Rally Sweden's future [Archive]

Sulland

16th May 2016, 14:07

The only winter rally on the calendar is struggeling to find stable winter conditions, and needs to come up with a robust plan to FIA.

Two countys north of Värmland are the candidates.
Dalarna, with Falun or Mora as Hq location and base. I Guess they have enough hotel capasity.
Further north there is Jämtland, with Østersund as Hq. Additional Hotel capasity in Åre.

Looking at snow data, they need to move north, question is how far?
http://www.smhi.se/klimatdata/meteorologi/sno

What do you think is the best option long term?

BleAivano

16th May 2016, 14:35

They are in a difficult situation. They have to move to be able to fulfil the snow safe guarantee but moving might also risk loosing allot of
Värmland specific sponsorships/partnerships from local tourist boards / companies and etc in Värmland.

Falun-Borlänge-Mora have some hotels for sure (especially in Tällberg) but the question is the same for them as for Värmland,
can they guarantee availability and price levels for three consecutive years? Then the next question is if their is enough roads available?
If you want to be more snow safe, you have to have have the stages in the western part of Dalarna close to the border to Norway and Värmland
which well over 100km away from Falun (much closer to Mora though). However there aren't that many roads in the area (Basically only E45 and E16)
it would be very crowded in these two roads.

Rallyper

16th May 2016, 16:49

Not a new problem for any organizer. Falun/Borlänge/Rättvik/Tällberg should be enough hospitality. Stages couldn´t be a problem in the region. Even possibilties having stages north of Sandviken.

Sulland

12th February 2020, 08:45

As it looks now, to have safe winter conditions as FIA more or less demands, it looks like they have to go north to at least Østersund, maybe even further north.

But hopefully the 2020 winter is warmer and more wet than the new norm.

AndyRAC

12th February 2020, 10:25

Well, you can't continue to have a 'will it - won't it' run almost every year, hoping the snow and cold turns up; they need to be proactive. If that means moving from Sweden, then so be it; which would be sad for the sport. But, there are surely towns further north who would be interested in hosting the WRC - and if there aren't, then it's not a great reflection on our sport.
I'd rather it stayed in Sweden, but maybe a North American round seriously needs to be looked at; snow doesn't seem to be an issue up there.

Crazy J

12th February 2020, 10:58

Maybe a split rally between Sweden and Norway in area of Kiruna - Narvik - Tromso. They might have snow up there.

mknight

12th February 2020, 11:45

Jeez both of you are like completely off. As I wrote in the rally Sweden thread even right now with the warmest January ever recorded there are perfect winter conditions just 1 hour drive north of the current stages.

Sure to ensure stable winter conditions they should move the stages a bit north in the short term (think they have a deal for next 2? years) and possibly further north to around Østersund after that.

But moving to another continent or 1500 km just because there isn't snow exactly where the stages are is nuts.

AnttiL

12th February 2020, 11:59

Is the current deal for arranging the rally with Sweden's ASN or the rally organization? If the latter, they cannot move that far.

Fast Eddie WRC

12th February 2020, 15:43

BleAivano

12th February 2020, 15:48

Is the current deal for arranging the rally with Sweden's ASN or the rally organization? If the latter, they cannot move that far.

I am quite sure that the contract is with the organiser. However if the contract says "guaranteed winter conditions" (or something similar) then I would assume that the promoter can breach the contract due to the contractaded obligation not being fulfilled.

Rallyper

12th February 2020, 16:00

The only issue I read about moving the rally further north in Sweden is that its more hilly there and a lot of people already holiday in the area for skiing. Therefore there may be an issue in finding enough hotel beds for the rally fans visiting.

No. Not more hilly in Östersund or Umeå (which city would be most perfect) than Värmland.

Not moving bcs of Värmland sponsors seems a bit silly. There should be sponsors for such big event. I would say Östersund doesn´t affect skiing season for Åre if they have Rally Sweden in week 5 or 6.

skarderud

12th February 2020, 16:43

20km north of Lillehammer today.
Thats a little north of the northest stages under Rally Norway some years ago.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200212/c93a3397dbe25042ed9064122df3621f.jpg

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Rallyper

12th February 2020, 16:46

Sure looks fine. But rally should stay in Sweden...

BleAivano

12th February 2020, 16:59

Sure looks fine. But rally should stay in Sweden...

Agree. We have lots of nice roads as well.

Current snow depths in Sweden.

https://i.imgur.com/KQBJqRY.png

cali

12th February 2020, 17:07

Sure looks fine. But rally should stay in Sweden...Per, with all due respect...why???

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AnttiL

12th February 2020, 17:45

I am quite sure that the contract is with the organiser. However if the contract says "guaranteed winter conditions" (or something similar) then I would assume that the promoter can breach the contract due to the contractaded obligation not being fulfilled.

Yeah. In that case though I would assume the winter rally slot would become open for any country.

Rallyper

12th February 2020, 17:45

Per, with all due respect...why???

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I shouldn´t even answer, but I feel needed to do;

Because Rally Sweden is an institution like several other rallies in the WRC. Norway isn´t. Sweden has snow and winter conditions. Just change place for HQ.
Would you say same about Rally Finland?

denkimi

12th February 2020, 20:11

I shouldn´t even answer, but I feel needed to do;

Because Rally Sweden is an institution like several other rallies in the WRC. Norway isn´t. Sweden has snow and winter conditions. Just change place for HQ.
Would you say same about Rally Finland?
many rallies have been institutes in the past. monte, greece, new zealand, safari, corsica, ...

they all got dropped and replaced by others at one time. sweden is no exception.

if they can't guarantee snow then maybe it's time to move on from sweden as the snow rally.

cali

12th February 2020, 21:09

I shouldn´t even answer, but I feel needed to do;

Because Rally Sweden is an institution like several other rallies in the WRC. Norway isn´t. Sweden has snow and winter conditions. Just change place for HQ.
Would you say same about Rally Finland?So it's only because of history and you take it granted that this slot is given to Sweden by merit.
Not so good arguements considering we have had this road conditions drama for at least 20 years now.

Move it to north or leave it or give it to someone else who has the conditions guaranteed simple as that. As much I love this side of Sweden, it's nature and roads it's not gonna cut it in the future.

Btw it's quite incorrect to ask if we should consider dropping Jyväskylä because they have been fine as long as we remember.

Your really only arguement is because you are swedish you feel entitled to have this rally. But others are fed up with this yearly weather drama and because of this I have dropped Sweden as one of my yearly rallies to spectate.

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deephouse

13th February 2020, 12:47

I quite like Sweden. It's not just snow and then put every country who has it. It's combination of three things. Snow, fast roads and special stage section called Colin's Crest (there is also intern competion of the biggest jump every year). Every event of this kind have that kind of world known section. Every part of Sweden or any other country don't have many fast roads.

Let's face it. How many events could replace Sweden and how many are actually take the bid to join the WRC for a full snow event. That's right, only Canada. But as people say that are just wishes from few people not any kind of government or any major sponsor.

Only country that have fast roads and also a lot of snow (avg. speed around 130km/h or more) are Finland but they kinda have summer date and in genes it's all gravel rally.

Better to find gravel rally alternatives since there is 80% events on calendar and every year they just increase that number of expense of tarmac ones.

Best solution is moving HQ but still stays in Sweden.

BleAivano

13th February 2020, 15:24

So it's only because of history and you take it granted that this slot is given to Sweden by merit.
Not so good arguements considering we have had this road conditions drama for at least 20 years now.

Move it to north or leave it or give it to someone else who has the conditions guaranteed simple as that. As much I love this side of Sweden, it's nature and roads it's not gonna cut it in the future.

Btw it's quite incorrect to ask if we should consider dropping Jyväskylä because they have been fine as long as we remember.

Your really only arguement is because you are swedish you feel entitled to have this rally. But others are fed up with this yearly weather drama and because of this I have dropped Sweden as one of my yearly rallies to spectate.

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The difference is that Finland has it much easier since they don't have to provide any certain conditions like snow and ice. They only need to provide gravel roads which isn't a problem in the summer.

Anyway my first option would be to try to skip moving outside Sweden and choose a northern more location. However I don't think that it will happen as long as
Glenn Olsson is running the rally as he and his organisation/sponsors are very Karlstad/Värmland centric.

Franky

13th February 2020, 16:34

Anyway my first option would be to try to skip moving outside Sweden and choose a northern more location. However I don't think that it will happen as long as
Glenn Olsson is running the rally as he and his organisation/sponsors are very Karlstad/Värmland centric.

Hopefully the risk of getting the boot from calendar will make them look for better alternatives.

Myrvold

13th February 2020, 16:40

Don't need to move it far. Just been in my hometown, Elverum, Norway. 70-80km from Finnskogen. And while it's far from an amazing winter here it's snow, ice and banks. Even on the roads thats in daily use around schools etc.

Also as we have seen in testing, there are multiple snowy, icy roads in the area fairly near Torsby.

BleAivano

13th February 2020, 17:15

Hopefully the risk of getting the boot from calendar will make them look for better alternatives.

I hope so too.

Doon

13th February 2020, 18:02

There is no doubt that the WRC needs a winter rally. A snow/ice event brings a unique element to the calendar. What has always amazed me is that a tyre manufacturer essential develops a specific tyre which will only be used in one round of the WRC.

The current situation is a crisis. The manufacturers and tyre suppliers sign up and invest large sums of money, and almost need to have a guarantee that a winter rally will run in adequate, not necessarily perfect conditions. The current conditions are nowhere near adequate. It's not a knee-jerk reaction either, the rally organisers have "crossed their fingers" many times before in the weeks leading up to the rally. They were bound to get bitten. Rally Sweden is the best event I've ever visited, but the scenes this week are saddening.

The event needs to move north if it wants to survive, manufacturers will soon be tired of the uncertainty (they probably are already). Is there any reason why two winter events can't run again. The WRC can be shortsighted and nostalgic at times. If they want to expand and grow the sport they must crack North America. Even if the appetite isn't currently there in North America, running an event in somewhere like Montreal would have the potential to draw of millions, and the road conditions at this time of year will almost certainly be adequate. F1 fans flock to Montreal for the GP, so why can't WRC do the same. I can't see the manufacturers thinking that it's a bad move in terms of exposure.

EstWRC

15th February 2020, 16:45

TODT DECLARES SNOW-LESS SWEDEN WON’T BE REPEATED
FIA PRESIDENT MAKES CLEAR THERE HAVE TO BE CHANGES

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/todt-declares-snow-less-sweden-wont-be-repeated/

mknight

15th February 2020, 17:58

HKSjbg

15th February 2020, 21:43

Likenås

*Likenäs 🙂

Fast Eddie WRC

15th February 2020, 22:08

Todt keen on USA return...

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/video-fia-president-keen-wrc-returns-to-usa

Hmmmm... and all this new WRC coverage from US-based Dirtfish is just a co-incidence ?

skarderud

15th February 2020, 22:18

Off course they should have a north american rally, but will americans understand this sport? They actally think someone driving in circles with a carburettor is a exiting motorsport.....

It is probably to complicated for them, maybe if they put it in some of the "scandinavian" states up north or canada?

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Gregor-y

16th February 2020, 02:03

Rally's got a decent following in the US; bigger than Mexico and with more clubmen competitors, if more expensive and with higher insurance costs and more regulation. Olympus would be a long way to go, however.

The Great Northern Railway built their transcontinental line using a northern route and recruited heavily in Scandinavia to set up farms along the route. Those areas of Wisconsin, Minnesota, the Dakotas and Montana can be hard to get to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_Railway_(U.S.)

cali

16th February 2020, 04:52

Read somewhere that that WRC+ has most subscribers from North America.

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BleAivano

16th February 2020, 07:35

Your capslock is broken it seems....

Anyway he's telling them to move stages.

I guess for next year they will keep Likenås and probably Hof-Finnskog and try to move other stages further north.

Good bye to Colin's crest.

Well that is what people have been saying for years, hopefully the organisers will listen this time-

IMO a Superspecial at Höljes (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Finnskoga+Motorklubb/@60.9058727,12.5773658,3546m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x46428185bd2aab65:0x 4ce0dd6824b25198!2s680+60+Bran%C3%A4s!3b1!8m2!3d60 .6622426!4d12.9661694!3m4!1s0x4669daa3b3667137:0x2 9a6bb95f8cadcea!8m2!3d60.9164979!4d12.5590789) could replace Karlstad SSS. There are also claimed to be fine snowy roads in the Lima area (https://www.google.com/maps/place/780+64+Lima/@60.9371122,13.3559169,1489m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x46428185bd2aab6 5:0x4ce0dd6824b25198!2s680+60+Bran%C3%A4s!3b1!8m2! 3d60.6622426!4d12.9661694!3m4!1s0x4668398338e7a6ed :0xa034509521107f0!8m2!3d60.9371039!4d13.360405) but according to SMHI snow depth reports (https://www.smhi.se/vadret/vadret-i-sverige/observationer#ws=wpt-a,proxy=wpt-a,tab=vader,param=s) it's only about 10 cm snow in the area.
However both Höljes and Lima are quite far from Karlstad. I think it might be hard to just move some stages a bit further north. The Mora area also doesn't have any snow this year.
To get really snow safe (according to this year's conditions) then you probably have to go as far north as Särna-Idre-Gördalen area (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Mora/S%C3%A4rna/Idre/G%C3%B6rdalen/@61.5717831,13.2450581,132107m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m26!4m25!1m5!1m1!1s0x4667db4479a069 a5:0x14f914049025c5f9!2m2!1d14.537003!2d61.004878! 1m5!1m1!1s0x4668634444e1e5f5:0x2659d089d00b7a98!2m 2!1d13.1258039!2d61.6948409!1m5!1m1!1s0x4669159e18 c7cba7:0xb285411ec00c10e2!2m2!1d12.7258736!2d61.85 79343!1m5!1m1!1s0x4669740882738e0b:0x33f111f4dd1f0 60!2m2!1d12.494097!2d61.5883078!3e0) but perhaps difficult to find stages/accommodation/suitable HQ area.
In that case probably better to move the entire rally to Östersund/Umeå area due to better public transport availability with trains and airports.

Sulland

16th February 2020, 09:55

the sniper

16th February 2020, 10:23

Read somewhere that that WRC+ has most subscribers from North America.

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Yeah I remember that, it was in an official WRC document. That was a surprise, but maybe indicative of a relatively low number of subscriber overall.

I think we lose perspective with the USA. No doubt rallying there is very much a minority sport, but even if only 0.1% of the population are (or potentially are) rally fans , that's 300,000+ people. If you were to run the Olympus Rally, even if you were only able to make a bit of an impact in the local area, the population in Washington state alone is 7.5m, which is more than the population of New Zealand or Finland, and far bigger than Sardinia! There's still a car culture in the US which will be far harder to kill than in Europe. Plus when you watch the Subaru ARA coverage, there does seem to be a 'scene' following the sport over there. The You Tube show does relatively good numbers.

Not that this helps the snow rally situation, but Dirtfish Olympus Rally does have a nice ring to it. The event has nice heritage. I'd be very tempted to travel over from the UK to spectate on it as a WRC event. Easy/safe one for international visitors.

Sulland

16th February 2020, 11:53

The Dirtfish team have a plan!
It will end with a WRC round in North America!

Yeah I remember that, it was in an official WRC document. That was a surprise, but maybe indicative of a relatively low number of subscriber overall.

I think we lose perspective with the USA. No doubt rallying there is very much a minority sport, but even if only 0.1% of the population are (or potentially are) rally fans , that's 300,000+ people. If you were to run the Olympus Rally, even if you were only able to make a bit of an impact in the local area, the population in Washington state alone is 7.5m, which is more than the population of New Zealand or Finland, and far bigger than Sardinia! There's still a car culture in the US which will be far harder to kill than in Europe. Plus when you watch the Subaru ARA coverage, there does seem to be a 'scene' following the sport over there. The You Tube show does relatively good numbers.

Not that this helps the snow rally situation, but Dirtfish Olympus Rally does have a nice ring to it. The event has nice heritage. I'd be very tempted to travel over from the UK to spectate on it as a WRC event. Easy/safe one for international visitors.

BleAivano

16th February 2020, 12:22

Rally Sweden need to be able to more or less guarantee snow/ice as I read mr Todt. Otherwise they are axed.

That means moving out of Värmland and go north and close to the norwegian border, to have some altitude, and stabile cold weather.

They have basically two choices. Move a bit further north or go for a big move. If the latter the only realistic choices IMO are Österstund or Umeå.
It doesn't necessarily have to be close to the Norwegian border or at an large altitude. Vännas has plenty of snow and is only 200 meter above sea level.

Also about the RS's partners (sponsors) most of the major sponsors have no connection to Värmland area. Swecon (listed first) are based in my home city,
some 300 km east of the rally area. The other tow major partner Toyota Sverige and Skruvat are both based in Stockholm.

Some of the other partners/suppliers are based in Värmland but far from all of them.

Oliverk

16th February 2020, 12:33

In all reality who gives a s**t where the sponors are from? I don't. It is rally Sweden not rally Värmland or whatever.
Are these companies really so pissed when the rally moves away from their village?

tommeke_B

16th February 2020, 12:52

Well, if they don't manage to find the money to organize the rally anymore, people will give a shit.

Rally Power

16th February 2020, 13:17

Well, if they don't manage to find the money to organize the rally anymore, people will give a shit.

Sweden isn’t the Bangladesh or Uganda (with due respect); it’s a country with a rich rally heritage and a strong economy; that should be enough for the organizers to move the event to the north and avoid the weather drama, once for all.

Sulland

16th February 2020, 13:57

They have basically two choices. Move a bit further north or go for a big move. If the latter the only realistic choices IMO are Österstund or Umeå.
It doesn't necessarily have to be close to the Norwegian border or at an large altitude. Vännas has plenty of snow and is only 200 meter above sea level.

Also about the RS's partners (sponsors) most of the major sponsors have no connection to Värmland area. Swecon (listed first) are based in my home city,
some 300 km east of the rally area. The other tow major partner Toyota Sverige and Skruvat are both based in Stockholm.

Some of the other partners/suppliers are based in Värmland but far from all of them.

If the swedes that know SS road potentials and Hotel capasity around the Østersund and Umeå areas, what area of the two would you choose?

BleAivano

17th February 2020, 15:21

If the swedes that know SS road potentials and Hotel capasity around the Østersund and Umeå areas, what area of the two would you choose?

Österund incar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxhBENKiR5g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIpYNEWTxIk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjQmwPwW6sA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Eh-4aZ-_Vs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsyqq-UB31A

Vännäs incar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzuHcEA4iuY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ztxvd71knU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtupE3P-7oI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NjQqmmbESc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2QsWrSJPyk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhTVwfGMeKE

Will probably me more incar after next week's Rally-SM round in Vännäs.

Curvy forest roads like most other rallies in Sweden. ;)

EstWRC

22nd February 2020, 16:31

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdV0sxXcucw

Fast Eddie WRC

25th February 2020, 11:03

Interesting comments by Colin Clark on this subject on his recent KT: https://youtu.be/wwZOqL74dFo

AnttiL

23rd March 2020, 09:12

rallyfiend

23rd March 2020, 09:27

https://yle.fi/urheilu/3-11270791

Apparently Jämtland's motor club is trying to get the rally next year to Östersund. They claim to have 950 km roads suitable for stages within a 60 km radius. They have three options for a route.

I don’t think many people have doubted the ability to hold the rally there from a roads point of view.

It’s just a question of who will pay for it....

AnttiL

23rd March 2020, 09:37

And also, the question if Värmland has the rights for the two following years or if Sweden's ASN can change who organizes their WRC event already for next year.

(the article doesn't talk about this, only my own thought)

Rallyper

23rd March 2020, 10:33

I think Swedish ASN isn´t that strong. Like in Finland to me AKK looks more integrated in Rally Finland, than Swedish Bilsportförbundet is to RS.

So in the end it comes up to Organizer in Värmland to adapt or not be sure of having the rally any longer.

(My thoughts)

tc10a

23rd March 2020, 12:08

This article is about an area even much more north:
https://www.pitea.se/press/Aktuellt/Naringsliv/fyra-norrbottenskommuner-aktuella-for-svenska-rallyt/

Rallyper

23rd March 2020, 14:29

This article is about an area even much more north:
https://www.pitea.se/press/Aktuellt/Naringsliv/fyra-norrbottenskommuner-aktuella-for-svenska-rallyt/

This came today!

Hmmm... organizer has invited them to host the rally. Interesting.

Sulland

23rd March 2020, 22:09

If correct, it is a smart move to go all the way to Norrbotten county, for real stable winter conditions!
They will for sure save the rally with such a move.

BleAivano

26th March 2020, 16:23

Article in DF https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/sweden-sourcing-new-location-torsby-set-for-2021-stay/

SubaruNorway

26th March 2020, 18:21

If correct, it is a smart move to go all the way to Norrbotten county, for real stable winter conditions!
They will for sure save the rally with such a move.

Financially also? Would guess they need more money from sponsors to run the event up there with less spectators probably. Nearly no motorsport that high north in Norway, Finland across the border is good i guess though.

Calculated my own fuel expenses to go up there in my own car for the whole event to at least 500€ with 13-14 hours to and from. Not an option renting a cheap FWD for me and shortest flight i could find is 1 stop 4 hours and 140€

Sulland

26th March 2020, 19:04

Financially also? Would guess they need more money from sponsors to run the event up there with less spectators probably. Nearly no motorsport that high north in Norway, Finland across the border is good i guess though.

Calculated my own fuel expenses to go up there in my own car for the whole event to at least 500€ with 13-14 hours to and from. Not an option renting a cheap FWD for me and shortest flight i could find is 1 stop 4 hours and 140€

Looks line Hq in Torsby in 21, and then I guess with remote service.
But hey, maybe 21 will be the snowseason of the decade! But I would not put money on it.

BleAivano

14th September 2020, 19:22

There are three candidates that have submitted application to be the new host of Rally Sweden. Österund, Umeå and Luleå (together with a few other smaller towns) are the three candidates.
Umeå is by far the biggest city of the three, almost 130'000 inhabitants. Umeå also hosted a very good SM-round this year but Östersund have done well too previous years. Luleå/Boden/Älvkarleby is,
for me atleast, a bit unknown when it comes to rally hosting. All three still have flights from/to Stockholm-Arlanda and/or Stockholm-Bromma.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/%C3%96stersund/Ume%C3%A5/Lule%C3%A5/@64.3477888,16.1548564,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m20!4m19!1m5!1m1!1s0x466fb846d4f930 91:0x4adec23d33cfdcde!2m2!1d14.6360681!2d63.176683 2!1m5!1m1!1s0x467c4e1b68add7f9:0x4034506de8c8560!2 m2!1d20.2630354!2d63.8258471!1m5!1m1!1s0x467f6314d 2e8b867:0x4034506de8c8620!2m2!1d22.1567026!2d65.58 4819!3e2

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/varmland/rallyts-flyttplaner-tar-tydligare-form

erikli2

15th September 2020, 09:49

Östersund has listed 43 possible stages within a 60 km radius from the city, with a total SS length of almost 1000 km. Their round in the Swedish Championship usually have really nice roads with big snow banks. The map of these stages along with some other information (in Swedish though) can be found in this (https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/Rally%20Sweden%20JH.pdf?token=AWyHWNSmhayj2dXTpgk_ 8EAqYh3-mdVqdOVoDXGzC5Dow4fovXZNwmdM5eY9_z7PvWoUEbxOPmuWcM _9jW88Wv5BZwNELVk3YxclOhm-53XU1L4Lg-UpCkh_LDy9zSj4pN6L9OWBRyV5aJfFE2Cc8eH8jGIr26kZ9TjT tZp2EC9MM5fcp17UOoJPQlM98YqDKHSnNCeiS3rByVZLl7vNk-u7)document.

EstWRC

15th September 2020, 10:04

Finally they are going into right direction with this. Should have happened years ago already.

Rallyper

15th September 2020, 10:12