German GP 2016 - Hockenhiem

[Nitrodaze]

A track laid out like a ladies boots, has been redesigned lately and shortened from 4.2 miles to 2.8miles. A 67 lap race which still has the fast long section through the forest. You would be glad to know the motordrum section has been retained.

http://e2.365dm.com/15/03/16-9/20/formula-one-grand-prix-hockenheim_3278316.jpg?20150317144522

Rosberg on home tuff would be looking to regain the lead by one point with home support. If Hamilton wins in Hockenhiem, Rosberg would drift further back by a minimum of 12 points. Hence a win here is a must for Rosberg. The twisty section through the motodrum would suit the Redbull and may bring them closer to the Mercedes but they may lose out on the long fast straight through the forest. Turn four is pegged by Martin Brundle as a possible place for overtakes.

I am not sure how well the Ferrari would do on this track, but they would be keen to get ahead of the Redbulls in this race. Redbull have a chance of taking 2nd place in the constructor championship from Ferrari. With the departure of James Allison, a relegation to 3rd would not go unnoticed. We look forward to another battle between Verstapenn and Raikonen. The dutchman has got the better of the world champion each time they have battled this season. Would Raikonenn get a chance to put the rookie in his place this time round?

[AndyL]

I do like that fan's-eye view of the stadium section.

[Tazio]

Boss under investigation for unsafe release on to pit lane. A reprimand (his third) will result in a 5 place grid drop.

[N4D13]

Kyvat out in Q1. How long before STR give him the boot? This is getting ridiculous.

[Bagwan]

Nico grabs pole and there's nobody around to talk about it .
How surprising .

Lewis and Nico looked like best buddies during the press conference , didn't they ?

It might just be a little tense at the first corner tomorrow . Hee hee .

[Tazio]

Monster lap from Nico Baggy, In the post Q conference Boss seemed to be sulking a little ;). Hulk being investigated for using a a set of tires in Q that he was supposed to give back, and Sainz gets a 3 spot grid drop for impeding Felipe. Honey Badger was impressive, and The Reds seem to be going backwards. Slight possibility of rain tomorrow. I hope it appears for the sake of RB, although their should be good racing from p7 down!

[steveaki13]

I was away today so missed it.

I will also miss tomorrow live. Sorry to say

[AndyL]

An excellent pole position by Nico, overcoming technical issues on his first run and consequently an incorrect fuel load for his final run. Should be a great fight tomorrow.

Bizarrely Hulkenberg has a 1-place grid penalty for using an incorrect set of tyres.

[N4D13]

Look, Alo has just passed Massa without team orders! :D

By the way, what a terrible start from Nico. He looked really well for the win here, yet he's managed to write himself off. Well, unless something really odd (SCs, rain, etc.) happens.

[andyone]

this shows how Rosberg is compared to Lewis. he probably was worrying too much about Hamilton before realizing that he had to worry more about the Redbulls

[gm99]

Look, Alo has just passed Massa without team orders! :D


Massa is having yet another terrible race. It almost looks like he can't be bothered anymore. I would be very surprised to still see him in F1 next season.

Nice fight between Alonso & Gutierrez, btw.

[gm99]

Nico doing exactly the same to Verstappen that he did to Hamilton in Austria :o

[Koz]

What a dirty player he is.

I hope he gets a penalty.

[yodasarmpit]

Nico doing exactly the same to Verstappen that he did to Hamilton in Austria :o

He didn't even attempt to turn.

[Koz]

5 second penalty! Thank you FIA!

[gm99]

I hope he gets a penalty.

5 sec penalty. Not enough for a repeat offender IMO.

[N4D13]

I'm really glad to see that the FIA aren't allowing this kind of manoeuver anymore. However, this looks a lot similar to some of Kobayashi's moves which were hailed in this same forum, when he basically forced other drivers to turn away from the apex or crash. It's like we're noticing that it's dirty just because Nico has done it.

[Koz]

5 sec penalty. Not enough for a repeat offender IMO.

"Can you explain to them that I was full lock on the steering wheel".

What a lying little shit. Disgraceful.

[gm99]

He was full lock, but only after he had forced Verstappen off :p

[AndyL]

Massa is having yet another terrible race. It almost looks like he can't be bothered anymore. I would be very surprised to still see him in F1 next season.

Completely unfair. Clearly he has a technical problem.

[yodasarmpit]

I'm really glad to see that the FIA aren't allowing this kind of manoeuver anymore. However, this looks a lot similar to some of Kobayashi's moves which were hailed in this same forum, when he basically forced other drivers to turn away from the apex or crash. It's like we're noticing that it's dirty just because Nico has done it.
I want to see agresive overtaking manovers, but once he was alongside he didn't make the slightest attempt to take the corner.

[N4D13]

Completely unfair. Clearly he has a technical problem.
He complained early in the race that someone had hit him and that the back of the car was behaving funny.

[AndyL]

Ridiculous penalty for Rosberg.

That was Max's mistake. Seeing Rosberg coming from so far back, he should have known Rosberg would be wide on the exit. If he'd stayed wide on the way in he could have taken the place back with a cut-back on the way out.

If you try to hang it round the outside on the way out of a corner when you've been passed up the inside, the other guy is going to show you to the white line. It was true when Hamilton did it to Rosberg in Canada, and it's true here.

[N4D13]

Completely unfair. Clearly he has a technical problem.
He complained early in the race that someone had hit him and that the back of the car was behaving funnily.

[AndyL]

I want to see agresive overtaking manovers, but once he was alongside he didn't make the slightest attempt to take the corner.

Did you see how far back he came from? If it was possible to steam into the corner that hot and still take a nice tight line on the way out, they'd all be doing it every lap wouldn't they.

[Koz]

I'm really glad to see that the FIA aren't allowing this kind of manoeuver anymore. However, this looks a lot similar to some of Kobayashi's moves which were hailed in this same forum, when he basically forced other drivers to turn away from the apex or crash. It's like we're noticing that it's dirty just because Nico has done it.

I don't remember Kobayashi ever not turning in, to push someone off the track.

[N4D13]

I don't remember Kobayashi ever not turning in, to push someone off the track.
Well, I can recall a few times when he did the exact same thing AndyL described above; he divebombed and forced the oppposing driver to steer away from him in order to avoid a crash. Of course this would end up with the other driver reducing their speed significantly and/or out of the track boundaries.

[yodasarmpit]

Did you see how far back he came from? If it was possible to steam into the corner that hot and still take a nice tight line on the way out, they'd all be doing it every lap wouldn't they.

He did come in hot from a good distance away (which is awesome) but he had the car under control with no lock up and then made zero attempt to turn the wheel.

[Koz]

Well, I can recall a few times when he did the exact same thing AndyL described above; he divebombed and forced the oppposing driver to steer away from him in order to avoid a crash. Of course this would end up with the other driver reducing their speed significantly and/or out of the track boundaries.

But when he he push someone out on the outside while attempting to not taking the corner?

I'm all for hard racing. But this isn't racing, this just seems cheap. It's even cheaper when it isn't a one off. And it's far worse when he is on the radio complaining that he was on "full lock" - when we saw the onboard.

Exactly what yodasarmpit said, there was no lock up, just no attempt.

[N4D13]

You know it's been a lame race when discussing Rosberg's move has been more entertaining than the race itself.

[AndyL]

He did come in hot from a good distance away (which is awesome) but he had the car under control with no lock up and then made zero attempt to turn the wheel.

He was still hard on the brakes. He couldn't turn in to the apex because he'd braked much too late to do that. To reiterate my earlier point, if you could brake that late and still get anywhere near the apex of the corner, then Max would also have done it and reached the apex well ahead of Rosberg.

[andyone]

Ridiculous penalty for Rosberg.

That was Max's mistake. Seeing Rosberg coming from so far back, he should have known Rosberg would be wide on the exit. If he'd stayed wide on the way in he could have taken the place back with a cut-back on the way out.

If you try to hang it round the outside on the way out of a corner when you've been passed up the inside, the other guy is going to show you to the white line. It was true when Hamilton did it to Rosberg in Canada, and it's true here.

are you for Real?? are you that Blind?

[N. Jones]

It's time for Felipe to retire. Another poor showing.

[Bagwan]

Ridiculous penalty for Rosberg.

That was Max's mistake. Seeing Rosberg coming from so far back, he should have known Rosberg would be wide on the exit. If he'd stayed wide on the way in he could have taken the place back with a cut-back on the way out.

If you try to hang it round the outside on the way out of a corner when you've been passed up the inside, the other guy is going to show you to the white line. It was true when Hamilton did it to Rosberg in Canada, and it's true here.

A lot of points made there , Andy .

You're right that Max had a pretty good chance of getting the inside line out of the corner , and he might have guessed , that overspeed Nico had run too deep .
But , he chose the outside , which was his choice to make .

Ant Davidson stated , during his analysis , that Nico couldn't have braked harder without locking , which would have had him sliding even deeper . He also mentioned that turning the wheel to full lock before he did would likely have resulted in a slide as well .

Horner , stated he should have locked it up and made some smoke if he wanted to look more believable .

One of the commentators showed a sequence at the start where the Honey Badger ran his team-mate even wider than Nico did .



I didn't like it in Canada , and I don't like it here .
In Canada , it wasn't investigated .
Here , it wasn't investigated in the first corner , and then penalized almost immediately later on in the race .

[airshifter]

I didn't see any real attempt at Nico turning in until Max was pushed off the track. And personally I think the penalty was mild. Application of the penalty after letting the driver maintain position still puts the other driver in dirty air, and in the situation they have to pass to get into clean air. If it wasn't a legit pass, IMHO the proper penalty would be to make them give the position back on track, as is done when a driver cuts a chicane and gains advantage.

I do also have to agree with Bagwan in the sense that it seems to be another rule that only applies sometimes, and should be investigated more often. These days with telemetry and the like the stewards should be able to more accurately assess whether the driver could turn in, or if they simply overcooked it into a corner and misjudged.



Other than that incident, great job by Lewis up front and controlling things, not sure what was up with Felipe or his car, but some good results from Button and the McLaren, even though Fred didn't quite stay in the points. That must be a good handling car, because it was just unreal how easily the Mercedes just drove by under power.

I'm not sure if the RB engine upgrades are just that good, or if Ferrari is losing out on downforce and handling development. I suspect the later, as it seems the reds just don't work very well unless in clean air. Then again, Seb was off the pace all weekend compared to Kimi, but quick enough to keep him behind after a good start. I wonder if Kimi might have had any chance to keep up with the RB cars?

[steveaki13]

I thought the incident was less clear than Austria to be honest.

I kind of get fed up with all these penalties.

[The Black Knight]

I thought the incident was less clear than Austria to be honest.

I kind of get fed up with all these penalties.

I don't think it deserved a penalty. At most, Rosberg should have had to give the place back. A 5 second penalty was too harsh for hard racing.

What bothers me most here is the penalty itself. The stewards deemed the move illegal and slapped Rosberg with a penalty that could have potentially made zero difference to his race and still disadvantaged Max. Should Rosberg have been able to open up a 5 second gap to Max, potentially, the net effect of the penalty to Rosberg could have been 0. My point being, the punishment did not fit the crime.

We shouldn't stop drivers trying to race like that and, imo, it would have been appropriate and fair for Rosberg to have had to simply give the position back to Max.

[airshifter]

I don't think it deserved a penalty. At most, Rosberg should have had to give the place back. A 5 second penalty was too harsh for hard racing.

What bothers me most here is the penalty itself. The stewards deemed the move illegal and slapped Rosberg with a penalty that could have potentially made zero difference to his race and still disadvantaged Max. Should Rosberg have been able to open up a 5 second gap to Max, potentially, the net effect of the penalty to Rosberg could have been 0. My point being, the punishment did not fit the crime.

We shouldn't stop drivers trying to race like that and, imo, it would have been appropriate and fair for Rosberg to have had to simply give the position back to Max.

In this case, I thought a penalty was deserved, but I can agree that the penalty was harsh or mild depending on which driver view is being taken. Mild for Nico, as he was in clean air, and harsh on Max, as he was in dirty air. Assuming that the incident warranted a penalty. Giving back the position makes a lot more sense.

The 5 second penalty is IMHO, just messed up regardless. Due to the way they enforce it, the penalty can be taken in the pit or added to the final race time. With track position being so vital it seems that the pit sequence and tire selection might have impact on just how much track position that 5 seconds really cost a driver.

[Bagwan]

There is an explanation on the TJ13 site that has me reconsidering whether it was worth a penalty for Nico .

Early in the braking phase , Max jinks to the right , and Nico reacts with a tighter line than he wanted into the corner .
This compromised his move significantly , and had him running far deeper than he would have .

Thus , Max was responsible to a large degree .

It was , though , the perfect prompt for him to brake and try it inside .


One thing struck me , though , that is an impressive , and seemingly something that is usually more reserved for wily veterans of the sport , is that Max used his knowledge of Rosberg's history to know he could get away with being forced off to gain the advantage .
He then reinforced the idea with a sly quip to Lewis about it in the presser .
This built on his story , and went some way towards destabilizing his rivals as well .
Very , very impressive .

[truefan72]

There is an explanation on the TJ13 site that has me reconsidering whether it was worth a penalty for Nico .

Early in the braking phase , Max jinks to the right , and Nico reacts with a tighter line than he wanted into the corner .
This compromised his move significantly , and had him running far deeper than he would have .

Thus , Max was responsible to a large degree .

It was , though , the perfect prompt for him to brake and try it inside .


One thing struck me , though , that is an impressive , and seemingly something that is usually more reserved for wily veterans of the sport , is that Max used his knowledge of Rosberg's history to know he could get away with being forced off to gain the advantage .
He then reinforced the idea with a sly quip to Lewis about it in the presser .
This built on his story , and went some way towards destabilizing his rivals as well .
Very , very impressive .

smh
how you summized that is incredible

[Bagwan]

smh
how you summized that is incredible

Your grammar and punctuation is poor in that post .
Your point is unclear .
Could you elaborate , please .

[Nitrodaze]

I don't think it deserved a penalty. At most, Rosberg should have had to give the place back. A 5 second penalty was too harsh for hard racing.

What bothers me most here is the penalty itself. The stewards deemed the move illegal and slapped Rosberg with a penalty that could have potentially made zero difference to his race and still disadvantaged Max. Should Rosberg have been able to open up a 5 second gap to Max, potentially, the net effect of the penalty to Rosberg could have been 0. My point being, the punishment did not fit the crime.

We shouldn't stop drivers trying to race like that and, imo, it would have been appropriate and fair for Rosberg to have had to simply give the position back to Max.

I agree, the punishment did not take into consideration the impact of the punishment on the driver who is a main contender in this years championship. It was unnecessarily harsh especially since this instance was less serious than the Austria case where Rosberg was let off with the benefit of the doubt. The problem, was the punishment was inconsistent at best but also in excess of the infringement.

[Zico]

There is an explanation on the TJ13 site that has me reconsidering whether it was worth a penalty for Nico .

Early in the braking phase , Max jinks to the right , and Nico reacts with a tighter line than he wanted into the corner .
This compromised his move significantly , and had him running far deeper than he would have .

Thus , Max was responsible to a large degree .

It was , though , the perfect prompt for him to brake and try it inside .


One thing struck me , though , that is an impressive , and seemingly something that is usually more reserved for wily veterans of the sport , is that Max used his knowledge of Rosberg's history to know he could get away with being forced off to gain the advantage .
He then reinforced the idea with a sly quip to Lewis about it in the presser .
This built on his story , and went some way towards destabilizing his rivals as well .
Very , very impressive .



I hadn't thought of it that way... but yes, by drawing attention to Nico's previous he not only gained advantage but also somewhat diverted attention away from his own questionable defensive antics. Genius!

He is clearly a very talented young driver with a huge future ahead of him but he is going to have to cut out his little moves and feints in the braking area, that is not acceptable IMHO and I do not understand why the Stewards haven't taken issue with them yet.

[Bagwan]

I hadn't thought of it that way... but yes, by drawing attention to Nico's previous he not only gained advantage but also somewhat diverted attention away from his own questionable defensive antics. Genius!

He is clearly a very talented young driver with a huge future ahead of him but he is going to have to cut out his little moves and feints in the braking area, that is not acceptable IMHO and I do not understand why the Stewards haven't taken issue with them yet.

Oh , this kid is good .
Notice how he also mentioned how he "took one for the team" as well ?
That's a reminder for Riccardo that he's a team player , even though it would have hurt both of them to have had a fight for the position .

And , for the fans , he was adamant that , since the stewards had seen nothing wrong in his moves that lost Kimi some wing , he hadn't done anything to warrant all the others giving him a hard time .
It was an elegant "nose-thumbing" of the rest of the group .

This kid is going to give us all lots to talk about .
I'm becoming a fan of the ugly little guy .

[Mia 01]

So true Bagwan, so true. A very clever boy, even Lewis can´t beat his defending skills.

[henners88]

I see Nico forgot to turn right again. His claim he was on 'full lock' despite his onboard camera showing otherwise was a little bit embarrassing for him. I do think the penalty was a bit extreme though.

I hope he drops the dirty moves and gets back in the game as I would like to see a tight fight at the end of the season. Hamilton has already clawed back a 43 point lead from Nico and the boy needs to wake up and fight!

Verstappen continues to impress at such a young age.

[Bagwan]

I see Nico forgot to turn right again. His claim he was on 'full lock' despite his onboard camera showing otherwise was a little bit embarrassing for him. I do think the penalty was a bit extreme though.

I hope he drops the dirty moves and gets back in the game as I would like to see a tight fight at the end of the season. Hamilton has already clawed back a 43 point lead from Nico and the boy needs to wake up and fight!

Verstappen continues to impress at such a young age.

He did get around to it , a little too late , so , to say he didn't get to full lock isn't accurate at all .
Ant Davidson remarked that it's unlikely he could have braked any harder without locking .
And , that he would have slid farther had he locked up .

Horner then commented that it might have been more believable had he locked .


So , if you look at it in that light , flat spotting his tire(s) , not a sign of being in control , was the way to get out of this .
That doesn't seem right , does it ?

[Starter]

He did get around to it , a little too late , so , to say he didn't get to full lock isn't accurate at all .
Ant Davidson remarked that it's unlikely he could have braked any harder without locking .
And , that he would have slid farther had he locked up .

Horner then commented that it might have been more believable had he locked .


So , if you look at it in that light , flat spotting his tire(s) , not a sign of being in control , was the way to get out of this .
That doesn't seem right , does it ?
No, it does seem right. First, I am unconvinced that he needed to go straight to keep from locking. Forcing people off course seems to be his new mode of operation. Second, and assuming he was in fact at the limit of braking, also goes on him for over driving the corner and being a hazard to other drivers. Hamilton is most definitely inside his head and if he doesn't get over it this season will be toast for him. He also doesn't need a growing reputation as a dirty driver. It will not serve him well going forward.

[henners88]

He did get around to it , a little too late , so , to say he didn't get to full lock isn't accurate at all .
Ant Davidson remarked that it's unlikely he could have braked any harder without locking .
And , that he would have slid farther had he locked up .

Horner then commented that it might have been more believable had he locked .


So , if you look at it in that light , flat spotting his tire(s) , not a sign of being in control , was the way to get out of this .
That doesn't seem right , does it ?

That particular corner requires full lock as pretty much a 270 degree angle. Of course he used full lock, eventually. I am not convinced from watching it back he could not turn earlier. He knew he had over cooked the approach and compromised his entry so chose to go long and in the process forced Verstappen to leave the track.

If gravel traps were brought back he would now have ended 2 drivers races. It's one thing closing a gap on exit but making a meal of the approach will just attract the stewards. He needs to study Hamilton's race craft, especially overtaking.

[driveace]

If Nico was not driving the best car on the track he would be shown to be a mediocre driver.He only looks good in the Mercedes as it's head and shoulders above the other cars. I was disappointed that Mercedes signed him again ,he is a dirty racer and reverts to forcing others off the track to hold or gain positions .I would love to see Vettel or Verstappen racing the Merc ,but then there would be very little opposition to the Mercs .I think Jos is very proud of his sons racing and Keke is disappointed at some of his sons antics

[AndyL]

That particular corner requires full lock as pretty much a 270 degree angle. Of course he used full lock, eventually. I am not convinced from watching it back he could not turn earlier. He knew he had over cooked the approach and compromised his entry so chose to go long and in the process forced Verstappen to leave the track.

Rosberg came from so far back and braked so late, it was surely inevitable that he was going to overshoot the corner by a large margin. Clearly he was never going to get anywhere near the normal apex. Especially after Max made that late defensive move to the right, forcing Rosberg to enter the corner on an even tighter line than he intendeded.

[henners88]

Rosberg came from so far back and braked so late, it was surely inevitable that he was going to overshoot the corner by a large margin. Clearly he was never going to get anywhere near the normal apex. Especially after Max made that late defensive move to the right, forcing Rosberg to enter the corner on an even tighter line than he intendeded.
That's what I meant by the expression 'over cooked'.

[Tazio]

It is just being revealed that Seb thought the penultimate lap was the last lap . He lost about 14 seconds but not a place!:confused:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCrO3WnEHbQ

[yodasarmpit]

It is just being revealed that Seb thought the penultimate lap was the last lap . He lost about 14 seconds but not a place!:confused:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCrO3WnEHbQReminds me of Mansell accidentally hitting the kill switch celebrating too early.

[Nitrodaze]

It is just being revealed that Seb thought the penultimate lap was the last lap . He lost about 14 seconds but not a place!:confused:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCrO3WnEHbQ

Wow, he seems abit distracted with the Ferrari kaforffle [new spelling :-)]

[N. Jones]

Wow, he seems abit distracted with the Ferrari kaforffle [new spelling :-)]

Interesting that he is doing so much complaining. I thought he was over such antics.

[Jag_Warrior]

It is just being revealed that Seb thought the penultimate lap was the last lap . He lost about 14 seconds but not a place!:confused:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCrO3WnEHbQ

I watched that a few days ago and couldn't help but chuckle.

IMO, not only is something not right at Ferrari, but something's not right in Seb's head.

[easy rider]

That's what I meant by the expression 'over cooked'.

It also can be described in another way as " Nicosteer "

Nicosteer as I read, " occurs when a car follows a wider than expected arc into a given corner as a result of the driver failing to turn the wheel enough, and then pretending that he had a problem even though he didn't."