Canada 2116

[Bagwan]

Here it comes .
Friday will be cool at 20 degrees Celsius , Saturday 19C , with a 70% chance of rain , and Sunday only 15C with a 30% rain chance .

That sounds like a pretty messed up grid , and a race where there are few tires ever getting to a proper racing temperature , and likely some wacky strategies .

The reds have new stuff , hoping to be a lot faster .
FI is hot right now , so could do some midfield damage in the standings .
The bulls have some momentum right now , and even if the package doesn't fit the track , a wet or cool track could bring good aerodynamics a little more to the fore .

Hell , all the minnows will be looking to score in the cool weather .
Can't wait .

Wish I was there . Good party . Maybe next year . Sigh .

[Starter]

It should be a good weekend, but I'm not sure I am willing to wait that long for it to start. By the way, your weather forecasting skills are good - never seen any that far out in the future before.

[jens]

It should be a good weekend, but I'm not sure I am willing to wait that long for it to start. By the way, your weather forecasting skills are good - never seen any that far out in the future before.

Ehh.:D

And who knows, what is there in Canada in 2116. Bagwan doesn't mention we are talking about F1.:p:

As long as the weather is good, it should be fine though. ;) :p:

[steveaki13]

wow F1 in 100 years time. What will that be like.

[Bagwan]

Looks like I'm well ahead of all you guys , eh ?

Alright then , let's look back 100 years from 2116 to the race weekend that starts tomorrow .
Strangely , the weather looks exactly the same , and the situation I described is almost identical , except that the cars have wheels and are not made of hemp .

[steveaki13]

I always love the Canadian GP. It always throws up some excitement. I think Mercedes will be ahead, but maybe the race will not be straight forward.

[Big Ben]

wow F1 in 100 years time. What will that be like.

I expect that F1 will still be run by Bernie Ecclestone

[Bagwan]

I expect that F1 will still be run by Bernie Ecclestone

By then , it will be Eccleclone .

But , back to the present , kids .
Sorry to have confused you all .


We've just had the cold and wet they will be getting in Montreal , and it sucked .
I can't see anybody getting the temperature of the tires anywhere near optimum .

Seat pad for the cold butt will be really necessary for anyone going to the race .

[Bagwan]

Weather update has it up to 25C on Saturday , with no rain .
Then , it says it will rain through the night .

And , Sunday's temperature drops like a stone to 14C , and a 60% chance of rain .

There is going to be a lot of guessing going on .

Just hours before first practice , and I can't wait .

[Bagwan]

Lewis fastest by three tenths in first practice on supersofts against Nico on ultras .

Massa , with a malfunctioning DRS , wacks the barriers at turn 1 .

Under an hour until second practice .

[Tazio]

Bad luck Felipe Baggy! ;)

[Tazio]

Looks like I'm well ahead of all you guys , eh ?

Alright then , let's look back 100 years from 2116 to the race weekend that starts tomorrow .
Strangely , the weather looks exactly the same , and the situation I described is almost identical , except that the cars have wheels and are not made of hemp .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4bc9UwZsYs :angel:

[steveaki13]

Nasty shunt for Felipe. The boss looks in good form.

I think Nico has a chance of outqualifying him though. Rarely does one Merc driver top all sessions.

[Nitrodaze]

It would be great if part of the race is wet to mix things up abit.

[Tazio]

I'm going with The Boss in this one. I think he is due for a hot streak, and Nicos streak has been broken. Just a gut feeling, and I think weather and which teams respond best will succeed.

[Tazio]

Practice 3 starts dry, with a rush to get out, I think it's starting to spit already!

[The Black Knight]

Interestingly it looked like Ferrari or Red Bull could challenge Mercedes for pole today. Looked like a very interesting FP3 and certainly have no idea whom is going to win or get pole this weekend. One would still fancy the Mercs but they have no engine upgrades, the rest do and it could have made that difference.

[steveaki13]

Good pole from Hamilton.

It is very close behind. I hope for a good race

[Nitrodaze]

Good pole from Hamilton.

It is very close behind. I hope for a good race

The climatic conditions during Q3 ensured that we did not get to see the true pace of the cars. Vettle thinks there is more in the Ferrari to be closer than he managed. Hamilton thinks there is more in the W07 to achieve mid to low 1.12 sec. Ferrari usually have stronger race pace than qualifying but are not so good in the wet. The Redbull seem to have very good race pace, well enough to give Ferrari a hard time. All things being equal, l would say Mercedes are going to have a relatively easy race, assuming their brakes hold up and no new gremlins appear during the race, and they both have a good start.

The race tomorrow would be great if it starts dry. If so, it would come down to who gets the best start off the line to the first corner. The Mercedes are abit weak starting off the line compared to the Ferrari and Redbull. Hence chances are that we may have Ferrari in the lead by the first corner. The Redbull may have an even better start. If it rains, the Ferrari may drift backwards and the Redbulls may move forward and take the fight to the Mercedes.

Sundays conditions suggests that even Ricciado in 4th can win the race.

[Bagwan]

One forecaster saying 80% chance of light rain in the afternoon , and a blistering 13C .

Other than the fact that they are still round at these temperatures , they don't have much relevant information about how the tires will react .

I just hope we don't see any safety car start nonsense like last race .

[Bagwan]

So , at this point , the forecast says the rain will hold off until at least 1:30pm , but they are still saying 80% chance of rain sometime after that .
Only the small amount of 1-3cm is expected , so it should be tough on traction and maybe not as tough on visibility .

It's looking more like a dry start to a wet race .

I can't wait .

[Bagwan]

Looked like a puff of smoke out of the back of Hamilton's car on exit from the pits : could be nothing .

[Tazio]

I'm looking forward to it also Baggy, especially if the weather dictates a multiple stop race, as opposed to a one stopper if it is dry (for most).
Latest weather projection: http://www.accuweather.com/en/ca/montreal/h2k/hourly-weather-forecast/56186?hour=11
Raining lightly at -25min
Come on rain :sailor:

[Tazio]

Looked like a puff of smoke out of the back of Hamilton's car on exit from the pits : could be nothing . I thought it was a tire lock up :confused:

[Bagwan]

Penelope Cruz smokin' hot on the grid .

I woulda locked my tires , too .

[Tazio]

Great freakin' start by Vettel

[Tazio]

Boss gonna get Seb!

[Tazio]

Jense on fire VSC!

[Tazio]

Ferrari pit both cars on lap 11 under VSC

[Stan Reid]

Well, it looks like NBC will not show one of the four GPs they were going to broadcasrt so they can tell us the same thing every two minutes about the Orlando shooting.

[gm99]

RBR screw up another of Ricciardo's pit stops? C'mon!

[Stan Reid]

Finally-It's on!!

[Robinho]

Driver of the day has to be Max for the last few laps of actually wanting and being able to defend against a faster car and frankly making Nico look a bit silly

[Stan Reid]

Finally-It's on!!

Even though we got 2 minutes of racing and 27 minutes in interviews.

[Stan Reid]

Does anyone think that Merc might be micro-detuning one car to fix the races? Funny that Nico starts losing all of a sudden after he's gotten too far ahead in the points.:idea:

[Nitrodaze]

Does anyone think that Merc might be micro-detuning one car to fix the races? Funny that Nico starts losing all of a sudden after he's gotten too far ahead in the points.:idea:

c'mon dude. It was all racing today, no underhand stuff going on. Nico was unlucky not to be able to complete the move and paid the price by being run off the track. It was hard racing as Verstapenn also showed.

I did think that a super soft or Ultrasoft would have been a better choice of tyre for Rosberg after the slow puncture,, but he was quicker than the Redbull on the softs anyway. He probably may have passed Max easier on the supersofts. So you might say that Mercedes got the strategy wrong for Rosberg. But it was not intentional.

[Nitrodaze]

Unlucky for Ferrari, but it was exciting to see the Ferrari unleash its engine potential. They might have thrown to the race away today with a not so optimal strategy. But it is clear, Mercedes have to work hard to win in the future.

It is also clear that the Redbull is not as quick as the Ferrari on pure pace but quick enough to give them a hard time.

What about the Williams? Great pace, clean pitstops and great race strategy. It is beginning to look promising for the Williams Operational performance. Shame about Massa having a very rare Mercedes engine problem. There was a piece of plastic blowing about on the track. I thought it might be a nuisance to someones engine if it got sucked into the side pods of the cars. Massa probably caught one of those. Engine heating on a cold day is definitely not normal.

[A FONDO]

What a borefest it was again. :(

[The Black Knight]

Really enjoyed that race. Great racing throughout. It shows that an exciting race at the front doesn't have to be full of overtaking, it just needs to keep you captivated. I was really interested in whether Vettel could make up ground on Hamilton or not.

I commend Ferrari for their pitstop during the VC. I wouldn't ever criticise a team for trying something unorthodox to spice it up a little. They did that and had the VSC lasted 15 more seconds I think it could have proved a real masterstroke. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I am not sure I'd have done the same thing in their position.

Nice to see Ferrari put it up to the Mercedes though. They have made a real step forward but the problem is while they made a step forward, Mercedes next step lies in waiting. Looking forward to Baku next week.

Driver of the race - gotta be Max and Hamilton. Neither put a foot wrong

[Stan Reid]

Or maybe they just see that the engine that tests a couple of horspower shy on the dyno gets into the car of the guy they don't want to win. It was the same last year; Ham was unbeatable until he clinched the championship then all of a sudden Nico is unbeatable. That and what's happened this year is all one hell of a coincidence. The only thing that argues against it is that surely they would not be so stupid as to make it so obvious. Almost anything is possible though.;)

[Zico]

Or maybe they just see that the engine that tests a couple of horspower shy on the dyno gets into the car of the guy they don't want to win. It was the same last year; Ham was unbeatable until he clinched the championship then all of a sudden Nico is unbeatable. That and what's happened this year is all one hell of a coincidence. The only thing that argues against it is that surely they would not be so stupid as to make it so obvious. Almost anything is possible though.;)

If it was later in the season, Rosberg was catchable and the constructors was all but sewn up I'd understand why you might think that way but sorry, no.. it's too early, RB and Ferrari are too close and if I was as cynical.. I'd actually expect it to be the other way with them giving their 'homeboy' the boost!

[Starter]

Good race for most everybody but Nico. Max has to be driver of the day for his clean defense of his position.

[Tazio]

Excellent defense by Max, but according to Nico he couldn't do maximum attack due to fuel limitations .

“It was difficult, especially with fuel – I nearly ran out of fuel and so that’s why I couldn’t really attack Max properly at the end,” says Rosberg.
“He did a very good job as well to defend when I was attacking. But then I had to drop back, save fuel, try again,

[The Black Knight]

If it was later in the season, Rosberg was catchable and the constructors was all but sewn up I'd understand why you might think that way but sorry, no.. it's too early, RB and Ferrari are too close and if I was as cynical.. I'd actually expect it to be the other way with them giving their 'homeboy' the boost!

I wouldn't even entertain these conspiracy theorists to be honest. It's nothing other than dumb stupidity to suggest that a team would invest 300 million a year only to sabotage one of their cars.

[Bagwan]

I guess nobody wants to talk about the first corner , eh ?

[Mia 01]

Me! Once Moore Lewis puts Nico off track and gets away with it whitout some hefty pnuishment. Really, it´s shameful.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I guess nobody wants to talk about the first corner , eh ?

It would just end in a flame-war anyway. So maybe it's just best to drop it. There's nothing on that topic that hasn't been said a thousand times before.

[AndyL]

I guess nobody wants to talk about the first corner , eh ?

Assuming you mean Seb's seagulls, yeah, what's up with those Quebecois seagulls? Crazy.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Assuming you mean Seb's seagulls, yeah, what's up with those Quebecois seagulls? Crazy.

But they caused the hillarious interview with Seb and Lewis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpYeiQmgq70

[Bagwan]

It would just end in a flame-war anyway. So maybe it's just best to drop it. There's nothing on that topic that hasn't been said a thousand times before.

You can't get much farther alongside , but why would that make it clear that Nico saved them another complete and utter embarrassment by ducking out of the sliding Lewis's way ?
You're right .
Best not to say too much about it .

[yodasarmpit]

Excellent defense by Max, but according to Nico he couldn't do maximum attack due to fuel limitations .You would think Nico would realise this is the same fuel limitations as everyone else :)

Max did a stellar job defending, and not for the first time this season - well done to him.

[Tazio]

You would think Nico would realise this is the same fuel limitations as everyone else :)

Max did a stellar job defending, and not for the first time this season - well done to him.
I'm not making excuses for Nico. He could have been more conservative with his fuel earlier in the race. However we probably would have been robbed of his joust with Max at the end :idea:

[mr_swiss]

DRS makes me more sick every race. Seeing Max race his heart out and then seeing the wing open on Nico's car, almost made me puke.
This needs to go, NOW.

[Nitrodaze]

Or maybe they just see that the engine that tests a couple of horspower shy on the dyno gets into the car of the guy they don't want to win. It was the same last year; Ham was unbeatable until he clinched the championship then all of a sudden Nico is unbeatable. That and what's happened this year is all one hell of a coincidence. The only thing that argues against it is that surely they would not be so stupid as to make it so obvious. Almost anything is possible though.;)

If Hamilton's answer about whether his season has turnaround at Monaco is anything to go by, there may be some something in your innuendos. But there is some doubt that Rosberg is being hampered, if anything, l would think Mercedes would want to give him a leg up to win at least one title.

[zako85]

What's surprising is how Hamilton managed to finish the race and win with one less pit stop than most of the grid in Monaco and Canada. This pit stop delta was almost certainly what helped him win. Which makes me wonder, about his tire use. Is it the car or the driver that's very good with tire wear, or perhaps it's Pirelli's fault?

[henners88]

I guess nobody wants to talk about the first corner , eh ?
Sure, it reminded me of Lewis a few years ago on the outside when he too was pushed onto the grass. It's just the danger of being on the outside into turn 1. There was no malice or intent, nor has many of the media suggested otherwise. I can see why it would be an issue in this type of arena though.

[Tazio]

Not really much to it.

It wasn't what I would call big boy bumping! ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqmNYVLiRxM

[dj_bytedisaster]

I'm not making excuses for Nico. He could have been more conservative with his fuel earlier in the race. However we probably would have been robbed of his joust with Max at the end :idea:

The problem was that Merc were starting 1 and 2 and probably fuelled their cars for running up front. Nobody expected Rosberg to be stuck in traffic, but Lewis changed that in T1.

[The Black Knight]

What's surprising is how Hamilton managed to finish the race and win with one less pit stop than most of the grid in Monaco and Canada. This pit stop delta was almost certainly what helped him win. Which makes me wonder, about his tire use. Is it the car or the driver that's very good with tire wear, or perhaps it's Pirelli's fault?

The best drivers will ultimately find the best way of driving around the tires. This is something I always felt Hamilton wasn't very good at earlier in his career but he has really come on in the last couple of years are working with what he has been given and getting the most out of it.


Not really much to it.

It wasn't what I would call big boy bumping! ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqmNYVLiRxM

Ah but Schumacher didn't see JPM there ;)


You can't get much farther alongside , but why would that make it clear that Nico saved them another complete and utter embarrassment by ducking out of the sliding Lewis's way ?
You're right .
Best not to say too much about it .

There's not much to say about it. Racing incident. Lewis had understeer but I can understand why people would like to make more of it than it is.

[dj_bytedisaster]

What's surprising is how Hamilton managed to finish the race and win with one less pit stop than most of the grid in Monaco and Canada. This pit stop delta was almost certainly what helped him win. Which makes me wonder, about his tire use. Is it the car or the driver that's very good with tire wear, or perhaps it's Pirelli's fault?

It's the same as with Vettel 2013. If you run up front never challenging anyone and never being challenged, it's easy to nurse the tyres. It's running in traffic that kills the tyres.

[The Black Knight]

But they caused the hillarious interview with Seb and Lewis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpYeiQmgq70

First time I had seen that interview - thanks for the link. I usually watch all the Sky coverage post race but wasn't able to on Sunday. It's great to see that kind of relationship between two top drivers. I've noticed over the last year that Hamilton and Vettel always seem to get on quite well and it's great to see.

[henners88]

The problem was that Merc were starting 1 and 2 and probably fuelled their cars for running up front. Nobody expected Rosberg to be stuck in traffic, but Lewis changed that in T1.
Yeah it ended working well for Lewis and I felt it was a dominant drive at a crucial stage in the season. Canada has always been one of Hamilton's better tracks and one where if he's behind he usually finds his way through.

Lewis is historically the stronger of the two mentally and I feel we could be in for a treat this year. It makes a change to see a battle after a boring 2015 season and a Ferrari in the mix to take advantage if the leaders stuff up a race or two.

[jens]

Watched the race yesterday with a "fast forward" motion.

Great to see two great drivers battling it out at the front with cars pretty close too. Good to see at least for once Ferrari could give Mercedes a real run for its money.

Rosberg has lost almost everything he gained early in the season...

Also it is somewhat visible the gaps between teams have closed this year compared to 2014 & 2015. Four different teams in the top 4. It felt like I haven't seen such thing for three years already. Back in 2013 there were races in which four different teams were at the front: RBR (Vettel), Ferrari (Alonso), Mercedes (Hamilton), Lotus (Räikkönen).

[Bagwan]

I've heard a number of times now from various sources , including the man , himself , saying that Lewis had "understeer" , and this is why he ran wide into Nico .
It makes complete sense that this is true , as he both wanted the position and wouldn't want to put his team mate off .

But , isn't "understeer" , where one loses adherence with the track and slides ?
A slide has you going straight , and not in complete control .

Now , to be fair , it was Rosberg who was squeezing Lewis's trajectory inward , and likely caused some of the issue , but it should have been his choice to do so because he was fully alongside with Lewis .

At that point , the rules say you are required to leave room .
That would have required a lift or an earlier braking point for Lewis , which he was not prepared to do .

Of course you take a risk going around the outside , but is it ever going to be worth the risk if the guy on the inside can just punt you off citing understeer as the reason ?

It sounds a lot like "I knew he was there but refused to slow down enough to make the corner tighter just because he was there , so I lost control and took him off , so that's ok then ." .


Lewis said it wasn't intentional that he punted him off .
Toto is tired of these discussions after the racing ends .
Coming out of the third corner 2nd and 9th , after starting first and second is not what he wants .




Please , somebody , explain to me why this kind of action is ok for anyone , not just Lewis .

[dj_bytedisaster]

Please , somebody , explain to me why this kind of action is ok for anyone , not just Lewis .

It wasn't understeer, that's just the excuse. The stewards didn't even investigate though, so I guess it is a valid move now. It must suck to be Rosberg right now. He let's Lewis pass at Monaco and as a way of thank you he's being punted off the next race. Guess he'll finally know where his place is then.

[The Black Knight]

Even Rosberg said that it was a fair racing manoeuvre afterwards but you guys just continue on and make something out of nothing.

[Bagwan]

Even Rosberg said that it was a fair racing manoeuvre afterwards but you guys just continue on and make something out of nothing.

Not exactly .
He said he was "hacked off" at first , and then he implied that he wouldn't back out of it next time .

It was not "nothing" .

[Bagwan]

It wasn't understeer, that's just the excuse. The stewards didn't even investigate though, so I guess it is a valid move now. It must suck to be Rosberg right now. He let's Lewis pass at Monaco and as a way of thank you he's being punted off the next race. Guess he'll finally know where his place is then.

Toto did say he was unhappy with the move .
Tough to manage the two egos in this situation .

[henners88]

I've heard a number of times now from various sources , including the man , himself , saying that Lewis had "understeer" , and this is why he ran wide into Nico .
It makes complete sense that this is true , as he both wanted the position and wouldn't want to put his team mate off .

But , isn't "understeer" , where one loses adherence with the track and slides ?
A slide has you going straight , and not in complete control .

Now , to be fair , it was Rosberg who was squeezing Lewis's trajectory inward , and likely caused some of the issue , but it should have been his choice to do so because he was fully alongside with Lewis .

At that point , the rules say you are required to leave room .
That would have required a lift or an earlier braking point for Lewis , which he was not prepared to do .

Of course you take a risk going around the outside , but is it ever going to be worth the risk if the guy on the inside can just punt you off citing understeer as the reason ?

It sounds a lot like "I knew he was there but refused to slow down enough to make the corner tighter just because he was there , so I lost control and took him off , so that's ok then ." .


Lewis said it wasn't intentional that he punted him off .
Toto is tired of these discussions after the racing ends .
Coming out of the third corner 2nd and 9th , after starting first and second is not what he wants .




Please , somebody , explain to me why this kind of action is ok for anyone , not just Lewis .

Nico had under steer in Monaco qualifying a couple of years ago and did not slide sideways but went completely in a straight line. Loss of traction comes in many forms.

[Bagwan]

Nico had under steer in Monaco qualifying a couple of years ago and did not slide sideways but went completely in a straight line. Loss of traction comes in many forms.

So , you are calling it "revenge understeer" ?

[jens]

I wouldn't even entertain these conspiracy theorists to be honest. It's nothing other than dumb stupidity to suggest that a team would invest 300 million a year only to sabotage one of their cars.

Yeah, that's true. If it turned out a team sabotages their own cars, the company would lose its integrity and wouldn't be taken seriously.

Take it from the personnel point of view. You are a designer, an engineer, a mechanic. You waste countless of hours of preparing that car and then somebody says "sorry, all the work you did is useless, because we don't like the #2 driver we hired and want to take some bits off the car again." No serious person would like to work like that.

[Bagwan]

Yeah, that's true. If it turned out a team sabotages their own cars, the company would lose its integrity and wouldn't be taken seriously.

Take it from the personnel point of view. You are a designer, an engineer, a mechanic. You waste countless of hours of preparing that car and then somebody says "sorry, all the work you did is useless, because we don't like the #2 driver we hired and want to take some bits off the car again." No serious person would like to work like that.

On the other hand , jens , not that it applies in this situation , but it's not that hard to imagine a mechanic or an engineer not working quite as hard as they might for a driver that slags his team , though , is it ?

And , if they've got the edge , it's not hard to imagine them even turning both of them down just a little , to give the others a perception of chance , even if it's not real .
They had a lot of running way out front , where you don't get the coverage , and they've also seen what being too fast can do to the popularity of a team .
Win too much and people want you beaten .

When a little tape can make you defenseless , your team can make a difference .
A close race is what we all want , isn't it ?

[henners88]

So , you are calling it "revenge understeer" ?

No, I'm calling it an 'identical incident' where 2 drivers experience the same type of loss of traction.

What has revenge got to do with it?

[henners88]

On the other hand , jens , not that it applies in this situation , but it's not that hard to imagine a mechanic or an engineer not working quite as hard as they might for a driver that slags his team , though , is it ?
If that were the case both Lewis and Nico would have lost the respect of the team long ago. They've both been frustrated in the past.

Whenever Hamilton is in the discussion you never fail to come across as rather bitter I have to say.

[Bagwan]

No, I'm calling it an 'identical incident' where 2 drivers experience the same type of loss of traction.

What has revenge got to do with it?

I thought you were referring to Nico going down the exit road in qualifying being the wrong that Lewis was
somehow righting here .
I took it that you were saying that the "understeer" was not really present , just as you believe that Nico's was feigned as well .

Perhaps I got that wrong .
Sorry if that's the case , but what did you mean if it wasn't that ?

[Bagwan]

If that were the case both Lewis and Nico would have lost the respect of the team long ago. They've both been frustrated in the past.

Whenever Hamilton is in the discussion you never fail to come across as rather bitter I have to say.

"not that it applies in this situation" is important to notice in my post .

I'm glad I could help you get that thing about me being bitter off your chest .
Any time I can help you that way is just fine with me .

[henners88]

"not that it applies in this situation" is important to notice in my post .

I'm glad I could help you get that thing about me being bitter off your chest .
Any time I can help you that way is just fine with me .
Well I'm sure I'm not alone to be honest mate.

It's reached a point where Hamilton could be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize and predictably yourself and DJ would be here spinning something negative. It just seems like roles have reversed since the old days where you were peace maker and a figure here of impartiality.

[henners88]

I thought you were referring to Nico going down the exit road in qualifying being the wrong that Lewis was
somehow righting here .
I took it that you were saying that the "understeer" was not really present , just as you believe that Nico's was feigned as well .

Perhaps I got that wrong .
Sorry if that's the case , but what did you mean if it wasn't that ?
I meant what I said in my reply to you. Two drivers experiencing the same type of loss of traction. No malice or intent. I'm not the one here trying to add spin to it.

[Stan Reid]

I expect Nico will do a lot better after they finish trying to make up for Hitler.

[Bagwan]

I meant what I said in my reply to you. Two drivers experiencing the same type of loss of traction. No malice or intent. I'm not the one here trying to add spin to it.

Honestly , what did you mean , then ?

How do the two incidents relate ?

[Bagwan]

Well I'm sure I'm not alone to be honest mate.

It's reached a point where Hamilton could be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize and predictably yourself and DJ would be here spinning something negative. It just seems like roles have reversed since the old days where you were peace maker and a figure here of impartiality.

I am quite sure you aren't alone in thinking that .

I started us talking about the start of the race , and whether a move was legal .
One driver was angry , another was sort of sorry , and the team principal was shaking his head .

Was this wrong ?
Should we not debate such things ?

[henners88]

Honestly , what did you mean , then ?

How do the two incidents relate ?
The drivers both experienced under steer and went straight on. Nico ended up in an escape road at Monaco and Lewis ended up nearly crashing into Nico.

[henners88]

I am quite sure you aren't alone in thinking that .

I started us talking about the start of the race , and whether a move was legal .
One driver was angry , another was sort of sorry , and the team principal was shaking his head .

Was this wrong ?
Should we not debate such things ?
The insinuation that Lewis deliberately went wide to force Nico onto the grass was made. A move can only be illegal if it was done deliberately IMO.

[Bagwan]

The insinuation that Lewis deliberately went wide to force Nico onto the grass was made. A move can only be illegal if it was done deliberately IMO.

He said it wasn't intentional and that's fine .
But , he did slide into Nico , did he not ?

You see , he admitted as much , himself .
But , I don't see being out of control because you are attempting to hold position as being a decent enough reason to get away with destroying another driver's race .
That's kind of the harshest way of looking at it , but really just another way of saying that it wasn't intentional , but I had some understeer and nudged my team mate off .
Sure , we can have a little wheel banging , but if you've got someone right beside you , don't you have to expect to have to allow him room ?

[Starter]

Sure , we can have a little wheel banging , but if you've got someone right beside you , don't you have to expect to have to allow him room ?
In the first turn of the first lap? None of these guys are going to give room unless they are forced to. And Nico's race wasn't ruined by that. His car, based on qualifying, should have been fully capable of getting back into the fight.

[Bagwan]

In the first turn of the first lap? None of these guys are going to give room unless they are forced to. And Nico's race wasn't ruined by that. His car, based on qualifying, should have been fully capable of getting back into the fight.

There was hardly going to be a protest , given it was his team mate , but they are required to leave room in the regulations , aren't they ?

And , the Merc is well known to be difficult in traffic , and lightning fast in clean air .

[henners88]

He said it wasn't intentional and that's fine .
But , he did slide into Nico , did he not ?

You see , he admitted as much , himself .
But , I don't see being out of control because you are attempting to hold position as being a decent enough reason to get away with destroying another driver's race .
That's kind of the harshest way of looking at it , but really just another way of saying that it wasn't intentional , but I had some understeer and nudged my team mate off .
Sure , we can have a little wheel banging , but if you've got someone right beside you , don't you have to expect to have to allow him room ?
It's racing and we've seen this happen at turn 1 in Canada so many times. It wasn't intentional and I'm sure Nico would pick a different line in hindsight. Nothing can be done about this sort of thing unless stewards start dishing out penalties and nobody wants that.

I don't think you can penalise a driver for not giving room when he unintentionally goes wide in a car that's experienced a momentary loss of traction. That sort of penalty is reserved for drivers who deliberately push opponents off the race track. You also could not penalise Nico in this instance for cutting the chicane.

[Mia 01]

Race incidents happens, at the start Moore often but Moore seldom between teammates. Nico and Lewis has a habit of it, I give the blame to Lewis 80/20.

[henners88]

Race incidents happens, at the start Moore often but Moore seldom between teammates. Nico and Lewis has a habit of it, I give the blame to Lewis 80/20.
Live and Let Die I say!!

[Bagwan]

It's racing and we've seen this happen at turn 1 in Canada so many times. It wasn't intentional and I'm sure Nico would pick a different line in hindsight. Nothing can be done about this sort of thing unless stewards start dishing out penalties and nobody wants that.

I don't think you can penalise a driver for not giving room when he unintentionally goes wide in a car that's experienced a momentary loss of traction. That sort of penalty is reserved for drivers who deliberately push opponents off the race track. You also could not penalise Nico in this instance for cutting the chicane.

After conceding he was angry at the time , then proclaiming it just hard racing , he said it was his job to see that he came out on top in situations like that one .
That says to me that , rather than picking a different line , he'd hold position on the outside of that turn if he had it to do again .

When you go around the outside , you are gunning for the inside of the next bend .
If you can get all the way to beside your rival early enough that he can see you , you are , by virtue of your now legitimate claim to that space , forcing him to take a tighter line .

Very simply , he did not slow down enough to make the corner inside a rival attempting to make a pass .
He made a mistake , sliding , and took off his rival .


If you look back through these discussions that we've had about Lewis , it is this issue about which we've had the most disagreement .
Lewis believes , as he's stated so a number of times , that he has right to the corner if he's on the inside .

I don't believe it's quite that simple .

[AndyL]

To me it seems like a pretty normal racing occurrence. If you're trying to hang it round the outside on the exit of a corner, and you haven't got the move done, you shouldn't be surprised if the other guy takes the normal racing line and shows you to the stripe.

[Bagwan]

To me it seems like a pretty normal racing occurrence. If you're trying to hang it round the outside on the exit of a corner, and you haven't got the move done, you shouldn't be surprised if the other guy takes the normal racing line and shows you to the stripe.

Perhaps the question would be , then , "when is the move done ?" , Andy .

I get what you're saying .
But , he was even with him , so doesn't he deserve equal space at that point ?
It can't be that Lewis didn't know he was there .

It's maybe more like he disregarded that he was there , assuming the corner was his , because he was on the inside .

[AndyL]

Perhaps the question would be , then , "when is the move done ?" , Andy .

I get what you're saying .
But , he was even with him , so doesn't he deserve equal space at that point ?
It can't be that Lewis didn't know he was there .

It's maybe more like he disregarded that he was there , assuming the corner was his , because he was on the inside .


I think Lewis disregarded that Nico was there because he knew he was in the stronger position. If the guy on the inside maintains his racing line, the guy on the outside has 3 alternatives: back off and drop behind, run off the track, or hold his line and as a result probably collide and get pushed off the track. You're always going to be in a weak position trying to make a move around the outside like that. Sure, try it, and if it comes off you're a hero, but you can't really complain if it doesn't.

I'd say the move is done when it's no longer possible for the guy on the inside to show you to the stripe.

[Big Ben]

I think Lewis disregarded that Nico was there because he knew he was in the stronger position. If the guy on the inside maintains his racing line, the guy on the outside has 3 alternatives: back off and drop behind, run off the track, or hold his line and as a result probably collide and get pushed off the track. You're always going to be in a weak position trying to make a move around the outside like that. Sure, try it, and if it comes off you're a hero, but you can't really complain if it doesn't.

I'd say the move is done when it's no longer possible for the guy on the inside to show you to the stripe.
That is one handy random 'rule' you made up there :laugh:

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[Bagwan]

I think Lewis disregarded that Nico was there because he knew he was in the stronger position. If the guy on the inside maintains his racing line, the guy on the outside has 3 alternatives: back off and drop behind, run off the track, or hold his line and as a result probably collide and get pushed off the track. You're always going to be in a weak position trying to make a move around the outside like that. Sure, try it, and if it comes off you're a hero, but you can't really complain if it doesn't.

I'd say the move is done when it's no longer possible for the guy on the inside to show you to the stripe.

The problem is , though , that the "stronger position" was only in his head by the time Nico was fully along side , which was pretty early in the scenario .
You're right that he might have been seen as heroic , had he pulled it off , but I think it would have been more a case of them both being lauded for close , tight racing , had they both come out of the corner together and on track .

As Toto mentioned , they've talked about this behavior a lot , and this incident will receive the same treatment .
And , I think it's a more necessary step than ever , when Nico seems to be saying he won't lose the position in the same way again .


Think , perhaps of the inside "dive-bomb" pass attempt , where a guy slides through and punts the other .
He's trying to brake later , overspeed , inside .
In that kind of scenario , the counter is to get him to outbrake himself on the inside , ducking behind as he goes by .
To counter when you know he is over your speed , by just driving into the space is not heroic at all , but stupid , and race ending in most cases .

But when you can get all the way along side him , at roughly the same speed , you should be able to be assume that both of you know the speed of an identical car must be less on the inside if the car on the outside of the turn is going at it's maximum speed for the conditions .
Had Rosberg slid , himself , he would have no beef at all , since he , too , would have been beyond the point of adhesion and not in complete control as well .

But , since the regs state that he need only have a significant portion of his wing along side the car in front , as per the Barcelona ruling , to be able to claim a portion of the track that was a car width , he has a right to feel a little put out .

If it were me making the rules , the point at which I would blame the guy ahead would be when he can see the car beside him . At this point , with the cars designed the way they are , that seems to be more like where the front wing of the guy behind breaks the plane of the driver's visor as he looks straight ahead .

As it is now , though , it's any piece of his front wing beside the wheel merits a claim to space .

[henners88]

It ended up being a good move by Lewis despite the loss of traction. He held the racing line and Nico was placed in the situation where he had to decide how to avoid contact.

Hamilton should be applauded for a gutsy move IMO. Well he was I suppose.

[Zico]

I have no doubts that Nico absolutely meant to do what he did at Monaco when he went down that escape road. Premeditated.

I still see that as being very different from Hamilton risking hitting Nico with his move and forcing him off the track. This was more a heat of the moment decision.

Why did the FIA not sanction him? Maybe because as team mates it is a team matter? Or more likely they just see it as a racing incident..

Ric made a huge dive under braking on Seb the other week with Seb taking evasive action to avoid the collision, naturally he wasn't happy at the time but later admitted he would have tried it himself if the roles were reversed.

As Senna once said, when you no longer go for the gap you are no longer a racing driver..

[Starter]

The race is over, the points final. No actions taken by the stewards. It is now officially ancient history. Time to move on to the next race. Dead horse doesn't taste good no matter how you barbecue it.

[Big Ben]

We're here to flog it, not to taste it

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[Tazio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsiLIoGQ2V0
:angel:
Judging from the on board video from NRs car it can only be (IMHO) a defensive maneuver by The Boss, or he simply lost adhesion. Either way it was a bad place to put yourself, if you're Nico at the first corner of a race, but that's racing. The stewards saw no reason than to (and I believe rightly so) judge it as anything more than a racing incident!

[AndyL]

That is one handy random 'rule' you made up there :laugh:

It's not a "rule", just a recognition of reality. The job is done when the job is done. The pass is completed when the guy you're passing can no longer prevent you passing. There are too many rules about passing. It's to the credit of the stewards that they decided not to get involved in this incident.


The problem is , though , that the "stronger position" was only in his head by the time Nico was fully along side , which was pretty early in the scenario .

Clearly it was not just in his head, since after the contact it was Nico who ended up off track and losing places, not Lewis.

[Bagwan]

It's not a "rule", just a recognition of reality. The job is done when the job is done. The pass is completed when the guy you're passing can no longer prevent you passing. There are too many rules about passing. It's to the credit of the stewards that they decided not to get involved in this incident.



Clearly it was not just in his head, since after the contact it was Nico who ended up off track and losing places, not Lewis.

Why was there contact ?
It was because Lewis was sliding , thus , not in complete control .

It's a lucky thing he did decide to duck out or they both likely would have been done .


A question comes to mind .
If Lewis had not expressed that he experienced oversteer , would the incident be seen differently by all you guys ?

[Starter]

Not by me. Hard racing by two guys who both want the championship.

[yodasarmpit]

The worst thing about the whole first corner incident was the way Nico dangerously rejoined the track, I fully expected there to be a penalty - but non was forthcoming.

[henners88]

Under steer or not it was a hard but fair move.

I remember in Spain it was said here that Lewis was driving into a disappearing wedge. Well this was a much slower version of that with Nico. He had time to react and did so. He lost out fair and square.

[Bagwan]

The worst thing about the whole first corner incident was the way Nico dangerously rejoined the track, I fully expected there to be a penalty - but non was forthcoming.

It did look a bit sketchy , but as the drivers who he drove in with all passed him because they had gotten the normal launch from farther back , none were likely to protest , and didn't .
He got passed on both sides , so at least he wasn't weaving around .

You're right , though , that launching right across didn't look too cool .
I was surprised that he didn't stay to the right a little longer on rejoining , myself .

I might have to have another look at that one .

[Matti]

Verstappen vs Rosberg | Canada GP 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMWF4mszvdo&ab_channel=Carmovie

[N. Jones]

Lewis will tell the media he will retire when he wins one more championship?

[Bagwan]

Lewis will tell the media he will retire when he wins one more championship?

What ?
Where am I ?

[Zico]

Ferrari have allegedly solved their engine reliability issue and will be able to run the full power mode, +30bhp compared to the 2022 unit... but Valteri Bottas won't be driving it.