WRC Engines

[LouKayne]

Please post and discuss any information you have about WRC engines. Dyno sheets, specs, pictures, videos, sound clips, etc.

[janvanvurpa]

Please post and discuss any information you have about WRC engines. Dyno sheets, specs, pictures, videos, sound clips, etc.

Why don't you start by copying and pasting the relevant sections of the FIA rule book...

An awful lot of why they are what they are is all right in those regs.
IE the limitations...

[LouKayne]

Why don't you start by copying and pasting the relevant sections of the FIA rule book...

An awful lot of why they are what they are is all right in those regs.
IE the limitations...


So your trying to tell me every WRC engine is singly describe by one set of rule (i.e. Limitations). Every manufacture has their own take on the engine regulations that why you see VW dominating because their engine is much strong than the rest. The formula one has limitations like the WRC and I don't see Renault and Mercedes with the same engines, likewise with Citroen, M-Sport, VW, Etc. The 2007 Subaru WRC 2.0L boxer looks, sounds and performs just like the Citroen C4 WRC 2.0L I4...... I don't think so.

[N.O.T]

so you basically want an engineer from the teams to give you some classified information about their engines...

hmmmmm....

[LouKayne]

No, I'm sure theirs lots of older WRC cars that have been bought by people like you and me (privateers) and they might be on this forum. Or a least someone on the forum might know someone in this position and have access to some info.

Buying a WRC isn't that hard but you just need money. http://www.rallycarsforsale.net

[N.O.T]

No, I'm sure theirs lots of older WRC cars that have been bought by people like you and me (privateers) and they might be on this forum. Or a least someone on the forum might know someone in this position and have access to some info.

Buying a WRC isn't that hard but you just need money. http://www.rallycarsforsale.net

even if you buy a wrc, i doubt any engine mechanic would share ECU info publicly...

[LouKayne]

even if you buy a wrc, i doubt any engine mechanic would share ECU info publicly...

Are you and engine mechanic that owns or works on a old world rally car?

[Mirek]

The old cars are not so secret anymore. The problem often is that with different dyno owners you sometimes get different results so it might not be fully comparable one to another. Last 2007 Fabia WRC had some 340 Hp at 5500 rpm and 640 Nm approximately at 2500 rpm. Especially torque-wise the 20V was already an obsolete engine and I believe the best were already around 750 Nm, later definitely over 800 Nm. 2002 Octavia WRC had some 320 Hp at 5500 and around 600 Nm around 3000 rpm. I was once told that late Corolla WRC had 325 Hp and 610 Nm.

[RAS007]

So your trying to tell me every WRC engine is singly describe by one set of rule (i.e. Limitations). Every manufacture has their own take on the engine regulations that why you see VW dominating because their engine is much strong than the rest. The formula one has limitations like the WRC and I don't see Renault and Mercedes with the same engines, likewise with Citroen, M-Sport, VW, Etc. The 2007 Subaru WRC 2.0L boxer looks, sounds and performs just like the Citroen C4 WRC 2.0L I4...... I don't think so.

It appears that you are new here. If you want to get information from this board, you might try a less confrontational approach. That, and your original request is a little vague, to say the least.

[LouKayne]

It appears that you are new here. If you want to get information from this board, you might try a less confrontational approach. That, and your original request is a little vague, to say the least.

I just hate seeing people being naysayers on forums but sorry about coming off confrontational and yes, vague because I wanted to make it a general forum for anyone with any information to share if they would like.

[Muchonen]

I just hate seeing people being naysayers on forums but sorry about coming off confrontational and yes, vague because I wanted to make it a general forum for anyone with any information to share if they would like.


But to be honest FIA regulations is the point where u have to start if u want to make such a tread. Cause I can tell u that engine has to be 1.6 with turbo. Sure that is some information but I doubt if u wanted that kind of stuff. Make a solid base on which we can discuss and add some things we know. And being polite may be helpful otherwise u will became next N.O.T...

[Mirek]

I just hate seeing people being naysayers on forums but sorry about coming off confrontational and yes, vague because I wanted to make it a general forum for anyone with any information to share if they would like.

A lot of people here on the forum actually are real drivers, co-drivers, mechanics, engineers from teams, rally organizers etc. but while many have access to the information they usually can't share it public for obvious reasons.

[janvanvurpa]

Are you and engine mechanic that owns or works on a old world rally car?

No he's an angry Greek guy living in England who works as a lab assistant probably in some dank basement..
He thinks he is a Greek god.
The truth is he is NOThing, never done anything but University and typing..and insulting every single person in the world constantly except Loeb.

Who are you, got a real name..?

Did you ever hear of Homologation and Homologation papers? EVERYTHING they use must be in the Homologation papers..

EVERYTHING has dimensions, lengths sizes, tooth counts in the gearbox.
All in the forms.

I'm going to guess you didn't look...
You ought to..
Safe to say that every detail that has a limit is on the limit.

Only thing not is the engine mapping in the ECU...

[janvanvurpa]

So your trying to tell me every WRC engine is singly describe by one set of rule (i.e. Limitations). Every manufacture has their own take on the engine regulations that why you see VW dominating because their engine is much strong than the rest. The formula one has limitations like the WRC and I don't see Renault and Mercedes with the same engines, likewise with Citroen, M-Sport, VW, Etc. The 2007 Subaru WRC 2.0L boxer looks, sounds and performs just like the Citroen C4 WRC 2.0L I4...... I don't think so.

So much wrong....You evidently are new to this sport and obviously don't understand what different things inside the engines mean in practice...
The 07 Subaru does not sound and perform just like all the other engines..
The bore on that was 92mm, virtually all the others were 84 or 85mm or max (Evo 10) 86mm..
This make a difference in the max possible dynamic compression ratio and max boost for a given fuel..
So limiting is this bore size thing that the Duratec Fords in the Fock-us which stock was 87.5mm was reduced down to 85mm..and stroke changed to 89 to compensate..
Has to do with flame front propagation and distance to complete a burn..
It is one reason why Subies began to be less effective...and the proof of the pudding is the new Subie/Toyota BRZ thing they changed bore down to 86mm and stroke 86mm..
They wouldn't have changed it just because they were bored, they changed it because fuel only burns so fast and they wanted more complete combustion..

So not to be too mean, often it doesn't matter what we "think" if the reality of what 'is" is different..

The VW engine is not "much stronger" if you do the math and see the difference expressed in %..

The differences in SS times to other works cars is oten less than 0,15%...That cannot seriously be considered "much stronger" or faster...


Hard to discuss using only opinions and not measuring anything or comparing dimensions, and numbers...

[janvanvurpa]

I just hate seeing people being naysayers on forums but sorry about coming off confrontational and yes, vague because I wanted to make it a general forum for anyone with any information to share if they would like.


Nobody so far, aside from the perma-Troll who is NOT important, has said anything negative..
I suggested you copy and paste the engine rules set so that reference could be made to those rules and not just throwing around gut feelings from watching You-tube..

What did you say your name was? You rally up there? What car and class? I have a lot of friends and customers using my stuff up in Canada.

[stefanvv]

there is some good info about the engines in "Rally cars tech stuff" or something like that thread

[rayh_mx]

http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?31551-Rally-Cars-tech-stuff

[LouKayne]

So much wrong....You evidently are new to this sport and obviously don't understand what different things inside the engines mean in practice...
The 07 Subaru does not sound and perform just like all the other engines..
The bore on that was 92mm, virtually all the others were 84 or 85mm or max (Evo 10) 86mm..
This make a difference in the max possible dynamic compression ratio and max boost for a given fuel..
So limiting is this bore size thing that the Duratec Fords in the Fock-us which stock was 87.5mm was reduced down to 85mm..and stroke changed to 89 to compensate..
Has to do with flame front propagation and distance to complete a burn..
It is one reason why Subies began to be less effective...and the proof of the pudding is the new Subie/Toyota BRZ thing they changed bore down to 86mm and stroke 86mm..
They wouldn't have changed it just because they were bored, they changed it because fuel only burns so fast and they wanted more complete combustion..

So not to be too mean, often it doesn't matter what we "think" if the reality of what 'is" is different..

The VW engine is not "much stronger" if you do the math and see the difference expressed in %..

The differences in SS times to other works cars is oten less than 0,15%...That cannot seriously be considered "much stronger" or faster...


Hard to discuss using only opinions and not measuring anything or comparing dimensions, and numbers...

If you actually re read what I wrote I didn't say they were they same. I said I don't think so. The person I was responding to was saying that every WRC engine is the exact same and I was saying the contrary.

[janvanvurpa]

If you actually re read what I wrote I didn't say they were they same. I said I don't think so. The person I was responding to was saying that every WRC engine is the exact same and I was saying the contrary.


Well Post no3 is you responding to me where you say

So your trying to tell me every WRC engine is singly describe by one set of rule (i.e. Limitations). Every manufacture has their own take on the engine regulations that why you see VW dominating because their engine is much strong than the rest. The formula one has limitations like the WRC and I don't see Renault and Mercedes with the same engines, likewise with Citroen, M-Sport, VW, Etc. The 2007 Subaru WRC 2.0L boxer looks, sounds and performs just like the Citroen C4 WRC 2.0L I4...... I don't think so

Helps when you click "quote" when replying..

And nobody here "was saying every WRC engine is the same" but if they were so crazy "saying the contrary' without numbers, dimensions, sizes etc is just as pointless.


And maybe I mis-read what you're lat line said--or implied
So your trying to tell me every WRC engine is singly describe by one set of rule (i.e. Limitations).

Not at all.. It seems you are not really interested in any of the details like bore, stroke rod length valve sizes cam timing and duration--which only tells half the story or the turbo turbine wheel and compressor wheel dimensions, the pressure ratios in the turbos.....

Or is it that you want others to supply all that data??

And for some reason you still haven't said what your name is and what class you do up in Canada...
Is there some reason for that? The refusal is kind of like turning your back on somebody that you began a discussion with... it's mildly put---odd.

[LouKayne]

Well Post no3 is you responding to me where you say


Helps when you click "quote" when replying..

And nobody here "was saying every WRC engine is the same" but if they were so crazy "saying the contrary' without numbers, dimensions, sizes etc is just as pointless.


And maybe I mis-read what you're lat line said--or implied

Not at all.. It seems you are not really interested in any of the details like bore, stroke rod length valve sizes cam timing and duration--which only tells half the story or the turbo turbine wheel and compressor wheel dimensions, the pressure ratios in the turbos.....

Or is it that you want others to supply all that data??

And for some reason you still haven't said what your name is and what class you do up in Canada...
Is there some reason for that? The refusal is kind of like turning your back on somebody that you began a discussion with... it's mildly put---odd.

My name is Matt Carew and I do not race in Canada. I am a Mechanical Engineering student in my 4th year and the only rallying experience I have is using my brother-in-law's uncle's rally cars. I am a massive rally enthusiast and hope to start racing after I finish school and get some money.

I would like to compare all the spec/dimension of the engine and its components but I was having trouble finding the information so I thought their would be some experts on here or some people who could put me in the right direction.

I am merely trying to gain some knowledge on these specific engines to help with my thesis that I might write on a aspect of World Rally Cars.

[janvanvurpa]

My name is Matt Carew and I do not race in Canada. I am a Mechanical Engineering student in my 4th year and the only rallying experience I have is using my brother-in-law's uncle's rally cars. I am a massive rally enthusiast and hope to start racing after I finish school and get some money.

I would like to compare all the spec/dimension of the engine and its components but I was having trouble finding the information so I thought their would be some experts on here or some people who could put me in the right direction.

I am merely trying to gain some knowledge on these specific engines to help with my thesis that I might write on a aspect of World Rally Cars.

Would have been so much better if you'd said all that in the first place.

So. Now once again I suggest you go to find the rules and look at limitations and limits...
Everybody will be at the limits..

Thing is though in the end, it is not the motor which is decisive...The whole package of the team the designers , the mechanics, co-driver,,,EVERYTHING..

[Zeakiwi]

I would like to compare all the spec/dimension of the engine and its components but I was having trouble finding the information so I thought their would be some experts on here or some people who could put me in the right direction.

I am merely trying to gain some knowledge on these specific engines to help with my thesis that I might write on a aspect of World Rally Cars.

Going on past experience most people usually learn more about things they can get their own hands on or at least work with or be associated with people who are working on a particular item, they can put questions to.
Do you have local shops working on Subaru or Mitsubishi engines or Nissan engines? A Subaru ej20 can run 600hp in quite long distance events (more stage mileage than a wrc event) https://youtu.be/FubiykFyW3w (the competitors are supposed to keep below 220km/h, acceleration is ok too)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Sirius_engine (4g63t)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_4B1_engine (4b11t)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_EJ_engine
http://wardsauto.com/wards-10-best-engines/2015-winner-subaru-20l-turbocharged-dohc-h-4

[LouKayne]

Going on past experience most people usually learn more about things they can get their own hands on or at least work with or be associated with people who are working on a particular item, they can put questions to.
Do you have local shops working on Subaru or Mitsubishi engines or Nissan engines? A Subaru ej20 can run 600hp in quite long distance events (more stage mileage than a wrc event) https://youtu.be/FubiykFyW3w (the competitors are supposed to keep below 220km/h, acceleration is ok too)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Sirius_engine (4g63t)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_4B1_engine (4b11t)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_EJ_engine
http://wardsauto.com/wards-10-best-engines/2015-winner-subaru-20l-turbocharged-dohc-h-4

I was referring to World Rally Car engines but thanks for the insight tho.

[janvanvurpa]

Well have you searched and found anything?
Aside from bore and stroke on VW, and Ford being all more or less the same 83 x 73.9 and and Citroen 82 x 75.5 which took 0,2 sek to find..

You don't seem very interested in discussion of this subject...which is odd cause you started the thread.. and it is usually hard to have discussion with one person only...

[LouKayne]

Well have you searched and found anything?
Aside from bore and stroke on VW, and Ford being all more or less the same 83 x 73.9 and and Citroen 82 x 75.5 which took 0,2 sek to find..

You don't seem very interested in discussion of this subject...which is odd cause you started the thread.. and it is usually hard to have discussion with one person only...

Yes I have found that information from the teams/WRC site, but I've just been really busy with some school things. Also I have found a site with pretty much all specs of the cars from -2010.

http://www.tech-racingcars.eu/rally-cars

Why do you think Citroen have gone with a different bore/stroke configuration? Their torque specs seem different from the other cars as they top out at 350Nm but at a lower rpm (3250rpm), where as the other cars are in the range of 400-450Nm @ 4000-5000rpm.

[makinen_fan]

A pdf from the Race Engine Technology magazine (Jan 2012) which has a 10 page article on the Fiesta WRC engine. I remember when I read it back then, it is quite technical

http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1wvd5/RaceEngineTechnology/resources/59.htm

[LouKayne]

A pdf from the Race Engine Technology magazine (Jan 2012) which has a 10 page article on the Fiesta WRC engine. I remember when I read it back then, it is quite technical

http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1wvd5/RaceEngineTechnology/resources/59.htm

Perfect article Makinen!

[Zeakiwi]

Can you get these on an 'interloan'?
https://www.highpowermedia.com/p/1184/rally_race_technology_-_volumes_1_2amp_3

[Mirek]

Yes I have found that information from the teams/WRC site, but I've just been really busy with some school things. Also I have found a site with pretty much all specs of the cars from -2010.

http://www.tech-racingcars.eu/rally-cars

Why do you think Citroen have gone with a different bore/stroke configuration? Their torque specs seem different from the other cars as they top out at 350Nm but at a lower rpm (3250rpm), where as the other cars are in the range of 400-450Nm @ 4000-5000rpm.

One thing for start. Never ever trust in official numbers in motorsport. Especially in rallying there is a long history of showing bullshit in PR materials.

350 Nm @ 3000 rpm is realistic for DS3 R3T which uses different engine than WRC and also smaller size of restrictor. R3T uses modified stock EP6CDT engine with long stroke configuration 77 x 85,8 mm.

[LouKayne]

They might not be exact but I'm sure its not wildly off.

[Mirek]

Yes, it is. A lot of times.

For example the Focus WRC 08 - the official numbers were 300 Hp @ 6000 rpm and 550 Nm @ 4000 rpm. Such values are somewhat comparable with gr. N Evo with 33 mm restrictor. More realistic estimation would be something like 850 Nm @ 2500 rpm and 370 Hp @ 6000 rpm (it's only estimation but definitely closer to the reality than the official numbers).

The very first Fabia WRC in summer 2003 had 300 Hp @ 5500 rpm and 550 Nm @ 3500 rpm. The engine was a complete disaster. In 0-200 km/h measurement the car was 2 seconds slower than late Octavia WRC (cca 320-330 Hp and 600 Nm). They had to change electronics and some other things to make it better. Why I say that? Because the values are nearly same with the official figures for Focus WRC 08. With such values M-Sport would never win anything as those were bad even for the time ten years before.

[janvanvurpa]

They might not be exact but I'm sure its not wildly off.

Matt, look at that line as if somebody else wrote it and look what that which is written implies...

You have said who you are, a student, and not a participant, mechanic, engineer, team volunteer, nuthin...and you have asked for information---which means you don't hvae info, which means you don't know..
Nothing here nor there about not knowing. (I know some stuff abouth the negines but it is not any concern to me because that is not what ANYBODY active or potentially active in USA or Canada is using, so a casual interest only---and I build serious engines)

But look...Somebody IN the business fairly deeply says "don't believe everything you read"

And you say "they may not be exact" which is OK, repeating what others have told you

"but I sure...."

Matt, how can you say you are sure of anything?

That is illogical. And understanding which follows from illogic rarely is sound..

I mean you're a student...students are not suppoed to be "sure' of anything---or they wouldn't need to be in colleges or University to get taught..

How can you be sure they're not wildly off?

[LouKayne]

Jon, settle down haha no need to get heated over a simple statement. I can't be sure of anything but I guess I really shouldn't of said I'm sure but why would they say an engine has 300Nm less torque than it really has. Yes maybe a 100Nm off but 300Nm?

[Rallyper]

Jon, settle down haha no need to get heated over a simple statement. I can't be sure of anything but I guess I really shouldn't of said I'm sure but why would they say an engine has 300Nm less torque than it really has. Yes maybe a 100Nm off but 300Nm?

You didn´t listen, did you. "They" can say anything, everything and the only truth is the dynonumbers. Which is held totally in secret from guys like you and me.

[LouKayne]

I know they can do what they want just 300Nm seems crazy but who am I to say right you guys are the experts. I just got in contact with an ex M-Sport engineer and he's going to help me with some information for my project. Ill share as much as I can with you guys.

[janvanvurpa]

I know they can do what they want just 300Nm seems crazy but who am I to say right you guys are the experts. I just got in contact with an ex M-Sport engineer and he's going to help me with some information for my project. Ill share as much as I can with you guys.

So you have a project... what project?

[LouKayne]

So you have a project... what project?

Yes its my final year thesis project. I haven't narrowed it completely down but it will be something to do with World Rally Cars.

[Mirek]

Jon, settle down haha no need to get heated over a simple statement. I can't be sure of anything but I guess I really shouldn't of said I'm sure but why would they say an engine has 300Nm less torque than it really has. Yes maybe a 100Nm off but 300Nm?

The reason why they write unreal values is that 99% of people who read them have no clue and either simply believe or don't care. That's how 21st century world works... sadly.

Seriously, how many people know what the torque really means? I mean power is quite understandable but torque isn't an easy thing to understand especially if discussed engines are of different conception.

[janvanvurpa]

Jon, settle down haha no need to get heated over a simple statement. I can't be sure of anything but I guess I really shouldn't of said I'm sure but why would they say an engine has 300Nm less torque than it really has. Yes maybe a 100Nm off but 300Nm?

Kid you say a lot of very odd things.. why in the world would you presume I'm "heated" about anything?

Nothing here to get heated about...not to be mean but don't you suppose that if a guy has been deeply invilved in a sport for 30 years that he has encountered dozens and dozens of noob-u-lar guys who have all kinds of "brilliant" ideas? After a while one just gets kinda blasé about guys with "big ideas" when you see 30-40% of guys who say they are "into" or "interested" in things way over their skills and budgets never finish projects.. hell even guys trying to build rudimentary rally projects have a very high % who never finsih their projects...
Who can get "heated " over that?

I am just trying to help you think about how you are thinking...Because if you are drawing wrong inferences then that means there's little point in trying to find details of things---if the info is going to be ignored or misunderstood.

So now...days later, now you say what you could have siad at the beginning, something like "I have a project to do ________________________ and I thought "maybe I should find out what the current WRC engines are like so that I can ______________________ and _______________ and then I'd be closer to my goal"

[janvanvurpa]

You didn´t listen, did you. "They" can say anything, everything and the only truth is the dynonumbers. Which is held totally in secret from guys like you and me.


And further, the dyno numbers they get are abstract or idealt and only say how the engine works and nothing about how the car might go....I usually have to remind newbs that we don't drive flow benches or drive dynos, we drive whole CARS...

And in rally, especially on unpredictable surfaces...gravel and snow, it is how the whole car actually works which is the most interesting.....so things like gear ratios, final drive, suspension design and travel, brakes that play just as much roll as the engine in how the car does...

[Rallyper]

And further, the dyno numbers they get are abstract or idealt and only say how the engine works and nothing about how the car might go....I usually have to remind newbs that we don't drive flow benches or drive dynos, we drive whole CARS...

And in rally, especially on unpredictable surfaces...gravel and snow, it is how the whole car actually works which is the most interesting.....so things like gear ratios, final drive, suspension design and travel, brakes that play just as much roll as the engine in how the car does...

That´s why I sometimes, while having passed the 50´s myself, thinking of what a good car, let´s say Opel Astra GSI with modest engine just maybe different exhaust adn camshafts, would perform having the best suspension and rollbar (bodyshell stifness) and how that should perform in local DM-rallies? Should I add, I often think rallying in winterconditions...

[LouKayne]

I presume you were getting heated because not many people would right so much because I said the word "sure" but if you were trying to help thank you just didn't see it as that at first. And yes I know the whole at package is the key to winning and no one is saying it's just an engine going down the stage. Also I know you drive full cars and I have driven a couple rally cars too just non competitively, but probably not a 1/30th of what you have driven though.

Yes I did donk the beginning of the forum but it's my first thread and forum.

Jon you are an expert by the sounds of it so my ears are open.

[LouKayne]

And jon I would classify myself as a semi noob. I know a bit but not enough