to Ferrari and Vettel.

It was all great F1 drama and simply priceless. I hope Vettel doesn't get anymore than a gentle warning about his language in open radio. As a four time world champion, he is expected of a higher standard of conduct. But when times are hard as it is for Ferrari at the moment, it is hard to hold down the emotions, hence, it would be great if this is taken into consideration.

Rosberg sort of was lucky to maintain second place. He clearly did not have the pace today. I think, if Vettel had not join the party at the front, Verstapenn would have got second place. The squabbling between the fiesty dutch and the four times world champion was just what Rosberg needed.

I was disappointed that Ferrari compromised Raikonenn's race with a poor strategy. Just shows the subtle ways that teams orchestrate the outcome of their driver positions.

[N. Jones]

Well I thought that was a very enjoyable race. P1 and P2 were never in doubt but there were plenty of good battles throughout the field. Some of the interviews after the race were also entertaining :)

Hulkenberg almost drove a really great race, he was never going to be able to hold off the Ferraris, but just blotted his copybook a little with the spin.

Kimi gets a curious strategy again... a lot of the field did around 50 laps on the mediums, Palmer did effectively the entire race on one set, yet Kimi needed to get rid of his after about 23 laps or something. Hmmm.

If anything deserved a penalty today, it was Vettel's "message to Charlie."

Yeah, Kimi pitting after doing about 21 laps on the mediums was curious to me.

[Nitrodaze]

Post-race, after Vettel was instructed to make his way quickly to the podium presentation, the stewards decided they would dish out a ten second penalty to Vettel for collision with Ricciado, after all ceremonies have concluded. Weird ????

If you are thinking the stewards are clowns, you would not be alone. The situation is highly comical to say the least. Ricciado aggressively stuck his nose in, Vettel simply closed the door. The way Ricciado went about it, left Vettel with little option but to do what he did. I think this is a covert way of punishing him for his colorful language on the radio. Whichever way you look at it, it is very abnormal and confusing from a spectator's perspective that the stewards would make one decision which resulted in Verstapenn being unceremoniously ejected from the podium and then later change their mind to eject the replacement of Verstapenn on the podium.

The confusion would suggest that Ricciado is gifted an undeserved podium. How nonsensical, this is the worst showing of an F1 stewardship.

[CNR]

Post-race, after Vettel was instructed to make his way quickly to the podium presentation, the stewards decided they would dish out a ten second penalty to Vettel for collision with Ricciado, after all ceremonies have concluded. Weird ????

If you are thinking the stewards are clowns, you would not be alone. The situation is highly comical to say the least. Ricciado aggressively stuck his nose in, Vettel simply closed the door. The way Ricciado went about it, left Vettel with little option but to do what he did. I think this is a covert way of punishing him for his colorful language on the radio. Whichever way you look at it, it is very abnormal and confusing from a spectator's perspective that the stewards would make one decision which resulted in Verstapenn being unceremoniously ejected from the podium and then later change their mind to eject the replacement of Verstapenn on the podium.

The confusion would suggest that Ricciado is gifted an undeserved podium. How nonsensical, this is the worst showing of an F1 stewardship.


http://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport/formula-one/f1-how-daniel-ricciardo-ended-up-finishing-third-in-the-mexican-grand-prix/news-story/fbbaefcbccb9d01602dcddd73b8370b3
ONE WEEK AGO
The key to Sebastian Vettel’s post-race penalty came one week ago, just ahead of the US Grand Prix at Austin. FIA Race Director Charlie Whiting issued an amendment to the rules of engagement for defensive driving.

The amended rule is reproduced in full below.

16) Defensive manoeuvres
16.1 Article 27.5 of the Sporting Regulations states that “ … no car may be driven … in a manner which could be potentially dangerous to other drivers…”, furthermore, Article 27.8 prohibits any manoeuvre “ … liable to hinder other drivers, such as … any abnormal change of direction”.

With this in mind, and with the exception of any move permitted by Article 27.6, any change of direction under braking which results in another driver having to take evasive action will be considered abnormal and hence potentially dangerous to other drivers. Any such move will be reported to the stewards.

The rule essentially outlawed any driver from changing their line under braking in order to fend off a passing move. It was nicknamed the “Verstappen rule” in the wake of criticism of the Red Bull teenager’s defensive techniques against Kimi Raikkonen in Hungary and Lewis Hamilton in Japan.

This rule change would be the key to what unfolded after the chequered flag at Hermanos Rodriguez.

[Big Ben]

Awesome ending to the race, hilarious. :D Wheel-to-wheel battling with emotions going high and a funny podium "waiting"!

Vettel is one crazy guy, when he is angry, but it adds spice to F1. Well, at least people can't complain drivers are boring and we don't have characters in F1. :D



His hissy fits are quite charming. Lovable character. And the other spoilt brat is quite charming as well. Verstappen should have been penalized for running Rosberg off the track as well.

[jens]

Ah, Vettel got a penalty. Oh, never mind. It must be the new "Verstappen rule" - for the smallest of offences. I have seen defence like that for decades and nothing happened.

But action was great, nothing can take that away. TBH, I needed to cool down a bit as well. :D

[The Black Knight]

Delighted that overrated pissy little German got a penalty for what happened with Ricciardo. He was one of the most vocal drivers about Verstappen moving under braking and it is only fitting he falls foul of the Verstappen rule before Max himself.

Now he should also get a ban for his behaviour over team radio. If he doesn't, it sets a precedent that any driver can verbally abuse the stewards and get away with it. This is not acceptable sporting behaviour in any sport.

[Franky]

Team radio is team radio. People are different and everyone has different tolerance in high stress moments. If you want 100% politically correct team radio, then you might as well have AI race instead. If you want to blame anyone, then whoever the people are selecting the radio messages for TV broadcast should be your target.

And I wouldn't compare Vettel's move with Verstappen's one against Räikkonen in Hungary as it was not as dangerous. Ricciardo has plenty of room when he did the move and in the turn it would had been a question who has the biggest balls anyway.

[COD]

This is what Ricciardo had to say, agree 100%
"“I didn't understand the start, how you can be leading the race, defend, lock your wheels and go off-track and still stay in the lead. I think Lewis deserved a penalty, I think anyone in that position deserves a penalty.
Read more at http://www.crash.net/f1/news/234908/1/ricciardo-furious-vettel-hamilton-go-unpunished.html#BPsp9IIZ3WEjQsGB.99

But it is also due to track. Hope they put sandtrap or something there for next year that will really punish that kind of move

[AndyL]

Team radio is team radio. People are different and everyone has different tolerance in high stress moments. If you want 100% politically correct team radio, then you might as well have AI race instead.

Just to be clear, I think most people are complaining specifically about Vettel directly insulting Charlie Whiting, not his general potty-mouthing.

I don't buy this argument that disrespecting the officials is just an uncontrollable reaction to stress.

If you want the proof, you can see it in what happened in the English Premier (football) League at the start of this season.
For many years, it's been common for players to confront, crowd around or yell at referees when decisions went against them. This behaviour was routinely excused by people saying that that the passion of the players is so intense, the stakes are so high, they can't help themselves, etc.
This year the FA announced a new zero-tolerance policy towards this; that players would be sent off for such dissent. Pundits predicted chaos on the first day with the season, with dozens of red cards being shown to players who just couldn't help expressing their feelings.
And what happened? No dissent, no red cards. Turns out that behaviour was completely under the players' control all along. They did it not because they couldn't help it, but because they could get away with it.


If you want to blame anyone, then whoever the people are selecting the radio messages for TV broadcast should be your target.

You have a point there. Just like the driver coaching messages, when the FIA went down that crazy blind alley of increasingly complex radio rules. It turned out the right answer to fans not wanting to hear drivers being coached, was to simply not broadcast it.

[Franky]

But that situation was a bit more complicated than just Verstappen vs Vettel. If there would had not been a very fast Ricciardo closing in on Vettel, then I'd say it was extreme overreacting. When you've got a driver in front of you who should let you pass because of getting an advantage and he does not let you pass, then you get a bit angry. But the feeling multiplies when you've got even faster guy catching you in an alarming speed.

Football players ...

[Mia 01]

First Ferrai screwed Kimi with the second ptistop, used mediums, what!!! He didn´t need to pit in the first Place.

Second, Max, after disobeying all rules and the team he backs Seb into Daniel and laughs all the way to the checkerflag. A deserved race ban that is. It´s in the cards.

[The Black Knight]

The situation was not complicated. Vettel verbally abused an official over the radio. Contributing factors have nothing to do with it. What you're saying is just smoke and mirrors. Contributing circumstance don't matter. We can all make excuses for what we do, it's something is human beings are great at doing but in the end it boils down to one thing, his verbal abuse of an official. What caused this behaviour is irrelevant. You would have never heard Schumacher abuse an official like that and, might I add, I doubt you'd have heard Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Rosberg, Ricciardio or Max do it either.

Alonso might get chirpy over the radio but hurl abuse at the Stewards he would never do. I'm not a fan of Charlie, I think someone else could do a much better job, but he still deserves respect as it's still a very difficult job he must do.

[Bagwan]

It seemed unclear if there was any directive from race control to have Max give back the position .
There was mention , also , during the broadcast , that , if Max would have been required to give back the position , he would have had 3 laps in which to do it .

So , backing Seb into Daniel was just a racing tactic .

I've seen split-screen of the 2 offs for Lewis and Max , and they are almost identical , which makes it hard to understand why one was and one wasn't penalized .
Other than keeping the title fight alive , it doesn't look like there's another upside to it .

Max was lucky as well to not cop another penalty for pushing Nico off .


Sebastian whined his way onto the podium with a blue rant directly at the race director , only to have it taken away from him after further investigation , and thus , deserves to apologize for his childish antics to all and sundry .
At this point , the little boy needs a swear jar , where each foul word gets him a five-place demotion .
And , he does need some sanction for his words at Charlie . You should not be allowed to do that , ever .

[The Black Knight]

It seemed unclear if there was any directive from race control to have Max give back the position .
There was mention , also , during the broadcast , that , if Max would have been required to give back the position , he would have had 3 laps in which to do it .

So , backing Seb into Daniel was just a racing tactic .

I've seen split-screen of the 2 offs for Lewis and Max , and they are almost identical , which makes it hard to understand why one was and one wasn't penalized .
Other than keeping the title fight alive , it doesn't look like there's another upside to it .

Max was lucky as well to not cop another penalty for pushing Nico off .


Sebastian whined his way onto the podium with a blue rant directly at the race director , only to have it taken away from him after further investigation , and thus , deserves to apologize for his childish antics to all and sundry .
At this point , the little boy needs a swear jar , where each foul word gets him a five-place demotion .
And , he does need some sanction for his words at Charlie . You should not be allowed to do that , ever .

I agree 100% with everything you said except that as with other sports would be I think a race ban should be in order.

Unfortunately there is lack of consistency in the rules. Lewis didn't get penalised at the start and neither did Nico. If Max received one, Lewis should have also. They were very similar incidents.

The Stewards tend to take a more lenient view of the starts than the rest of the race however and this appears to be the only difference between the two incidents that I can see.

[Franky]

You would have never heard Schumacher abuse an official like that and, might I add, I doubt you'd have heard Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Rosberg, Ricciardio or Max do it either.

Hypothetical as none of us have heard all their team radio sessions. Who I'd blame here are literally the guys behind the selection of team radio. In media there is a term "gatekeepers" and this time the production team filter just failed. How Vettel behaved is purely his own mess to sort out.

It's time for Charlie to retire.

I'll rest my case

[Bagwan]

Hypothetical as none of us have heard all their team radio sessions. Who I'd blame here are literally the guys behind the selection of team radio. In media there is a term "gatekeepers" and this time the production team filter just failed. How Vettel behaved is purely his own mess to sort out.

It's time for Charlie to retire.

I'll rest my case

Those in a place to decide what to broadcast do a pretty good job as far as I see it .
It is their place to supply the most tense of moments in the competition with the conversations that are relevant , to give us a look in to the emotions involved .

All the drivers and teams know this to be the case , and thus , should behave accordingly .

I feel we would have lost context completely if we were not to have had the moment shared at the time and , instead , long after the fact , had the news that Vettel had been swearing at Charlie , so was perhaps to be sanctioned as a result .

It's the passion from inside the car it presents , alongside the commentary , that I enjoy .
I think they do a great job .

Now , Charlie has a little explaining to do of his own .
He let Vettel onto the podium due to a move that had Max on the same trajectory as Lewis while there was still investigation going on over the issue with Ricciardo , who should have been on the podium in the end .

Technically , Max should have been on the podium , I think , and facing questions about it , and things would normally be sorted later .

But , somehow , swearing loudly and often gets you action , and a podium to stand on , even if only briefly .

[Nem14]

And so ends another race in the Formula 1 Whiner's - uh, Driver's World Championship.

[AndyL]

It seemed unclear if there was any directive from race control to have Max give back the position .
There was mention , also , during the broadcast , that , if Max would have been required to give back the position , he would have had 3 laps in which to do it .


It was clear actually, there was an announcement from race control that the incident would be investigated after the race.

[Koz]

Wasn't Max ordered to give the place back by his engineer?

[CNR]

The situation was not complicated. Vettel verbally abused an official over the radio. Contributing factors have nothing to do with it.

video of vettle can be seen at this link http://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2016/10/ricciardo--vettel-didn-t-deserve-podium.html
warring link contains abusive language

[The Black Knight]

Hypothetical as none of us have heard all their team radio sessions. Who I'd blame here are literally the guys behind the selection of team radio. In media there is a term "gatekeepers" and this time the production team filter just failed. How Vettel behaved is purely his own mess to sort out.

It's time for Charlie to retire.

I'll rest my case

The broadcasters are entitled to broadcast whatever they want. It's not like the drivers aren't aware they may be broadcast so blaming them broadcasters is a mute point.


Wasn't Max ordered to give the place back by his engineer?

No, he was told he might have to give it back. He never received confirmation so was correct to retain the position. I still think he should have got 3rd spot. Does anyone not remember Rosberg in Canada two years ago doing the same thing when Lewis was about to over take him?

One of the big problems remain here, and that is that there is no consistency. Personally, I think they should be free to race like they were 20 years ago, bump wheels do whatever they want. The problem is that the sport has been introducing these rules at random without any real thorough foresight. They have been reactive rather than proactive about everything that happens.

If you are going to have a set of rules defined for a sport then fine, define them well and stick to them throughout the year 100% but if you're not then don't bother with them and just leave the guys race. It's the same old nonsense as track limits. There was none of that rubbish 20 years ago and the racing was great.

[The Black Knight]

Anyway, word on the wire is that the FIA have launched a probe into Vettel's abuse of Charlie and it's looking likely he'll get a race ban or two for it. Fingers crossed that he does. This sort of behavior can't be tolerated or allowed to creep into the sport.

[Franky]

The broadcasters are entitled to broadcast whatever they want. It's not like the drivers aren't aware they may be broadcast so blaming them broadcasters is a mute point.

If a news outlet would publish an extremely graphic photo, you'd blame the photographer?

If F1 wants to be a "family TV sport show" then the production team are the ones who are the censors/gatekeepers.

[Bagwan]

If a news outlet would publish an extremely graphic photo, you'd blame the photographer?

If F1 wants to be a "family TV sport show" then the production team are the ones who are the censors/gatekeepers.

And those censors bleeped the appropriate words in the outburst , giving all those families watching , the perfect teaching moment for the kids .
To have him penalized for his abusive and foul language is perfectly placed to complete the idea that the act was unacceptable and that self-control is paramount .

These guys are heroes , and will suffer if they don't act the part .

[Bagwan]

It was clear actually, there was an announcement from race control that the incident would be investigated after the race.

According to JA , there was , indeed , a directive from race control for Max to give the place back .
It was only unclear to us , as I suggested , Andy .

[Pechito37]

BAH!
They only looked at this fully ,(except sainz pushing off Alonso, though they said it was at turn one. On the 2nd straight lads!)
Hamilton cut across for no reason, should have gave it back,
everything else was BS.
and Vettel, CALM THE HAM DOWN!

[Nitrodaze]

[url]

16) Defensive manoeuvres
16.1 Article 27.5 of the Sporting Regulations states that “ … no car may be driven … in a manner which could be potentially dangerous to other drivers…”, furthermore, Article 27.8 prohibits any manoeuvre “ … liable to hinder other drivers, such as … any abnormal change of direction”.

The thing about rules is someone has to interpret them for each situation that arise. The problem with this particular rule is that it is too vague hence may be subject to varying interpretations. The essential act of racing is to drive as fast as you can and to do your utmost to keep other drivers behind you. Even at the best of times, keeping other driver behind is effectively hindering those drivers trying to pass. And such defensive action may on occasions cause other drivers to stray of the track.

What l am getting at is, if we were to take this new rule literally, there would be no racing but an orderly fast procession. The rule was introduced to prevent last minute defensive change of direction which causes a following driver to take evasive action to prevent a collision. When a decision which is not in this particular vein is derived from the new rule, it clearly shows a lazy interpretation of the rules.

Ricciado's attempt to lever an overtake on Vettel was prospective and would have only worked if the driver in front assisted the overtake. Vettel is not Bottas, a hard nose racer like him would not tolerate that sort of move. Deep down, Ricciado knew that overtake was not really on. Not at that corner anyway.

The main problem with the decision was it looked fickle and lacking of thorough deliberation [rushed]. It was simply the worst showing of stewardship in recent years.

[The Black Knight]

If a news outlet would publish an extremely graphic photo, you'd blame the photographer?

If F1 wants to be a "family TV sport show" then the production team are the ones who are the censors/gatekeepers.

The commentary from Vettel on Sunday was beeped out for the onlooking audience. In football, players have gotten banned this year for abusing the referee. Not all of these incidents have or need to be on TV for them to get punished. Whether they are broadcast or not, they still deserve punishment.

And the broadcasts on Sunday were beeped out anyway to lessen the impact on the viewing audience. The viewers are entitled to know what is going on but, likewise, they are also entitled to watch a motor race without listening to expletives from frustrated drivers.

[AndyL]

According to JA , there was , indeed , a directive from race control for Max to give the place back .
It was only unclear to us , as I suggested , Andy .

"This website understands that Red Bull was told by the FIA stewards that Verstappen should give the place to Vettel – a message which Ferrari heard and relayed to its driver. This message to Vettel was heard by TV audiences but was thought to refer to an informal message to Verstappen from his race engineer soon after the incident."

That's at odds with the official race control announcement that was put on screen saying the incident would be investigated after the race, which was a very clear statement. And is also the usual practice for incidents in the last 5 laps. I wonder who has told that website that the stewards made such a decision during the race.

[AndyL]

Having reviewed the stewards' decisions (http://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-one-world-championship/season-2016/event-timing-information-19) and the sporting regulations, I think Alex Kalinauckas writing on the James Allen site either understood wrongly, or at least did not accurately describe the situation.

There is no stewards' decision requiring Max to give the place back, only a decision to impose a 5 second time penalty, which is in line with the announcement that the incident would be investigated after the race.


Fact: Car 33 left the track in turn 1, gaining a lasting advantage.
Offence: Breach of Article 27.4 of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations.
Decision: 5 Second Time Penalty imposed after the race in accordance with Article 38.3 (5 seconds added to elapsed race time)
(1 penalty points awarded, 4 points total for the 12 month period)


Which is not surprising, because there is no provision in the rules for the stewards to instruct a driver to give a place back. Only this:

At the absolute discretion of the race director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.
So it may be that Charlie gave Red Bull the option to give the place back, in order to avoid a penalty; or advised them that they would receive a penalty after the race if they did not do so. But it's not something that can be ordered or imposed by the stewards. If Ferrari told Vettel that Verstappen had to give the place back on track, they were wrong.

I don't think there is any lack of clarity, except perhaps emerging from PR desks at Maranello and Milton Keynes.

[zako85]

Will Power was fined 30,000USD for showing fingers to the officials.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScDjyS7SYZU

[Bagwan]

It's pretty muddled , in my view .
Brundle is saying there was never a directive from race control regarding giving the place back , whilst JA says the opposite .

We did hear the team tell him he should .
It isn't clear whether Charlie was involved from what we heard , but , given the reds were so adamant he was , I think it's likely we just didn't hear the transmission .

As you point out , though , it would have been a directive about an "opportunity" to give the place back to avoid sanction , if it was anything at all .

In a way , it's a "get out of jail free" card for the perp , being faced with a charge , knowing they don't charge you if they don't think you're guilty .
It's a "give it back , or else..." scenario , really .

If I were Max , I would understand wanting to take his chance in the steward's room , because he saw what had happened earlier at the start , and had taken pretty much the same line .


Something that occurs to me now , is that Max , who , in a normally investigated incidents would have been interviewed before being sanctioned for one , clearly wasn't , before being unceremoniously removed from the podium ante-room by Herbie Blash on Sunday .
Certainly , Seb was interviewed before his podium was stripped .

[Nitrodaze]

Having reviewed the stewards' decisions (http://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-one-world-championship/season-2016/event-timing-information-19) and the sporting regulations, I think Alex Kalinauckas writing on the James Allen site either understood wrongly, or at least did not accurately describe the situation.

There is no stewards' decision requiring Max to give the place back, only a decision to impose a 5 second time penalty, which is in line with the announcement that the incident would be investigated after the race.


Which is not surprising, because there is no provision in the rules for the stewards to instruct a driver to give a place back. Only this:

So it may be that Charlie gave Red Bull the option to give the place back, in order to avoid a penalty; or advised them that they would receive a penalty after the race if they did not do so. But it's not something that can be ordered or imposed by the stewards. If Ferrari told Vettel that Verstappen had to give the place back on track, they were wrong.

I don't think there is any lack of clarity, except perhaps emerging from PR desks at Maranello and Milton Keynes.

Well said that man :-)

I think the real beef was the brewing dislike for Verstapenn by some drivers on the grid for his defensive antics. The stewards have failed to deal with it. And the new rule brought in to curb Max's reluctance to change has also created further problems for drivers. The interesting development is the clear antagonism between Redbull and Ferrari that has surfaced because of all this. Redbull's former favorite driver versus Redbull current new discovery.

I am sure it would boil down to a storm in a tea cup. Probably the only real action of interest this season.

[Nitrodaze]

The question was, "Did Verstapenn gained an unfair advantage by cutting the corner via the grass". The answer is simply Yes he did. With the team clearly acknowledging that an unfair advantage has been attained and instructing their driver to give the place back, but the driver in question refusing to follow the instruction of the team; created the problem that arose.

The incident has exposed a few disturbing facts:-

1. Redbull are clearly having compliance difficulty with their new recruit. A rookie refusing to comply with a team instruction is a clear indication that the team have a control problem.

2. The stewards and probably race control were abit slow to clarify their position with respect to how they would like to deal with the issue. Either a notification that it would be looked at after the race or a suggestion that the place should be given back. Whatever the case, the lack of notification created uncertainty and frustration. Certainly enough to annoy Vettel.

3. The rules do not have a provision for the stewards or race control to demand a reversion of position to address the infringement of the rules. But it clearly empowers the stewards to impose a punishment during or after the race. Thus it is at the discretion of the team to resolve the infringement of the rules before the stewards impose a punishment. This is where the team in question had failed to prevent the fiasco that ensued from happening.

4. However, once the stewards have deliberated and issued a penalty and rewarded whomever they thought was the aggrieved party, that rewarded driver was formally, in open ceremony acknowledged to be the rightful person to receive the awarded trophy. That should have been it. Any further issue or complaints should have been referred to commitees that deal with complaints. [if one exist]

5. The screening process of improper language over the radio seem nonexistent. Improper language should be properly screened from getting in the public domain.

6. Drivers seem to be quite wayward nowadays. It has become very common to hear and see drivers clearly disregard the instructions of the teams during races. There is a surprising increase of lack of respect between the pitwall and the drivers recently.

These are my observations. I wonder what you chaps have noticed?

[The Black Knight]

I understand why Hamilton didn't get a penalty and why Verstappen did and it's fairly straight forward the reasoning for it.

What I don't understand is how Verstappen's move was any different to Nico Rosberg in Canada (last year I think it was) when Hamilton was overtaking him down the back straight only for him to out-brake himself and keep the position. The position was Hamilton's were it not for that and yet the Stewards did nothing. It's another case of inconsistency.

[Nitrodaze]

I understand why Hamilton didn't get a penalty and why Verstappen did and it's fairly straight forward the reasoning for it.

What I don't understand is how Verstappen's move was any different to Nico Rosberg in Canada (last year I think it was) when Hamilton was overtaking him down the back straight only for him to out-brake himself and keep the position. The position was Hamilton's were it not for that and yet the Stewards did nothing. It's another case of inconsistency.

For a start, it was two cars of the same team and there was no team complaint if l remember correctly. But it was certainly inconsistent from a driver's perspective. I thought they got the Rosberg instance wrong. The Verstappen instance involved two competing teams. The associated politics alone necessitates some sort of action to be taken.

[Phoenix]

I understand why Hamilton didn't get a penalty and why Verstappen did and it's fairly straight forward the reasoning for it.

What I don't understand is how Verstappen's move was any different to Nico Rosberg in Canada (last year I think it was) when Hamilton was overtaking him down the back straight only for him to out-brake himself and keep the position. The position was Hamilton's were it not for that and yet the Stewards did nothing. It's another case of inconsistency.

I think in this instance Lewis retired the following lap - his having outbraked himself was a result of MGUK recovery failure and the brakes overheating and failing.

[Nitrodaze]

The one I refeered to won the race. Got away 150m after turn 3 just by cutting and was never even investigated. Being Ham just forgives everything it seems

Actually both Mercs did cut the corner on the first lap. If any punishment were to be levied, it would have been for both Hamilton and Rosberg. Now that would have made the last few races more interesting, don't you think. Besides the stewards seemed clueless this weekend.