Austria 2016

[Bagwan]

This could be another lottery as it's raining right now , so not much set-up time .
I can't imagine sliding around this place in the wet .

[Tazio]

Vettel getting 5 place grid drop for gearbox change.

[Bagwan]

I like the dynamic setting up for this race .

Hamilton was quoted as saying that the relationship is better than ever and they are getting along great .

Then , Rosberg was found saying it hasn't changed at all .

Now , Hamilton's out saying Nico just did better , and he'll have to up his game .
And , Nico then mentioned that Lewis didn't get his lap together so he'd be a big challenge tomorrow .

So , we've got them complimenting each other , now looking like best buddies .




Not gonna last .

[steveaki13]

I like the dynamic setting up for this race .

Hamilton was quoted as saying that the relationship is better than ever and they are getting along great .

Then , Rosberg was found saying it hasn't changed at all .

Now , Hamilton's out saying Nico just did better , and he'll have to up his game .
And , Nico then mentioned that Lewis didn't get his lap together so he'd be a big challenge tomorrow .

So , we've got them complimenting each other , now looking like best buddies .




Not gonna last .

Now wait for a turn one crash :p

[steveaki13]

Much as some people dont. I always like Austria. It used to always provide good close racing through the field. I guess cos of the short lap.

Rain will make it very interesting.

[Tazio]

50% Chance of rain for qualifying. That could put Fred on the front row! :p:

[steveaki13]

Suspension problems all round then. Perez the latest

[Tazio]

Make that Kyvat! :wave:

[gm99]

Wow, Wehrlein puts the Manor in P12!

[steveaki13]

Great to see Wehrlein in 12th. Its a one lap shoot out on a damp track with slicks

[steveaki13]

50% Chance of rain for qualifying. That could put Fred on the front row! :p:

No but Button will start 3rd

[Tazio]

Well done Jense!

[Bagwan]

Well done to Lewis , on the pole again . Perfectly timed tow from Riccardo .

Sausage curbs need work .
Maybe they could change the spacing so that going wide is still punished , but not quite so brutally .
It looks to me that they are able to handle the suspension movement , but , at that kind of speed , are landing right before the next one , which launches the tire with the compression created within .

Ride over six or seven of them and the momentum of the extreme wag up and down pushes the suspension parts well beyond designed strength .

Move them apart another foot or two and the compression and subsequent harmonics should disappear , I think . Removing every second one would likely work as well .

Move them closer together and you'd get roughly the same effect , as they'd ride over without touching down in between .


They do need to have something there , but it needs to punish , not wreck cars .

[driveace]

Well done Lewis and 5 place penalty for Vettel and Rosberg .Make it pay tomorrow and close the gap.Well done Button ,you have put Alonso,s effort look weak

[Jag_Warrior]

I like the dynamic setting up for this race .

Hamilton was quoted as saying that the relationship is better than ever and they are getting along great .

Then , Rosberg was found saying it hasn't changed at all .

Now , Hamilton's out saying Nico just did better , and he'll have to up his game .
And , Nico then mentioned that Lewis didn't get his lap together so he'd be a big challenge tomorrow .

So , we've got them complimenting each other , now looking like best buddies .




Not gonna last .

Kind of reminds me of bickering kids who've been told by their parents to shake hands and make up. And, grudgingly, they both do. Then they try to out "nice" each other... in the most fake way possible. I don't believe either one of them. :D

[Bagwan]

Well done Lewis and 5 place penalty for Vettel and Rosberg .Make it pay tomorrow and close the gap.Well done Button ,you have put Alonso,s effort look weak

Whilst Button did do well , his team mate Fred was given the wrong tires , so he was made to look a little better than he might have .

[Bagwan]

Kind of reminds me of bickering kids who've been told by their parents to shake hands and make up. And, grudgingly, they both do. Then they try to out "nice" each other... in the most fake way possible. I don't believe either one of them. :D

To be fair , Rosberg said the dynamic hadn't really changed at all , refuting Lewis's stance that they were all "nicey-nicey" .

Nico also , apparently , called him out on saying he was wary of the Baku pit entrance , almost crapping himself as someone crossed his bow going in at the end of a stint , when he was belittling the safety concerns of other drivers in the press .
Max , then was asked , and called him out on it as well .

So , yeah , no happy pals relationship there , to be sure .

[zako85]

Just great. Rain is the only thing that will prevent Lewis to run away with the victory today.

By the way, here is a great test for Niko Hulkenberg. Will this lad ever step onto the (F1) podium or is he cursed?

[steveaki13]

It was raining this morning for the GP3 race. Anyone got a got source of weather for Austria?

[Mia 01]

Unlike Nico R, I don´t Think Nico H will yield in the first or second corner.
An interesting race ahed of us.

[COD]

No rain forecasted http://www.myweather2.com/Motor-Racing/Austria/A1-Ring-Circuit.aspx

Ferrari could surprise, since they are starting on harder tyres..,

[zako85]

Unlike Nico R, I don´t Think Nico H will yield in the first or second corner.
An interesting race ahed of us.

Ok, then Niko H will have to yield in the other corner, or in the first DRS zone. Hardly an interesting race when you can say with 90% certainty who will win it.

[zako85]

So far Hamilton surprised everybody in the previous races by winning in races where he made one less stop than anyone else. I suspect his crew knew a lot more about the tires that the rest.

[steveaki13]

Morning guys, girls and dawgs..... :)

[steveaki13]

Wehrlein reversing on the grid :eek:

Button second

[steveaki13]

Hamilton not exactly screaming away from Button

[gm99]

Hülkenberg going backwards...

[steveaki13]

and he still goes backwards.... 2nd to 8th.

Raikkonen passes Button and now is in this for the win.

[steveaki13]

Button going backwards too.

Hamilton, Raikkonen & Rosberg.... race is on.

[steveaki13]

talking to myself but its spitting with rain. Just very lightly

[Koz]

Where is everyone??

[Koz]

Where's the rain?

[Koz]

OMG! Tyre failure?

[steveaki13]

I am here :laugh: :wave: however it is so quiet.

Rosberg leading Hamilton now and Ferrari seeming to wait way too long.


edit: Vettel tyre failure

[steveaki13]

SC out. This may have screwed Hamilton v Rosberg because they might all pit again.... wow

[Koz]

They didn't pit?

Will spice things up.

[truefan72]

it was a dumb ass pit strategy ftom mercedes that allowed rosberg to take the lead from hamilton, he clearly should have pitted at least 1 lap prior, and to add...typical slow pitstop again for hamilton. Frustrating. oh well

[truefan72]

how is wherlein down to p20?

[steveaki13]

how is wherlein down to p20?

Not sure....

[AndyL]

how is wherlein down to p20?

That was mystifying me too.

[steveaki13]

Rosberg looking good for this surprise win if he can get to the end..... drama

[steveaki13]

Hamilton will not be a happy bunny right now. :\\ :p

Where is Baggy, Taz and co today.

[truefan72]

so another slow pit stop for hamilton....pathetic

[steveaki13]

Wow 2 stops and Hamilton has been shafted by his strategy.... interesting stuff

Hamilton will punch someone after this race :D

[Koz]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaa, why is he on softer tyres than me?

[N4D13]

For all their ability of building a fast car, it's surprising that Mercedes can't get their drivers to switch positions correctly.

[steveaki13]

Wow 2 stops and Hamilton has been shafted by his strategy.... interesting stuff

Hamilton will punch someone after this race :D

and on a slower tyre :\\

Super softs should easily go to the end..... weird decisions for hammy today...... team favouring Nico? ;)

[truefan72]

and then mercedes decides not to give him ultra softs. because....stupidity

[steveaki13]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaa, why is he on softer tyres than me?

:laugh:

[steveaki13]

Its very entertaining and funny, but with slow stops and not insisting Hamilton pitted earlier has really screwed him over today. Good fun though

[gm99]

The lap times are much higher than I expected. I would have thought they'd be lapping in the low 1.08s. Maybe that's because of the low temperatures?

[Nitrodaze]

It is looking like a staged win at the mo, boo Mercedes.

[steveaki13]

Hulkenberg starts 2nd running 17th +1 Lap..... what a pathetic effort all round.

[Nitrodaze]

Hulkenberg starts 2nd running 17th +1 Lap..... what a pathetic effort all round.
Not a good day for the Hulk

[N4D13]

It is looking like a staged win at the mo, boo Mercedes.
Even if strategy and pitstops haven't favored Lewis today, I don't think it's the team's fault that Lewis screwed up his out lap. Besides, if they wanted to stage Rosberg's win, why would they have pitted Lewis before?

[steveaki13]

Wehrlein 11th now and catching Bottas for 10th. wow

Button has driven a lot better than Hulk in similar situations

[gm99]

Wehrlein in P11 - it would be fantastic for him to get a point!

[Koz]

I think Hamilton's got this in the bag.

[longisland]

This is interesting. Ham in DRS zone with 2 laps to go

[AndyL]

It is looking like a staged win at the mo, boo Mercedes.

If Mercedes were staging anything, it was a Hamilton win. They broke their usual rule of pitting the leading driver first, to give him the opportunity to undercut Rosberg. Bad luck with the slowish stop plus Hamilton's mistake on the out lap meant it didn't come off.

[AndyL]

Oh dear. This one's going to end up in the stewards' room isn't it.

[henners88]

Hamilton supreme!! What a finish!!

[Koz]

WTF was that. Rosberg fucked Hamilton. What a load of shit.

[N4D13]

Could Lewis' overtake or the crash between Nico and him have taken place under yellow flags? It looked like the Force India was a few corners after that corner, but I'm not sure.

[steveaki13]

That last lap wow.

Hamilton passes Rosberg, Rosberg hits Hamilton, Rosberg then loses front wing, Hamilton then passes Rosberg under yellows of Perez crash, Rosberg then passed by Verstappen & Raikkonen, Werhelin scores a point & If Hamilton gets in trouble for passing under yellows then Verstappen wins

who knows, but it was crazy fantastic action.

[steveaki13]

what a finish

[steveaki13]

About 3 cars, Lewis & two backmarkers passed an ailing Rosberg into a corner with yellows. How will that end?

[henners88]

Rosberg will be in the bosses office after that one lol.

[N4D13]

About 3 cars, Lewis & two backmarkers passed an ailing Rosberg into a corner with yellows. How will that end?
I'm not convinced that the corner where Lewis and Nico touched was under yellows, are you sure about that? If that's the case, Lewis is almost certainly getting a penalty. Verstappen and Räikkönen shouldn't be getting one, though, because Nico had an obvious problem, so it was legitimate for them to pass him.

[Koz]

About 3 cars, Lewis & two backmarkers passed an ailing Rosberg into a corner with yellows. How will that end?

They can pass if someone has a problem, can't they?
They didn't really have a choice.

[Garry Walker]

Where is our resident imbecile DJ telling us Hamilton is to blame for this collision?

[henners88]

Where is our resident imbecile DJ telling us Hamilton is to blame for this collision?
I'm sure Bagwan and DJ will see something absolutely nobody else has lol. Expect the discussion :p

[steveaki13]

I'm not convinced that the corner where Lewis and Nico touched was under yellows, are you sure about that?

No that was fine, but after they touched Rosberg took the lead again as Hamilton went wide. Then along that straight approaching yellow flags he passed a wingless Rosberg.

Hope that makes sense.

[steveaki13]

Where is our resident imbecile DJ telling us Hamilton is to blame for this collision?

He is trying to figure out how Vettel was the best driver in history today too. That takes time:p

[rjbetty]

Hey guys, just woke up and caught the finish on the bbc site.

FLIPPIN 'ECK what 'appened there then?

Rosberg and Hamilton collide? Is Bagwan going to start a thread blaming Hamilton or shall I open it first? Lol

And Wehrlein is 10th?!!

This comment was also on the bbc site.

"Adeel Ejaz: Absolute disgrace by Mercedes both pits for Lewis Hamilton messed up and nailed both for Rosberg!"

[N4D13]

No that was fine, but after they touched Rosberg took the lead again as Hamilton went wide. Then along that straight approaching yellow flags he passed a wingless Rosberg.

Hope that makes sense.
Fair enough then. :)

[steveaki13]

They can pass if someone has a problem, can't they?
They didn't really have a choice.

I personally think they should be able to, but I have no idea what the rules state? If thats the case then it is all fine.

[steveaki13]

Hey guys, just woke up and caught the finish on the bbc site.

FLIPPIN 'ECK what 'appened there then?

Rosberg and Hamilton collide? Is Bagwan going to start a thread blaming Hamilton or shall I open it first? Lol

And Wehrlein is 10th?!!

This comment was also on the bbc site.

"Adeel Ejaz: Absolute disgrace by Mercedes both pits for Lewis Hamilton messed up and nailed both for Rosberg!"

Great to see Manor score a point. Is that the first Manor point since Marussia left?

[henners88]

They obviously like processional racing in Austria judging by the boo's lol.

[Garry Walker]

I'm sure Bagwan and DJ will see something absolutely nobody else has lol. Expect the discussion :p
That's what being a drunk sometimes brings about, sadly.


He is trying to figure out how Vettel was the best driver in history today too. That takes time:p

Einstein couldn't think of reasons to argue for such a case, let alone a dimwit like DJ

[Koz]

They obviously like processional racing in Austria judging by the boo's lol.

Very sad and disappointing reaction by the fans.

[truefan72]

first of all, All credit to Wherlein. P10 is a magnificent result
Then a big bow to Button in p6. that is about as good as the mclaren could take in this race. Encouraging
Congrats to kimi too

Now as to the main event
I firmly believe Rosberg tried to take both cars out and wlak away the winner of this calamity maintaining his points lead.
Even if he maintained his line, Hamilton would have had a good run on him on that back straight. so he pulled a MSC and tried to crash both out.
This is further supported by the stewards now investigating Rosberg
The boos for Hamilton are understandable by the big german contingent there. but they would see the replays and understand who was to blame.
It was an inspired last few laps to close the gap to rosberg on 1 lap older softs vs Rosberg's supersofts
and this after Mercedes hung him out to dry on his first stint, effectively giving rosberg the race lead
then they give him a slow pit stop,
then they pit him again and give him yellow softs instead of his set of ultra's
then rosberg tries to take him out, he survives and wins the race
despite the boos, this was an epic effort for Hamilton

[Garry Walker]

Oh and points for Wehrlein. Just noticed that. Awesome.

[truefan72]

i love how Toto and Lauda seem more upset about the collision and pretending like they don't understand how "both" drivers hit each other. lol
To Lauda's credit, he thinks Nico is at fault
The interview of toto with kravitz is revealing.
drama

Ted had it spot on and Toto was like "you got it wrong" lol
It would be apropo as the team were not wathcing the same race as the rest of us. SMH

[steveaki13]

The crowd booing, but actually Rosberg was at fault today.

Lauda saying Nico had a brake problem. However maybe it was one that they couldnt tell him about over the radio. How nuts is that.

That said Rosberg must have been desperate to hold his points so with the history of Hamilton initiating some contact maybe he tried to do the same.

Weird that whatever happens when they touch that Hamilton wins out more often than not. He seems just slightly more instinctive in these moments and maybe why he is still slightly ahead in terms of whole package. I dont know. Just seems that way.

[truefan72]

Oh and points for Wehrlein. Just noticed that. Awesome.

indeed

[Stan Reid]

Great to see Manor score a point. Is that the first Manor point since Marussia left?

Has that team scored a point under any name? When? Glad to see it anyway.

[gm99]

Has that team scored a point under any name? When? Glad to see it anyway.

Bianchi at Monaco 2014.

[truefan72]

so sky is trying to say that bono made the right call to put softs and not ultras on Hamilton because rosberg's tires had graining and looked the worse shape at the end.
But that to me is still wrong. Hamilton did a long stint on 3 lap old ultras on heavier fuel at the beginning of the race and would have clearly benefited from a new set with a lighter load and only about 12-15 laps to go.

[Nitrodaze]

Even if strategy and pitstops haven't favored Lewis today, I don't think it's the team's fault that Lewis screwed up his out lap. Besides, if they wanted to stage Rosberg's win, why would they have pitted Lewis before?

C'mon buddy, typically Mercedes gives priority of pitting to the driver ahead. First time round they stopped Rosberg who was in 2nd first, but crucially kept Hamilton out long enough for Nico to end up in front of him.
You talk about Hamilton screwing up his out lap, but have you wondered why they stopped Hamilton first in the 2nd stint with at least 10 laps of tyre more than Rosberg, but crucially giving him only one lap space before stopping Rosberg.

Whichever way you look at it, there is much there that makes you wonder.

[Stan Reid]

The race wasn't ota so I spent my time reading up on the world's feral pig problem.

[steveaki13]

Has that team scored a point under any name? When? Glad to see it anyway.

Bianchi scored two in Monaco in 2014

[truefan72]

toto is losing his ever loving mind
team orders are not the solution.

Cars collide for a reason and team orders won't stop that
in barcelona, rosberg effectively turned into hamilton sending him off track
in Austira he crashes into him in both incidents causing a collision

And what toto is talking about is nonsensical.
They just won the race and one of their drivers has some sort of issue in causing collisions with his teammate
if anythnig and internal reprimand is warranted.

But to be honest i would like to see them both left alone to drive as they see fit and if a collision in the heat of battle occurs so be it.
Mercedes are so far ahead in the WCC that it is effectively a done deal, but the way toto talks about it it is as if the 1-2 finish is the most important thing
so the focus should b on providing both cars with a fair and decent set up and independent race strategy and allow these boys to fight

I have no desire to see manufactured 1-2's when it is not needed at this point. Let them fight it out and if both crash then so be it.
At least we will have an honest championship and by default they already win the Constructors championship/

[Mintexmemory]

.......add to that, ensure the pit crew are selected and paid by the driver. You can't convince me that the first Hamilton stop was just a crew error. They deliberately went for a slower change!

[truefan72]

for all of what folks say
kimi and vettel are tied in points

I also don't understand Vettel blaming Pirelli
I think Nasr did 45 laps on those tires. Vestappen did 60 on his

Ferrari need to check their pressures and setup and perhaps vettel took too much out of the tire, and maybe a few flat spots.
But of course it can't be his fault.
to vettel's credit he usually comes out later once cooled down and accept blame

[Stan Reid]

I guess that officially makes Sauber the worst team in F1.

[Starter]

That's what being a drunk sometimes brings about, sadly.



Einstein couldn't think of reasons to argue for such a case, let alone a dimwit like DJ
Be glad I'm no longer a Moderator here.

[Tazio]

Where is everyone??
I missed the live race, and I'm getting ready to watch the replay!

[Bagwan]

“Nevertheless I was confident I could defend and bring it home, and I had the inside position, strong position, and I went a bit deep into the corner, but that’s fine, you know, I dictate, I’m on the inside.

“Then I was just very surprised that Lewis turned in, that caused a collision.”

So , that's what Nico said about the incident .



This is significant because of his reasoning .
He stated that he dictates his position on track because he was inside .

We have heard Lewis state this position multiple times in the past and I suspect that this is , or was , an accepted position for either driver , at least within the team , itself .
Given that this was only recently demonstrated to have been the position of the stewards when Nico was forced out when outside of a first corner , dropping him down to ninth from 2nd on the grid , which wasn't investigated by the stewards to my knowledge , I guess we should assume this is the case .

I don't agree with forcing another driver off track .

His brakes were sketchy , maybe worse than he knew , but in the heat of the moment , it's hard to blame him too much from there , with Lewis coming in hot to the left , any driver would be tempted to stay of the whoa pedal .
But the other side of that is that he knew they were rough , so maybe should have accepted his car was crippled , and taken a respectable second . There's an easy argument there , but , for sure , he would have been pilloried if he didn't put up a fight .


So , not that I agree with the tactic , but if holding a guy outside is acceptable , then the lack of turn in for Rosberg that has been pointed at as the main point of guilt , is an acceptable tactic .
Understeer was the reasoning given in the first corner that I mentioned earlier , that had Nico off , apparently acceptably .

This time , no brakes certainly inducing rather severe understeer were rather obvious , then restated multiple times by his team .
They also stated that they were not able to tell him just how bad they were , so , a bit shocking for the driver , given it was stated that the brake-by-wire went out only on the straight before .


Looking also at how late Nico waits to turn , we see it only after Lewis does so .
In effect , Nico is right that Lewis turned into him .

Lewis said he had Nico in his blind spot , so couldn't see him when he turned in .
I guess that's ok , but he had to have known he was there , and he must have been expecting to have Nico leave space for him on the outside .
So , that's fair , but inconsistent with his feelings in many cases in earlier races .




To get to the heart of it , no , I don't like what Nico did .
It doesn't seem consistent with the rules about leaving room .
It will be interesting what the stewards say about it .


On another topic , Nico was criticized for not letting Lewis back on track .
But the rules state the driver re-entering must do so safely , so in reality , almost a foul on Lewis .

On another , Nico's driving with a broken front end , he stayed out of the way of drivers who were clearly faster , and would not have been able to see most of the damage , only feel it from within the cockpit . Given he made it around without affecting the results too much with strewn CF , especially with the yellows , should let him off , but , who knows ? Maybe they need to give him a reprimand to even it up a little .
It wouldn't surprise me .


I hope I didn't disappoint anyone here with my assessments .

[tfp]

What a race!!!
I'm glad Hamilton got the win after Mercedes messed up the timing of the pit stops (surely that was a mistake?)

[Bagwan]

I'm sure Bagwan and DJ will see something absolutely nobody else has lol. Expect the discussion :p

How be we wait until we read what I have to say , henners ?

This is a discussion board . Expect discussion .

[henners88]

I hope I didn't disappoint anyone here with my assessments .
No you didn't Bagwan, just as expected. Your reputation is intact.

[henners88]

How be we wait until we read what I have to say , henners ?

This is a discussion board . Expect discussion .
You've proven me completely correct in my previous assumption.

If these drivers had been the other way around, we would have seen you explain Lewis barging Nico off in a fit of red mist.

You don't disappoint.

[Bagwan]

No you didn't Bagwan, just as expected. Your reputation is intact.

As is yours , henners .

I think Nico was wrong to force Lewis off track .
Do you think differently ?

[steveaki13]

Nico Rosberg has been given a 10 second penalty. Leaving him 4th. now +26 instead of +16 seconds behind Hamilton and 2 penalty points on his license. If he gets 12 he faces a race ban.

So no real penalty at all. hmm...........................

[Bagwan]

Nico was given 10 seconds and 2 points on his licence .

Good ruling .
I hope this is the way it is from now on .

[henners88]

As is yours , henners .

I think Nico was wrong to force Lewis off track .
Do you think differently ?
Nope, I think Nico was 100% at fault with absolutely no apportion of the blame going to Lewis in this incident. Lewis kept wide and out of trouble with Nico still making contact with 3/4 of the track at his disposal.

The championship gap has closed and hopefully Hamilton can carry the momentum into the British GP.

[Zico]

It's only a good ruling if you are a Nico fan or hate Hamilton.


If it doesn't affect his race/championship position It's a non penalty, and oks that kind of kamikaze driving. Ah well, if that's the way it is... I hope they remain consistent in the future at very least.

[Big Ben]

You don't disappoint.

Like you do... :rolleyes:

[Big Ben]

I blame DRS. Hamilton shouldn't have been up Rosberg's a$$ that easily in the first place... but that aside, that mercedes car is truly one of the best of all times (relative to its rivals of course). To think that they dominated in such a fashion for 3 years already with those 2 morons in the car is unbelievable.

The incident made me nostalgic. I went to youtube and searched for this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjBGZDFYEqA

There is been a lot of drama in that last lap. As much as it was in Dumb and Dumber

[The Black Knight]

“Nevertheless I was confident I could defend and bring it home, and I had the inside position, strong position, and I went a bit deep into the corner, but that’s fine, you know, I dictate, I’m on the inside.

“Then I was just very surprised that Lewis turned in, that caused a collision.”

So , that's what Nico said about the incident .



This is significant because of his reasoning .
He stated that he dictates his position on track because he was inside .

We have heard Lewis state this position multiple times in the past and I suspect that this is , or was , an accepted position for either driver , at least within the team , itself .
Given that this was only recently demonstrated to have been the position of the stewards when Nico was forced out when outside of a first corner , dropping him down to ninth from 2nd on the grid , which wasn't investigated by the stewards to my knowledge , I guess we should assume this is the case .

I don't agree with forcing another driver off track .

His brakes were sketchy , maybe worse than he knew , but in the heat of the moment , it's hard to blame him too much from there , with Lewis coming in hot to the left , any driver would be tempted to stay of the whoa pedal .
But the other side of that is that he knew they were rough , so maybe should have accepted his car was crippled , and taken a respectable second . There's an easy argument there , but , for sure , he would have been pilloried if he didn't put up a fight .


So , not that I agree with the tactic , but if holding a guy outside is acceptable , then the lack of turn in for Rosberg that has been pointed at as the main point of guilt , is an acceptable tactic .
Understeer was the reasoning given in the first corner that I mentioned earlier , that had Nico off , apparently acceptably .

This time , no brakes certainly inducing rather severe understeer were rather obvious , then restated multiple times by his team .
They also stated that they were not able to tell him just how bad they were , so , a bit shocking for the driver , given it was stated that the brake-by-wire went out only on the straight before .


Looking also at how late Nico waits to turn , we see it only after Lewis does so .
In effect , Nico is right that Lewis turned into him .

Lewis said he had Nico in his blind spot , so couldn't see him when he turned in .
I guess that's ok , but he had to have known he was there , and he must have been expecting to have Nico leave space for him on the outside .
So , that's fair , but inconsistent with his feelings in many cases in earlier races .




To get to the heart of it , no , I don't like what Nico did .
It doesn't seem consistent with the rules about leaving room .
It will be interesting what the stewards say about it .


On another topic , Nico was criticized for not letting Lewis back on track .
But the rules state the driver re-entering must do so safely , so in reality , almost a foul on Lewis .

On another , Nico's driving with a broken front end , he stayed out of the way of drivers who were clearly faster , and would not have been able to see most of the damage , only feel it from within the cockpit . Given he made it around without affecting the results too much with strewn CF , especially with the yellows , should let him off , but , who knows ? Maybe they need to give him a reprimand to even it up a little .
It wouldn't surprise me .


I hope I didn't disappoint anyone here with my assessments .

I was waiting your reasoning. I knew it'd be bananas and you'd attempt to exonerate Rosberg in some way somehow. But it was good to see that even you couldn't find a way to blame Hamilton despite clearly trying very desperately to do so.

At the end of the day it boils down to this: Lewis left bags and bags of room, he had to turn in at some point and left it as late as he could. It was amateur from Rosberg and 100%, once again, his fault as it was in Spain, Belgium and Monaco.

Nico is an amazing driver, one of the quickest ever in the sport, in my opinion. It's a shame he resorts to these antics as that will ultimately what he will be remembered for opposed to the amazing talent he displays week in week out on track. It is his biggest weakness. And there is no need for it either as has it within him to beat Hamilton over the course of a weekend and then he goes along and does something like this. A real pity he does these kind of thing continuously.

[henners88]

Like you do... :rolleyes:
At least when Hamilton does mess up I am happy to stick the boot in. I don't always have to be predicable one way or the other. Thanks for your input here though. I probably respect your posts as much as you respect mine.

[driveace]

Rosbergs driving can be brilliant,his starts,his pace if he is in the lead,but the red mist comes out far too often in many races,and is reminiscent of MSc .
He needs to realize that Hamilton wins races with race craft ,even though today he had very slow pit stops,inferior tyres,and what looked like the Mercedes Mafia on his back ,and Rosberg again crashing into him .The "boos" were disgraceful from the crowd today ! Let's start being fair with both drivers Mercedes or Lewis could be departing to a team that appreciates his efforts

[steveaki13]

Stop bitching at each other for pity sake.

I like to think of myself as being relatively neutral. I like Hamilton and think he has amazing talent but often screws up and thats why he wont ever be among the absolute greatest in my eyes. (Not yet anyway)

However this time I fail to see how anyone can blame Hamilton. Unless he was just going to drive off track he had no where to go. He stayed wide and was aiming to sneak around the outside of the white line, leaving Rosberg 3/4 of the track.

Even if Nico had brake issues, that does not stop him turning for the corner early and trying to avoid Lewis. He did nothing of the sort and IMO tried to push Lewis off.

I feel it warranted at least a grid drop or points deduction from the race.

If others disagree then I am amazed but accept it. Just stop all the moaning about each other.

[steveaki13]

Twice we have seen booing from the fans in Austria. They did it in 2002 when Barrichello let Schumacher pass.

[Zico]

Rosberg- "I'm on the inside, I have the right to defend. I don't need to take the ideal line."

You do if you are behind Lewis at that point son.

[henners88]

Rosbergs driving can be brilliant,his starts,his pace if he is in the lead,but the red mist comes out far too often in many races,and is reminiscent of MSc .
He needs to realize that Hamilton wins races with race craft ,even though today he had very slow pit stops,inferior tyres,and what looked like the Mercedes Mafia on his back ,and Rosberg again crashing into him .The "boos" were disgraceful from the crowd today ! Let's start being fair with both drivers Mercedes or Lewis could be departing to a team that appreciates his efforts
I think to be fair to the crowd, the commentary at the track suggested Hamilton had crashed into Rosberg rather than the other way around. I doubt many of the fans trackside had seen the hash Nico made in that corner. The verdict post race is pretty unanimous despite Nico still not accepting fault.

[henners88]

Stop bitching at each other for pity sake.

I like to think of myself as being relatively neutral. I like Hamilton and think he has amazing talent but often screws up and thats why he wont ever be among the absolute greatest in my eyes. (Not yet anyway)

However this time I fail to see how anyone can blame Hamilton. Unless he was just going to drive off track he had no where to go. He stayed wide and was aiming to sneak around the outside of the white line, leaving Rosberg 3/4 of the track.

Even if Nico had brake issues, that does not stop him turning for the corner early and trying to avoid Lewis. He did nothing of the sort and IMO tried to push Lewis off.

I feel it warranted at least a grid drop or points deduction from the race.

If others disagree then I am amazed but accept it. Just stop all the moaning about each other.

I think you need to calm down Steve, chill. :p

[steveaki13]

I think you need to calm down Steve, chill. :p

no bloody way..........................

[henners88]

You need to stop bitching at me Steve lol.

[steveaki13]

You need to stop bitching at me Steve lol.

but but....but Henners

[Big Ben]

At least when Hamilton does mess up I am happy to stick the boot in. I don't always have to be predicable one way or the other. Thanks for your input here though. I probably respect your posts as much as you respect mine.
Thanks. Your Idol will appreciate it :rolleyes: .

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[Zico]

However this time I fail to see how anyone can blame Hamilton. Unless he was just going to drive off track he had no where to go. He stayed wide and was aiming to sneak around the outside of the white line, leaving Rosberg 3/4 of the track.

Yep, Nico has his own set of rules,

He said and I quote- "I'm on the inside, I have the right to defend. I don't need to take the ideal line.

Someone aught to remind him that he is no longer defending when he isn't ahead.

His actions and attitude today also reinforce my belief that his Monaco escapades last year were also 100% deliberate.

Senna-esque minus the talent..


But hey... isn't it great that Karma prevailed and bit his derriere!

[henners88]

Thanks. Your Idol will appreciate it :rolleyes: .

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
That makes sense? lol

[henners88]

Yep, Nico has his own set of rules,

He said and I quote- "I'm on the inside, I have the right to defend. I don't need to take the ideal line.

Someone aught to remind him that he is no longer defending when he isn't ahead.

His actions and attitude today also reinforce my belief that his Monaco escapades last year were also 100% deliberate.

Senna-esque minus the talent..


But hey... isn't it great that Karma prevailed and bit his derriere!

I also don't think it's acceptable to veer 12 feet off the racing line and push a guy off that is alongside. There's defence and there's being a bad sport. I think Nico fell into the latter today and he doesn't need to tarnish his career with such behaviour.

[Big Ben]

That makes sense? lol
Lol

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[henners88]

Lol

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
I'll put it down to maybe a loss in translation. :)

[Rollo]

I also don't think it's acceptable to veer 12 feet off the racing line and push a guy off that is alongside. There's defence and there's being a bad sport. I think Nico fell into the latter today and he doesn't need to tarnish his career with such behaviour.

+1 this. Hear hear!

I think that DQ would have been appropriate in this instance, or at very least a five minute time penalty.

[Tazio]

Stop bitching at each other for pity sake.

I like to think of myself as being relatively neutral. I like Hamilton and think he has amazing talent but often screws up and thats why he wont ever be among the absolute greatest in my eyes. (Not yet anyway)

However this time I fail to see how anyone can blame Hamilton. Unless he was just going to drive off track he had no where to go. He stayed wide and was aiming to sneak around the outside of the white line, leaving Rosberg 3/4 of the track.

Even if Nico had brake issues, that does not stop him turning for the corner early and trying to avoid Lewis. He did nothing of the sort and IMO tried to push Lewis off.

I feel it warranted at least a grid drop or points deduction from the race.

If others disagree then I am amazed but accept it. Just stop all the moaning about each other.
Well stated mate.
BTW Lewis was actually ahead of Nico before the latter turned in ! The penalty was definately not severe enough!
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=c98819-1467555919.png

[driveace]

Disgraceful driving from Rosberg .We now again see his true colours.When trying to defend he is dangerous using his car as a weapon .Very happy that this time he was damaged ,and maybe needs Toto to go through the footage and realize how his actions could have lost Mercedes ALL the points for Sundays race.How many times does he revert to dirty tricks ,as we can all remember the stunts he has tried to pull and again gets let off lightly .In my mind the stewards are afraid of the drivers or the "Big" teams and need to stand by their convictions with penalties they hand out 10 seconds on his race time was a farce

[zako85]

Finally a fantastic race that doesn't make people fall asleep. Oh how I was wrong expecting a boring race before Sunday. Keep more of those juicy F1 "scandals" coming! :-)

Hamilton's driving was a fine class act.

[Nitrodaze]

“Nevertheless I was confident I could defend and bring it home, and I had the inside position, strong position, and I went a bit deep into the corner, but that’s fine, you know, I dictate, I’m on the inside.

“Then I was just very surprised that Lewis turned in, that caused a collision.”

So , that's what Nico said about the incident .



This is significant because of his reasoning .
He stated that he dictates his position on track because he was inside .

We have heard Lewis state this position multiple times in the past and I suspect that this is , or was , an accepted position for either driver , at least within the team , itself .


I spent some time rewinding and watching the incident again and again after Rosberg's interview. And l don't understand how he felt comfortable standing in front of the press and effectively the world making such a claim. But let us analyse it.

1. Hamilton was ahead approaching the corner on the racing line by half a car length. Nico was trying to counter attack on the inside and had the opportunity to take the apex of the corner and come out of it in front.

2. Hamilton was still ahead by half a car's length on the apex of the corner but on the outside which was still the racing line for this particular corner.
3. A driver genuinely fighting to take the lead would at this point attempt to take the shorter line cutting the apex to come out of the corner with a better position on the other side of the apex, giving that Hamilton would take the wider racing line through the corner.
4. But Rosberg who was all the while not on the racing line at any point during this maneuver and at a disadvantage of being half a car's length behind, decides he wants to dictate position on the apex of the corner. Kind of like Kimi on Bottas if you remember that one. That was always going to result in a mindless collision.

I think you have to be ahead at the corner and have command of the racing line going into the corner to have the right to cease the racing line at the apex of the corner. In Rosberg's case, he was not ahead going into the corner. He was not on the racing line approaching the corner. He had clearly lost the initiative even at the apex and this was clear from the nature of the crash that the front of his car collided with the mid section of Hamilton's car. The ugly thing about it all was that he did it with ample track space to make the corner, he did it with a counter attack line available to him to fight for position coming out of the corner without needing to crash into Hamilton. The choice to try to cease the racing line from a losing position was just desperate and pointless because it was going to cost more points than was necessary.

[The Black Knight]

I spent some time rewinding and watching the incident again and again after Rosberg's interview. And l don't understand how he felt comfortable standing in front of the press and effective the world making such a claim. But let us analyse it.

1. Hamilton was ahead approaching the corner on the racing line by half a car length. Nico was trying to counter attack on the inside and had the opportunity to take the apx of the corner and come out of it in front.

2. Hamilton was still ahead by half a car's length on the apex of the corner but on the outside which was still the racing line for this particular corner.
3. A driver genuinely fighting to take the lead would at this point attempt to take the short line cutting the apex to come out of the corner with a better position on the other side of the apex, giving that Hamilton would take the wider racing line through the corner.
4. But Rosberg who was all the while not on the racing line at any point during this maneuver and at a disadvantage of being half a car's length behind, decides he wants to dictate position on the apex of the corner. Kind of like Kimi on Bottas if you remember that one. That was always going to result in a mindless collision.

I think you have to be ahead at the corner and have command of the racing line going into the corner to have the right to cease the racing line at the apex of the corner. In Rosberg's case, he was not ahead going into the corner. He was not on the racing line approaching the corner. He had clearly lost the initiative even at the apex and this was clear from the nature of the crash that the front of his car collided with the mid section of Hamilton's car. The ugly thing about it all was that he did it with ample track space to make the corner, he did it with a counter attack line available to him to fight for position coming out of the corner without needing to crash into Hamilton. The choice to try to cease the racing line from a losing position was just desperate and pointless because it was going to cost more points than was necessary.

This is the big point for me. I was thinking about this afterwards and wondering what his reasoning was for what he did. He could have turned into the apex, retaken the lead and won the race without any damage to either car at this point. So why did he do it? Well the answer, I think, lies in what Toto said; he had brake by wire failure. He knew the only way he could keep the race victory was to eliminate the threat (Hamilton) and that is what he tried to do. Had he turned in, he wouldn't have had enough braking to keep Hamilton behind him coming into turn three. In the end it was heat of moment stuff but he deserved to lose out.

What really bothers me is how every time this happens Nico keeps getting little slaps on the wrist opposed to real tangible punishment. It reminds me of soccer and the way players continually pull and push each other in the box nowadays for corner and free kicks. Had UEFA stamped this out from the beginning and given a few lads red cards, it would have stopped straight away. Instead, it has crept into the game and spread worldwide and now everyone does it. It's much the same with Rosberg. He has gotten away with things like Monaco, Belgium, Spain and now he has gotten away with Austria. The most alarming thing for me is that it's two races out of the last 5 races, so clearly he's escalating now in the knowledge he can keep pushing the limits and he won't get punished. It's bad for sport, it does nothing for Rosberg's reputation and most of all, it's bad for F1. Time to stop it and the only way to do that is a race ban or disqualification.

[AndyL]

This reminds me a lot of the Rossi/Marquez incident at Sepang last year. Rossi was on the inside, ran Marquez way out wide, eventually Marquez turned in anyway, and they touched sending Marquez off the track.

The outcome was similar too, with the stewards finding Rossi at fault, but the punishment was heavier: 3 penalty points which, added to the 1 penalty point he already had, sent Rossi to the back of the grid for the next race.

[Nitrodaze]

The Spain crash between Rosberg and Hamilton could have easily been fatal to one or both drivers. In the early Mosley era, that crash could have easily been fatal. The crash that killed Senna, seem innocuous as he crashed in to the tyre wall, but turned out to be fatal.

Recurrence of a crash between the same two drivers should have at least given an opportunity to the stewards to stamp it out with a harsh punishment. An ineffective 10 points punishment and 2 points on the license, sends a very weak message. But more importantly, shows an inconsistency when compared to the Kimi on Bottas incident last year.

Besides, there is a higher possibility for this recurring trend between Rosberg and Hamilton to result in an injury or a fatal situation if it is not nipped in the bud at this stage. The stewards have failed to recognize this point, l hope the Mercedes team at least recognize this possibility and act accordingly. That said, team orders is not the answer. These are the finest drivers in the world. They should behave and drive responsibly. If an external input is required to compel them to be responsible, then the team have the wrong people or person in their cars.

Rosberg clearly disagrees with the stewards opinion, hence it could be said that the stewards have failed to make their thoughts on this kind of behavior clearly made. A repeat of the scenario looks most likely to re-occur. I just hope that when it does, that nobody gets hurt or killed in the process.

[Starter]

Rosberg clearly disagrees with the stewards opinion, hence it could be said that the stewards have failed to make their thoughts on this kind of behavior clearly made. A repeat of the scenario looks most likely to re-occur. I just hope that when it does, that nobody gets hurt or killed in the process.
This paragraph says it in a nutshell.

[Bagwan]

The key to all of this fuss is in what Rosberg said afterwards .

He said he had the right to dictate his line because he was on the inside .

I have been set against this point of view every time I've heard Lewis state it , so it would certainly be wrong to allow Nico to get away with it .

But , I think it's the key to why he wasn't flayed by the team . He stated it roughly the same way it had been said in the past , so I think they knew what he would be saying when they got to the debrief .



One thing Nico did get right , at least in the relating of the hard facts(and you're not going to like me saying it) , is that Lewis did turn into him . Nico turned away just afterwards in avoidance , perhaps feigned .

Now , don't get me wrong here(I know some will) , because I believe , as Lewis should be able to do as well , that the spirit of the rule that states that the driver must leave room for his competitors should give him the confidence to have been able to trust that his fellow racer enough to just turn in , at least when there is still a physical chance of getting around the corner on the track .

You have to give the other guy space if he's along side .
It's in the rules .
It's why he was penalized .


So , it's all about the point that Rosberg has been trying to make all along , I believe .
It's incredibly ironic , if I'm right , for Nico to take a penalty and lose points as he makes his point about this .
I think it's why Toto is tired of talking about these incidents . It's the same conversation every time .

Maybe this one will be different .

[Mia 01]

Glad Kimi finished on the podium. The doing was Lewis, he steered into Nico. Lewis get a grip.

[N4D13]

Even if everyone bar Mia here agree on the crash being Nico's fault, I also think that both this crash and the ones in Barcelona and Spa wouldn't have happened had it not been Hamilton driving the other car. Quite a few drivers are overaggressive in their defending and put their cars in positions where the other driver has the choice to take evasive action (often needing to drive out of the track) or crash. Lewis does not seem to be a huge fan of yielding whenever other drivers' defending is excessive or even dirty - so that's why we've got crashes. However, if you rewatch this season's races, you'll find lots of scenarios where the defending driver doesn't leave one car's width, which leaves the pursuer angrily gesticulating at the car in front - but backing off.

This is not to take the blame away from Rosberg - his driving was dirty. I'm just saying that it's not as uncommon amongst the drivers as we'd like to believe.

[Nitrodaze]

I also think that both this crash and the ones in Barcelona and Spa wouldn't have happened had it not been Hamilton driving the other car.

I think Verstapenn in the other car would be equally challenging for Rosberg as we have witnessed a few times this year. It not Hamilton that is the problem. Rosberg finds competition difficult.

[driveace]

Some of you guys on here just don't get it !
Rosberg supposedly was struggling with brakes as for the previous 6or 7 laps Hamilton had been pushing him hard trying to make him make a mistake ! Hamilton was past Rosberg by at least half a car into the right turn .Rosberg made NO attempt to turn into the corner,and went wide forcing Hamilton completely off the confines on the track.Hamilton then tries to rejoin the track and Rosberg tries to stop him doing that too What did Button say ? He said ,not only did Rosbeg drive him off the track ,but he tried to prevent him rejoining it again !!! Think some of you guys should be paying a visit to Specsavers !

[Bagwan]

Some of you guys on here just don't get it !
Rosberg supposedly was struggling with brakes as for the previous 6or 7 laps Hamilton had been pushing him hard trying to make him make a mistake ! Hamilton was past Rosberg by at least half a car into the right turn .Rosberg made NO attempt to turn into the corner,and went wide forcing Hamilton completely off the confines on the track.Hamilton then tries to rejoin the track and Rosberg tries to stop him doing that too What did Button say ? He said ,not only did Rosbeg drive him off the track ,but he tried to prevent him rejoining it again !!! Think some of you guys should be paying a visit to Specsavers !

Calm down .
It'll all be ok .

Nico was wrong to force him off track . The stewards said so .

I'm afraid that on that other point you made , about Lewis coming back on , might not be quite right , or , in fact , any obligation for Nico .
The driver who runs off the track is responsible to regain the track surface safely , not the driver on track .

I'm not sure if it's true , but I've read that Lewis actually hit Nico's car as he re-entered the track .
This was pretty unclear in the replays that I've seen , but , if true , normally a penalized offence .

[henners88]

Calm down .
It'll all be ok .

Nico was wrong to force him off track . The stewards said so .

I'm afraid that on that other point you made , about Lewis coming back on , might not be quite right , or , in fact , any obligation for Nico .
The driver who runs off the track is responsible to regain the track surface safely , not the driver on track .

I'm not sure if it's true , but I've read that Lewis actually hit Nico's car as he re-entered the track .
This was pretty unclear in the replays that I've seen , but , if true , normally a penalized offence .
Nico had a clear view of Lewis re-entering the track and must have realised that by squeezing him he was forcing a contact. Lewis admitted he couldn't see Nico as he was completely in his blind spot. This is the point where racing drivers expect the other to leave room, much like the first contact between them. Jenson Button commented that Nico should have given room for Lewis to re-join the track and perhaps that is an agreement between drivers?

Whatever way you paint this Bagwan it's not looking great for Nico. He acted like a moron in both instances. He's lucky he wasn't penalised for the second contact.

[Bagwan]

Nico had a clear view of Lewis re-entering the track and must have realised that by squeezing him he was forcing a contact. Lewis admitted he couldn't see Nico as he was completely in his blind spot. This is the point where racing drivers expect the other to leave room, much like the first contact between them. Jenson Button commented that Nico should have given room for Lewis to re-join the track and perhaps that is an agreement between drivers?

Whatever way you paint this Bagwan it's not looking great for Nico. He acted like a moron in both instances. He's lucky he wasn't penalised for the second contact.

I'm not aware that Lewis said that Nico was in his blind spot in reference to the "second contact" , as you're calling it now .
So , there was a second contact when Hamilton came back on ?
As far as I know , the onus is on the re-entering driver to make sure it is safe to do so , not at all on the driver on track .

It was suggested that back a couple of races when Nico was forced off in the first corner , that he did so dangerously coming back into the fray in 9th position .
If that was true , then doesn't hitting a guy when returning to the track surface qualify as just a little dangerous as well ?

If he did hit him on re-entry , how the hell does that come off any less friggin' brainless than his partner's dumbass gambit at the corner ?
Both moves could have caused disastrous results , and both moves are not allowed , though only one was sanctioned .

[steveaki13]

I'm afraid that on that other point you made , about Lewis coming back on , might not be quite right , or , in fact , any obligation for Nico .
The driver who runs off the track is responsible to regain the track surface safely , not the driver on track .


I kind of agree Bagwan.

However Button seemed to think differently so I kind of take what he says over anyone on here I reckon :p

[Duncan]

I think the rules are very clear that it's the responsibility of the re-entering driver to re-enter safely.

That said, deliberately making it difficult for them to re-enter (especially when it was you that punted them off the track in the first place) is at best unsporting.

I could be wrong about this, but I watched a few times and couldn't see a second contact. It was definitely close, but it looked like Hamilton took evasive action when he realized Nico was hugging the white line to prevent him re-entering the track and then rejoined behind him without any contact.

[henners88]

I'm not aware that Lewis said that Nico was in his blind spot in reference to the "second contact" , as you're calling it now .
So , there was a second contact when Hamilton came back on ?
As far as I know , the onus is on the re-entering driver to make sure it is safe to do so , not at all on the driver on track .

It was suggested that back a couple of races when Nico was forced off in the first corner , that he did so dangerously coming back into the fray in 9th position .
If that was true , then doesn't hitting a guy when returning to the track surface qualify as just a little dangerous as well ?

If he did hit him on re-entry , how the hell does that come off any less friggin' brainless than his partner's dumbass gambit at the corner ?
Both moves could have caused disastrous results , and both moves are not allowed , though only one was sanctioned .
The rules state it is the driver returning to the racetrack that should do so with care, but drivers already on track should not go out of their way to cause contact like Nico did. They should not make it unnecessarily difficult.

It was a double brainless move by Nico and notice only he was punished for the incident. In Canada also notice nobody swerved towards Nico to cause a crash. It's pretty clear cut, in fact there are not even any finer details from Austria. Nico drove like a tool at the end and ensured Hamilton had a superb victory. I suppose that is a punishment in itself lol.

[henners88]

I think the rules are very clear that it's the responsibility of the re-entering driver to re-enter safely.

That said, deliberately making it difficult for them to re-enter (especially when it was you that punted them off the track in the first place) is at best unsporting.

I could be wrong about this, but I watched a few times and couldn't see a second contact. It was definitely close, but it looked like Hamilton took evasive action when he realized Nico was hugging the white line to prevent him re-entering the track and then rejoined behind him without any contact.
Yeah I don't think they actually touched otherwise Hamilton would have lost his front wing end plate.

I think the sparks were from the wing clipping the high curb as Lewis stayed off track slightly longer. Very unsporting on Nico as you say.

This whole incident would have looked a lot different if Nico had turned into the first part of the corner when expected. At least then it would have looked like he genuinely did not make the corner. It just looked poor on his part and it's becoming a bit of a pattern with the lad.

[Bagwan]

Can we clear up one thing here ?

If you are on the inside , do you get to dictate your line , as Nico said ?

[Zico]

My understanding, whether it fits or not, has pretty much always been.. If you are alongside someone but ahead going into the corner it's your line.. as long as you leave space/racing room.
Yep, Lewis is no angel either and has had his incidents but this was on another level, there is no excuse.

[steveaki13]

Can we clear up one thing here ?

If you are on the inside , do you get to dictate your line , as Nico said ?

Not if you are behind into the braking zone I would guess. Being behind you have responsibility to turn in and avoid contact. Just like if you are behind on theoutside you have an obligation to wait until the apex is clear to turn in.

I would have no problem with Nico turning into the turn which because of the tighter angle would draw him back in front and then ease Hamilton out of road gently. (Not a swerve and push of the track). As it was he did not turn the wheel and aimed at Lewis with relatively clear intention.

Just my opinion

[Starter]

Can we clear up one thing here ?

If you are on the inside , do you get to dictate your line , as Nico said ?
No. It has nothing to do with inside or outside, but who is in front.

[henners88]

Can we clear up one thing here ?

If you are on the inside , do you get to dictate your line , as Nico said ?
I would say if the driver on the inside is in front in the braking zone, then yes they get to pick their line within reason. For example going slightly wider but still leaving room for the guy on the outside to back out. We didn't see this on Sunday, we saw Nico go to the boundary of the track in a straight line and expect Lewis to leave the track. Myself and the stewards felt that was unreasonable.

In Canada we saw Nico on the outside of T1 but half a car length behind and with plenty of opportunity to back out. In Spa a couple of years ago we saw Nico again on the outside but half a car length behind.

The inside is optimal but you need to be ahead of the other driver when reaching the corner. Nico is adding to his history of losing out to Lewis in corners and maybe needs to review how he approaches these situations in future.

[Bagwan]

Didn't we see , when we saw them take each other off earlier this year , that you only need have a portion of your front wing beside the rear wheels of the car ahead to have the right to a car width of space beside him ?

[henners88]

Didn't we see , when we saw them take each other off earlier this year , that you only need have a portion of your front wing beside the rear wheels of the car ahead to have the right to a car width of space beside him ?
Didn't Nico do that on a straight? Crowding another car off the track before they have reached a corner is also under the guidelines of leaving room I would have thought. If your opponent is alongside to some degree, then you can't force them off the track. If they are yet to decide which way to go, a driver has the option to make 'on 'defensive move. That one move does not include crashing into the other.

[henners88]

The start of a race is also treated differently when 20+ cars go into turn one. It's accepted cars may touch and rarely are drivers handed a penalty for causing a collision when the start is so chaotic.

[Bagwan]

I would say if the driver on the inside is in front in the braking zone, then yes they get to pick their line within reason. For example going slightly wider but still leaving room for the guy on the outside to back out. We didn't see this on Sunday, we saw Nico go to the boundary of the track in a straight line and expect Lewis to leave the track. Myself and the stewards felt that was unreasonable.

In Canada we saw Nico on the outside of T1 but half a car length behind and with plenty of opportunity to back out. In Spa a couple of years ago we saw Nico again on the outside but half a car length behind.

The inside is optimal but you need to be ahead of the other driver when reaching the corner. Nico is adding to his history of losing out to Lewis in corners and maybe needs to review how he approaches these situations in future.

In reality , if you are there , occupying the space inside another driver in a corner , you are dictating the line , as he can't , or shouldn't turn into a car beside him .
So , to a degree , Rosberg's statement is correct .

BUT , that degree is the point at which you do not allow space for another driver who is beside you .
That applies to the straights where we saw that any part of a front wing beside a rear wheel is enough .

It is a little different in the corners , where the sighting of the other driver comes into play .
That's why Lewis gets a bye for turning in when he did .
He had a right to the track space , and said he couldn't see Nico by that time .

[henners88]

In reality , if you are there , occupying the space inside another driver in a corner , you are dictating the line , as he can't , or shouldn't turn into a car beside him .
So , to a degree , Rosberg's statement is correct .

BUT , that degree is the point at which you do not allow space for another driver who is beside you .
That applies to the straights where we saw that any part of a front wing beside a rear wheel is enough .

It is a little different in the corners , where the sighting of the other driver comes into play .
That's why Lewis gets a bye for turning in when he did .
He had a right to the track space , and said he couldn't see Nico by that time .
I think we agree.
I doubt this will be the last time either of these two crowd somebody off the track though. Quite often drivers get away with it, but when contact is made I think it crosses the line of fair play.

You can block, defend, force another driver to back out, but forcing them off the track and crashing into each other will always attract the attention of the stewards.

[Bagwan]

I think we agree.
I doubt this will be the last time either of these two crowd somebody off the track though. Quite often drivers get away with it, but when contact is made I think it crosses the line of fair play.

You can block, defend, force another driver to back out, but forcing them off the track and crashing into each other will always attract the attention of the stewards.

Absolutely we agree , but it seems to me that we haven't many times before on this .

I believe Nico is again trying to make a point .
I think he has one to make , but he's attempting to do it in the most stupid way .
And , you can expect he'll turn in , just as Lewis did here , the next time he's around the outside .

Your last statement is Nico's issue , I believe , as he doesn't believe that's the case at all .

[henners88]

I am hugely surprised after all the incidents between these two, Mercedes have not educated their drivers on appropriate attack and defence techniques. Surely this has been discussed to death in their boardroom?

I am also surprised fans on an f1 forum appear to have a better grasp of the rules and driving standards than a current driver. Nico either doesn't know, or he's playing dumb in front of the media in the hope the stewards will give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Bagwan]

I am hugely surprised after all the incidents between these two, Mercedes have not educated their drivers on appropriate attack and defence techniques. Surely this has been discussed to death in their boardroom?

I am also surprised fans on an f1 forum appear to have a better grasp of the rules and driving standards than a current driver. Nico either doesn't know, or he's playing dumb in front of the media in the hope the stewards will give him the benefit of the doubt.

That's just it , though .
They are sick to death of trying to manage these two .

Rosberg's defense here , insisting it was his line to take , implies heavily that this was what he has faced after earlier scenarios were discussed .
He's not playing dumb . He's making a point by playing by internal Merc rules .
Why the hell else would he insist he's right when also saying he respects the decision ?

I believe Merc rules need to change , as the FIA ones won't , and shouldn't .
And , I believe that's what Nico wants .

It's that , or team orders .

[henners88]

That's just it , though .
They are sick to death of trying to manage these two .

Rosberg's defense here , insisting it was his line to take , implies heavily that this was what he has faced after earlier scenarios were discussed .
He's not playing dumb . He's making a point by playing by internal Merc rules .
Why the hell else would he insist he's right when also saying he respects the decision ?

I believe Merc rules need to change , as the FIA ones won't , and shouldn't .
And , I believe that's what Nico wants .

It's that , or team orders .
I haven't seen anything where either have claimed that this is down to 'internal' rules. That's news to me. I know in driver briefings the drivers have agreements where they all agree on reasonable sporting manoeuvres. For example Button has said in a few occasions that something goes beyond the spirit of what is universally agreed at the GPDA. If Mercedes have their own set of agreements then I am not aware these have been made public.

Teams generally tell drivers that the guy on the inside has the corner I would imagine, as long as they don't crash or force each other off. Nico pushed the very boundaries of defending the inside line and I think he's well aware of that.

[Bagwan]

I haven't seen anything where either have claimed that this is down to 'internal' rules. That's news to me. I know in driver briefings the drivers have agreements where they all agree on reasonable sporting manoeuvres. For example Button has said in a few occasions that something goes beyond the spirit of what is universally agreed at the GPDA. If Mercedes have their own set of agreements then I am not aware these have been made public.

Teams generally tell drivers that the guy on the inside has the corner I would imagine, as long as they don't crash or force each other off. Nico pushed the very boundaries of defending the inside line and I think he's well aware of that.

It's all speculation on my part , for sure , but it sure is what it looks like from here .

And his point is that boundaries have been pushed before .
Again , my speculation .

[henners88]

It's all speculation on my part , for sure , but it sure is what it looks like from here .

And his point is that boundaries have been pushed before .
Again , my speculation .
I think it could just as likely be Nico softening the aftermath of his mistake.

You could be right that Mercedes have said the driver up the inside wins the corner, but I doubt they would agree that pushing the other driver off the track is reasonable. If Nico had have turned earlier he would have made the corner and cut Hamilton off at the exit which is perfectly acceptable. Lewis would have had to yield. He went beyond the spirit of any agreement, you'd have to say, and ended up getting his wrist slapped.

[Nitrodaze]

That's just it , though .
They are sick to death of trying to manage these two .

Rosberg's defense here , insisting it was his line to take , implies heavily that this was what he has faced after earlier scenarios were discussed .
He's not playing dumb . He's making a point by playing by internal Merc rules .
Why the hell else would he insist he's right when also saying he respects the decision ?

I believe Merc rules need to change , as the FIA ones won't , and shouldn't .
And , I believe that's what Nico wants .

It's that , or team orders .

Bagwan buddy, are you saying there was team order for the guy who qualified 6th to be allowed to leap to the front of the guy who qualified 1st. It is kind of like you are saying that Mercedes have decided before the race that Rosberg is to win this race and Hamilton should step aside when Rosberg approaches him. Or Hamiton should not overtake Rosberg once they have placed him ahead of him.

Is that what you are saying?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Is that what you are saying?

I think what he's referring to is that there is a standing rule in the Merc team that, when one overtakes the other, the overtaking driver bears main responsibility to minimize risk.

[henners88]

I think what he's referring to is that there is a standing rule in the Merc team that, when one overtakes the other, the overtaking driver bears main responsibility to minimize risk.
Like going to the outer boundaries of the track and leaving 15 feet of room up the inside?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Like going to the outer boundaries of the track and leaving 15 feet of room up the inside?

No, like backing off if you see that your team mate is in a position to make it impossible for you to pass without taking a risk. Nico has backed out of moves countless time where Lewis gave him a simple choice: back off or crash. This time it was Nico's turn and Lewis chose the crash option. He should have know that Nico would use every trick in the book, even dirty ones, to avoid getting mugged in the last lap, simply because he would have done exactly the same.

[Nitrodaze]

I think what he's referring to is that there is a standing rule in the Merc team that, when one overtakes the other, the overtaking driver bears main responsibility to minimize risk.

Ok thanks for clarifying. That would sort of make sense but really unworkable in all circumstances. And l am not sure that it could be applied to the Spielberg situation anyway.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Ok thanks for clarifying. That would sort of make sense but really unworkable in all circumstances. And l am not sure that it could be applied to the Spielberg situation anyway.

It is impractical for the drivers, but Mercedes doesn't give two hoots about who wins the title, they want to maximize team points at all costs and from a team perspective, with the goal of avoiding even normal racing accidents at all costs, that rule is the best way to go.

To me that was a typical Adelaide-94 situation. Rosberg ran wide three times in the two laps before, so Lewis should have know that either Nicos brakes or tyres are fading. All it would have taken would be to brake earlier rather than later, let Nico run wide, and out-accelerate him on the tighter line. I would bet a sizeable amount of currency that Verstappen in Lewis's place would have done exactly that. He seems to have an instictive eye for where his opponents are struggling.

[henners88]

No, like backing off if you see that your team mate is in a position to make it impossible for you to pass without taking a risk. Nico has backed out of moves countless time where Lewis gave him a simple choice: back off or crash. This time it was Nico's turn and Lewis chose the crash option. He should have know that Nico would use every trick in the book, even dirty ones, to avoid getting mugged in the last lap, simply because he would have done exactly the same.

It was too late to back out by the time he was squeezed. Not being able to see the guy about to crash into you doesn't help. Nico should have taken the inside line and cut Lewis off at the apex like Hamilton did to him previously.

It backfired on Nico and once again he walks away looking like the mug. If this really is about playing Lewis at his own game, he's bad at pulling it off.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It backfired on Nico and once again he walks away looking like the mug. If this really is about playing Lewis at his own game, he's bad at pulling it off.

That he certainly is. The problem for Nico is. When it comes to the more robust tactics, Lewis does it instictively. Rosberg has to think about it, which makes him come to late. The failing brake-by-wire certainly didn't help either. To me it looked like a red mist moment for both as Lewis wasn't much better. No matter how he ended off track, rejoining it safely was solely his responsibility, not Nicos. Yet they touched again. First bump goes squarely on Nico, the second one on Lewis.

[henners88]

That he certainly is. The problem for Nico is. When it comes to the more robust tactics, Lewis does it instictively. Rosberg has to think about it, which makes him come to late. The failing brake-by-wire certainly didn't help either. To me it looked like a red mist moment for both as Lewis wasn't much better. No matter how he ended off track, rejoining it safely was solely his responsibility, not Nicos. Yet they touched again. First bump goes squarely on Nico, the second one on Lewis.

They actually didn't touch when Lewis rejoined the track. Sky analysed it to death and it was close but there was no second contact according to all the views they tested. I agree Lewis should take responsibility for coming back onto the track but as another driver said, Nico shouldn't have blocked his path.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Nico shouldn't have blocked his path.

That's wrong. Nico was on the track, Lewis wasn't. Rosberg was under no obligation to leave the racing line just so Lewis can rejoin. If anything, lewis was in the wrong because he tried to force his way onto a piece of track that was occupied by a car. The rules clearly state that he has to wait until he can safely rejoin. Why do you think he has run Rosberg out of road so often in the last three season? Simples: The moment he has Rosberg off the track, Rosberg has to wait until he can safely rejoin, which especially after the start means more cars are likely to slip through before he can come back.
Unless the rules punish pushing a driver out of track limits with harsher penalties, it is a killer tool to get rid of an opponent.

[Starter]

I think what he's referring to is that there is a standing rule in the Merc team that, when one overtakes the other, the overtaking driver bears main responsibility to minimize risk.
That's not a Mercedes rule, that is THE rule.

[keysersoze]

To me that was a typical Adelaide-94 situation. Rosberg ran wide three times in the two laps before, so Lewis should have know that either Nicos brakes or tyres are fading. All it would have taken would be to brake earlier rather than later, let Nico run wide, and out-accelerate him on the tighter line. I would bet a sizeable amount of currency that Verstappen in Lewis's place would have done exactly that. He seems to have an instictive eye for where his opponents are struggling.

All this post-incident ratiocination is utter hogwash. It is absurd--ABSURD--that you would claim that you know better than Lewis Hamilton, that you would advise him how to race Nico at that point. He should KNOW Nico's brakes or tires are fading? Heck, Sergio didn't even know his own brakes were gone--how the heck is Lewis supposed to know what is going on with Nico's? If Nico was running wide, it's not necessarily down to tires / brakes--he could be overdriving his car. Who knows? The point is, only Nico (and his team) does.

I do not buy that Hamilton should have out-accelerated him on the following straight. He had already out-accelerated Rosberg and was ahead. He also has experience racing Nico out of a turn--Spain this year--and knew that the man cannot be trusted to take a normal line. Nico could have taken a wide line and still take a tight, dangerous line on exit.

The typical over-under move takes place by the driver who is ahead on the previous straight--the driver attempting to overtake understeers, so the leading driver is able to reclaim a position he never truly lost. Finally, I've never seen a driver AHEAD (and on the outside) going into a braking zone opt for the over-under--that move takes place if the driver on the inside is even or ahead.

[henners88]

That's wrong. Nico was on the track, Lewis wasn't. Rosberg was under no obligation to leave the racing line just so Lewis can rejoin. If anything, lewis was in the wrong because he tried to force his way onto a piece of track that was occupied by a car. The rules clearly state that he has to wait until he can safely rejoin. Why do you think he has run Rosberg out of road so often in the last three season? Simples: The moment he has Rosberg off the track, Rosberg has to wait until he can safely rejoin, which especially after the start means more cars are likely to slip through before he can come back.
Unless the rules punish pushing a driver out of track limits with harsher penalties, it is a killer tool to get rid of an opponent.
I'm not convinced Nico drove past Lewis as he was rejoining and was 100% sure it wasn't going to be a big impact. It was only by Hamilton's quick reactions that it wasn't. Lewis couldn't possibly have been able to see Nico with the angle he was taking to get back on track. His mirrors would have seen the run off area and the high cockpit sides would block him looking sideways. Drivers expect to be left room and in this instance Nico was in a better place to judge. I think red mist and knowing his car was knackered meant he didn't give a toss at that point. Plus he was getting ready to slow down so it was no longer about racing but limping to the finish.

Lewis wasn't investigated for the re-entry and neither was Nico in Canada.

[Starter]

Here's something for the debate. From the international Sporting Code, Article L (bold is mine):

CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS
Art. 2 Overtaking, car control and track limits
b) Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left. A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.

More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted.
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards.

c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

[Bagwan]

I think it could just as likely be Nico softening the aftermath of his mistake.

You could be right that Mercedes have said the driver up the inside wins the corner, but I doubt they would agree that pushing the other driver off the track is reasonable. If Nico had have turned earlier he would have made the corner and cut Hamilton off at the exit which is perfectly acceptable. Lewis would have had to yield. He went beyond the spirit of any agreement, you'd have to say, and ended up getting his wrist slapped.

Nico did say he thought he left enough room for Lewis , and said that Hamilton turned in before expected .
Given that we judge Hamilton to have turned in when he saw he was running out of track , should we not give Nico the same treatment ?

He misread that space , no doubt , but couldn't you put that specific point at least a little down to bad grip and no brake by wire ?
The loss of brake by wire no doubt made it look worse , with no dramatic locking of tires on Nico's car , to be sure .


The "Merc rules" idea I've invented here is maybe a bit misleading .
It's not as dj suggests , about the overtaking driver being responsible .

It's about the justification you can use to push your team-mate off .

[henners88]

Nico did say he thought he left enough room for Lewis , and said that Hamilton turned in before expected .
Given that we judge Hamilton to have turned in when he saw he was running out of track , should we not give Nico the same treatment ?

He misread that space , no doubt , but couldn't you put that specific point at least a little down to bad grip and no brake by wire ?
The loss of brake by wire no doubt made it look worse , with no dramatic locking of tires on Nico's car , to be sure .


The "Merc rules" idea I've invented here is maybe a bit misleading .
It's not as dj suggests , about the overtaking driver being responsible .

It's about the justification you can use to push your team-mate off .
If Nico had turned into the corner several feet earlier but continued forward into Lewis, I would believe the brake issue played its part. But Nico has said he was on the inside so could choose his line. I think he knew he was going to the very boundary of the racetrack and I think he thought Lewis would just dive across the run off area. The fact he was in Hamilton's blind spot meant the whole thing backfired.

[Bagwan]

If Nico had turned into the corner several feet earlier but continued forward into Lewis, I would believe the brake issue played its part. But Nico has said he was on the inside so could choose his line. I think he knew he was going to the very boundary of the racetrack and I think he thought Lewis would just dive across the run off area. The fact he was in Hamilton's blind spot meant the whole thing backfired.

If he had a tire lighting up , I think that odds are that it would have been something Lewis could have seen , as he was passing him in the braking zone . That might have clued him in and had him run straight , so as to avoid a slider .
But Nico wasn't sliding , so looked much more in control , and , in fact was .

The point there was more that we accept all Hamilton has said as fact , but seemingly , even though it was a judgement call , we don't seem to be able to accept that Nico said that he thought he left enough room .
He was obviously wrong , but nonetheless , it seems unfair .


Your last sentence says it all for both of them .

[henners88]

If he had a tire lighting up , I think that odds are that it would have been something Lewis could have seen , as he was passing him in the braking zone . That might have clued him in and had him run straight , so as to avoid a slider .
But Nico wasn't sliding , so looked much more in control , and , in fact was .

The point there was more that we accept all Hamilton has said as fact , but seemingly , even though it was a judgement call , we don't seem to be able to accept that Nico said that he thought he left enough room .
He was obviously wrong , but nonetheless , it seems unfair .


Your last sentence says it all for both of them .

From watching the replay Lewis was already half a car length in front by the time they came to brake. In the fractions of a second when glancing across I would think he'd be checking track position rather than performing a visual MOT on Nico's car.

I suppose I believe Hamilton in regards to his comments after the incident whereas with Nico I have doubt. Lewis was calm and his description of the incident seemed spot on with what we saw on tv. Nico was visibly frustrated by not winning the race and seemed to try and push the responsibility for the accident onto Lewis. If Nico thought he was leaving room, I really don't know how he managed to judge every apex through the whole weekend. These guys are seated low, but have a good idea where the edge of the track is. Lewis was able to turn knowing where the track limit was after all.

[Bagwan]

From watching the replay Lewis was already half a car length in front by the time they came to brake. In the fractions of a second when glancing across I would think he'd be checking track position rather than performing a visual MOT on Nico's car.

I suppose I believe Hamilton in regards to his comments after the incident whereas with Nico I have doubt. Lewis was calm and his description of the incident seemed spot on with what we saw on tv. Nico was visibly frustrated by not winning the race and seemed to try and push the responsibility for the accident onto Lewis. If Nico thought he was leaving room, I really don't know how he managed to judge every apex through the whole weekend. These guys are seated low, but have a good idea where the edge of the track is. Lewis was able to turn knowing where the track limit was after all.

Lewis did turn in , remember , assuming he could when he actually had a car beside him .
No matter the reason , that turned out to be a mistake .

[Warriwa]

Lewis chose the crash option. He should have know that Nico would use every trick in the book, even dirty ones, to avoid getting mugged in the last lap

Wow, just wow !!
That's an interesting perspective.

[truefan72]

Wow, just wow !!
That's an interesting perspective.

to me it is pointless discussing this incident with him or now (sadly) Bagwan. Mia is also good for a few laughs.
I've quietly (mostly) read through all these posts and those afore mentioned 2 seem hell bent on defending Nico, evidence, precedent, video, facts, stewards decisions, professional opinions...all be damned.
So I see no point in responding or discussing it, because it is an exercise in futility.

[dj_bytedisaster]

to me it is pointless discussing this incident with him or now (sadly) Bagwan. Mia is also good for a few laughs.
I've quietly (mostly) read through all these posts and those afore mentioned 2 seem hell bent on defending Nico, evidence, precedent, video, facts, stewards decisions, professional opinions...all be damned.
So I see no point in responding or discussing it, because it is an exercise in futility.

I seem to remember writing that the collision was Nico's fault, which doesn't sound like defending him. What I merely dared to point out was, that there are easier ways that always choosing the riskiest option. It worked out for Lewis here, mainly because Nico is just not as good at dirty driving, in Barcelona it certainly didn't work out and lewis threw away 25 easy points, just because the option of breaking and using plan B doesn't exist for him.

[Mintexmemory]

It worked out for Lewis here, mainly because Nico is just not as good at race driving,

There fixed it for you! (my pleasure, don't mention it.)

[henners88]

I seem to remember writing that the collision was Nico's fault, which doesn't sound like defending him. What I merely dared to point out was, that there are easier ways that always choosing the riskiest option. It worked out for Lewis here, mainly because Nico is just not as good at dirty driving, in Barcelona it certainly didn't work out and lewis threw away 25 easy points, just because the option of breaking and using plan B doesn't exist for him.

Spot the underhand contradictory dig at Hamilton there.

[Nitrodaze]

No, like backing off if you see that your team mate is in a position to make it impossible for you to pass without taking a risk. Nico has backed out of moves countless time where Lewis gave him a simple choice: back off or crash. This time it was Nico's turn and Lewis chose the crash option. He should have know that Nico would use every trick in the book, even dirty ones, to avoid getting mugged in the last lap, simply because he would have done exactly the same.

Backing off when you are ahead in the corner would have been dangerous, judging by the relative positions of the cars. If you look at all the successful maneuvers that have resulted in a pass in the corner, rarely would you find any that is from the position that Rosberg was operating from. His chance of taking the position was already handed to him by Hamilton by taking the wide line through the corner. All Nico had to do was to cut the apex and he would have been ahead coming out of the corner. Hamilton had taken the path to have a better traction coming out of the corner to retake the position.
Whichever way you look at it. Rosberg drove a daft maneuver through that corner and paid a well deserving price for it. That does not diminish my support for him as the leading underdog. But it frustrates the hell out of me to see him slowly throw away what seem like a done deal if he just keeps it together.

If Hamilton can pull off a win of this title, it would be one of his most deserving title of all his titles so far. He appears to be driving against the odds. Without the clear support of the team.

[Bagwan]

to me it is pointless discussing this incident with him or now (sadly) Bagwan. Mia is also good for a few laughs.
I've quietly (mostly) read through all these posts and those afore mentioned 2 seem hell bent on defending Nico, evidence, precedent, video, facts, stewards decisions, professional opinions...all be damned.
So I see no point in responding or discussing it, because it is an exercise in futility.

This has actually been a very civilized discussion , with many good points and counterpoints .

With maybe the exception of Mia , who has every right to her opinion , everyone agrees Nico was a knob there .
That , perhaps , we think that he wasn't the only knob out there is our opinion .

I can't speak for the others , but my opinion is open to change if you've got the evidence to convince me .


Please stop insulting people .
Let's talk about the racing instead .

[jens]

I don't want to go into all these deep arguments, which people understandably have here. Just some short thoughts from my POV.

* I'd really like Rosberg to win one WDC in his career, especially given as long as he has the opportunity to drive excellent cars. But every other weekend he keeps reminding me, which he would struggle to do so... What a pity.

* Vettel has been suffering from quite a lot of unluck this year. Already 3 DNF's, which is quite a lot by modern standards. With a smooth run Vettel could even threaten the championship battle, but as of now he can forget about it...

* Ricciardo is obviously clearly better than Verstappen in qualifyings, but in race trim Max seems to have an edge pretty often, which quite frankly I find rather amazing.

[The Black Knight]

I don't want to go into all these deep arguments, which people understandably have here. Just some short thoughts from my POV.

* I'd really like Rosberg to win one WDC in his career, especially given as long as he has the opportunity to drive excellent cars. But every other weekend he keeps reminding me, which he would struggle to do so... What a pity.

* Vettel has been suffering from quite a lot of unluck this year. Already 3 DNF's, which is quite a lot by modern standards. With a smooth run Vettel could even threaten the championship battle, but as of now he can forget about it...

* Ricciardo is obviously clearly better than Verstappen in qualifyings, but in race trim Max seems to have an edge pretty often, which quite frankly I find rather amazing.

Agree with all the above. Vettel's driving has been none too shabby this year but has been unlucky on a number of occasions, especially Russia. He really needs to stop moaning about tough racing though e.g. Ricciardo in Spain.

Regarding Verstappen, I am really interested to see how his qualifying is going to progress. He has been amazing in race mode but qualifying is his Achilles heel right now and his only one. It's really amazing how well he is doing overall but some drivers just don't have out and out qualifying pace. It'll be interesting to see how his develops.

[The Black Knight]

Backing off when you are ahead in the corner would have been dangerous, judging by the relative positions of the cars. If you look at all the successful maneuvers that have resulted in a pass in the corner, rarely would you find any that is from the position that Rosberg was operating from. His chance of taking the position was already handed to him by Hamilton by taking the wide line through the corner. All Nico had to do was to cut the apex and he would have been ahead coming out of the corner. Hamilton had taken the path to have a better traction coming out of the corner to retake the position.
Whichever way you look at it. Rosberg drove a daft maneuver through that corner and paid a well deserving price for it. That does not diminish my support for him as the leading underdog. But it frustrates the hell out of me to see him slowly throw away what seem like a done deal if he just keeps it together.

If Hamilton can pull off a win of this title, it would be one of his most deserving title of all his titles so far. He appears to be driving against the odds. Without the clear support of the team.

What is most about Hamilton in this championship is that he's only 11 points behind after suffering massive reliability problems. There's no doubt he has been the better driver overall but Nico has made full use of the advantage when handed it. I think Hamilton will win the title. 11 points is nothing nowadays. It's pretty much a clean slate from here. In fact, I'd say the championship pretty much restarts from here now.

[Nitrodaze]

I don't want to go into all these deep arguments, which people understandably have here. Just some short thoughts from my POV.

* I'd really like Rosberg to win one WDC in his career, especially given as long as he has the opportunity to drive excellent cars. But every other weekend he keeps reminding me, which he would struggle to do so... What a pity.

* Vettel has been suffering from quite a lot of unluck this year. Already 3 DNF's, which is quite a lot by modern standards. With a smooth run Vettel could even threaten the championship battle, but as of now he can forget about it...

* Ricciardo is obviously clearly better than Verstappen in qualifyings, but in race trim Max seems to have an edge pretty often, which quite frankly I find rather amazing.

Not so surprising. Kyvat also had the edge in the race most times last year and this year too. He is struggling with tyre management over long runs.

[Nitrodaze]

What is most about Hamilton in this championship is that he's only 11 points behind after suffering massive reliability problems. There's no doubt he has been the better driver overall but Nico has made full use of the advantage when handed it. I think Hamilton will win the title. 11 points is nothing nowadays. It's pretty much a clean slate from here. In fact, I'd say the championship pretty much restarts from here now.

Fair comments, l would add " All things being equal!". CETERIS PARIBUS