Group A cars

[markf8691]

Just watching WRC history on WRC + and interview with George Donaldson who states by 1988 the Group A cars had developed to over 400bhp. Is he exaggerating or is this true? I always though group A was limited to 300bhp?

If it is true, why then did they decide to limit the WRC cars to 300bhp?

[seb_sh]

As far as I know they were not limited to BHP, they had limitations like restrictors estimated to limit the cars to 300bhp. In reality they had more. I'm sure someone can dig up some numbers.

[Mirek]

I think they didn't have restrictor at all (or a lot bigger one) until 1992 or so. In that time FIA came with 34 mm restrictor which by their math was enough to reach maximum 300 Hp. Of course during the years the power got a lot higher with the same restrictor.

I believe I read that Sierra Cosworth had around 380 Hp before the restrictor was introduced.

[AMSS]

I recall the first Gr.A cars had 40mm restrictor, than reduced to 38mm and than to 34mm. The latest with 40 and 38 definitely had over 400hp but at very narrow area.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I watched that too... still amazing how the Group A cars were soon actually quicker then the mighty Group B cars !! :eek:

Didn't look or sound as good though... :(

[markf8691]

Yea I think I remember reading on JUWRA that they introduced a smaller restrictor somewhere in early 90s to try and reinforce the 300bhp, however didn't know the cars had been over 400bhp.

So by the time WRC cars came along in 97 the group A cars had increased in power again?

Why did they limit it anyway, was it for safety reasons?

This prob won't be very popular but some of the group A cars looked nicer in my opinion than in group B. The lancia delta S4 looked ugly I thought especially at the back, didn't look right!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

This prob won't be very popular but some of the group A cars looked nicer in my opinion than in group B. The lancia delta S4 looked ugly I thought especially at the back, didn't look right!

The first Gp A cars were very boring - Delta HF, Mazda 323 etc, looked just like a road car - but they soon developed !

[Mirek]

So by the time WRC cars came along in 97 the group A cars had increased in power again?

I think that by 1999-2000 the usual power of WRC cars was around 320 Hp (the restrictor size was same with gr.A) but the main development was in torque curve as they went for bigger and bigger turbo pressure.


Why did they limit it anyway, was it for safety reasons?

Yes


This prob won't be very popular but some of the group A cars looked nicer in my opinion than in group B. The lancia delta S4 looked ugly I thought especially at the back, didn't look right!

I like 90' gr.A cars a lot more than gr.B cars. Gr.B cars had better sound and were kind of monsters but they were also quite clumsy, especially on asphalt there wasn't much spectacular about them.

[janvanvurpa]

OK for once I can say "I know! I know!" because I was deep involved in this era..

Yes there was a "prikaz" issued from that ol nazi-lover Jean-Marie Balestre when he suddenly announced "No more Group B from end of 1986 season" I did in fact compete as driver in that very last Group B WRC event..and had a chance to talk to a lot of the engineers, mechanics and journalists including good ol Martin Holmes..
There was very stupid talk here in America that we should adpt Group A as out top catagory (stupid because there were less than 20 cars in the whole country which might possibly be re-made into group A cars) so I burned up a lot of time to prepare for that eventuality--which never came..

Part of the ban of Group B was also to nominate Group A as "the top category" and part also the "pronunciamento" that said "max power shall be 300 BHP in Group A"

And that turbo cars in rally Group A shall have a 40mm restrictor...and Group N had 38mm

The fun part was that there was no method mandated on measuring the "300hp max"

Example since I deal with the residual of this in my business daily (I make a lot of parts for old boxy Volvos) Back in the 1985/86 season of ETCC and other Touring Car championships, the turbo Volvo 240 was having a great run...lots of wins and lots of press to see a box boring Swedish car crushing and mutilating the arrogant Teutonic machines from Bayern. In all the spec sheets and interviews the guys always quoted in 1986 " viii haff 330 bhp"

When Balestre dropped the bomb, for 1987 Volvo press and people said "viii haff Tree hundert hp"

Even the normally quiet and polite and obedient Swedish journalists asked "Hooo kay vat you dooo different becuz las year you haff 330 and dis year onli 300?"

To which the Volvo people would point in some random direction and shout "Look! a moose" and then run away (very easy to distract Swedes...No matter where you are--indoors or out, just point in some direction, shout in complete surprise like its an amazing thing and say "Look! a Moose"--and they always look...hell after I live there for years I always look)

Now we were all fundementally shocked in the first half the season at 2 things: how easily and effectively the Lancias crushed all others with a simple 2.0 8v motor....and how much slower the cars looked (they were just short of approx 5 km/hr slower average speed)--even the best Lancias..

The first bright spot was Finland 1000 Lakes where Blomqvist and Vatanen came 2nd and 3rd in a sea of Lancias--that was when I began paying serious attention to Group A Ford Sierra Cosworth learning everything I could--cause i was going to get one i decided.

I've held right in my own medium sized hands numerous dyno print-outs of 40mm restrictor YB Cosworths and max power was on those around 392-394 bhp both USA, UK and Sweden

Ford RS dealer Mike Taylor or Mike Little (could never keep the name striaght) up in Northern England ran Ford's Group N program and when he was shutting down and (I'm going to build me a MkII Escort and have some fun before I'm too old",) I was buying some surplus parts and he said in the early days on 38mm restrictor, the GpN cars made "about 370-372bhp"

After a while the rules went 38mm for A and 36mm for N, then 36mm for A and 34mm for N---then finally by I think 1995 it was at 34mm for GpA and 32mm for Group N...and the cars qot steadily quicker and at less rpm as restrictor size went down...

[Barreis]

Those were the days... :) In Italy there were lots of private tuners who prepared group A8 cars...

[markf8691]

Just checked on JUWRA (dunno how reliable it is though) says s rule change for the 1990 season was mandatory 40mm restrictors, so before this guess they had bigger restrictors....

[Mirek]

JUWRA is run by one of our members with a nickname Jonkka ;)

[markf8691]

JUWRA is run by one of our members with a nickname Jonkka ;)

Good to know! Useful wee site!

[janvanvurpa]

Just checked on JUWRA (dunno how reliable it is though) says s rule change for the 1990 season was mandatory 40mm restrictors, so before this guess they had bigger restrictors....


Odd cause right from Jan 87 there was a lotta talk about the 40mm rule and how this would affect 2 liter cars and how Mazda was trying to be clever with their little 1,6 and how 1,6 would not be bothered like 2,0 would be..

And Mazda was out of the picture by 1990..

I have some compressor housings off Group A Cossies but they are off Escort Cossies which cam a bit later...One is 40mm and one is 38mm and I have to be honest after 1990 I was busy with my shop and rallying --we had the 40mm rule and so didn't worry---until maybe 05 when we jumped directly down to 34mm.

Whatever the time line a) it didn't slow anybody down, and b) it sucked.

A "play to the galleries" however you say that en Anglais

[Rallyper]

"Spel för galleriet" en suedois.

[OldF]

Lasse Lampi once told that the Mitsu Galant VR4 had 393 hp with a 40 mm restrictor. He also said that the 40 mm restrictor didn’t affect the power so much because the Mitsu’s throttle body had a diameter of 41,2 mm.

A Lancia Delta Integrale with 385 hp.

http://www.mat.fi/cars-for-sale

1990 Lancia Delta Integrale Group A #458692
An original ex Martini team rally car driven by Miki Biasion on 1990 rallye Monte-Carlo.
The car has undergone a complete restoration to return on the original configuration by MAT.
The engine is 16V version and was recently tested on dyno to found out 385 Hp.

Other restrictor sizes:

1992: 38 mm
1994: 36 mm
1995: 34 mm

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/turbo_restrictors.html

[AndyRAC]

Those were the days... :) In Italy there were lots of private tuners who prepared group A8 cars...

That was a strength of GpA; plenty of private tuners providing cars......

[itix]

Yea I think I remember reading on JUWRA that they introduced a smaller restrictor somewhere in early 90s to try and reinforce the 300bhp, however didn't know the cars had been over 400bhp.

So by the time WRC cars came along in 97 the group A cars had increased in power again?

Why did they limit it anyway, was it for safety reasons?

This prob won't be very popular but some of the group A cars looked nicer in my opinion than in group B. The lancia delta S4 looked ugly I thought especially at the back, didn't look right!
Agree so much with this... The only two good looking group B were Peugeot and the RS200. The sound I can understand, especially the AUDI but the look was just horrible (apart from above mentioned).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

People think the Group B cars were ugly & clumsy on tarmac, so why did their every rally have massive crowds... ?

At the time they were like mega-futuristic, uber-machines and the impression they left on people was huge. Everyone was in awe.

When Group A replaced them it was like going from seeing Concorde to watching a bi-plane !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtR5OOHZSp4

[markf8691]

Agree so much with this... The only two good looking group B were Peugeot and the RS200. The sound I can understand, especially the AUDI but the look was just horrible (apart from above mentioned).

Just looking through some pics of group b machines, the earlier ones were OK looking but I think towards the end when all the evolution specials came in that's when they stopped looking good (even though sounded good).

The Peugeot in 1984/85 looked good and yea the RS200 was cool looking, remember as a child having like a matchbox model of it and thinking it looked good!

[stefanvv]

Group B was huge blast indeed, but it was doomed in one way or another, probably by '87-'89 replaced by Group S, at that time it looks Group A has no chance against these specialized machines, though some of them looking strange indeed. I'm curious what would have been if Group S was reality, as seem lot of manufacturers were interested in it, even some Russian prototypes have been made.

[Rallyper]

People think the Group B cars were ugly & clumsy on tarmac, so why did their every rally have massive crowds... ?

At the time they were like mega-futuristic, uber-machines and the impression they left on people was huge. Everyone was in awe.

When Group A replaced them it was like going from seeing Concorde to watching a bi-plane !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtR5OOHZSp4

But in a way going over to GrA became more realistic rallying. GrB was monsters and good to look at, but also dangerous creatures hard to tame.
For me GrB was too dangerous and it was a natural step to change after Henri T accident on Corsica.

[itix]

People think the Group B cars were ugly & clumsy on tarmac, so why did their every rally have massive crowds... ?

At the time they were like mega-futuristic, uber-machines and the impression they left on people was huge. Everyone was in awe.

When Group A replaced them it was like going from seeing Concorde to watching a bi-plane !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtR5OOHZSp4
Biplanes are fantastic! ;)

Jokes aside I think the following came more from the arms race of ever upgraded machinery and the extremeness of the series at the time, not because it was fantastic looking machinery.

Like Loeb and his Hill climb car. It was a great drive to watch but damn that car was ugly.

[Mirek]

People think the Group B cars were ugly & clumsy on tarmac, so why did their every rally have massive crowds... ?

At the time they were like mega-futuristic, uber-machines and the impression they left on people was huge. Everyone was in awe.

When Group A replaced them it was like going from seeing Concorde to watching a bi-plane !

What You say is true as of course in times when people used to have 60 Hp cars and the strongest available for normal men were around 150 Hp they really were kind of mega-futuristic weird looking crazy things. What I meant was pure driving spectacle. In a way it's similar to GT discussion. There are people who find gr.B and GTs spectacular and there are people who say that both are actually crazy fast on straight but quite slow in corners which is also true. Watching those space ships turning into asphalt hairpins was painful and even more when they often had to reverse.

The first gr.A cars indeed were boring as hell compared to gr.B cars but it changed quickly. The first half of 90' is at least for me mega spectacular. I am definitely "asphalt spectator" and as such I very much prefer McRae or Sainz with gr.A cars over anyone in any gr.B 4WD car to watch.

And by the way as a spectator I would also very much prefer biplanes over Concorde :p

[janvanvurpa]

Lasse Lampi once told that the Mitsu Galant VR4 had 393 hp with a 40 mm restrictor. He also said that the 40 mm restrictor didn’t affect the power so much because the Mitsu’s throttle body had a diameter of 41,2 mm.

A Lancia Delta Integrale with 385 hp.

http://www.mat.fi/cars-for-sale

1990 Lancia Delta Integrale Group A #458692
An original ex Martini team rally car driven by Miki Biasion on 1990 rallye Monte-Carlo.
The car has undergone a complete restoration to return on the original configuration by MAT.
The engine is 16V version and was recently tested on dyno to found out 385 Hp.

Other restrictor sizes:

1992: 38 mm
1994: 36 mm
1995: 34 mm

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/turbo_restrictors.html


Thanks, I had a few cups of tea and smoked some ciggies I tore the filters off of so they work better and that is how I remember it now. Kiitos poiki.

And that makes sense..Restrictor limits HP..HP is torque x rpm..limit airflow limit max rpm and limit HP..
But what torque an engine makes is not so simple...

Way back in ancient times people said the Misterbitchy Gaylant and Evoand Toiletta Sillycar All-Crap had the most torque....we know cylinder bore was 85mm for Misterbitchy 4G63 and 86mm for Toyota 3GSE.....and 90,8 for Ford YB and 92mm Subie EJ20..after the restrictors reached 34/32 it became clearer that the cars with smaller bores could survive with more static compression and more boost than those with "bigger" bores...

We even saw Ford in the Duratec powered Focus go from original series 87.5mm DOWN to 85mm and I say it was not just to get thicker liner/foder, but to be able to go higher comp and high boost...because it won't really rev, so gotta make everything happen earlier.

[janvanvurpa]

"Spel för galleriet" en suedois.

Visst fan det vet ja väl :arrows:
But I knowt shore eeef eat means any ting in Engrish

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Why GrA Quattros (200, Coupe, & 90) are so slow..?

[janvanvurpa]

Why GrA Quattros (200, Coupe, & 90) are so slow..?

Had a good talk with Arne Hertz at WRC Olympus after we DNFed...He was co-driving then for Hannu Mikkola in the S2 Quattro...

I understood they had put all their eggs in one basket: SWB S2 Quattro...and that was finished after that event..
So they had nothing..
Part is normal German blockheadedness which in this case was a refusal to play the homolgation game....there were no alternate gearbox parts, no alternate final drives, no idea even if there was homologated decent diffs so basically they were stuck with a n.a. engine with very small bores (81mm i think--been more than 29 years, so i may be off a bit) with very small room for valves, so a low output n.a motor in a selection of very heavy cars and no gearing options other than normal road car gearing...
that's a battle lost before it begins when up against the Lancias with a basically excellent engine in turbo form, a good sized Garrett turbo (TB 0387 again if memory serves) happy to make a good 290 hp and very early boost--good snap out of corners...Good gear ratios and good final drive..

That's all just how it goes zoom..
The Audi also was maybe as long as a bus with huge overhang front and rear, --Lancia had very little and a MUCH shorter wheelbase, much easier to rotate around corners Nose End First as our friend Lundis likes to share with us...
And the Audi had the worst engine placement in all WRC history with this loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong 5 cylinder hanging a meter out in front of front diff, EVERYBODY else had better engine position and weight distribution,,

In short the Gp4/GrB Quattors went like hell because of buckets of power and that's it..
Freud durch Brutalität

So outclasses by the first year 8v Lancias...and it went down hill from there.

[Ucci]

The first gr.A cars indeed were boring as hell compared to gr.B cars but it changed quickly. The first half of 90' is at least for me mega spectacular. I am definitely "asphalt spectator" and as such I very much prefer McRae or Sainz with gr.A cars over anyone in any gr.B 4WD car to watch.

The first year (1987) of gr.A was a shock: ''narrow'' lancia Delta HF 4x4, underpowered Mazda 323, Audi Quattro,FWD Golf GTI 16V.....

But when I remember Subaru Impreza, Toyota Celica GT 4WD, last Lancia Delta HF Integrale evolution; well then I get a smile on my face...the cars were very very spectacular, very loud, much more sideways than any today's R5/S2000, WRC......the power was almost the same as a modern WRC, but the tyres & the car's width & suspension-all this facts are recipe for a spectacular handling.
And not to forget : the glorious engine sound from Subaru exhaust system ! Every time when I'm in San Marino at Rally Legend those cars are on my favourite list......

[Nornbugger]

The first year (1987) of gr.A was a shock: ''narrow'' lancia Delta HF 4x4, underpowered Mazda 323, Audi Quattro,FWD Golf GTI 16V.....

......

That 1st year also had nice surprises, like Ragnotti in the Renault 11 turbo, I remember watching footage of him from Portugal before heading off to watch the Circuit of Ireland and thinking there's hope for this formula!

[Jarek Z]

Those were the days... :) In Italy there were lots of private tuners who prepared group A8 cars...

That's true. I remember watching TV reports from Italian championship in the nineties. I think it was the most exciting national championship in the world. I remember all those great cars like Subaru Impreza 555, Toyota Celica GT-Four, Ford Escort RS Cosworth, Lancia Delta Integrale... Plus all those great drivers like Aghini, Dallavilla, Cunico, Liatti, Longhi, Andreucci, Travaglia, etc... There were 10-20 top group A cars on almost each round and those cars were super spectacular! Just have a look at the results of 1997 Piancavallo Rally (European and Italian championship round):
http://ewrc-results.com/final.php?e=7235&t=Rally-Piancavallo-1997

[Jarek Z]

Let's take a trip in time to Piancavallo of 1997...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIQkiL6I6a0

[Barreis]

Price of group A8 escort cosworth prepared in Italy was 300 000DEM (it's 150 000€ today)...

[Mirek]

300 000 DM from 1995 can not be compared with 150 000 Euro in 2015. Inflation etc., times changing. Another thing is currency exchange rates, for example 300 000 DM in 1995 was 5 100 000 CZK but 150 000 Euro in 2015 is 4 050 000 CZK but it's not only the exchange rate, some things cost 5x more today than in 1995, some not, salaries are completely different. It's quite difficult to make some meaningful comparison.

[Barreis]

That's true. But then again I knew then if I sell my house I could buy group A8 escort cosworth. Now I should sell 2 or 3 houses to buy WRC car...

[jonkka]

But to buy a house then, you would have to have sold ten apples. To buy a house now, you have to sell a million apples, if anyone is buying. Question is, to invest into apples, property or... rally cars? Unless your apple is a Apple.

So do not ask what something cost yesterday but what something will cost tomorrow.

[OldF]

Imo the price of a WRC car and group A car can’t be compared even if they both would be manufactured today. Building a WRC car starts practically from scratch whereas building a group A car from a base car that’s already “half finished”. The manufacturer could allocate part of the development costs between 5000 cars and from the beginning of 1993 between 2500 cars (http://www.juwra.com/rule_change_summary.html).

I didn’t find any international currency converter for “historic” currencies so I used a domestic one.
http://apps.rahamuseo.fi/rahanarvolaskin#FIN

I choose year 1995 because by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Escort_RS_Cosworth the Escort was used in rallies during 1993-1998. In 1995 300 000 Dem was 914 100 FIM. Converting 914 100 to today’s value give 214 400 €. This is not of course the absolute truth because inflation varies in different countries.

[Mirek]

The manufacturer could allocate part of the development costs between 5000 cars and from the beginning of 1993 between 2500 cars

What many people refuse to see is that exactly this is why gr.A ended. Creation of the stock series is something what costs multiply more than running a dedicated WRC program separated from stock production.

[Rally Power]

Those were the days... :) In Italy there were lots of private tuners who prepared group A8 cars...

In Italy and all over Europe!

Perhaps more important than to know how much a top Gr.A would cost today is to remind that in GrA days almost every manu homologated their cars and enable private tuners to develop them. It was a easy way to make the sport more accessible for drivers and teams. From the cheap N1 to the expensive A8, everyone could get a rally car from local tuners. Even if it was hard to have them with the same competitive level from those built in manus official tuners, it didn't really matter because localy prepared cars were much easier to get and cheaper to buy.

With the current limited homologation system that FIA uses with Gr.R, providing manus official tuners a sort of monopoly, the range of rally cars dropped dramaticaly and their cost raised hugely. The number of homologated cars in R1, R2 and R3 it's a clear sign that the sport lost some of the amateur driver friendly character that Gr.A/N represented and that manus rally interest it's mainly focused in top R5 and WRC expensive classes.

[Rally Power]

OK for once I can say "I know! I know!" because I was deep involved in this era..

Yes there was a "prikaz" issued from that ol nazi-lover Jean-Marie Balestre when he suddenly announced "No more Group B from end of 1986 season" I did in fact compete as driver in that very last Group B WRC event..and had a chance to talk to a lot of the engineers, mechanics and journalists including good ol Martin Holmes..


Janvanvupa, you really got to open your rally memories book! Entering one of the greatest world rallies at the end of the most iconic rally era should be shared with all of us with full details!

Btw, thanks to Joaquim Santos, our national rally hero, the Cossie, as the Escort, is still a rally legend in Portugal!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k3pqttCAr4
(Santos Ford cars were prepared by iconic portuguese Diabolique team, owened by his co-driver Miguel Oliveira)

[RAS007]

That's true. I remember watching TV reports from Italian championship in the nineties. I think it was the most exciting national championship in the world. I remember all those great cars like Subaru Impreza 555, Toyota Celica GT-Four, Ford Escort RS Cosworth, Lancia Delta Integrale... Plus all those great drivers like Aghini, Dallavilla, Cunico, Liatti, Longhi, Andreucci, Travaglia, etc... There were 10-20 top group A cars on almost each round and those cars were super spectacular! Just have a look at the results of 1997 Piancavallo Rally (European and Italian championship round):
http://ewrc-results.com/final.php?e=7235&t=Rally-Piancavallo-1997

Man alive! Those were the days indeed. Where did it all go wrong?

[janvanvurpa]

The first year (1987) of gr.A was a shock: ''narrow'' lancia Delta HF 4x4, underpowered Mazda 323, Audi Quattro,FWD Golf GTI 16V.....

But when I remember Subaru Impreza, Toyota Celica GT 4WD, last Lancia Delta HF Integrale evolution; well then I get a smile on my face...the cars were very very spectacular, very loud, much more sideways than any today's R5/S2000, WRC......the power was almost the same as a modern WRC, but the tyres & the car's width & suspension-all this facts are recipe for a spectacular handling.
And not to forget : the glorious engine sound from Subaru exhaust system ! Every time when I'm in San Marino at Rally Legend those cars are on my favourite list......

Ahhh yes! Maybe the joke gets lost except in Engleski but people used to say those Group A Legacy sounded like a big farting elephant....and since I am the un-official "bestower of names" in America I christened Legacy to " Le Gassy" and now even some guys who still rally them adopt that themselves..

It is kind of interesting to look back and see how 1 rules change can make so much downstream effect...I talked with mechanics and several guy who ran early Lancia and I know from personal experience rebuilding Mazda 323 box and those guys said "Yeah the Lancia goes so good but if one thing happens in the gearbox, just put it on the trailer, you're going home" (This is in contrast from those same guys recent experience in such wonderful cars as the Best Car in All Human History the Group 4 Escort where good guys could swap out a broken gearbox in 9-12 minutes)...The Japanese simple had nothing that would last a whole Leg, much less a whole rally---remember rallies used to be 2 or even 3 times more SS km..
That one rule "One additional heavy duty gearbox may be homologated" and suddenly Toyota, Mitsubishi, and Subaru (and maybe Mazda and for sure Opel for the great Kadett GSI) find their way to Woking in Surrey and a few million later X-trac has given them a box that lasts AND can be swapped in in service...and now suddenly the heat in the SS is turned way up..
One simple rule.

One thing leads to another...

[janvanvurpa]

Man alive! Those were the days indeed. Where did it all go wrong?

Ford and somebody else, I think Toyota, were having difficulty with the 5000 units in one year rule.
Mitsubishi and Subaru had no problem selling as many Evos and Impreza STI as the could make on the Japanese, Hong Kong and Singapore markets and in those days of relatively crude differentials front center and rear, their cars worked, But Toyota was having more and more problems with their cars after the "GT4" or ST 165....The ST185 didn't work as well and the ST205 was really a problem (I say the cars got too swoopy, too stylish and long nose made the EAT front tires) and Ford was stuck with Escort Cosworth which was TONS better on tarmac than the exact same powerplant in the Sierra and Sapphire, but it was still SUPPOSEDLY or ALLEGEDLY "getting outdated"--especially in the entire rear subframe with trailing arms) and the fact that the basic Sierra was ending production and we all know the Escort Cosworth is just a shortened Sierra floor with modded Escort bits tacked on..So they had nothing suitable on the horison to replace Escort Cos..
I head Toyota and Ford worked a trade with Subaru to first step lower minimum numbers to 2500 and then to get a waiver for "World Rally Car Escort" and allow Toyota to make the World Rally Car Corolla...and Subaru went along...

And there was the crack that allowed the thin edge to get hammered in which led to the debacle of the space satellite car we have now which have zero connection to reality.

[jonkka]

Ford and somebody else, I think Toyota, were having difficulty with the 5000 units in one year rule.
Mitsubishi and Subaru had no problem selling as many Evos and Impreza STI as the could make


Please, do not confuse "manufacture" and "sell". Regulations required manufacturer to build required amount of cars, not to sell them. Understandably, most manufacturers wanted to sell those to get money back but it was not requirement for homologation purposes.

Why GrA was abandoned in favour WRCar is open to debate but in my humble opinion it was mainly done to open a LEVEL playing field for smaller manufacturers too (look at likes who entered WRC after WRCar concept was introduced, eg. Skoda, Seat, Suzuki, maybe Mini but that's another story). These never sold enough cars or made enough money from them to justify building a special to form GrA rally car base. For them, WRCar rules was the way to go.

[Mirek]

I thought it was mainly Peugeot asking for WRC regulation but also Ford as Jan wrote. The gr.A became too expensive for manufacturers and what is also important very inflexible. You can do quickly some modifications on WRC car but the same process takes many months if not years when You need to go through stock production. My job is stupid interior controls but even with something like airco controls You need around two or three years to get a new product into production. The process is hugely complex and slow and it becomes even more slow and complex when You need to change something what already is in production.

This came only with time and that's why it's an issue which didn't exist in such a scale in the past. The development of production methods towards maximum efficiency escalated hugely in 1990' with the advance in computers and robotics.

I also think that the main problem for new manufacturers was not the scale of required production (although it definitely was a big problem as it was extremely expensive) but the know-how they simply didn't have. For making a WRC they could use specialized companies for development and even low-scale production of parts while for stock production it's something completely different. For example at the start of WRC program Škoda paid Prodrive to give them something to start with as in five years they jumped from super simple F2 Favorit with carburettor engine to full-active WRC.

[janvanvurpa]

I thought it was mainly Peugeot asking for WRC regulation but also Ford as Jan wrote. The gr.A became too expensive for manufacturers and what is also important very inflexible. You can do quickly some modifications on WRC car but the same process takes many months if not years when You need to go through stock production. My job is stupid interior controls but even with something like airco controls You need around two or three years to get a new product into production. The process is hugely complex and slow and it becomes even more slow and complex when You need to change something what already is in production.

This came only with time and that's why it's an issue which didn't exist in such a scale in the past. The development of production methods towards maximum efficiency escalated hugely in 1990' with the advance in computers and robotics.

I also think that the main problem for new manufacturers was not the scale of required production (although it definitely was a big problem as it was extremely expensive) but the know-how they simply didn't have. For making a WRC they could use specialized companies for development and even low-scale production of parts while for stock production it's something completely different. For example at the start of WRC program Škoda paid Prodrive to give them something to start with as in five years they jumped from super simple F2 Favorit with carburettor engine to full-active WRC.


Yeah, good points...For example for was using YBB/YBG Cossie which the block began life as ordinary old T88 2,0 Pinto...Old 2wd car began life with very very short rods--relative to stroke..The rods were 128.52mm center to ceter..That was +2mm from the old Pinto. Piston was down 2mm from Pinto's 41,6mm..OK some improvement...

And POFF! they were locked in from the 3 door until they homologated the "World Rally Car" on 1 Jan 1997. And what do you see on 1 Jan 97? Something I had been doing forever (at least since 1987) on Fords and Opel's old CIH Manta and Ascona motors and now hundreds of sets for Volvos: LONGER RODs..
Ford had I think it was +10mm on rods so the piston was, from center of pin to top barely 30mm---and since I do this alll the time
And if fact just did some 139mm rods for an Escort MkII in Sweden AND! a Saab 99 in the same team (stock was 134mm he got 144mm so same as we talking above)---they save at least 300-330 grams of piston weight...and I am telling you to get rid of reciprocation weight of piston is all round a nice thing....
In addition there is less angle on the rod and that equals more power into the crank, and less side thrust pushing the pisston into the wall of the cylinder..

10 years they were locked in...

I undersatnd the "outsourcing" of the development work, too. Mainline production is mainline..

And yeah opened up development for --at the beginnink--lots of OEMs...

But by NOT limiting how crazy the could go it became these space-ships and unlimited in a way---and that drove OFF nearly everybody but 1-2 manufacturers.

Like everything in life finding the balance between freedom and rules is the hard thing...

I also find the requirement that a brake bell MUST have some MFG PN stamped or etched in or you are thrown out a serious outrage.. I make those, I know what material and machine time costs....make it required that you buy from Malcolm and it costs 3 times as much--and he certainly can make them more rationally than I can in series of 20...Why 3 times more valuta?

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

For example at the start of WRC program Škoda paid Prodrive to give them something to start with as in five years they jumped from super simple F2 Favorit with carburettor engine to full-active WRC.
I never know that..(I'm only know Proton Putra WRC which was Impreza with Mirage Asti face)

[Mirek]

It's not secret anymore. Mr. Janeba, Škoda Motorsport boss in that time, said that Prodrive was helping them a lot with transmission development. He said that Richards needed more manufacturers in WRC and was willing to help them at the start.

[janvanvurpa]

It's not secret anymore. Mr. Janeba, Škoda Motorsport boss in that time, said that Prodrive was helping them a lot with transmission development. He said that Richards needed more manufacturers in WRC and was willing to help them at the start.

That's Pavel Janeba right? What happened to him after the VW anschluss?

[Rally Power]

Ford and somebody else, I think Toyota, were having difficulty with the 5000 units in one year rule.

As I remember it wasn't Toyota. Their plan was to comeback with or without Gr.A regs; they just wanted to clean their face after the '95 restrictor scandal. When WRC rules were sorting they've accepted them but demand the 25º tilt tolerance to fit the Celica engine under Corolla's bonnet.

There's no doubt that European manus didn’t have industrial flexibility to make new 2.500 cars every time evolutions were needed, but Japanese manus had no problem, as they easily sell hi tuned factory cars at their home market (more than 50.000 units of the three GT4 generations were made and even the ST205 was kept into production till the end of 1999).

Lancia pull out was a big nail in Gr. A coffin (Fiat sadly choose Alfa DTM program instead) and Ford, staying as the only non Jap manu in WRC, pushed FIA to ease up homologations requirements (alongside other Euro manus eager to get into WRC).

At that time the 2wd Kit Cars were already having more liberal regs, that inspired the launch of the new special 4wd rally car category (the first time FIA mentioned WRC concept they’ve call it Super Kit Car).

From the beginning it was pretty clear that WRC Cars were beyond reach for private teams and drivers, but it’s fair to say that WRC Car era generate some exciting WRC seasons, before it was resumed to the Citro/Ford battle and Loeb’s overwhelming domination.

[OldF]

The information about restrictor sizes I posted earlier was wrong (http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/turbo_restrictors.html). Sorry for that.

1990: 40 mm
1992: Group A 38 mm and group N 36 mm
1995: Group A 34 mm and group N 32 mm

It was expected that the diameter would be reduced by 2 mm (1995) but FIA decided otherwise.
1995 was also the first year for kit cars.

[OldF]

Few power figures from the past (1993).

https://books.google.fi/books?id=TVZuCAAAQBAJ&pg=PT80&dq=%22this+was+the%22+355bhp+365bhp+385bhp&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3q-iklNfKAhWBoiwKHcUMDjwQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=%22this%20was%20the%22%20355bhp%20365bhp%20385bh p&f=false

[lewalcindor]

Few power figures from the past (1993).

https://books.google.fi/books?id=TVZuCAAAQBAJ&pg=PT80&dq=%22this+was+the%22+355bhp+365bhp+385bhp&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3q-iklNfKAhWBoiwKHcUMDjwQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=%22this%20was%20the%22%20355bhp%20365bhp%20385bh p&f=false

I have that book. Very fascinating read, though author Graham Robson had a very sharp bias against Juha Kankunnen, while at the same time, showered Carlos Sainz with praise.