Rally Italia Sardegna '16

[Rallyper]

every manufacturer won rallies this year apart from Ford... LOL.

Malicious, yes?

[raybak]

Prokop saying he won't be back to WRC. Not a happy camper:(

[N.O.T]

Prokop saying he won't be back to WRC. Not a happy camper:(

Perfect news for both sides... we will not have to stand him another year and he will have all the time in the world to enjoy Mcdonalds all day.

[AL14]

I don't know why but I feel like Latvala will make some mistake

[Rallyper]

Yeah, that would be nice for everyone, wouldn´t it?

[USER47]

Prokop saying he won't be back to WRC. Not a happy camper:(
Yeah, he was saying that since Mexico I believe. He knows he can't compete with the manufacturer teams and he's a bit tired of WRC. He said he might return to WRC2 where he has better chance to fight for good positions.

[Simmi]

Prokop saying he won't be back to WRC. Not a happy camper:(

I wonder if that decision was made before or after he got banged with a 5min penalty? Prokop would be a superb addition to the ERC.

[stefanvv]

That PS is sailing in the sand

[Rallyper]

Big congrat to Neuville winning Italia!!!

[N.O.T]

Very nice win for both Neuville and Hyundai... Lassie is back on the menu boys !!!!

[Mirek]

I wonder if that decision was made before or after he got banged with a 5min penalty? Prokop would be a superb addition to the ERC.

Long before the penalty. Meanwhile he bought a circuit GT Mercedes (which he used together with Kubica in 24h Monza) and started to build new own Dakar car for 2017. He isn't interested in ERC at all.

[USER47]

...which he used together with Kubica in 24h Monza...
Not Monza, but 12h Mugello.:)

[Simmi]

Seriously why do the WRC TV insist on showing championship standings after a power stage that are almost never correct!?

[Ucci]

Who would it thought at the beginning of the season that VW boys could not win three rallyes in the row??
Congrats to Neuville, Camilli and Tanak (limited by his tyre producer...).

[Eli]

I hope Sordo doesn't receive a penalty for his starting position (on the sand) in the power stage...Hope to see him win a rally this year. Very consistent, 4th place for the 4th time, well done Dani. BTW, if you have a rally which you would like to have a DNF, Poland is a good choice (since he will start in the N.10 Hyundai with Paddon taking his place).

[Mirek]

Who would it thought at the beginning of the season that VW boys could not win three rallyes in the row??

That's a good point actually. Everybody speaking about Ogier but there is also Latvala and Mikkelsen in the game...

[Zeakiwi]

Prokop saying he won't be back to WRC. Not a happy camper:(

Should Prokop team up with De Rooy in the Dakar trucks? Build a Skoda Kodiaq T1. Skoda R5 in ERC, etc

[mousti]

I wonder if that decision was made before or after he got banged with a 5min penalty? Prokop would be a superb addition to the ERC.

I agree, it's cheaper and it would be a new challenge for him, he definately would be a outsider to win the title.

[EightGear]

Seriously why do the WRC TV insist on showing championship standings after a power stage that are almost never correct!?
Even worse, they're showing rally results as well while there are loads of WRC2 coming trough to take top 10 overall positions.... Incompetence level +500.


Anyway, 5th different rally winner in a row now, very nice.

Nice to see Abbring take 2nd on the power stage too!

[RS]

Haha Kopecky "This stage was like Dakar, I feel too young to drive this type of stage"

[Mirek]

Should Prokop team up with De Rooy in the Dakar trucks? Build a Skoda Kodiaq T1. Skoda R5 in ERC, etc

I think he stays with Toyota but I'm not sure.

[RS]

I wonder if that decision was made before or after he got banged with a 5min penalty? Prokop would be a superb addition to the ERC.

Not convinced about that. He was often slower than Kopecky here whilst driving a WRCar...

[Simmi]

Not convinced about that. He was often slower than Kopecky here whilst driving a WRCar...

Not saying he'd win the championship but it's more suited to his level and would allow him to actually compete for wins. He'd also be a good benchmark for R5 drivers. Maybe he knows he'd get schooled I'm not sure. But when you're in his position and you're not enjoying it then there is zero reason to continue.

[RS]

Leg 3 times, Lappi!!

http://rally-base.com/2016/rally-italia-sardegna-2016/?leg=3

[Rallyper]

Leg 3 times, Lappi!!

http://rally-base.com/2016/rally-italia-sardegna-2016/?leg=3

Are you in Capito mode? Seriously?

[RS]

Are you in Capito mode? Seriously?

Would you say that if it was Tidemand? ;)

[Simmi]

I have to admit I'm pretty conflicted about the WRC at the moment.

If you ignore some of the nonsense being spouted by his team boss, I completely understand Ogier's frustrations and, like many on here, I think it's completely unfair being asked to sweep for two days. I'd like to see that regulation changed next year.

But.... damn, we've had five different rally winners in a row! I think that's the first time that's happened since 2001.

You can't ignore how good that is for the sport. The ability to tune in and not actually know who is going to win the event has been a distant memory for rally fans. I'm also enjoying following the events a lot more, but at the same time in the back of my mind I am aware that there's this artificial element to it.

So the big question is what is the bigger evil? Is it more important to have purity of competition than a more exciting show? Like I say I'm conflicted.

I guess for hardcore rally fans it's a case of how much do you allow yourself to enjoy this current format...

[RS]

I have to admit I'm pretty conflicted about the WRC at the moment.

If you ignore some of the nonsense being spouted by his team boss, I completely understand Ogier's frustrations and, like many on here, I think it's completely unfair being asked to sweep for two days. I'd like to see that regulation changed next year.

But.... damn, we've had five different rally winners in a row! I think that's the first time that's happened since 2001.

You can't ignore how good that is for the sport. The ability to tune in and not actually know who is going to win the event has been a distant memory for rally fans. I'm also enjoying following the events a lot more, but at the same time in the back of my mind I am aware that there's this artificial element to it.

So the big question is what is the bigger evil? Is it more important to have purity of competition than a more exciting show? Like I say I'm conflicted.

I guess for hardcore rally fans it's a case of how much do you allow yourself to enjoy this current format...

I would rather see a level playing field and different winners on merit.

[AndyRAC]

I saw some comments from Tiff Needell complaining that handicapping the best driver, and allowing others to win is a false excitement. Predictably, quite a few rally fans were outraged by his suggestion.

I agree with him; I don't have a problem with it in national/ club 'entertainment' series, I;e the BTCC. But in a serious World Championship, it has no place; Ballast, DRS, running first may all add 'excitement' but in my opinion it devalues the sport.

[PLuto]

Yeah, he was saying that since Mexico I believe. He knows he can't compete with the manufacturer teams and he's a bit tired of WRC. He said he might return to WRC2 where he has better chance to fight for good positions.

I think he will go out of rallysport...

[PLuto]

I wonder if that decision was made before or after he got banged with a 5min penalty?

Before. Decision was made during previous year...

[PLuto]

Prokop would be a superb addition to the ERC.

He will never go there. He was trying IRC without big success. He likes only WRC series, anything "lower" is under his dignity...

[PLuto]

Seriously why do the WRC TV insist on showing championship standings after a power stage that are almost never correct!?

I was also thinking about it, when I saw it. How they congratulate to Abbring also to points for being in top ten, which everybody average following the event must know, that it is nonsense...

[Ucci]

I have to admit I'm pretty conflicted about the WRC at the moment.

If you ignore some of the nonsense being spouted by his team boss, I completely understand Ogier's frustrations and, like many on here, I think it's completely unfair being asked to sweep for two days. I'd like to see that regulation changed next year.

But interesting-even if Ogier is not sweeping the stages (2nd run and 3rd day, he is not winning stages. Except PS...).

[stefanvv]

3rd day, he is not winning stages. Except PS...).

No point as there is no position to fight, only PS points

[rage82]

What a guy is that Camilli. In his only sixth event in WRC car ( "the crappy Fiesta") he's scoring top 3 times. And he has done only 8 events with R5 car in his career in 2015. Hope he can keep this steep line of progression.

Sent from my W200 using Tapatalk

[Simmi]

For sure we've seen Ogier adapt to his situation in the last few rounds. That 'win every stage at all costs' mentality isn't there.

[Eli]

Ogier can go about getting 2nds and 3rds for the rest of the year and he can still rap up this championship by the time we get to China.

[PLuto]

I agree, it's cheaper and it would be a new challenge for him, he definately would be a outsider to win the title.

I am afraid he is not looking for challenges in rallysport...

[PLuto]

I saw some comments from Tiff Needell complaining that handicapping the best driver, and allowing others to win is a false excitement. Predictably, quite a few rally fans were outraged by his suggestion.

I agree with him; I don't have a problem with it in national/ club 'entertainment' series, I;e the BTCC. But in a serious World Championship, it has no place; Ballast, DRS, running first may all add 'excitement' but in my opinion it devalues the sport.

In rallysport, it was in the past ALWAYS, that fastest drivers were going first (so they had disadvantage with sweeping positions). Only in modern WRC era they have started with reversing the order...

[PLuto]

New addition to notional times on SS 12 - today before midday, they have changed also time of Kruuda... Question is which times they will change tomorrow...

[Francis44]

A bit sad to see Prokop go, he seemed to enjoy himself all the time. After Portugal you could tell by his words that maybe he is a bit angry that the FIA wont allow all drivers to compete in a 2017 gen WRC, so maybe that's why he is leaving.

[PLuto]

A bit sad to see Prokop go, he seemed to enjoy himself all the time. After Portugal you could tell by his words that maybe he is a bit angry that the FIA wont allow all drivers to compete in a 2017 gen WRC, so maybe that's why he is leaving.

I dont think to that it is the main reason. He found that he has no chance to move up. He is little bit tired with WRC, he needs to have a new toy, to do something different. Thats why he is trying circuits or Dakar...

[dimviii]

Lavadinho photos

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckvjcf8WgAA-Fru.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckvjb-dXEAA7xjP.jpg


Jari-Matti Latvala ‏@JariMattiWRC

Here are José & Orlando! They are our and @thierryneuville head mechanics! And it's a portuguese one-two! #Congrats

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckv26G_XAAAw9tO.jpg

Colin Clark ‏@voiceofrally

Think it's fair to say Pappa Neuville is the happiest man in Sardinia @thierryneuville @HyundaiWRC

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkvzixkXIAEvmP0.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkvrokaXAAA6Txd.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkvtYRbXEAAATBj.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkvtNFAWEAAx2me.jpg

[dimviii]

nice celebration after some tough times
https://twitter.com/thierryneuville

[Rallyper]

Would you say that if it was Tidemand? ;)

When did only last day count? So answer is - never.

[Jack4688`]

Lavadinho photos

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckvjcf8WgAA-Fru.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckvjb-dXEAA7xjP.jpg


Jari-Matti Latvala ‏@JariMattiWRC

Here are José & Orlando! They are our and @thierryneuville head mechanics! And it's a portuguese one-two! #Congrats

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckv26G_XAAAw9tO.jpg

Colin Clark ‏@voiceofrally

Think it's fair to say Pappa Neuville is the happiest man in Sardinia @thierryneuville @HyundaiWRC

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkvzixkXIAEvmP0.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkvrokaXAAA6Txd.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkvtYRbXEAAATBj.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkvtNFAWEAAx2me.jpg

I don't like super dusty rallies but that made for some nice dramatic shots!

[Ucci]

In rallysport, it was in the past ALWAYS, that fastest drivers were going first (so they had disadvantage with sweeping positions). Only in modern WRC era they have started with reversing the order...
Agree 100%.....some members have short memory.....

[bluuford]

Champion must be mentally strong as well. And Ogier has done it quite well. We must admit that this rule is for everybody. Everybody who leads might have this disadvantage or advantage in tramac rallies. Everbody know that if they lead they must sweep roads. Rules are same for everybody and if you cannot handle it you need to visit psyhologist;) Complaining is just a part of the game ;)

And it seems that we have quite equal championship right now. Even without sweeping, we still had very similar times and if we compare Italy 2015 and 2016, podium was nearly in 5 minutes year ago! That means, Tänak would have been fighting with his melting tyres for podium position and would have finished fourth ;) Nad top 10 finish was possible with over 20 minutes timeloss!

[janvanvurpa]

So what´s his heritage. The guy must be a genius. Seems not possible if that´s true.


Or it seems possible that the cars are so good and do virtually everything you need that almost anybody with minimal motivation --or better said, a little more motivation than the average young guy hanging around a shopping center can make surprising results..

[Mirek]

But interesting-even if Ogier is not sweeping the stages (2nd run and 3rd day, he is not winning stages. Except PS...).

When he has no chance to gain positions he is logically preserving tyres to take the PS. The performance on other stages doesn't have much to do with his speed IMO.

[Mirek]

When did only last day count? So answer is - never.

Actually it did and still does. ERC uses different format where instead of superally they give bonus points for results in each leg. There he would score one point overall but would not be classified in finish like here.

[dimviii]

Or it seems possible that the cars are so good and do virtually everything you need that almost anybody with minimal motivation --or better said, a little more motivation than the average young guy hanging around a shopping center can make surprising results..

its so easy,that they had to diasadvantage the faster guy for 2 days(and 80% of stage kms),to have a different winner.
No its not so easy jan.

[dimviii]

http://www.rallye-magazin.de/typo3temp/yag-galleries/01/64/77/Rallye_Sardinien_2016_KH_109_1647744_575d7b54.jpg
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/typo3temp/yag-galleries/01/64/77/Rallye_Sardinien_2016_KH_119_1647722_575d7b52.jpg
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/typo3temp/yag-galleries/01/64/77/Rallye_Sardinien_2016_KH_108_1647764_575d7b55.jpg
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/typo3temp/yag-galleries/01/64/77/Rallye_Sardinien_2016_KH_104_1647782_575d7b56.jpg

[PLuto]

Actually it did and still does. ERC uses different format where instead of superally they give bonus points for results in each leg. There he would score one point overall but would not be classified in finish like here.

Unfortunately, FIA adapted this stupid rally2 format back to ERC again and wanted to destroy bonus points also, but thanks god it didnt happened...

[PLuto]

Only 20 crews passed all stages in Sardegna and finished the rally without superally...

[er88]

Great win for Neuville, shame Hyundai keep choosing the wrong drivers for manufacturers points, but this win was out of nowhere so can't really blame them.
Personally hate the two team role, just allow teams to run 3 cars with the top two scoring manufacturers pts.

Camilli also impressed again, he's got no experience whatsoever really compared to other drivers but seems to be a quick learner and must have natural talent. If he continues to improve I guess MW deserves a lot of praise for putting his belief and money into him. Clearly a long term move

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[satnav]

Just heard Hyundai have failed post event , don't know what for yet !!!!!
Had a txt from a guy over there

It's not confirmed yet and no idea what the problem is and what car number it is, the car is being held at post event at the minute ,hopefully the problem is just interpretation of homolagation and can be cleared up.

[Mirek]

Great win for Neuville, shame Hyundai keep choosing the wrong drivers for manufacturers points, but this win was out of nowhere so can't really blame them.

Or maybe the results show how much the psychic pressure means. Actually I don't believe that it's some kind of accident that we have three consecutive winners who all had not been nominated on points or don't do the whole season so don't care about points (Meeke).


Personally hate the two team role, just allow teams to run 3 cars with the top two scoring manufacturers pts.

Agree. I would personally go even further with the formula which worked well in IRC on its peak. Whatever driver with a car of the particular brand takes manufacturer points if he's good enough. In that time it helped a lot of privateers or juniors to get good machines and support from the manufacturers. It's the WRC what benefits from that now as guys like Neuville or Mikkelsen would hardly be where they are now.


Camilli also impressed again, he's got no experience whatsoever really compared to other drivers but seems to be a quick learner and must have natural talent. If he continues to improve I guess MW deserves a lot of praise for putting his belief and money into him. Clearly a long term move

Agree. Fingers crossed to continue his progress.

[Mirek]

Just heard Hyundai have failed post event , don't know what for yet !!!!!
Had a txt from a guy over there

I hope it's not true...

[dupanton]

Just heard Hyundai have failed post event , don't know what for yet !!!!!
Had a txt from a guy over there

What? :o Anybody got a confirmation for this?

[Teme]

Stewards Communication No. 4:

"The stewards authorise the opening of parc fermé for all cars except the cars still in final scrutineering and car No. 4."

So Sordo's car got something wrong?

[RS]

When did only last day count? So answer is - never.

I was remarking on the hugely impressive pace with an R5 car, but nevermind.

You didn't answer the question anyhow.

[janvanvurpa]

its so easy,that they had to diasadvantage the faster guy for 2 days(and 80% of stage kms),to have a different winner.
No its not so easy jan.


Everything is relative..I was making a perhaps too subtle sarcasm at the space-technology laden, unimaginably sophisticated cars costing sums that make the cars unattainable for all but a few people with truckloads, literally millions, to spend.

In other words without the millions*, no car and crew and mountain of parts, without that, nothing.













* key part of talent

[Rallyper]

Actually it did and still does. ERC uses different format where instead of superally they give bonus points for results in each leg. There he would score one point overall but would not be classified in finish like here.

This WRC, not ERC.

[Rallyper]

I was remarking on the hugely impressive pace with an R5 car, but nevermind.

You didn't answer the question anyhow.

Second sentence was your answer. If PT would win last day overall, for sure everyone on this forum should clearly point out to me, some or many extra ordinary circumstances why it happened, so I would never state anything about third day results only.

[Mirek]

Everything is relative..I was making a perhaps too subtle sarcasm at the space-technology laden, unimaginably sophisticated cars costing sums that make the cars unattainable for all but a few people with truckloads, literally millions, to spend.

In other words without the millions*, no car and crew and mountain of parts, without that, nothing.

Still it's the talent what wins and matters. Don't You agree that Ogier with the same car as Latvala and Mikkelsen is very much superior to them even though he never ever bought any place in any team unlike his two team colleagues? In fact he was picked from a national one make cup run with slow and cheap cars. Similar story with Loeb...

Also what is so hi-tech on purelly mechanical 4WD without center diff? It's some nice 80' tech level there. Engines and dampers are of course different thing but the cars definitely don't drive themselves.

[Eli]

Stewards Communication No. 4:

"The stewards authorise the opening of parc fermé for all cars except the cars still in final scrutineering and car No. 4."

So Sordo's car got something wrong?

or perhaps because Sordo was standing (not on the ruts at the beginning of the PS unlike everybody else) and they think it's given him an advantage...

[stefanvv]

And it seems that we have quite equal championship right now.

It is quite equal for the vice-champion indeed.
The funny thing is that even when Ogier is not winning almost every Rally, he is still twice the points ahead. Go figure.....

[Mirek]

It is quite equal for the vice-champion indeed.
The funny thing is that even when Ogier is not winning almost every Rally, he is still twice the points ahead. Go figure.....

Is there a better proof that talent wins over wallet?

[Zeakiwi]

The high lights video of Day2, had a overhead drone shot hairpin corner comparison between Camilli and Mikkelsen. Camilli running after more cleaning than Mikkelsen pulled a car length ahead accelerating a short distance from the apex. The cleaning effect must be considerable at times in Sardinia.
Perhaps road order on gravel rounds could be numbered marbles out of a hat for the wrc cars, with the championship points order drawing 1,2 etc.

[Wim_Impreza]

I dont think to that it is the main reason. He found that he has no chance to move up. He is little bit tired with WRC, he needs to have a new toy, to do something different. Thats why he is trying circuits or Dakar...

As only World Championship level is enough for Prokop as I read here, than we can see him in the WEC circuit racing in the future?

[janvanvurpa]

Still it's the talent what wins and matters. Don't You agree that Ogier with the same car as Latvala and Mikkelsen is very much superior to them even though he never ever bought any place in any team unlike his two team colleagues?

Bien sur!
Over time Ogier has proven he has exceptional driving skills.
(some might say in direct reverse relationship to his skills as a human being---or in comment dit--menschlichkeit?)


In fact he was picked from a national one make cup run with slow and cheap cars. Similar story with Loeb...

Mais en France, you may (or may not know) there were in those days quite substantial "primes" paid out well down the field of finishers...Quite impressive amounts in cash and "goodies" in the numerous single makes Coupes.
I could send you example from the French magazine "Echappment"
( I confess I have special affection for France and for their approach to motorsport--it is where I spent 2 seasons doing Internationals in my sport--and getting paid pretty damn good..:crazy:)




Also what is so hi-tech on purelly mechanical 4WD without center diff? It's some nice 80' tech level there. Engines and dampers are of course different thing but the cars definitely don't drive themselves.

I originally was commenting on the results of Camilli doing "after only 9 gravel events"

My point is I don't know if HE has special unsual talent---when HE is in such a nice machine.
I know that Latvala and for that matter Hirvonen can drive wonderfully because I have seen them in the simplest of cars---and in my humble opinion, the best car in human history: Group 4 spec Escort....
Cannot be simpler and still move...
THEY i know can drive as well in that as anybody..
We know that of Paddon, too, after NZRC Otago last year..1st Overall in a Appendix K Escort...

I don't know that of Camilli (and vraimente I don't know that of Ogier either.)

And for example, the guy who is responsible for NOT being so bitter because the guy spuns his love missives, the "Chinless Wonder Ben Klock", we know that even after spending a fortune on a "free spec Escort" built far better than old Group 4 spec...he lasted a total of 47 seconds of his first stage with that before blowing the first corner hitting a bank and embarrassing himself to the point of dropping out with some transparently absurd excuse in a Press release.

Take the space ship away and what can they do these Camillis and others..
my point is "I don't know"


(perhaps i use the word "know" very strictly? )

Extreme limited experience in any endevour, and high result make me think the role of experience is not central element.

[Mirek]

I for a change think that it doesn't matter at all if Camilli, Latvala or whoever can drive Escort gr.4 if they can drive the car they actually use. And no, I don't think it's so easy ;)

[SubaruNorway]

or perhaps because Sordo was standing (not on the ruts at the beginning of the PS unlike everybody else) and they think it's given him an advantage...

Did the 2WD cars even get going there without a push? :p

[itix]

I have to admit I'm pretty conflicted about the WRC at the moment.

If you ignore some of the nonsense being spouted by his team boss, I completely understand Ogier's frustrations and, like many on here, I think it's completely unfair being asked to sweep for two days. I'd like to see that regulation changed next year.

But.... damn, we've had five different rally winners in a row! I think that's the first time that's happened since 2001.

You can't ignore how good that is for the sport. The ability to tune in and not actually know who is going to win the event has been a distant memory for rally fans. I'm also enjoying following the events a lot more, but at the same time in the back of my mind I am aware that there's this artificial element to it.

So the big question is what is the bigger evil? Is it more important to have purity of competition than a more exciting show? Like I say I'm conflicted.

I guess for hardcore rally fans it's a case of how much do you allow yourself to enjoy this current format...

I think we all have very short memeories...

Remember back in the days when drivers used to stop before the stage end so they wouldn't have to run first the next day?

I vomited bile on the TV when the running order was changed between the days so people were being "tactical" and slowed down. It de-merited the sport so badly there was no words for it. WE. DO. _NOT_ want to go back to that...

Either the format stays or we go back to qualifying stage and the running order stays for the whole event. All other options are out of the picture. The problem is that also the qualifying stage was not a perfect system because it depended on how many runs you managed to get and how well the road was swept and the weather and a million other things.

We are talking about the world's most natural handicap here, and Ogier is 1st because he is the best, despite not winning every event.

Like Simmi says, it is nice not knowing who will win and I for one couldn't care less why. If there was a proper challenger to Ogier, that someone would be running first on the road, but this isn't the case.

[Eli]

Did the 2WD cars even get going there without a push? :p
I really hope they won't penalise him for that

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[dimviii]

I originally was commenting on the results of Camilli doing "after only 9 gravel events"

My point is I don't know if HE has special unsual talent---when HE is in such a nice machine.
.

in the same nice machine were Latvala,Sordo,Ostberg,Ogier etc.
Camilli didnt drove a superior car than the others.Was the same car,and as we have seen from plenty of drivers at wrc level,its not so easy to repeat 3rd times overall when others are pushing.
That he cant drive competetively an ford escort i can take it as a joke.

[itix]

Agree. I would personally go even further with the formula which worked well in IRC on its peak. Whatever driver with a car of the particular brand takes manufacturer points if he's good enough. In that time it helped a lot of privateers or juniors to get good machines and support from the manufacturers. It's the WRC what benefits from that now as guys like Neuville or Mikkelsen would hardly be where they are now.

This makes so much sense to me!

[PLuto]

I vomited bile on the TV when the running order was changed between the days so people were being "tactical" and slowed down. It de-merited the sport so badly there was no words for it. WE. DO. _NOT_ want to go back to that...

Really? For me this rule should be ok. Especially now, when splits are forbidden, it should be working...

[Rallyper]

I for a change think that it doesn't matter at all if Camilli, Latvala or whoever can drive Escort gr.4 if they can drive the car they actually use. And no, I don't think it's so easy ;)

However you didn´t understand the essence of what dear Mr VanLandingham tried to tell you. It´s big difference between drivers and drivers, at least in our old fart minds.

[Medved]

Hyundai - problems with side windows - http://www.rallyitaliasardegna.com/?ddownload=2246

[dimviii]

Hyundai - problems with side windows - http://www.rallyitaliasardegna.com/?ddownload=2246


phewww...

[satnav]

What? :o Anybody got a confirmation for this?

It's official now, common sense prevailed thankfully.

http://www.rallyitaliasardegna.com/?ddownload=2246

[itix]

Really? For me this rule should be ok. Especially now, when splits are forbidden, it should be working...

Nah... I am pretty sure they would manage to approximate their pace also without working splits in the car. We'd be back in the same dump again.

...I mean, a professional rally driver who job it is to judge his pace relative to the others should be able to estimate how much to stop to have a favorable position.

[stefanvv]

Nah... I am pretty sure they would manage to approximate their pace also without working splits in the car. We'd be back in the same dump again.

...I mean, a professional rally driver who job it is to judge his pace relative to the others should be able to estimate how much to stop to have a favorable position.

I have doubts for this too. Mikkelsen on today's PS was slow enough.

[itix]

50 000€? O_O

...for some bloody windows?
Has rolex released a spring collection of watches and the heads of the FIA decided they wanted some of that cake? ...the hell?

[Barreis]

Better then exclusion or time penalty...

[Mirek]

However you didn´t understand the essence of what dear Mr VanLandingham tried to tell you. It´s big difference between drivers and drivers, at least in our old fart minds.

I know quite a lot of drivers who are fast with these old cars but never managed to be fast with the new cars even if they tried. What does it mean then? Are they bad drivers when they can't do something so easy? Or is that point completely irrelevant?

[stefanvv]

That he cant drive competetively an ford escort i can take it as a joke.

Probably he is referring to French FWD invention connection. You know RWD and FWD are completely different philosophies in Rally driving. Driving 4WD must combine them in the best way and seems French drivers recently are well ahead at this.

[bluuford]

50 000€? O_O

...for some bloody windows?
Has rolex released a spring collection of watches and the heads of the FIA decided they wanted some of that cake? ...the hell?
I remember that in 2007 M-Sport got 5 minutes penalty for 0.5 mm thinner side windows... so 50 000 EUR is very light punishment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Rally_de_Portugal

[Mirek]

50 000€? O_O

...for some bloody windows?
Has rolex released a spring collection of watches and the heads of the FIA decided they wanted some of that cake? ...the hell?

It's a reminder that they shall not have chaos in their stuff. In this case there was clearly zero impact on the performance but on the other hand we have seen a loooot of privateers being mercilessly excluded for similar stupid things.

[PLuto]

I have doubts for this too. Mikkelsen on today's PS was slow enough.

PS had only 6 kms...

[Mirek]

I remember that in 2007 M-Sport got 5 minutes penalty for 0.5 mm thinner side windows... so 50 000 EUR is very light punishment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Rally_de_Portugal

Those 0,5 mm thinner windows had a lot bigger weight difference than these. I don't have the homologatio form in my hands but it's possible that those 17 grams may actually be in the tolerance. In any case 17 grams is nothing.

[bluuford]

Those 0,5 mm thinner windows had a lot bigger weight difference than these. I don't have the homologatio form in my hands but it's possible that those 17 grams may actually be in the tolerance. In any case 17 grams is nothing.
I do not know, tehese were rear side windows, so and half mm for small windnow is quite small difference

[Mirek]

It's not because AFAIK in that time they were made of glass which is very heavy compared to polycarbonate which is used now.

[Eli]

I remember that in 2007 M-Sport got 5 minutes penalty for 0.5 mm thinner side windows... so 50 000 EUR is very light punishment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Rally_de_Portugal
And it cost Marcus Gronholm 3 championship points...

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[danon]

A ticket of €50 000 for a 36 grams difference... even Prokop can lose 1kg of his weight in the WC after a burger.

This must be the joke of the year!


http://s5.postimg.org/ckesc3dmv/mp9.jpg

[bluuford]

If you read the decision, then it was very fair decision. So, this win cost extra 52 000 EUR for Hyundai (also Neuville speeding tickets)

[PLuto]

A ticket of €50 000 for a 36 grams difference... even Prokop can lose 1kg of his weight in the WC after a burger.

This must be the joke of the year!

This ticket of €50 000 is not for 36 grams difference. It is for not correct administrative procedure from FIA with homologation...

[stefanvv]

PS had only 6 kms...

6km, 60km, what's the difference in driving?

[Mirek]

Is it a serious question?

[danon]

This ticket of €50 000 is not for 36 grams difference. It is for not correct administrative procedure from FIA with homologation...

Here is another example of a bigger grams difference (taking into account different drivers, different driving style, different strategy, different tire wear etc etc etc...

I PESI DELLE GOMME NEL WRC TRA UNA NUOVA E UNA CONSUMATA

Dovete sapere che le macchine hanno un peso minimo obbligatorio di 1.200 kg e i commissari della FIA possono pesare le auto in qualunque momento quindi la macchina deve rispettare sempre il peso minimo. Capirete come qualunque cosa debba essere “tarata”, dalla benzina alle gomme. Proprio queste ultime, durante le prove speciali, subiscono una tale usura da arrivare a perdere qualche chilo di peso, ed ecco che la bilancia serve proprio per pesare le gomme nuove e quelle usate, per vedere le differenze.
Abbiamo fatto una prova ed è proprio così: la gomma nuova (compreso il cerchio in magnesio) pesa 24,6 kg e quella usata pesa 22,1 kg: dieci chili di differenza per le quattro gomme non sono affatto pochi quindi bisognerà tenerne conto magari quando si deve fare rifornimento di carburante e fare più benzina per compensare la perdita di peso delle gomme.

https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13450825_10153880340508952_3409025503263513350_n.j pg?oh=390f0859bb88d3f4925defa23b820bd9&oe=57CA5552
https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13433326_10153880340603952_9065443869265256754_o.j pg

[janvanvurpa]

I for a change think that it doesn't matter at all if Camilli, Latvala or whoever can drive Escort gr.4 if they can drive the car they actually use. And no, I don't think it's so easy ;)


So how do explain Camilli making such good results with such little experience?

I labor under a misunderstanding that experience must be learned--experienced in other words and I somehow thought that to do top level results in any endeavor required a LOT of experience in this case in training and/or competition.
Is he just a prodigy?

even Mozart was raised from an infant with his father guiding him...

And Mirek, droogie, I stress RELATIVE...
I don't say to drive modern current car with all the driver's aides (4wd is one thing, modern turbo engines are another, unbelievably fantastic long travel suspension is another) is EASY....It is r-e-l-a-t-i-v-e-l-y easier than a n.a. 2wd car.
(I have driven on gravel well prepped FWD, RWD and 4WD turbo cars....It is relatively easier driving a turbo motor with relatively broader power and abundant torque than a high performance, narrower powerband n.a. motor: if you do not keep the n.a. motor perfectly flat out you go nowhere fast... And be late or early on every gearchange and you are in the bottom of the results...Much easier (for my brain) to go fast with big broad power.)

I think the proof is that when there was all n.a. 2wd cars you would have never seen a man make a SS win and a handful of SS 3rds etc with only 9 gravel events total to his name.

But as always, wot da fuq do I know?

[Mirek]

Here is another example of a bigger grams difference (taking into account different drivers, different driving style, different strategy, different tire wear etc etc etc...

Why do You still repeat those grams? They are irrelevant and even the steward's decision mention them only as more or less curiosity. Those windows were not homologated because they had diffrent shape. Also the whole thing is clearly only a mess as the homologated window can't be fit in the actual WRC car.

[Mirek]

So how do explain Camilli making such good results with such little experience?

I labor under a misunderstanding that experience must be learned--experienced in other words and I somehow thought that to do top level results in any endeavor required a LOT of experience in this case in training and/or competition.
Is he just a prodigy?

even Mozart was raised from an infant with his father guiding him...

And Mirek, droogie, I stress RELATIVE...
I don't say to drive modern current car with all the driver's aides (4wd is one thing, modern turbo engines are another, unbelievably fantastic long travel suspension is another) is EASY....It is r-e-l-a-t-i-v-e-l-y easier than a n.a. 2wd car.
(I have driven on gravel well prepped FWD, RWD and 4WD turbo cars....It is relatively easier driving a turbo motor with relatively broader power and abundant torque than a high performance, narrower powerband n.a. motor: if you do not keep the n.a. motor perfectly flat out you go nowhere fast... And be late or early on every gearchange and you are in the bottom of the results...Much easier (for my brain) to go fast with big broad power.)

I think the proof is that when there was all n.a. 2wd cars you would have never seen a man make a SS win and a handful of SS 3rds etc with only 9 gravel events total to his name.

But as always, wot da fuq do I know?

Maybe because he is good? Look, Ogier managed to win his very first WRC stage in his his very first 4WD outing on the first stage of the event (Sweet Lamb 2008)! Before he only drove two seasons in French 206XS cup and one season in JWRC. Nothing else. It may look unbelievable but it's true. That stage was even icy mud if I remmeber so even one of the hardest conditions what You can imagine.

About Your old cars. You can take also opposite examples. For example Belgian Didier Vanwijnsberghe. He is bloody fast with Escort Mk.II but even after two seasons he didn't manage to drive Fabia S2000 faster than his Escort so he sold it and continues with the Escort. There are more similar examples. The point is that it's perfectly irrelevant how fast somebody would be with 40 years old car. It's about how fast they are now.

[stefanvv]

Is it a serious question?

Sure. If he can drive 6km slow, why wouldn't he drive 60km slow. It is even easier.

[Mirek]

Sure. If he can drive 6km slow, why wouldn't he drive 60km slow. It is even easier.

Because he would have no idea how much time he lost by slow driving over 60 km? Even I can quite safely guess how much time I dropped on 6 km but no way I could do that on 60 km long road. Of course Mikkelsen can judge better than me but still the risk of misjudgement is huge on a long stage.

[stefanvv]

Because he would have no idea how much time he lost by slow driving over 60 km? Even I can quite safely guess how much time I dropped on 6 km but no way I could do that on 60 km long road. Of course Mikkelsen can judge better than me but still the risk of misjudgement is huge on a long stage.

Hmm, I'm not saying he knows exactly how much seconds will lose for 6km, that's impossible. Be he surely can judge his pace well enough.... If he knows how many secs/km, it is enough information for 6, 60 or 600 kms....

[danon]

Why do You still repeat those grams?

http://s5.postimg.org/n9sh4cpfr/mirek.jpg

[janvanvurpa]

Maybe because he is good? Look, Ogier managed to win his very first WRC stage in his his very first 4WD outing on the first stage of the event (Sweet Lamb 2008)! Before he only drove two seasons in French 206XS cup and one season in JWRC. Nothing else. It may look unbelievable but it's true. That stage was even icy mud if I remmeber so even one of the hardest conditions what You can imagine.

About Your old cars. You can take also opposite examples. For example Belgian Didier Vanwijnsberghe. He is bloody fast with Escort Mk.II but even after two seasons he didn't manage to drive Fabia S2000 faster than his Escort so he sold it and continues with the Escort. There are more similar examples. The point is that it's perfectly irrelevant how fast somebody would be with 40 years old car. It's about how fast they are now.


From what I have read of Loeb he grew up driving on muddy, and snowy roads--with crap tires...Here in North America--although on a vastly different scale some of the guys up in Quebec in Canada are shockingly (relatively) fast on snow and especially ice (no studs then)...that's what they drive on 6 months of the year. and of course they are all absolute lunatics whenever they drive anywhere.

And true confessions when I was building that nice Ford Sierra Cosworth 4x4 that sits over <-------there next to my beloved old Saab I often wondered how results would go...what i wondered was "was I at my limit? Would I have higher Overall results? I had done some 3rd and 4th and 5th Overall with an ancient --but light and built bigger engineand freer spec than old WRC spec Saab----logically it sure seemed like I should go faster (and tests seemed to back that up) or was that speed what I could do?"

I only use Escort because as Paddon showed so well it is a simple car that has no real vices and is capable of an outright win even against a whole field of turbo 4wd cars.. It is FAST....if driven right.
Still.

[Mirek]

http://s5.postimg.org/n9sh4cpfr/mirek.jpg

Dear Danon, You don't need to show me that again. I can read and I am sure You can do that too. So please read the whole text again. The penalty is not for the weight but for the shape. The weight difference is there written most likely only to show that it was irrelevant.

Had the document something to do with wrong weight, it must have contained exact values and their respective tolerances to be valid.


Hmm, I'm not saying he knows exactly how much seconds will lose for 6km, that's impossible. Be he surely can judge his pace well enough.... If he knows how many secs/km, it is enough information for 6, 60 or 600 kms....

Tell me how much I have to slow down to loose 10 seconds on 600 km? I know how to loose 10 seconds on 6 km but I'm quite sure that nobody ever walking on this planet could know how much to slow down to loose 10 seconds on 600 km.

Just count those s/km for 6, 60 and 600 km and compare the result. I hope You then understand.

[danon]

50 000€? O_O

...for some bloody windows?
Has rolex released a spring collection of watches and the heads of the FIA decided they wanted some of that cake? ...the hell?

One of their cigars weigh more... http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/topic/93095-list-of-cuban-cigar-weights/

[stefanvv]

Tell me how much I have to slow down to loose 10 seconds on 600 km? I know how to loose 10 seconds on 6 km but I'm quite sure that nobody ever walking on this planet could know how much to slow down to loose 10 seconds on 600 km.

Just count those s/km for 6, 60 and 600 km and compare the result. I hope You then understand.

If You want to be that precise then a spin on a corner will do the job. But I guess it doesn't matter if it is 10, 20 or 30 seconds for 600 kms regulating the pace.
On the contrary how do You know how You'll loose 10 seconds for 6km by pure pace, of course the chance is higher than for 600kms but it'll never happen because You're not super-human. It'll always be +- some seconds.

[danon]

Dear Danon, You don't need to show me that again. I can read and I am sure You can do that too. So please read the whole text again. The penalty is not for the weight but for the shape. The weight difference is there written most likely only to show that it was irrelevant.

If weight makes no difference it won't be mentioned in the Stewards Decision.

The devil is in the details - dear bohemian comrade.

[Mirek]

If You want to be that precise then a spin on a corner will do the job. But I guess it doesn't matter if it is 10, 20 or 30 seconds for 600 kms regulating the pace.
On the contrary how do You know how You'll loose 10 seconds for 6km by pure pace, of course the chance is higher than for 600kms but it'll never happen because You're not super-human. It'll always be +- some seconds.

Stefan, please... think about it again. That's complete nonsense what You say. Yes, You can do a spin and loose 10 seconds but the key is from which value do You need to loose it - that's not Your time but time of Your opponent.


If weight makes no difference it won't be mentioned in the Stewards Decision.

The devil is in the details - dear bohemian comrade.

Please read that text again because You are wrong.

[danon]

Please read that text again because You are wrong.

Read it I did.
Wrong I am not.
Grams mentioned I saw.
Long live the Empire VW.
It smells politics (change rules).
Money talks.

Grams do matter!

[stefanvv]

Stefan, please... think about it again. That's complete nonsense what You say. Yes, You can do a spin and loose 10 seconds but the key is from which value do You need to loose it - that's not Your time but time of Your opponent.

Ok, I'm not talking about opponent's time, just one's own one. For sure there is more precise info with split times and engineers with computers will tell You on the radio to stop for N secs before the stage end.
But if You know before the stage You have to lose min 20 secs for a 30 km stage, probably You'll know what pace will be enough to lose them. Mikkelsen had to lose today by few seconds, but lost 18+ for 6km. Isn't that odd for such a short stage, yet these were enough for his purpose.

[EightGear]

Are we debating which is the best way to deliberately loose time on a stage now?

[PLuto]

Are we debating which is the best way to deliberately loose time on a stage now?

Of course. And as far as I see, Mirek is trying to show that it is not so easy to predict how much time you need to loose not to be first on the road next day, if there are no splits. Especially on longer stages, where you cannot predict, how fast are your rivals (because they can use tactics also)...

[Rally Power]

Huge congrats to Neuville/Gilsoul and Hyundai. Neuville is one of the best drivers around and it’s great to see him on the top again. In Portugal he looked already to be in a better mood and he reacted to the fuel problem with a strong team spirit. Hyundai’s tech work must also be praised as they’re now clearly on VW’s pace. Camilli did also a nice rally and it seems his progressing is now taking its natural course. I know Lappi isn’t much valued here, but his times in today SS’s were simply outstanding. Can’t wait to see him on a ’17 WRC car!

Btw, there was another manu involved in Sardegna. Abarth entered a small R3T 500 for the young Italian rally challenge winners, Fusio/Salgaro, and they’ve managed to take it to the final podium and win RC3 class. Quite an adventure! https://www.facebook.com/RallyItaliaTalent/

[danon]

Now I know why Neuville was bloody fast...

36 grams of peanut butter (this doesn't count the spoon).

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Tg_O4hpREVc/TwyysFKUljI/AAAAAAAAB4k/45DO86L9zSA/s1600/035.JPG

[Teme]

From Rally de Portugal thread:

http://uk.rallydeportugal.pt/ResourcesUser/Documentos/Quadro_oficial_de_afixacao/2016/Comunicacoes/Stewards_Communication_No_2.pdf

Abbring can not score manufacturer points. (old model i20, not eligible because other team N-car is new i20)

How is that now it seems Abbring was able to score manu points in this rally? Doesn't make any sense

[GigiGalliNo1]

Propkop would have been classified in 5th position if he did not get the penalty... wouldn't you be pi$$ed?

[Oliverk]

Propkop would have been classified in 5th position if he did not get the penalty... wouldn't you be pi$$ed?

No 9-th max.

[AL14]

Of course. And as far as I see, Mirek is trying to show that it is not so easy to predict how much time you need to loose not to be first on the road next day, if there are no splits. Especially on longer stages, where you cannot predict, how fast are your rivals (because they can use tactics also)...

Of course is impossible to predict how much time you will loose in long stages especially but this idea can work ONLY if there are no splits and ONLY if stages are not short. I think there are too many "only if"...

[Mirek]

Ok, I'm not talking about opponent's time, just one's own one. For sure there is more precise info with split times and engineers with computers will tell You on the radio to stop for N secs before the stage end.

I thought that it's forbidden.

[Mirek]

Propkop would have been classified in 5th position if he did not get the penalty... wouldn't you be pi$$ed?

His team broke rules. Wouldn't others be pissed if somebody was allowed to freely brake rules?

[AL14]

His team broke rules. Wouldn't others be pissed if somebody was allowed to freely brake rules?

Prokop wasn't happy lately. Since 2015 he started to ask a privateers championship and it has been denied. Then it comes new stricter rules for 2017 cars, 14 events in the calendar that meant more costs, and I think he also thinks the Fiesta is slower than other cars.

I think FIA and promoter do not need privates anymore and they are starting not to care to them.
I think it is good if Prokop will try something else. I don't understand why he doesn't like ERC. It is actually the perfect dimension for him, doesn't it?

[stefanvv]

I thought that it's forbidden.

Of course it is, I just use it as reference. It is not so easy to predict exact time loss no matter how long the stage is, but a driver can judge his pace well enough to lose minimum target time. Of course with longer stages it is more difficult, but my point generally is they can reach minimum target time loss, how bigger it'll really be is anyone's guess. Will he just be slow on some parts of the entire stage or just little slower on the entire stage is his preference.

[Rallyper]

His team broke rules. Wouldn't others be pissed if somebody was allowed to freely brake rules?

Broke rules? I find it more peculiar that a shape of a windowwhich even didn´t fit on that doormodel can make FIA fine 50k Euros is most unethical.

They could have said: "Hey, guys, you´ve messed this up with the scrutineer/homolgationdepartment at FIA and on Monday morning you have to fix this immediately so papers are in order next rally in Poland. Or else we have to fine you at least 5000 Euros."

To me it had looked more justice than this 50k fine for almost nothing.

[Mirek]

Broke rules? I find it more peculiar that a shape of a windowwhich even didn´t fit on that doormodel can make FIA fine 50k Euros is most unethical.

They could have said: "Hey, guys, you´ve messed this up with the scrutineer/homolgationdepartment at FIA and on Monday morning you have to fix this immediately so papers are in order next rally in Poland. Or else we have to fine you at least 5000 Euros."

To me it had looked more justice than this 50k fine for almost nothing.

The seal was broken on the rear diff when it was not allowed. It's clear violation of the rules and it's normal to expect a penalty for that.

[Rallyper]

The seal was broken on the rear diff when it was not allowed. It's clear violation of the rules and it's normal to expect a penalty for that.

So there was more on Huyndai? Didn´t know that...

[Barreis]

Maybe he was talking about Prokop's car...

[GigiGalliNo1]

No, if you look at his time (final time) without the 5 min penalty at the end of the rally... What position would he have been?

[Jasper]

No, if you look at his time (final time) without the 5 min penalty at the end of the rally... What position would he have been?

9th, not 5th.

[PLuto]

Propkop would have been classified in 5th position if he did not get the penalty... wouldn't you be pi$$ed?

WIthout penalty, Prokop should be 9th.

[Mirek]

So there was more on Huyndai? Didn´t know that...

Sorry, that was Prokop's case. I didn't read You post properly. In case of Hyundai it's more or less ridiculous mess but quite expensive...

[GigiGalliNo1]

Aren't I silly... I got the Czech names wrong!

Disregard my posts ;)

[Duvel]

We were in Sardinia for the last 6 years in a row, this year we decided to go for Portugal.
In Portugal Neuville whithout fuel... in Sardinia victory, shame we waren't there...
Still, solid drive by Thiery, ok road position has helped him, but afternoon second pass stages were also fast.

Congrats tho them, hope the bal starts rolling again now, battling for podium / victory on all events. He does have the potential for that!

Anyone know if Sardinia wil be in 2017 WRC calendar?

[timlord22]

Not sure if already posted but Paddon crash from a distance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixrR4qQ_F2k

[satnav]

Seen this today

https://www.facebook.com/rallyemag/photos/a.68262979972.93990.68262729972/10154298593904973/?type=3&theater

[TURBO43]

My video, with drone ! Enjoy it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHQcss-iPQQ

[janvanvurpa]

Broke rules? I find it more peculiar that a shape of a windowwhich even didn´t fit on that doormodel can make FIA fine 50k Euros is most unethical.

They could have said: "Hey, guys, you´ve messed this up with the scrutineer/homolgationdepartment at FIA and on Monday morning you have to fix this immediately so papers are in order next rally in Poland. Or else we have to fine you at least 5000 Euros."

To me it had looked more justice than this 50k fine for almost nothing.


Imagine how much surprise the scrutineers and stewards would have if this were pressed further..

"That window didn't fit----50,000 please.

Wait, we can't seem to fit this intercooler---under this hood..(ching ching) 70,000 and this gearbox seems to have some different gears 10,000; 10,000; 10,000---and it has a LSD inside that doesn't fit.. 200,000 ching---
and this control arm is about twice as long and made of tube---the Original is a steel stamping.....133,000 thank you, and it what do you call this suspension? 1 million Euros please, it is not in conformity to the original.."


Please remit ALL YOUR MONIES!! REACH FOR THE SKY STUNGATZ! Dis is a stick up!"



or maybe something like this (substituting "rally team" for "Army")
http://<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/cNZKUozrBl4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> (http://)

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/cNZKUozrBl4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Rallyper]

Good one John!
However rules are rules regarding gearboxes, engines weights overal etz. That´s fine to me.

But rear windows? Me o mine, that´s just too much fining 50k . Who made that rule up?

[danon]

Hint:
FIA heads can make a fortune out of fluids weight change if they charge €10 000 per gram difference.

[Mirek]

But rear windows? Me o mine, that´s just too much fining 50k . Who made that rule up?

It's the car makers themselves who wanted this extreme system of homologations so that they secure selling more spare parts to privateers. No heardache from my side.

[Rallyper]

It's the car makers themselves who wanted this extreme system of homologations so that they secure selling more spare parts to privateers. No heardache from my side.

Ok. But fines 50k for 36g? 1390 Euros/gram.

[sete]

Biggest problem with the windows wasnt the weight,but different kind of attachment of windows to the bodyshell

[Mirek]

Ok. But fines 50k for 36g? 1390 Euros/gram.

Per, I have written that at least five times already. They were not penalized for the weight! Please read the documents again. The shape of the windows was wrong (the part which is not visible and by which the window is attached to the door).

[Mariusz]

So now the question is why some get time penalty and some get fines? Do drivers have a choice what type of punishment they get? I'm not saying that Prokop would be more happy with a 30k euro fine, but for me it looks like they have no problems with kicking small guys/teams and there are different rules for manufacturers.

[Mk2 RS2000]

Per, I have written that at least five times already. They were not penalized for the weight! Please read the documents again. The shape of the windows was wrong (the part which is not visible and by which the window is attached to the door).

Relax Mirek, there are none so blind as those who won’t see.

The simply do not understand that it is not about the weight, it is about non-compliance with the homologation papers.
They do not understand that cars must be as described in the paperwork and that being slightly non-compliant is just like being slightly pregnant

[makinen_fan]

So now the question is why some get time penalty and some get fines? Do drivers have a choice what type of punishment they get? I'm not saying that Prokop would be more happy with a 30k euro fine, but for me it looks like they have no problems with kicking small guys/teams and there are different rules for manufacturers.

Two different infringments. Performance advantage vs silly mistake in homologation papers? I am sure if Hyundai broke the transmission seal they would be given same penalty as Prokop.

[N.O.T]

Why you are arguing over an infringement that did not change the results ??

be serious kids.

[Rallyper]

Per, I have written that at least five times already. They were not penalized for the weight! Please read the documents again. The shape of the windows was wrong (the part which is not visible and by which the window is attached to the door).

Yeah, I saw that before, but figures are funny sometimes anyway.

[Rallyper]

Relax Mirek, there are none so blind as those who won’t see.

The simply do not understand that it is not about the weight, it is about non-compliance with the homologation papers.
They do not understand that cars must be as described in the paperwork and that being slightly non-compliant is just like being slightly pregnant

Blind I´m not.
Homologation I know much about.
Rearwindows in pure glass or plexi or whatever. Fine. decide what you want and homologate it.
BUT -attaching rearwindow on car should not be an issue for homologation, why?

[AL14]

Why you are arguing over an infringement that did not change the results ??

be serious kids.

Still better than Ostberg's discussions

[Mariusz]

Two different infringments. Performance advantage vs silly mistake in homologation papers? I am sure if Hyundai broke the transmission seal they would be given same penalty as Prokop.
I'm not a very technical guy, so please explain how exactly Prokop's car performance was improved? There was also Kubica's case in Sweden 2015 where his turbo boost went over a homologated value for some short periods of time and as stated by M-Sport this couldn't had any performance advantage and still, he got 5 min penalty. There are just some double standards.
I'm happy for Thierry though, he did a great job last weekend and was faster than Latvala.

[stefanvv]

BUT -attaching not homologated rearwindow on car should be an issue for homologation

May be this is the answer?!?

[Rallyper]

May be this is the answer?!?

Think it´s one word too much htere. Should be: "attaching homologated rear window should not be an issue of homologation". Meaning how you attach homologated window, how could it be an issue?

[stefanvv]

Think it´s one word too much htere. Should be: "attaching homologated rear window should not be an issue of homologation". Meaning how you attach homologated window, how could it be an issue?
but it is not, is it?
http://www.rallyitaliasardegna.com/?ddownload=2246

[denkimi]

this whole homologation thing is just a money making machine for the fia and the manufacturers.
in pretty much every other racing series the organizer just writes the general rules, and competitors have to make sure their car applies to them.
but in rally, the opposite is true. parts have to be homologated, even though no special rules apply to them.

in the case of windows, the only rule should be a full filling of the chassis holes, a certain material and some specific thickness. shape of weight are not specified, so they should never cause a penalty.

[Rallyper]

Ok, they screw up homologating rearwindow that had never been fitted on the 16´i20. For me it´s still not worth 50k.

[stefanvv]

this whole homologation thing is just a money making machine for the fia and the manufacturers.
in pretty much every other racing series the organizer just writes the general rules, and competitors have to make sure their car applies to them.
but in rally, the opposite is true. parts have to be homologated, even though no special rules apply to them.

in the case of windows, the only rule should be a full filling of the chassis holes, a certain material and some specific thickness. shape of weight are not specified, so they should never cause a penalty.

May be it isn't fair or something but all other cars comply with this. So money machine or not, these are "the rules" as You say.

[Mk2 RS2000]

Think it´s one word too much htere. Should be: "attaching homologated rear window should not be an issue of homologation". Meaning how you attach homologated window, how could it be an issue?

My understanding is that the window has to be able to be removed without the use of tools, if that is so then the method of attachment could be an issue. Cheers

[AndyRAC]

this whole homologation thing is just a money making machine for the fia and the manufacturers.
in pretty much every other racing series the organizer just writes the general rules, and competitors have to make sure their car applies to them.
but in rally, the opposite is true. parts have to be homologated, even though no special rules apply to them.

in the case of windows, the only rule should be a full filling of the chassis holes, a certain material and some specific thickness. shape of weight are not specified, so they should never cause a penalty.

Or they get a waiver...... ;)

[N.O.T]

And they still keep on about it ladies and gentlemen !!!! they still care about things they do not matter !!! Isn't humanity amazing and very very disappointing at the same time ?

[AL14]

And they still keep on about it ladies and gentlemen !!!! they still care about things they do not matter !!! Isn't humanity amazing and very very disappointing at the same time ?

Please, do not be disappointed, here, take this picture, I know you like this kind of stuff

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13432230_1194600527225865_8375796039051755970_n.jp g?oh=31c22b4254a9d4ca3c8bdcdba632dd21&oe=57C8CD30

[Rally Power]

Ok, they screw up homologating rearwindow that had never been fitted on the 16´i20. For me it´s still not worth 50k.

The 50.000 Euros may seem harsh, but Hyundai’s was lucky to escape from a time penalty like it happen with Citroen in ’09 Australia Rally. Then it was an anti-roll bar link problem, but the main issue is the same: no conformity with homologation form.
http://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/rally-australia-citroen-statment-after-penalties/

In both cases there was no technical advantage from the use of the non homologated parts, so it makes sense to have only money penalty for this kind of administrative mistake, like it was decided this time.

Prokop’s problem seems to be totally different: breaking seals is a major fault and time penalties are established for it.

[Mirek]

Two different infringments. Performance advantage vs silly mistake in homologation papers? I am sure if Hyundai broke the transmission seal they would be given same penalty as Prokop.

It is a relevant question from Mariusz. FIA has shown in the past that the penalties for various infringements are more or less random. The stewards have absolute freedom in choosing the penalty and it is true that they have been generally a lot stricter to privateers than to the works teams, for example some were disqualified for expired gloves etc.

[Mirek]

I'm not a very technical guy, so please explain how exactly Prokop's car performance was improved? There was also Kubica's case in Sweden 2015 where his turbo boost went over a homologated value for some short periods of time and as stated by M-Sport this couldn't had any performance advantage and still, he got 5 min penalty. There are just some double standards.
I'm happy for Thierry though, he did a great job last weekend and was faster than Latvala.

Sorry but are you telling us that braking a seal or running an over-the-limit turbo pressure does not provide a competition advantage? M-Sport statement is irrelevant as they were the guilty party who had to make itself looking like innocent. In both cases they probably didn't brake the rules in purpose but they did.

[dimviii]

http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2016/photos/rally_italia_sardegna_2016/lk_1ogier.jpg
http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2016/photos/rally_italia_sardegna_2016/pse_img_6037.jpg
http://forum-rallye.com/uploads/monthly_06_2016/post-325-0-42802300-1465909094.jpg

[Mariusz]

Sorry but are you telling us that braking a seal or running an over-the-limit turbo pressure does not provide a competition advantage? M-Sport statement is irrelevant as they were the guilty party who had to make itself looking like innocent. In both cases they probably didn't brake the rules in purpose but they did.
No, I'm asking what is the performance advantage gained from breaking a seal, because I don't know. The extra turbo pressure for sure gave something, but this 'something' could have been like 0,01 seconds gained, probably just the same as the total time gained since Monte Carlo for all Hyundais because of the window weight difference.

[PLuto]

It is a relevant question from Mariusz. FIA has shown in the past that the penalties for various infringements are more or less random. The stewards have absolute freedom in choosing the penalty and it is true that they have been generally a lot stricter to privateers than to the works teams, for example some were disqualified for expired gloves etc.

But regarding Prokop issue, penalty was completely clear. See regulations:

27.2.2 Should identification marks (see Arts. 26.1.6 and 63) be affixed, it is the responsibility of the competitor to see that these are preserved intact from pre-rally scrutineering until the end of the rally or until it will be allowed by these regulations to cut the seals. Should they be missing, this will be reported to the Stewards.

64.5.1 Transmissions and turbochargers must remain sealed until the end of the last rally of the link (except with approval from the FIA Technical delegate).

If the seals are found to be destroyed without the written approval of the FIA Technical delegate, a 5-minute penalty will be imposed by the Stewards at the next rally.

[tommeke_B]

Had a great rally in Sardinia, like every year. One of the most spectator-friendly events in the WRC. The shakedown was disappointing, but the rest of the event was ok. Also a short but very nice powerstage on sunday, far better than Cala Flumini, which they used the last couple of years. Happy to see Neuville win from Latvala, I didn't expect it at all! :)

https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13418632_1323155704362979_1284178804839475173_o.jp g

https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13442683_1325119850833231_6822693080216819004_o.jp g

https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13443025_1325120004166549_2195904140834673642_o.jp g

https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13415413_1325120454166504_9009491728483468764_o.jp g

https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13403930_1325120407499842_6208034475653391503_o.jp g

A few more on my fb page: https://www.facebook.com/rallyimage/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1325119710833245

[Mirek]

No, I'm asking what is the performance advantage gained from breaking a seal, because I don't know. The extra turbo pressure for sure gave something, but this 'something' could have been like 0,01 seconds gained, probably just the same as the total time gained since Monte Carlo for all Hyundais because of the window weight difference.

How do You know how much gain the extra turbo pressure gave? It's only Your belief since it's near impossible to determine. For that reason the maximum allowed pressure is set to prevent any discussion and it's up to the teams to keep it under the limit. If they are not sure they must have some safety margin and if they get so close that the margin is not enough than it's their problem. How much they cross the line is perfectly irrelevant. Once You are over You violated the rules. Simple as that.


Let's make a hypothetical example how crossing the line by near nothing can bring a significant advantage (not saying that it was this case).

The max. turbo pressure is 2,5 bar. Team A knows from its testing that they are able to keep the pressure 100% of the time in +/- 0,1 bar. For that reason they run on nominal 2,35 bar to be always within the limit.

Team B has exactly the same experience but studied the statistics and found that in fact for 98% of the time they are within +/-0,05 and only in 2% get on +/- 0,1. They take the risk and run 2,45 bar nominal. During the whole rally they have approximately 0,1 bar more pressure than their rival and everything is ok but one day the pressure gets over by veeery small margin so they can say that such violation has no impact on the performance while in fat they took a calculated risk to enhance their performance.

PS I'm not motoring engineer and I don't know what exact deviations from the nominal are achievable in the WRC engine so the values are just an example of the principle.

[br21]

Mirek is right with turbo pressure. And about Prokops case - it's not only about breaking the seal, but when seal is broken then you can look inside the diff, replace some parts or change setup, which for sure can give you big advantage. We don't know how it was exactly in Prokops case, but nobody knows except them, so the rule made by FIA is good. They don't check preloads, ramps, FFs, etc, they just seal what they receive and control the seal during next events, plain simple.

[Mariusz]

Makes sense. Thank you for the explanation.

[makinen_fan]

It is a relevant question from Mariusz. FIA has shown in the past that the penalties for various infringements are more or less random. The stewards have absolute freedom in choosing the penalty and it is true that they have been generally a lot stricter to privateers than to the works teams, for example some were disqualified for expired gloves etc.

Thats true that penalties are not always consistent when there are is no clear cut penalty in the regulations. For homologation infringements, it is understandable to have massive variation depending on the nature of infringement.
As for the stewards being less strict with works teams, I have not really noticed that to be honest. I expect works team to be a lot more careful not to break the rules but also the stewards to trust them a bit more that they are not doing anything stupid.

What worries me the most with the Hyundai case, is that they were running these windows for 6 rallies and nobody have noticed it until now. One wonders what other parts are illegal (from any of the works team and maybe intentionally or by genuine mistake) and are not noticed during scrutineering.

[bluuford]

well.. assistant tehnical delegate was Estonian, they notice everything :P

[dimviii]

http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2016/photos/rally_italia_sardegna_2016/rtu__mg_4033.jpg
http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2016/photos/rally_italia_sardegna_2016/rtu__mg_4401.jpg
http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2016/photos/rally_italia_sardegna_2016/dwi_16-06ita_neuville0017.jpg
http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2016/photos/rally_italia_sardegna_2016/dwi_16-06ita_ogier0017.jpg

[N.O.T]

I find the lack of flowers by the pros disturbing.... but at least they have no clue about the sport and they still go to hairpins.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Sardinia Nights: The Ballad of Thierry Neuville :p

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

[rallyfun]

I find the lack of flowers by the pros disturbing.... but at least they have no clue about the sport and they still go to hairpins.
Just regarding quality of photos, flowers, hairpins etc. those couple set the benchmark I think...LOL
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/22064604222/in/album-72157657355222624/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/14765903241/in/album-72157646038943093/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/14582362580/in/album-72157646038943093/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/5824540503/in/album-72157624425255521/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/4802139874/in/album-72157624521324138/

[kookie]

Some of my shots.. great event, the power stage was just surreal:vader:
https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13417012_1154665977888207_8088851512826035325_o.jp g
https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13392179_1156568077697997_2210138308071538959_o.jp g
https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13442487_1154664487888356_2449856640078618366_o.jp g
https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13391996_1154231274598344_4258503653364961461_o.pn g
https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13442468_1156570827697722_6680966973352382494_o.pn g

Many more can be found on my facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/racemediaSI/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1151258361562302) and on racemedia.si (http://racemedia.si)

Thanks for watching! :)

P.S.: there is even a hairpin with (real) flowers in the mix! :D

[N.O.T]

Just regarding quality of photos, flowers, hairpins etc. those couple set the benchmark I think...LOL
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/22064604222/in/album-72157657355222624/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/14765903241/in/album-72157646038943093/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/14582362580/in/album-72157646038943093/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/5824540503/in/album-72157624425255521/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/4802139874/in/album-72157624521324138/

yes but these set the standard

https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/14766107524/in/album-72157646038943093/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/14581786540/in/album-72157646038943093/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/14768502605/in/album-72157646038943093/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/8546981302/in/album-72157632968279102/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/8545896967/in/album-72157632968279102/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/7402142560/in/album-72157630194970730/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/7402155194/in/album-72157630194970730/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/7402183794/in/album-72157630194970730/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/7402263810/in/album-72157630194970730/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/4814417073/in/album-72157624425255521/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/5828879706/in/album-72157624397940105/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/5824685091/in/album-72157626944388064/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51932399@N07/5825182356/in/album-72157626819744943/

When you mess with Gods... you have a dogs end kid...

[danon]

godlike landscape...

http://s5.postimg.org/duraz49fr/Lake_7.jpg

[N.O.T]

godlike everything

[Rally Power]

Worst off topic ever?

[TURBO43]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHQcss-iPQQ

[Duvel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHQcss-iPQQ

Anyone know the point or stage at 4.15?

[tommeke_B]

Anyone know the point or stage at 4.15?

Tergu-Osilo 800m before finish. The entire stage is on Google Streetview by the way.